Latest / Ruining the Workplace Podcast / EP 3 Mrs. Claus Ruins the Workshop
Transcript
- Jaden: I'm Jaden and this is the Ruining the Workplace podcast. Danielle: and I'm Danielle. Hello. I'm good. How are you? Jaden: Hi, how are you? ⁓ You know, ⁓ I've been on a bit of journey, but doing okay. Well, as you know, I did a big trip over across the pond to and it was interesting. ⁓ Danielle: Say more. Mm-hmm. Jaden: I had some good times and I had a lot of not as good times. I was pretty ill most of the time, so that wasn't super great. But ⁓ I will say that in our last episode, we talked about Ms. Sophie Blanchard and I said I was going to go visit her and I did. And so, yes, I went to the... Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Jaden: Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris and I found her grave site and it's very cool because it is this sort of shaped thing with a fire on top of it. So it's like a balloon going down on fire. ⁓ Danielle: That is amazing. Hold on, I wanna look at this. You sent me a picture and now that you're describing it, I'm like, I need to look again. So let me scroll through my. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I thought I sent you a picture of me with it and I don't know if I sent you the one with the fire on top. So I'll have to do that. Danielle: Yes. ⁓ maybe not, okay. Okay, so I have now the pictures of you next to her tombstone. Which... Jaden: Yes. Danielle: What part of this has the balloon? Is it the thing on top? Okay. Jaden: Yes, it is. on this, I'm going to text this to you too so you can see. But describe it for people who won't see this photo right away. So it's basically like, it's almost like a cylindrical tower a top. And then there's like little flames sort of coming out of the top of it. Yeah. So, you know, feel like Danielle: That's what that is. Okay. Yeah. Jaden: That's a bold thing to put on someone's, marker. it kind of it really I mean, that's she died doing what she loved. So why not, you know? Danielle: Right. So the flames on the top, and that makes perfect sense now. I'm so glad that you're describing this to me and not just letting me interpret these photos on my own. ⁓ And then the... the like round part underneath it with kind of a square. looks like maybe part of it broke off. Is that supposed to be balloon? Is that her carriage thing she ⁓ stood You know what I mean? Like what is the, yeah. Okay. Jaden: Yeah, the gondola. I'm not exactly sure because it doesn't necessarily scream, ⁓ this is a hot air balloon. You know what I mean? It just, the very top of it. I mean, the rest of it looks like a giant dick. It really does. Danielle: Right. Okay, that's what I was gonna say. I'm like, I'm getting big dick energy on this and not balloon lady. Jaden: true because it took me a while to find it. It was sort of hidden. it took us a while to like, identify like the cemetery is huge. But we finally did. And that was like the first thing out of both my husband and my daughter's mouth. They were like, it looks like a big and I was like, don't even say it. ⁓ stop. Let me have my moment. Danielle: Yeah. ZIP IT! Pay some respect, okay? This woman was a pioneer of industry. Well, not industry, but aeronautics. ⁓ my God. It is interesting. Like, I would love to know more about who designed this because my first thought as well was like, ⁓ that's an interesting choice. It's a big dick. And she was such a cool gal. So to hear you describe it is infinitely helpful. Jaden: Aeronautics. Yeah That is a balloon on fire, ma'am. Well, yeah. Well, ⁓ the kind the bummer thing about it, and I took a photo of this as well, is it's very hard to read the... Danielle: Would not have guessed that, is all I'm gonna say. Jaden: they call it like the epitaph like the writing on the marker itself is very difficult to read it's clearly you know been there for over a hundred and some years so it ⁓ and it's hidden you know again it's kind of tucked away in like Danielle: ⁓ Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. Jaden: It's so hard to describe this place if you haven't ever been there because all the tombs are above ground. Some of them are marked like this where they kind of have more traditional style of what we think of. But ⁓ the tombs in this place are incredible. And ⁓ I'll put some more pictures up to kind of, you know, show you the difference. But I wish I would have been able to read what it said. And I'm going to do a little bit more research in terms of trying to find what it says, because I do think it's. ⁓ Danielle: Love that. Jaden: probably tells a little bit better of a story than the dick on fire that appears to be marking her. Danielle: you I am glad that you got to see it ⁓ it's cool. I can imagine like seeing it up close maybe gives a little bit more energy. Jaden: Yeah, it was cool. I was glad I got to ⁓ actually sort of make it a little bit tangible in that way. So yeah, and then we did walk by like the building where, you know, it was said that she plummeted to her death. So. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ was there like any markers or anything there? Jaden: No, there's like a tattoo shop there and I was like half of mine to go in there and get like a tattoo balloon. But my ⁓ kept me from doing that. So anyway, yeah. So that was that's my across the pond story. Danielle: Get a balloon. Yes. ⁓ Yeah. I love we were able, you, I was not there, ⁓ you were able to connect, know next time, ⁓ that you were able to to ⁓ one of our episodes so That's so cool, Jaden: Sadly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, how about you? Danielle: ⁓ life is the same. It is nearly Christmas. So I am in the spirit. I'm getting ready. I'm playing Santa as one does when they have children, you know, going Dollywood next week. my personal icon, Dolly Parton. ⁓ and ⁓ actually ⁓ kind of funny, funny me, least, ⁓ Jaden: Mm. ⁓ That's so fun. Yes, Dolly! Danielle: My five-year-old knows that we're going. He's known that we're going. He hasn't quite connected exactly what Dollywood is. And for folks who don't know, it is one of the greatest, I think, theme parks in America. And you laugh, but it is so nice. Jaden: ⁓ you I'm only laughing because I know how much it means to you and I think it's just so cool and sweet. I love it. Danielle: Okay, it's so good. I've only been once, so this will be my second time going. Actually, the last time I went, ⁓ was newly pregnant, so it's very fun that now he gets to go and be on the outside. So it's country mountain themed. There's dolly everywhere, obviously, but it is also some of the most amazing roller coasters that you would not expect ⁓ in the of the mountains. It's so good, it's so good. So I've been... Jaden: Mmm. ⁓ ⁓ my gosh. Danielle: telling him, like, ⁓ we're gonna go to Dollywood. It's gonna be so fun. We're gonna have a great time. And he's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I don't think he's really connected. So we watched a YouTube video the other day of an overview. I was like, I want you to just see. I need you to really understand what we're getting into. And it blew his mind. And when they showed a picture of Dolly, he looked at me like, that's Dolly Parton. And I was like, I. Jaden: Mm. ⁓ yay. ⁓ my god. Danielle: No, it's her amusement park. And he's like, how does she have this park? How is that possible? I was like, dude, she can do everything. She's Dolly. And so I'm gearing up for that. More than anything that's about to happen, I'm very excited for that trip. It's going to be so fun. Yeah. Jaden: ⁓ my god. She's Dolly. That is so awesome. I'm going to have to take my daughter there because she loves Dolly as well. So someday we will. And we should go with you. We should go together. Danielle: ⁓ my god, yes. You have to go. They have a... Yes. If you were to go without me, I would be so offended. Jaden: Well, here's the thing. I need someone to go on the roller coasters with her as you know. Yes. Danielle: That's true. am. Yes. I'm the roller coaster pal. I love And there's so many there and I'm not kidding. They're so good. And like the food is so good. Like everything about this park is just great. Jaden: Hmm. All right, well, I guess a Ruining the Workplace podcast outing to Dollywood. Danielle: Yes, Should we talk about a new icon today? ⁓ my god, I'm so excited. Okay, so I'm gonna tell us some stories today ⁓ and I'm gonna start with part of a poem. Jaden: Let's do it. Hmm. Okay. Danielle: Buckle up. Santa, must tease and vein deer? Let go and hold the reindeer while you clamor down the chimneys. Don't look savage as a Turk. ⁓ I want to pause. ⁓ That's not, this a very old poem. not language I would probably use today. I don't know. It may be offensive. Okay. Back to the poem. ⁓ Why should you have all the glory of joyous Christmas story? and poor little goody Santa Claus has nothing but the work. Home to womankind is suited. Nonsense, good man. Let our fruited orchards answer for the value of a woman out of doors. Why then bid me chase the thunder while the roof you're safely under, all to fashion firecrackers with the lightning in their cores. Jaden, do you think we're going to talk about today? Jaden: Wow. Well, I really want to say Mrs. Claus. ⁓ my God, yay! Danielle: Ding ding ding ding ding. Yes. OK, so maybe not real unless you're a child and then she's obviously very real. But yeah, we're going to talk about Mrs. Claus today because it's so interesting how she mirrors the path of women's rights. And one of the things that I found in my research is depending on who is writing about her tells a lot about how she shows up in the stories and the poems that she's in. So. Jaden: She's totally real. Danielle: To start us off, I'm gonna focus mostly on probably an American view of Mrs. I didn't see a ton around kind of like maybe European Mrs. Claus. So it's very American focused, stories from America, poems from America. I think that's important to preface. One of the earliest appearances of Mrs. Claus came into existence in about 1849. She was the unnamed wife of Santa in a story called A Christmas Legend by James Rees. It's a tale of mysterious travelers who are given shelter on Christmas Eve and the next morning they leave gifts for the children, but they are also revealed to be family members of the host family. So I didn't read that story to be perfectly honest, but it is one of our earliest stories of Santa and Mrs. Claus. She's not named, she's not really given a role. As the stories continue to evolve, she starts largely as a behind the scenes partner to Santa. She helps with the planning and organizing and managing. The lists and the elves, that were written by women will often depict her as the person behind Christmas. There's one story where Santa notes that without her hard work, he could never get through the Christmas season. There's another story written by an anonymous author that was published in 1880, where Mrs. Claus notices that Santa left some toys behind and the problem solver that she is, harnesses up Blitzen and delivers them herself. So we see her really being this support figure, but also kind of managerial person and problem solver, right? She's making sure that everything is in order so Santa can go do his job, but also picking up the slack when he drops the ball. However, things start to turn as we see women seeking more rights, particularly in post Civil War America, Mrs. Claus starts to have misadventures and becomes more of a cautionary tale about what happens when you reach for too much. In 1871, a guy named Charles Dickinson, not to be confused with Charles Dickens, wrote a story called Mrs. Santa Claus's Adventures, in which Mrs. Claus believes that no children are too naughty for gifts. she trades places with Santa to do the deliveries. And when she tries to go down a chimney to make a delivery, she is attacked by quote unquote, hateful imps that are the words and deeds of naughty children. the story emphasizes the alleged dangers of women being outside the home and trying to take on real work. Well, not real work. That's extra work, let's say. In 1887, she appears again this time in an article in Good Housekeeping by a man named Eugene C. Garter, who is an architect. And that's an important role to keep in mind as we go into the story. Because in this article, Eugene describes a dream where he meets Santa and Mrs. Claus at a party. A good chunk of this article is Mrs. Claus complaining to the author about all of the problems with her kitchen and describing what the ideal modern kitchen might be. There are a few points in the story where Mr. Gardner tries to comment or interrupt and she silences him and tells him, wait, I'm not finished. Don't interrupt me. And continues to complain or say what problems she's having. Jaden: How very Kamala of her. Danielle: Actually, that's a great point. way I it, was like, he was using it to say like, this woman would not let me get a word in edgewise, can you believe it? But I also love that she's like, I'm not done, just wait. But ⁓ right, exactly. Yes. ⁓ my God. so glad you said that. That's so good. ⁓ And so I have a picture. me send this to you because, she's describing this perfect kitchen. Jaden: I'm speaking. Danielle: And the architect, ⁓ includes ⁓ in article using her ⁓ as a sales tool. So me drop this. ⁓ Right? So chat. Right. Yeah, exactly. if you look at the Images tab Jaden: ⁓ I see where you're going here. Mm-hmm. Women on display, just like Sophie. Mm-hmm. Danielle: Jaden, describe to us what you see here. Jaden: Okay, so the first image I am seeing is kind of, it looks like a schematic, like a blueprint of a house or like you said, the kitchen. So there's of a ⁓ ⁓ drawing that looks to be a cauldron. There's a pantry. I tell where the ⁓ the is. So I'm getting a vibe of this is Mrs. Claus's kitchen. Danielle: Exactly. So friend, Mr. Gartner uses this story essentially to people on the idea of the modern kitchen. And what I is interesting is this story and the I talked about just before, where she ran into the naughty children's words and deeds were both written by men. ⁓ And right, of course. And we're clearly used as cautionary tales to women of like, Jaden: course. Danielle: This is your place. It is the kitchen. Make your kitchen amazing, Good Housekeeping is and has been a woman's magazine, woman's focus, So it's very telling, I think, to use Mrs. in that way. As time goes on, let's say we're in 1889 now. Our girl takes center stage yet again, this time in a poem by a woman named Catherine Lee Bates. The poem is called Goodie Santa Claus on a Sleigh Ride. That is I read at the start of this episode. So I read a snippet of that. What we see in that snippet and then in the rest of the poem is Mrs. Claus starting to be a bit more assertive and a bit resentful of her husband's work. He gets all the glory. She's doing all of the work. In that story, she convinces him to let her come along on his delivery. She does. It goes fine. It's a partnership in the way it should be. What I think is interesting about this rendition of Mrs. Claus is the author, Katherine Lee Bates, also wrote America the Beautiful. She was a noted speaker and author on social reform topics in the late 1800s. She's noted as setting an example for women's intellectualism and independence. So it's no surprise that she's the one who kind of came in and said, no, no, no, Mrs. Claus has a real role. Women can have a real role in this and they can speak up for it. started my really looking at the story of Mrs. Claus through the ages and got a little sidetracked by Catherine Lee Bates because of how she shows up in literature at the time and is really this voice for women. ⁓ It's pretty and incredible to see she was a college professor ⁓ and ⁓ out the world ⁓ respected and on all of these topics. More recently, kind of bringing us to today, we continue to see Mrs. Claus as this behind the scenes help, though she will still occasionally have misadventure tales of her own. I think there was a movie that came out in the early 2000s where, again, she's misdelivering presents or she's running off with the sleigh and, ⁓ no, what happens? She has to make some adjustments and fixes. But what it really makes me think is, who really runs Christmas? Right? Who's really making this happen? And we see this in modern context as well. We're both moms. imagine that. I know I play a large role in making Christmas happen. I would imagine you do as well. I know my mom did. see it, women making the magic. How many TikToks or ⁓ reels have you seen where it's like, ⁓ when you realize that the magic of Christmas was your mom? ⁓ Jaden: Yes, ma'am. Mm-hmm. Yes, ⁓ yeah. Danielle: Right? And it goes beyond Christmas. Like, what I see is this, like, behind every successful man archetype, Like, the reason that they are able to do such great things oftentimes is because they have a woman at home taking care of everything and not getting credit for it. Jaden: Mm-hmm, emotional labor, right? Mm-hmm. Danielle: Yeah, exactly, yeah. And one of the more interesting examples of Mrs. that's very recent was last year in a Boots cosmetic commercial. over in the UK, one of their cosmetic companies, depicted by the delightful Bridgerton actress, Ajoa ⁓ who plays Lady Danbury. And it basically starts off with Santa snoozing by the fire. And she walks in and she's like, ⁓ goodness. So she puts her lipstick on. ⁓ She turns around she sassily walks out to the workshop and is like, all right, we got to get started on this. And has the elves doing all of the gifts and getting everything ready and ends the commercial by saying, you thought it was all him? I was like, yes. ⁓ Jaden: ⁓ ⁓ man. Danielle: Everyone should watch it. It's so good. But I'm like, I want to see more Mrs. Claus like that. Like she's sexy, she's sassy, she's relevant. Like she's taking charge. She's capable. She's running the show. So that's what I'm hoping we get more of in the future. That's the story of Mrs. Claus ⁓ so far. curious what stands out to you or where do you see parallels in today's world? Jaden: Mm-hmm. She's empowered. ⁓ because you went right into this sort of background emotional labor. ⁓ toiling thing that I think a lot of women do. And it's sort of that it is that silent, unpaid of it all. It's in the things that you pay attention to that others do not. ⁓ It's in things that you plan for that others do not. And ⁓ all of little details that seem to just organically fall into the sort of, I don't want to say maternal, Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: side because not every woman has kids or whatever. when it comes to a man and a woman in a relationship, those things seem to commonly fall on the woman to ensure. I know for me, my whole trip that I just took, I planned every single last little detail to that. Danielle: Right. Jaden: it because I was more driven to do so or is it just because that's role I'm playing? ⁓ And of questions I kind of ⁓ was thinking as you were talking about Mrs. Claus is like, ⁓ so is she just kind of one of the original like culture carriers that just never got like her share of the equity? Like Santa's out here getting the brand and the songs and the celebration. ⁓ Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: And Mrs. Claus is just kind of like quietly in the background, you know, and is she kind of being the COO while he's out here being, everything else. ⁓ Danielle: Right. Jaden: if quits during, you know, December, ⁓ what happens? What does that magic look like? know? Danielle: There's no presents, there's no cookies. That's it. There's no cocoa, there's no ornaments on the tree. ⁓ Jaden: No. Right. It's over. So she rebranded herself today. Do you think she would just give it all up? Would she be like, no, I'm going to pursue a new career. I'm out of here. I'm leaving the North Pole. Or do you think that she would become a more prominent role? Danielle: I think she'd become a more prominent role. ⁓ I think she probably still has a love of the season ⁓ ⁓ for all that happens. But I think that she would maybe push Santa to the side. Like you can stand next to me while we do this, but you cannot be in front of me while we do this, you know, and Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Danielle: And I would hope that she would put her foot down on the mockery. Like, I'm not fucking up deliveries, Santa. If anyone can do it right, it's probably her. Jaden: Heh. Yeah, well, and that's something that kind of gets me too is that like, ⁓ women so dopey. Like they just they're going to mess it up. It's like, ew. the interesting that comes up for me when I think about that is when it's the male role sort of playing the kooky dopey, it feels very intentional. Like it's for fun. It's supposed to be silly and Danielle: Mm-hmm. I know. Jaden: when it sort of flip-flopped over to the female side of it, it's almost like, ⁓ well, of course, duh. ⁓ You there's an assumption that yep, it's just going to be ⁓ messed up. And find that so strange. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. ⁓ my god, yeah. It's so interesting that you point that out. I think you're spot on. It is very much just like, they can't help it. That's how they are. Jaden: Yeah. Right. right. And so then it begs the question for me is like Santa just successful. I mean, you could say it's materialism based, but honestly, is he successful because Mrs. Claus is in the background or just despite the fact that like no one's acknowledging her, he's able to continue the sort of like patriarchal, you know, thread that continues to be pulled. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jaden: I also am really curious about Catherine, the woman who wrote this poem. What else do we know about her? Danielle: Yeah, right? So she, let me pull up my notes on her specifically real quick, She ⁓ was a professor, I believe, and graduated from Wellesley College in Massachusetts. note that I thought was interesting was that it says she never married. Had she done so, she would have lost her tenure track well Lee. faculty position, as well as some of the independence she was accustomed to. So a lot of risk for her to get married. Like, hey, I'm going to lose my job. And I like doing my own thing. ⁓ Jaden: That's the real independence of it, right? ⁓ get that and then why would you want to give it up? What's ⁓ in it for you at that point? ⁓ Danielle: Right. ⁓ my God, yeah. Right? Yeah, you have to be really great to make this worth my time. she was an active speaker on women's rights. She was living her own life and trying to be an example for other women and ⁓ was a prolific writer in the time. Jaden: I- ⁓ Yeah, and I love that she took a focus on Mrs. Claus, of like all people or all fictional sort of characters, you know? You know, you can really dig into kind of a couple of different areas, which is, well, maybe like three kind of core areas. There's like this sort of invisible labor, this kind of emotional labor slash culture thing. Because I mean, as soon as you say Mrs. Claus, what do you think you think of an older lady wearing an apron? Right. And she's probably baking Danielle: know, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. Jaden: cookies or like you said in a kitchen. what about the sort of outcomes of all of this? Well, everything that's visible is due to Santa. It's not due to really anything that she's doing. And so, she's hypothetically the person who's making everything look effortless and giving Santa the glory, right? So it's that invisible work, highly visible outcomes, but she's again, still in the background. And then. ⁓ Danielle: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Jaden: The other thing is this sort of leadership without authority. ⁓ I think is interesting is the parallels between her and Catherine in that way. ⁓ is a woman who is independent, and this is a woman who is really, ⁓ she realizes it or not, but kind of. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jaden: leading revolutionary thinking in either dialogues or in writing, and then bringing it to this sort of fictional space, Where that has potential. And whether or not she realized it back then, it sounds like maybe she was onto something given her position. ⁓ she's sitting here thinking, OK, like, this could have a cultural impact. And how do I do that through really impactful storytelling? I think that's so smart and so interesting. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Right? Isn't Jaden: not like the character of Claus is just like a ⁓ passive idea either. She's really strategically credited and Danielle: Right? ⁓ yeah. Jaden: She's competent in a system that assumes her competence is just natural, But then it's like, no, really, this is this is woman who's keeping the running. She's organizing chaos. She's, ⁓ you know, not really credited. She's just got the vibes. ⁓ Danielle: Right. ⁓ God, yeah, that's so true. And it's really all in how you position it, right? Like, because you could just, you could be good at some of these things. It does come naturally to some people, I'm sure. And also, it could be the things that you don't want to be known for. Sure, I can take really good notes, but I don't want to be known as the note taker, you know? And it makes me think a lot about Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Right. Danielle: we're coming into the new year and ⁓ rebirth and reinvention and you'd ask, you know, what would she want to be kind of re-envisioned as now, or would she want to continue with the Christmas stuff and whatever? And it makes me think of, when we look at how this translates to modern day life or work stuff, what are we known for? ⁓ What do we want to be reinvented and known for in the future, right? Like, I don't want to be known as a note taker. I don't want to be known as X, Y, and Z. I want it to be this. And how do you shift the perceptions of those around you so that that new story becomes the one that is told? Jaden: Mmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And. Right. Yes. Revolutionary poems. I have a question, too, and what I'm thinking is like, is Mrs. Claus content in all of this or is she just tired? And if she is content, then is that because she's choosing to be so or is it just because she has never been offered a different path? Danielle: We gotta write poems about ourselves. Yeah. Hmm Right. Is she quiet quitting Christmas? She's over it. it makes me think of a couple of things. One, is she quiet quitting Christmas? And the other, you know, I love my Hallmark movies and Hallmark adjacent Christmas movies. And there has been a meme going around social media for a couple of years now that talks about Mrs. Claus and how she used to be. Jaden: Quit quitting Christmas. Mrs. Claus is out. Mm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: the city girl in stilettos and then she ended up on some Christmas tree farm and the guy won't let her leave and now she's a dotty old lady who has no power and I was like damn but also We don't know her backstory. She might have been a bad bitch. And now she's like, I guess I just wear this bonnet and make cookies. don't. OK. She's probably not content, but she's stuck. Jaden: She's stuck. Oh my gosh. know, that's wild. I never really pictured. OK, that's ingrained in my brain is the cultural phenomena of the cozy lady in the dress and the knit, everything we described earlier, right? But not this sort of badass lady. And I love this sort of fresh response. Because I mean, why not? Danielle: Yeah. Right. Isn't that funny? Yeah, I love it. like, I don't want that to be her story. And at the same time, I'm like, no, that tracks though. ⁓ Jaden: Right? Danielle: if we were to position this to like a work thing, what do we think we could learn? Because Mrs. Claus is ruining the workshop ⁓ and maybe burning it down, Jaden: Yeah, yeah, the question I think I'm hearing is what does Mrs. Claus teach us about visibility versus I mean, just being in the background kind of in the workplace. Maybe it's like visibility versus value. So because you and I ascended through our careers and we've both achieved ⁓ quite a lot in terms influence, you know, being able to work with leadership teams, talk at executive levels, things like that. But it wasn't always that way. We had to get there. And I definitely feel like there was a time where I was very much the background producer type, the details, the not getting credit for anything, but doing all the hard work. so I think the magic happens when you are able to ⁓ start. Danielle: Mm-hmm, right, right. Jaden: To me, it comes down to a self-confidence thing. Like now, I know that people value the subject matter expertise that I bring, and that's why I'm here. It's not just because I know how to you know, dot an I or cross a T. It's because I'm actually bringing something valuable, strategy, brain, whatever that is, and... Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: And I am getting recognized for it more often. But I feel like it takes a lot of work in comparison to some maybe male colleagues to have gotten there. How about you? Danielle: Right. you know, would say it's probably similar of like getting to a point where that ⁓ self confidence outweighs the syndrome. And that's not to say that I can't speak for you, but I still experience imposter syndrome from time to time. But now ⁓ my confidence ⁓ and in myself my expertise outweighs that more often I feel like no, I know what I'm doing and why I was hired to do this thing and I'm good at it. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm Danielle: and ⁓ with that, think comes the, the ability and the comfort saying, going to share my own ideas, because I've been in that space, where it's like, you just you sit back, and you're the doer, to make somebody else look great. And now like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Jaden: Yep. Danielle: I want to look great. I am great. Right. Yeah. So I do think it's a practice in self-confidence. ⁓ I was going ask you, are there ⁓ things, ⁓ ⁓ that can of that helped you grow that self-confidence and that, trust in your expertise? ⁓ Jaden: Yeah. And here's the proof. Here's the evidence. ⁓ to think on that for a minute. mean it was Prozac baby. ⁓ mean antidepressants help. But ⁓ realistically I think a lot of it is just time and sort of realizing Danielle: I mean, you can say that. That's great. Jaden: all the years that I have put in really did lead to something. There's almost an acknowledgement of the amount of work that you put into something and then saying, you know what, this is not my first rodeo. I have been around this block before. I know what I'm doing. ⁓ And being comfortable enough to hear others give you that kind of feedback and accept it, that's one of the things that I think we're all guilty of as sort of Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: ⁓ well I just don't know if I can really trust anybody who's telling me I'm doing a good job. Danielle: ⁓ Jaden: So it's sort of being open to accept that kind of feedback because if you can reach the point in your career where performance reviews now turn into not praise sessions, but more of it's like, hey, you're doing a really great job. And what do you want to do with your? Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: your time here and how do you want to spend it and how do you want to bring value versus, you did something wrong or this isn't working or you need to work on this. that's a very different kind of conversation. But I know it took me years to allow myself to even hear that. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so interesting. Jaden: The other thing that had occurred to me in the last, I'd say probably last year or so, was I have gotten myself to where I am, not other people. It's not because other people are putting me up on a pedestal or giving me special chances or things like, no, I've worked hard and this is where I've gotten myself and that's pretty good. And I need to recognize that in myself because I have not done that for far too long. Danielle: ⁓ yeah. Ooh. I love that. Yeah. You know what that makes me think of is we absolutely need to acknowledge more our own ⁓ ownership ⁓ over our paths our roles in the work that we're doing. And I wish that someone had told me when I was in my 20s that I should be documenting like every year what projects I worked on or like what things I accomplished, right? Because ⁓ I can look and be like, ⁓ yeah, there was that one big thing I did. Jaden: Yes. ⁓ yeah. Danielle: But I know there were also other little things that I did that I wish I had written down somewhere, especially as you go from job to job to job, taking that list of accomplishments with you so that you can look back yourself and be like, look at all the badass things I did. It helps for your resume. helps for your confidence. Jaden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Totally. Mm-hmm. Danielle: It helps beat imposter syndrome. somebody told me this just a couple of years ago and I was like, that's revolutionary. Why did not know to do that? ⁓ Jaden: helps for your morale. No, for real. Mm-hmm. I know. Well, and you know, as you get older, like me, start hitting perimenopause or whatever, and your brain starts turning to mush. And then you think, God, what was it that I did back then? And then you do remember something, and you tell your teenage daughter, and she's like, you were a photographer at one point? Why didn't you ever tell me that? Wow. I didn't know you were cool. Yeah. Danielle: Hmm. Yeah. Jaden: Yeah. This has been a really good conversation. Danielle: I love that. ⁓ my God. This has been a great conversation. I am wondering if it is time for us to talk about how we can ruin the workplace this week as we head into ⁓ holiday season. Jaden: ⁓ yes. Well, I have a holiday themed ruining the workplace tip of the week. So buckle up. It is. It's kind of a holiday energy tip. So and I feel very strongly about this. OK, so I want everyone to listen up. All two of you. Turn up. It's about to get real. So if you got PTO, take your damn PTO. Don't work. Danielle: Yeah, okay. Turn up the volume, folks. It's about to get real. Jaden: during your PTO. It's not a decorative garnish. OK? It is not. The O is not optional. OK? It's off. Paid time off. OK? You're taking time off away from work. Let it do its job. OK? Your inbox, your phone, whatever. It can all wait like a polite caroller at the door, or it can be told to fuck right off. So that is my ruining the workplace tip of the week. Happy holidays. Danielle: I love I love that. I fully support this. Jaden: with that, think we've ruined another workplace, ⁓ Danielle: We did it. Take that Santa. Mrs. Claus forever. Jaden: Yeah, we love you Mrs. Claus.