Latest / Pod Save America / “Racist Hall of Fame.”

Transcript

“Racist Hall of Fame.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Later in the pod, my conversation with Politico's Tim Alberta,
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: whose new book about the Republican Party in the Trump era...
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: Triggered the president to lash out at former House Speaker
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Paul Ryan, so sort of, whose side are you on there?
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was the only good news of the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: whole weekend.
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: Watching him just lash Paul Ryan one last time, it
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: was a treat.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: It was a treat.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Alien versus predator, whoever wins, we lose.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: But first we're going to talk about a lot of news,
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: from Donald Trump's racist attack on a group of Democratic
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Congresswomen to the latest episode of Dems in Disarray. To
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: some of the new developments in the Democratic primary from
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: the Biden and Sanders campaigns. A new lever to leave
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: it dropped on Saturday.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: We had a great episode. I harangued an actual seismologist
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: about my problems with the Richter scale, the logarithmic scale
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: for measuring earthquakes. Plus, just a fantastic episode. Andy Richter,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Diggory Chaney. Did you book Andy Richter on the Richter's
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Kill episode by design?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I just thought about that.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: It was happenstance, and we did ask Andy about that,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: and he said that every joke is new to him.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Iris stopped by Aaron Ryan. It was a great episode.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Also, if you didn't catch it before the weekend started,
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: we recorded a special bonus pod last week with World
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Cup champion Megan Rapinoe, who Love It called the Babe
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Ruth of telling Donald Trump to go fuck himself.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Accurate. Accurate.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: And finally, we are on tour this week. We will
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: be in Denver on Wednesday and Salt Lake City on
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Thursday with our friend Aaron Ryan. Grab your tickets at cricket.com
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: slash events and come see us. If not, you'll hear
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: the Denver show is our Thursday pod and the Salt
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Lake City show is a Friday bonus pod. All right,
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: let's get to the news. Just when you think Donald
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Trump has run out of lows to hit, he finds another.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Along with birtherism, Charlottesville, and shithole countries, the president has
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: given us a new entry in his racist hall of fame,
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: a tweet where he told representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Rashida Tlaib,
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Ilhan Omar, and Ayanna Pressley to, quote, go back and
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: help fix the totally broken and crime-infested countries from which
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: they came. Ilhan Omar has been an American citizen since
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: she was a teenager, and of course the other three
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: women of color were born and raised here in the
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: United States. About A day later, Trump has doubled, tripled,
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: quadrupled down on these racist tweets.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I believe we have.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: A clip of him responding to a reporter's question about
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: it just this morning.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: It doesn't concern you that many people saw that tweet
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: as racist and that white nationalist groups are finding common
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: cause with you on that point.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: It doesn't concern me because many people agree with me.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: And all I'm saying, they want to leave, they can
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: leave now. It doesn't say leave forever.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: It says leave if you want.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Well, that about sums up the Trump presidency, does it?
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I'm not concerned because many people agree with me. Guys,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: I realize this isn't, At all surprising, coming from Donald Trump,
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: he has been, he was a racist before he ran
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: for office, he was a racist during the 2016 campaign,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: and he's been a racist since he's been president. And
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: we know that because he continues to say and do
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: racist things. But where do you rank this statement in
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: terms of how ugly and dangerous it is?
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a hard one.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's up there. It's up there. One you
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: didn't mention was what he had said about Judge Curiel,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: which was the idea that someone who is of Mexican
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: descent can't judge him fairly.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: I couldn't find a single phrase.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: But that's it. But it's all.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: But I thought about that, too.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: You know, it isn't shocking, but it does still... It
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: is still... When I saw it come across the Twitter transom,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I was admitted... I had this sort of, like, pre-discussed,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: not just with what he had said, but with what
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: I knew would come, right? That the correct description of
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: it by Democrats and pundits, the hand-wringing that Republicans won't
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: speak out, the eventual arrival of the half-assed bullshit statements
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: that we've seen today. It's like we've done this before,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: but just because someone's punched you in the stomach before
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: and says, I'm going to punch you in the stomach again,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that when you get the punch, it doesn't
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: fucking suck.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he's just thoroughly disgraced the office again.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: You know, it's hard to talk about because he has
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: completely disgraced himself and the office of the presidency and
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: all those around him so many times. But, like, he's
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: a walking Willie Hortonette. I mean, like, the guy is
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Rachel Grievance personified. And, of course, none of us should
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: be surprised. The Atlantic did a piece where they went back, like,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: four decades chronicling all the racist things he did in
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: business and did in politics. And who can forget the
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: fun birther controversy? sparked this movement that was fully enabled
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: by all the media that is now clutching their pearls
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: and upset at the current iteration of his racism. So yeah,
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: I'm fucking furious and outraged. And of course, right, this
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: started because he saw a segment on Fox and Friends
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: who went on to then talk about his tweets and
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: said he was feeling a little comedic today before then
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: scolding the members of Congress that he attacked and telling
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: them that their words matter and then they need to
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: take what they post on social media more seriously. So
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: we're in the dumbest... continual loop we could possibly find
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: ourselves in. Yeah.
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: And I mean, the immediate trigger was that Fox and Friends, uh, uh, segment,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: but even last week, I think he probably took this
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: from Tucker Carlson did an entire segment on Ilhan Omar
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: and how she should go back to her, her country. And, uh,
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: you know, he has his, his white nationalist hour. I mean,
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: partly that's why I would make a case that this
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: may be the worst racist statement he's made And it's
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: certainly the most explicit.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I think go back.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: To your country if you don't agree said only to
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: people of color is one of the oldest racist tropes
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: in this country. There's plenty of people of color who've
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: heard similar sentiments, comments made to them. And I think
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: it also ties together with very closely, more closely than
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: almost anything else he's said, with a white nationalist worldview,
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: which is America is a white country, and if you
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: are not white, then you.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Are here as a privilege.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: You're a guest here.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: You're a guest here, and you should criticize it. You
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: should be grateful, and if not, you should go back
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: to your country.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Love it is right.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: I think this is the most explicitly racist thing he's
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: said since the Judge Curiel comment, which Paul Ryan, noted coward,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: at that time said it was the textbook definition of
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: a racist comment. He's telling these women... that because of
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: their skin color, regardless of the fact that they were
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: born in this country, that they should go back to
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: some presumed country of origin.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: It is blatant.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: It's also, it's the most un-American thing he's said, I
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: would say, right? It's go back to where you came
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: from because you're not white. And therefore your lack of
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: whiteness means you'll never be fully a citizen, that you
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: can't actually be American. Never. You can never be as
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: fully American as me. Like that's as un-American as it gets.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: It's like, It's deeply unpatriotic.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: You don't want to get into like a tit for
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: tat about this kind of thing, because it's like I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: found myself like I found myself typing. Yesterday was a
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: day of trying to not type out tweets and trying
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: to type out tweets and deleting tweets because I was
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: like angry and I wanted to say something. And I
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: found myself just typing and then deleting like Donald Trump
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: hates America. I did. And I was like, why am
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I going to put that into the world? It's obviously true. Right.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: His seething hatred for anyone who's not white and not
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: for him. His view that you can't really ever fully
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: be a citizen if you aren't white, no matter how
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: long ago you came, whether you became a citizen by
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: achieving it or by being born it, is an expression
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: of a hatred of this country. But of course, even
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: saying that, you feel like you're adding to this endless,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: endless argument in which everyone just spends all day making
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: something simple, complicated, because there's nothing else to say. It's
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: an incredibly racist, un-American comment. It should be denounced unequivocally. People,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: whether you were born here or whether you became a citizen,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: your citizenship is full and irrevocable and everything else is
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: a side joke.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: Well, it also goes to show that this is not,
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: people like to say, oh, this is about illegal immigration.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: It's not about illegal immigration. It's about immigration writ large.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Or even, not even about immigration, it's about race.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: It's about race.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: But I think it is, I think what's important about
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: this comment is You can have racist comments over here
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: and you can have debates, legitimate debates about immigration, who
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: gets to be a citizen, who doesn't, who gets deported,
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: who doesn't over here. But these are fused together under
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: this presidency. And so you have to see these comments
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: and hear these comments through the prism of the ICE
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: raids that have been carried out over the weekend. What's
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: going on at the border? You know, they just announced
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: a rule today that will effectively, they'll try to basically
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: end all asylum protections altogether. It seems very illegal and
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: it will be challenged in court immediately, but that is
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: their goal.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Mike Pence touring a fucking, walking by a group of
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: men behind a fence, refusing to engage with them, treating
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: this like a zoo.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Their goal is not to try to reduce illegal immigration.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Their goal is not to deal with the influx of
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: asylum seekers. Their goal is to have no asylum, to
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: have less legal immigration, to get rid of, deport the
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: 11 million people who are here, who have lived here
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: for decades. That is their ultimate goal. They want a
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: whiter country. I never thought I would be saying that
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: as something that's not an exaggeration of another party, but
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: that is exactly what they're trying to do.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: It's completely explicit.
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: The other thing that they're doing in their efforts to
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: clean up after this racist comment is inserting Israel into
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: the middle of it. I can't Which is completely. First
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: of all, no one was talking about Israel in this
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: current iteration. They're pointing at something that offended them that
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: Ilhan Omar said months and months ago. But this should
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: piss off anyone who actually believes.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: That the U.S.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: Should continue with support for Israel or want support for
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: Israel to be bipartisan. Because Trump is taking support for
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: Israel and throwing it, using it as a human shield
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: in the midst of a controversy about a racist comment.
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: He's harming the ability for U.S. support for Israel to
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: be a bipartisan issue by injecting it here. And his
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: little shithead friends like Lindsey Graham are doing it too,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: and they're just as bad. Well, it's... The president said
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: a group of members of Congress should go back to
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: their country.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Everything else is small. Everything else is.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: I don't even want to gauge the whataboutism this time
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: because it is so like, no, you don't get to
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: talk about Israel. You don't get to talk about the
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: policies you disagree with. You don't have to talk about
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: any of that shit. He told American citizens to go
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: back to their country.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: They were wearing short skirts. They must have been fucking
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: asking for it. That's how it comes. That's what they're saying.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: And if you're a Republican politician and you can't just
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: straight up condemn this, condemn the comments themselves without doing
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: your fucking equivalency and say, even though I disagree with
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: these four women on things, even though they've made all
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: this bullshit, even though, even though, No, even though. Just,
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: it was wrong. The answer is it was wrong and racist.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: That's the only acceptable answer.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: And zero have done that.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, two have called it racist.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Two have called it racist.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Two Republican congressmen have called it racist.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: To me and Collins are out there being like, well,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: I strongly disagree with their politics. These comments are beyond
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: the pale. Don't sink to their level.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: What do you make of the Republican response, or lack thereof,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: in the context of how that has changed over time, right? Like, Tommy,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: you mentioned that Paul Ryan, during the Judge Curiell uh...
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: controversy said this is the textbook definition of a racist
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: comment you know kevin mccarthy is the leader of the
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: house now you don't hear anything or anything kevin mccarthy
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: nothing from mitch mcconnell why has it gotten actually worse
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: from republicans even as his approval rating has stayed the
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: lowest of almost any modern president.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Because trump is uh.
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: conno for mortal combat He punched through their chest and
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: ripped out their spines.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: All the other ones. And he killed all the others.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: Like Mark Sanford, any member of Congress who ever stood
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: up to him is gone now.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: They were not reelected.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: And they are scared to death of a primary. And
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: that's the only thing they care about. Paul Ryan denounced
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: what Trump said about Judge Curiel back when he thought
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump was going to lose. Yeah. So he was...
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: he didn't really think there was any cost to it.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: He was going to say what he thought was true.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Even shithole countries, I think they were a little bit
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: more forward. You know, I do think over time it has,
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: and I think this is why it's useful to, you know,
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: I think the first reaction is, well, Trump's always racist.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: We shouldn't be surprised. And that is true.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: But I think we are becoming, you know, the whole,
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: had a lot of talk about this when he first won, like, oh,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: don't normalize Trump. It has been normalized, right? Like bit
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: by bit, he is chipping away at what, Our standards
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: of outrage.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: They were, I think, stronger around shithole countries, except for
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: Tom Cotton, who basically concocted a lie to try to
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: sell that it was about something else.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And I just want to correct myself. Sub-Zero had the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: spine ripping.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: I was going to say Sub-Zero.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: That's my bad to all the Mortal Kombat stans out there.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Of which I am one.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I will say that, finish him, yes. I will say, though, however,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I never was a master of the fatality moves. And actually,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump... not isn't either. He does do an uppercut
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: over the pit. That is his move. He does send
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: people falling into the pit. The other challenge is the
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: feedback loop is closed for Trump. He hears about these
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: members of Congress from Tucker Carlson. He sees a Fox
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: and Friends episode that spins him up. They go on
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: to defend him. And the Republicans know that like that
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: closed loop will never be broken. The racist circle will
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: remain unbroken.
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: Then you see people like Brit Hume, who everyone in
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: Washington pretends is a serious reporter out there defending the
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: comment and denying.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: That it was racist, right? Like there's no, there's no
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: way for us to.
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: Inject rationality into the closed loop of awful that he
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: has created with his buddies at Fox.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Declaring it's not racist. I immediately, it's textbook, like basically saying, uh,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Nothing can be, you know, racism is awful, but nothing
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: can be racist. That's sort of the Brit Hume philosophy.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: Basically for them, like racism is only specific racial slurs
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: and slavery. I guess those are the only, that's the
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: only way you can be racist.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It reminded me of the, I always think about
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: it when people like Brit Hume say that something obviously
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: racist isn't racist, which is the. the Chris Rock line, like,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: what do you have to do to be racist? Do
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: you have to shoot Medgar Evers? Like, is that what
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: we're down to?
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Is that what we're at? Yes, that's where that is.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, he's an idiot.
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: On the other hand, Brit Hume works for the, you know,
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: the greatest producer of racism in our nation.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: So, you know, maybe he has.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Some expertise here. But that is an important point, too. Like,
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: the pipeline from Tucker Carlson directly to the president of
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: the United States, Tucker Carlson, who has become a white nationalist,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: who has embraced this worldview... Laura Ingraham, too. I mean,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: the primetime hour of Fox is maybe the most poisonous
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: force in this country, not only for what it's doing
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: to the people who are viewing it, but what but
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: the pipeline it has to the president states, the most
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: powerful person in the country. And so, you know, we
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: go back to these fucking and, you know, we've had
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: this debate before, but the Democrats choosing to go on
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Fox or go on to the Foxtown Hall like on
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: a day like today, it certainly seems like Elizabeth Warren
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: had the right idea.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. And on a lot of.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Other days.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Is there anything that Democrats can do, speaking of Democrats,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: beyond statements of disgust and all of our tweets, which
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: I know are just a couple tweets away from.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: From getting this good rid of this guy.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: And it's just a couple, a couple, a couple of
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: headlines in the New York times using the word racist
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: away from just ending it all.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Listen, obviously, uh, I am no fan of ponderous New
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: York times, uh, writing that avoids describing things as.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: They really are.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I do not hear in 2019 here in 2019. I
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: do not believe it as the source of our ills, but, uh, yeah,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would look to Democrats in the Congress
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to not just let this one go by. Right. I
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: saw some people talking about censure. I think that that's,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: So just a direction to go.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: So Pelosi is working on a resolution. So, you know,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: what do you guys think about this? It's going to
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: be a resolution of disapproval, which is less than censure
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: and obviously less than impeachment.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I'm for something.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: I do something and I'll be for it. I don't
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: really care if it's this or censure because whatever. I'd
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: like to get to this later, but I have now
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: become fully radicalized for impeachment.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: And I'm happy to agree. Great, we've got all four
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: of us now.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: So censure then seems like a half move to me.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: But do something and make all the monsters on the
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: right vote against this.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Let's try to create a political cost.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: Let's get caught trying to make it hard for a
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: Republican to be racist in 2019 openly.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: I totally agree with that. I'd be for censure because...
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: in the eyes of the press, because it has been
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: used so infrequently in the past, it'll be seen as
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: a bigger deal. But you're right, Tommy, like censure resolution,
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: you know, a resolution of disapproval, whatever it may be,
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: it's not going to have a substantive effect, but we
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: are in, we are at a moment now where it's
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: just do something, use the power you have to do something.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: And I think that is, and we're about to talk
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: about this, but that seems to be where so many
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: of these problems and debates are stemming from is I
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: don't think it's fair to, criticize people for not using
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: power that they don't have, I think it is imperative
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: that we criticize people for not using power that they
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: do have.
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: And right now, the House Democrats have limited power. They
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: can do, you know, censure. They can do disapproval. They
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: can do impeachment. They can do hearings, subpoenas. They should
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: do it all because we are in a national emergency
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, look, when we discover what it
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: is to overreach, you know, we'll let you know. When
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: we come across what.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: We're not there yet.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: When we see some overreaching... When that day finally comes,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: that terrifying day in which Democrats have overreached.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: We'll hit an alarm button.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: When the president is telling American citizens and elected members
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: of Congress to go back to their home countries, people
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: of color, then, yeah, I don't think we're in danger
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: of overreaching in the response to that.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Can I make just one small point about that, too?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And it's, again, another one of those things where you're
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: typing out tweets and deleting them. But I saw a
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: lot of people say, so Trump said, go back to
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: where you come from. you know, to these four people,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: three of whom were born in America. And they kept,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of the news is like, first of all,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: you know, this member was born in Detroit and this
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: member was born in New York. And it does accede
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: to Trump's line of thinking. Citizenship is citizenship. It's full
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and total and equal, no matter if you were born
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: here or not. It's a bedrock principle of this country
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: that citizenship affords you certain protections. And once you have it,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: it can't be taken away. And once you earn it,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: it is the same as anyone else's. And I just
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: can't stand the idea of, go back to where you
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: came from, but she's from the Bronx. That doesn't matter.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that Ilhan Omar wasn't born here. It
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter at all. It's not what Trump cares about,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: and it's not what we should care about.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: It sort of, it reminds me of, you know, Barack
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Obama's a Muslim, and then he says, no, he's not
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: a Muslim, he's not a Muslim. It's like, and, you know, famously,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Colin Powell went on to meet the press and said,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: the real question is, So what if he was?
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: What if he isn't? That's the real answer I wish
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you'd given us. Fuck you. What if he is?
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, and, you know, there's a really good argument
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: to be made that Ilhan Omar, who has talked about
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: how much she loves this country over and over and
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: over again, is probably more grateful for the United States
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: than most of us who did nothing to earn our citizenship,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: but just get born at the right time to the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: right person. She came here when she was a teenager
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: as a refugee and had to work hard To, you know,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: take a citizenship test.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: She took an oath. She did all this work.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: She's a member of fucking Congress. She worked her way
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: up from being a refugee to representing her fellow citizens
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: in Congress. She is the representation of patriotism and what
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: it's supposed to mean to be an American. And of
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: course Donald Trump doesn't get that because he hates this
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: country and anyone who doesn't love him because he has
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: never worked or cared.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: See, you got the tweet out. There you go. I mean, yeah.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: You're just going to yell for another 20 minutes.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd like to see any of Trump's kids last
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: four years in a refugee.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Camp in Kenya and then be as successful as she
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: has been.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So in Trump's racist tirade, he also makes reference.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: at the end by saying, uh, I'm sure Nancy Pelosi
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: would be happy to arrange the travel back to the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: fictional home countries.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: That's a joke. He's doing a joke. He's doing a joke,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: putting a joke in there.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: So feeling comedic this morning to quote Fox and Prince.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: And that was a reference to what had until that
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: point been the biggest political story of the weekend, which
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: is the continuing intraparty feud between house democratic leaders like
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Nancy Pelosi and the four democratic Congresswomen who Trump attacked. Uh,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Last week, there were stories about how members of the
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Congressional Black Caucus were getting tired of primary threats from
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: the Justice Democrats, a group that was instrumental in getting
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: AOC elected last year. And on Friday night, the Twitter
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: account for House Democrats quote tweeted a week's old tweet
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: from AOC's chief of staff, Justice Democrat Executive Director Chakrabarty,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: where he criticized Representative Sharice Davids, one of the first
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: two Native American women to serve in Congress, for supporting
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: the border bill in reply to another tweet.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Here's the quote.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I don't believe Sharice is a racist person, but her
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: votes are showing her to enable a racist system. The
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: house Democrats Twitter account responded with the following statement that
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: was also retweeted by Pelosi's deputy chief of staff quote,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: who is this guy and why is he explicitly singling
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: out a native American woman of color? Keep her name
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: out of your mouth. Shoycott said he considers Congresswoman David's
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: a friend, encourage her to run and was merely responding
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: to another tweet that mentioned her.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Um, Just explaining that fight made me feel crazy.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: What is this continuing fight between Pelosi and the squad
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: really about? What's the source of the conflict here?
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's been a long-running feud between
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: Pelosi and AOC that has started when she didn't want
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: to be part of a climate committee that Pelosi put together.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: Everything was magnified enormously when a bunch of Democrats.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Voted in favor of a border bill that.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: Those four members you mentioned earlier voted opposed for very
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: legitimate reasons. And then, you know, there have been multiple
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: Maureen Dowd columns now that have taken a gigantic fan
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: and fanned the flames of this, you know, back and
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: forth between them, which got us to here. I think,
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: you know, there's a whole roiling debate now about who
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: is at fault. And I mean, I feel hearing you
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: describe that gets my frustration up on all sides. But
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: I land on feeling like Pelosi and leadership needs to
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: do a better job here because I think we often
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: give her a pass because we know that part of
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: her strategy is to defend moderate members and keep the
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: majority and take hits for people that have tougher reelections.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: And I think by any measure, that strategy is failing completely, right?
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Like Sharice Davids, who was mentioned here, is a rep
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: from Kansas. She is not helped by being a part
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: of this controversy. She didn't treat her name, but she
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: also didn't quote treat it from the House Democrats account.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Like, she doesn't want that to happen. That House Democrats
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: tweet was crazy.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: It is absurd.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: And so, like, the challenge structurally is going to be
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: that Pelosi's team wants unity among the caucus. They want
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: everyone to come together and to fall in line. And
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: for AOC and people like Ayanna Pressley, they know that
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Pelosi and her team never wanted them to be there
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: in the first place because they ran primary campaigns against
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: Joe Crowley or Mike Capuano, people that the leadership would
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: have preferred to stay in place. So I think that, like,
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: What should have happened when that Maureen Dowd piece was
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: printed is whether or not you agree that she was
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: singling out for women of color, Pelosi should have read
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: that concern from lots of people online or AOC herself
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: and called her and said, here's what I meant. And
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry if you took it that other way.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Take her belief, literally, take it sincerely, you know, that
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: she felt singled out in this manner. Because like, these
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: are women who are singled out constantly by the president
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: of the United States and have felt like there are
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: legitimate threats to their lives that have been increased because
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: of attention online and nasty tweets and all this shit.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: And, like, be a little bit more cognizant of that. Yeah,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I think that Pelosi... should have, I mean.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: You know, I tweeted over the weekend that I think
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: they should, it's crazy to have these arguments on Twitter
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: like this, these, and, and Shoykot said this himself. Um,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: he's like, I'm not interested in response to the house
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Democrats tweet. He's like, I'm not interested in substanceless Twitter
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: debates of which this was one. I think there are
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: plenty of legitimate fights to have as a party, legitimate
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: criticisms of Nancy Pelosi, legitimate criticisms of the squad, and
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: they should be had in public.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: But This sort of shit, when you get down to
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: that House Democrats tweet and this and how we're all
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: talking about this now, this is useless. And I do
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: think that all these people should get in a room
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: together and work this out. And I think Pelosi should
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: be the one who takes the lead on this because
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: she's the leader.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: She's in leadership.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: She should invite them to her office and have a
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: conversation and stop this bullshit. And the smart point that
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Pelosi made in the caucus last week was, if you
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: have a problem, don't criticize people's motivations and attack people
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: personally on Twitter, come see me. And then the House
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: Democrats attack, which is run by Hakeem Jeffries. And then
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: they go and do that and they start a Twitter fight,
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: which is just, it's wrong. You don't do that. I mean,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: it's unproductive.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: It's unproductive. It also, you know, Brian Boitler said this,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: that a lot of this feels like referred pain. You know,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: the squad, right? They are members of Congress, but they
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: also represent, I think, a lot of people who feel
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: frustrated by inaction and a sense of stasis that they
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: see on the part of Democrats, including Nancy Pelosi and
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: the others that they view as the establishment. So on
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: top of that, I think it's not just about the
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: controversy over a climate change committee and whether it has subpoena.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: It's not just about a border bill. It's about, I think,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: a deeper challenge inside of the Democratic Party. And, you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Brian Boitler said this on Twitter that he referred to
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: it as a kind of referred pain for the fact
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: that there hasn't been impeachment, because there's a sense not
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: just amongst voters, but among some members of Congress, including
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: this new younger generation that was voted in by a
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: kind of more diverse, more feisty Democratic base, that they
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: are not getting what they had hoped for out of
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: House Democrats. They're not getting enough fight. They're not getting impeachment.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: They're not getting the kind of hustle and intensity that
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: they were looking for. And so I think there's a
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: sense that we're kind of pushing up against the bounds
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: of what Democrats are willing to do in Congress. And
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: until we see, I think, greater action on the part
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: of the leadership, these kinds of things will happen, I think,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: again and again.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that the debate over the border
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: bill is very instructive and sort of where a lot
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: of this stems from, though I think the ultimate source
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: is the anger over the lack of movement on impeachment.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: But on that border bill, and we've talked about this before,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: I think that Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and the
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Senate Democrats... and a lot of the House Democrats, simply
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: did not even try to fight hard enough to include
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: more protections in that bill. They didn't, and they should have,
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: and they should be criticized for that. That said, once
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: you get the final border bill, it's either a yes
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: or no. And if they had voted down that border
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: bill and not provided the funding that Trump asked for,
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: they wouldn't have shut down a single detention facility. The
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: government would not have stopped what they're doing. In fact,
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: they just would have been more overcrowded. They would have
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: been the same thing. So it was, both votes were
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: pretty shitty, but to that, you know, as AOC chief
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: of staff did to accuse a whole bunch of Democrats
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: who voted for this border bill of enabling a racist
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: system is not fair.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: It's just not fair.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And like, there's a lot of Democrats who voted for
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: this bill, especially, and that's why Sharice Davids got brought
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: up the, you know, one of the first two native
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Americans in Congress, she voted for it. Lauren Underwood, The
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: youngest black woman in Congress voted for it. Antonio Delgado
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: voted for it. Katie Porter, very liberal, voted for it.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: You can't just take a huge shot at people and
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: say they're enabling a racist system like that because it
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: also obscures the truth about the bill, which is it
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: was a shittier bill. Pelosi and Schumer should have fought harder,
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: but it did provide some small measure of relief. And
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: the only way to really end this The detention of
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: these people, of these children, the only way to close
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: down these detention facilities is to get Trump out of office.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: That is the only way.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: I think you're right that those members, including a bunch
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: of brand new, really progressive, really great members, were handed
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: a horrifically shitty political situation. I do think that the
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: public conversation about the crisis at the border and family
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: separation in particular.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Has not fully... understood the depth of the problem. I agree.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: Family separation sounds like a temporary thing where a kid
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: is away from a parent and then it gets resolved.
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: When in fact, the American Academy of Pediatrics says no
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: child should be placed in detention because even short periods
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: of detention can cause psychological trauma and long-term mental health risks.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: I am concerned, and I think a lot of activists
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: who I heard from after I talked to Warren Binford
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: are concerned that we are doing irreparable permanent damage to
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: children along the border.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: We are.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: And None of us should be surprised that these members
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: of Congress didn't criticize Donald Trump for being a racist.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: because when Mike Pence went and saw 400 men in
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: cages without cots to lie down on, without a single pillow, with, like,
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: fucking tinfoil blankets, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator Mike Lee, and
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: John Cornyn were there with him, and none of them
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: said a goddamn word. They experienced it. They smelled the
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: smell that the pool reporter called overwhelming horror. They knew
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: it was like 90 degrees in the room. They didn't
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: say a goddamn thing. They don't care about these people.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: It is a humanitarian crisis. It is a travesty. It
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: is something that we are going to grapple with for
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: a country for decades, that we have let this happen,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: that we are letting this happen in our name right now.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: My point is the border bill has passed, and arguing
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: about that vote over and over again right now is useless.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: And every member of Congress who's still upset about it,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: every activist, every person who's still upset about this should
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: be like, okay, Pelosi and Schumer.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: You negotiated a shitty bill. You fucked us. What's next?
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: What are we going to do about this? Because this
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: problem isn't solved and we need to do something else.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: And I think we have limited options here. We just
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: have to be honest about that. Only controlling the House.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: But I think the focus now should be on, okay,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: what points of pressure can we put on Pelosi, Schumer,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: and then McConnell and Trump now to get something done
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: and just to keep the fight moving forward? And I
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: think sometimes when you have these Twitter fights, it is
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: always about looking backwards and yelling at each other and
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: just becomes completely unproductive.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Let's put pressure on them now to do something.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the question that comes out of this, right? Okay,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you didn't want to fight here. You didn't fight hard
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: enough here. Where's the fight?
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Well, that's where you get to impeachment.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: But that's what I mean. That's where you get to impeachment.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Because I do think it's, you know, after a while,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, we didn't fight here. Are we going
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: to fight on Trump's racist comments? Are we going to
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: fight on impeachment? Where... At some point, you have to
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: choose where you're going to have the battle.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Well, and the choice, but the choice is in some
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: ways made for you. There is one tool that the
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: House Democrats have, besides passing fucking useless message bills and
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: resolutions of disapproval, and that is the tool of impeachment,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: and it is warranted. And if they do not use it,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: then they are not using the only power that they have.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: And so I think, like you started by saying, Tommy,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: so much of this frustration is about the fact that
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: we have a lawless president who has committed crimes and
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: is responsible racist and has a and embraced a white
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: nationalist worldview in the White House. And we have the
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: opportunity to at least go on record and have impeachment
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: hearings that may, may influence the political calculus enough that
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: it can help get him out of office in 2020.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So you might as well use it.
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: Just I want to get to impeachment in one second.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: But I think another thing we're seeing AOC and the
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: Justice Democrats are talking about primarying a bunch of candidates,
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: including CBC members, which is why when you pick up
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: the newspaper, you see background quotes from leadership aides saying
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: she's only a woman of color when it's convenient. None
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: of the things she's fought for are aligned with communities
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: of color, and a group is funded by elitist white liberals.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: She's a puppet. That's gross.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: That is an insane, offensive, disgraceful thing to say. So, like,
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: I get why the bad blood— Also, don't be a coward.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: Put your fucking name on that.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I get why the bad blood is— Why would you
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: want to put your name on that? It's such a
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: terrible thing to say.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: On the left. But, like, again— Leadership said that, right?
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: So that's why I think the onus is on Pelosi
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: and her team to fix this and get in the
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: game here.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Now, back to impeachment.
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: Like, for a while, I've constantly said that I, if
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: I remember Congress and someone said, you should be for
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: impeachment because that puts you on the right side of history,
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: tell your kids, like, where you stood in this moment,
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: that would convince me, I think, I hope. But I've
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: worried about the politics. I am now pretty firmly convinced
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: that the politics of not impeaching are way worse because
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: it is resulting in this shit. Because We have looked
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: more feckless in our oversight capacity than I ever thought possible.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: And I'm not entirely sure how we got here or
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: who to blame, but it is a problem. And it
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: is going to check our ability to provide oversight of
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: the things Donald Trump is doing, stop him where we can.
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: And it's also going to make Democrats who were rallying
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: and marching two years ago depressed as hell and wondering why.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: And I want to look, it may be satisfying to
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: lay this all at the feet of Nancy Pelosi and
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: But it is not necessarily true.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: Just say, I don't blame Nancy Pelosi. House leadership aid
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: could be any one of a number of individuals in
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: a number of offices.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: I'm saying it may be satisfying to lay the failure
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: to impeach at the feet of Nancy Pelosi. And I
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: think she does bear a lot of responsibility for it
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: because I think if Nancy Pelosi wanted to try to
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: whip votes in favor of impeachment, she would be able
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: to make some headway. But a lot of these new
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: members who we love and who we've talked about are
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: legitimately afraid of this because of their districts, because of
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: the polling in their districts. And I think the question is,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: How do we persuade and convince these members to come along?
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: Because if the votes are there, Nancy Pelosi is not
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: going to stand in the way, but she's clearly not
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: whipping in favor of it. And so I think sometimes there's,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: you know, as much as we can criticize Pelosi, there's
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: too much of a focus on her. And we don't
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: realize that she is, in fact, protecting a lot of
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: members and not just asshole blue dog conservatives, people that
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: made the House majority that we all like and we
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: all voted for who are very progressive. who are afraid
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: right now. And we have to make sure that they're
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: not afraid. We have to persuade them to not be
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: afraid of this.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Two things are true. One, she is, she has said publicly, privately,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: she wants to take fire for impeachment on behalf of
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: members who don't want to do it while at the
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: same time, she's not doing enough to make impeachment possible.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: You know, to Tommy's point, the politics, this is, this
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: is what changed my mind too. Uh, the politics of impeachment,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: they're unknown. The politics of, of, almost maybe someday impeaching,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: are garbage. They're terrible.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: We're living through it now.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Does it feel good? I've been saying this, I feel
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: like for months, we are in this twilight, semi-impeached, feckless
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: oversight period that seems to have absolutely no end in sight.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: No end in sight. You know, if you had said
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: to people that this is what oversight would look like
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: if we win the House before the election, people would
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: have been horrified. They would have been horrified that this
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: is what they get. We We spent so much time
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: talking about how important it was to get that gavel,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: how important it was to have subpoena power, how important
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: it was to do oversight. Does anyone listening believe that
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: this is what we meant? That this is the level
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: of oversight we were hoping for?
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: Hey, we might get Bobby Mueller up there in a
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: couple weeks. Or maybe some more closed-door hearings with various
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Trump administration officials.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: So I don't know what the politics of impeachment ultimately
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: look like, but one of the cases I'd be making
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: to some of these members who are maybe more afraid
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: of it is, look at where we're at now. You
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: think this is good? You like living in this permanent
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: state of being asked whether or not you're for impeachment?
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: If you think impeachment is bad politics, we can do
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: it this fall and make the big case, and then
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: you can campaign on whatever you want. But if we
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: don't impeach soon, we are going to be talking like
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: this for a year, and it is going to be ugly,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: and it is going to be unhelpful, and it's going
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: to be worse than having done nothing.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: And again, I think Seth Moulton, congressman from Massachusetts who's
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: running for president, made a great case for impeachment over
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: the weekend. And you know, Moulton said, look, I think
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: we should use the fact that the Republicans in the
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: Senate are obviously going to exonerate him to our advantage
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: by saying, we don't expect them to do the right thing,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: but before we go into the 2020 election, we want
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: every member of the Senate to go on record. Do
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: you support Donald Trump and his obstruction of justice and
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: his crimes and his xenophobia and all that shit, or
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: do you not? And, you know, I don't think Susan
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Collins and Cory Gardner are And some of the other
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: ones want to take a vote on impeachment. That doesn't
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: necessarily mean that they will not vote to exonerate Trump
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: because I don't, you know, I don't think they have
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: that much courage. But they don't want to take that vote.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: They do not want to take that vote.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: Let's talk about the Democratic presidential primary. There were several
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: reports this weekend about how Joe Biden may be entering
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: a new phase of the race where he more aggressively
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: engages with the other Democrats in the field, especially on
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: health care, where over the weekend he said this about
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: his opponents who support Bernie Sanders' Medicare for All bill. Quote,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: I oppose the Republican Party trying to get rid of Obamacare,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: and I oppose Democrats who are. I don't know why
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: we'd get rid of what in fact is working and
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: move to something totally new. Bernie's been very honest about it.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: He said you're going to have to raise taxes on
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: the middle class and end all private insurance. Sanders responded
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: by accusing Biden of making the same argument as insurance
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: companies and Republicans who ignore the fact that what you
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: pay in higher taxes, you'll save in premiums, copayments, deductibles
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: and out of pocket payments, none of which will exist
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: under Medicare for all. I want to get to the
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: health care debate itself, but first. Biden has mostly ignored
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: his opponents and launched his campaign with the promise not
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: to speak ill of other Democrats. Why do you think
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: he's mixing it up now? What do you think the
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: strategy is?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Cause he was winning. Cause he was, it was, it
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: was working so well. And when the strategy is working,
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: you change it.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: That's right. I endorse that.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I mean, I, I clearly, I mean, look, everyone always
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: says that one thing when the campaign starts and then
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: Kamala Harris, you know, threw a combo at that debate
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: that knocked seven to 10 points off his, uh, his
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: lead in some places.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: And now, of course, he's fighting back, right? Yeah, right, exactly.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: So here we are.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: She did that one. She did that Raiden move, you know?
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: By the way, though, this is the right strategy. And
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: I think it's... You can't run a Rose Garden strategy
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: in a primary.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I think it's the right strategy.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: I also think it is, you know, we just talked
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: about substance-less Twitter spats. This is a completely, you know,
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: legitimate and very important debate to have that both Joe Biden,
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders, and every other candidate argue about healthcare and
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: the future of our healthcare system.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: It's an important debate to have. We should have it.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: No one should be shying away from that just because
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: you don't want to like talk about other candidates. It
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: should be a fair debate. It should be an honest debate.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: It shouldn't get personal, but we need that debate.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: And I agree with what Dan said on the Thursday
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: pod that I don't want to make a healthcare debate
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: about Obama's legacy or being opposed to Obama's legacy.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I really hate that.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: I do think that Medicare for all versus a public
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: option is a very important substantive policy fight we should
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: be having. I was at the grocery store yesterday. pick
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: up some milk, some yogurt, some things. Listen to Dan Pfeiffer.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: A lot of dairy.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Talk to Senator Bennett.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: And he, to his credit, is not doing particularly well
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: in the national polls, but he is making a compelling
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: argument for the public option over a Medicare for all position.
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying I come down on his side, but
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: like he at least is talking about the downside of
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: what that might mean in the general election. Because right
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: now we have the Trump administration and waging a lawsuit
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: against the ACA that would just eradicate it. All the
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: popular things for existing conditions, everything would go away. And
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: Bennett's basically making the case that it will be a
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: harder rejoinder for us to point that out if Medicare
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: for All takes away private health care from, what, 180
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: million some odd people, which is something we should reckon
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: with today because we're going to reckon with it down
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: the road.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Like, have the conversation.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: So Biden today came out with a plan that would
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: expand the Affordable Care Act by making the subsidies more generous.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: adding a public option and making that public option premium
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: free for 4.9 million uninsured Americans. Mainly this would be
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: the people who live in States that did not choose
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: to expand Medicaid, these Republican States. And so if you
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: live in those States and you would qualify for Medicaid,
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: you could go into the public option premium free for
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: other people. There would be, you know, some small costs to, uh,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: buying into the public option, but it would be more
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: affordable than a lot of insurance, private insurance plans right now.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: So that's Biden's plan. Um, And what do we think
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: of that, and what do we think of the debate
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: with Bernie? What do you think, Levitt?
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: So I think it's an important debate. I do think
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: that there's... I think the health care debate we were
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: having between the kind of Medicare for America plan and
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: the Bernie plan, I think, was a really good and
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: important one. I think what Biden's introducing, I think... adds
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: some of the complexities that a lot of the critics
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: of Obamacare point to, which is the benefits are complicated.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: They are diffuse. It's hard to understand who's being helped
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: and who's being hurt. It makes the system more complicated.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: I think that that's a legitimate critique of this kind
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: of a direction. But Biden is making a case for
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the kind of center-left politics he's practiced basically his whole life.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: And what he's saying is, There is a coalition of
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: voters who actually want my kind of politics, who aren't
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: part of this new and louder, more progressive wing of
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the party, that there is room for someone more to
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: the center. And he's going to stake his candidacy on that,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: which I think shows some integrity because it's who he is.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: I think it's a fair debate to have. I agree
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: with you and Dan Tommy, too. I don't like making
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: this about Obama's legacy. If you're for the Biden plan,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: you're for Obama. And if you're for the Bernie plan,
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: you're against Obama. And part of the reason that's true
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: is because in 2018, when he was campaigning, Barack Obama
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: said that Medicare for All is a good idea. That's
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: one reason why that debate's sort of silly. But I
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: do think getting into the details of the plans are important.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Biden's sort of, right now, at least rhetorically... It's a
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: bit of a lazy argument that he's making, even though
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: his policy I don't think is lazy at all.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: His policy is a real policy.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: But the argument is we don't want to trash Obamacare
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: and start from scratch and have all these people wait
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: and stuff like that. If we went from Obamacare to
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Medicare for All, there'd be a four-year transition under Bernie's plan.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: People's health care aren't going to get trashed in the meantime.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: It's going to be a transition to Medicare for All.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: We don't go to nothing first.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: We don't go to nothing first. Medicare for All is
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: going to be incredibly difficult to achieve. I think there
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: are both political and substantive issues around moving to a
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: Medicare for all system. But you've got to make the
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: case for what those obstacles are, both on the political
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: side and on the substantive side. You know, one thing
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: that Ezra Klein raised this the other day that I
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: hadn't even thought of is, you know, if we have
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: a single payer system and the government is the only
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: place that's providing insurance to people, what happens when there's
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: another Republican in the White House, and Republicans are running government,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: and Republicans decide that the government insurance plan is not
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: going to cover birth control, that it's going to do this.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: By only having one single insurance system in the entire country,
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: that also raises challenges, just as our mixed system does
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: right now, our private insurance system does right now. Right now,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: we are at the whims of private insurance companies, and
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: they arguably have way too much power. But the question is,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: what happens when the government is the only provider of
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: health insurance? And I think it's a legitimate debate to have.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: And I also think the financing is a very legitimate
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: debate to have. Because Bernie sort of skims over. He's like, oh, well, yeah,
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: you're going to pay more in taxes, but you're not
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: going to have any premiums, co-pays, deductibles, everything. Well, how
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: much more in taxes? And how much am I actually
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: going to save? And is it going to happen all
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: at once, where suddenly I'm not going to pay premiums,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: but suddenly my taxes are going to go up? What
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: is the difference going to actually calculate out to for
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: the average American? And Because he hasn't had a specific
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: financing plan attached to his Medicare for All bill, we
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: don't know that.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: I also do think there's another side to the argument around, oh,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: what if the government is in charge of the insurance system,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: then one day Republicans will be, which is we have
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: seen what happens when we try to do something more moderate,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: which is that they call it socialism and try to
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: destroy it anyway, right? So I see the argument both ways,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: which is.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: They're going to try to destroy it no matter what.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Right, and it's sort of like, well, we have a
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: bigger problem here. What do you do with... With a
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Republican Party that's just basically like a rearguard action against
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: any change or modernity at all.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the health care debate will not solve that.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: No. But like, hey, moderators, the next debate. Can we
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: do like 30 minutes on these details? Right. Can we
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: not skip around to silly stuff like dig in?
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: You said he was lying, and you said this was absurd,
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: and you, like, yeah, actually dig into the details of
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: this because they are complicated, but the American people and
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: voters deserve an honest debate about this.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: And not a hand raise on some of the most
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: complicated issues.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: CNN's saying no hand raises.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: They will do no one-word answers and no raising of
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: the hands, which is great.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Good for CNN.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: CNN will never miss an opportunity to just kind of
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: give MSNBC just a little bit of a fucking jab.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: No, and I'm for it.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't mind it.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: There was another New York Times story last week about
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: Bernie's shifting strategy now that he's either losing support or
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: at least stagnant in the polls.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: I think you could argue that. Quote, while Ms.
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: Warren is making incursions with some of Mr. Sanders' progressive backers,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: campaign aides insist that they view Mr. Biden as a
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: far more significant threat because of his support from some
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: of the working class voters who voted for Mr. Sanders
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: in 2016. Does this make sense to you guys as
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: a smart strategy on Bernie's behalf?
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: And it's hard to tell if that's an honest political
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: assessment or a little sleight of hand that you tell
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: the press, a little head fake.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, you've got to be.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Concerned about Elizabeth Warren dropping $ 19 million in fundraising and
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: getting a pretty big boost in the polls and having
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: an amazing infrastructure built in Iowa.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Like, both things should worry you.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a super tough position for Bernie
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: to be in. because, and then, you know, after that story,
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: he was asked this weekend, why should you be president
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: and not Elizabeth Warren? And he said, Elizabeth Warren is
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: a good friend of mine, and all I can say
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: is the following. What people understand is that for decades now,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: there have been great speeches, great legislation, and great plans.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: What we need is a mass movement of millions of people,
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: which I am prepared to lead as president. So that
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: is the argument. That is as close as he's going
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: to get, which, what do you think about that argument?
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: I think it, well, you know, Bernie has been very, um,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: very kind lately. Bernie's response to Biden, I thought was
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: actually a pretty fair, you know, critical attack on his
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: health care plan. I think that is what he believes.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: He does not want to criticize Elizabeth Warren on the merits.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: And I will say the gulf between Bernie Sanders and
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: his and some of his staff and supporters is wide, wide, wide.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Wide, wide, wide, very wide, a yawning chasm, if you will,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: a gaping maw. But no, but that's the that's That's
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: a true articulation of their difference, right? That Bernie believes
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: you need a political revolution, whatever that may be. And
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren has, I think, had a more substantive critique
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: of power structures, right? That's sort of been the difference,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: I think. And that's what he's describing there. It's interesting, right?
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: It's something we talk about a lot, but that ideology
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: just isn't as salient to a lot of people, or
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: it's less salient to a lot of people than we realize,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: that for so many Biden supporters, Bernie is their second choice.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: For so many Bernie supporters, Biden's their second choice because,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: you know, these are, I think, I think it's fair
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: to say that Bernie is the furthest left mainstream candidate.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Biden is the furthest right candidate front runner. And yet
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: you have all these people that look at these two
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: people and say, I want one of these two. Now,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I think you can make an argument that there's some
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: lingering misogyny and other factors that go into what people
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: view as electable in there. But even beyond that, there
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: is a kind of a kind of confusion in that
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: there are people who want both big systemic change and
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: are also worried about big systemic change that lead them
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: to kind of the comfort of Biden and the change
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: and promise of revolution of Bernie.
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: And I think a lot of voters just probably don't
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: really know much about the distinctions and they're just naming
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: a couple of people they know.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is such an important point that we always,
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: always gloss over.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: You're seeing a lot of frustration from team Bernie and they,
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: as much as They started in a good position with
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: name ID and money and a pretty decent polling average
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: to start. They feel like they're hurting because they are
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: not new in the eyes of the media, because he
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: ran last time. And because Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris, they're
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: seen as new. So they're frustrated by that. They feel
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: left out of headlines about polls that show them doing
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: incredibly well. But the headline is the movement of some
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: of the lesser known candidates. And I get that frustration.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: And I feel their pain in some ways. But in
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: other ways, I do think that um, making a argument
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: constantly that is about grievance and attack on the media
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: is a very tough strategy for Democrats because Republicans can
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: do that and they can attack the New York times
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: and say it's shitty and whatever, and then go on
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: Fox and just live in this right wing ecosystem.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Democrats can't do that.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: I also, I mean, I think Bernie's argument that it
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: is going to take more than speeches, plans, and all
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: the rest to bring about systemic change is going to
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: require a movement of millions of people is 100% correct.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: The tough part for him is he says, well, I'm
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: the one who should lead that movement. Well, why are
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: you the one who should lead that movement? Nina Turner,
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: who is one of his supporters in Congress, who is
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: one of those people who's a bit more critical outwardly
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: of other Democrats than even Bernie Sanders, to say the least.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: But she made an interesting point today, which is, you know,
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: her argument is, well, Bernie has been there forever.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: He is the original.
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: And he was the one who had the courage to
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: run in 2016 when it was hard. And he didn't
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: look like he had much of a shot against Hillary Clinton.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: And he stood up then. And that's why you should
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: be with him now. And I actually think that might
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: be one of the better arguments that he can use
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: and we'll get around to. But the other thing, and
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: this gets to your point about complaining about the media,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: in that story, that New York Times story about Bernie,
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: you've got Jeff Weaver, his closest strategist in there being like,
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: this isn't about making friends or sharing pictures of your
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: dog or your recipes or blah, blah, blah.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, no, no.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: That's what running for president is. It's getting people to
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: like you and vote for you. I realize we wish
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: that presidential elections were just about who has this policy
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: and that policy and that, but we live in the
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: real world, and people need to like you to vote
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: for you as president. And sometimes you wonder with the
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: Sanders people, and I don't think this is about as
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: much as Bernie, but some of the supporters are like,
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Do they want people to join the movement or do
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: they just want to be right?
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Well, also, I think part of this flows from Bernie himself,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: who is very comfortable making his argument and is, I think,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: less comfortable with some of the softer aspects of campaigning. And,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: you know, it's not that you can call that his
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: flaw or a flaw in the system. But I think
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: also there's something to be said for someone who's like,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: this is what I this is how I want to campaign.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: And if I can win this way, great. If I can't,
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I won't. And you see people around him trying to
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: justify that. But yeah. But even to that argument around
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: he's been there, I think it goes to a central
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: problem here. Elizabeth Warren didn't run against Hillary Clinton in 2016,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: but there is no way you can faithfully make an
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: argument that Elizabeth Warren hasn't been in these fights for
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: a really long time. She was ringing the bell on
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: bankruptcy before the financial crisis.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: She created a government agency.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: She created the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. She was tapped
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: to lead... that bureau, but was seen as so toxic
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: to Republicans because of how hard she would fight against
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: banks and corporations that she wasn't allowed to have the position.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: So I think this is a central challenge for Bernie.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: It's not just Hillary Clinton now. There's another person who
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: is an avatar for a lot of these policies and
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: for this movement. And it forces him to reckon with
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: the weaknesses of his campaign and his candidacy. And they have,
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: as of yet, not been willing to do that. And she,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: and she does the politics and she puts in the time.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: And you saw that this week at Netroots Nation where
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: she went and a lot of the activists there, very
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: liberal activists said, well, yeah, she's just, you know, over
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: the years she's reached out to her, she's talked to us. She's,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: she's put in the time to build these relationships, which is,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: sort of the unsexy work of politics, but very important
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: when you are trying to win a primary.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: I also think that Bernie Sanders himself has been incredibly
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: focused and disciplined about attacking a corrupt system in a
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: corrupt town of Washington and the way money washes through
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: it and distorts things. His team isn't always quite as precise,
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: and there's a lot of it, to say the least.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: A lot of shrapnel.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of shrapnel, like attacking, like, Democrats as
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: corporatists or saying, you.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Know, like, Let's go after ThinkProgress today.
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: Really, like, pretty personal attacks that suggest that if you
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: don't like Medicare for All, that you don't want, like,
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: poor people in the same healthcare system as you. Like,
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: things that, I kind of, I read them and I'm like,
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: do you really believe this or is this an effective message?
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: Because you're right that, like, look, he's not there to
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: make friends and that's fine. I mean, but this isn't
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: a reality show. This isn't, like, the road rules challenge, right? Like,
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: you're there to find voters and get their support in
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: any way you can. And, like, Over time, I do
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: think this stuff can chip away at people liking you
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: or being a second-choice candidate.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Elizabeth Warren has been attacking a corrupt system,
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: and she does it without targeting in a negative way
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: a lot of the voters that she needs to help
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: change that corruption.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: And her team is super disciplined too.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: Like you don't see them working the refs nearly as
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: much on, on Twitter about coverage as some of the
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: other campaigns.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting too, because Bernie, especially for this campaign,
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: you know, brought in Faz Shakir as his campaign manager
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: and Faz who had worked for Harry Reid in the past. He,
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: you know, he's of that world. That's Warren's world as well,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: where you build political relationships, you talk to people. So,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I still think there's sort of hope to
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: have that sort of influence on Bernie that he's got a,
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: play the game to win the game. You know, I
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: think he can still do it, but that's his challenge.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: I also, there was a moment in 2016, I think
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: Bernie launches this long shot candidacy. You know, I don't
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: know what he would have said under a lie detector,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: but at the beginning, it certainly seemed more as a
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: way to push against some of the assumptions of the
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party. And it caught fire in a way that
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: I think even his people didn't anticipate, which is, I think,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: why that their tone of being so hostile and kind
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: of aggrieved kind of lasted for so much longer than
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: it should have. But there was a moment in 2016
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: where he stopped wearing the button down collars for a second,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: got a nicer suit, combed his hair, gave a foreign
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: policy speech. There was a moment where you saw Bernie
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Sanders say, I'm going to show you that I actually
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: can do this, that I'm not just here to be
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: a gadfly, that I'm not just here to make an argument,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: an argument he won, by the way, on policy and
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: on politics. I'm going to try to be president. And
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: to me, that tension is always there in how Bernie campaigns.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Do you want to win? Do you want to win
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: the argument or do you want to win the race?
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: I think his people are rightly frustrated at some of
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: the ways they felt like the deck was stacked against
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: them within the DNC and the debate schedule and some
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: of the other things that happened in 2016. But it
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: is also true that for a while he was running
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: three days a week and not missing any Senate votes.
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: And that's just an untenable situation to be in if
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: you're running to win.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Okay. When we return, my interview with Politico's Tim Alberta.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: On the pod today, we have Tim Alberta, chief political
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: correspondent for Politico magazine and the author of the new book,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: American Carnage on the Frontlines of the Republican Civil War
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: and the Rise of President Trump.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: Tim, thanks for joining.
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: Hey, this is as good as it gets. I've done
• 56:08
  Speaker 5: a lot of media this week, but nothing cooler than this.
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, you're so welcome.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: So a couple of months ago, Joe Biden kicked off
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: a debate among Democrats when he said that history will
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: treat this administration's time as an aberration, and that the
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: fever in the Republican Party will break once Trump is gone.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: Other people say that Trump is a symptom of a
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: broader rot within the GOP. What did your reporting for
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: this book tell you about this debate?
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: You know, that's a really foundational question, actually, at the
• 56:40
  Speaker 5: heart of the book. You know, we see all of
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: this polarization and disunity in the country right now, and
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: I think it's fair for some people, to sort of instinctively,
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: reflexively want to lay it all at Trump's doorstep. And
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: I do think that's a mistake just to the extent
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: that I think what Trump really did effectively was that
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: he saw some of these things building long before anybody
• 57:02
  Speaker 5: else in the Republican Party did. He saw this angst.
• 57:06
  Speaker 5: He saw some of this nativism rearing its ugly head.
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: He saw this disgust with the political class and a
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: lot of people feeling left behind by politicians of all stripes.
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: And he really tapped into it and weaponized it and
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: exploited it. in a way that nobody else was able to.
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: And I do think that, look, for all the attention
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: on Trump and every day he gives us cause to
• 57:25
  Speaker 5: have these, you know, really existential conversations about, you know,
• 57:28
  Speaker 5: where we are as a country and as a culture
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: and in government. But I do think we have to
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: think beyond Trump because he's going to come and go.
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: It is a transient office. He won't be president forever.
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: But I do think that these same forces that sort
• 57:41
  Speaker 5: of propelled him into office, this wave that he rode
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: into office, is still going to be here when he's gone.
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: And I do understand what Joe Biden was trying to say,
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: what the vice president was trying to say, which is that,
• 57:53
  Speaker 5: you know, these Republicans in Washington have, you know, got
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: themselves a case of Stockholm syndrome, and they're so scared
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: of this guy that they're unwilling to speak out. And
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: that has sort of tainted the party as a whole.
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: And he has remade the party in his own image
• 58:07
  Speaker 5: in this fell swoop. And that once he's gone, they'll
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: return to normal. But I also do think it's pretty naive,
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: because I think that Trump has sort of sent all
• 58:15
  Speaker 5: of us through the looking glass here. And I think
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: the political system itself is now so vulnerable to disruption.
• 58:21
  Speaker 5: And you're beginning to see a little bit of it
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: on the left, not to compare anybody on the Democratic
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: side to Trump, but you're seeing some of that same
• 58:27
  Speaker 5: asymmetrical warfare now. And so I think there's a big,
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: big question for everybody well after Trump is gone, which
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: is how do we get a lid on this thing?
• 58:37
  Speaker 5: How do we sort of bring some normalcy back to politics?
• 58:40
  Speaker 5: And how do we restore some of the just basic
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: conventions and institutions that made government stable.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: Well, it seems like the only way you're going to
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: do this on the right, which is where the xenophobia
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: and racism is, at least that Trump has exploited, is
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: if some Republican politicians somewhere stand up and say that
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: this is wrong and reject this. So, you know, we're
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: right now in the middle of a whole bunch of
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Republicans putting out sort of mealy-mouthed on Trump's racist tweet
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: from the weekend. I think I've counted now only two
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: House Republicans have actually called them racist.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: Why is that?
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: Do you think, I mean, because, you know, some people
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: on the left will say, Um, this is because a
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: lot of Republicans actually agree with him. And then a
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: lot of other people will say, well, they're just too chicken,
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: chicken shit to say anything. I mean, in, in your experience,
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: talking to all these Republican politicians for the reporting in
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: this book, what, where does the resistance to stand up
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: to Trump come from?
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: You know, if, if, if I had to break it down, John,
• 59:45
  Speaker 5: I would probably say that it's three quarters chicken shit
• 59:48
  Speaker 5: and one quarter actually do agree with him. Um, And
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: I'll tell you, retracing some of the earliest stages of birtherism, which,
• 59:56
  Speaker 5: of course, you guys all lived through and you remember vividly.
• 59:59
  Speaker 5: I mean, there were, and I have stories in the
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: book about some of these members of Congress, Republican House members,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: who behind closed doors were constantly agitating about birtherism. And
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: Boehner and Cantor would look around like, who the hell
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: are these people? And then, of course, you know, Boehner
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: has this great quote where he talks about, look, Congress
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 5: is nothing more than a slice of of the American people.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 5: You have some really, really smart people and some really,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 5: really dumb people. You have some really, really nice people
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: and some people who are Nazis. And so naturally, you're
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: going to wind up with some sort of fringe, conspiracy-minded folks.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: And that also means, yeah, you're going to probably wind
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 5: up with some racists in Congress or at least some
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: very racially insensitive people if I'm going to be very
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: generous in Congress. But I don't think that's the majority.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 5: I think the majority of these folks are just terrified
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: of Donald Trump. They're scared of their own shadow. Look,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 5: we all know that in politics... Self-preservation is the name
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: of the game. It drives everything. And when you are
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: a member of the House Republican Conference or of the
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: Senate Republican Caucus, and you see what happened to Mark
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: Sanford or Jeff Flake or even Bob Corker, who says
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 5: he stepped down on his own, but he was going
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 5: to have a hell of a hard time keeping his job,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 5: or Justin Amash, who just left the party, you look
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: around and you realize that no longer is it the
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: ideological divisions in the party that determine where you are
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: as a you know, the big post-George W.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: Bush debate.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: Are you part of the establishment or are you part
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: of the insurgency? Are you a conservative or a moderate?
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: All of those divisions have really fallen by the wayside, John,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 5: and we're left with this very basic division of are
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: you with Trump or are you against Trump? And if
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: you're not with Trump, you are taking your career in
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 5: your own hands and you're running a very real risk
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: of losing your livelihood, and that's more than most of
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: these folks are willing to gamble with.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: I guess the question is why has this reluctance to
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: challenge him like gotten actually worse over time, even as
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: he remains one of the most unpopular presidents in modern history?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: Is it just a fear of Trump or are other
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: political incentives and other factors coming into play here?
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 5: It's a good question. I would answer it two ways.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 5: I think first, it's not just a fear of Trump,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: but it's a fear of Trump's base. I think for
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: most of these folks, and now you did see back
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: in November of 2018, you did see some of the
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 5: Republicans in Congress who were more critical of Donald Trump,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 5: who did keep the White House more at arm's length.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: And it's not coincidental, of course, that most of these
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 5: Republicans were those who were coming from more suburban-held congressional
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 5: seats with more diverse populations, upscale, college-educated, white-collar. And a
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 5: lot of those folks understood that they weren't going to
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 5: win or lose based on whether Trump's base was mobilized
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: behind them. They had to appeal to a broader slice
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 5: of the electorate, and ultimately a lot of those folks lost.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 5: And so what you are left with, at least in
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 5: the House, which is always going to be a better
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 5: case study of kind of where our politics are, you
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 5: are left in the House Republican Conference with an overwhelmingly
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: disproportionate number of Republican lawmakers who hail from these demographically
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 5: homogenous districts, where if you are on the wrong side
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 5: of Trump's base, then you're shit out of luck. You're
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: probably going to lose your job. And so I think
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: that that's a big part of it. It's not just
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: that they're afraid of Trump, that he's going to call
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 5: them late at night and bitch them out, or that
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: he's going to embarrass them at the Oval Office, but
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: it's that if he turns on them publicly with a tweet,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: or if he gives even the faintest whiff to his
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: political operation of, I don't like this guy, we should
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 5: go nose around the district and see if we can
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 5: find somebody, they're not willing to take that gamble. I
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 5: also think the second part of your question, John, is,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump's approval rating writ large has not been very
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 5: good throughout his presidency, right? It typically ranged between 38
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: and 44. But what's interesting, and I talk a lot
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: about this in the book, is that almost like clockwork,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: with very few exceptions, his approval among self-identified Republicans is
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: right around 90%, very consistently. And that's really, really good.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: As a matter of fact, at this point in his presidency,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 5: two years and change into his presidency, he is the
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: most popular Republican president. with the Republican base in the
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 5: last century, save for George W. Bush in the aftermath
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: of 9-11. So even while he has alienated the broader
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: electorate and certainly lost the support of moderates and independents,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: he is still really, really strong with self-identified R's. And
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: I think that's what makes it so difficult for GOP
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: politicians to seek any distance from him.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: How much does the media environment on the right influence this? Because,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: you know, I believe that Trump wouldn't be able to
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: have this hold on his base without not only Fox,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: but most of the other conservative media environment, with a
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: few exceptions. I know you used to work for National Review,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: but it seems like the National Review's weekly standards got
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: out of business. But some of those sort of establishment
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: conservative publications don't really have a big audience or a
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: base on the right anymore, and that what's left is
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: sort of the Foxification of the entire conservative media, and
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: that is the engine that sort of keeps... Trump's base scared, angry,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: and loyal to Trump?
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: 100%.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: You cannot possibly begin to overstate just how fundamental Fox
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 5: News has been to this administration. And it's not just
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 5: with what they do in terms of defending the president,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: but it's in, we always talk in media about, you know,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 5: it's not just the stories that you cover, but it's,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 5: it's the stories that you don't cover. And, That is
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: so true when you look at Fox. You could not
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 5: begin to count the number of times over the last
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 5: 28 months when there was some major defining moment that
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: in any other administration would be sort of a legacy crisis.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 5: Something that's gone totally off the rails in the administration
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: or Trump has said or done something that is just
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 5: beyond the pale so far outside of the mainstream of
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 5: the American presidency that we would all be sort of
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: shocked by it. And if you read the newspaper, if
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: you turn on CNN or MSNBC, if you get on
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 5: Facebook or Twitter, that's all anybody can talk about. But
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: if you are, and I'm going to generalize here because
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: you have to demographically speaking, if you are a white
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 5: conservative voter over the age of 45, odds are you
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 5: are getting most of your information from Fox News. And
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 5: the simple fact, John, is that on most of those
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: nights when all of us are paying attention to those
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 5: big would-be legacy-defining stories, Fox News is not covering them.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 5: And if they are covering them, To the extent that
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 5: they are, it's mostly about the left-wing media overreaching and
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: making a mountain out of a molehill, etc.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: etc.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 5: So you can't begin to appreciate how foundationally important Fox
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 5: News' air cover is to Trump's presidency. If he lost them,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: he would be done.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, tomorrow.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 5: And he knows that. That's why he's on the phone
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: with Laura Ingraham. That's why he's on the phone with
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: Sean Hannity three or four times a day sometimes. I mean,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: he understands that. that he has to keep these people
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 5: behind him or else his base disappears.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: So a lot's already been made of the things Paul
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: Ryan told you for this book, which certainly set the
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: president off.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: We've had a lot of fun.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: Here in Positive America taking on Paul Ryan. My view
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: of Ryan is that he has put up with Trump's
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: racism and instability because he wanted lower marginal rates and
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: entitlement cuts. I know that may be slight over-exaggeration, but
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: am I wrong? Like, why else did Paul Ryan put
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: up with Donald Trump?
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 5: No, I mean, look, honestly, John, I actually don't think
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 5: that's much of an oversimplification. I think that Ryan understood
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: full well, and I reported this back, you know, I
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 5: don't know, a year ago or so, so it's old news.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: It's in the book, but, you know, I was the
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: first to report that Paul Ryan on election night 2016
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 5: in Janesville, Wisconsin, I was there, and I was told
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 5: that he was ready to give a speech that night,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: that he was certainly under the impression that Donald Trump
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: was going to lose and probably lose very badly. And
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 5: so Paul Ryan had prepared to give a speech that night,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: basically putting Trumpism to death and turning the page on
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: this very dark and ugly chapter in the party's history
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 5: and declaring that henceforth we will not be this guy's
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: party and it's time for a new day tomorrow on
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: November 9th. And when Paul Ryan is watching those returns
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: come in, he is just stunned. I mean, he's slack-jawed
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: and he can't really believe it. And he comes out
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 5: on stage and he gives these very brief remarks. And
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 5: I told him afterwards, I said, it looked like you'd
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: just seen a ghost. And you could just see it
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: written all over his face. And of course, Trump does win.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 5: And he puts that speech right back into his jacket
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 5: pocket and decides then and there, you know what? Look,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 5: I've got a choice here. I can remain true to myself.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 5: I can be critical of the president as he had
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 5: been throughout much of the 2016 campaign. I can call
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 5: him out for all of his xenophobia and all of
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 5: his misogyny and all of these other things. But if
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: I do that, I'm not going to be the Speaker
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 5: of the House. There's just no way. It's not going
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: to work. I can do that or I can basically
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 5: take a vow of silence. I can decide that it's
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 5: not worth it, that maybe other people in the party
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 5: can hold him to account and they can police him.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 5: But if I'm going to be the Speaker of the
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 5: House and if he's going to contract out essentially all
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 5: of the policymaking to me and let me have this
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 5: two-year window to try and remake, you know, the American
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 5: government in the image of what I've been dreaming about
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: as a movement conservative for decades. You know, Paul Ryan's thinking,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: then that's a pretty good trade-off. And of course, his
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 5: friends are sort of wincing, saying to him, do you
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 5: know what this is going to do to you? And look,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 5: Paul Ryan is not dumb. The guy had been around
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 5: politics his entire adult life. He understood that this was,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 5: as his buddies called it, you know, Paul's deal with
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 5: the devil, but he thought that it was worth taking.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 5: And from everything I understand, John, He didn't really think
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: twice about it. He was not tortured in making that decision.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 5: But I do think that certainly, you know, six months later,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 5: a year later, and certainly two years later, by the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: time he was retiring and leaving Congress, the weight of
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 5: this had fully set in on him. And he understood
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: that as a guy who had always been really popular
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: throughout his congressional career, even when he had proposed, you know,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: really divisive policies, he was a really well-liked guy in
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 5: Congress by a lot of Democrats. And he realized that
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 5: his reputation was was kind of permanently tarnished, and that
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 5: really did bother him. And I could see it on
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 5: his face when we sat down after he retired for
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: our interview in Janesville, and I could tell just within
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: 30 seconds of talking to him that he was ready
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: to unload and that he felt like this was his
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: chance to sort of clear his chest and get these
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: things off of his mind.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's the obvious concern about his reputation, but
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: do you think he regrets the deal at all, or
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: does he fundamentally think the tax cut was worth it
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: And by the way, I, you know, you hear this
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: from him, you hear this from Gary Cohn, from Dina Powell,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: from Reince Priebus, you know, we all stopped him from
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: doing worse shit.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: Do you think they.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: Feel good about the deal that they made in terms
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: of the direction of the country?
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 5: Man, it's such a good question. And I did ask
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 5: him and he didn't really directly answer me, but knowing
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 5: him pretty well and knowing a lot of people around
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: him and having covered him for years, my hunch is
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: that he does not regret it. And he primarily, I think,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: doesn't regret it for the reason you just stated. It's
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: not so much the tax cuts. It's not so much
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 5: the funding for the military. I think he is proud
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 5: of those things, don't get me wrong, and of other,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 5: you know, some of the D-reg stuff, no question. But
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 5: I do think that Ryan viewed himself as a part
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: of this sort of guardrail system, more or less, that
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: he and Reince Priebus and then John Kelly, who Ryan
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 5: became very close with, and Rex Tillerson and Jim Mattis,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 5: Ryan had... this network of five or six people with
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 5: whom they sort of collectively formed this force field, as
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 5: they felt, around Trump, and that they were buffering him.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 5: And they would basically say to people, look, if you
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 5: think it's a shit show now, imagine how much worse
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 5: it would be if we weren't here, if we weren't
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 5: sort of controlling this guy and trying to mitigate the damage.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 5: So I think in that respect, he does not regret
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 5: making that deal. But I think it does weigh on him. Again,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: you could sort of see it all over his face
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 5: when we were having that conversation.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: So you've covered Republicans in the conservative movement for a
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: long time now. You know, we can all have debates
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: about is the Democratic Party moving too far to the left?
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: Is the Republican Party moving too far to the right
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: in sort of normal times? Does what's happening to the
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: party under Trump, the xenophobia, the racism that he's stirring up,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: does it worry you? Does it scare you just sort
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: of as a journalist and a person who's followed this?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: Because it does seem like something even beyond the typical,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: you know, reporting and analysis we do about politics, especially
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: on a day like today.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, look, I'll tell you, it does worry me for
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 5: a couple of reasons. A, I've got three little kids,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 5: and I want them to, you know, as cheesy as
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: it may sound, right, you know... the president, the American
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 5: presidency is so unique, because you're not just the head
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 5: of government, you're the head of state. And as the
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: head of state, which is very different, by the way,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 5: from most countries, but as the head of state, you know,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: you're supposed to be sort of projecting to the masses
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: some degree of moral leadership. And so look, I've got
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 5: three little boys, and I want them to be able
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 5: to look up to the highest leaders in our government
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 5: and see role models, right?
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: So that's a part of it.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 5: I'm certainly concerned to that degree. But I'll say this, John.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 5: I'm also really concerned because of what we saw yesterday.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: It's not so much that I think the Republican political
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: class is increasingly populated by racists and demagogues. I don't
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 5: really know that that's the case, but I do think
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 5: that the Republican governing class is increasingly populated by people
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: who don't have the stones to stand up and call
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: out what's wrong when it's wrong. And I think that
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 5: that's a huge problem because we as a country have
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: always had And obviously, nobody listening needs the history lesson
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 5: on the moral shortcomings of the United States. But we
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 5: as a country have always had intense periods of racism,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 5: of xenophobia, of misogyny, of sort.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: Of otherism, right?
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: And we have traversed those periods, and it's been rocky.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 5: And ultimately, I think most people would agree that the
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 5: better angels of our nature tend to win out in
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 5: the end. But I do think that part of the
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: reason that better angels tend to win out in the
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 5: end is that You have people who are willing to
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: stand up and speak out and make their voice heard,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: even if there are really severe consequences. And I don't
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 5: think you're seeing much of that in the Republican Party
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: right now. As a matter of fact, I think you're
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 5: seeing almost none of it. And I think that more
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 5: than anything else is really concerning. I do think that
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: there are an awful lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 5: who are good people, who are really, really, really worried.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: about what Trump is doing, about what Trump is saying,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 5: and they are this close. They've got their finger hovering
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 5: over the tweet button, and they're so tempted. They really,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 5: really want to send that tweet and rebuke the president
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: and signal to their constituents and to their family members
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: and to their friends and the people who they care
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 5: about that, look, this is not okay. I can't stand
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: for this anymore. But again, when you throw that political
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 5: self-preservationist instinct into the mix, all bets are off. And
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 5: It's really discouraging to see so many people who I
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 5: think otherwise do have a conscience and who do have
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 5: a real problem with what the president is doing not
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 5: speak out and not make their voice heard on it.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: That is what worries me because I don't see it
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 5: changing anytime soon.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: I always think that those of us who sort of
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: analyze politics for a living probably spend a little too
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: much time focused on you know, people's character traits and
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: their consciences and like what they're doing about politics on
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: an individual level and not enough focus on sort of
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: larger structural incentives, which is often how politics works. Do
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: you see any incentives out there for Republicans to potentially
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: pull their party back from the brink or back from
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: Trumpism if he does lose in 2020?
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: I do, actually.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 5: And and I could be wrong on this, of course,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: but I really do. I mean, one of the real
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 5: Shakespearean ironies of this entire stretch of time that I
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 5: chronicle in the book is that Reince Priebus was the
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: one who commissioned this autopsy after Mitt Romney's 2012 loss
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: to Barack Obama. And the RNC autopsy project was oriented
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 5: around this idea that we cannot be a party that
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 5: relies on older white voters. It's just not going to work.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 5: The math does not add up over the long run. And,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 5: of course, he becomes chief of staff to the guy
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 5: who basically wiped his ass with the autopsy. And it's
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 5: worth noting, though, that that math has not changed. And
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 5: in fact, really, the demographic death spiral of the modern
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 5: Republican Party is only accelerating. And so I do think
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 5: that if Donald Trump were to lose in 2020, and
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 5: certainly even if he were to win a second term
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 5: and then left the White House in 2024, I do
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 5: think that you still have enough smart, ambitious people in
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 5: the Republican Party who are going to take a look
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 5: around and realize, look, even if I want to try
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 5: and channel some of Trump's appeal to working class America,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 5: And to some of these economic anxieties, we cannot just
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 5: be that party anymore. It's not going to work at
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 5: the ballot box. It's not sustainable. And certainly when you
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 5: look at some of these people already who are beginning
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 5: to maneuver very slowly but very clearly behind the scenes,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 5: Nikki Haley, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, you can see them
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 5: trying to split that difference. You can see them attempting
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 5: to channel a little bit, harness a little bit of
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 5: that Trump populist appeal behind while also trying to broaden
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 5: it out a little bit with the understanding that the
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 5: party cannot be branded as a xenophobic entity if they're
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 5: going to win over voters in Arizona and Texas, and
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 5: certainly already in states that have gone off the board,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 5: like Virginia and New Mexico and Colorado, the electoral math
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 5: just doesn't work. So I do think that out of necessity,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 5: the party will self-correct. I think it's just a matter
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: of when, because it might not happen immediately. It might
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 5: take 10 or 12 years, it might take a couple
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 5: of beatings at the ballot box before they realize that
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 5: the path they're on is just not sustainable.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have a fear that both the conservative
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: media propaganda machine and, you know, gerrymandering and voter suppression
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: is sort of propping this up for now. But I
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: do think you're right demographically in the long term, if
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: you can sort of get past all that, which is
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: a big if. Yeah, that they can't survive demographically forever.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: But They're doing their hardest to hang on now with
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: everything they can. Tim, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: The book is American Carnage on the Front Lines of
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump. Everyone,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: go give it a read, and thanks for joining us.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 5: Hey, this was a treat for me. Thanks a lot.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: Thanks to Tim Alberta for joining us today. And we'll
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: see you on the road.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: And that's that. Sub-Zero. There's two kinds of people in
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: this world. There's Scorpion people and there's Sub-Zero people. Get
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: over here. Also, what a wonderful time it was in
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: the 90s when two different characters just had two different colors, right?
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: Scorpion was like orange. Sub-Zero was blue. Totally different characters.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: Totally different.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in the early phase of teaching children
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: how to not just kill but mutilate their opponents.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: I don't remember the.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: Good stuff.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: Does anybody remember the code to get the bloody version?
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: Ending on a high note, I see. A, B, B. A, B, A, B, up, down.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. That's the Konami code. Up, down, up, down, left, right. Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, select, start.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: Because you can play with a friend. Get those Contra lives.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: Get those Contra lives.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: 99 lives.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: Get that laser.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: Get that laser.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: Bye, everyone.