Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #456 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Frank Benitez

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#456 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Frank Benitez · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. On the evening of April twenty eighth,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, in Chicago, Illinois, two teenage boys were
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: shot and killed. Based on eyewitness description, police created a
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: photo array that contained a photo of eighteen year old
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Frank Benitez, who loosely fit the assailant's description. Frank was
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: selected out of the lineup and ultimately coerced in designing
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: a false confession, despite no evidence, physical or otherwise tying
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: him to the crime. Frank was sentenced to life without
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: parole for murders he did not commit. His mother, Betty,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: would fight for his release for thirty four long years,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: and they are both joining us today to share their
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: experiences and thoughts. Thank you, Betty and Frank so much
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: for joining me.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: How you doing no problem?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So tell me before any of this started. I'd just
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: love to hear about what life was before all of
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: this took place. So Frank, tell me a little bit
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: about when and where you were born.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: I was born in Chicago. Where were we at, mom.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: When you were born? Yeah, we were living on Lowell.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. All four of us were born in the same hospital.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Same doctor, same hospital. So you grew up with three.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Siblings, two brothers and a sister.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: And where were you and that rundown?
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I'm the oldest.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: So when this happened, you were just eighteen. What kind
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: of social circle were you running around with? What kind
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: of friends did you have?
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: I think I had some okay friends. I might might
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: have not had the best of friends, but they were
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: okay for a little while. I was running with some
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: bad people. I mean it was a mistake on my part.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: But for the most part, our neighborhood was pretty quiet.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: There wasn't a lot of stuff going on.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: What were your goals at the age of eighteen? Where
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: did you see yourself in the future.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: I really wanted to be an actor. My father was
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: trying to push me to be an actor, and I
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: was in a couple of plays when I was in school,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: that's what I really wanted to do. I wanted to
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: be an actor, or I wanted to play sports. I
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: want to play football. And at eighteen, I didn't know
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: what I wanted to do. I know that I wanted
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: to be somebody. I wanted to get out of their neighborhood.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: I wanted to get my family out of the neighborhood.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: So take me to why you wanted to get your
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: family out of the neighborhood. What was the dynamic like
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: in the eighties, How would you describe the neighborhood and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: what was it that you wanted to get away from.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, when we first moved there, it was really
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: a nice place to live. You can leave your bicycle outside.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: But then after a while started getting worse and worse,
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: and there was a little more crime. It was still quiet,
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: but you could see the riding on the wall that
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: it was going to be bad.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: So things were getting increasingly more dangerous. It was just
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: not improving, all right. So take me to the night
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: all of this went down. At about eight forty five
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: on April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine, two fourteen year
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: old boys left their home on North Harding Avenue in Chicago, Illinois,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: to walk to a corner store one block north, but
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: unfortunately they never arrived. Both were shot in the head
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: before they got there. One was found right outside the
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: family home and the other was found a bit further
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: up the block, and neither one survived. When did you
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: hear that this had happened, frank And where were you
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: at the time it went down?
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Well, I was at this one woman's house that I
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: had known for a little while. I used to stay
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: at her house all the time, and I used to
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: hang out with her daughter. You know, good people to
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: be around. And later on that night one of my friends,
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: his sister, came by and said, hey, be careful, there
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: was just a shooting. We just heard about a shooting.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: We didn't know there was a murder or anything like that.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: How far were you physically, Like, how far was the
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: house you were watching television at from where the shooting
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: took place.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: Maybe three or four blocks so close? Yeah, it was close, Betty.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Do you remember when you heard about the shooting.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard about it the next afternoon because, uh,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Frankie was getting ready to go to the flea market
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: when police officers came knocking on the door. No big deal,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: no big deal, and Frankie was more than willing to go.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, you you hear and see how people run
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: hide everything. But no, Frankie was coming out of his
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: room and one of the police officers says, hey, you
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: want to come with us. We're doing a lineup or something.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: And the police said we'll bring him back when we're done. Okay.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: So the police came to your family's home and just
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: said that they needed your assistance.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: They were just they were just asking you for assistance,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: a little help.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: That was it. And tell me how that unfolded from
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: your side of the story, frank I.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Mean they came and knocked on the door. I was
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: getting ready, like my mom said, for to go to
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: the flea market, and my little brother came said hey,
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: there's something. You know, there's a policeman at the door
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: looking for you. I'm like, okay, I'll go up there.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: And he started asking did you hear about this? And
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: you'll know anything about it? I'm like, I don't know
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: anything about it. I heard there was something going on,
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: but as far as if I heard anybody, you know,
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: if anybody had done it or like that, I didn't
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: know anything. And next thing, you know, he was like,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: come on, we need to take you down to get
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: in the lineup. I'm like, okay, I had nothing to hide.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: I was one hundred percent confident that I was going
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: to be released later that day after the lineup.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: So what was your first lineup.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: After the lineup? When they told me they had picked
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: me out of lineup? No, that's impossible. I had nothing
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: to do with it. They questioned me. They asked me
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: where I was at. At first, it was just general
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: questions and then the pressure starts and as we know
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: you did it, you got picked out. I'm like, no,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: that's impossible. They're lying. Oh they're lying. Yet you're wrong.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: You're the one line. I'm like, no, i'm not. Where
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: were you at? And I told them where I was
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: at and they were like, no, you're lying. And it
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: was just constant pressure.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Are you asking to go home? Are you asking for
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: your mother?
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Are you asking for Yeah, I'm definitely asking for my mom.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Like I want to talk to my mom, Like no,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: you can't talk to her. You're never going to see
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: her again. I guess that's the kind of psychological games
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: that they.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Play, and what kind of tactics were used against you.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: I didn't suffer any physical abuse, thankfully, but I think
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: the mental abuse was even worse because they pick on
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: something and then they just drive it. I guess they figured, Okay,
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: this is a mama's boy, let's go with the mom. Now.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: It's not like this went on for half an hour
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: or an hour.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: No, I got to the station. Well, they picked me
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: up around twelve thirty, and then I was there all night.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: From what I remember, I signed the core statement at
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: four three thirty, four to thirty in the morning. So
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: you're talking about, you know, sixteen plus hours.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: The two detectives who questioned you apparently already had a
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: history of doing this in terms of coercing false confessions.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: But did they have you write out something? Did they
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: write it out?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: How?
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: What did you sign?
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: They wrote everything out. They wrote everything out. They said,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: we're going to prepare a statement for you that is
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: self defense. You'll sign it and you'll go home that
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: right after you sign it, we're going to get the
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: stage attorney over there so she can witness it, and
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: you're good to go.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: It didn't happen, so they made it sound like it
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: was just kind of a formality and that they were
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: going to make it look like it wasn't your fault anyway.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: You just sign it, you get to go home, right?
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Did you get to go home?
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Obviously not. I spent thirty four years and four months
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: in prison, Betty.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: What's going on on your end while your son's being
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: held overnight? What are you thinking?
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Well, when he didn't come home by eleven o'clock at
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: night that night, that Saturday night, me and my mother
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: in law, we just started calling the police station. Every
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: police station we called, they said, who, We don't have
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: nobody here by that name. We couldn't even locate him.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: And you have to remember this is before cell phone though,
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: it's hard to get in contact with people.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I called so many police stations that it was unreal.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: So you must have been panicked. You're like desperately trying
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: to find your son.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my mother, my mother in law, she was crying
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: because we couldn't find Frankie. It was just like, where
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: could he have been? Because he wouldn't stay out that late.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Frankie would come home at a decent time so that
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: we wouldn't worry about him.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: So when did you next connect with your mom?
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: When I got to the Kokanie jail, I was able
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: to make a phone call. I called the house and
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: I can't remember what do you remember what time it was? Mom?
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, it was late because we were still trying to
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: find you.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Right, And I know when I talked to my grandmother,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: she was like, what happened? What's going on? I'm like, why,
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: what are you talking about? She says, you were just
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: all over the news and I'm like, well, so I said,
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: let me talk to mom and I explain it to you.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: And I asked my mom what was going on? She said, yeah,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: you're all over the news. And like, no, it can't
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: be right.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, no, wait, So Betty, you found out that
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: your son was arrested on the news on the news.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: What was that like for you?
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: It was like what? Because at the same time we
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: were listening to it on the news, Frankie was calling
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: us and Frankie told me, he goes, Mom, I've been
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: arrested for murder. And I'm going what. My mother in
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: law is screaming, my father in law is trying to
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: console her. It was just a mess. And I had
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: told Frankie, I said, we've been trying to find you
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: all night. What happened?
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: How do you even explain that when you're eighteen, frank
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: how do you even explain to your mother that you've
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: signed a confession?
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: I mean I automatically told her I was scared, and
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: they told me I was going to go home, and
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: you know, she called me stupid, of course, but I
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: didn't know anybotter. I was eighteen and.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: You'd asked for your mother. Yes, you didn't have a lawyer? No, no,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: So what goes through your head at that point? Betty
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: as like a mom of four kids.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: They've made a mistake.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: You want your son back.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was like, now, this is what I
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: found out afterwards when I was calling the police stations
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: to find out where Frankie was at, they said they
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: never had him until they booked him. They didn't even
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: know anything. So it was it was it was difficult.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: And then when I found out that he had been
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: booked for murder, I'm asking, Okay, what's what's the next step.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: We didn't know anything about any of these processes. We
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're hillbilly's. I'm a hillbilly. I'm from the South.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: My husband and his parents were from Mexico. I mean,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: I always grew up with the knowledge that the cops
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: were good, and then this happened.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, I can't even imagine. Look if
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: this happened to me tomorrow, even knowing everything that I know,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: You're not just up against one person, it's not a mistake.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: You're up against an entire system, an entire system and
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: the media.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I still have the paper clipping from the trial
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: that they did on my son.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: I've kept it for thirty four years. How did you
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: get through that? Finding out your son was in prison,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: that he's confessed to a crime that he didn't commit,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: that nobody is going to help you get him out.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: It was real hard because we didn't know nobody. If
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: you don't know lawyers, or if you don't know the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: ins and outs of things, it's like, what do I
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: do now? What do I do now?
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: It's hard, It's very hard. So take me to the
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: first time you physically saw each other after this happened,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: because that's what really hit me. As a mother of
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: a son who's now about to turn twenty, he's still
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: a kid on some levels, and I just can't imagine
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: not being able to hug him.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Right right when we went to the bail hearing for him.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I saw him for about two minutes. He walked out
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: from the back, stood in front of the judge. The
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: state was there, the public defender was there, and the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: judge said no bail. And that's when they said he's
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: being charged with two counts of murder in the first degree.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: The only thing I could do was cry. I couldn't
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: do anything. Oh and from there I saw him and
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: then they took him back to the back. Then we
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: went to the bond hearing and they said no bond
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: and we left there and it's like, what do we
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: do now? I mean, the next step, of course, is
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: to get a lawyer. They assigned a public defender to him.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: At the first time I met that public defender, the
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: public defender says, they're going to look for the death penalty,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: and I'm going what. And then he says, you know,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: your best bet is having plead guilty. They'll give him
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: life in prison without the possibility of parole, but he'll
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: be alive. And I asked the lawyer, why would I
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: want to tell Frankie to confess to something he didn't
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: even do. After that, my husband and I we went
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: home and my mother in law asked me what happened,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: and I told her we thought she was going to
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: have a heart attack. She was screaming and crying so hard.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: We had to call other parts of our family to
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: come and help her because we didn't know what to do.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: So then my husband, he had a few friends that
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: worked for the Cook County sheriffs, so a couple of
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: them said, Okay, I will give you some names of lawyers,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: and you know, go from there. But if you don't
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: know lawyers, if you don't know what they're good at,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: you just try to find what you can afford and
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: go with it.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Had you ever felt that kind of helplessness before?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: No? No, And here I am. I have to go
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: to work in order to feed my family, help pay
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: the bills. When all this was going on, and I
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: had talked to my employers and I told them I'm
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: going to have to be going to court for my son,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: and we made an agreement because at that time, I
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: was like payroll, that was my job and I was
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the only one who did it. There was no backup.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: So I would go to court with him every six
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: weeks because that's how they scheduled his court dates and
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: every time we would go to court, they would say,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: we're not ready at we're still gathering evidence, we're doing this,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: we're doing that, And every time we'd go it was
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: a different person from the state his visitation. He was
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: housed at what they used to call.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Max one Division one.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Division one at eighteen and that's the prison that was
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: crumbling that they're tearing down or replaced. Now.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the original jail.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't call you on the phone anytime
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: you wanted. You had thirty minutes. They gave you a
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: list of what you could bring in, which was basically close.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: That was about it.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: What was that transition like for you for that to
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: become your day to day reality.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: I mean it was kind of rough. I'm being thrown
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: in a place where I know I don't belong, so
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: I mean I had to act like I was kind
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: of tough, and I'm not really tough. It's just every
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: day surrounded by people that probably did what they're locked
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: up for, and mostly murderers. I mean, back then there
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: was no internet, so you didn't know if these guys
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: were charged with sex offenses or anything like that. But
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: most of the guys there were locked up for murder.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: They were going to trial for murder. So I used
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: to think to myself, you know, what am I doing here?
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: What led me to this? And it was just it
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: was hard. I mean there were times when I was
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: by myself that I would cry, Yeah.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I mean eighteen and talk about wanting to be an actor.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Suddenly you have to act to stay alive. Basically I was.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: I was in the role for my life. I had
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: to act as a certain part and it was kind
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: of hard because that's not me at all, you know, Yeah,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: I'm bad, you know, leave me alone.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: So you're held for almost a year and a half
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: before trial.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I got locked up in April of eighty nine and
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: then the trial was in August of ninety one, so
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: a little over two years.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: So your mama described the place you were being held
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: awaiting trial is kind of crumbling. But what was that
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: like physically and what kind of a cell were you in?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Did you have a cell mate?
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I had a cell mate. Yeah, it's close quarters
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: and division one. They didn't have bunk beds, so you're
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: laying basically side by side with somebody else. So being
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: in the cell with somebody, they're using a washroom and
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: you know, doing what they do. It's just it's hard.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: You're living in your own bedroom.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: I can imagine Betty that every single time you went
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: to visit him, he was growing older and more mature
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and kind of a heartbreaking way.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Heading into the trial, did you still have the hope
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: that this was all a nightmare mistake?
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, it was a three day court trial with
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: a jury of twelve. One of the alternate jurors she
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: came out and says, there is nothing there. There is
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: absolutely nothing there at all. That kind of gave me hope.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: So, Frank, just in terms of your defense, you have
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: proof that it was a coerced confession because it doesn't
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: align with the way in which the eyewitnesses testified to
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: the crime unfolding of an alibi. You have all of
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the things you did during that day. You must have
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: felt like, how can they find me guilty? I'm innocent
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: and I can prove it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of hard. I mean, remember this is
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: back in the eighties, and everything that the police said,
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: the state's attorney said, people are gonna go with it.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: They didn't have the cell phone cameras, they didn't have
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: people coming forward like they do now. And the whole
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: trial was frustrating. I mean, knowing that you're innocent, you
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: want to scream at the top of your lung, I'm innocent,
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: do not find me guilty.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: What was it like though, to realize that the system
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: wasn't playing by the rules. For you both to sit
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: in that trial and know that officers of the law
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: were misrepresenting the truth.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: It was frustrating because you're sitting there listening to people lie,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: lie on top of lie, and there's nothing you can
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: do it because the lawyers are saying, hey, we can't
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: point out their lives because it's just going to make
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: you look like a liar. So it's frustrating, and.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: You had an airtight alibi. If we can just go
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: back quickly and describe your whereabouts that day, you picked
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: up a paycheck, You went to the mall, Then you
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: went to the barber shop to get a haircut, and
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: that's important, I want to bring that back up. Then
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: you went to your friend's house where you watched television.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I still remember that. I still remember the movie
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: and the channel was on. There's Beetlejuice on HBO. I'll
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: never forget it.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And then you guys walked to the corner store to
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: buy limes, a TV guide, dish soap, and you were
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: back by seven forty five. I just thought it was
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: so interesting because one of the eyewitness statements that the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: police turned around was that this woman saw the gunman
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: running and thought, he looks like he just had a haircut. Yeah,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I know, right, which just seems like such a frame
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: job to me. Who looks at somebody running by and goes, wow,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: they look like they just had a haircut. It was
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: such a random thing to throw in there. So when
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the jury headed into deliberations, were you both still confident
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that this was a runaway train and the brakes were
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: going to get put on and this nightmare would be over?
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean from what I heard in the courtroom,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: all the evidence that they put forth, everything that they said,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: nothing matches. How can you find a person guilty if
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: everything doesn't match. The state is saying this, your lawyers
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: are saying this, and the two don't match at all.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: It's like, how can this be?
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: There has to at least be reasonable doubt, right, right, right?
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: And when the jury went to deliberate an hour and
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: twenty five minutes and that's including lunch.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Rank. Now take me to the moment of the verdict.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: I just had a feeling that it was going to
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: be bad, just the feeling. And then when they read
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: the guilty verdict, all I can hear was my sister
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: in the courtroom, just I've never heard of cry.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Like that, Betty. What was that like for you?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Heartbreaking? So hard?
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was hard.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I cannot imagine the definition of powerless better defined. There's
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: nothing you can do, no, nope.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: And then it's like, now what do I do because
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: you're still you're still naive but na to not understand
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: what the next steps will be because there's no rhyme
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: or reason to anything, because you've never had these problems before.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Take me to the sentencing.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Well, it's another court appearance and you go before the judge,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and the judge basically reads what the sentence is going
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: to be.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And Judge Barbara Disco denied the prosecution's request to impose
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: the death penalty correct and sentenced Frank to life in
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: prison without parole twice. Two life sentences.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Correct correct, two life sentences without the possibility of parole.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcast Gusts.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Then that's when they placed you in different prisons, and
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: his first stop was Minard. It's an eight hour drive
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: from Chicago to Monards and you have to have a car,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: you have to have gas money, food money, and travel time.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Frank, how does your day to day change immediately?
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, now you know you're surrounded by people that
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: are bad, I mean gangs ran the prisons back.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Then, you're in prison for life. How did you process
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: that mentally physically both of you?
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: Me personally, I always went into it where I'm coming
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: home one day.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: I lived every day I'm coming home. I'm coming home.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And my mom was my biggest cheerleader. All my family was,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: but especially my mom. She used to tell me all
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: the time, you're coming home, You're coming home, Just give
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: us some time. Yep.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't know it was going to take this much
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: time though.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So how does life change immediately for both of you?
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: After that sentencing? Betty, You've already said. Now it's pretty
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: much a day's journey there and back to go see
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: your son.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we would leave on a Friday night and we
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: would come home on a Sunday because of the long drive.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: It would take one paycheck just to do that, and
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I had to start sending him money so he could
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: buy snacks, necessities that he needed and stuff. And back
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: then it was collect calls. It's not like it is now.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: So you're now fairly isolated in terms of access to
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: your family, and you're now trying to adjust a feeling
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: like in even smaller fish in a bigger, more dangerous sea,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: because Menard is not known for being warm and fuzzy.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Nope, No, there was a lot of racism down there.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: I had it easier because I look like I'm white,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: and yeah I'm half white and half Mexican. But they
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: seen the white side and that's the way it was.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, there was a lot of racism in minarn.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: So what do you think was the biggest learning curve
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: for you once you got there? What was the most
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: difficult thing for you to navigate how.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: To try to fit in? Because for me to be
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: kind of like them as a whin lady for me,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: because I'm not that guy. It's you have to act
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: a certain way, and if not, you're going to get
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: eating the they'll they'll take your stuff or try to
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: do things, beat you up, or whatever it is. And
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: I'm glad I made it. It was tough. It was
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: not a day that went by that is this the
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: day that I'm going to die in prison?
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Betty.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: You having to hold down a job and and and
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: raise three other kids while you're trying to be present
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: and supportive of your son who's wrongfully convicted facing life
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: at this point, how do you, guys then have the bandwidth?
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: How do you even begin to go about fighting to
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: get him out?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: On top of that, well, I started asking around about
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: are there organizations that can help. At that time there
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: there wasn't much help there because back then it was
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: you're guilty in jail. There ain't nothing we can do.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: We had to start looking for other lawyers that would
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: right brief so that you could start going through the
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: other court processes to try to get the case back
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: into court, but none of them worked either. So then
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: I started looking to see if there was other people
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: out there trying to do the same thing. Trying to
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: find ways to help their members of their family who
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: they said were wrongfully convicted.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: And you have to remember one thing, this is before
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: all these exoneration projects and innocent projects came about.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Right, The one that really really stood out, which gave
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: me hope was the Rolando.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Cruz because Cruise was exonerated in nineteen ninety five after
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: having been wrongfully convicted in nineteen eighty five of murder, rape, kidnapping,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: and burglary, also in Illinois.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: It was the first time I had heard and he
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: spent so much time on death row itself, and it
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: was like, if he can prove that he didn't do it,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: then there has to be a way that we can
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: prove that Frankie didn't do it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: So in September nineteen ninety five, the first District Illinois
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Appellate Court upheld Frank's convictions and sentence. Right, how difficult
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: was that?
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: That hurt? That hurt because the lawyer had showed that
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: there was still inconsistencies in the original trial which should
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: have raised eyebrow. It did not, So then we just
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: like we just keep trudging and trudging and trudging.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: How and when did you guys first hear about the
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Exoneration project at the University of Chicago Law School and
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: the process heading up to that for you, like, where
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: are you getting the information of who to write, when
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: to write them, how to write them?
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Just talking to different people that are locked up with me,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: Like I just got in contact with these people and
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: they want to help, and I'm like, well, let me
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: get that information. So I mean, I've written to Northwestern
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: and University of Illinois or place in New York. I've
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: written a berry shehck to a lot of people. I've
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: written to Wisconsin, Michigan, Texas. I've written everywhere, and everybody
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: said the same thing. Well, unfortunately, we have too many
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: cases as it is, and it would be a disservice
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: to our clients now we took any more cases.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: So what were the darkest moments for both of you
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: during that time? Because it had to be like there
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: were these little glimmers of light in the distance that
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: maybe this may be that right.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: It was just never giving up. You really have to
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: keep in your head there has to be something you
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: are missing, that there's something that you haven't found yet
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: that will work.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: But that said, was there a point where either one
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: of you thought I can't do this, that this is
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: just too.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: Much for me. There was, I mean, and for me
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: it was.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: When did you know that frank was going through the
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: dark period?
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: When I would talk to him, you could always hear
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: it in his voice. You could always tell in the
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: way he was saying things. And I kept telling him,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: don't ever give up. There has to be something, Betty.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I see how upset you are, even when you're telling him,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: no matter what, don't give up. Were you afraid that
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: he would?
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, because it was like he wasn't seeing the
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: light at the end of the tunnel. There was nights
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: that I would sleep, no sleep because I had talked
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: to Frankie and he would be saying, Mom, I can't
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: do this no more. And I would just kind of
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: yell at him and tell him you can't give up.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: And I told him he had to believe because if
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: you give up, that's it. And I wouldn't let him
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: do that period.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And then you get a voice at the end of
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: that phone call telling you that you've got one minute left.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. We had a lot of those.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Did did your mom screaming at you help? In other words,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: have you ever told her what kept you going?
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: So I tell her all the times. She's the one
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: that coming on.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my sisters, my kids, and they tell me the
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: same thing.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: Mom.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: You tell him, don't give up, don't give up, don't
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: give up. We're gonna kick his ass. And I don't, Frankie,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: don't you give up. I'm gonna kick your ass when
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: you come home. Didn't I tell you that, Frankie all
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the time, All the time.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: I kept telling him. God has a reason for everything
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: he does. He may not be the fastest, but he
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: gets there in his time.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Take me to the turning point, Frankie. In twenty twenty two,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: represented by attorneys Joshua Tepfer from the Honooration Project at
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: the University of Chicago Law School and a non Swamenoffen
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: of the firm Lov and Lov, they filed a post
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: conviction petition seeking to overturn the convictions, and the petition
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: cited statements from two new witnesses who said they saw
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: the shooting and that frank was not the gunman. The
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: petition also noted that Bagookie and Schalk, who were the
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: two detectives who were also involved in your case, had
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: been involved in the wrongful murder conviction of a thirteen
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: year old Daddeus Jimenez, and testified falsely at his trial.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Take me to the moment. August twenty ninth, twenty twenty three,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: probably sticks out to you both as an important day.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Can you a.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: Bunch of us have it tattooed on us?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: My daughter, Frankie, my son, my daughter in law, even
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: my daughter in law's parents got it tattooed on their arms.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I love that. Yeah, me and the grandma's
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: we went together. We call it our senior citizen outing
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: because the other grandmas are in the sixties and I'm
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: in the seventies. Raye were yours?
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Wow, Frankie, do you have the largest one of the family.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: No, my other son I think has the largest one
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: on the back of his leg. Wow.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: So you know, we just discussed, Betty, how the whole
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: family was sentenced. It must be that August twenty ninth
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: you were all freed in a different way, and frank
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: just take me to that day and how that played out.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: So Judge Atcherson vacated your convictions and frank you were
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: released on bond pending a retrial. You had spent thirty
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: two years and fourteen days in print, thirty four more
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: than thirty four years in custody from the date of
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: your arrest.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, he was picked up on April twenty ninth, nineteen
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: eighty nine. He was released on August twenty ninth of
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And when did you realize you were walking out?
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: When the judge started talking, I was kind of like, yeah,
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: I might be coming out, and then she's like, no
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: cash bond. I'm like, oh, I'm going home.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: What was it like walking out?
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Everybody was crying.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Different kinds of tears this time. Oh yes, yep, so Frank,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: tell me walking out.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, who it was a relief. And then to
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: see the sea of people out there when I came out,
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: it was I finally get to tell my story.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And Betty, what was the first thing you said once
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: he was outside to him?
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Thank God? I said, Remember I told you never give
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: up hope. As long as there's family and love, you
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: have it all.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: And then in September of twenty twenty three, Cook County
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: prosecutors formally drop the charges against you, Frank. And then
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: in December of twenty twenty three, you were awarded a
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: certificate of innocence and now get to set about living
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: your life finally again.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: What are your.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Goals and your hopes and your dreams for the.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: Future right now? I just take it by day by
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: day and I just live life. That's all I'm gonna
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: do is just enjoy everything, everything that I can and
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: try to do everything.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Bright Pachecko. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with the sicknes No company Number
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: one