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Annette: A Mother Learns That Survival Is Not The Same As Living · Holding It Together (Kinda)

• 1:12
  Michael: A mother's world turns on an instant when severe mental illness enters a home.
• 1:21
  Michael: It narrows to a single objective.
• 1:26
  Michael: Keep this family afloat at all costs.
• 1:29
  Michael: Moms adapt to constant crisis.
• 1:33
  Michael: They quiet their own dreams.
• 1:34
  Michael: They wear this heavy armor of this full-time crisis manager.
• 1:42
  Michael: But surviving that storm and holding a house together, even if it's just kinda, through the deep pain that their child may have often leaves moms feeling entirely hallowed out.
• 1:56
  Michael: They get erased by the very role that demanded everything from her.
• 2:18
  Michael: She's gonna talk to us today about the trials and tribulations and the silent grief that, you know, she had to endure while trying to keep her family attacked through her son's battle with mental illness.
• 2:32
  Michael: And more today, I I also want to celebrate Annette.
• 2:37
  Michael: Because she's also here is an example of what can happen on the other side of that survival.
• 2:42
  Michael: We're talking about how she picked herself up, she reclaimed her voice, she dove headfirst into her her uh art and her creativity, and and she's now officially opening her very own storefront to uh sell her craft and bring it to the world.
• 3:06
  Michael: Well, good morning and hello everybody.
• 3:08
  Michael: And I want to say a special hello and welcome to Annette.
• 3:10
  Michael: How are you, dear?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I am doing okay, Mike.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Doing okay.
• 3:15
  Michael: You're holding it together, kinda?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, kinda, kinda.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: We just gave a going-away party for our younger son who is uh moving to California in a couple of days.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: He and his girlfriend, so a little scattered, but you know.
• 3:29
  Michael: I saw that message and I and I meant to say congratulations, I think.
• 3:33
  Michael: Uh you know, good for him.
• 3:35
  Michael: And and you know, and and that actually is a topic that we should discuss.
• 3:39
  Michael: We could discuss that right out of the chute here.
• 3:41
  Michael: But first, I always ask everybody, and I I hope I know the answer to this from you already.
• 3:46
  Michael: What's what are you working on, Annette, that you could tell everybody about that's got you fired up and excited right now?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, it's just been a whirlwind these last couple of weeks, months, whatever.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Not only were we getting our son ready to launch off to California with his girlfriend, we did a wholesale trade show last week, which was fantastic.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And as of today, we're moving my business, Towny Swag, into a new space where we'll have a retail shop, we'll have our whole operation there.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just really exciting.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of big doings going on here.
• 4:26
  Michael: Yeah, and I figured you would be talking about Tony Swag and how excited you are about it, and how that's great.
• 4:31
  Michael: And we'll talk about that at the end of the episode because I like it.
• 4:34
  Michael: It's really cool stuff, and you are becoming more of a national reach, not just the local.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
• 4:41
  Michael: Very cool, very, very cool.
• 4:43
  Michael: So, all right, so we were just talking about your youngest son, and this isn't anything that that you and I even talked about talking about, but let's talk about it.
• 4:54
  Michael: Your older son got well, let's start here.
• 4:58
  Michael: Take me back to the time when your older son began to exhibit manifest uh symptoms of mental illness and what that was like in terms of pulling your family down that that whirlpool, that eddy, if you will.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, rat hole.
• 5:20
  Michael: You said it, not me.
• 5:21
  Michael: Yeah.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's uh it's a whole like underground series of rat holes.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, Mike, and and you know this the first time we sought help for our older son, he he was three.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: We had just brought our younger son home from the hospital, and Cam was he adored this new baby, but he took out whatever aggressions he had on me.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, really violent for a three-year-old.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, so we sought some help and it really wasn't any help at all.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we just kind of dealt with temper tantrums as he was growing up.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the turning point for my husband and me was uh my husband was in corporate, you know, making jobs of money, doing really great.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: But when Cam, our older son, was in middle school, you know, things really started to ramp up with his behavior issues, and I just could not handle both kids, a house, everything we had going on in our lives.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we made the very difficult decision to have Jeff, my husband, leave the corporate world.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he he had had a background in construction management, so he he started his own thing doing that.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it went, you know, financially, it was a major, major hit.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we made it work.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at least when he was in corporate when he was physically here, he was not mentally here.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was the the pressure was immense, and the pressure on me to try to raise these two kids, one with you know hindsight is always 2020, but I didn't realize it back then that he was showing the beginnings of severe mental illness.
• 7:25
  Michael: And so even at three with these behavioral issues, if you look back on it now, you you target that and say, I know it's not normal to, and it's not like what we do.
• 7:36
  Michael: We don't standard standardly, if that's a word, we don't put a mental illness moniker on a kid that little.
• 7:46
  Michael: But looking back on it now, you think that that was the telltale signs that were leading into some of this?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, and I I should have seen the forest for the trees back then.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I grew up, my my family of origin, my dad, brilliant man, but clearly, clearly suffered from similar mental illness that our son has.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, I grew up sort of in survival mode, not knowing that that wasn't normal.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when we had Cam and you know, all of his temper tantrums, like, oh well, it's like a little mini version of my father.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it was just kind of normal.
• 8:31
  Michael: It was hard to do.
• 8:31
  Michael: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:32
  Michael: You're kind of like, ha ha, he's just like my dad, ha ha is just like grandpa.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I threw the short stick.
• 8:38
  Michael: Right, right.
• 8:39
  Michael: Uh and so did so did Cam, unfortunately.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 8:43
  Michael: So I mean, right out of the shoot, you are protecting the youngest.
• 8:50
  Michael: Jeff's sacrificing his career and your affluence, basically, for the ability to maintain stability in the home, and you're just the mom trying to hold it all together.
• 9:03
  Michael: Yeah.
• 9:04
  Michael: Um, and and so that started very early on.
• 9:08
  Michael: As he aged and got older, you said now we're in middle school and creeping up into high school.
• 9:15
  Michael: Did it did his illness manifest itself in different ways, or or was it always kind of right there?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, it it definitely did.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he started I mean, I think it was self-medicating, because his he was always full of angst.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing in his life was ever good enough that we could give him the world and he would want the moon too.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing was good enough.
• 9:50
  Michael: It's interesting in that because I've known you for 10 years and at least 10 years, right?
• 9:55
  Michael: I've known you for a long time.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been more than I was trying to figure that out, but yeah.
• 10:00
  Michael: And I've known this situation for that long, and I think this is the first time I've ever heard you say that.
• 10:07
  Michael: And and in now putting it together and knowing the situation, obviously that's like, wow, well, that's still the case.
• 10:14
  Michael: That is still the case.
• 10:16
  Michael: And so you for you to identify it now, like you said, hindsight's 2020.
• 10:21
  Michael: Did you identify it then that nothing was good enough and he was full of angst, or is it now you can see it and say, oh god, even when he was 15 years old, nothing was good enough?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think we realized it then too.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there just was no pleasing him.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: No pleasing him.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, what a what a horrible way to be.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it must have been really tragic for him.
• 10:45
  Michael: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:46
  Michael: And it's still a struggle, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is, but and I'm sure we'll get to where he is now later on.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: He is doing beautifully, and I don't see that.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see the the angst.
• 11:01
  Michael: The pissed off at the world angst.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 11:04
  Michael: Yeah, well, and and and you're right, and we could talk about what things looked like 10, 15 years ago, and we will, but because it was a very interesting ride to say the least.
• 11:15
  Michael: But so right out of the right out of the the the gate here today, you you started talking about the sacrifices that you made as a mom, the sacrifices that your family had to make to compensate for this mental illness.
• 11:30
  Michael: And you know, as I say to I try the message of this podcast is yes, your journey is unique, but there's a whole boatload of people that are on a similar journey to yours that you can learn from, and that pe and that will learn from you.
• 11:50
  Michael: So I think it's really important that we keep highlighting that, that we keep that we keep letting people know that this is this is a real thing.
• 12:03
  Michael: You should not feel alone and isolated.
• 12:06
  Michael: And did you guys feel alone and isolated in that way?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, yes, Mike.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, trying to, you know, once we realized that we needed some professional help, like real professional help, he was in early middle school.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we, you know, started seeing therapists and we fought the the the med avenue for a long time and finally just said, okay, let's try meds.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a a whole odyssey trying to find meds that work, you know, a combination of meds that work and w with a growing child, you know, because as they're growing, meds stop working, and it's it's really a crapshoot.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta try lots of different things, and each time you try something new, it's you know, you gotta give it a few months to see if it works.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was years of that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that I think is really important to note is we, you know, I am I'm not a rocket scientist, I'm not an actuary, I'm not an attorney.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: All of those people have extensive training to do what they do.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: In order to really get the help that you really need, you have to have some kind of extensive training in in knowing what's what's available.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we spent years trying to navigate this, trying, you know, going down different paths and different rat holes.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And some were charlatans and some were really good, some just helped us a little bit, but didn't you know they they dropped the ball, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we dropped whatever.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was too much.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until we found we stumbled upon Guardian Adelaideum, which was the group, your group, that has all that extensive training to say, okay, here's what you need.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Here's here's how we can help.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the turning point in our lives.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I get choked up talking about that every time.
• 14:26
  Michael: I know, I get choked up when you get choked up.
• 14:28
  Michael: So let's move on.
• 14:32
  Michael: And and thank you for that.
• 14:33
  Michael: And you know, the checks in the mail, so to speak.
• 14:35
  Michael: Yeah.
• 14:36
  Michael: But but I think that you bring up a really important, really important point.
• 14:39
  Michael: And I'll tell you something that's very frustrating to me is that we have resources, we've developed programs, we've developed tools that we have sitting there waiting for people to come and take and to learn from and to educate themselves and listen to this podcast.
• 14:57
  Michael: And look at the online courses that we've developed, you know, and most of this stuff is basically free.
• 15:02
  Michael: If it's not free, it's a nominal, you know, like I think the courses are like$35 or$50 or something like that.
• 15:08
  Michael: Why do you think it is that we have so much trouble getting moms in situations like yours or dads and yours, you know, families in your situation to, I mean, everybody's raises raises their hand.
• 15:22
  Michael: They say the exactly the same thing you just did.
• 15:25
  Michael: But then when the stuff is out there and give offered, people are reticent to take it or they just aren't taking it.
• 15:33
  Michael: And I'm perplexed by it.
• 15:35
  Michael: And I could tell you anecdotally, I had lunch with a woman who's in a similar situation to yours, although her her child has much more specialized needs, autism and whatnot.
• 15:45
  Michael: And she said to me, basically, and she's you know her as well.
• 15:49
  Michael: I won't say her name, but I know you know her because I think we've talked about her.
• 15:52
  Michael: She basically said to me, She's like, Mike, when I have a down moment, when there's calm in my life, in my existence, the last thing I want to do is think about this.
• 16:04
  Michael: I want to have a glass of wine, I want to watch some stupid mindless video input on the television and not think about it.
• 16:12
  Michael: And I think that that's wonderful on the one hand, but also tragic.
• 16:17
  Michael: I don't know if that's the right word.
• 16:18
  Michael: It's kind of a powerful word, but it's it's sad on another hand, isn't it?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is so exhausting, draining to just live live this life with someone.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: You never know when the next outburst is gonna be, you never know when the police are gonna show up, when an ambulance is gonna be called, when you know, straight jackets are it's exhausting and terrifying.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do have a moment of calm, you know, yeah, maybe a superhuman would spend that time, okay.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I need to start, you know, researching how to navigate this data connecticut mental health website.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it is so overwhelming.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Life is already overwhelming without diving into that.
• 17:14
  Michael: Right.
• 17:14
  Michael: I I get it.
• 17:16
  Michael: I just also, you know, to me, that's a chicken or the egg question.
• 17:20
  Michael: If you would take the time, it's you know, it's it's the process pain that we all fear.
• 17:25
  Michael: We don't want to go through this process because it's a pain in the neck, number one.
• 17:28
  Michael: And number two, we also want the outcome pain, which is hey, maybe this won't be worth it in the long run.
• 17:32
  Michael: Why waste my time now?
• 17:33
  Michael: I'm already overwhelmed.
• 17:34
  Michael: But I also look at it and say, if you put a little time in now, it could really pay dividends for you later.
• 17:41
  Michael: I'll give you an example, and this comes from you.
• 17:43
  Michael: One of the things that you're very good at, and we're very good at from the inception of our relationship was chronicling what was going on, right?
• 17:50
  Michael: And having a timeline.
• 17:52
  Michael: I've told everybody, and we have our journal that people can get for free.
• 17:58
  Michael: It's in the show notes.
• 17:59
  Michael: Download it, take it, use it.
• 18:01
  Michael: It's free.
• 18:02
  Michael: And it just helps you keep track of what's going on in your life.
• 18:06
  Michael: It gives you the chance to be proactive with yourself, but it also gives you the chance to maintain a log of what's been going with your loved one.
• 18:14
  Michael: What medications have been tried, like you were just talking about, what hasn't been tried, what behavioral, behavioral things am I seeing that are different than what we saw a year ago, a month ago, et cetera?
• 18:25
  Michael: And I think that that's something that you were good at.
• 18:28
  Michael: And I really encourage people, if nothing else, download that journal and just keep it at your desk and at your workstation to help you to stay organized, if nothing else.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was something I I can't take credit for that because Jeff did all of that, and he was really good about, you know, every time there is a new outburst or a new wrinkle, he added to that that document.
• 18:54
  Michael: And that's how it should be.
• 18:55
  Michael: It should be a living, breathing document.
• 18:57
  Michael: Oh, yeah.
• 18:58
  Michael: Something iterative.
• 18:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:59
  Michael: But you talk about Jeff, you talk about yourself, and you talk about your younger son now who's on his way to California.
• 19:06
  Michael: Congratulations to him and his girlfriend, and and God bless him, happy, you know, good luck.
• 19:12
  Michael: One thing that really got me into this side of the work is my concern for the impact on marriage, the impact on the other children in the home, who naturally would feel resentful that, hey, Cam has to get all the attention because of his issues, his illness, which I had nothing to do with, and I'm over here winning batting titles and getting honor roll.
• 19:43
  Michael: And, you know, I'm I'm also ran.
• 19:45
  Michael: And and then that that really concerns me.
• 19:47
  Michael: And obviously, it concerns me about the marriage.
• 19:50
  Michael: You guys are lucky you had that strength to say, hey, Jeff, you need to leave corporate and you know, and he did it.
• 19:57
  Michael: God bless him for doing that.
• 19:58
  Michael: But what's that like for not only you, your marriage, but also your other son and what he had to endure and the impact that it had on, say, Jeff and him, for instance?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, very good question.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you're right, in that Jeff and I are really lucky that we're rock solid, on the same page, supportive of each other, and supportive of, you know, our family.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Curtis, our younger one, you know, he so often I remember when he was little, he would just go put himself down for a nap because we were so involved with trying to put out fires with his older brother.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so on on some level he kind of he not that he raised himself, but he did on his own things that I regret not being there for him for.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Fast forward to now, he's and and he adored, he absolutely adored his older brother growing up.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: But Cam was not really good to him all the time.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there were some pretty scary incidents.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Incidences?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Incidents, I think.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Times.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Times.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Things that happened, yes.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, particularly when they were in their teenage years.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So now, you know, Curtis is 29 and he has been seeing a therapist for years to deal with the PTSD of growing up under his brother.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he that I'm I'm not just throwing that term out.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: He actually was diagnosed with that.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: He what breaks my heart now is Curtis wants nothing to do with his older brother.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And Cam is doing so much better, beautifully, really.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he wants nothing more than to repair his relationship.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Some damage runs deep.
• 22:10
  Michael: Listen, Annette, I you know, and this is one of the seems to be a theme on this, on this podcast.
• 22:16
  Michael: And that has to be okay.
• 22:19
  Michael: It has to be okay because Curtis has that right to, you know, to to have his happiness and his peace and live his life too.
• 22:27
  Michael: And we can't relate to that damage that that he's feeling, that, and and frankly, that resentment that he probably feels, grief on some level, there's so many emotions that are tied up in it that we can't understand that he, as you said, he's got PTSD from it, and it has to be understandable.
• 22:46
  Michael: And I'm a firm believer that if you you you don't want to be around people because it's unhealthy for you to be around people, then you you have that right.
• 22:57
  Michael: And and as you say, it's sad, it's absolutely sad.
• 23:00
  Michael: But Curtis has to live a life too, and he's doing it, and you know, that's great for him.
• 23:06
  Michael: And yeah, I feel really bad about the way you the way you just put it is really heart wrenching, but it but it has To be okay.
• 23:13
  Michael: And I think that we're probably, I don't know how how much you want to get into this, but I think we might be doing a disservice by not describing Cam's the impact that the illness and everything else that had had on Cam.
• 23:30
  Michael: So the way that let me just let me just preface this by saying the way that I was introduced to Annette in this family was through a very well-known psychiatrist in the state of Connecticut, called me up and said to me that he has one of the most unique cases he's ever seen.
• 23:48
  Michael: And this man at the time probably had 40 years plus of psychiatry under his belt.
• 23:54
  Michael: And he said, I don't even know how to diagnose this young man.
• 23:59
  Michael: He described Cam as a mosaic of illnesses that that show themselves at different times and in different ways, so that not one was dominant.
• 24:12
  Michael: And then he said, When you throw substances on that, it's like throwing gasoline on a fire.
• 24:18
  Michael: And it was.
• 24:19
  Michael: There's some pretty scary things that were going on, substance related, but with the mental health issue.
• 24:26
  Michael: And and that you could tell a story or two about that.
• 24:29
  Michael: I mean, I think about the the gas mask in the kitchen, you know, that episode.
• 24:35
  Michael: I mean, it's if it wasn't so scary, it would be funny, right?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we had come down, he was still living with us.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: He we came down in the middle of the night, there was noise in the kitchen.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Came down in there.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: There he was with a gas mask on.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: He was clearly hammered.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he drank a bunch of alcohol or whatever.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And a cookie sheet with the oven was on, cookie sheet with a bunch of white powder on it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was trying to manufacture something.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what.
• 25:15
  Michael: So that was yet another 911 call where we had to, you know, all yeah, and it turns out there were highly flammable and highly potentially explosive things.
• 25:24
  Michael: You know, Cameron also, one of his things is that he he he fancies himself a scientist.
• 25:31
  Michael: He is very bright.
• 25:32
  Michael: He's a bright, bright guy, and he really fancies himself a scientist, and he's tried so hard to get into, and we're not just talking, you know, chemistry lab, you know, homemade chemistry sets.
• 25:43
  Michael: We're talking uh he wanted to do astrophysicism and and you know neuro neurospace and and that kind of thing.
• 25:50
  Michael: And and I think that sometimes his uh delusions of grandeur sometimes cause him a setback in some ways where he would try to take on more than his brain and his illness would allow him to be able to compartmentalize.
• 26:07
  Michael: And that resulted in a lot of setbacks, a lot more angst, a lot more of the outbursts that that you were describing earlier.
• 26:15
  Michael: And this is very early on when we first met, right?
• 26:19
  Michael: Yeah.
• 26:20
  Michael: Then we had hospitalizations, many, much needed hospitalizations.
• 26:27
  Michael: Yeah, and you know, getting back to the angst and the anger at the world, Cameron was very mad about all these hospitalizations.
• 26:36
  Michael: He was mad at every doctor.
• 26:38
  Michael: He hated me, you know, for the longest time because I wasn't gonna just dance around him.
• 26:44
  Michael: It was gonna be sort of I had to be the bad cop.
• 26:47
  Michael: And yeah, that was my that's my role, right?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I remember that was actually uh during the the longer hospitalizations when he was at CDH.
• 26:58
  Michael: Right, Connecticut Valley Hospital, which is one of our only mental health facilities left in our state.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I hate that place.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely it's deplorable.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Most people would, and that's understandable.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: It at that stage of the game, it was really the only option to keep him alive.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So while it was a horrible, horrible place for him to be and horrible experience for him and for us, it was at that time the only bed available where they could keep him alive.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: They kept him alive.
• 27:43
  Michael: And and frankly, looking back on it now, hindsight being 2020, as you said earlier, it saved his life.
• 27:49
  Michael: It changed his life.
• 27:51
  Michael: Yeah, I think it changed everybody's life, and and it certainly changed my outlook, him, and I and I think of him as a different kind of client, patient, and I and I and I give a lot more grace to people who are in extreme circumstances like he was, because I see what he's become now, and I definitely want to talk about I want to talk about that here in a second or two as well, because the the change is just so drastic.
• 28:22
  Michael: It really is that you know, frankly, I I didn't know what was going to come come of his case.
• 28:28
  Michael: It was one of the worst behavioral cases I'd ever seen.
• 28:33
  Michael: And his tendency to self-sabotage still remains remarkable.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Michael: And I don't think that's uncommon with and and you you're you're in the community with with our other people who have children with mental health issues.
• 28:49
  Michael: Do you see compare comparable tendencies in the stories that they tell you and vice versa?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Some.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Some.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly through this journey that we've been on, I've gotten to know many people with kids who are struggling with one kind of mental illness or another.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know that I've seen anybody um have such catastrophic, I mean, remarkable.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh like if he does it, he does it like or go home, you know.
• 29:33
  Michael: That's very true.
• 29:34
  Michael: Yeah, he's gonna fuck up in a huge way.
• 29:36
  Michael: It's not just gonna be a little one.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 29:39
  Michael: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that I mean, I I can't tell you how how about the moms?
• 29:43
  Michael: How about the moms?
• 29:44
  Michael: Is there a lot of sim there's gotta be a lot of similarity between you and the moms and and I mean you've you've referred so many people to us.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's well yeah, the moms are just trying to survive and keep their kids alive.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: A friend of ours was not, she did everything she could, and she advocated much more effectively than I ever could before we met you guys.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: She marched right into you know, all the the state agencies that theoretically offered help, but she still wasn't able to save her son.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Tragically, he died of an overdose a few years ago.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember I remember when that happened.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: The moms are are doing the best they can.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, trying to keep them alive, trying to, you know, most of them are working full-time, uh, and I don't know how they do it.
• 30:52
  Michael: No.
• 30:52
  Michael: I don't know.
• 30:53
  Michael: And one of the things, and and having you on is very special to me because I think we've developed a very special relationship over the decade plus that we've known each other.
• 31:02
  Michael: And I I just so that the listeners know, and Annette can can back this up, I really don't give an Annette a lot of rope to Sly.
• 31:13
  Michael: I call her out on her crap a lot because she's that type of right.
• 31:17
  Michael: And I deserve it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I deserve it.
• 31:20
  Michael: Well, whether you deserve it or not, I think we've developed that kind of relationship very early on where I could tell you what I really think.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:27
  Michael: And and one of the things that Annette tends to do, and this is not unique to Annette, is sort of you just made me think of it when you you were talking about how much you couldn't stand CVH and and whatnot.
• 31:39
  Michael: I mean, Annette was moving mountains to get her son out of the hospital.
• 31:46
  Michael: Meanwhile, I'm on the other side moving mountains to try to keep him in the hospital.
• 31:51
  Michael: And it was so we were like the irresistible force meets the immovable object, right?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:56
  Michael: It it and I think that that's that's a tendency that you've shown over the over the years, and and it's and we laugh about it.
• 32:05
  Michael: And it seems like every time something like that happens, I call you out on it and we laugh about it and we talk it through.
• 32:10
  Michael: But I think but it's important to notice and it's important to acknowledge, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, two things about that, Mike.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: One, you well, me, I because I grew up with the family that I grew up in, just being in survival mode, you do whatever it takes to keep the the catastrophic person happy.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my that's my survival, one of my survival skills that I learned early on.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there was an element of that when I was trying to get Cameron out of CBH because he was so miserable.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: We would get calls regular.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if he would call or take our calls, which was rare, really the only things he would have to say to us was, I hate you so effing much, I wish you were dead.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that's pretty hard for a mom and dad to hear.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or for anybody to hear.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: But the second part I wanted to say was when you guys were able to find a bed for him at Connecticut Mental Health Center, that was a turning point for him.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Those folks were able to get through to him like nobody in his past interventions had been able to.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I credit them with one of the major turning points in his life and our lives.
• 33:46
  Michael: You want you want to know what I think about that?
• 33:48
  Michael: Yeah.
• 33:49
  Michael: I think that he and that doctor that he had at Connecticut Valley Hospital were just so at loggerheads.
• 33:56
  Michael: And it could have, it was not the doctor, it could have been any doctor.
• 33:59
  Michael: It was the time, it was the angst that he was at, it was where he was in his in his journey.
• 34:06
  Michael: I think that he hated her on a level I really don't know that she really was too keen on him.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Michael: And it became very difficult to maintain that professional boundary.
• 34:18
  Michael: So I think that I think that for no matter who came in after that experience, they were gonna look like heroes.
• 34:27
  Michael: And but CMAC did a great job, but I think that that it was it was like, well, we're comparing the bottom of the barrel to the to the top, right?
• 34:36
  Michael: So I think that that that that may be a little that they they they did what they they they both both the hospitals were doing what they knew how to do.
• 34:46
  Michael: It was just the whole the mix of the personalities was just wrong.
• 34:49
  Michael: And then I I really to Cam's credit, this is where we have to give credit where credit's due.
• 34:54
  Michael: He he is, as you say, he's very smart, and he was also quite capable of saying, Well, I don't want to go back to that, so I'm gonna stay here and I'm gonna at least meet these people halfway.
• 35:06
  Michael: And he did that, and in that deck that gained trust, that gained respect, that gained responsiveness from him, from them to him, and from you all as a family.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they were able to get through to him to so he I I don't know that he ever really acknowledged that he's got some issues going on in his head.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think prior to CMHC, from his perspective, it was all a conspiracy to um make him miserable.
• 35:43
  Michael: Yeah, and it was your you were the puppet master.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:47
  Michael: Yeah, right.
• 35:48
  Michael: Yeah, and that's that's the that's the nature of the illness.
• 35:52
  Michael: That's the delusional part of the illness.
• 35:54
  Michael: And that's that's God, that's what makes it so so hard.
• 35:59
  Michael: It really, it really does.
• 36:00
  Michael: But I think it's interesting how you tie in your your coping mechanism of keeping everybody else happy, keeping the peace with your dad and with Cam.
• 36:10
  Michael: And you know, then you have to also keep the peace in in the home, and and you know, and you've done it.
• 36:17
  Michael: You and you've you've done an amazing job with it.
• 36:22
  Michael: Now, the one thing that that you have really in the last few years embraced, and this is this is a byproduct of Cameron being in a much better place, I think, but it's also a byproduct of your need.
• 36:36
  Michael: You've really embraced in your own self, your own creativity, and getting back to to that.
• 36:42
  Michael: What was what how did what allowed that transition to take place?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's easy, Mike.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was you, it was Guardian Adelaideum.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I'm not, you know, I just don't like the commercial for you, but no, I don't I don't like that.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, literally, you guys changed our lives.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I went through I mean I had a business years ago that I had for about 10 years, and it was okay, it was moderately successful.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I just couldn't I didn't have it in me to do it anymore.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was so distraught over the impact of Cameron's situation on our family.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I went through a period of about two years.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I call it my puzzle phase.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: I did jigsaw puzzles.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: I do a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle every two or three days, and that's all I was capable of doing.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Jeff was working full-time, he did all the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry, and kids to school, he did everything while I did jigsaw puzzles.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: When you guys came and were able to actually make progress, not just make progress, but put together a plan and a path that was so incredibly positive that was working for him.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was working for him.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I could that's when I got out of my puzzle phase.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh well, you know what?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't have this thousand-pound anchor around my neck.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: You guys took that off my shoulders.
• 38:43
  Michael: All right.
• 38:43
  Michael: I and thank you again.
• 38:44
  Michael: And this isn't about Guardian and what we do, but but what was it that this is gonna sound self-promoting as well, but what was it?
• 38:53
  Michael: Let's talk about what we did that helped you so much because I think people can learn to do these things.
• 38:59
  Michael: I think, I think we pulled together a team, right?
• 39:02
  Michael: We identified who was the necessary parties that bus, you know, and and we we identified those parties.
• 39:10
  Michael: First of all, we we we also told you what to expect out of out of the the state and out of the system.
• 39:16
  Michael: Again, getting back to the education piece, right?
• 39:19
  Michael: We had to talk realistically together as as a as a team, you and me and and Sarah and Angela and our and our whole crew about what we could or couldn't do, what the realistic expectations are.
• 39:31
  Michael: Then we had to say, okay, based upon those expectations and the wants and needs of the family and and Cam himself, how can we structure a team around this to try to fulfill those expectations?
• 39:43
  Michael: And that's not anything that you could just learn in a day or just do in a day.
• 39:47
  Michael: Exactly.
• 39:48
  Michael: And and and so you know, getting back to what I was saying before, I really encourage folks to slow down, take a breath, put down the put away the jigsaw puzzle for a minute and and and start thinking about what are some of those needs that we can address.
• 40:06
  Michael: And and in Connecticut, we are fortunate that that they do pay an agency like ours to to help to coordinate those pieces.
• 40:15
  Michael: But I really encourage folks that probably don't have that as a resource to think about those basic elements of what they need to bring their family to a better place, et cetera, especially their loved one struggling with mental illness, on a on a very elementary level, and and how we can facilitate that communication throughout that group.
• 40:42
  Michael: Agree, don't agree?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 40:46
  Michael: I I just for me, it was I wasn't capable of finding the resources, navigating the the web of Yeah, I you went to you shut down, and I think most moms listening right now are screaming at the radio saying, Michael, shut up, listen to her, she's telling you that we all feel like this, and I and I and I accept that.
• 41:13
  Michael: And that's that's the point.
• 41:16
  Michael: You're not alone, you're not unique.
• 41:18
  Michael: And Annette went through it.
• 41:20
  Michael: Her friends have gone through it.
• 41:21
  Michael: Every family that I've dealt with goes through that same just giving up feeling.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Giving up on on finding, I mean, every time you think that you're there's oh, you try a new therapist or there's a new med combination cocktail or or something.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's a you know, maybe there's light at the end of the tunnel, and then something happens and you're back to square one.
• 41:50
  Michael: You know, that's a huge thing, though.
• 41:52
  Michael: And I and I forget to talk about that, and that is really a huge thing.
• 41:55
  Michael: This the medication compliance is an issue, obviously, but the medic the experimentation with medication cocktails is huge.
• 42:04
  Michael: And I think patients and families get so frustrated with the with the psychotropic side of things, like, well, why the hell isn't this working?
• 42:14
  Michael: When's this gonna work?
• 42:14
  Michael: Why isn't that working?
• 42:15
  Michael: You know, we want that instant fix, we want that silver bullet.
• 42:19
  Michael: And and I'm sorry to say, but some of these meds, as you indicated before, they could take months to kick in and really show an impact.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: May or may not work.
• 42:29
  Michael: And it may or may not work, and then we got to go back to square one, right?
• 42:33
  Michael: And that's why I think it's it's vitally important.
• 42:35
  Michael: And one thing that we really struggled for a long time, if you remember, was finding Cameron's baseline.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 42:42
  Michael: Because if we know what their baseline is, we can work off of that.
• 42:46
  Michael: And that's why it was so important to have that timeline that Jeff did and that you guys contributed to, so that we understand and understood what he looked like when he was functioning at his best.
• 42:59
  Michael: Not quote unquote normal, not awesome, not you know, off the charts great.
• 43:05
  Michael: But when he was at his best, what does it look like?
• 43:08
  Michael: So that we can identify that as baseline and work from there.
• 43:12
  Michael: Because anything below that, we want to get him back to baseline.
• 43:16
  Michael: Right.
• 43:17
  Michael: You know?
• 43:18
  Michael: Yeah.
• 43:19
  Michael: So I remember, and I still have it, whether you you may be embarrassed or not, but one day Annette sent me a video she shot of herself driving, no less.
• 43:30
  Michael: I do remember.
• 43:31
  Michael: Yes, this is a uh a public safety message here.
• 43:35
  Michael: Don't text video and drive all at the same time.
• 43:39
  Michael: But anyway, the point is is that basically Annette, my friend Annette here was was in tears and she she shot a video for me, basically thanking me, like she's done umpteen times today.
• 43:52
  Michael: It's very off-putting, it's very embarrassing for me, but thank you.
• 43:56
  Michael: It's huge, it's humbling.
• 43:58
  Michael: Basically saying, Hey, I just wanted you to know that I'm on my way back from basket weaving or something like that.
• 44:04
  Michael: I don't even know what it was.
• 44:06
  Michael: And she said, This is the first time I've done this in a decade or however many years.
• 44:10
  Michael: And that, you know, crying, she's crying, I'm crying, listening to it.
• 44:13
  Michael: And she's, you know, she's thanking me for helping her to be able to do that.
• 44:20
  Michael: And one of the things I wanted to talk a lot about here at the last, you know, portion of the last few minutes of of this episode is the encouragement that I want you to to talk to people about about getting back into that creative side of yourself and what that took.
• 44:37
  Michael: And it wasn't just us, it was you.
• 44:41
  Michael: You know, you dug deep and you you needed that outlet.
• 44:44
  Michael: So what was that like?
• 44:45
  Michael: What was what was that like to know you needed, you know?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Liberating, exciting, and it's just happy.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's whereas I used to go to bed crying every night and I'd wake up crying thinking, What's the what's gonna be the Yeah, what's hitting the fans today?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now I get up.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to start working.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: I got my own little company here that we have a lot of fun with.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 45:23
  Michael: The company's called the company's called Towny Swag.
• 45:25
  Michael: Towny Swag.
• 45:26
  Michael: So if you're a towny, local, whatever your local town is, your town is famous for something.
• 45:32
  Michael: Or there's people that have been around forever and there's that have made it a special place.
• 45:37
  Michael: Annette has all kinds of stuff.
• 45:40
  Michael: I have a pillow from Towny Swag that has all the cool little things that that represent Rhode Island, you know, like Dell's Lemonade, the Rhode Island Red Rooster, you know, those kinds of things that make quahogs, lobster rolls, and things that make Rhode Island Rhode Island and make Rhode Island great.
• 45:58
  Michael: But she does it for individual towns, states, areas, and and it's real I mean, I don't know how you came across that idea because last I knew you were into a different kind of art form altogether.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, honestly, it was it started as like just this silly little COVID arts and crafts project.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we live in this small, small town in Killing in well, Connecticut.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of well, like most small towns, there's some very strong opinions, you know, on both sides of the fence.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I just started thinking about how silly it is.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I one afternoon during COVID, I jotted them all down and you know, I'm crafty, I sew, I whatever.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I figured I would print these things on some fabric, and I made a few totes out of them, you know, with the like word collages of all these silly things about our towns.
• 46:55
  Michael: They're really cool word collages, yeah.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like yellow lines.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: It that doesn't mean anything to you, but to everybody in our town, it they're they're laughing because there is this big kerfuffle over, you know, should we paint yellow lines down the middle of our roads?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes or no?
• 47:12
  Michael: And it was we're talking about a small town, folks, with no yellow lines.
• 47:16
  Michael: Yeah.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I just you know, we find all kinds of fun things like that about towns, and it it's it is really meaningful to a lot of people.
• 47:27
  Michael: Yeah, and and you could make basically any town.
• 47:31
  Michael: You just do a little research and and you can make anybody's town anywhere listening to this, listen to our voice.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, we've got um over 300 towns covered now all over, well, really all over the country, mostly in Connecticut, Massachusetts, New England, Northeast.
• 47:47
  Michael: But um but talk about what went into your mental ability, your I'm not saying your mental health, I mean your mental capacity.
• 48:00
  Michael: I'm talking about mentally, what did you have to overcome or get to in terms of being a being being a wife?
• 48:07
  Michael: You know, what what did it take?
• 48:09
  Michael: What did what finally gave you the opportunity to do it to to go back and do these cool crafty projects?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Other than COVID.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, other than COVID.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: The the biggest component was knowing that Cam was on the right path and knowing that he was getting better.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if getting better is really improving.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Improving you know, instead of getting the I hate you so fucking much phone calls, he would call just to say, hey, I just wanted to call and say I love you.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't there were months, years where I didn't think I would ever, ever hear that.
• 49:03
  Michael: I still haven't heard it from Cam, I gotta be honest.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he does love you.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: He does love you, Mike.
• 49:09
  Michael: I know, I know.
• 49:10
  Michael: And you're right, and you're emotional, and you you you you should be.
• 49:13
  Michael: I mean, it's listen, folks, Cameron is not quote unquote healed.
• 49:19
  Michael: He is not better.
• 49:21
  Michael: So I mean, no, he is better, he's not perfect, he is not, but he is, oh my gosh, he's alive, he's not angry all the time, he's not he's not vicious and and mean.
• 49:37
  Michael: He's he's improved.
• 49:39
  Michael: And I don't know, I it's a combination to me of a lot of things.
• 49:42
  Michael: It's a combination of this family that stuck with him, this family that was relentless in their pursuit of something better for him at every turn.
• 49:50
  Michael: It's a combination of the the right treaters, the right environment, the right medication.
• 49:59
  Michael: And frankly, for for my money, and and this is a lesson for everybody, I also think it's of the right time.
• 50:06
  Michael: It I think that Cameron, how old is he now?
• 50:11
  Michael: 32.
• 50:12
  Michael: He's 32.
• 50:13
  Michael: So he, you know, and you certainly see it when folks get even older.
• 50:17
  Michael: They get tired of that rat race that we were describing earlier.
• 50:21
  Michael: And I think Cameron has settled into a place that it's meaningful to him.
• 50:27
  Michael: Not Annette, not Mike McKnack, it's what's meaningful to him and a life that he can live that's meaningful to him.
• 50:35
  Michael: And as a mom, I think that's all you hope for.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know the old adage, a mother is only as happy as her least happy child.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I, you know, whether that is people think of that it was good or bad, that's really the way I'm built.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: So seeing him happy and he's content, which you know, earlier we were talking about all the angst.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see that.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't see that with him these days.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I know tomorrow is not guaranteed.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I am keenly aware that today is another day in a another good day in a very long stretch of good days.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Tomorrow's not guaranteed, but thank God for today, you know?
• 51:27
  Michael: Right.
• 51:28
  Michael: Yeah.
• 51:28
  Michael: Well, and I just actually I just recorded something for our our our midweek rap unpacking episodes we do with the podcast.
• 51:37
  Michael: And I basically said, you know, don't try to recapture anything from yesterday, don't try to steal anything from today.
• 51:44
  Michael: In other words, live in the moment, and don't try to borrow anything or or carry anything on till tomorrow.
• 51:49
  Michael: Because we got it, you you really gotta sort of stick with what you know, what you know right now, and and it's important, it's very important to do.
• 51:59
  Michael: And you know, you gotta believe, you gotta believe there's got there's gotta be hope that there's light at the end of the tunnel.
• 52:06
  Michael: And and this family, this woman that's on with me right now, folks, went through a lot of stuff, a lot of emotions, man.
• 52:14
  Michael: A lot for a lot of years.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: I will say, if we can make it, anybody can make it.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it's been that traumatic, I think.
• 52:25
  Michael: I can't say it any better.
• 52:27
  Michael: And that thanks for sharing your story and look in the description of this show.
• 52:33
  Michael: I'm going to include in that some contact info so you can check out Tony Swag and all that good stuff.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it can also, Mike, I don't know if this is kosher to say, but I am happy if anybody just wants a some another ear who's been down that road to you know talk with or to listen.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I am happy to do that, as is Jeff.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: So just putting that out there.
• 53:03
  Michael: That's what it's all about, guys.
• 53:05
  Michael: That's why we do this podcast.
• 53:06
  Michael: And that thank you so much for being here.
• 53:08
  Michael: Thanks for everything you keep doing.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Mike, thank you for all you're doing.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: You've moved mountains for us.
• 53:19
  Michael: Holding a family together through any kind of crisis, but especially through mental illness is an incredible act of devotion.
• 53:31
  Michael: And you don't have to lose yourself in that process.
• 53:36
  Michael: I mean, you're allowed to carry love for your child, and you're allowed to build a life and a purpose and an identity that belongs entirely to you.
• 53:47
  Michael: Two things can be true at the same time.
• 53:49
  Michael: Your pain does not get the final word.
• 53:52
  Michael: What you choose to construct out of it does.
• 53:56
  Michael: Reclaim that voice.
• 53:58
  Michael: Honor your creativity.
• 54:00
  Michael: Give yourself permission to step out from beneath the weight of that crisis.
• 54:06
  Michael: So a huge congratulations to Annette uh for her store and her art and her creativity and her rising like the Phoenix.
• 54:17
  Michael: Make sure to check out the show notes to get her location and give her work some support.
• 54:22
  Michael: And be sure if you you you can get get to her gallery online and check it out.
• 54:27
  Michael: Until next time, guys, keep holding it together, even if it's just kinda.