Latest / Stephanomics / Voternomics: How the Left Lost Its Way in Europe

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Voternomics: How the Left Lost Its Way in Europe · Stephanomics

0:05
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to another Voter Nomics where politics and markets collide.
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Speaker 2: This year, voters around the world have the ability to
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Speaker 2: turn markets, countries and economies like never before, so we've
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Speaker 2: created this series to help you make sense of it all.
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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Flanders.
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Speaker 3: I made Frim Wildridge, and I'm Alegristratgy and on this
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Speaker 3: episode we thought we would take a closer look at
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Speaker 3: the rise of right wing populism in Europe and we
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Speaker 3: have obviously had our own variety of that on show
0:45
Speaker 3: at the start of this week with the release of
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Speaker 3: the Reform Party's contract not manifesto with the UK, but
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Speaker 3: Nigel Faraj has spoken about wanting to be prime Minister
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Speaker 3: after the next election.
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Speaker 2: George of Maloney is already Prime Minister of Italy and
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Speaker 2: she was on show this weekend hosting her counterparts at
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Speaker 2: the g seventh summit in Pulia, and it was pretty
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Speaker 2: evident that she was the only leader with a spring
1:07
Speaker 2: in her step and a favorable poll rating, so we
1:11
Speaker 2: wanted to hear about the secrets of her success and
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Speaker 2: the lessons for mainstream and maybe also less mainstream conservative
1:19
Speaker 2: parties in the UK from one of her fans, Francesco Jubilee,
1:24
Speaker 2: the president of the leading Italian conservative foundation, Fondatzioni Tartarella.
1:29
Speaker 2: He's also the author of the History of European conservative thought.
1:33
Speaker 2: And then we're going to hear a completely different perspective
1:35
Speaker 2: from Janis Fara Facis, who of course you will know
1:39
Speaker 2: as the former Finance Minister of Greece, motorbike owner and
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Speaker 2: author of several international best selling books, including recently Techno
1:48
Speaker 2: Feudalism What Killed Capitalism. So, Adrian Alegre, it does feel
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Speaker 2: like a week to be thinking about the rise of
1:56
Speaker 2: the right in Europe. We can see also in this
2:00
Speaker 2: election that Macrants called in France, obviously a big focus
2:04
Speaker 2: on Marine Le Penn's Class Envelementale party formerly the National Front.
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Speaker 2: I want to understand it, but I also want to
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Speaker 2: think about lessons, as I said, for everybody in the UK.
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Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the.
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Speaker 5: Striking things about the writers that these are nationalist movements
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Speaker 5: and the things that they hate most of all are
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Speaker 5: the sort of the global devils, elites, and yet in
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Speaker 5: some ways they are in themselves international. They learn from
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Speaker 5: each other, they imitate each other, And I was just
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Speaker 5: thinking of Farage who has launched his contract this morning
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Speaker 5: contract with you, and that's directly taken from New Gingrich.
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Speaker 5: You know, we don't have that in British politics. We
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Speaker 5: have manifestos. You know, Peel launched the whole thing with
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Speaker 5: the Tom Tamworth manifesto. Now we have somebody using the
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Speaker 5: language of a contractarian society like the United States. And
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Speaker 5: you know, his own political party is really a political party.
3:01
Speaker 5: It's a private company which treats him as a star,
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Speaker 5: not as a party leader, but as a star with
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Speaker 5: lots and lots of followers, which is exactly the politics
3:11
Speaker 5: that you see with Trump, but also with a lot
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Speaker 5: of European populist leaders. So it's a strange mixture of
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Speaker 5: nationalism and internationalism that we're seeing.
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Speaker 1: But Adrian he's leading a revolt, you know, he's making
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Speaker 1: a play of that. Isn't He's not a manifesto because
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Speaker 1: that would be too vanilla, wouldn't that?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I suppose so. But they're all in some sense
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Speaker 5: leading revolts. But in a lot of Europe now they're
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Speaker 5: moving from being a party of revolt to being a
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Speaker 5: party of government. And you see that with the French
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Speaker 5: in particular.
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Speaker 2: And This is what I think is interesting because although
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Speaker 2: they are all considered themselves to be in the same
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Speaker 2: family to some extent, although actually recently none of them
3:47
Speaker 2: have got on very well with the alternative. For Deutschlan
3:50
Speaker 2: Yes Party, he's considered to be beyond the pale, even
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Speaker 2: in far right circles. But I think Georgia Maloney's leadership
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Speaker 2: her time in government has been very interesting in the
4:00
Speaker 2: way that she's been willing to compromise, willing to have
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Speaker 2: very mainstream views and policies on Ukraine on quite a
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Speaker 2: lot of economic things, and I thought it was very
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Speaker 2: striking these statements that nobody really cares about except the
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Speaker 2: people drafting them. But they have this communic case from
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Speaker 2: the G seven, and the only disagreement of all the
4:19
Speaker 2: things they'd agreed on this very important package for Ukraine
4:23
Speaker 2: and other things, was around the restatement of support for
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Speaker 2: reproductive rights and safe and legal abortion from last year's communicate,
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Speaker 2: And I thought it was interesting that the one thing
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Speaker 2: she was actually sort of playing ball and to all
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Speaker 2: intentsive purposes being a mainstream leader when it came to
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Speaker 2: many of these important European issues, But on that core
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Speaker 2: cultural ground she still had to mark out a more
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Speaker 2: traditional and more in some ways it was more to
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Speaker 2: her base.
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Speaker 5: Absolutely well. We tend to talk about the far rights
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Speaker 5: and the right, but there are very important in terms divisions.
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Speaker 5: There's a division between the pro pro Putin people and
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Speaker 5: the anti Puotin people, and there's a division over sort
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Speaker 5: of responsible economic policy as well, and I think probably
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Speaker 5: some fundamental cultural divisions. If you look at the far
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Speaker 5: right in the Netherlands, for example, it's very pro gay
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Speaker 5: rights because it's basic critique.
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Speaker 1: But in some ways this is a topsy turvy conversation
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Speaker 1: because actually if you look at Maloney and her international allies,
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Speaker 1: you would say Ishi Sunac, you know, is her intellectual bedfellow, because.
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Speaker 5: They do seem to get on quite well.
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Speaker 1: And her and her Albania plan, which looks like some
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Speaker 1: European politicians are falling behind, which is, you know, the
5:39
Speaker 1: idea of having the immigrants processed off shore is partly
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Speaker 1: inspired by Rwanda. So there's a kind of topsy turviness
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Speaker 1: because you know, her mate, Rishi Sunac, he was doing
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Speaker 1: so badly in the opinion polls, potentially is leaving government.
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Speaker 1: But actually some of the ideas he's espoused in government
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Speaker 1: are those in the ascendant.
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Speaker 2: That shows again, I mean it's immigration as this absolutely
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Speaker 2: core driving force for some of this. But there has
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Speaker 2: been a question about whether Kiss Darmer will have anyone
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Speaker 2: to talk to at these summits. He will be the
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Speaker 2: exception if we see all of these sort of mainstream
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Speaker 2: centrists and right leaders go in the next few years.
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Speaker 5: That's the other topsy turbinus that Britain is completely out
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Speaker 5: of sync with Europe and may well be out of
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Speaker 5: sync with the United States as well. We may be
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Speaker 5: the one surviving area for liberal Democrats to look at.
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Speaker 1: What Kiss Darmer's foreign affairs spokesperson David Lammy is saying,
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Speaker 1: you know, regarding Trump, you know and others you know,
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Speaker 1: they are they are cognizant that they are going to
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Speaker 1: have to work with everybody.
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Speaker 5: Yes, Lammi is somewhat changed his tune on Trump.
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Speaker 2: I think well, I suspect. I think I have a
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Speaker 2: feeling partly from looking at our outlines for future weeks.
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Speaker 2: I think we'll be getting on incoming incoming days. So
7:04
Speaker 2: we should move to our conversation with Francisco Jubile, the
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Speaker 2: president of the Italian Conservative Foundation Fondazioni Tartarella. Francesca, thank
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Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. We are fascinated looking
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Speaker 2: at Georgia Moloni at the recent g seventh summit and
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Speaker 2: obviously in previous months, really comfortable in her position as
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Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Italy and successful both domestically, and it
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Speaker 2: seems at these international summits. So I guess the obvious
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Speaker 2: question is what's the secret of her success?
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Speaker 4: I think that Georgia Meloni is becoming here by here
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Speaker 4: an important leader not only for Italy, not only for
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Speaker 4: our country, and not only for the Italian conservative right,
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Speaker 4: but also for the European Lensks, especially after the result
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Speaker 4: of the European elections, because we saw that the result
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Speaker 4: of the President of.
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Speaker 6: France, Emanuel Macron was not a good result.
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Speaker 4: In fact, the result of Simble More National and Marie
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Speaker 4: lepen was quite good, and the same is for all
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Speaker 4: of Schortz, the leader of Germany. And in the case
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Speaker 4: of Italy, Georgia Meloney had a really important result, not
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Speaker 4: only as the leader of Fertality Italian, the main Italian
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Speaker 4: center right party, but also for all the Italian government.
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Speaker 4: And after that we are entering in a new phase
8:41
Speaker 4: for the European Union right now there are some important
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Speaker 4: discussion for the president of the European Commission and the
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Speaker 4: Georgia Meronic can play an important role as Prime Minister
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Speaker 4: of Italy, but also as the president of the.
8:56
Speaker 6: E CR and the leader of the main Itally party.
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Speaker 2: I guess one thing we should sort of understand is
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Speaker 2: whether we're even describing her in the right way. You know,
9:06
Speaker 2: we talk about far right, and when she came to power,
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Speaker 2: we were very focused on her origins. But I wonder
9:14
Speaker 2: whether she represents something different that's not a traditional kind
9:19
Speaker 2: of conservatism or certainly traditional far right.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is quite an important point. Usually when someone
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Speaker 4: especially abroad, but not only abroad, sometimes also in our country,
9:33
Speaker 4: want to describe or sometimes attack Georgia Miloney or in
9:38
Speaker 4: general some politicians that are part of the Italian right,
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Speaker 4: they describe them as a neo fascist or some people
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Speaker 4: that are linked with some fascist idea, and I think
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Speaker 4: this is not correct and this is not the correct
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Speaker 4: way to try to understand what is happening in our country.
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Speaker 4: The truth is that the right that is represented by
10:03
Speaker 4: Georgia Meloni is a conservative right. When I use the
10:07
Speaker 4: word conservative is quite important to make an extinction between
10:12
Speaker 4: the Latin conservatism and the Italian conservatism and the American
10:17
Speaker 4: and English conservatism, because there are some important difference, for example,
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Speaker 4: on the economic issues. Our conservatism is more focused on
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Speaker 4: welfare state, for example, and the British and the American
10:30
Speaker 4: conservatism is more focused, for example, on some classical liberals ideas.
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Speaker 4: So there are some difference, of course, but in general,
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Speaker 4: the correct way to try to understand the why George
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Speaker 4: Meloni is becoming so important and so voted in our
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Speaker 4: country is because she's trying also to talk with the
10:49
Speaker 4: lower class.
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Speaker 6: That in the past voted for the left. But right now,
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Speaker 6: if we saw also the result in the main city,
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Speaker 6: for example, in the city center of Roma, or the
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Speaker 6: people vote for the left. If we we go to.
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Speaker 4: For example, some difficult areas of the of Roma, we
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Speaker 4: see that in this part of the city the people
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Speaker 4: decide to vote.
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Speaker 6: For for Formeloni, and this is quite interesting.
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Speaker 4: So I think that it's important to try to analyze
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Speaker 4: in a deeper way what is the success of JN.
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Speaker 6: Maloney.
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Speaker 1: I don't know how much of following British politics, but
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Speaker 1: who would you put Georgia Maloney closer to Brittie Sunac,
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Speaker 1: who's obviously a friend of hers, or Nigel Farah, she
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Speaker 1: leads the Reform Party.
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Speaker 4: I think definitely that she's closer to the Conservative Party,
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Speaker 4: the Tories, and to Sunak then to Farajef. There are
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Speaker 4: many points in common between Miloni and the Sunaco or
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Speaker 4: in general Miloni and the Conservative Party. But how I
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Speaker 4: say to you before, there are also some difference because
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Speaker 4: of course, to be conservative in Italy is different than
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Speaker 4: being a conservative in the UK, because our conservatism is
12:05
Speaker 4: quite link for example, with the Catholic traditions. So when
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Speaker 4: we talk about the ethic themes, for example, in our
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Speaker 4: conservatism is quite close with the vision of the Catholic Church,
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Speaker 4: and this is a big difference with the Tories. But
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Speaker 4: in the same time, when we talk about Parage, I
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Speaker 4: think in Italy we use a word there is not
12:28
Speaker 4: a translation in English. The word is Soverignismo, is meaning
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Speaker 4: probably national populism or something like that. And when we
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Speaker 4: talk about Farage we can talk more than a conservative leader.
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Speaker 4: We can talk about a national populist leader. So I
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Speaker 4: think that Menoni is definitely closer to the Conservative Party.
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Speaker 5: You talked about her ability to reach beyond the sort
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Speaker 5: of metropolitan elites who live in the middle of Romee
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Speaker 5: two ordinary people. How can she do that? What are
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Speaker 5: the things that bind the conservative leadership to the working
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Speaker 5: class voter.
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Speaker 4: In the bigger city or in the city center of
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Speaker 4: the bigger city, and the people vote for the left
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Speaker 4: or the center or left. When we go to the
13:18
Speaker 4: neighborhood that are more close to some problems, for example
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Speaker 4: with the security, with the migration, the people decided to
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Speaker 4: vote for some a conservative party, and the same is
13:31
Speaker 4: for example in some smaller city in our country, people
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Speaker 4: decided to prefer and to vote for Georgia Maloney and
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Speaker 4: to vote for the center right a coalition because they
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Speaker 4: feel that the answers that Georgia Maloney give for example
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Speaker 4: with the migration problem, for example, on economic issues, for example,
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Speaker 4: on the European Union issues.
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Speaker 6: There is a big debate in our country about.
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Speaker 4: The green police made by the European Union, especially for
14:03
Speaker 4: the decision to stop in the engine motors in two
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Speaker 4: thousand and thirty five, and because of that the people
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Speaker 4: decide to vote for gentlemen only because also the lower
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Speaker 4: class think that the answers that the Conservatives and the
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Speaker 4: right gave to their problem.
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Speaker 6: Right now is closer to them than.
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Speaker 5: The left, So liberalism is becoming an elite project. It's
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Speaker 5: captured by the rich.
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Speaker 6: I make you an example. I live in Roma.
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Speaker 4: Roma is probably the bigger capital in the European Union
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Speaker 4: or in European general, with the worst public transportation because
14:44
Speaker 4: unfortunately the underground in Rome is not working as well.
14:47
Speaker 4: And every time that they are trying to do some
14:49
Speaker 4: new projects, they discover some ancient Roman ruins, so it's
14:52
Speaker 4: quite difficult to build a bigger underground. And in Roma
14:58
Speaker 4: there is a left. This measure, and the idea of
15:02
Speaker 4: the measure was to create a bigger zone in which
15:07
Speaker 4: the car couldn't hunterer and this of course creates some
15:11
Speaker 4: problem not to the rich people which lived in the
15:14
Speaker 4: center of the city and they can move walking or
15:17
Speaker 4: by taxi or by scooter, but this creates some big
15:21
Speaker 4: problem for the poor people which live in some area
15:26
Speaker 4: not near the city center, and they must take their
15:30
Speaker 4: car to go to work, and of course they are
15:32
Speaker 4: angry against the measure because of that.
15:36
Speaker 2: It is interesting that there's a similar kind of issue
15:38
Speaker 2: in the UK around twenty miles per hour limits, which
15:41
Speaker 2: is a popular campaigning force for many in our election Francisco.
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Speaker 1: Where does this end?
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Speaker 2: Because is that the question? So where does this end?
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Speaker 1: In that Georgie Maloney looks like her deficit has gone
15:56
Speaker 1: up to seven point two percent.
15:57
Speaker 2: You'll correct me if I'm wrong.
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Speaker 1: So you you've very lucidly outlined how pro welfare spending
16:03
Speaker 1: she is, and that's clearly important to her coalition of voters.
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Speaker 1: Can she afford to keep on being ultra popular?
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Speaker 6: You mean about economy or you mean in general economy?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, under the procedures, you know, the fiscal rules for
16:17
Speaker 2: the European Union, they could well have to do. She
16:20
Speaker 2: should could have to do some very tough things which
16:22
Speaker 2: in the past have overturned Italian governments on a very
16:25
Speaker 2: regular basis.
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Speaker 4: This is quite an important point. I mean, our economy
16:30
Speaker 4: is a good economy. We have the third economy of
16:33
Speaker 4: European Union. We have a private incomes that is quite good.
16:38
Speaker 4: Most of the Italians they own their house. We have
16:42
Speaker 4: quite a strong bank system. So our economy is a
16:45
Speaker 4: good economy. But our private economy is economy. Our problem
16:49
Speaker 4: is the public economy.
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Speaker 6: And when we.
16:51
Speaker 4: Talk about the public economy, we talk about the state
16:54
Speaker 4: which have a really hiked the public debt, and the
16:59
Speaker 4: problem of our public debt is that the people, the
17:02
Speaker 4: Italians and also the politician think about our public debuta
17:07
Speaker 4: as something that is of no one. In reality, the
17:10
Speaker 4: public debt is a debt of everyone. The bigger problem
17:13
Speaker 4: of our country compared to the high debty, is the
17:19
Speaker 4: lower the possibility of growth of our economy. If we
17:24
Speaker 4: we do in a comparasion between a high public debt
17:28
Speaker 4: and the low growth of our economy, this can create
17:32
Speaker 4: some problem. But I have to say this is not
17:35
Speaker 4: a problem of Meloni. This is the problem of everyone, which.
17:38
Speaker 2: We leave with respect. Though it's going to be her problem.
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Speaker 2: I mean, will that mark the end of her honeymoon
17:43
Speaker 2: with the voters when she actually has to make the
17:45
Speaker 2: same tough decisions about this to manage this big stock
17:48
Speaker 2: of debt that every government in Italy has had to
17:51
Speaker 2: deal with for the last twenty or thirty years, and
17:53
Speaker 2: has actually managed to, you know, just about prevent from
17:57
Speaker 2: spiraling out of control. Has stepped back from the BIS
18:00
Speaker 2: quite a few times, each time by making very tough
18:03
Speaker 2: decisions that she has sofa been quite reluctant to make.
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Speaker 4: Yes, I think that luckily the most the toughest decisions
18:12
Speaker 4: were made ten years ago, especially in twenty eleven after
18:19
Speaker 4: Monty government. It was a technical government and he made
18:22
Speaker 4: many tough decisions. So right now the public debty is
18:27
Speaker 4: really height but it's more or less under control. Of course,
18:31
Speaker 4: the COVID period didn't help us and didn't help everyone.
18:36
Speaker 4: So I think that Meloney she knows and she understands
18:40
Speaker 4: that she doesn't have the opportunity of doing many economic
18:45
Speaker 4: measures that are really in fervor in helping the in
18:50
Speaker 4: the Italians, for example, cut the taxation.
18:54
Speaker 6: But if she she.
18:56
Speaker 4: Won't, for example, introduced new taxation, this can be something
19:00
Speaker 4: good for example, and I think that she will manage
19:04
Speaker 4: in Hinita and the economy is of course quite an
19:07
Speaker 4: important issue, but there are other issues that are important
19:11
Speaker 4: for the Italian electorate. For example, the migrant crisis is
19:14
Speaker 4: the topic that is quite important, especially in the south,
19:18
Speaker 4: in the south of Italy foreign politics, and I think
19:21
Speaker 4: that Menoni is managed quite well on this topic. And
19:26
Speaker 4: of course she also has to manage in the European
19:29
Speaker 4: Union contest, where also the economic situation of Germany, that
19:34
Speaker 4: is the main economy of European Union, is becoming world
19:37
Speaker 4: compared to three years ago.
19:39
Speaker 2: Francisco to Bila. I'll be very interested to see her
19:42
Speaker 2: next few budgets, how she manages to square the circle.
19:46
Speaker 2: But in the meantime, and then we'll have you back.
19:48
Speaker 2: But in the meantime, thank you very much for joining us.
19:51
Speaker 6: Thank you, it was a pleasure.
20:01
Speaker 2: And now, as they say, for something completely different. Janasparafukis
20:05
Speaker 2: Greece's Finance minister for six months in twenty fifteen, negotiating
20:09
Speaker 2: on behalf of the Greek government during the Greek debt crisis,
20:12
Speaker 2: who has also been secretary general of the Democracy in
20:15
Speaker 2: Europe Movement twenty twenty five, a left wing pan European
20:19
Speaker 2: political party he co founded in twenty sixteen. Janisparafuck is
20:24
Speaker 2: very good to have you physically in the studio. Thanks
20:26
Speaker 2: for joining us on Vota Nomics.
20:28
Speaker 7: It's a great pleasure.
20:30
Speaker 2: We've got lots of things to talk to you about,
20:31
Speaker 2: but we are focusing on this program on the rise
20:35
Speaker 2: of the populist right in Europe. I guess you know.
20:39
Speaker 2: One obvious question is why he is right wing populism
20:43
Speaker 2: so much more successful than left wing populism at the moment.
20:47
Speaker 7: Because it's authentic. I don't believe you can be left
20:50
Speaker 7: wing and the populist, because my definition of populism, whoor
20:54
Speaker 7: anderstand populism is to be all things to all people,
20:57
Speaker 7: make ausers of promises and then jump on a soapbox
21:01
Speaker 7: and being jingoistic and call upon people to trust you
21:06
Speaker 7: to make things great again and dot dot I won't
21:10
Speaker 7: go on, but that if you do that, then you're
21:13
Speaker 7: not the left winger in my view, You're not a humanist,
21:16
Speaker 7: you're not facing the truth, and you use up the
21:21
Speaker 7: people's vote against the people. So this is a kind
21:26
Speaker 7: of contest I have with other leftists would disagree with me.
21:30
Speaker 7: The two words left and popularism, you put them together,
21:33
Speaker 7: you end up with an incongruity. And so you know,
21:36
Speaker 7: when the left tries populism, it becomes ridiculous. When the
21:40
Speaker 7: right become populist and become fascist, and they are very
21:43
Speaker 7: successful as we have seen during the Middle War period
21:46
Speaker 7: the left, and that of course is the end of
21:48
Speaker 7: the left when the left, the.
21:51
Speaker 5: Left are too honest to be populists.
21:54
Speaker 7: The left should be honest and therefore should avoid populism
21:58
Speaker 7: in its pursuit of.
22:00
Speaker 2: Popular With the populist approach, even by your definition, we
22:05
Speaker 2: have parties that are offering a lot to all people,
22:09
Speaker 2: particularly working people, who feel they've been left out, excluded
22:13
Speaker 2: from the direction that modern economies have gone. If what's
22:18
Speaker 2: being promised by your description is not possible or not
22:24
Speaker 2: possible without a lot of other difficult sacrifices, does that
22:28
Speaker 2: mean you think these these leaders are going to eventually
22:32
Speaker 2: come to grips, have to sort of face reality and
22:35
Speaker 2: become a cropper. Where do you see this going? Because
22:37
Speaker 2: they had doing very well with the brand of populism
22:41
Speaker 2: that we've been hearing.
22:42
Speaker 7: This is a brilliant question. I think it all depends
22:45
Speaker 7: on how many levers they have access to. So compare
22:50
Speaker 7: and contrast Georgia Mloney with Victor Roban. Because Allban is
22:54
Speaker 7: not in the Europe, he has more leavers to pull,
22:58
Speaker 7: so he troubled the minimum wage. He did was also
23:02
Speaker 7: lilily did. In other words, he looked after the working class.
23:05
Speaker 7: But it was a fasting bargain in the sense that
23:07
Speaker 7: I will look after you. You keep your mouth shut authoritarianism,
23:12
Speaker 7: You make me great again, so that I make Hungary
23:14
Speaker 7: great again. We turn against the foreigners, the Jews, the Muslims,
23:18
Speaker 7: at them the other It doesn't matter, so he had
23:21
Speaker 7: more degrees with him to do that. Georgie Milan doesn't
23:24
Speaker 7: because she's in the Euros. She has an unsustainable public debt,
23:27
Speaker 7: she has a banking system which is ricketty, So she
23:29
Speaker 7: simply follows Maria Dragi's policies, no difference to married Drage
23:34
Speaker 7: with weaponized misanthropy when it comes to migrants, foreigners, lesbian's, gays,
23:41
Speaker 7: you know, Walke and all that. But her days are
23:45
Speaker 7: numbered as a populist, as a right wing neo fascist populist,
23:48
Speaker 7: because she doesn't have the livers. She cannot look after
23:51
Speaker 7: the people the way that she's been promising them. If
23:53
Speaker 7: anything she's doing, you know, taking away protections that have
23:58
Speaker 7: been there from the previous governments.
24:01
Speaker 2: Well days might be numbered as representing a far right
24:06
Speaker 2: populist position, but as as a different kind of right
24:11
Speaker 2: wing but sort of normalized leaders could have.
24:15
Speaker 7: Quite yes, if he becomes a Bolusconi, who is somebody
24:18
Speaker 7: on the center left who again is misogynist, racist and
24:23
Speaker 7: so on. So a little bit of Trump, but with
24:26
Speaker 7: Mario drag economics new liberal economics. The mi great fear
24:31
Speaker 7: is that we are now seeing in Europe because of
24:35
Speaker 7: a fragmentation of the European Union, the single market, the
24:39
Speaker 7: politics this European Union parliament is is going to be
24:44
Speaker 7: completely incapable of effectively exercising any parliamentary process. My fear
24:50
Speaker 7: is that you're going to have a right wing, neo
24:54
Speaker 7: fascist populist right that manages to ditch austerity, to ditch
24:59
Speaker 7: the new liberal agenda, completely, erect new borders, erect new tariffs,
25:07
Speaker 7: and you know, channel a lot of money into armaments,
25:12
Speaker 7: which may have an economy impact, but the most important
25:16
Speaker 7: impact will be the coalescence with nationalism, and that could
25:21
Speaker 7: be successful, and if that happens, Europe is simply not
25:24
Speaker 7: going to be a place that will want to live in.
25:27
Speaker 2: Is a key potential part of this the French election,
25:32
Speaker 2: because if you look at Marine Le penn currently they
25:36
Speaker 2: do have a very old collection of policies, but very
25:39
Speaker 2: leftist economic policies.
25:41
Speaker 7: The don't call fascism leftism.
25:43
Speaker 2: But if you look at her economic policies.
25:45
Speaker 7: That's also Leni was a socialist and then he became
25:48
Speaker 7: a fascist. And what was the deal I will protect
25:51
Speaker 7: you introduced the first pension system in continental Europe, universal one.
25:56
Speaker 7: He increased wages and then he clamped down on trade unions,
26:00
Speaker 7: he climbed down a democratic processes and effectively started the
26:05
Speaker 7: process that led to the Second World War together with
26:07
Speaker 7: his friend Hitler. I call this fascist. This is the definition.
26:10
Speaker 2: What do you think about the significance of the French election?
26:12
Speaker 2: I mean, where does that? Where does where does that
26:15
Speaker 2: fit into the kind of that darker vision that you
26:18
Speaker 2: just painted.
26:18
Speaker 7: Well, let's let me try to lighten up the mood.
26:24
Speaker 7: I hope, I hope that Macron's strategy, even though I'm
26:28
Speaker 7: completely opposed to everything he's been doing in the last
26:30
Speaker 7: few years, but I hope his strategy of bringing him
26:33
Speaker 7: bringing them into essentially government through cohabitation. He's trying to
26:38
Speaker 7: do what Shirak did with Spend, what Mitterrand did with Iraq,
26:43
Speaker 7: effectingly to defunct them by making them less popular through
26:48
Speaker 7: allowing them to occupy ministries. How that works, but I
26:52
Speaker 7: feel it might not. I'm very worried that they may
26:56
Speaker 7: actually succeed because, let's face it, the finance, the public
26:59
Speaker 7: fire answers for France, just like Italy is and the
27:02
Speaker 7: public finances of Germany for that matter, are not consistent
27:05
Speaker 7: with the fiscal rules. So something we'll have to give
27:09
Speaker 7: Now if Bardella together with le Pen with the collapse of.
27:15
Speaker 2: His young the young leader, he might be the prime minister.
27:18
Speaker 7: Who's my nightmare personally, because under the two Lapins, at
27:22
Speaker 7: least they were not that palatable to the young. Now
27:25
Speaker 7: this is a guy who is quite photogenic, he has
27:28
Speaker 7: style quality, he's young, he comes from a working class area,
27:30
Speaker 7: he speaks well. He doesn't look like a fascist, even
27:33
Speaker 7: though he is. That's why he's my nightmare, because he's
27:36
Speaker 7: affect You.
27:38
Speaker 5: Mentioned the young. One of the striking things about right
27:42
Speaker 5: wing thought or right wing movements on the continent rather
27:45
Speaker 5: than in Britain, is how popular they are with younger
27:48
Speaker 5: people and how they're able to attract quite as you say,
27:51
Speaker 5: photogenic and dynamic young politicians. Why is that because with
27:57
Speaker 5: the left failed.
27:58
Speaker 7: This is the fault of the left. Let's face it.
28:03
Speaker 7: The worst thing that can happen to democracy is to
28:05
Speaker 7: have fascist presenting the anti systemic trend. Twenty fifteen, we
28:10
Speaker 7: get elected on an anti austerity program. I personally had
28:16
Speaker 7: proposals for the IMF and the European Center blank, which
28:18
Speaker 7: I thought were very sensible in terms of dead swaps
28:21
Speaker 7: and nothing very radical, together with an anti asterity program,
28:24
Speaker 7: and we said that we will be elected and we
28:27
Speaker 7: will not budge. We are not getting taken other credit card,
28:30
Speaker 7: other conditions that are completely financially unsustainable, and you don't
28:33
Speaker 7: have to be left to agree with that. And we buckled.
28:37
Speaker 7: And then our own government after I left, I have
28:41
Speaker 7: to say that, but who cares about me? Our own
28:43
Speaker 7: government practiced the worst kind of a stity, the worst
28:47
Speaker 7: kind of over taxing small business, everyone in a as
28:54
Speaker 7: if in a part of a plan to make the
28:57
Speaker 7: place unviable. And then then is the domino effect, because
29:01
Speaker 7: the left wing in Spain po Demos collapse as a
29:05
Speaker 7: result of not wanting to be you know, cities are
29:09
Speaker 7: number two the linking. In Germany, the French left collapses,
29:14
Speaker 7: and what is left the populist right, which I call
29:19
Speaker 7: neo fascists, being the only ones that are out there
29:24
Speaker 7: suggesting something different. I mean, whether you're here in Britain
29:27
Speaker 7: today with Suna and Starma, or whether you are looking
29:31
Speaker 7: at the policies of the ESPEE, all of Shults and Merge,
29:37
Speaker 7: the differences between them are tiny. And it's not as
29:41
Speaker 7: if Europe is flourishing. Europe has had a fifteen year
29:46
Speaker 7: dearth of investment. That's why we're following behind the Chinese.
29:49
Speaker 7: We have not invested in modern technologies, any kind of
29:53
Speaker 7: modern technology for fifteen to twenty years in Europe. So
29:57
Speaker 7: this discontent. Who is going to pick up up the
30:01
Speaker 7: votes from that discontent? The only anti systemic forces we
30:05
Speaker 7: of the left have gone to ground. We try to
30:08
Speaker 7: bend over backwards to accommodate the new liberal policies. I
30:12
Speaker 7: remember telling Shoubler once, I said, look, I know you
30:15
Speaker 7: don't like seeing me in front of you, because.
30:17
Speaker 2: If the German finance minister.
30:19
Speaker 7: Yeah, because you know I'm a lefty, but you know
30:21
Speaker 7: what we're europeanis and we're Democrats, and if you squash
30:25
Speaker 7: the living daylights out of our people, you know, to
30:27
Speaker 7: get rid of us, you're going to end up with
30:29
Speaker 7: fascists on the other side of the table. And I
30:32
Speaker 7: think that was right.
30:33
Speaker 2: But kase Armer is of the left.
30:36
Speaker 1: He's very close.
30:38
Speaker 7: This is what I want, which I find preposterous.
30:42
Speaker 5: Right, Ok, he's not of the left.
30:46
Speaker 7: That's all a bad thing. I mean, I'm not there
30:49
Speaker 7: to tell it that. You know, believe that everybody should
30:50
Speaker 7: be from the left, But I just don't agree that
30:52
Speaker 7: he's from the left.
30:53
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's clear. Let's look at immigration where
30:57
Speaker 1: he is trying to forge another path where he's saying
31:00
Speaker 1: obviously he's not going to renew freedom of movement and
31:02
Speaker 1: so on, but he is saying that they will negotiate
31:04
Speaker 1: returns agreements with the continent. What is We've heard from
31:07
Speaker 1: another guest earlier in the program, and you've threaded through
31:10
Speaker 1: everything you've said, this kind of immigration seems to be
31:13
Speaker 1: the stimulus for some of the rise of these parties.
31:16
Speaker 1: What would be the other way to deal with the
31:19
Speaker 1: worries about immigration that so many electorates around Europe are
31:22
Speaker 1: clearly feeling.
31:24
Speaker 7: How about ditching a racism light because this is what
31:28
Speaker 7: Kirstarmy is doing. Personally, I don't know here. Personally, I
31:32
Speaker 7: suspect he and I would agree on immigration being a
31:37
Speaker 7: blessing not a curse. Europe is getting old. For a
31:42
Speaker 7: thousand years, we've been populating the rest of the earth.
31:45
Speaker 7: We've been migrating everywhere, sometimes with guns and you know,
31:49
Speaker 7: white settlers. So suddenly we have a problem with immigration.
31:54
Speaker 7: What has happened is that demographics have changed. We're getting
31:56
Speaker 7: all people are coming towards US, and that should have
31:59
Speaker 7: been fine if we had a migration policy. Kirstama, however,
32:05
Speaker 7: being a relatively spineless politician, is not going to stand
32:08
Speaker 7: up to the parajes and to the sonic sent to
32:11
Speaker 7: the braver Mans and say, you know what, we need
32:13
Speaker 7: immigration and we're going to create a policy which is
32:17
Speaker 7: simultaneously financial in the economically viable and humane and consistent
32:22
Speaker 7: with international law. He's not saying that, so he's trying
32:24
Speaker 7: to what happened, just like a steadicy light.
32:27
Speaker 2: Play that back though. I mean, one of the things
32:29
Speaker 2: you just argued was if you don't give a key
32:32
Speaker 2: chunk of the electorate something at the table, if you
32:35
Speaker 2: force austerity down their throats, then you're going to get
32:37
Speaker 2: something worse down the road. I mean, you could make
32:40
Speaker 2: exactly the same argument about keeping immigration off the agenda
32:44
Speaker 2: for many years as sort of a coalition of the
32:47
Speaker 2: right and left mainstream across Europe, not just the UK.
32:51
Speaker 2: If you don't let people have a view or even
32:56
Speaker 2: discuss the scale the direction of immigration, you end up
33:01
Speaker 2: with something worse. And if you're a Democrat, you have
33:03
Speaker 2: to accept that there are people who feel that people
33:07
Speaker 2: don't feel the same way they see the economic benefit.
33:09
Speaker 2: Maybe they may also see it as an economic cost
33:12
Speaker 2: to them if it affects if it pushes down their wages.
33:16
Speaker 2: But they also see a cultural consequence which many people
33:19
Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with.
33:20
Speaker 5: There must be a differential economic impact of immigration as well,
33:23
Speaker 5: doesn't it. It's poorer people and benefit in many ways
33:27
Speaker 5: richer people.
33:28
Speaker 7: Of course if you practice astadity, lots of people in
33:31
Speaker 7: But let me ask you a question, because because I
33:35
Speaker 7: think you're perfectly right, I don't believe in keeping important
33:39
Speaker 7: issues like this off the table. I believing in a
33:42
Speaker 7: vigorous debate.
33:44
Speaker 2: But to engage in that conversation you're actually saying is racism?
33:47
Speaker 7: Like no, no, not at all.
33:48
Speaker 2: Well that is what I think. That's what the lidbody
33:50
Speaker 2: would say. They're part of the conversation.
33:52
Speaker 7: No, I don't think it's engaging with the conversation when
33:54
Speaker 7: they effectively say that we will manage to find a
33:57
Speaker 7: way of limiting immigration which is more efficient than the
34:00
Speaker 7: Tories if you really want to engage. And here's I'm
34:05
Speaker 7: coming to your question too. Look, I remember I was
34:07
Speaker 7: in Doncaster during the Brexit campaign. I was campaigning against Brexit.
34:12
Speaker 7: As somebody who is not really a narmor of the
34:13
Speaker 7: U confusing people. And I remember there was you know,
34:19
Speaker 7: there was this wonderful older woman who came to me
34:23
Speaker 7: and said, Yannis, she wanted to engage in it's custo
34:25
Speaker 7: about immigration. As you say, I am not a racist
34:29
Speaker 7: im internationalism. I left Winger. But you know, my building
34:32
Speaker 7: is now full of Romanian boys who live for in
34:36
Speaker 7: one room and they can afford because there are four
34:39
Speaker 7: boys to bid runts up and we cannot afford to
34:44
Speaker 7: compete with them. And then I asked her question. I said,
34:48
Speaker 7: so tell me the story of this building. It used
34:50
Speaker 7: to be a council house. It was sold off to
34:53
Speaker 7: the private sector. So the problem is not the Romanian boys,
34:56
Speaker 7: is that these councilor houses were sold. Now they're part
35:00
Speaker 7: of a rent maximizing a reenteer frenzy, and council houses
35:06
Speaker 7: have not been built to replace the old stock of
35:08
Speaker 7: council house. So if you really want as a labor party,
35:11
Speaker 7: as a progressive, to engage with people, you have to
35:13
Speaker 7: take very seriously what this woman said about the fact
35:15
Speaker 7: that now she has a building full of Romanian boys,
35:18
Speaker 7: which actually she actually liked, so she was not even
35:20
Speaker 7: a racist to call her a racist is just preposterous.
35:23
Speaker 7: It's a totally unacceptable It's like Hillary Clinton calling Trump's
35:27
Speaker 7: supporters deplorables. No, you have to engage and you have
35:30
Speaker 7: to explain that, you know what, that was a mistake.
35:31
Speaker 7: Now we need to build, you know, council housing. The
35:36
Speaker 7: solution is not to get rid of the Romanians. This
35:39
Speaker 7: is going to make Doncaster even poorer and center. That
35:43
Speaker 7: is the kind of debate I would like to see
35:45
Speaker 7: the Labor Party engage in.
35:46
Speaker 5: The Labor Party would claim that it is in favor
35:50
Speaker 5: of activist government. It's going to have a national energy
35:53
Speaker 5: company that it's going to have a national investment scheme
35:56
Speaker 5: that is going to be much more and.
35:58
Speaker 2: Have a big expansion in a hay building.
36:00
Speaker 7: Indeed, money come from nothing there.
36:04
Speaker 5: Do you think there's nothing there from the Labor Party
36:06
Speaker 5: that's intentions?
36:08
Speaker 7: But you know how many comments? So I read stuff.
36:11
Speaker 7: I have this bad habit and I read very carefully
36:14
Speaker 7: both the manifesto of the twenty twenty four manifesto and
36:17
Speaker 7: what instead of fiscal studies said, And what I see
36:21
Speaker 7: is a steadity baked in. I don't see the money
36:23
Speaker 7: coming in anywhere. They're going to have to affect cuts,
36:27
Speaker 7: and they will affect cuts that are brutal in areas
36:30
Speaker 7: that will be very helpful to the most to the
36:33
Speaker 7: weakest of people.
36:34
Speaker 2: What should the left be learning from the last few
36:38
Speaker 2: years in Europe and particularly when you look at, say,
36:40
Speaker 2: for example, the European elections.
36:42
Speaker 7: My nightmare is that because we have messed up with
36:45
Speaker 7: the left, have messed up that now the coalescence between
36:51
Speaker 7: the most rabbit and Australian and trumpest aspects or segments
36:59
Speaker 7: of the old Tory Party in this country, but also
37:02
Speaker 7: in France, in German and so we will go into bed
37:06
Speaker 7: with any of Ussists and with the Left are irrelevant
37:12
Speaker 7: because we've been tried, We've been tested, and we failed
37:16
Speaker 7: our tests. And we are ourselves recoiling into identity politics,
37:22
Speaker 7: into fighting one another as to how do you define
37:25
Speaker 7: a woman? Which is a very interesting philosophical topic. But
37:27
Speaker 7: the fascists love it when we recoil in that manner
37:31
Speaker 7: into identity politics. That is my nightmare. So the one
37:36
Speaker 7: thing I'm trying to do as a Left is to
37:38
Speaker 7: dem to divide a democracy Urope. Moving across Europe. You know,
37:41
Speaker 7: we have a small, small movement, but we are held
37:44
Speaker 7: a little bit in influential amongst the left. Is to
37:47
Speaker 7: ask the big questions again, you know, how do you
37:50
Speaker 7: combine combine investment with social policies, how do you break
37:56
Speaker 7: down that alliance between austerelity and and racism and hatred
38:02
Speaker 7: of the other, of the foreigner. What do we do
38:05
Speaker 7: about Europe turning into a war union? With the idiotic
38:10
Speaker 7: concept that since the Green Deal failed, we are gained
38:15
Speaker 7: now to develop through spending on arms and developing a
38:20
Speaker 7: military industrial complex in Europe, which we never will. But
38:23
Speaker 7: you know, we need to tackle these things. We need
38:26
Speaker 7: to take a break, be self critical, and as you
38:30
Speaker 7: said before.
38:30
Speaker 2: I think you're going to get a break at least
38:32
Speaker 2: in many parts of Europe.
38:33
Speaker 7: We are already having a break. But we must not
38:36
Speaker 7: go into self referential you know, identity politics becoming irrelevant
38:42
Speaker 7: with glee.
38:44
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
38:45
Speaker 7: Well, thank you.
38:54
Speaker 2: So that was That's quite a lot.
38:56
Speaker 5: Of meat, definitely outspoken and some very interesting analysis. Not
39:01
Speaker 5: my politics, but some of the analysis I think holds
39:04
Speaker 5: true whatever your politics are.
39:05
Speaker 2: Well, the idea that the left is going to be
39:08
Speaker 2: almost sort of bringing its hands on the sidelines for
39:12
Speaker 2: quite a long time and somewhat irrelevant certainly in Europe.
39:17
Speaker 2: Question mark about the UK because it depends who you
39:19
Speaker 2: consider to be left.
39:21
Speaker 1: But it's complicated if you think about the last election,
39:23
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen election where Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto did very well.
39:27
Speaker 1: So actually lots of this is twenty nineteen.
39:30
Speaker 2: Well yeah, no, everything Well, there was that point about
39:32
Speaker 2: the individual policies in it were individually popular, but labeling
39:36
Speaker 2: it labor and saying you were going to do it
39:39
Speaker 2: all together was not a credible propositions along with Corbyn.
39:42
Speaker 1: And that's one of the complexities about and you say that,
39:45
Speaker 1: you heard it a little bit with Francesco around Actually
39:48
Speaker 1: in Italy, her politics is grounded in what appeals to
39:53
Speaker 1: the lower class and so on. I hate the phrase
39:54
Speaker 1: lower class, but he used it, so we have to
39:56
Speaker 1: use it the less well off. That plus twenty nineteen
40:00
Speaker 1: Corbyn's manifesto doing quite well, and then also a little
40:03
Speaker 1: bit further back than that, but actually some of the
40:05
Speaker 1: Theresa May manifesto was not a million miles away from
40:07
Speaker 1: it either in terms of you know, have to reach
40:09
Speaker 1: out and appeal to the people who feel they've been
40:12
Speaker 1: left behind by globalization.
40:13
Speaker 2: Well and That's why I think it's going to be
40:14
Speaker 2: this key question about how do these sort of these
40:18
Speaker 2: outside forces far right, however you describe them, when they're
40:23
Speaker 2: in government, how do they govern? Do they, as he claims,
40:27
Speaker 2: end up or at least as he fears, end up
40:30
Speaker 2: going down a profoundly kind of authoritarian even anti European
40:36
Speaker 2: Union sort of divisive road, or as looked a bit
40:42
Speaker 2: what Georgia Maloney has been doing, do they more become
40:46
Speaker 2: a different face of the right, saying things that we
40:50
Speaker 2: don't necessarily agree with on cultural issues, but fundamentally not
40:55
Speaker 2: challenging the fundamental the institutions of Europe.
41:00
Speaker 5: The fundamental problem is that centrist liberalism has become a
41:04
Speaker 5: philosophy of the elites, of the ruling classes of people
41:09
Speaker 5: who are doing quite well out of globalization, has quite
41:12
Speaker 5: well out of the status quo. And if that's the case,
41:17
Speaker 5: you find it very very difficult to win elections, if
41:21
Speaker 5: not impossible. So liberalism, centrist liberalism, which I think everybody
41:24
Speaker 5: in this room would subscribe to, needs to find a
41:28
Speaker 5: way of reconnecting with poorer people. The best way, of course,
41:32
Speaker 5: is to improve the economy, raised productivity, show that you
41:35
Speaker 5: can actually get richer. But I think it also needs
41:38
Speaker 5: to be done on certain cultural issues, on the issue
41:40
Speaker 5: of nationalism versus globalism and things like that. And personally
41:45
Speaker 5: I believe in terms of taking back control of immigration.
41:49
Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm trying to find reasons to make
41:51
Speaker 1: Joannis Farafut focus feel less bad. But I think the
41:55
Speaker 1: other thing I think we have learned from recent politics
41:57
Speaker 1: is that things might look, you know, for a particular
42:02
Speaker 1: bit of the political spectrum or the one, and they
42:04
Speaker 1: flip very quickly. And it's the volatility and the fact
42:09
Speaker 1: that trends are coming. You know, everything is shortened and
42:12
Speaker 1: trends come and go so quickly.
42:14
Speaker 5: It wasn't that long ago to die. And perhaps you
42:15
Speaker 5: were writing articles about why is it that the Conservatives
42:18
Speaker 5: are the most powerful and successful party in human history?
42:22
Speaker 2: But that the thing, the longer you're in power, the
42:24
Speaker 2: more likely you're going to be destroyed. Reached a very
42:28
Speaker 2: sticky conclusion. All right, Well, I feel like we had
42:32
Speaker 2: something of a seminar on European political thoughts this week.
42:36
Speaker 2: Who knows what we'll do next week, but Allegra and Adrian,
42:39
Speaker 2: thank you very much, thanks for listening to this week's
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Speaker 2: Potonomics with Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by Me Stephanie
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Speaker 2: Flanders with Adrian Woldridge and Allegra Stratton. Produced by Summer
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Speaker 2: Sadi with booking support from Chris martloom Additional editing and
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Speaker 2: sound designed by Moses and dam Brendan Francis Noonan is
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Speaker 2: our executive producer. Stage Bowman is head of Bloomberg Podcast,
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Speaker 2: with special thanks to Francesco Jubilet, Jannies, Baro Fakis and
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Speaker 2: Qiarra Albinici. Do subscribe, rate, and review this show, especially
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