Latest / THE DAILY BRIEF / Kennedy Center caught up in Trump's 'ego-driven desire to burnish his reputation

Transcript

Kennedy Center caught up in Trump's 'ego-driven desire to burnish his reputation · THE DAILY BRIEF

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Former prosecutor Tim Heafey is here with me to start
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: the hour. He was the lead investigator on the January
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: 6th committee. Tim, thanks for being here in person.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: My pleasure, Peter. Thanks for having me.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: There's a lot that we're juggling right now, but let's
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: just put this under one big umbrella, right? The perception
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: of corruption starts this vicious cycle. We went through it.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Voters lose faith in government. Participation drops. Officials are not
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: held accountable. Wrongdoing goes unpunished. How deep are we in
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: this cycle right now?
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: We are tremendously deep and it's across the board, Peter.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: It isn't just a problem on the left or a
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: problem on the right. It's a problem that crosses socioeconomic divides,
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: partisan divides. A lot of Americans do not have faith
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: in our institutions, government, media, higher education, even science. We're
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: dealing with a climate in which there's real cynicism everywhere.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: about the efficacy of these institutions on which American society relies.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: And obviously that has real impacts, as you witnessed during
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: January 6th, and we've seen. in the years since. Specifically,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about one of the clips we played.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: It was the attorney general, Todd Blanch. I try to
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: put this in some historical context to remind people. I
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: covered the White House for 14 years, never saw something
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: like this.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Presidents went out of their way not.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: To touch anything associated with the independent justice department. Why
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: is it so problematic for an attorney general to speak
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: in the Rose Garden in front of the Oval Office,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: communicating the message of the president?
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: The ethic of the Department of Justice, regardless of whether
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: it was a Republican or a Democratic administration for generations,
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: has been independence and freedom from political influence. The Justice
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Department has to operate based on facts and law, unaffected
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: by political influence. So when we have the Attorney General
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: of the United States standing at a podium in the
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Rose Garden, taking questions from the press about all manner
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: of things, political things, it eviscerates that independence. It is
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: a very dangerous precedent. It's a norm, not a law.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: It's yet another norm that this administration, that this Justice
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Department is just obliterating.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: If you were, you served as the lead investigator for
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: the January 6th committee, again, to remind folks, you led
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the president's impeachment in effect right now. If you were
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: looking for impeachable offenses right now, where would you start?
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of evidence of corruption, of
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: personal enrichment through the status of the office.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Is that what's most problematic as you look at it
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: from a legal standard right now?
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: In terms of impeachable offenses, I think so.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: But I think the evisceration of these norms have ripple
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: effects on the efficacy of government. And reinforce that cynicism, Peter,
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: that you talked about at the beginning. It's why people say, hey,
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: our government doesn't really work for us. It's people that
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: are trying to enrich themselves, not make our lives better.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: So walk me through this.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: The president is now targeting his former FBI director. Remember,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: he appointed Christopher Wray. Yeah, he stayed under Joe Biden's third.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: But the president, President Trump, in his first term appointed him.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: He's now going after him for how he handled the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: investigation into the first. assassination attempt of President Trump in Butler.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: What does a post like the one that he wrote
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: yesterday describing him as a dirty cop, what does that
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: do to someone, with January 6th as your background, what
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: does that do to someone who may believe everything the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: president says?
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question because what we learned when
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: we interviewed men and women that were at the Capitol
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: was that they take what the president says, Peter, literally
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: and Right. When the president says you've got to fight
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: like hell or you're not going to have a country anymore, people.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Fight like hell. Right. It is not rhetorical to them.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: It is literal. So it's very dangerous for the president
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: of the United States.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Mindful of that impact, to use language that, frankly, is
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: incendiary and inspires people potentially to.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Act of violence.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: And it only takes one rogue actor to respond to
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: that by taking some.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I'm struck by you saying that they take it literally
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: because I remember the criticism that came from Kellyanne Conway
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: and others during the first term when I was there
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: in the White House briefing room and on the lawn
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: each day when she would just push back and say
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: when the president posted something and we would question her,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: she would say, you're just taking this literally. This is
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: a rhetorical you witnessed these individuals, the bad actors, embrace
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: that language in literal terms.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: On January 6th, the president makes an incendiary post about
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Mike Pence. Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: what he should do.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: And then people- With a guillotine out front. People in
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: the crowd start chanting, hang Mike Pence.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Again, there's almost this call and response effect. And that
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: means he has to be incredibly careful with language. And
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: he is just not careful with language. He, to the
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: contrary- says things that are outrageous and taken literally.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: So another example is his recent comments just yesterday about
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court following the mail-in voting ruling right here.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: What impact does that have as it relates to, we
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: had the head of the Postal Workers Union here recently,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: the concern he has for his own postal workers that
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: they could be someone who are targeted. What impact does
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: that have on the postal workers' safety, on the safety
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: of election officials, on the safety of American Supreme Court justices?
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, again, the best way to answer that is to
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: point to what's happened in the past. When the president
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: talked about election workers, when he talked about Ruby Freeman
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: and Shea Moss in Fulton County, called them crazy and partisan,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: they were physically targeted with death threats. Again, this rhetoric
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: has real consequences for anyone who suffers the wrath of
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: the president and is called out in his speech.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Social media posts.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: And we heard from Cash Patel just yesterday during this hour, actually,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: it was a back and forth with Peter Welsh, the
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Vermont senator, where he basically refused to rule out that
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: there would be federal officers, FBI agents sent to polling places.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: What does that politicization, that militarization in effect, they're not
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: the military, I understand, but sending armed officers to polling
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: places due to our ability to appreciate a free and
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: fair election?
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is part of a pattern of trying to
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: to inspire doubt about the integrity of elections.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: This is a myth, Peter.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: This is based on a false assumption that voter fraud
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: is a problem.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: We do elections really, really well in this country.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: States run elections, and they have done a good job
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: of protecting the security of our elections process. So the
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: rhetoric of the president saying the only way I lose
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: is if the Democrats cheat, and the FBI director saying
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: we're going to be on point with agents at the polls,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: it undercuts confidence. And frankly, when it's federal agents or
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: it's military, it makes people potentially stay away.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: It depresses. participation, which seems to be the overall strategy.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: It goes back to the vicious cycle where we started
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: this conversation here. I want to ask you about a
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: couple news headlines right now. The president just a couple
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: of days ago saying that he would give every American
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: adult $ 5, 000 if Republicans maintain control of both the House
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: and Senate. Is that corruption or is that just good politics?
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: I think it's neither.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: And it's probably not corruption because he doesn't personally benefit.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: But I think it might be unlawful to essentially try
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: to pay someone a for a vote. And it's certainly
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: not sure it's good politics because it's been roundly criticized
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: by both Republicans and Democrats.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's made promises before and hasn't delivered the money.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: So when you make the promise, the question then becomes, well,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: if you have that much money to give, mind you,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: we face a $ 40 trillion debt.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you have already given it to Americans? One
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: other thing critics say the president is holding money. hostage
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: for the renovations to the Kennedy Center. I get that
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: this may be outside your strike zone to some degree here.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: This is an iconic institution of the performing arts in America.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Just your thoughts, your gut reaction to hearing the president
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: do that, unless his name is posted on the side.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: That last part is what's so crucial, right? The connection
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: of sort of glorifying.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Vanity and vendetta. Over.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: This is an American institution where people across the political
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: spectrum have gone to enjoy art and music. It is
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: something that we should be universally embracing and be free
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: from politics, but it's gotten caught up in his ego-driven
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: desire to sort of burnish his reputation, which is crazy, Peter.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: When people are struggling to pay for their gas at
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: the pump and we have a conflict in a foreign country,
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: that's what we should be talking about.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Not the Kennedy Center.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Tim Heafy, it's a pleasure to see you.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you for being here in person.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you very much.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Hey, it's me, Rachel Maddow.
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: If you like the story you just watched, you should
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: know about a new way to see even more from
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: my show and from all of MSNOW, live or on tape.
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: It's the new MSNOW membership. You can watch everything we
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: do on your phone or your tablet or your computer. Plus,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: you can join conversations with me and the other hosts
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: and with other folks who care about the news as
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: much as you do.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: MSNOW membership.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: During September, you can sign up for just $ 40 a year,
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: which is like Just over three bucks a month. Just
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: click on the MSNOW logo right here or go to ms.now
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: slash membership.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Hope to see you there.