Latest / Resilience and Relationships (R&R) / Unmasking Grooming: The Mary Kay Letourneau Interview Breakdown - Resilience & Relationships (R&R) - Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders

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Unmasking Grooming: The Mary Kay Letourneau Interview Breakdown - Resilience & Relationships (R&R) - Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders · Resilience and Relationships (R&R)

• 0:17
  Stephanie Olson: Hello and welcome to resilience and relationships R and R, I'm Stephanie Olson, and I'm here with and we are going to react to the story in an interview with Mary Kay LeTourneau. Now some of you know her, and some of you don't. We actually did a podcast on minors attracted persons, and we started talking about this topic, and Rebecca had no idea who Mary Kay LeTourneau was. That's age for you, but we're going to react to this video, because this is quite a video. We'll not react to everything, but I want to react to some key things that are said during this, and I thought it would be fun to get Rebecca's take, since she has no idea who this is. So here we go.
• 1:04
  Unknown: Mary Kay LeTourneau made world news when she seduced her 12 year old student Billy fill out a 35 year old teacher who had sex with a 13 year old sixth grader sentenced to eating Mary Kay LeTourneau the last person you would suspect of being a molester of children.
• 1:21
  Unknown: Willie is now her husband. Then there's their children, Audrey, born while their mother was on trial, and Georgia, born in prison. It was wrong, and I am sorry, as we'll see tonight, this is a family still grappling with the truth of what happened more than two decades ago and who was to blame.
• 1:45
  Unknown: When did you first meet Willie?
• 1:48
  Unknown: Meet? Well, I met his brothers and older sister before I met him, he's so there are four in his family. And then the first time I was familiar with the name Billy full of Al Gosh, 1980 1989 88 not sure was that when you were here, his year two, teacher, one of my students back then, I hardly remember, of course, I remember his name so and I knew the full out family because I knew the other siblings so before. And then here came a unique one. I just
• 2:33
  Stephanie Olson: want to point out here that I think that she's having a lot of trouble responding to that question.
• 2:40
  Stephanie Olson: When did you first meet? Because she absolutely knows when they first met. He was a sixth grade student, and maybe he did meet her earlier because she had other siblings in the classroom.
• 2:56
  Stephanie Olson: But it's not the typical, Oh, when did you first meet. Oh, we met on a date. You know it's no, he was a sixth grader in her school, and so I think there's a lot of deflecting happening.
• 3:11
  Unknown: Yeah, you got to skirt around the question, because if you answer it directly, you can hear how wrong it is.
• 3:16
  Stephanie Olson: Yes, exactly.
• 3:16
  Stephanie Olson: Okay, so
• 3:18
  Unknown: we'll continue this.
• 3:18
  Unknown: This will be a test of your memory, really. I mean, you would have been eight or so back then. Do you have any memory of those years?
• 3:27
  Unknown: Like, not really, like good memories, but some of them are just random, just pretty much random stuff. What sort of memories like? I remember hiding in a in the closet, in the classroom, and, I mean, my friends, we used to be in their hiding classroom from Mary. Why don't you say what you were doing, hiding in the classroom, hiding in the class. No, what did you tell me you were doing?
• 3:46
  Unknown: That's weird to talk about, which only makes me want to know about it even more. Go on, Mary, what was he doing in the closet? What you said to me is like, yeah, we hide in the closet, and we'd hope you'd walk past if you could look under your skirt. I'm like, What the heck? I mean?
• 4:04
  Unknown: Who's like, tell us, like, years later, like, is that what you told it is what you told me you feel better.
• 4:12
  Unknown: No, I'm just saying, don't need to pause for mediation here.
• 4:17
  Unknown: No, I'm just saying it was like, what does he remember? That's what he told me he remembered.
• 4:20
  Unknown: I'm like, wow, wow. I had no idea.
• 4:24
  Unknown: Yeah. So even in this interview, there are lines being crossed, and this makes me so uncomfortable, yes, like, he was a little boy who was curious, like a lot of little boys are, right, he did something embarrassing that he doesn't want to relive, and she said, Oh yes, let's say that on television, yes, even though you felt expressed you're uncomfortable with it makes him out to be the weird one, even though you were the adult in this situation. Let's not try to say that this was all on him well.
• 4:53
  Stephanie Olson: And I think what she's doing, in part, is setting up the conversation that. He pursued me. And so instead of Yes, I seduced a child, he was trying to look at my skirt. He obviously wanted me. And so it's taking away the conversation between adult and child, and it changes. It's it's a mess, right? So really, yeah, okay, here we go. It just, it just gets worse.
• 5:27
  Unknown: Is a tough question.
• 5:27
  Unknown: What? What? What attract? What first attracted you to Mary? Can you remember she was pretty and, yeah, yes, I could not conduct this interview, because why is this the conversation? Well, he
• 5:47
  Stephanie Olson: gets deeply into it. Yes, I yeah, I might get
• 5:50
  Unknown: angry watching this.
• 5:50
  Unknown: And, mind you, I haven't seen this before, so right?
• 5:54
  Stephanie Olson: I know, well and I love, okay, so love is not the right word. I think it's fascinating his answer, because I thought she was pretty. Put yourself in a 12 year old's brain, that's what they're thinking, right? What did you did you find attractive about Mary? What did you if I if you would ask me that about my husband, I would start listing off legitimate things, like, he's a good father. He puts his family first. He, you know, all of those things. As a 12 year old, she was pretty and again, it goes back to that. We're not talking about two adults and two adult minds. Anyway, yeah, he does. I think, if I remember correctly, he does a decent job at digging. But yes, okay,
• 6:45
  Unknown: I guess you've got to start somewhere. I'm just kidding.
• 6:47
  Stephanie Olson: I suppose I know it's really hard and and, of course, we also have to remember right now that they are two adults. The key is, and I'll be curious about the consensual part, because when there is grooming and coercion, you can't really there's that consensual piece is troubling, right? But he is a grown adult. They have kids. I mean, it's a weird dynamic today, so okay,
• 7:17
  Unknown: and then yeah, and I kind of like that. She drew a little bit. She taught some art stuff, and I thought that was kind of cool. And then I think, like in sixth grade, we kind of connected on certain things, kind of like saw common views on stuff life and similar interests. Yeah, so Mary, when did you first realize I have feelings for a student?
• 7:47
  Unknown: Probably, well, first of all, he wasn't my student. When any any feelings, so, which I think is really important here, it was very important for the here in the United States, in the state of Washington, it was really important for it to be put out.
• 8:10
  Unknown: And I guess politically in a lot of legislation, it was important to portray it as if it was a student teacher relationship.
• 8:19
  Unknown: But it really wasn't. So even though, once upon a time, even you ask, well, when did you first Well, I feel kind of awkward answering that, because it's sort of wanting to connect it to this as a student, teacher relationship, and which is really big in law, and doesn't matter, coach, teacher, Supervisory. Sometime it was after so I am saying that. Did you catch his body language shift? Yep,
• 8:45
  Stephanie Olson: go ahead, describe it. Do you want to look at it slowly?
• 8:50
  Unknown: May not be able to see his face tightened. You looked away like I am not a body language analysis, but I would say is, I don't agree with what you're saying. This is false. I feel like you can hear in the way that she's talking. She's like I know the words that I'm not supposed to say, I'm supposed to push to help me not get in trouble, right? Worse, that thing about common interests,
• 9:19
  Stephanie Olson: it's gross.
• 9:21
  Unknown: What adult has common interests on a deep level?
• 9:24
  Stephanie Olson: Right? His body language shifted, because I don't think that's true. And this is his deposition, so when she was arrested, I'm going to show you just a portion of his deposition, and listen to what he says here,
• 9:41
  Unknown: and he's what, 12 or 13 at this point?
• 9:44
  Stephanie Olson: Yes, I think he was 13 or 14, because it was at the rest Yeah,
• 9:51
  Unknown: at the end of the school year in June 19 96/6 grade teacher Mary Kay LeTourneau took 12 year old Billy foul loud, out to dinner.
• 9:56
  Unknown: She took me out. Because I finished all my tests and all my assignments that were late to turn in, because I got 100% on all of them.
• 10:13
  Unknown: So you had completed all your work for the sixth grade. Yeah, and she was taking you out to dinner to reward you for that.
• 10:23
  Unknown: Yeah, she started playing footsie with me, so and I started kicking her feet away.
• 10:29
  Unknown: She started coming back. And then we just started playing. We ordered our food from you. They set it down on table. We ate after dinner. They sat in the car in the parking lot. I asked him, What would you do if I was to kiss you right now? And I went over and I kissed her. Was that the first time that you kissed Yes. A few days later, Mary and Billy were parked in a marina in suburban Seattle. So even though, once
• 10:58
  Stephanie Olson: upon a time, so his, there's even, you asked. So there was after, yeah, there was a swift, but it
• 11:05
  Unknown: was quite a bit, yeah, he looked down and away. Mm, hmm, whatever said something else. His eyebrows look surprised. What she's saying, yeah, not what happened or anything. Oh, I think the story she's trying to tell right now is right,
• 11:20
  Stephanie Olson: exactly. Yeah, okay,
• 11:23
  Unknown: let me ask you, really, in a different way, at what point did this morph, I guess, from teacher and former student to boyfriend and girlfriend, just a friendship, really. And then during summertime, you know, things just got a little closer. And you know, there was some, there's some, I don't even know how to say it dramatic stuff going on. Drama really, there was plenty of dramatic stuff going on. And again,
• 11:53
  Stephanie Olson: that's not possible. You can't have a boyfriend and girlfriend relationship when you have adult child. You can't have a true friendship when you have adult.
• 12:03
  Stephanie Olson: I mean, these are not consensual things. On Billy's part, he can't consent
• 12:09
  Unknown: to this comment on that.
• 12:10
  Stephanie Olson: I don't I feel so uncomfortable even laughing, because there's nothing funny about this at all. So yeah, go ahead.
• 12:20
  Unknown: Like, well, first of all, whenever he's like, let me ask you, in a different way, she immediately looks over and she's studying him, like, what are you gonna say? Which is another sign that there's some deceitfulness here. But yeah, of course, it was traumatic, of course. And I think her trying to laugh it off, like, Oh, really is like, hey, no, remember, this was your idea, yeah, and oh, this is just so uncomfortable.
• 12:47
  Stephanie Olson: It's the worst.
• 12:47
  Stephanie Olson: It really is. Okay, let's keep being uncomfortable. Oh, I forgot to tell you she was married. There's a whole nother layer. I forgot that part. Yes, go ahead.
• 13:00
  Unknown: Did she have any kids before that?
• 13:03
  Stephanie Olson: I don't think so. Now I'm now that you say that I'm confused, but I don't think so, but we'll keep watching, because we'll find out if she did.
• 13:11
  Unknown: But yeah, oh, there's a lot of things that kind of just led to to us kind of connecting on a deeper level. And and then it got even more wild crazy once the police found out, and her husband found out, and I think we, at least we spoke to each other as if, in that summer, we felt like, boy, it was boyfriend girlfriend, and that's why, I guess that's what I'm there wasn't a teacher.
• 13:42
  Stephanie Olson: No. It doesn't take an art class
• 13:45
  Unknown: at college or whatever age you'd like. That does not prove anything, right?
• 13:49
  Stephanie Olson: But all of this stuff she is, this wasn't, and again, she's removing it from the Hey, it wasn't teacher student, which it was, but it wasn't teacher, student. So that's not wrong. No, it still is adult child, whether you were a teacher or whether you were a grocery clerk and he happened to be a customer, it's wrong.
• 14:13
  Stephanie Olson: Period, yeah, it's a minor. The end, it's a minor, right? Okay, I'm sure at
• 14:20
  Unknown: this point in life, they're married, they have two daughters. I mean, she has said to the world, this is a consensual relationship. She's I'm assuming that's what she said at this point, at least sometime. But there's been so much denial that if she were to actually accept her role in this, she would have to look at her children and say, Yes, I sexually abused your father, and that's making this world. I mean, there's so
• 14:47
  Stephanie Olson: many 100%
• 14:49
  Unknown: happening with this denial well,
• 14:52
  Stephanie Olson: and yeah, there's so much I think we could talk about that forever, the actual not taking responsibility for. Or things like this, because it's very uncomfortable to accept the reality that, yes, I essayed a child. You know, that's hard to accept, I'm sure, but until you accept it and take responsibility for it, you can't move forward. So, yeah, okay, I need you to know that the first physical encounter, there is question about whether he was 12 or 13, but he was either 12 or 13 the first sexual encounter.
• 15:34
  Stephanie Olson: So just keep that in mind as you're listening to this,
• 15:41
  Unknown: well and Okay, her saying, Well, he did say he's in love with me, yes. And we see that all the time. When a child is my son told
• 15:50
  Stephanie Olson: me he was in love with me when he was, like, three years old.
• 15:55
  Unknown: Good point. Yes, my baby's told me he wants to marry me.
• 15:58
  Stephanie Olson: Yep, absolutely, yes. There's no he no longer wants to marry me, by the way, but he's 20. Yeah, because you know what?
• 16:09
  Unknown: When adults set proper boundaries with children, they outgrow that, or they learn what the appropriate feeling is. It's on the adult to set that boundary, right. They don't
• 16:18
  Stephanie Olson: know what in love means, I mean, come on, at 1213 Yeah, okay, that's why this is called essay, and it's not called boyfriend, girlfriend.
• 16:30
  Stephanie Olson: It's not called consensual. It's not called
• 16:35
  Unknown: Yes, you know. That's all you know. So for what I know that it was back then, yeah, I would say that that was real love.
• 16:42
  Unknown: I'm trying to take a couple of steps back to when you first made that brave decision to say something to Mary. Was it initially on a dare, or, you know, in front of your mates?
• 16:51
  Unknown: Yeah, it was actually a it started off that way with trying to get a get closer to her, but that was the reason of which I knew nothing about.
• 17:01
  Unknown: Yeah. So, yeah. So that's how her and I started talking, was, because there was that bet, and then, you know, later down the road in the relationship, kind of just the bet just wasn't even, haven't even crossed my mind anymore. So he was playing around with friends like pre teens do. And they, of course, all expected the adult to have healthy and safe boundaries in place so it would never happen. And then this particular teacher did not have any boundaries.
• 17:36
  Stephanie Olson: Well, so sad.
• 17:36
  Stephanie Olson: And I think there is a double standard. The reality is there is a double standard. If this happens, you know, the the hot teacher, right? The the mindset of the female, and the boys are like, come on, that's so exciting. And there is that double standard in so many minds. It doesn't change the fact that that is abuse. It doesn't change it. And so even if, and this is the key, even if, little child Billy wanted to date his teacher, that's where what you're talking about, that comes from a child's mind, and it is the job of the adult to put those boundaries in place and say, No, that's not something that is okay. And so I do think that's an important piece. So yeah,
• 18:37
  Unknown: it reminds me of a disclosure I had after a presentation. I was talking to a group of social workers, and there was a male social worker who came up to me after the presentation and said, Hey, thank you for this. It wasn't until today that I realized that I was actually trafficked. Oh, my goodness, you know, would you like to share more? What can I do for you? He said, Yeah, I'd like to share more. And so just get so he started telling me about it, and he's saying that he did try to disclose at one point. He was about that age, actually. And he tried to tell some of his friends, because it was his teacher, was his trafficker, his female teacher.
• 19:13
  Unknown: And they said, Congratulations, man. Like, that's so hot. Her and her friends. That's amazing.
• 19:18
  Unknown: And so he's like, Oh, I guess I should be happy about this. And he said that's the last time he ever told me one until that day.
• 19:27
  Stephanie Olson: Oh, that's so sad.
• 19:28
  Unknown: So because he thought, oh, I guess this is something like, I'm lucky. Yes, wasn't until going through our curriculum that he realized the name for that is human trafficking. I was
• 19:39
  Stephanie Olson: sex trafficked, yeah, because he was sold by her to her friends, yes, yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, right, that's fascinating.
• 19:50
  Unknown: One thing, and I think this is, is an answer to your question. It was, and I still think about this moment. Yeah, and still, because I remember, well, I'm just saying every time I think about this moment, he you remember when you came to me direct. You said, Wait, and this was when it was, it was a very, very end of the school year. And I don't even think school was really I think it was basically done. Things were closing up.
• 20:27
  Unknown: But I was on my way out the door and he said, Wait a minute. And he said, How old do you think you're going to be when you die?
• 20:36
  Unknown: And I said, I was really excited, because I'm going to talk about my grandmother, right? And I know I just said my mom's gonna live to 100 but my grandmother, which is not even her mother, my father's mother, she really did live to 103 and I so I was really excited, because he had never asked about my grandmother and or any you know thing, maybe beyond my parents.
• 20:56
  Unknown: And I said, I said, Well, I'm probably, I'm gonna at least be 100 because my grandmother, right now is 100 and I'm most like her. She and I was started talking about how she still teaches piano, and she was 100 right? And I was really excited inside that he was interested in, I don't know, I was excited to talk about my grandmother.
• 21:14
  Unknown: And he cut me off and he said, Well, if you're gonna be 100 then I'm gonna be 80, because I'm not living another day in this world without you. And I just was like, I'm like,
• 21:27
  Stephanie Olson: did you notice he didn't even smile? Yeah, when someone's talking about things that they love about their spouse and memories, usually the other person is drawn into that and smiles. He doesn't do that when she's reliving memories, which
• 21:48
  Unknown: is interesting, very sad, because it's trauma.
• 21:52
  Stephanie Olson: Well, she took his entire life. She took his entire childhood. So, yeah, it's sad
• 22:03
  Unknown: think too. I don't know. I almost wonder what his view of this marriage is. My thought is, obviously there was grooming that took place. He probably feels that he cannot say no to this relationship with all of the media pressure, he probably feels pressure to stay in the relationship. This interview looks painful. My guess is this isn't really the life he wanted to live. He just doesn't know a way out. That's my guess.
• 22:35
  Unknown: What's fascinating about your relationship is that it has endured. You know, that separates it from anything else that might go in the, what people would call teacher, student space. But I think what I'm trying to get at is a sense of, back at the time, at its inception, before this had evolved into something like love, wasn't this just a physical relationship between a woman and a man? Or I should say at that point, a little boy.
• 22:57
  Unknown: Well, you shouldn't say a little boy. He was 13, I know, but you shouldn't say a little boy, well, a teenage boy. Well, you know, some people are incarcerated in this state at age 13, and they're treated as an adult, and they're not called Little boys, and they get a life sentence. So when you put it in that perspective, so it's like, how which angle do you want to comment?
• 23:18
  Stephanie Olson: So incarceration same as abuse, right? I mean, wow, yeah, yeah, this is talk about. This is where we get to all the deflecting. It's fascinating
• 23:29
  Unknown: little boy. I mean, immediate energy shift. You shouldn't call him a little boy, right? Okay, I want to come at it from that.
• 23:34
  Unknown: I'll tell you what if you want to know, Are you hearing what I'm saying? I'm hearing what you're saying. But I want to come up from this angle as a 34 year old woman, angle, as a 34 year old woman, did you have any philosophical problems, moral problems, with entertaining the idea of a relationship with a 13 year old boy? Well, I wasn't entertaining the idea, and that's my point, but you clearly were eventually, eventually we both and did you have any pause at the time thinking, Mary, stay away from him. This isn't right.
• 24:04
  Unknown: What I thought is he doesn't understand that I have four children and I have responsibilities.
• 24:14
  Stephanie Olson: That's right.
• 24:14
  Stephanie Olson: How old were her children? So I don't know where they are. I don't know if she has a relationship with them at all.
• 24:22
  Stephanie Olson: That's interesting. I were
• 24:25
  Unknown: them, I probably would opt not to, so I could understand if that's what they chose.
• 24:28
  Unknown: And you have to keep in mind that now it's 20 years ago, and sure, in the last 10 years, all across the world, the laws have changed and everybody and you'll even see ever since, Mary LeTourneau, ever since. But see that was 20 years ago. Now, everybody has their eyes open and is aware. Surely, I hope every teacher, and forget about even the teacher part. I would hope that every adult that's a female. I, regardless of being a teacher, would know after my situation, pay attention, because there's law. There are laws. You might think, when you're in a world you were close and No, we weren't thinking about those things. No, I wasn't. There were no laws back that would that anybody. There were no situations.
• 25:23
  Unknown: There were laws married, statutory right for males. And if you look historically, it was a male only. And then the laws changed when the when equality. Let's go mad on this. You want to, because I'm ready, sure. Okay, so the equal rights amendments from state to state here in the United States, and it even happened over in Australia, New Zealand, and what's called the Equal Rights Amendment. And what they did is they knew they gender neutral the laws prior to that, it was male only. It was a male only statutory rape. So when did somebody get on the news and say hello world, or Hello New Zealand, hello or, I don't know how you do your states over there, but if they're in states, nobody got on, nobody did a press release here in the state of Washington or in California, where I was from, and said, we have now changed the laws. It is no longer gender it is no longer gender specific, a male only when I grew up, sure as a teenager, I knew that, oh, if that male, the males knew, because it was well known thing, because of because a lot of dads out there were saying, stay away from, stay away from the daughters here in this house, because I'll get a shotgun out, because you're older, And I can charge, I can go to the police, and it would be called statutory rape. I don't care if you love my daughter, you're 26 you're 30, whatever you are, and my daughter's only 16, 1315, whatever it was, a very well known statutory rape was notice
• 26:56
  Stephanie Olson: she doesn't finish sentences.
• 27:00
  Unknown: Yeah. Well, yes, because that would not look good for her to finish that thought, not until I hurt a child did it become law? I mean,
• 27:12
  Stephanie Olson: yeah, right,
• 27:13
  Unknown: I looked it up and what she's saying on that is true, which is true.
• 27:17
  Stephanie Olson: I didn't
• 27:18
  Unknown: realize that. But also, do we need a law to tell us not to have with a child?
• 27:24
  Stephanie Olson: Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I too, looked it up and yeah, frightening enough, frighteningly I can't say that word, but scarily enough, that is a true statement. But yes, just because. Oh, well, so it's gender specific. Awesome. I can't break the law because I'm a female that is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard in my life. But I do think it's interesting, she never finishes a sentence, because there is no sentence you can there's no words you can put to that to make it okay. You just can't.
• 28:10
  Unknown: It's horrifying. My situation in the law, the conflict in the law did so you say, Are you saying that?
• 28:17
  Unknown: Are you saying that? You're saying it was confusion about the law at that time, or that time or that you didn't understand. Nobody knew it.
• 28:23
  Unknown: Who knew it? Who knew it? But you knew, you know, Mary Come on. You knew that it was not right, even if it wasn't black and white. If you didn't, if you didn't have the statutory papers there, you knew morally, morally is that that's what you're saying morally? No, I'm saying morally and legally, not the legally part, no. But you are such, you are such a smart person, one I'd never even been in a courtroom. Yes, I am a smart person, but I'm like, hyper focused in my areas.
• 28:49
  Unknown: So you're saying, Matt, I'm a smart person. I'm revered as a teacher. But I just didn't know it wasn't right as a 34 year old to be with a 13 year old, sorry, not in a criminal sense. But I thought, first of all, you, you just said teacher again, and well, you were his teacher in second, once upon a time, once, okay, you keep going back to that, not at this. I'm not saying it happened then you're saying at one point you were his teacher.
• 29:09
  Unknown: Look, I'm not trying to get into semantics over that. I'm just trying to accept in the end, you stood up in court and pleaded guilty to two counts to some elements, two counts of child rape.
• 29:21
  Unknown: Well, the only thing that that title is is a deterrent, and I'm glad it's there as a deterrence, when now I understand the laws in general.
• 29:28
  Unknown: Yeah, but I don't want to talk about the logistics of the law, Mary, I mean, you stood up and said, Yes, I did it. I did something wrong.
• 29:35
  Unknown: No, I fit the elements. That equal guilty to the elements.
• 29:39
  Unknown: And we don't have to, if we're if we're, if we really want to, if you really want to go into like, the let's see, where do we want to go?
• 29:44
  Unknown: I just want to see what I'm trying to get a sense of whether you think you did anything wrong at the time, at the time, and now, okay, I want you to also respect one thing we're married. This is I appreciate, okay. So when you and we're not, like. Between us, we know what happened at the time, and it's entirely not appropriate to talk about because we're not we know. We know that isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it a fair question? I'll ask you to really know, because I don't want to disrespect you guys. Is it a fair question to ask if? Is it a fair question to ask you both, whether you think at the time, Mary, you were doing anything wrong if you knew the personal situation with us, and on that side, I I wanted everything to go away. I am like a big peacemaker, and I thought, You know what? We're not going to have this go into a trial, because that's drama that brings in my father. It brings in his family. And no matter what personally happened at between us that as far as those moments that changed everything at those in those moments, oh, we know. We know. And the fact that I decided that I as the adult was was going to make this go away, and we would all get on with our lives, and that I would get back and not even get back, resume, like I got some responsibilities to some children and a marriage to resolve. And for the best of everybody, I said, I'm going to do this, I'm going to stand up and I'm going to this is going to just the least amount of drama. Mary, I can't accept that this goes to the heart of the whole story for me. When you say the best for everybody, what I'm trying to ask is whether it was the best for Billy at the time. I mean, he was a 13 year old boy. He had a big decision to make. Was it the best for everybody? Willie, to continue it, you're saying you made a big adult choice, Mary, and I'm not trying to turn this into an adversarial interview. I'm trying to say, when you say you made a big adult choice and made the decision that was best for everyone. Was it best for Billy?
• 31:53
  Unknown: Oh, you mean this. Okay, so if you would appreciate I just want to let Billy speak. Can you answer that question really?
• 32:00
  Unknown: Let's clarify the question, though, you should I have said not guilty and brought him to trial?
• 32:04
  Unknown: No, no. Should you have pursued the relationship at all?
• 32:07
  Unknown: Should you have walked away?
• 32:07
  Unknown: You're presuming I present that I both of you.
• 32:10
  Unknown: It's a question to both of you.
• 32:10
  Unknown: You were the adult Mary, okay, but that doesn't mean that personality makes it so here's, here's a succinct way of saying it, and I appreciate this is a difficult discussion. I think it's kind of disrespectful that we're married and you're going there no no, because it's the inception. I just want to get that. I just want to deal with what happened at the time. I appreciate that you're married, and this is an enduring relationship. I understand that. I'm not saying it was wrong. I'm asking you to answer the critics. Okay, at the time, Billy, you're I'm gonna You're 13 years old, you're transported back. You can make the decision all over again to pursue this relationship. Do you do it?
• 32:47
  Unknown: Would I do it after knowing my kids? Now, I think there would be a lot of things that I probably would have changed.
• 32:56
  Unknown: I mean, I've looked at it, I spent a lot of time thinking about it like, if I was to pursue it, which way would have what would have happened? What ifs? And I really don't know, you know, I can't, there was a lot of complicity, of emotions going on with the both of us, her and her personal life and my personal life, and I think a lot of those elements kind of brought us together to be where we are today. Was it right? Was it wrong? I don't know. All I know is that, is that it happened, and everything that did happen, that we do speak of, that we felt within our hearts for each other, was real, but in the legal system and for the average normal I, you know, it is obviously wrong for many reasons. And I, you know, I respect the law and the reasons for those laws. And from personal experience and from seeing other people go through it. I yeah, I just, it is what it is. I'm pretty sure he meant to say complexity.
• 34:15
  Stephanie Olson: Yeah, I do too.
• 34:16
  Unknown: Like, isn't it a slip of the tongue that he said complicity, like, as in being involved in an illegal or wrong situation. I thought that was a very telling slip of the tongue.
• 34:29
  Unknown: But also, you know, he's not allowed to say no to that question, right?
• 34:33
  Stephanie Olson: No, well, there's nothing
• 34:35
  Unknown: can honestly answer that. If that was
• 34:37
  Stephanie Olson: the fact that he said, I don't know. I think is telling, because he can't say and and notice the first thing he said is, knowing my kids today. He didn't say, knowing Mary today. And I think any parent will attest to. The fact that even if you had a bad relationship and you have kids, it's really hard to go back and say, I would have not done that, because what you're saying is, then I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have these kids today, right?
• 35:16
  Stephanie Olson: Kids made it worth it, yes, and and so to that point, I if you listen carefully, he is not saying anything about Mary. And my guess is, and I look at their relationship today, I mean, not today, but in this, in this video, he is so uncomfortable, and she will not let him answer a question, no. And when he says, It's too dangerous, and when he says, I don't want to talk about it, every time he says, I don't want to talk about it, it puts her in a better light, not really, not to anybody witnessing, but it's like negative about him, yes, and so she talks about it, but yeah, this is just, there's so many layers here, and I feel so Bad for this whole situation.
• 36:18
  Stephanie Olson: We're almost done with this. Oh, go ahead.
• 36:24
  Unknown: Sorry. I was just gonna say I find it interesting too, that you see whenever things start to heat up. And I apologize for ever questioning this interviewer. He's a lot better than interviewing I told you.
• 36:38
  Stephanie Olson: He actually did a great job, because he got them, well, not them her. He got her comfortable with her or with him. He got he asked the right questions. He made it seem like this is amazing, and she got comfortable, and then he went in for the kill.
• 36:57
  Unknown: They would have just left. So exactly,
• 37:00
  Stephanie Olson: fabulous job.
• 37:00
  Stephanie Olson: That's why I was like, Jessica,
• 37:05
  Unknown: I find it interesting that as soon as things start to heat up, what does Billy say?
• 37:10
  Unknown: He's like, can we go to the next question, which is something so typical for people who are in emotionally abusive relationships of any kind, whether that's romantic or family, whatever, like, Oh, I know this is a trigger. I don't want to be around for this explosion. Can we move on?
• 37:28
  Unknown: Would you say this? Is this?
• 37:28
  Unknown: This story? Your story is almost an exception to the law because you fell in love, that that makes it all okay?
• 37:37
  Unknown: I wouldn't say it was. It's okay, but I think a lot of it could have been handled a different way. Could have been less stressful on the both, both of us, you know, they when, when they found out about it. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the this type of stuff isn't new, and it's gone back ages, you know, but our story was the first one to be publicized, and I can't imagine how tough it was to live through that. For the both of you, the media storm, the court case. What was it like back then, in the eye of the storm?
• 38:20
  Unknown: The media, the court that time, I just all I was thinking about through that entire time, was how she was doing, and was she Okay, and would she be able to get back to her family, her kids. I never really thought about myself. I was more worried about what she was going to be doing, you know, or how she was doing. And I kind of felt like maybe they should have gave us a chance to talk things out, or at least work things out. They kind of just cut the contact, you know, between us, between us.
• 38:56
  Unknown: And I just think that that wasn't right. I think they should have at least maybe a supervised visits or something, to at least talk things out or figure out what's going to go you know. I mean, considering that she had given birth to my child, and it was just, it was, it was a real struggle. I mean, there was a lot of things I didn't understand at that age. I didn't know anything about the law. Didn't know anything about raising a family. I didn't know anything about all I knew was that I loved her. That was, that was it. I didn't know anything like I said before, it's, it's basically like anybody who's figuring out love for the first time, they their first taste of it, you know. And that was, that was me and, you know, and then I just think it. I think a lot of cases just kind of get put into categories. And, you know, they see the highlight of it, but they don't really look at individuals a little more deeply. I think what happened with us was that, you know, this was just huge. You know, she's a beautiful sixth grade teacher.
• 40:03
  Unknown: Her background, you know, her, where she comes from, where I come from. They figured, oh, this is a really great story.
• 40:08
  Unknown: And they and they just ran with it. Was anybody caring for her feelings or my feelings? No.
• 40:15
  Unknown: Nobody really cared about that.
• 40:20
  Unknown: And I think, and I'm not, I'm not trying to play the victim here about any of it. I just think that it should have there's a lot of things that could have happened, but they didn't. There's a lot of help that we both could have gotten that didn't happen.
• 40:37
  Unknown: Have you at any have you at any point really felt like a victim?
• 40:40
  Unknown: People like to call you a victim. Well, growing up, I've always had people telling me that's not really how I feel.
• 40:48
  Unknown: You know that she made you feel that way. So I was always getting that so now that I'm older and I've grown up and I've been through so many experiences, I know my feelings.
• 40:57
  Unknown: I know who I am. I know who I am as a person, I know, and I love every little thing about me, and I wouldn't change who I am and all my experiences that I've come through in life that brought me here. I mean, it's, it's been a ride, for sure, and, and I think there is always going to be critics, you know, out there a lot of people that just wouldn't understand. I mean, I for one can't, you know, being 35 and looking back, like switching the roles. I mean, I for one couldn't do that when I look at it. I mean, after even raising my own kids and looking back at it as like, I for sure couldn't do it. What do you mean by making do that? I mean just from knowing everything that I know now. I mean, I couldn't. I mean even, just even without knowing and seeing a 13 year old, you know now you know me being 35 I couldn't, I couldn't, like, look at a girl that young romantically, is that hard to hear? Mary, oh, I don't. I don't relate that to our situation. But it's the exact same situation in reverse.
• 41:59
  Unknown: No, it isn't that's no things that are not actually the same should not be treated as if they are. But that's, oh, that's from the United States Supreme Court, by the way.
• 42:11
  Unknown: I mean, it's my mind, you know? I mean, guess what? It doesn't, guess what, it doesn't cross my mind. And it never did.
• 42:15
  Unknown: So I would never, what do you mean it never did? I mean it did when I didn't pursue it. But stop Matt, please, please.
• 42:27
  Unknown: I mean her defense. I mean the entire time, I never pursued it, I never thought about it, and it's never crossed my mind. In my heart goes out to him. I know, because, oh my goodness. Like, this is a bad enough situation. And I was thinking like, Oh good. They didn't let them have contact.
• 42:48
  Unknown: They need a clean break. I forgot there was a child at that point, so, like, literally impossible for him to ever fully get away from the situation. And I'm sure that if there was not a baby, then he's very different life. I agree.
• 43:05
  Unknown: I'm not saying there aren't. The reason there's a deterrent title like that is because maybe there are people that a male that might even consider, I'd say there, right? There are people out there. There might be there.
• 43:16
  Unknown: There are definitely, I mean, for us, good reason there's the law is made.
• 43:19
  Unknown: There could even be a guy that's my age. Dad finds a 13 year old attractive and that I know just for me, I couldn't do it. I know, and he doesn't. We're saying we, neither of us think that way, and we're both happy that there's such a lot you see what I'm saying.
• 43:35
  Unknown: And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to cause an argument here. When you were 34 you did think that way, and you did do exactly that. I was pursued, and I didn't think about it. I did not think about it.
• 43:46
  Stephanie Olson: See, okay, that right there at that statement, that is the problem. I was pursued. You were pursued by a 13 year old. No, she is just unwilling to take responsibility for her actions on this, and I think it's so fascinating that she will not let him talk, and he is trying to say, I can't understand how me at my age, which I think might be how old she was ish at the time. Is attracted to a 13 year old. I don't see it, yeah.
• 44:31
  Unknown: And then she comes in with, see, neither of us think that way, right?
• 44:35
  Stephanie Olson: But you did okay, yeah, but you did okay.
• 44:37
  Stephanie Olson: But that's not an excuse for
• 44:39
  Unknown: any crime, is it for and I'm not saying this is you can't just go. I didn't think about it. Think about it. See you later. Sorry.
• 44:44
  Unknown: No, morally, I thought about, you know what? I'm not even technically single yet, and he's calling me his girlfriend. And I thought that was, you know, it's like, this is not right. He needs to let me get on with my life. And. I'll see you later. I don't not, I'm not saying it in a cold way. It was breaking my heart. Breaking my heart to know there were two things I wanted him. I wanted him to move on in his life and experience everything he needed to all of his dying pledges of love. And I'm like, You got to go you got to finish school. You got to do this. He was accepted into an art one of the big art academies here already back then, and it was I wanted him to go experience life, and I wanted to raise my children,
• 45:37
  Stephanie Olson: but I couldn't, because he wouldn't let me let him go. That's what she said.
• 45:48
  Unknown: She's the victim.
• 45:49
  Stephanie Olson: She's the victim absolutely,
• 45:51
  Unknown: yeah, I didn't expect to get pregnant.
• 45:54
  Unknown: I know we just paused that that little line right there, I didn't expect to get pregnant.
• 45:57
  Unknown: Why was it even possible? Like, this is such a problem,
• 46:03
  Stephanie Olson: there is literally only one way to get pregnant.
• 46:05
  Unknown: Yes, like, I just wanted to move on with my own life. I didn't expect that, when I was consistently sexually abusing this minor, that I would have a pregnancy resulting from it. Well, maybe that shouldn't have happened in the first place.
• 46:21
  Stephanie Olson: You know, when I used to talk to kids about healthy relationships, one of the things I would say, and I do believe this very firmly, if you are not ready to have a child, you are not ready to have sex.
• 46:34
  Stephanie Olson: And i i Some people might say that is wrong to say, I don't know why, but that is just one of whether you're using protection or not, natural consequences of sexual activity just is. And I
• 46:54
  Unknown: think too, it just goes back to her talking about this, like a consensual relationship,
• 47:01
  Stephanie Olson: right? Like,
• 47:03
  Unknown: yes, there was a baby that still does not mean that you have to continue to be in a relationship, right,
• 47:11
  Stephanie Olson: with this minor, right?
• 47:12
  Unknown: Like, Oh, yeah. No one is forcing you. You are the adult here. These are choices that you made. And yes, he was involved. He made choices too, but he was a child. Yes, an adult in that situation will always take more responsibility, or should always responsibility, right, where we were at the time, whatever, I am entirely in support of the laws that are there. So you're saying there's not you're saying it's night and day, for example, between what you did and the laws that would surround pedophilia.
• 47:45
  Unknown: I'm actually was entirely evaluated probably three, four times. And there's nothing, not a single trait of anything inside of me that that's pretty loud and clear in any document that's like, that's a child.
• 48:00
  Unknown: It's like a mental, yeah, imbalance, where some, like somebody has, like this, like their attraction, what they're attracted to.
• 48:07
  Unknown: It kind of stops to pre pubescent. A child under, well, a child, a 13 year old, would qualify.
• 48:15
  Unknown: It wasn't prepubescent. Does that? Okay? First, let's go back. How many 13 year olds are having sex with 13 year olds?
• 48:25
  Unknown: Plenty across the world, millions and billions. Not a lot of them are having sex with 34 year olds. But are they having sex?
• 48:31
  Stephanie Olson: It's not relevant. Is that? Thank you.
• 48:33
  Stephanie Olson: It's not relevant. Yeah, that was a brilliant comment. That means nothing. Yeah, I don't am.
• 48:41
  Unknown: You know, this is a larger conversation too, but I think there is a difference between a habitual attraction to a child and choosing to abuse one specific child like you don't have to be, I don't know if I can say that on here, a pet, you don't have to be a head in order to abuse a child, you know, like that can't exist outside, yes, so I don't know that's also just a weird defense, yes.
• 49:09
  Stephanie Olson: It doesn't really matter. I think what you're trying to say is it doesn't matter if there are any other youth that she was attracted to. Doesn't matter if today, you know, later on, she was attracted to children. It doesn't matter. She abused this one.
• 49:27
  Unknown: Yeah, exactly. Yes. You said it much better than I could. Yeah, it happened, and one time is enough, right?
• 49:32
  Unknown: Okay, it is absolutely relevant.
• 49:35
  Unknown: Are they having sex? I don't see it as are they having sex? Are they having sex?
• 49:38
  Unknown: I'm certain that they are. But how does that relevant to this case, they're not children. They're developed. They're not children having sex with children.
• 49:46
  Unknown: They're teenagers. They're doing actually, really and scholastically and lit and across the board, with the even in legislation, they recognize that 13 year olds are going to have sex. So. We rip up the laws and say it's a free for all 13 year olds with whoever they like, no because there are cases, and it's called strict liability.
• 50:09
  Unknown: There are cases where there could be abuse, there could be so you have to have a law that acts as a deterrent, because there are people who might pursue and abuse a situation.
• 50:25
  Unknown: But when 13 year olds are with 15 year olds with 17 year olds with those really, when they're with it's happening. We all know. Everybody knows, across the world, it's happening.
• 50:36
  Unknown: Teenagers, it's natural. There's no laws that are saying teenagers can't do that. They're going to
• 50:43
  Stephanie Olson: I think what's so weird too, is I honestly don't know what point she is making. Yeah, what? What is her point that teenagers are having sex and so it was okay to abuse a child, which, by the way, she did. She is, she's trying to say that abuse of a child is something very different than what she did because they were in love. That's what you did.
• 51:08
  Stephanie Olson: Was abuse and and could still be abuse like Not, not in that same sense. But there seems to be some a very abusive dynamic here that we obviously can't dig deep into Yeah, well, and
• 51:23
  Unknown: I feel that, you know, if we're seeing this on a publicized news interview, how much more prevalent is it behind closed doors? Yeah, so true.
• 51:34
  Unknown: Wow. Yeah, you're right. I can see you bristling at any mention of pedophilia in this discussion. Mary, I understand that. Are you saying? What you're saying what you're saying is, this is a unique case.
• 51:42
  Unknown: You've never been attracted to anyone else under aid. Okay, let's just, I don't want, I want, I hope this is I want this to be useful to your audience. And I don't think it should be confused and over glossing that that term is specific, like as Billy was talking. It has nothing to do with me. One because he wasn't prepubescent, he wasn't a child.
• 52:09
  Unknown: And we have to, we have to respect the intelligence of your audience, but you've got to, I've got to jump in on their behalf, because when you say he wasn't a child, he was 13. Okay, so we go back to 13 year olds or having sex with 13 year olds.
• 52:21
  Unknown: No. No. I just when you say he wasn't a child, that's the only part I'm grappling. Okay, if the 213 year old teenagers are having sex, do you want to say there's two children having sex?
• 52:29
  Unknown: Is that what you would say, sure, but then I'd say it's infinitely worse. If that 13 year old has sex with an adult, it is true, but we're not, let's let's not like stray away from I want to entirely respect the intelligence of your audience. I am offended by the whole line of questioning, because I don't, I think, on an intellectual level, I don't think you're giving even to ask the question. I think you're misleading the audience to even and all you all, y'all just look up the definition and then say, did he even ask the right question? So why did you spend seven years in prison? Why did you spend Why were you talk for four hours? And I would be happy, happy to start. And any attorney out there, any legal authority, will be right with me on this. It's called a strict liability law, if sexual intercourse happened, no matter if it was, no matter if he was the aggressor, no matter if he initiated it, and being the younger I am, the adult, sexual intercourse happened in our state. There are three elements.
• 53:30
  Unknown: Sexual intercourse happened the age difference. And third element, we were not married.
• 53:40
  Unknown: What does that say? Right there?
• 53:40
  Unknown: And we were not married. That means if we had been, in theory, if we had been married, no crime, I'm just saying.
• 53:50
  Unknown: But there's a reason that 13 year olds don't marry 34 year olds. It's just not right. Oh, well, it happened in Virginia. Well, legally.
• 53:57
  Unknown: So should it be a free for all across the state?
• 53:58
  Unknown: No, but it is, it's, it's, it's not entirely, I'm just saying it's a strict liability, okay, can I put all, can I put all those terms to one side? Did you do anything wrong?
• 54:08
  Unknown: I've always said, you know, it was, should I have run from Him?
• 54:13
  Unknown: I did at one point. Say, say, you have to go. I did. I cried harder than and I didn't know I was pregnant, but I did say you have to go. Do you understand you have to go? It was very hard think legally it was wrong.
• 54:34
  Unknown: Well, we know legally it was wrong.
• 54:38
  Unknown: Emotionally, we now know that emotionally, the connection that we felt for each other. Adam, your answer would be yes or no.
• 54:46
  Unknown: I'm gonna be the same as you. I would not take back anything.
• 54:50
  Unknown: I'm gonna say the same as you said.
• 54:55
  Unknown: He said, considering my children, I don't know.
• 54:58
  Stephanie Olson: Did you see a space? Manipulative, yeah, did you just see his face when she
• 55:02
  Unknown: said that? Man, she like, so manipulative throughout this whole interview. Put that right there. I'm gonna say, as you said, like, let's forget about what you said earlier. You agree with me right now and now that we both know, yeah, and something else too. Of course, we can't be certain about the timeline, but if she says she didn't know she was pregnant, well, she was pregnant with the first child. If I if I read correctly, she was pregnant with the first child during sentencing, or like the trial.
• 55:30
  Unknown: During the trial, she was pregnant with the other one right before she went into prison, because she had that baby in prison. Yes, so she's saying, at the point that she cried and asked him to leave, is what? Whenever things got public? Well, at least
• 55:48
  Stephanie Olson: whenever she was about to go to prison, yeah, what? Which? I'm sorry, but she told him to leave. I told him, just go. Just go. He is a kid, and I mean, when you think about this, like so when they got married, he was he was 22 she was 43 and she had served prison, served in prison for seven and a half years. So let's just do the math on that, which just so you know, Rebecca and I are not great at math, so we don't we personally don't like math. But here's what I can tell you, 22 minus what did I just say? 7.5 years is 14 and a half baby she was in prison for seven and a half years, and they got married when he was 22 which was and nine months earlier she was released. So he was 22 years old when she was released and they got married. She had served for seven and a half years, which makes him 14 and a half. So she's talking like this. Was like, Oh, well, you know, I told him to leave. He made the decision to stay. All of this stuff. She is talking like this is so grown up this conversation. He was not quite 15, and I'm sure,
• 57:21
  Unknown: like, the version of the conversation she's giving us, I'm sure, is not complete, you know, like, don't you should just leave. I'll just be alone.
• 57:30
  Unknown: And I I like, I'm sure it was more manipulative, you know
• 57:34
  Stephanie Olson: what I mean, right? Oh, we can see that, all right?
• 57:39
  Unknown: And I'm if I could, if I could do something different, one, I don't live, I don't live a day like that. I do my best every single day. And I can look back and say, Mary, did you do your best every single day? And I'll say yes.
• 57:56
  Unknown: When you say, when you send your your children off. Now, in the mornings, you say, I love you.
• 57:58
  Unknown: Do the right I do the right thing. Did you do the right thing?
• 58:03
  Unknown: You know what? I'm not going to continue with you trying to have me answer that question. I told you I did my best every single day, and I live my life that way, and I did and in that situation, it doesn't even matter. I did my best, and even that, I feel, even at the moment, do I wish I had a different attorney? That's the only thing I can tell you at this point, did I should I have had a different attorney? And I say yes, but did I at the time?
• 58:33
  Unknown: Did I make the best choice? He was my neighbor. Was he the best choice for an attorney in this situation? Heck, no. Do you think you were wrongly and wrongly imprisoned?
• 58:48
  Unknown: Absolutely. Why? Because you don't know our story, but we do.
• 58:52
  Unknown: We do. You should never have gone to jail if you knew us and if you knew our the intimacies, which, guess what are nobody's business now. They don't belong.
• 59:01
  Unknown: I wouldn't do that to our marriage. I wouldn't go back to that time and put it in a book.
• 59:09
  Unknown: I wouldn't have a movie that tried to the movie out there that is not true. The book out there is not true. Nothing that's ever it's like but we never heard you say that before, which part you shouldn't have gone to prison.
• 59:22
  Unknown: I did the best that I felt at the time, the decision that I made, and I tried to take the guilty plea back. When I realized I was tricked and coerced into it, I tried to take it back, and it was a few weeks after, and I have said that before, okay,
• 59:40
  Stephanie Olson: she just won't take responsibility.
• 59:43
  Unknown: Yeah, literally, I don't regret abusing a minor. I do regret not getting
• 59:49
  Stephanie Olson: away with it well, and I regret the lawyer I chose. So that sucks. Wow. Yeah, all right, so I would like to just stop that. That's pretty.
• 59:57
  Stephanie Olson: Much that whole, the rest of that entire, the rest of that entire thing, is that what you just saw is pretty much, I mean, she literally takes no responsibility for it wasn't her fault. She didn't do anything wrong. Well, the entire time, it's so fascinating. I just want to know where, where Billy is looking, because he's not looking at the interviewer at all. He's looking over here, and I just think, I don't know, it's very fascinating. Is there somebody
• 1:00:29
  Unknown: back there that feels safe? Is it just trying to, like, avoid, maybe focus on something else, right?
• 1:00:34
  Stephanie Olson: So I was, I was thinking, at some point, he kind of told the story of the fact that he did recognize that it was abuse. I don't know if that ever happened. I don't know if I made that up in my mind, or if that really ever happened, but they wound up he filed for separation. When was that? He 2017 and then they got divorced in 2019 and she passed away in 2020 and I guess he was living in California, she was living in Washington, and when she called him to tell him the news, because I think she she was diagnosed with stage four colon cancers, it was pretty bad at the end. And so he went and was with her when, when she died. So just a really sad story all the way around. I do remember, and I think it was in the beginning of this interview that we watched that we didn't see something about he asked one of the daughters or said something. I think one of the daughters was Billy's age when they did this interview. Billy's age when it happened, like 1314, years old.
• 1:01:54
  Stephanie Olson: I don't know how you can justify it.
• 1:01:56
  Unknown: Yeah, the level of just cognitive dissonance as she's talking.
• 1:02:02
  Stephanie Olson: It's so true.
• 1:02:02
  Stephanie Olson: So well, yeah, so welcome to that. We were talking about it, and when Rebecca said she had never heard of that, Mary Kay, let's turn Oh, we've gotta, gotta do this one on podcast.
• 1:02:14
  Stephanie Olson: So, yeah, disturbing. You can watch all of the interviews are all out there, and I don't think any of them are any better. She clearly never took responsibility for what she did, but the the amount of justification is is incredible.
• 1:02:29
  Stephanie Olson: So what do you think my brain is tired? I know it's bad stuff.
• 1:02:33
  Stephanie Olson: Well, the good news is the laws were changed. Thank you, Mary Kay, for that. I think that is is good and shocking that they weren't there before, because, because since then, we have seen a lot of female teachers abuse children students, and it's just a horrible thing, and so let's protect our children.
• 1:03:00
  Unknown: Yeah, now I understand the story you were referencing.
• 1:03:04
  Unknown: Thank you.
• 1:03:04
  Stephanie Olson: All right.
• 1:03:04
  Stephanie Olson: Well, thank you for going along that ride with us, and with that, we will see you next time you.