Latest / Banish the Lies: Outsmart Your Inner Critic / 64: The Truth About Grief That No One Taught Me | A Conversation with Karen Eichner on Love, Loss, and Living with Intention

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64: The Truth About Grief That No One Taught Me | A Conversation with Karen Eichner on Love, Loss, and Living with Intention · Banish the Lies: Outsmart Your Inner Critic

• 0:00
  Speaker: Hey friends.
• 0:00
  Speaker: Today I'm talking with Karen Eichner.
• 0:02
  Speaker: She's the creator of the workbook Grieving With Intention.
• 0:05
  Speaker: Karen lost her partner unexpectedly in 2023, and in the months and years that followed, she started questioning a lot of what she thought she knew about grief.
• 0:15
  Speaker: Karen isn't a therapist or a grief counselor, but she's someone who's lived through tremendous grief herself, and eventually she took what she was learning through that process and poured it into the Grieving With Intentions workbook, which is the kind of resource she wished that she had had access to herself.
• 0:35
  Speaker: In today's conversation, we explore some of the common myths around grief, what it means to carry love and loss at the same time, and how to better support someone who's grieving.
• 0:45
  Speaker: Here's my conversation with Karen Eichner Welcome to Banish the Lies, the podcast where we outsmart that sneaky inner critic and get closer to the truth that sets us free.
• 0:59
  Speaker: I'm Tania Cervoni, your host and fellow work in progress here to share real stories and small shifts that help you reclaim what fear and doubt once stole.
• 1:10
  Speaker: Let's jump in.
• 1:16
  Speaker: Welcome, friends, to another episode of Banish the Lies.
• 1:19
  Speaker: Today I'm joined by Karen Eichner.
• 1:21
  Speaker: Karen recently created a guided journal called Grieving With Intention, and this was inspired by her own journey after the unexpected loss of her boyfriend.
• 1:31
  Speaker: Karen, thank you so much for saying yes to this conversation.
• 1:34
  Speaker: I'm really excited to be here and talk to you about this.
• 1:37
  Speaker: Me too.
• 1:38
  Speaker: Now, when I first invited you to the podcast, I thought we were gonna have a conversation about grief, and we are definitely gonna have a conversation ab- about grief, but what was interesting is when I started reading your workbook, I realized that the wisdom in there doesn't just apply to grief and many types of loss, but it actually applies to many struggles in life.
• 2:02
  Speaker: And one of the other reasons I was excited for this discussion is because, a lot of what you write in your workbook challenges some of the assumptions I think many of us have about grief.
• 2:13
  Speaker: And one of those revolves around a common phrase that we hear a lot, and that is, "Time heals all wounds." But then I came across a sentence in your workbook that says, and I quote, "I do not believe grief is something that heals," and that fascinated me.
• 2:32
  Speaker: So I would love to understand a little bit more about what you mean by that.
• 2:36
  Speaker: Well, I remember when we first started talking about this and, and you mentioned, you know, about the myth that time heals all wounds, and the very first thing I said to you is, "I don't use the word healing in my workbook." I was shocked.
• 2:54
  Speaker: And- I was like, "Okay, tell me more." I use that word all the time, so.
• 2:59
  Speaker: And I, and I think everybody does, and I'm not saying it's, it's right or wrong.
• 3:02
  Speaker: I just found through my grief that grief is not something that you have to fix.
• 3:11
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 3:12
  Speaker: It's not an injury any more than love is something that you have to fix or heal.
• 3:18
  Speaker: It's just another side of that.
• 3:21
  Speaker: And while time can certainly shift your perspective in how you relate to your grief, I don't think it's something that will ever go away.
• 3:33
  Speaker: Mm.
• 3:34
  Speaker: And so it's not something...
• 3:35
  Speaker: There's no end game to grief.
• 3:38
  Speaker: There's no, "Oh, I reached this pinnacle because my grief has been healed." There's, there's nothing to heal.
• 3:45
  Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 3:47
  Speaker: You're right.
• 3:47
  Speaker: When we talk about healing, it does sound like there is a final destination.
• 3:52
  Speaker: It's like, "Okay, I'm there.
• 3:54
  Speaker: We're all healed." But I guess that's why I think you use the language, and correct me if I'm wrong but you talk about carrying love and grief together.
• 4:06
  Speaker: So I guess it's something that stays with you, but it just...
• 4:10
  Speaker: transforms over time?
• 4:13
  Speaker: It does.
• 4:13
  Speaker: I, I've often told people when I've talked about my grief that I feel like it changed my DNA.
• 4:21
  Speaker: Mm.
• 4:22
  Speaker: That I am not the same person I was before.
• 4:25
  Speaker: Not necessarily better or worse, just not the same, and that grief has become just an integral part of who I am, and I don't, I don't really want it to go away because it's, it's proof that I've loved, it's proof that I've lost, and that's all part of being human.
• 4:48
  Speaker: And that piece that you just said right now, I don't want it to go away, that makes me think about how we don't talk about grief in our society.
• 5:01
  Speaker: We're not taught how to respond to it, how to grieve, and in fact, that's another thing that really stood out in your workbook.
• 5:08
  Speaker: You talked about that not only are we not taught how to grieve, we're just simply taught how to get through things.
• 5:15
  Speaker: So I would love for you to say a little bit more about, how you think we're taught to get through things versus taught how to grieve.
• 5:24
  Speaker: Well, you're absolutely right.
• 5:26
  Speaker: We definitely do not talk about it, and this loss truly was, was one of the first major losses in my life.
• 5:34
  Speaker: I had been through a divorce, I had lost jobs, I had lost pets, but this was truly the most impactful loss I ever had.
• 5:42
  Speaker: So it was, it was my first time of, of really dealing with that type of loss, and I did not have the tools.
• 5:49
  Speaker: And what a lot of people tried to help me with was to get through it.
• 5:57
  Speaker: And that's just surviving it.
• 6:00
  Speaker: It's not really integrating it into your life.
• 6:04
  Speaker: I think the difference between getting through it and actually grieving is when you're grieving, you engage with that grief.
• 6:11
  Speaker: And you give yourself that permission to feel, and to just incorporate that grief into your soul, your heart, your, your being.
• 6:23
  Speaker: Getting through is surviving, and at some point that will come back.
• 6:30
  Speaker: It...
• 6:31
  Speaker: That will come back to haunt you, and you will have to face it at some point.
• 6:34
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 6:35
  Speaker: When I think of getting through, I have this, image, you know, the expression of white-knuckling it.
• 6:39
  Speaker: Like, you're- Mm-hmm forcing through something, and Just listening to you talk about the grieving process, it feels like an experience.
• 6:49
  Speaker: Like, you're actually, you're living it.
• 6:51
  Speaker: You're engaging with it.
• 6:53
  Speaker: And i'm gonna quote you again.
• 6:54
  Speaker: I've got lots of quotes from the workbook.
• 6:56
  Speaker: This one here where you said, "You cannot move through what you will not feel." Now, that resonated so deeply because in my own experience, I've often felt that, you need to feel it to heal it.
• 7:10
  Speaker: Now, I know you don't use a lot of healing language, but I think we're kind of saying the same thing that, you know, when you say you cannot move through what you will not feel, I think that expresses why it's so important not to just get through it.
• 7:25
  Speaker: I'm wondering how you came to understand that.
• 7:27
  Speaker: Well, I don't wanna give the perception that when Bruce passed away that I had all of these answers already and I knew, well, I, I need to feel this, I need to do this, I need to do that.
• 7:40
  Speaker: This workbook came out of, you know, a lens of looking back, in retrospect, how did I get through?
• 7:49
  Speaker: It wasn't anything that I necessarily knew at the time.
• 7:54
  Speaker: So I don't wanna give that impression that, oh, I just did everything right.
• 7:58
  Speaker: And I don't, I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to grieve, and the workbook certainly doesn't prescribe how to.
• 8:03
  Speaker: It really gives you permission to do what you need to do.
• 8:06
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 8:06
  Speaker: Um, but and we have a history.
• 8:09
  Speaker: You, you know me pretty well, and you know that, uh, sometimes those hard feelings, I had difficulty facing.
• 8:16
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 8:17
  Speaker: And one of the big things that came out of this grief is learning to feel.
• 8:25
  Speaker: Hmm.
• 8:26
  Speaker: And understanding that you can't just have sunshine and rainbows and unicorns all the time.
• 8:35
  Speaker: That is not what life is.
• 8:37
  Speaker: Part of the human experience is feeling the sadness along with the joy, and the grief along with the love.
• 8:44
  Speaker: and this grief has really taught me how to just be with those difficult feelings, where in the past I did just push things aside and carried on and white-knuckled it, as you said, to survive a lot of really difficult times.
• 9:00
  Speaker: But slowing down and just allowing myself to be sad or mad or scared Was just huge for, for my journey.
• 9:14
  Speaker: And I wonder whether, there's this fear that if you engage with the fear, the sadness, that you're just gonna get engulfed in it and you're never gonna surface again.
• 9:27
  Speaker: So I'm wondering if you could maybe paint a picture of, what that looks like to feel it.
• 9:33
  Speaker: What does it look like on an average, Tuesday morning when you wake up, and you're experiencing sadness?
• 9:40
  Speaker: What does it look like to allow that?
• 9:41
  Speaker: And did you also have that fear that, "Oh my God, I'm gonna, like, fall into this hole and never find my way out"?
• 9:47
  Speaker: Oh, absolutely.
• 9:50
  Speaker: And, I will say in the early stages, and, and I don't believe this workbook is really helpful in the early stages for anyone.
• 9:57
  Speaker: I think you have to get through some of those early stages first to, to even begin to think about, uh, really taking care of yourself and doing what you need to do.
• 10:08
  Speaker: Those early stages, I did wallow.
• 10:10
  Speaker: I did spend, you know, days, sometimes weeks, really deep in the pain.
• 10:16
  Speaker: Mm.
• 10:17
  Speaker: But I did get to a point where I was able to then allow myself that time to feel and know that I was going to get out of it.
• 10:27
  Speaker: But the harder I tried to contain it, the worse it became.
• 10:33
  Speaker: So when I finally realized that if I just let it out when I'm feeling it, it doesn't matter...
• 10:39
  Speaker: i was in a I was in a store one day with some girlfriends.
• 10:43
  Speaker: I was away on vacation with some girlfriends, walked in a store and a song came on.
• 10:47
  Speaker: Now, I was having this great time.
• 10:50
  Speaker: It had been a year and a half since Bruce passed.
• 10:52
  Speaker: I was really enjoying the company with my friends, and this song just hit me and I just started bawling.
• 10:58
  Speaker: And I walked outside of the store and I just sat out in the sun on a bench.
• 11:04
  Speaker: I let myself cry.
• 11:05
  Speaker: My friends came out and just sat with me.
• 11:08
  Speaker: And the more you let yourself just feel when you need to feel it The less heavy it is.
• 11:17
  Speaker: And I feel like it's...
• 11:20
  Speaker: You can move through those feelings more quickly if you give yourself permission to feel it when you need to feel it.
• 11:27
  Speaker: If that makes sense, instead of pushing it back in.
• 11:29
  Speaker: It makes complete sense, right?
• 11:31
  Speaker: And there's that expression about, you know, what you resist persists.
• 11:35
  Speaker: Yes.
• 11:35
  Speaker: And sometimes we push, try to push things down, and like you said, they don't just go away because you try to suppress it or try to ignore it.
• 11:42
  Speaker: In fact, they might come back sort of with a vengeance because they, they wanna be felt, they wanna feel heard.
• 11:49
  Speaker: And I think there's a natural inclination for those of us who are witnessing that to, wanna make the other person feel better, you know?
• 11:56
  Speaker: I know I would be tempted to be like, "Oh, don't cry.
• 11:59
  Speaker: You're gonna get through this," or try to say some well-meaning stuff.
• 12:02
  Speaker: But I'm inadvertently suppressing your need to just experience it and let that just pass through.
• 12:09
  Speaker: So it sounded like your girlfriends were able to hold the space for you.
• 12:12
  Speaker: They were, and I will say that's not...
• 12:15
  Speaker: It's not true for everyone.
• 12:17
  Speaker: Not everyone is going to be your, your best advocate, uh, so to speak, to let you grieve.
• 12:26
  Speaker: I remember a time shortly after Bruce's passing when I went out to dinner, and through the entire meal his name was never mentioned.
• 12:37
  Speaker: No one asked how I was doing.
• 12:40
  Speaker: And I know the intention behind it was we don't wanna upset her.
• 12:45
  Speaker: We don't wanna make her cry.
• 12:46
  Speaker: We don't wanna make her sad.
• 12:48
  Speaker: Well, newsflash, when somebody passes you are always sad.
• 12:52
  Speaker: You are always ready to cry.
• 12:54
  Speaker: You are always grieving.
• 12:55
  Speaker: You're constantly thinking about the person.
• 12:57
  Speaker: Them not bringing him up didn't make me forget that he died.
• 13:01
  Speaker: However, in the past I was guilty of the same type of behavior when a friend was grieving.
• 13:09
  Speaker: I didn't know how to respond either, and I think you sometimes have to go through it to really figure that out.
• 13:15
  Speaker: But I think the biggest thing people can do to support someone who's grieving is meet them where they are and let them tell you what they need, even if they can't voice it.
• 13:29
  Speaker: Uh, you can ask those questions.
• 13:32
  Speaker: "Would you like to talk about him or her?" Mm-hmm.
• 13:36
  Speaker: "Do you wanna tell me about your mom?
• 13:38
  Speaker: Do you wanna tell me about your spouse?
• 13:39
  Speaker: Whoever has passed.
• 13:40
  Speaker: Don't feel like you can't bring that person up.
• 13:45
  Speaker: But then you also need to ask permission at the time to make sure they're, they are comfortable talking about that.
• 13:50
  Speaker: It could be a time where they are trying to just get through the day and, and maybe they're not up for that kind of conversation.
• 13:56
  Speaker: So I think being really open to what that person needs is the most important thing.
• 14:01
  Speaker: And enough with the, "I just wanna try to cheer you up" thing, 'cause that just, you know...
• 14:08
  Speaker: Going out for ice cream, going for a walk, going shopping isn't going to cheer anybody up.
• 14:14
  Speaker: It, it's great to offer your time and your, and your energy, but it's more important to just kind of meet them where they are and find out what they need from you.
• 14:23
  Speaker: I'm glad you brought that up, because it's something I definitely wanted to touch on, the fact that we don't talk a lot about grief and how to support people.
• 14:32
  Speaker: So you've said a few things in there that are helpful and not helpful.
• 14:36
  Speaker: And, the piece about not talking about someone, um, who's passed, that reminds me of something my aunt said.
• 14:45
  Speaker: She lost her husband many, many years ago.
• 14:49
  Speaker: I was quite young, and nobody talked about him, and I think it was the same thing.
• 14:53
  Speaker: They didn't wanna upset her.
• 14:54
  Speaker: But I remember her saying at one point, "It's like he never existed in this family.
• 15:00
  Speaker: Because one day he's there, the next day he's gone, and his name is never mentioned again." And that really stuck with me.
• 15:07
  Speaker: So I love that you're positioning it from the place of it's not right or wrong to bring them up or not bring them up, it's really where the person is at.
• 15:15
  Speaker: And you can simply ask the question, "Would you like to talk about him or her?" Absolutely.
• 15:22
  Speaker: And, you know, find your people.
• 15:24
  Speaker: Find the people who you are comfortable being vulnerable with, comfortable saying, "This is what I need from you right now." Uh, I, I did go to a grief support group, and I'm pretty terrible about crying in front of people.
• 15:43
  Speaker: I do not like to cry in front of people.
• 15:46
  Speaker: And I remember my first time there I couldn't even introduce myself.
• 15:50
  Speaker: The, the waterworks just started.
• 15:52
  Speaker: And when you're surrounded by people who understand what you're going through and welcome your tears, it is a completely different experience.
• 16:03
  Speaker: And again, there's...
• 16:05
  Speaker: As much as I would prefer to have not gone through this, there have been many gifts in this grief, which is why I'm glad it's a part of me.
• 16:15
  Speaker: As I said, I learned to feel my feelings, but I've also learned to be really vulnerable with other people.
• 16:23
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Speaker: And allow myself to cry when I need to, say what I need.
• 16:29
  Speaker: And, you know, hold space for myself and set those boundaries that maybe I need.
• 16:35
  Speaker: I have had people bring Bruce up before where it's not an appropriate time for me.
• 16:39
  Speaker: Hmm.
• 16:39
  Speaker: And I've been able to say, like, "I don't, I don't really wanna talk about that right now." Does this relate to what you said earlier when you said that this has forever changed you?
• 16:50
  Speaker: So as you're talking about increased vulnerability, increased ability to ask for what you need, set boundaries, is that part of that lasting change you were referring to?
• 16:59
  Speaker: 100%.
• 17:00
  Speaker: And as I said, I feel like my DNA has changed.
• 17:03
  Speaker: I am a completely different person than the person I was before.
• 17:08
  Speaker: Again, I'd- I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
• 17:11
  Speaker: I wish this hadn't happened.
• 17:13
  Speaker: I would love for Bruce to still be in this world But I have really found a lot of growth and, and gifts in, in not only the grief, but in the love that we had as well.
• 17:27
  Speaker: Just as love changes you, grief is going to change you.
• 17:30
  Speaker: It's so beautiful, and I don't think, that's something that we talk a lot about either.
• 17:37
  Speaker: When somebody's going through a really hard time, I'm sure the last thing they wanna hear is about the silver lining or that you're going to get something, be stronger as a result of it.
• 17:46
  Speaker: I mean, you're, when you're walking it and you're in the midst of it, I'm sure that that feels almost hurtful.
• 17:52
  Speaker: But what you're describing is not dissimilar to what you hear when people who go through, you know, a cancer journey or some other kind of difficulty or tragedy.
• 18:02
  Speaker: When they're on the other side, they can then see it, but it's clearly not the time to talk about that when somebody's in the midst of despair.
• 18:10
  Speaker: No, absolutely.
• 18:12
  Speaker: I would never say that to anyone.
• 18:13
  Speaker: Just as I did...
• 18:14
  Speaker: i didn't care for when people would say to me that he would want you to be happy.
• 18:18
  Speaker: Mm.
• 18:19
  Speaker: Or he's in a better place.
• 18:20
  Speaker: Those, those things don't help.
• 18:22
  Speaker: Um, and I'm not saying everyone needs to find the gifts.
• 18:27
  Speaker: Again, my entire workbook is about incorporating grief into your life in your own way, in whatever way fits you.
• 18:40
  Speaker: So it's not, there's no right or wrong way, and not everyone will have those gifts.
• 18:44
  Speaker: But, it's just something that, that I have kind of realized after getting through the really, really dark times.
• 18:52
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 18:53
  Speaker: Your workbook's very gentle and not prescriptive, and it seems to be designed to meet people where they're at, and it doesn't have to be done linearly or anything like that, so it's really beautiful.
• 19:02
  Speaker: And for people who are listening and interested, obviously we'll put links in the show notes.
• 19:06
  Speaker: So you've mentioned a few things that weren't helpful, like saying, "Oh, you know, Bruce would want you to be happy," and things like that.
• 19:12
  Speaker: Is there, is there anything, that was particularly helpful that you can remember that people either said or did?
• 19:18
  Speaker: Because I think a lot of times we really want to be supportive, and we're always worried about saying or doing the wrong thing.
• 19:25
  Speaker: Anything that, else that comes to mind?
• 19:27
  Speaker: Two things come to mind immediately.
• 19:30
  Speaker: The first thing is I canceled a lot of plans i- in the beginning.
• 19:36
  Speaker: I would tell people I was gonna do something and then I didn't do it.
• 19:40
  Speaker: I really struggled with socializing, making small talk, sitting there and trying to pretend I was happy.
• 19:49
  Speaker: So I really avoided those situations a lot in the beginning.
• 19:54
  Speaker: And what I appreciated was the understanding.
• 19:58
  Speaker: Mm.
• 19:59
  Speaker: I had some people who maybe didn't quite understand and were upset with me.
• 20:03
  Speaker: Um, but the ones that did understand, I, I truly appreciated that they allowed me the opportunity to say, "No, this is not something that I can do right now." And one of the other things that really meant a lot to me was, uh, a woman I met in my support group.
• 20:24
  Speaker: We exchanged phone numbers, and she asked me about Bruce every time we talked.
• 20:30
  Speaker: And, you know, got excited about learning more about my relationship and what I loved about him and things that we enjoyed doing, and I would cry half the time when I was talking to her, but she just allowed me to do that.
• 20:49
  Speaker: And because she had lost her husband around the same time, she was also very emotional, and her vulnerability is what really helped me be more open to sharing those feelings and being vulnerable with her.
• 21:06
  Speaker: That's beautiful.
• 21:07
  Speaker: Now, my memory is a little wonky these days, but I seem to recall you and I having breakfast one time, and I feel like you ordered pancakes in honor of Bruce.
• 21:19
  Speaker: Is that correct?
• 21:20
  Speaker: Was it because it was something...
• 21:21
  Speaker: Was it pancakes that he loved Yes, it was pancakes.
• 21:25
  Speaker: And I had a note, I still have the note in my phone where whenever...
• 21:30
  Speaker: We went to breakfast a lot on the weekends, and we would try different places, and he would rate the pancakes.
• 21:35
  Speaker: Right.
• 21:36
  Speaker: And every time we went he would say, "Do I like the pancakes here?" And I couldn't remember.
• 21:41
  Speaker: They weren't...
• 21:42
  Speaker: It wasn't my meal.
• 21:43
  Speaker: I'm like, "I don't know if you liked them or not." So I started keeping track, and I kept a note in my phone and he would grade them A, B or C, and I'd keep it in my phone so the next time we went back to that restaurant and he said, "Do I like the pancakes here?" I was able to check my phone and let him know.
• 21:59
  Speaker: Oh, my God.
• 22:00
  Speaker: I'm glad you remember that.
• 22:01
  Speaker: That's hilarious.
• 22:01
  Speaker: Yes, I do.
• 22:02
  Speaker: And I remember learning something at the time, like, just how important it is to keep that person alive, you know, in your heart, in your experience, and to have, I guess, the permission space to be able to, to talk about him and celebrate the things he loved and, and honor him in that way.
• 22:20
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 22:21
  Speaker: I do try to, on the anniversary, um, of his death, I do try to go out to breakfast- Mm and order pancakes.
• 22:30
  Speaker: And, uh, in the afternoon I stop at a place that we used to like to go to, and I sit at the bar, and I have a blue light in his honor.
• 22:38
  Speaker: And, I find different ways to honor him, and everybody's gonna have their own- Ways and things that bring meaning.
• 22:46
  Speaker: But sometimes it's just those little things that really stick with you.
• 22:51
  Speaker: Yeah, and that's part, I guess, honoring him, but also caring for your own heart.
• 22:57
  Speaker: And speaking about caring, one of the things you talk about the distinction between awareness and intention.
• 23:05
  Speaker: And you talk about how awareness helps you understand your grief, but it's intention that helps you care for yourself through it.
• 23:13
  Speaker: And I'm wondering if you can say a little bit more about, any other practices that you would share with folks in terms of what does it look like to care for yourself through grief?
• 23:26
  Speaker: I think the biggest thing is listening to your heart and your body- Mm-hmm first of all.
• 23:36
  Speaker: So the things that I did may or may not work for someone else.
• 23:39
  Speaker: But definitely the yoga, the movement is huge in getting those emotions up and out.
• 23:50
  Speaker: They don't go away, but, but they definitely work through your body.
• 23:54
  Speaker: And one of the things I loved about the yoga, and I still go today, it's been over three years now, and I still do my regular Monday, Wednesday night yoga class.
• 24:05
  Speaker: It gave me the opportunity to be out and quiet and not have to socialize.
• 24:16
  Speaker: While I was in a classroom, in yoga you're not talking to each other.
• 24:19
  Speaker: Yeah, really.
• 24:20
  Speaker: That's perfect.
• 24:20
  Speaker: You can be with people and not have to make that small talk- Yes that you were just not- Yes Yeah I didn't have to pretend I was happy.
• 24:28
  Speaker: I just went and, really just became very, very present in the moment, and I felt a lot of peace.
• 24:34
  Speaker: Again, it may not be for everyone.
• 24:36
  Speaker: I started doing the floats.
• 24:40
  Speaker: I was doing those regularly in the beginning as well, because that also gave me that opportunity to just be still.
• 24:48
  Speaker: I did start therapy, uh, during the grieving process, which I highly recommend for everyone, whether you're grieving or not.
• 24:56
  Speaker: I started, with some grief therapy, which then, you know, at, at one point in time ended up being about a lot of other things besides- Mm the grief.
• 25:07
  Speaker: And I think with becoming more vulnerable and more willing to examine how I was feeling, a lot of things came up that would probably take up a whole other podcast.
• 25:21
  Speaker: But I, I also don't want anyone listening who is maybe going through that grief process to think that, everyone's gonna grieve in the same way and I don't wanna minimize anyone's grief, is what I'm saying.
• 25:36
  Speaker: But it absolutely changed the trajectory of my life and made me examine how I was living my life.
• 25:45
  Speaker: Um, one of the things I wanted to touch on because I did a podcast episode, where I was talking about the fact that often when someone else is struggling, I struggle to feel joy.
• 25:59
  Speaker: So it really stood out to me when in your workbook you have an assessment, and one of the statements that you assess yourself on is, "I allow myself to look forward to the future without feeling like it dishonors the person I lost." And that one really touched my heart.
• 26:17
  Speaker: Mm.
• 26:17
  Speaker: And I wonder, why you put that specifically in the workbook?
• 26:22
  Speaker: Well, talk about banishing the lies, right?
• 26:26
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 26:26
  Speaker: The, there is this myth or lie or belief I think that many of us have that when you're feeling joy- When someone has passed that that means you didn't really love them or you aren't really sad.
• 26:44
  Speaker: Mm.
• 26:45
  Speaker: And I remember feeling the same thing when I first got divorced.
• 26:49
  Speaker: I, I was having a good time doing something, and I'm like, "How could I be having fun?
• 26:54
  Speaker: I'm going through a divorce.
• 26:55
  Speaker: This is terrible." Um, and, and divorce is just another, you know, type of loss and grief, but I think what's important for everyone to remember regardless of what season of life you're in, what, what grief you're going through or e- or any other difficult feelings you're going through is these things can exist at the same time.
• 27:17
  Speaker: It's not an or, it's an and.
• 27:21
  Speaker: I can be sad about his passing, and I can be excited for something that's happening in my future.
• 27:30
  Speaker: I can feel deep love for the relationship that I had, and I can feel grief that I, that I don't have that anymore.
• 27:42
  Speaker: They, they coexist.
• 27:44
  Speaker: These feelings always have coexisted, and I think we, we tend to forget that and minimize our ability to just appreciate and be grateful for the beauty and the joy and the wonder that still exists while we're on this planet.
• 28:05
  Speaker: That's so beautifully said 'cause, yeah, I think we get it really wrong.
• 28:09
  Speaker: I know in that episode I talked about somehow, by me experiencing joy almost feels like a betrayal of the other person as if, somehow my suffering is going to be of service to them when it's absolutely the opposite that's true.
• 28:24
  Speaker: But I love how you bring us back to how it's a bit of a paradox, but both things can be held together simultaneously, and one doesn't make the other wrong.
• 28:34
  Speaker: Absolutely.
• 28:35
  Speaker: As long as you have the capacity to love, you will feel grief at some point.
• 28:45
  Speaker: There's...
• 28:46
  Speaker: Like, we're all going to feel it at some point, and that doesn't have to be the end of joy.
• 28:54
  Speaker: Mm.
• 28:55
  Speaker: The joy is in, is in the ability to have that love to begin with.
• 29:01
  Speaker: Yeah, I love that.
• 29:03
  Speaker: Um, you talk about, you use the words myth, you use the word lies.
• 29:07
  Speaker: Are there any other myths or lies do you think that we hold around grief?
• 29:13
  Speaker: The biggest thing I think that I found when I first started going through this grieving process, and I, I was trying to read a lot about it, um, and intellectualize it, I think as we often try to do, is the stages of grief that's out there.
• 29:32
  Speaker: Is it Kubler-Ross?
• 29:33
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 29:34
  Speaker: And I believe those authors have even come back and said this, this was written for people who were personally given a death sentence.
• 29:41
  Speaker: They, they were.
• 29:42
  Speaker: Oh, I see.
• 29:44
  Speaker: And it really had nothing to do with people grieving over the loss of someone, and it's been misconstrued and used everywhere, uh, since its publication.
• 29:56
  Speaker: And while, while you may feel some of those things, you know, I would have people ask me, "What stage do you think you're in?" Oh my God.
• 30:05
  Speaker: It's almost like an evaluation.
• 30:06
  Speaker: Well, you're on stage- Yeah four.
• 30:08
  Speaker: You're getting close to the end.
• 30:09
  Speaker: Right.
• 30:10
  Speaker: And again, it felt like I, that I was trying to get somewhere.
• 30:14
  Speaker: Mm.
• 30:14
  Speaker: And there's nowhere, there's nowhere to go.
• 30:17
  Speaker: You don't have to get anywhere.
• 30:19
  Speaker: You don't have to go through anything.
• 30:21
  Speaker: You just incorporate it into your life intentionally in as many ways as you possibly can, in as many ways as you need to.
• 30:29
  Speaker: So I think that the stages of grief have really been used in a way that, that is not necessarily helpful.
• 30:39
  Speaker: And the authors will tell you that as well.
• 30:41
  Speaker: So i'm not, I'm not dishing their work, but it just doesn't really apply.
• 30:47
  Speaker: It sounds like it was used to apply, to everything and anyone experiencing any kind of loss, and it doesn't sound- Yeah like that was ever the intention.
• 30:54
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Speaker: Thank you for clarifying that.
• 30:56
  Speaker: So, because we don't talk a lot about grief, if there is anything anyone could have told you prior to Bruce's passing that you wish you had known, to, better prepare you to face the grief.
• 31:11
  Speaker: I honestly don't believe there is anything anyone could have said to prepare me I guess in retrospect, I wish I had already been more intentional with my feelings and my life But I don't believe there's anything anyone could do or say really to prepare you.
• 31:30
  Speaker: I think the only thing is That you need to just feel how you feel.
• 31:35
  Speaker: You need to give yourself grace and allow yourself to be sad, be mad And, and just feel yeah.
• 31:45
  Speaker: And it's funny because, you know, listening to that it might sound overly simplistic, and yet from experience I can say that can be also incredibly hard.
• 31:54
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 31:55
  Speaker: Oh, yeah It takes a radical level of honesty and being- Yeah connected to yourself.
• 32:00
  Speaker: Well, I think there's this idea that we're supposed to always be happy.
• 32:05
  Speaker: Yeah, there's another myth.
• 32:07
  Speaker: And And what that looks like, right?
• 32:09
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 32:10
  Speaker: And, a- and that just isn't possible.
• 32:13
  Speaker: And, and how would you even know what happiness is if you didn't ever have anything horrible happen or any sadness or any frustrations?
• 32:21
  Speaker: How would you even know you were happy?
• 32:23
  Speaker: So the idea that you're always supposed to be happy makes grieving tough.
• 32:31
  Speaker: Yeah, because I wonder inside of that it becomes too easy to make yourself wrong.
• 32:36
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 32:37
  Speaker: Like, "What's wrong with me- Oh, 100% that I'm still feeling this way?" Why am I still sad?
• 32:40
  Speaker: Why am I still crying?
• 32:41
  Speaker: Why are these songs triggering me in the middle of a vacation?
• 32:44
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 32:46
  Speaker: I- You know?
• 32:46
  Speaker: There'd be a lot of shoulds.
• 32:47
  Speaker: Why can't I move on?
• 32:48
  Speaker: Why...
• 32:48
  Speaker: Yeah, all of that.
• 32:50
  Speaker: And it's okay to not be happy.
• 32:53
  Speaker: I'm just gonna let that statement land, right?
• 32:56
  Speaker: How often do people say that?
• 32:58
  Speaker: It's okay to not be happy.
• 33:00
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 33:00
  Speaker: It's okay to be exactly where you're at.
• 33:02
  Speaker: And if you're the friend or a loved one or a family member of someone who's grieving, I think you also need to remember that.
• 33:09
  Speaker: It's okay that they're sad.
• 33:11
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 33:12
  Speaker: It's okay.
• 33:13
  Speaker: It's all part of the human experience, and we're all going to go through it.
• 33:17
  Speaker: Again, as long as you have the capacity to love, you will grieve at some point over a marriage, a friendship, a pet, a spouse, a parent Yeah.
• 33:29
  Speaker: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 33:31
  Speaker: And sometimes we're even, grieving the person we used to be.
• 33:34
  Speaker: You know, when things in life change us, they don't have to be loss in the sense that we, typically think of it.
• 33:39
  Speaker: And that's why I thought so much of what's in your workbook is so applicable to so many types of loss.
• 33:44
  Speaker: When you sat down to create this, what was your, greatest intention for anybody who picks up this workbook?
• 33:52
  Speaker: I would like anyone who sees this workbook or goes through this workbook to feel seen- Mm and understood in their grief, and to feel that they have everything they need inside of them.
• 34:11
  Speaker: They don't have to listen to anyone else.
• 34:13
  Speaker: They don't have to do it a certain way.
• 34:15
  Speaker: They just need to listen to their hearts.
• 34:18
  Speaker: And they will eventually incorporate grief into their lives.
• 34:23
  Speaker: It's not gonna go away.
• 34:24
  Speaker: It's, again, it's not a wound that needs to heal.
• 34:28
  Speaker: That's such an incredible gift.
• 34:31
  Speaker: And, maybe this is where we can, start to wrap up, is, you know, the, the book isn't, like you said, about getting to a destination or moving on or moving past it.
• 34:41
  Speaker: It's learning to live with the love and the loss at the same time.
• 34:46
  Speaker: So I'm curious, today, what does creating the life you wanna lead look like as you're holding those?
• 34:54
  Speaker: Like, how does it, shape how you show up and how you set your intentions today?
• 34:59
  Speaker: I definitely have a greater appreciation for Just the day to day, the little things in my life, the gratitude that I feel And obviously, with this loss came this opportunity, you know, to, to create this workbook to try to help other people.
• 35:20
  Speaker: And that brings me so much joy and it makes the relationship and the loss just that much bittersweet- Mm-hmm because of what has come out of that.
• 35:33
  Speaker: But I definitely, I think the biggest lesson I've learned is just to honor myself and to care for myself And I think that is really what, why we're, why we're all here.
• 35:46
  Speaker: If that makes sense.
• 35:48
  Speaker: It totally makes sense.
• 35:50
  Speaker: And this is one of the reasons why I knew I'd love this conversation because, on this podcast we talk about, um, that there's nothing to fix.
• 36:00
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 36:00
  Speaker: We talk about meeting yourself where you are, feeling what there is to feel, seeing what there is to see, and not judging yourself in the process.
• 36:07
  Speaker: And you just hold so much light and compassion, in what you're expressing, and I saw that come through the workbook.
• 36:15
  Speaker: So it's truly my hope that anyone who is, walking in a season of grief, that they feel supported.
• 36:23
  Speaker: So thank you for shining your light.
• 36:26
  Speaker: Thank you for turning your loss into such a huge gift, and thank you so much for joining me for this conversation, Karen.
• 36:34
  Speaker: Thank you, Tania.
• 36:39
  Tania: Thanks for listening to Banish The Lies.
• 36:41
  Tania: If today's episode resonated with you, take a moment to let it settle in.
• 36:45
  Tania: And maybe share it with a friend who could use it too.
• 36:48
  Tania: Lies, lose their power when we're brave enough to challenge them.
• 36:52
  Tania: I'm Tania Cervoni, and until next time, be kind to yourself.
• 36:57
  Tania: And remember, you're not broken, you're not alone, and you don't have to stay stuck.