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Navigating Fertility at Work: Breaking the Silence · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a working mom with over 17 years of equipment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Jobboard and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: They'll share the secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: The boundaries and balance.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: The challenges they face and how they cover them to find the owner version of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:49
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• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring tattoo.
• 0:54
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• 0:58
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• 1:00
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• 1:05
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• 1:09
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• 1:21
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• 1:26
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• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to the show.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Month podcast.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Today I am chatting with um Callie Crow, who works in HR, um of um a larger B Corp.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: But she's also recently retrained as the coach as well.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And she does that internally within her organization.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to be talking a little bit about how she's made that pivot internally, but also about the work she does outside of her day job, um, coaching people that are going through fertility issues, baby loss and other challenging times as well, but particularly through that fertility lens.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is obviously something that I'm really, really passionate about.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, having gone through IVF myself, and I know that Callie has, but we will talk a little bit about her story in a moment.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: But Callie, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real pleasure to have you here.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me back.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's exciting.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is yeah, because I remember when we talked before, we were all of it was all about getting your pink back.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, it's about two years ago.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And now time has raced on, and we're two years on now.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what prompted the pivot then within and then a lot of people are pivoting at the moment, so I found that quite exciting.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I suppose I don't actually think of it like a pivot.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I it's a it's an addition.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've been in HR for a number of years, I'm not going to say how many, and as part of that senior HR role, I work with lots of leaders, I support people in development, lots of scripting and coaching internally, kind of as part of the day job.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what I really wanted to do was formalise um my coaching capability.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it felt like something quite natural, and I was really lucky that the organization that I work at and my boss is fantastic, so it was sort of approved quite quickly.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to do my coaching qualification alongside working and get my hours through internal coaching and external coaching.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I did that in 24, just after our last conversation, and then it's grown from there, really.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um I now am kind of officially the internal coach and we offer internal coaching to people across the business.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm um about to get my full accreditation with the coaching governing bodies.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I won't bore you with all the detail, but there's lots of paperwork and exams and stuff.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so I'm very nearly there with the hours, and I also do um a lot of coaching outside of work as well.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I fit that in in the evenings and weekends, um and sometimes before work as well.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I it just sort of has grown.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it's a real, for me, it's been a real case of I've just lent into something that I enjoy doing, yeah, and it's sort of evolved naturally.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm lucky that that sort of happened and I've been offered those opportunities and had that support.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so um I suppose it is a bit of a pivot.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: It just feels like a side addition of spring and something that may or may not grow.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely growing internally and becoming part of my role increasingly.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm really noticing that companies are having more of those conversations.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're working with multi-generation or kind of uh teams, you need much more of that coaching approach anyway.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: So when I coach managers on development, they're then also using that experience of being coached to actually overlay and start to ask some coaching questions within their teams to help them move forward and help them thrive basically.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that did did work fund it as well, your coaching?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was very lucky that they did, yes.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I were very supportive in the funding and in the time as well to do it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of quite an intensive six-month course, but then with a load of additional hours um around the edges for for the for a full year, basically.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um so yeah, and thank you also to my amazing husband who took the children many weekends and evenings so that I could get on with my coaching hours and various dissertations, etc.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's good.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that people um you know always can bash corporates and things like that and big businesses, but actually they are so good when you find a good one, you know, for supporting you, for you know, helping you pivot or you know, add extra strings to your bow or whatever.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think if they can see if they can see that there's a skill that's going to benefit you and them, and then it's sort of into a winner.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I have that experience at a number of organizations, but I'm very lucky to be, yeah, where I'm working now for B Corp as well.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we support people, and and that was just a really great example of how they did.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what sort of coaching do you do internally then?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And how does it benefit individuals and the business?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the internal coaching is more about developmental coaching, um, and that can be a range from kind of career developmental coaching that you know, I want to get promoted or I want to move in this area or I want to expand my skill set, to I've got feedback that I, you know, agree with.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I say that because sometimes if you don't agree with the feedback, then your alignment to coaching is probably not going to work so well.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've got feedback and development areas that I know I want to work on.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that could be um skills like presenting and getting more confident with running meetings and facilitation, or it might be something broader in terms of um uh a broader piece of development about how do I develop leadership skills or how am I moving to the next level or et cetera.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's it's a range really, and that's the kind of internal coaching that I do.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: We quite often um the type of coaching I do often touches on um things like values, so it's called transformative coaching.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea is that even if you focus on something quite narrow, like for example, I want to be better at facilitating workshops or sessions or meetings, um, but the way that I coach, we look at what's driving the need to do that, and then what's preventing you and what's limiting you, but what your beliefs and what your values are, and by stepping back and looking at it from a more holistic, broader approach, you hopefully learn things, and we look at practical tools and techniques as well, but learn things about why and how you're behaving in the moment, but how you could also overlay that into other areas of your life.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So quite often I'll be coaching someone on online as a facilitation, and they'll be like, Oh, penny drop moment, I do this actually in this part of my life as well.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or yes, I've always had that limitation, and that's why I do this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of transformative idea is that it can then transcend other areas of your life and hopefully move you forward and get you over something that's sticky, a sticky point, or more towards a goal that you have.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that outside of work you do coaching, and that has had much more of a focus on fertility.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I do, I am also a fertility and reproductive health coach.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I went through my qualification, it became very apparent that obviously my HR skill set leads me very much into that development piece, particularly in B Corps, because I work in a B Corp law firm and also in Purposeful Businesses and Charities, social enterprise.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: But because of my background and my fertility experience myself, um, that I'm quite well, well, I'm very well placed to coach people in that fertility space.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And really interestingly, when I've coached a number of women, particularly and a couple of men who've come to me with development and career challenges, it's very often then it's moved over into a fertility and reproductive health space as well, that actually they want to get on with their career, but they're also thinking about having a family, and then it unearths that there's some challenges there or it's taking longer, all the planning, etc.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, nothing is in a silo because we're talking about people and it's a holistic approach.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: But my a lot of my external work is, and I do some internal work on the fidelity side as well, which you can come on to, but my external coaching work really focuses on fertility coaching, helping people going through everything from reproductive health challenges, diagnosis, all the way through to going through full IVF, obviously, sometimes um loss and miscarriage comes into that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: But working through how you manage that, how you advocate for yourself, whether that's at work, coping strategies, whether it's advocating for yourself in medical appointments, how you manage waiting periods in fertility treatment, as you know, there's plenty of those, how you put boundaries in place, whether that's at work with friends or family.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it can be a whole array of different things that come up within that fertility space, which which of course come up out of the fertility space for people generally, but it's um the light is uh is is a lot light is much more firmly shone on those areas and it becomes much more emotive, obviously, when you're going through something like fertility and reproductive health challenges.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's really tough, you know.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: You were just talking, weren't we, before we hit record, and I do not it just took me right right back.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: All the things you were saying really resonated with me.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was saying to you before we hit record that it's tough being a working parent, but I still maintain that it was tougher for me working whilst navigating fertility treatment and 100%, yeah, because we spoke about and I think once you're a parent, yes, it's tough and people judge you and things like that, but you've got somebody to talk to.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like you can go in to work and you know you say, Oh my god, they will be in the right pain, or you know, this I'm doing all this at school.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a lot of people, I know I felt really ashamed, yeah, going through it lonely.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Really lonely.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't telling people, so you're carrying it feels like you're carrying a whole bag on your back every day.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and that bag is very um complex as well, because in that bag there's fear, there's worry, there's a whole emotional range of um things, but there's also this um uh this unknown as well, this uncertainty.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, like you say, there's this feeling of um not being worthy, not actually being able to perform that you know this is this should be my my ability as a woman or as a partner of someone going through it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's the how do you help that partner and how do you help yourself.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got this huge baggage that you're carrying, and like you say, very often that's um almost all completely hidden, or much of it is under the surface, and you only maybe share a little bit of of what that means.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm I'm working very much in the EDI space and and I focus very much on that kind of fertility and how that is something that we need to really recognise as a kind of diverse angle that when people are going through this, they do feel on the outside.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, I love being a parent, it's really bloody hard.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I fought very long and hard to be a parent.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I feel guilty that I don't feel grateful all the time, which yeah, we talked about before.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: But but like you say, ultimately, you can, I feel much more of the time with parenting, you can share.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's the odd thing that you feel you can't share or don't share, behavioural problems, etc.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, I again I know there's real challenges if you've got S E N children, etc., and going through those kinds of things.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: But generally, I think there is much more openness, it's much more accepted, it it transcends conversations and you can have those those conversations.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're going through fertility and reproductive health treatments, you are on the outside a lot of the time, or that's how it feels.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as that the the kind of the phrase, this only n'est-it means you feel that you are very much on your own, you can't get into those conversations with others, and you're also living in constant fear because whilst you don't want other people to have their dreams come true, you're in constant fear that someone in your team is going to announce that they're pregnant or that their partner's pregnant, or there's always someone in the office who's on maternity leave and they're coming in with their baby, and so you've constantly got this fear and living through your day-to-day life, getting into work, you'll see someone on the train or at the weekend, and it you can be triggered at any one moment, and you can't, it's very hard where you can't predict when that's going to happen, and it just compounds this feeling of isolation in a time when you're already carrying that emotional baggage that we've talked about, that in itself is really isolating.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's tough, even watching TV, you know, someone like a pregnant person comes on the TV.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what's gonna happen, and what yeah, exactly.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you're constantly on high alert and you're living in a high state of um kind of uh desire mixed with guilt for wanting it so much.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember at one point I I felt like I wished I could just turn the hormones off.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I wished I didn't want it anymore.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't stop wanting this thing because it's a biological first, and not everybody gets it, but uh and then once you're on that journey again, it's very hard to make that active decision to step off.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I work with people who are who are saying enough and I'm gonna do it, I'm going to go down a riff different route.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: We'll make my peace with this.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I also work with people who are like, I'm not giving up and I want to keep going.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, there's people that it happens relatively quickly for, um, but the that doesn't diminish actually, even if it only takes one round or if it only takes six months versus you know 10 years, that's still a period of time where they were feeling that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you can't operate at your best when you're feeling like you're missing it happens, doesn't it, at a time where a lot of people are trying to climb the career ladder when you're in your 30s, you know, must be early 40s, and there's just a lot going on.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And how do people perform at their best at work when they've got so much else they are carrying, yeah, trying to fit in?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is there some is there a you know, what advice do you give to people that are really struggling with this?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um obviously get some coaching, because that really helps me.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: But no, it isn't.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joking, I'm being crass, but it's it's about finding that support network.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things that I found when I got to um further on in my fertility um kind of phase, I don't want to say journey, I hate the word journey, but that does it's a good word for it.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I was going through fertility, I realized that I built up this network.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I had uh a counsellor for counselling support for sort of the bereavement that we'd had through the miscarriage, but I did also have um an acupuncturist, I had my consultant, I had a nutritionist, I had a very close friend who was acting as my support network.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it had taken me time sort of bumbling along to find those things.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I feel that when I work with people, particularly quite early on, or it doesn't really matter, but and we work, what do they actually need at what point and where should they spend their money and their resource and their time to build that support?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And coaching will not be there for the whole length of a fertility journey, but that that working out what support you need will really help you and recognizing that that support will change and it will flex, and there will be some people that are really supportive at some point, and then it becomes too much for them, or actually you need something else and sort of letting that go as well.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So um that is that is fundamental.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think another thing is is really trying to lean into the fact that it's okay to not feel okay.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about that quite a lot um when I'm working with people who are going through fertility treatments, and I do a lot of other work um as a fertility ambassador and with the IVFN and recognising that um when you're diagnosed with a reproductive health condition and and or have to go because not all of them mean fertility treatment, or you have to go through fertility treatment, um it is akin to being diagnosed with having cancer in terms of the um mental health impact that it has on you.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that for me, when I first heard that, I was absolutely staggered that they had the research on that and that they knew that that was the mental health impact.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yet these people, um, you know, women and their partners are shouldering that burden silently and then just carrying on, trying to carry on with work normally and pretend like nothing's nothing's wrong.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think there's some self-acceptance of like this is bloody tough and it's really hard.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not my fault, and being kind to yourself and saying, okay, well, if I can only give 80%, that's okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I do have to take a sick day, that's okay.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not pulling a sicky, I'm actually dealing with something that if this was labelled as something else, if this was another diagnosis, I would would there'd be no question about me having a sick day because I'm feeling depleted.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a piece in there as well about taking the pressure off.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I also think like don't feel obliged that you need to go to those baby showers or oh god, no, no, no.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot of the boundary work.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that you need to do?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is it you want to do?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And trying to really challenge why we feel we should do that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that is societal norms.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: We are still a society that really um there is a measure of how well you're doing by whether you have children or not, particularly as a woman.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and whether we even if if if you disagree with that, then fine, challenge on that.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still ingrained in there.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I speak to a a lot of um women that that don't have children through choice or through circumstance, who are now beyond the point that they would consider you know going through treatment or having children, and they still find that it's a question that they are asked, and there's a kind of a judgment and um something that they're having to deal with into their you know 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: So um it is a societal norm, and there is this external pressure that we have to recognise we we put on ourselves and that people put on women.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and that is something that's uh is really challenging to deal with and to um face on a daily basis, yeah, and have that as your barometer of how well I'm doing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I went to a networking meeting actually the other week and it was a group of women, and then the subject came to children, and I I never I'm very conscious that I never ever bring up bring up kids unless because I think they do.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then someone said to this lady, she goes, Oh, do you have children?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, No, and then she'd come find it, she'd had IVF and it hadn't been successful.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you think, you know, and she like I said she probably wasn't gonna consider treatment at um at that point, but you know, and you're like it it does seem to follow women, and I feel like men don't seem to ask it in the same way.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or men don't get asked it in the same way.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or don't get asked in the same way, yeah.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it just yeah, and I do find that when you go to business things and it becomes about kids, and actually I go to business things not actually wanting to talk about kids.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's not my primary reason.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them, unless it's a parent session, yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the reason for it, and so it is something that they that women still have to um manage and it can still be triggering, you know, whatever point you are.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that's that's and I think going back to the support and the support in workplaces, having having an ability to try and have an outlet at work, but that's really hard.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we were talking earlier, you know, you if you have children, you can go into work and you can find other people had a really difficult morning, they had a tantrum on the way in, etc.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really hard to be like, oh, I had a negative pregnancy test yesterday.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, um, because there's all connotations of for yourself, there's the the there's the grief every time you have to do that, there's the the longing, there's the kind of regathering yourself and looking forward and the hope going forward.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also, and we talked about this last time I was on actually, but there's that absolute raw kind of nature aspect that's like putting yourself very vulnerably on the line and saying, Well, I'm actually trying for something that's really intrinsically biological.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and whether that's you know, whether you're trying with your partner or whether you're going through fertility treatment, you know, sort of it feels like you're laying yourself bare.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're actively having sex and we're trying at the moment and it's not working.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, you do feel like you're stripping yourself naked in front of your boss or other people at work saying that in a way that you don't have to when you're talking about other things, which is why I think it's still not a taboo subject, but it's still a subject which is shrouded in the secrecy and difficulty.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's complex.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard, and I think it stalls your career before you've had kids because you're thinking, maybe I'm gonna get pregnant this month, so I can't do that work trip in eight months' time, you know, put my hand up for that promotion, or I can't switch companies even though I don't like my job because I'm not gonna be eligible for enhance maternity or whatever it is.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like you put things on hold before actually you need to.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a phrase fertility time that I come across time and time again on Instagram, and that's that place that you're at where when you're trying to conceive, you're constantly counting.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is when I had my last period, this is when my last cycle started.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if it's two months from then three months, that would be nine months back.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and it absolutely dominates.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And even then, you know, I can't book a holiday, let alone consider you know, changing jobs because I'm in a really toxic environment that doesn't support me.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because how can I put my energy and time into looking for a new job when I'm going through a treatment?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But also, if it were to be successful, which I hope it will be, like you say, I won't get the maternity pay or the support, or I'll join and then go again, or or I move somewhere, and um I'm still going through treatment and I won't be able to bring my energy and perform at my best.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it is really career stalling.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that this time piece is that time is so um becomes uh something that you're constantly looking at because your your cycles work in however many days it's a month, and then another thing is a month wait, and then as you know, what whatever treatment you're on, that could be a long or a short cycle, so it could be 28 days, it could be longer.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the same time, time goes so slowly because you are just waiting and waiting and hoping that each day is bringing you nearer to the thing that you really want, which is a baby in your arms, but you don't know when that's going to be.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you're working towards a goal where you can't even see, see the kind of the end result or the light at the end of the tunnel.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a goal as well.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're talking quite negatively, so we'll have to come on to some solutions shortly.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a goal as well that you feel that you have no like a say on the outcome.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, with work, you can say, Well, I'm gonna have achieved this by X, these are all the milestones I can work back from, and therefore I know if I do this, I do this, I do this, I will definitely achieve it.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: But with this, because there's a goal, you've no idea the day and you've no idea how you can control the outcome.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: But this is where when we're working with people and talking about fertility, that to try and move that into a more positive place and try and have some control over that.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: There are a number of different techniques and things that you can do.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, one of them I say is reframing that goal.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is your kind of end goal.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: But what are the goals and the milests between that?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's giving yourself permission to be, okay, I'm going to be in this state at the moment.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I say to people, if you were doing a master's and that was going to take you the next two years, and hopefully your treatment won't take that long, don't freak out.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you would say, This is my ultimate goal and this is my focus, and that means that other things will have to fall by the wayside because I'm paying for this very expensive master's and this is going to be the outcome.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that means you you would miss social events, you wouldn't book some extortion at holiday, you wouldn't do X, Y, and Z.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that reframing, it doesn't work for everyone, but it does work for a lot of people that accepting that it's okay to have this goal, it's okay to have this goal that feels like something I wouldn't share like a master's.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if I think of it in that same way and reframe it, that helps some people.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think putting milestones in around, okay, I'm going to do this, and then I will allow myself a break.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're going through fertility treatment, it can be all-consuming.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you can still do things, you can still go on nice weekends away, you can still go for a spa treatment.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you might be like, I don't want to have the sauna and I can't have the steam.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my husband or my partner can't do that as well because it'll affect sperm quality, but there are things that you can do, and I think that it is, and it's very easy to say it through the other side of it, but it's looking for the smaller things, so the enjoyment in the things that you do have, and spinding a lot more time in nature helps a lot of the people that I work with, and I know that helped me a lot.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's there's lots of things, as well as building that support network and just and just sort of changing slowly um your perspective.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's many things that you can do to make yourself feel more in control of a situation that is does feel quite awe-consuming and can feel completely out of control.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you spoke about how you signpost people or help people think about what support they need at what time.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um from my experience, there we felt like there was quite a lot of organizations that sort of take advantage of people when they're at their most vulnerable.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, how what advice would you give to people really that are trying to navigate, maybe choose a clinic, maybe thinking about you know, acupuncture, all these different things and all the costs add up.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we've all heard about those cowboy clinics as well, where they're suggesting things that you don't always need.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: How you know, how do you protect yourself as well from being taken advantage of?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's really hard when you're in a really vulnerable place.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so um there is in in the coaching and when I'm just talking to people, it's sort of very much getting in in line with what is it that you need right now?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is the what is the one thing that's going to actually move you forward?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And actually that gut feel as well, because when you're launched into that medical world of this, and and and basically you when you're going through IVF or fertility treatments, you become a kind of medical expert, don't you?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: In this whole world that you didn't realize really existed and you didn't really want to become a medical expert in.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really trying to navigate that, but you forget in that moment your intrinsic gut feeling.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you're speaking to someone who you feel is quite dismissive, you feel is not listening to you, is not explaining, then go with your gut feel.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is your time, your energy, it might be your money if you're paying for it as well.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes on the NHS you don't have the choice.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you do have to sort of go with it.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I recognise that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if you do have the choice, you can challenge it.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of that is about how do you advocate for yourself?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you can't, because you're feeling too vulnerable, how can someone else, i.e., a partner, and that's their role, how can they advocate for you so you can say, okay, why are you putting me on this treatment plan?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why that drug and not another drug?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything more that we can be doing?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And really kind of helping people to assert themselves so that they feel that they have control in those moments and that they can, they can in that way um not get taken for a ride and not just get swept up in this, oh yeah, this is what we do, we're putting you on this protocol and that's what we find.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and really asking those tough questions.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that I have to be really clear on is that there's the difference between coaching and counselling.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, whilst you're in a vulnerable state, when we're coaching someone who, of course, is really vulnerable and being really affected by this, we are always talking about um, what more can you do?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you, where is your control, how are you feeling, um, and what more support do you need?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Where people tip over and they are really, really not able to even um get into that place.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we all have moments we're like, I don't know.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and we work through it, but if it's a real case, if they're really struggling, um, we recognize this lines and we'll have that honest conversation and say, actually, is coaching what you need right now, or do you need some combination of coaching and counselling?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because counseling can really help with working through past trauma, working through, you know, if you've had a miscarriage, there's a chance that you'd have PTSD.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so working through those things, and those two things go hand in hand very often.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I will sometimes suggest a pause on coaching, and that's the ethical thing to do.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Find some counselling to help support you, and then come back to coaching for the forward-looking and the advocating for yourself.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or I work with people where they're they're doing the two things alongside each other.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and again, like I said, before permission.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you start something, you start doing.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was taking Chinese herbs and doing acupuncture and light therapy.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd have done anything.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Someone said you have to stand up your head for you know 10 minutes and I would have to do that.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was doing all of that, and it became so exhausting doing all of this and challenging.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish someone had called it sooner.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was a friend of mine that said, Do you think the Chinese herbs are helping?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't know.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Well, do you enjoy taking them?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, No.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, Do they feel?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, No, I I, you know, what would it be like?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she was sort of coaching me, what would it be like to stop?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, so yeah, I can let that go.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've tried it for a few months, it's not for me.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably not going to mean I don't have a child ever if I don't take the Chinese herbs, but it's going to save me time and money and hassle.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, we were going away, and I was having to get a letter to get through security because I was carrying all these packets of Chinese herbs.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, Is this helping or is this causing more stress?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where we can play that role of looking at this from another angle and and really asking kind of that inner person, is this helpful?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is this what you want to do?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no right or wrong answer, but you do know intrinsically when you're given that space to sit with it, and that's what coaching does.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you are supporting somebody or if you become aware that somebody is going through fertility treatment, how do you support them in the most effective way?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a great question.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the the best thing is to listen.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, even though I've had fertility experience, I haven't been through what they're going through.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I might have some knowledge, which sometimes is helpful, but actually sometimes it means that I have an expectation that I I'll kind of know and I have to pull that back and be like, actually, I don't know their story.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say to people that that have no experience and don't know anything about fertility, don't be scared.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: That person, if they've shared that with you, that's fantastic.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: They've seen that you're a safe space and they've said, I'm having to go through some fertility treatment.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Always start with, thank you very much for sharing that with me.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then ask questions, you know, uh what do you want to tell me about it?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if it's just that I just wanted to tell you that to make me aware, you know, is there any more that you want to tell me, or can you tell me more about it?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or we can have this conversation another time, and then just really listen, really listen.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they're asking.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often, people, when they share things, they're doing it because they want to be heard, they want to be listened to, they want to feel validated.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they might need some support.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what is it that you think you need?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't know, okay, well, do you mind if we talk through some options?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if it's a if it's in a work situation, is that you need more flexibility?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but I don't know what that's going to look like until I start treatment.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, well, let's take it on a week-by-week basis when you do know.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to set out this massive long plan for the next six months.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can take it much more slowly and let that person set the pace.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, don't jump in.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard not to don't jump in with, oh, that's great, that's exciting.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think we always want to fix it.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: That person might not be feeling excited by the fact that they're starting fertility treatment.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Probably mixed emotions.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um we're really British and we find it hard to ask this question, but oh, you know, how do you feel about starting that?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're happy to share, um, you know, or um, you know, if you're if if it's okay, can you talk me through what that looks like, high level, or as much detail as you want, give them permission and be there for them.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really what you can do.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can say, I'm afraid I don't know anything about this space, but I'm really keen to learn and learn with you.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, tell me more about it.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you have got lived a perfect experience, that's that's helpful.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: But let them speak again.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't actually want to hear about all of yours until maybe it is reassuring.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when people kind of disclose and they obviously know because it's quite vocal about it, I'm still not going to jump in there with this was my experience, etc.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: They talk and I say, well no, I do have some understanding of what you're talking about.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: My situation was different, but I did have IVF and I did have to go through this.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: But but tell me more about where you're at at the moment and what your thinking is and what you're struggling with most about this situation.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all kind of quite open questions.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would you like employers to do?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it would be fantastic if they signed the fertility pledge, which we have.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: What's the fertility pledge?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Fertility pledge is to pledge that you will uh do four things.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna forget all four things now, but that you will have an internal fertility ambestor, you'll have exclusively signposted policies, and by exclusive, that's not their wording, that's mine.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have come across fertility policies, baby loss policies that are hidden within maternity policies or family policies, which is obviously really difficult for all people involved because nobody wants to be reading the wrong thing at the wrong time.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: So really signposting clear fertility, reproductive health policies that are fully inclusive so that they are being mindful of partners of people going through it and recognising that fertility comes in many shapes and sizes, so it could be surrogacy or donor eggs or donor sperm, it can affect in different ways.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So making sure that you've that's why I say the word exclusive, that they're really clearly signposted and you've got those policies.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, making sure that you've got training, so training for managers.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So when we do inclusive leadership training, um, we make sure that when we're looking at kind of um practical situations, that we talk about what if someone comes to you and discloses something that's quite personal, how would you manage that from an inclusive leadership point of view?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the examples that we use are that this could be divorce, it could be fertility, it could be bereavement, it could be mental health.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: So including it within the kind of day-to-day examples of what people might be dealing with.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because one in four people will be have will have fertility treatment to have a one or four babies in the UK will have treatment.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a staggering a number of people.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um one in three women will have a miscarriage, or if a third pregnancy will be a miscarriage, I get the data the wrong way around.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it is happening to people.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is something that can't be ignored.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So just making it something that is more accessible, not ramming it down people's throats, but but including it in your training is really important.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the fourth thing, uh, which I now can't remember, oh, is awareness, general awareness.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So all of those things that I've said, um just making sure that it's part of this kind of inclusion, that you don't forget that this is there along with everything else and that people are dealing with it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the fertility pledge can be signed by any organization and it's really pushing to change the rights for people who are going through reproductive health and fertility challenges in the workplace by workplaces pledging to have to do those four things which are actually really simple.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've got an EDI strategy, if you're a people-focused business, if you're just trying to be a better employer, they're really easy to implement and they can make a massive difference.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: If it only changes the experience of one person, then you've changed the experience from that one person.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've changed the world, haven't you?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I mean, if you're taking it from a purely commercial point of view, they are much more likely to be retained.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: If they're a strong performer, they are much more likely to come back when they've gone through treatment, if they have a baby, if they don't, wherever when they're moved to a different place in their life, they were much more likely to stay and they will continue to perform well if they have that support and feel that that's an environment that they can work in.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: What about society?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously we talked about this going out, it now it, you know, conversation falls often to kids.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what you know, and I think it's all about awareness, isn't it?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: But what would you like to see like society's attitude and how do you think it will help people from feeling that only?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's a challenge one.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, right, you're saying if I had a magic wand, what would I change?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I would probably stretch it beyond kind of fertility treatment just for people to be much kinder.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is very simple, isn't it?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just much more awareness that you have no idea what baggage anyone around you is carrying.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, I'm gonna use a real London analogy, so apologies for those listening outside of London, but you know, when you're on the tube, you're you're packed in there with so many people, especially the line.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I'll just take a moment and look around and like you have no idea what any one of these people is going through, what they're dealing with, if it's diagnosis, if it's ill family members, if it's stress at work, if it's bullying, if it's etc, etc.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: So just really having that mindset of I might be having a bad day, but someone else might be having an equally bad day or worse.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or I might be having a good day, and like just that would that would make it's a much nicer place.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, if I'm waving my magic wand.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: From a fertility perspective, I think it would be the awareness and just um more mindful of the language that we use.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um of course you celebrate, you've got to celebrate, and I don't think anyone going through fertility, you might have moments where you feel angry towards people celebrating they're having a baby and it's hard for you.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: But but but honestly, when I was going through my treatment, I didn't not want them to have it, I just wanted it as well.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's not about not celebrating it because life is too short not to celebrate these moments, but but having a mindfulness to that there might be someone in my close circle that actually will find this quite hard or that might be affected by this.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: So giving that lead way.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if they can't come to your baby shower, if they're not seemingly overly excited on the WhatsApp group, that oh, congratulations, they've gone silent for a couple of days.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because they're not happy for you, it might be because they just have to regroup and breathe and think, okay, yeah, here we go again.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm dealing, I'm dealing with the the layering of the grief that it's not me this month and when will my time be?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so yeah.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, this has been such a powerful conversation.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: How can people connect with you if they you know want to know more, if they want to know more things for themselves or for somebody else about coaching?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um my website, Cali Crow Coaching.com, Cali K-A-L-I, Crow C R O W.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they can also find me on Instagram at Cali Crow Coaching.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also on LinkedIn, Cali Crow.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'm also on the IVFN advisory board as well.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if they check out the IVFN, which has loads of resources.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what is the IVFN?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: People don't know.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, the IVFN is a benefits platform essentially, but that sounds like it downplays it.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: They are um, I mean, I would say this I'm on the board, but they are an absolutely fantastic place for people who are going through all sorts of reproductive health fertility treatment and also perimenopause, which we're not touching on today, but I mean that's a whole other world.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they provide you with a directory so you can actually look at where you can go and start to do research on what clinics you could go to.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: They have an ask the expert session about different topics, they have a wealth of information.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can become a member yourself, but another great thing that organizations can do is sign up for membership so that then they can offer it as a benefit to their employees to get on there as well.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it's really great.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really great place.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: It also has a community on there as well.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, to our point earlier, that connecting with other people that are going through similar to you, especially when you're in a point of place in time where it's really hard and you don't want to share in it's very hard.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going through a fertility treatment and trying to find someone in the office or in your friendship group that's also going through it, you know that people in that safe space that's monitored are going through that.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you can get support and advice from them.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Nice, lovely.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll put all the links in the show notes.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Callie, for joining us today.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.