Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / Episode 317: Inside Career Services at Indiana Kelley

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Episode 317: Inside Career Services at Indiana Kelley · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:15
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Clearadmit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and in this special episode of the podcast, we're going to take a peek inside the career services function at Eating Business School, and we'll do so by hearing from two special guests, both the head of career services and a current student. The business school in question is the Kelly School of Business at Indiana University. And the reason why we're connecting with them is because of a special program they have in place called Me Inc. We'll hear exactly how the job search unfolds for students at Kelly and gain an in depth understanding of the career services function in general. Plus, we'll hear both the student side and the career services side. This episode should be pretty eye opening and in terms of optimizing your own career outcomes. If you're tuning in today and thinking about that path to business school and the job you want to have, I know that a lot of our listeners, you're probably knee deep in MBA applications or interview prep and all that goes into getting into business school. But I can assure you that listening to this episode will pay big dividends as you chart your path beyond business school. So let's start by introducing our guests today. First up, we have Rebecca Cook. Rebecca is the head of career services at Kelly. She joined Kelly back in November of 2009, initially as a career coach within Graduate career Services, then moved up to the role of Director of Coaching and Development in 2012, before joining the MBA program office in 2016 as Executive director of the full time MBA program. In 2019, Rebecca was asked to become the Executive Director of Kelly Undergraduate Career Services and in 2022 became the Executive Director of Kelly Career Services, encompassing both graduate and undergraduate career services. Rebecca also has a kind of corporate background. She was most recently a portfolio manager and senior equity analyst with Voyager Asset Management. She has over 14 years of investment management experience. Her undergrad was completed at University of Wisconsin Madison, and she has an MBA in finance at Indiana University at Kelly. So welcome, Rebecca.
• 2:21
  Speaker B: Thank you so much, Graham. I'm excited to be here today.
• 2:23
  Speaker A: It's great to have you. Our other guest who's going to join us today is Andrew Lash, and Andrew is a current second year MBA student at Indiana Kelly. He's originally from Salt Lake City, attended Brigham Young for undergrad, and he had five years of experience in the digital marketing and advertising world with SmartClick, an advertising agency prior to business school. Now that he's a second year, I can share that. He did an internship as a senior brand manager intern at Procter and Gamble. He is the co president of the Kelly Marketing Club. He's vice president of the soccer club. He works as an admissions counselor as a second year student. Some students do that at Kelly. He's also a member of the Consumer Marketing academy and the Leadership Academy. So welcome, Andrew.
• 3:08
  Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me excited to be here today.
• 3:10
  Speaker A: No, it's really a pleasure. And I'm personally just super excited because it's great to have Andrew, your perspective as a student and Rebecca, yours as someone who's sitting in the career office running the show there. So I just cannot wait to hear kind of how these two perspectives just can sort of shed light on everything for our listeners. So, Rebecca, let's start with you. I wondered if you could just tell me a little bit about yourself, like, beyond the bio that I gave. I mean, how did you end up coming to Kelly, and what do you love about this work that you do now?
• 3:38
  Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So it wasn't actually in the life plan. You think of an MBA and you get your MBA and then you have your path all laid out and did that for a long time. And then the financial world blew up in eight and nine, and the firm I was working at was shut down. I was trying to figure out what to do next. And my husband's a Kelly MBA as well, and we decided to flip our lives and move back to Bloomington. Neither of us are from the state of Indiana, nor really other than going to school here, but we decided, let's try. So I moved into an interesting role in graduate career services. Originally, that tied my investment background to the career side. So I was coaching students going into the investment space, both investment banking and investment management, actually, and private wealth, and worked my way throughout the different areas of the school. But really, really love working with the students. It's so much fun to get to know them on an individual basis, but then also see them succeed and then see them come back. For example, we just had this past weekend, the class of 2013 came back for their reunion, and there are about 50 or so of them. And it was so much fun to reconnect with everybody.
• 4:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I hear that time and time again from folks in your role and in admissions about how it's really about those touch points with students and graduates are just so rewarding. Andrew, I want to turn to you. Tell me a little bit more about yourself, too. Like, what led you to Kelly. What were you hoping to do post MBA when you first began your application process? Are you on track with that? Just give us a little bit more about your background.
• 5:10
  Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So as you called out the beginning, my background's been in marketing and advertising. I left my undergrad really loving the world of marketing. Specifically the kind of blend, at least in my head, the blend of the analytical, business, data driven, decision making side and then the creativity side. So I went into advertising thinking I was pretty creative. Then I met real creative people and realized, okay, maybe not. Maybe I'm not as creative as I thought, but really found a niche kind of more on the data, analytical, business side of things and the strategy. I loved what I was doing with Smart Click, but after about five years, I ultimately felt like it was time for me to make a change and to really saw myself kind of on the other side of the table. So going from the agency side to the brand side, being a little bit more involved in the full business strategy process, more of the full marketing funnel and not just the promotion side. And so for me, I started really looking into brand management as a career path, which allowed me to stay kind of within the scope of marketing, but to look at the business as a whole and to be really cross functional in terms of looking at the business again through marketing, but touching a lot of different areas. And so that really appealed to me. And in that process, I started looking at different business programs. I had some previous connections from my undergrad that kind of pointed me towards Kelly. I knew Kelly having the program, having a really strong track record for turning out great marketing students and alumni and just having connections with phenomenal companies. And so I really started doing some digging there and just the more that I learned about Kelly, the more excited I became about the prospect of being a student here and going upwards and onwards. And so I came in with the focus of kind of making a pivot, but staying within marketing, going from advertising more into brand management in the consumer packaged goods space. That was kind of the plan from the beginning. And again, the more I learned about it, the more it felt like a good fit. So that's kind of the road that I've taken up to this point.
• 7:16
  Speaker A: Okay, yeah, it sounds like you're very much on track and we hear that all the time about Kelly having this real strength in brand management and marketing. And so sounds like you're in the right place. Rebecca, tell me a little bit about what a typical day looks like in career services. And I know you're probably going to say there's no such thing as a typical day, but what kinds of things are you doing on any given day?
• 7:39
  Speaker B: Sure, you're right, there isn't a typical day, but most of my days are honestly filled with meetings. But it's meetings with students, it's meetings with program offices because as you mentioned earlier, I cover graduate and undergraduate, so we have seven graduate programs and then a very large undergraduate program here at Kelly. So I'm working with people across all those different programs as well as student leaders coming in Kelly student government on the undergrad side, but really just trying to be involved with all the different areas and then really taking the overarching synergies and looking and say, okay, this is working really well on one side. How can we help that leverage or how can we leverage that to the grad side or vice versa? Also, company relationships. So a lot of times I'm dealing with companies reaching out to us, whether they're looking for Kelly talent or we're building new relationships or expanding relationships. So it's a lot of different things, which is why I love the job because I get bored really easily.
• 8:36
  Speaker A: Excellent. All right, so Andrew, I know, you know, a lot of the people that listen to the Cleared Met podcast are people who are kind know they're in the throes of applying to business school or thinking about applying to business school and so on. Some not. They don't know a lot about what the experience is like of being an MBA student. And one of the things in particular that I'm curious about is how much time does like a first year MBA spend on the careers piece, especially in that first semester? Because we hear a lot about how academically, there's quite a lot on your plate when you get to business school. So I'm kind of wondering if you can do I know you're going to have to go into the time machine a little and think back to what it was like a year ago for you, but just give us a ballpark sense of how is your time split between academics and job hunting? Or even it sounds like you're pretty active socially and in clubs and things on campus too.
• 9:23
  Speaker C: It's a tough question. You ask five different people, you'd probably get five slightly different answers in terms of how to manage your time. My sense is that pretty much any top MBA program or probably really any MBA program is going to intentionally try to gear you up for the real world in the sense of giving you more to do than you could possibly do and teaching you to learn how to prioritize and make decisions. And so in that sense, there's always going to be so much to do, and it's hard to find the right balance, and so everyone's going to find a little bit of a different balance depending on their priorities. That said, in all the conversations that I've had with my peers, my second year students and even alumni and so forth, I've never heard anyone say, I wish I had spent more time focusing on academics and less on the career search. And so I think pretty much everyone would agree, like, as much time as you can dedicate to your career and really discovering what do you want to do next by having lots of networking conversations and calling people and getting to know, what is this career like, what does your job look like? And then understanding obviously, the whole recruiting process in terms of interview prep and resume prep and applications and all of that. And so I think everyone wants, in hindsight, looks back and said, I could have spent more time there. And so the people that I saw that were really successful were very well organized when it came to the career piece that boiled down to having very specific goals for each week of this is the specific number of people I'm going to talk to. This is how many hours I'm going to spend on it that block off time on their calendars and say, yes, I have time for academics and homework and group projects, but also I'm going to make sure I have this many hours dedicated each day to talking to companies and reaching out and continuing that career search. And so those people that were really well organized and made sure that it didn't slip through the cracks were the ones that were really successful.
• 11:20
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And one thing that we talk a lot about on this show, which we often talk about sort of admissions advice, we talk a lot about career planning and career goals in terms of through the lens of the application process, because most schools, including Indiana Kelly, are asking people to write about this in the application process. And I think, like you say, those who have a good idea of what they're thinking about doing can really hit the ground running. But I guess along those lines, I wanted Rebecca to walk us through what I mentioned at the top of the show, which is this kind of I guess I could call it like a program or a philosophy that you have called me inc. What is this, and how does this approach in career services at Kelly impact students?
• 12:01
  Speaker B: Sure. So I'll give you a little background on this. And we started Me, Inc. And we launched it in 2010, the summer of 2010. And it was brought forth, because what we saw is our students were meeting with companies, and the companies were always saying, well, they could be a little bit more polished, and this is early, but really need to be able to tell their story, really be able to connect whatever they've done in the past to what they want to do going forward. And so we created this program, had through interesting discussions with faculty and everything to allow us to basically take the first year. We took a week of a two week orientation, and we said, we're going to run this. We're going to take the entire week, divide the entire class into small groups of call it roughly 15 and with a facilitator who's either mostly in most cases it was career services person running it and occasionally with somebody from the program office and really delve into and get to know these students. Help them tell that story. Help them learn everything about kind of how they can begin to present themselves. So that's how it started. And that first year was honestly a resounding success. Basically call it the third week of our program, we have something called Roundtables, where we bring in 30, 40 companies. And that first year, the company is like, we don't know what you just did, but it worked really well and your students can actually tell their stories better. So we built on that. And this year we just had our 14th iteration of it. We change it every year and we always get feedback from the students and change it a little bit, depending on what people are looking for. But it really is now it's actually two weeks, not the entire two weeks, but a significant portion of two weeks where we still take the students into small groups of, again, about 15 and really start getting them to talk about themselves. So, first day, they're going to be telling their story to these other 14 people in the room that they just met, and they're drawing it out and really kind of beginning to talk about things that have changed them, things that have shaped them and how they've gotten to where they are today and what they think they want to do going forward. So we start with that and really then delve into how do you do this? How do you start building that brand? What does that brand look like? Building out your LinkedIn, building out your resume, really starting to talk about it, begin to talk a little bit about informational, interviews and then interviewing. But it's really focused mostly on networking and then that personal branding aspect. But it's interesting. But the first day of the Monday to the final day of a Thursday or Friday, depending how the calendar works, the change is awesome. And it just how listening to what somebody said that first day to how we end it. And that's just the beginning. So Miyank is again, it's the two weeks of orientation, but then we build on that throughout the entire well, really the entire two years they're there. But mostly in that first semester of programming within their academies, andrew's or was in the Consumer Marketing Academy. So within that group they do specialized training building on the Me Inc program.
• 15:03
  Speaker A: Okay, so now I'm dying to ask Andrew and we'll get to it in a second. Andrew, I'm dying to ask whether you remember what it was like when everyone gave their pitch on kind of their goals or their background, what they're trying to do on day one versus the end of that process. So we'll get to that in a second. But Rebecca, I did want you to tell me a little bit about the job hunting mean, you mentioned these know, once you start an MBA and obviously I know a lot of people tuning in want to work in consulting or tech or other kind of very popular target fields, consumer products, et cetera. Right? So what does it look like in terms of once you've started the program? And it sounds like the first thing is this nearly two weeks of kind of orientation around careers. But what else?
• 15:49
  Speaker B: Our so our students go through me inc and in that process so we have six academies and these are think of them as like focus areas where you have an idea of what you want to go do. And then these academies will be working with you throughout your time at Kelly to help get you the skill sets that you need for those areas. So we have consumer marketing, we have business marketing consulting, strategic finance which is like corporate finance, capital markets and then supply chain and digital enterprise which is supply chain operations. And so the students select into one of these six academies and again think of them as what like Andrew went into the one because he knew he wanted to go into a CPG type marketing role. So the consumer marketing brand makes or the Consumer Marketing Academy made sense. So within these academies, again, they're learning a lot of the specialized skill sets and the training that they need to be successful in the job. So that first semester is building off of Me. Inc. But also then a lot of the basics of what you need to understand. So a lot of it like in consulting, a lot will be spent on Casing. How do I do case interviews, how do I train for that, how do I begin to tell my story and become good at that? In a Casing or consulting action within capital markets we're learning about investment banking, investment management, private wealth, all the different areas that are tied to that space. So they're a little different depending on focus area. But a lot of this is designed because recruiting has moved earlier and earlier, right? So a lot of our students go to pre MBA type programming in the summer before they get here, which is again why Me. Inc is important. And one thing actually I didn't mention with Me Inc. Is there's a lot of pre work that's tied to it as well. So there's about call it 30 hours of prework that we introduce the students to in April before they actually start before they start anything. And this is again thinking about why am I coming to school, why am I thinking that I want to do whatever this is. And beginning to put that resume together just again a lot of the basics but that can then help them get ready for some of the summer events that happen. And then once they start school, like I mentioned, the roundtables event that happens again like 2nd, 3rd week of the program. So it's really quick before you're put in front of companies, right, and you need to be ready. And again after COVID a lot of the recruiting timelines just moved forward and moved earlier. So our students are doing interviews for internships now which didn't happen ten years ago.
• 18:23
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, there's so many things that have changed. I mean, I'm now recalling my own experience in business school and thinking about how when I was accepted, what you did in the spring and summer before business school was figure out where you wanted to go travel and backpack. And now we hear a lot of the folks in the Clear Admit community are talking to us about pre MBA internships. So it's great that you're kind of getting them some of the Me ink materials. It sounds like 30 hours worth of it prior to their kind of showing up on campus to start. Andrew, you've been patient. I would love to hear about your specific experience with some of the programming that Rebecca is referring to. And also, I know we mentioned you have this internship at Procter Gamble. Maybe you can kind of unveil if you know what you're going to be doing after business school since you're now a second year and maybe have an offer in.
• 19:14
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So me inc was an awesome experience for me. As I mentioned, I came into the MBA pretty know, I felt like I knew what I wanted to do that said I wanted to keep the door open. I wanted to make sure I really knew what I was getting into. And so for me, Me Ink was super valuable. I think anyone that comes into the program, it's really valuable. And a big part of that is just we're all taking two years out of our lives. We're making a pivot of some kind, whether it's like a major career shift or a smaller one. We're accelerating our career in a similar field, but all of us are kind of at this inflection point where we're going through a big change and it's so helpful to take some time out before classes just ramp up and recruiting ramps up, and you don't really have time to kind of gather your thoughts and think through things clearly so valuable. To have this time, to slow down and think, what have I done up to this point that has led me here? Why did I ultimately make this decision to come get my MBA and where do I want to go? And so just taking that time to kind of be really introspective and to do that in a safe environment with your classmates and to build those relationships early because your MBA is so collaborative. Again, any program you're going to go to is going to be a very collaborative experience where you're working in teams constantly and you want to get to know these people on a personal level early on. And to your question earlier as well, it was night and day to see kind of people talk about themselves at the beginning versus at the end after you've kind of had this time to really think through it and to kind of hear, okay, what are other people saying? Can I help kind of pull and learn from that. And then obviously, these group discussions being led by coaches, by mentors, that help kind of build those relationships and just gives you a really safe environment to feel like you're stepping into your MBA when the fall starts, when classes, recruiting, all that begins, that you're ready to go. So it was an awesome experience for me. I felt like I developed some really good relationships. I felt like I understood myself a lot better. I felt like I was entering these conversations with employers with a much clearer direction and more confidence in my story and my brand, and that I could kind of speak to what I wanted to do and why I wanted to do it and why I was qualified. It certainly helps with any type of impostor syndrome that some of us may or may not be feeling, to just really feel like, okay, I've done a lot in my career that's led me here, and I'm qualified to be here, and let's hit the ground running. So it was an awesome experience. Ultimately, I attribute a lot of my success in recruiting back to that experience with Me, Inc. And everything that the career center does. They certainly give you all the tools to enable you to go out and to get a great internship, a great full time offer. So, as you mentioned, I interned with Procter Gamble this summer. For me, that was a dream come true, in a sense. I wanted to get into brand management. P. G was always on my list. When you think about brand management, consumer Packaged, Know, P G has to be on the list of one of those great companies that does a good job at building big brands and just does marketing the right way, in my opinion. And so it was one that was always kind of on my radar. I had a chance to meet a lot of Kelly alumni at Know through the recruiting process, and a lot of Know coming down to these events and academies and different things that the graduate career services enables us to have access to. And so had a great experience this summer with my internship. I did get a full time offer to return, and I am going to go back next summer, which is great. So my wife and I are just starting to look at housing options in Cincinnati, which is a whole new level of stress and excitement. So, yeah, we're excited to be going back. And again, I attribute a lot of that to a lot of the tools that Rebecca was talking about.
• 22:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, congratulations on landing that full time offer with PNG, as you say, kind of one of the big names when you think know, consumer packaged goods and mean just to unpack these steps within Me, inc. I guess there's this process of I guess Rebecca was talking about this developing an in depth understanding of yourself, and then you were referring to building mentorship relations. It sounds like working one on one with career coaches. And then there's this other thing that I read about on the website, which is this learning the four phase process which you guys call Dnip. What does that stand for again? Can somebody andrew, do you remember? Are we going to put you on the spot? I know Rebecca must know.
• 23:47
  Speaker C: Yeah. Let me take a stab at it.
• 23:49
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 23:49
  Speaker C: Rebecca, correct me, please believe it's. Discover really learning and understanding kind of what it is that you want to be doing and understanding what is out there. So discover network, obviously getting to know people and the company and understanding the process. And then interview, obviously the interview is a big process in getting that opportunity. And then perform, obviously going and out and executing and so getting all these tools throughout the process to help you in each of those steps in terms of your discovery and your learning phase to the actual networking and interview and then obviously performing in the interview and in the internship and so forth.
• 24:26
  Speaker A: Got it. Rebecca, did he get that right?
• 24:28
  Speaker B: He did, yes.
• 24:29
  Speaker C: Okay, thank goodness.
• 24:31
  Speaker B: Now, one thing to add on that too is I don't have a visual, but it's picture like an ancient Greek building, for example, where you have some steps going up to it and the tall columns and then the triangle of the roof. And we really spend most of that time on that discovery and that networking phase. And what happens is most people just like, okay, I need to find a job. I'm going to go in and jump into interviewing. And they never actually take the time to step back and look and discover. It's like, what am I really looking for? Is it types of companies, industries, geographies? What am I doing? Why am I doing this? So really spending that time on that discovery phase and then using the networking phase to build off that, because we want you to go out and have conversations with alumni with other connections and learn if you're really heading in the right path. So we want to make sure that as you have conversations actually, Andrew, I'll use you as an example. You thought you wanted to do CPG, so you probably went out and networked and then confirmed that was the right area you wanted to go to. But it could have been the case where you went out there and you're like, you know, actually this doesn't sound right, so maybe I want to do more of a business marketing role or maybe I even want to move completely different and go into like a supply chain or operations role. And that's where, again, that discovery and network plays a huge, huge portion to it because also if you do the homework there, it makes the interviewing process so much easier.
• 25:57
  Speaker A: That makes a lot of mean. One of the things I've been thinking about. As both of you have been speaking today is know it feels like this type of program works really well in a close knit, smaller kind of like it just feels know Andrew, you get a lot of attention and a lot of kind of personalized attention at a place like Kelly, which is fantastic. I wondered though, can you tell me something, Andrew, that you found really kind of surprising about the Kelly MBA experience? And I know you're not done yet, you're going to graduate in the spring, but you've been there more than a year now, you have your job lined up et, but is there something that you just hadn't expected?
• 26:35
  Speaker C: Yeah, it goes right in line with what you were saying in terms of that tight knit community and tight knit culture. I think I was just blown away at how many people remembered my name. And it sounds silly, but how many people knew who I was and people that I had met in the interview process to come to Kelly a year before getting here. And then I come to campus and they were just so excited to meet me in person remembered who you know, I didn't expect that at all. And then throughout meet inc throughout my classes. Like having a much more personal relationship with faculty, with professors and then onto the alumni network feels so tight knit. And the fact that everyone just feels like they have a real shared interest in your success and wanting to help you be successful, helping to want to get you where you want to go. And then obviously the classmates like my fellow first years looking back at last year and then our second year. So the class ahead of me in particular, just how much they were willing to mentor and help all of those that had gone through brand management, consumer packaged goods recruiting, were so willing to help me with the interview process and just getting me ready to go. And so just this tight knit community where everyone seems to know your name and to want you to be successful. I think I hoped for that coming into my MBA program, but I think I was just blown away at the level and the degree to which people really seemed to care, which was awesome.
• 27:59
  Speaker A: That's great. Yeah. So I want to shift gears a little bit, Rebecca, and ask you a question. I feel like I have to tap into your knowledge in kind of career development. And so given that people who are tuning in are kind of just embarking on this journey to business school, I know that they would love to hear from you any advice you have about what could they be doing now? I mean, I'm sure they're writing essays or thinking about the application process, but imagine they have some free time to work on their kind of career development. What would you suggest someone do before they even arrive in business school to ensure a kind of great post MBA career outcome.
• 28:38
  Speaker B: Sure. Honestly, I'd say going to the discovery phase. And again, some people know, or they think they know exactly what they want to do going into an MBA program and some don't. And that's totally okay. So I would probably spend time actually networking with my current connections, whoever, colleagues or other friends, family, whatever, undergrad Alums, and really, again, start exploring and what does that look like, and doing some of those call them informational interviews to learn. Do I think I'm heading in the path I think I am or not? Because if you come in and you've done a lot of that homework, that's going to actually make your first year a lot easier. So I'd say focusing on that and then just beginning to think about, okay, how do I want to tell some of the stories on my resume? How do I want to make sure my LinkedIn profile looks up to speed, but really, again, thinking about things I've done in the past and then how I can connect them to what I want to do going forward. So how do I make those connections between skill sets, between interest, between things you've developed on whatever your prior job was that may have absolutely nothing to do with what you want to do next? That's totally okay, because you can, again, take some of those transferable skills. But again, you have to be able to connect the dots from, again, that past to what you want to do next. And usually you actually can do this in pretty much anything.
• 29:57
  Speaker A: Yeah. And what's interesting is that that's actually good admissions advice, I think, in the sense that when candidates are writing essays about their career plan or why they want an MBA or what they plan to do, the ability to kind of demonstrate to the admissions team what it is in their background that's going to help them to be successful post MBA as well. Even though they're trying to make a career. Pivot or change is really I mean, that can be tremendously valuable in the application process too.
• 30:23
  Speaker B: Definitely.
• 30:24
  Speaker A: So, great advice. Yeah. I feel like I have to put you on the spot a little bit, Rebecca. The job market has been kind of wacky of late. It's been really hard for people to predict where the economy is going. There are these sort of weird ups and downs. And I've seen this over the years in graduate management education. You mentioned the financial crisis in 2008. There was the.com bubble bursting back in 2001. And so these things sort of come and go, but I wondered what you would say to a current applicant who's sort of wondering, is now the right time to go and get an MBA? And how does your office sort of navigate when some industries aren't hiring as much as they were and these sort of ups and downs?
• 31:09
  Speaker B: Sure. Yes. And it does go in cycles. So I'd say right now, yes, within consulting, within the tech space, even a bit in investment banking, the numbers are down in terms of hiring, and particularly, I'd say consulting. But that's a situation where honestly, people just aren't leaving consulting. It's not that they don't have business, it's more of just they're not traveling as much, so they're being paid really well and they don't have to travel, so why would they leave? That's really what it is. So it's just they have to work through the cycle and people will eventually move on to different things or business will continue to pick up, but all of these things go in cycles, so they will come back. So if you're looking at applying for, let's say, fall of 24, by the time you graduate in 26, it's probably going to be completely different. Right. I'd say for students now, though, we're really trying to help them look at, okay, what are some other ancillary areas that can still get you a lot of the same skill sets that eventually then you can move into your area of focus. So if you want to do consulting, and consulting is hiring, like I mentioned, a lot less than they historically have. Okay, what about internal consulting? What about strategy within different companies? What are some of those other areas? You can go into that then a couple of years down the road you can switch into consulting when that opens up a little bit. So, again, I made a comment way at the beginning, but your career path is not linear. You can have a ten year plan and that's lovely, but it usually doesn't work. So it's sideways, it's circles, it's whatever. But whatever job you go into straight out of your program, you're not going to stay there. Most likely you'll probably move within, call it two, three years, and that could be moving up within the same company. But in a lot of cases, it's changing companies. And so again, looking at what are the skill sets that I want to gain right out of an MBA, and then finding opportunities to do that, that can then help, again, get you to maybe that second step going forward. So right now it's just kind of helping students recognize there's other ways to get places than maybe necessarily the direct path given the current hiring market.
• 33:18
  Speaker A: Got it. Yeah, that's great advice too, about consulting, in the sense that my suspicion would be that if you go and do internal consulting or internal strategy for a Fortune 500 company or something, you would be super desirable when it comes to consulting, companies then looking to hire because they love to get people from industry with that kind of expertise. So great advice there. Andrew, I want to turn to you. We have really time for just one more question here. But Andrew, if you're willing, can you give our listeners some advice about the application process to top MBA programs? Any words of wisdom or things that you wish that you'd known in hindsight?
• 33:54
  Speaker C: Yeah, great question. My wife reminds me that I love to give advice. I'll try to keep it at a minimum. One of the things that I found most helpful as I was looking at MBA programs and working through the application process and something that I could have done more of was really just talk to as many people as possible. You can call it networking. If that is intimidating, don't call it networking, but really, that's where you get to know so much about the program, the opportunities, the alumni network, just really understanding what it is you're getting into. You're going to be taking two years out from your career. This is going to be such a big commitment. The opportunity, cost of not working, the cost of tuition, whatever it might be. There's just so much going into this that you want to make sure you find the right fit and you're with the right community that's a good fit for you and that ultimately this is what you want to get out of it. And I just felt like for me, talking to as many people as possible was so helpful and so talking to the admissions team, talking to current students, talking to alumni where possible, and just making sure you're finding the right fit for you. Obviously, it also helps in the application and interview process. The more that you know about the program, the more you can speak to that and really give a tailored response for every program that you're applying to and really showing why this specific program is right for me, because you've done your research and then obviously this same skill set will apply. Once you're in your MBA program and you're working with trying to get an internship or a full time offer, as you're going to go through that same process of just doing a lot of informational, interview research, talking to people, and so just yeah, that would be my advice, is talking to a lot of people, doing that research. And I found it really enjoyable too. It was intimidating at first, but just the more you get to meet people and hear people talk about their experiences and how excited they were was great for me. And then ultimately doing that so that you can find the right fit for you because you want to find a program and a community, that's the best opportunity for you.
• 35:54
  Speaker A: Got it? Yeah. And it's funny because as you were describing that advice and that process, it made me think immediately of me inc and the first phases of that. So it's perfect. Well, listen, I really appreciate both of your time today, Rebecca and Andrew. It's just been really interesting to talk about life at Kelly and know to see or just learn about this journey in terms of careers and what you all are doing Rebecca in the career office and how you've experienced that firsthand, Andrew. So thank you so much, both of you, for making time to do this.
• 36:27
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 36:28
  Speaker C: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 36:29
  Speaker A: So thanks, everyone, for tuning in to another episode of the Clear Admit podcast. Stay tuned for more episodes and please remember to subscribe, rate and review this show wherever you listen. Sam.