Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #831 Spoilt for Choice

Transcript

#831 Spoilt for Choice · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.
0:07
Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just once answers.
0:10
Speaker 3: Now, the culture matters so much, the fit in the
0:12
Speaker 3: philosophy matters so much. And if we're only looking at
0:15
Speaker 3: results to the exclusion of other things that matter much more,
0:19
Speaker 3: I think we may potentially be making mistakes with the
0:22
Speaker 3: school choices that we're making.
0:23
Speaker 1: For our kids.
0:24
Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
0:27
Speaker 2: and Dad.
0:28
Speaker 3: At this time of the year, a lot of people
0:30
Speaker 3: start thinking about next year. Some people are moving kids
0:33
Speaker 3: heading to new schools quite often, and whether your child
0:37
Speaker 3: is moving into high school or just going to a
0:39
Speaker 3: new school. I mean so my parents used to before
0:41
Speaker 3: they retired, own a furniture removal business, and more people
0:44
Speaker 3: move across the Christmas New Year period than at any
0:47
Speaker 3: other time of the year. It's their boom time. That's
0:49
Speaker 3: when business just went crazy. School teachers, police officers, or
0:53
Speaker 3: the government moves. They all happen at the end of
0:55
Speaker 3: the year, ready for a new year. And we're only
0:57
Speaker 3: I can't believe I'm saying this like it's the end
0:59
Speaker 3: of August. Right, We're only about three months away from
1:01
Speaker 3: people having to make the decisions about what's going to happen,
1:04
Speaker 3: and of course whether you're moving or not.
1:06
Speaker 1: Sometimes kids just move up to a new school.
1:07
Speaker 3: Today, I listener question about the very topic of what
1:11
Speaker 3: school do I send my kids to?
1:13
Speaker 2: Kate asks, is it preferable to send my daughter ten
1:16
Speaker 2: years old, currently in grade five to the high school
1:19
Speaker 2: that a few of her close friends will attend, or
1:22
Speaker 2: a better in inverted Commas school out of our area
1:25
Speaker 2: where she'll likely not know anyone or many kids just
1:29
Speaker 2: looking into high schools this year and unsure which way
1:31
Speaker 2: to go? Do we involve her in the choice with
1:33
Speaker 2: the tours, etc. Thanks.
1:35
Speaker 3: I love questions like this one because I have got
1:38
Speaker 3: a formula.
1:39
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of experience with this, a lot
1:41
Speaker 1: of experience.
1:41
Speaker 3: So I'm going to go through the formula in thirty
1:43
Speaker 3: seconds or less, and then we'll talk about why we
1:46
Speaker 3: have landed where we've landed on this issue. Most people,
1:49
Speaker 3: most parents prefer to send their kids to the schools if,
1:53
Speaker 3: first of all, great privilege if you get to choose
1:55
Speaker 3: the school. Okay, that's a wonderful privilege to have if
1:58
Speaker 3: you can do that. But most parents seem to prefer
2:01
Speaker 3: if they're sending their child to a school to look
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Speaker 3: at results, reputation, and resources. You go for the tour
2:07
Speaker 3: of the school. It's got all the bright, shiny classrooms,
2:09
Speaker 3: it's got all the fandangle technology, it's got beautiful green lawns.
2:12
Speaker 3: And you say, ooh, I like this one. And then
2:14
Speaker 3: you go to the next school and they don't have that,
2:17
Speaker 3: and you think, I know which school my kids need
2:20
Speaker 3: to go to. I've got to give them every opportunity
2:21
Speaker 3: in life. So we look at those three r's, results, resources,
2:25
Speaker 3: and reputation. There are three other words that I think
2:29
Speaker 3: might be more useful in making the decision, and they
2:31
Speaker 3: are fun, friends and fit or philosophy with an F
2:39
Speaker 3: instead of a pH. Now, fun friends and fit or philosophy,
2:43
Speaker 3: and we can talk about what all of that means.
2:45
Speaker 3: But that's the direction that I'm going to encourage Kate
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Speaker 3: and anyone who's making school decisions for next year into.
2:51
Speaker 3: I'm going to encourage moving away from results, reputation, and
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Speaker 3: resources unless you've got a really, really, really strong reason
3:00
Speaker 3: for it. I think fun, friends, and fit are going
3:02
Speaker 3: to be much more important.
3:04
Speaker 2: I know when our kids were younger and we moved
3:06
Speaker 2: to Wollongong. We moved in the middle of the Christmas break, yes,
3:11
Speaker 2: and like everyone else, no one's open. So we were
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Speaker 2: driving around and having a look at schools pretty much
3:18
Speaker 2: from the front gate, trying to make a decision about
3:22
Speaker 2: what school we thought we wanted our kids to go to.
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Speaker 3: And we were asking people, what do you know about
3:27
Speaker 3: this school, what do you know about that school? What's
3:28
Speaker 3: the reputation of the school? In other words, we were
3:31
Speaker 3: looking at well, we didn't look too closely at what
3:33
Speaker 3: was online, because back then the my school website wasn't
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Speaker 3: what it is today, and I still wouldn't encourage that
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Speaker 3: at all. But we were looking at resources and reputation
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Speaker 3: totally superficial and based on what other people said or
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Speaker 3: what we could see.
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Speaker 2: And I'm going to suggest that resources are a really
3:48
Speaker 2: important part of the decision process, and so is reputation.
3:52
Speaker 3: I mean, if you've got a school down the road
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Speaker 3: that has a reputation for lockdowns and knife attacks and
4:00
Speaker 3: terrible culture, then of course it makes sense that you
4:03
Speaker 3: would look elsewhere.
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Speaker 1: That does make sense.
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Speaker 3: However, I still don't think that you can dismiss it
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Speaker 3: out of hand based on fun, friends and fit. Now
4:11
Speaker 3: it sounds like fit and philosophy could be a problem
4:13
Speaker 3: with a school like that, and they do exist unfortunately,
4:16
Speaker 3: but fun and friends matter a tremendous amount. So in
4:19
Speaker 3: the end we've moved our children. We have six children,
4:22
Speaker 3: and when we were in Wollongong there was a little
4:24
Speaker 3: bit of movement, but we got some pretty good stability
4:27
Speaker 3: when we moved to Brisbane Kylie. Across a five year period,
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Speaker 3: our children attended four schools. We went with reputation for
4:36
Speaker 3: our first choice based on what we'd done in Wollongong.
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Speaker 3: That was a bad move.
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Speaker 1: It did not work. Then we went with.
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Speaker 3: Resources, results and reputation, went to the posh school down
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Speaker 3: the road, which almost crippled us, like we could not
4:48
Speaker 3: afford it. It was so expensive, but we did our
4:50
Speaker 3: best and after two years and so much money, we
4:54
Speaker 3: realized the kids aren't even thriving here. What are we
4:56
Speaker 3: putting ourselves through the financial distress for. So then we
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Speaker 3: went for the ind let's go with the philosophical approach.
5:02
Speaker 3: Here we thought we were doing the right thing. It
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Speaker 3: was a disaster and in the end the kids went
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Speaker 3: to the local public school down the road. We went
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Speaker 3: through five years of hell and the local public school
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Speaker 3: ended up being the best one for almost everyone of
5:13
Speaker 3: our children. There was one that it wasn't quite right for,
5:16
Speaker 3: but the rest of them that was the right choice.
5:18
Speaker 2: So I know that you're really pushing us towards this fun,
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Speaker 2: friends and fit. Yea philosophy of school choice, yes, But
5:27
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, results, resources, and reputation
5:32
Speaker 2: are important. I mean we've already actually alluded to that.
5:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me talk a bit about each of those.
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Speaker 3: So when it comes to results, it's true that some
5:40
Speaker 3: schools are simply known for academic excellence, or some schools
5:44
Speaker 3: are known for their sporting excellence or their performing arts excellence.
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Speaker 3: In fact, in many states, they have schools that are
5:50
Speaker 3: specifically designed for that. There are centers of excellence selective schools.
5:55
Speaker 3: Each state has a different name for these schools. And
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Speaker 3: if you have a child who is really oriented in
6:01
Speaker 3: a certain direction, you'll note that these ideas are not
6:04
Speaker 3: mutually exclusive. Like, you can have your fun, your friends,
6:07
Speaker 3: and your fit at a school with a great reputation,
6:09
Speaker 3: with wonderful resources, and with tremendous results. So if you've
6:13
Speaker 3: got a really sporty kid and there is a school
6:16
Speaker 3: that's viable for you to send them to that's not
6:18
Speaker 3: the one down the road. But when they get there,
6:20
Speaker 3: even if they don't know anybody, it's such a good fit.
6:23
Speaker 3: They're a sporty kid, they've been the captain of everything,
6:25
Speaker 3: they know how to do it all. And they go
6:27
Speaker 3: to that school, chances are they are going to fit
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Speaker 3: in really well. They're going to make fantastic friends, They're
6:31
Speaker 3: going to have an absolute ball. It's going to be
6:33
Speaker 3: so much fun because the reputation and the results of
6:36
Speaker 3: the school indicate that that's where you do want to go.
6:39
Speaker 3: So it's not like these lists are mutually exclusive, but
6:43
Speaker 3: I do want to talk about it sometimes, Like if
6:45
Speaker 3: you look at my school website and you're trying to
6:47
Speaker 3: understand the academic results, you're just looking at results. The
6:50
Speaker 3: results alone tell you nothing about the culture. Yeah, they
6:54
Speaker 3: and this is the challenge.
6:55
Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 3: You might think that this is going to be a
6:57
Speaker 3: great school because they've got the academic results, or the
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Speaker 3: kids end up at night at the National Institute of
7:01
Speaker 3: Drama and Art or whatever it's called, and that's what
7:03
Speaker 3: your child is great at, and then they get to
7:06
Speaker 3: the school and everyone's horrible, or the care factor of
7:10
Speaker 3: the teachers doesn't exist if your child is not a
7:12
Speaker 3: top performer. I want to be sensitive because I don't
7:16
Speaker 3: think that this stuff happens intentionally. But the culture matters
7:20
Speaker 3: so much, the fit in the philosophy matters so much.
7:22
Speaker 3: And if we're only looking at results, if we're looking
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Speaker 3: at the resources and the bright, shiny new buildings, and
7:29
Speaker 3: add to the exclusion of other things that matter much more,
7:32
Speaker 3: I think we may potentially be making mistakes with the
7:36
Speaker 3: school choices that we're making.
7:37
Speaker 1: For our kids.
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Speaker 2: At one of the schools that our children were out,
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Speaker 2: just after Naplan had really started to kind of take
7:46
Speaker 2: hold in our communities, I was friends with one of
7:49
Speaker 2: the mums at school, and she actually received a phone
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Speaker 2: call from the school to say, Naplan tests are happening
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Speaker 2: on Friday. We'd prefer it if your son doesn't come. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 2: you know, results kind of tell us only part of
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Speaker 2: the story and that idea of what the culture is.
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Speaker 2: If results at any cost is part of a school's culture,
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Speaker 2: then I'd really be questioning if that's where I want
8:15
Speaker 2: my child to be. I think about so often people
8:19
Speaker 2: will say, your mum and dad have done such a
8:21
Speaker 2: great job of raising you and as an adult. While
8:25
Speaker 2: I recognize the immense efforts that my parents have gone
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Speaker 2: to to give me a beautiful start to life and
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Speaker 2: to teach me great values, I sometimes feel like it
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Speaker 2: kind of takes away from the effort that I've individually
8:43
Speaker 2: put in to become the person I am today. And
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Speaker 2: I wonder even when you look at the results when
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Speaker 2: a school says, you know, we had fifteen kids with
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Speaker 2: OP ones, how much of that as a result of
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Speaker 2: the school and how much of that is the result
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Speaker 2: of the kids and their hard work.
9:01
Speaker 3: So I've got to jump in twenty seventeen called and
9:03
Speaker 3: they want their year twelve results back. Now we have
9:06
Speaker 3: an etr noine VP, but also for people who are
9:09
Speaker 3: not in Queensland and op was kind of like your
9:11
Speaker 3: year twelve results. Okay, so that's just a little bit
9:13
Speaker 3: of an idiosyncratic Kylie thing, But you're right this idea
9:17
Speaker 3: that some kids just they really really do work hard. Nevertheless,
9:21
Speaker 3: you will generally see a pattern of results over time.
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Speaker 3: In most schools, there'll be a school down the road
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Speaker 3: that is constantly excelling and a school up the road
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Speaker 3: that is constantly middle of the road. As parents, we
9:34
Speaker 3: do the very best that we can for our kids.
9:36
Speaker 3: But I really just want to emphasize if you put
9:38
Speaker 3: your kids where their friends are, they're going to enjoy
9:42
Speaker 3: being at school more. And if they enjoy being at
9:44
Speaker 3: school more, they're probably going to do way better. They're
9:47
Speaker 3: going to learn more, They're going to be more involved,
9:49
Speaker 3: more engaged in the school community, feel like they belong.
9:51
Speaker 3: And Kelly an Allen, a researcher out of Victoria, has
9:55
Speaker 3: done a whole lot of research showing that school belonging
9:58
Speaker 3: is a tremendously important p of how well our kids
10:01
Speaker 3: actually do and how happy they are they're well being,
10:04
Speaker 3: So I stand by it. Fun, friends, and fit or
10:08
Speaker 3: philosophy are absolutely absolutely crucial, but they are not mutually exclusive.
10:13
Speaker 3: You can get results, reputation, and resources at schools where
10:16
Speaker 3: your children have fun, make friends, and feel like they fit.
10:20
Speaker 3: It's just that I would preference the f's over the RS.
10:24
Speaker 2: So caves acknowledge she's got a couple of years to
10:26
Speaker 2: make a decision, but she wants to know whether or
10:29
Speaker 2: not involving her daughter in that decision process is preferable.
10:35
Speaker 3: I'm actually curious to know what you think. I don't
10:37
Speaker 3: know of any really strong research that's going to give
10:39
Speaker 3: us a clear yes or no here.
10:41
Speaker 1: I think that it depends, and I'd love.
10:44
Speaker 3: To get your take on it, because sometimes giving a
10:47
Speaker 3: kids choice just confuses them and it makes them feel
10:51
Speaker 3: a whole lot of pressure, Or they don't want to
10:53
Speaker 3: choose the school that they really want because they know
10:55
Speaker 3: it's going to create financial hardship for us if we've
10:57
Speaker 3: got to pay for it, or they just don't like
11:00
Speaker 3: their kids.
11:01
Speaker 1: They're eleven year olds.
11:02
Speaker 3: They don't have the information that they need to make
11:04
Speaker 3: the choice. But by the same token, we know that
11:07
Speaker 3: kids tend to do better when they've got a level
11:09
Speaker 3: of volition, choice and autonomy.
11:12
Speaker 1: We've been through a lot of school change over the years.
11:14
Speaker 1: What do you think do you think the kids should
11:16
Speaker 1: have a voice.
11:18
Speaker 2: In the early years of parenting, especially because there were
11:21
Speaker 2: six of them, the idea that they would go anywhere
11:26
Speaker 2: but the one school together didn't even enter my mind.
11:31
Speaker 2: It was a no brainer, you all go to school.
11:34
Speaker 2: When I was at school, I didn't have a choice.
11:36
Speaker 2: I just went to the local primary school. I walked there,
11:39
Speaker 2: I caught a bus, and.
11:41
Speaker 1: Then I went to the local high school.
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Speaker 3: The local high school, like many of our listeners are
11:46
Speaker 3: in exactly that boat, so this won't be relevant to them, And.
11:48
Speaker 2: So for me, the thought that my children would actually
11:51
Speaker 2: get a choice was so foreign and.
11:55
Speaker 1: A part fro those just convenience.
11:56
Speaker 3: Send them all the same school, you can hand down
11:58
Speaker 3: the uniforms. Everyone's doing the same thing on the same day.
12:01
Speaker 1: Just makes sense.
12:02
Speaker 2: But it wasn't until our second daughter found herself in
12:05
Speaker 2: grade seven. We did a move, a big move for them,
12:09
Speaker 2: and it started off with our eldest. She went across
12:12
Speaker 2: and we looked at ourselves and kind of went, what
12:14
Speaker 2: are we doing If she's going to be here, we
12:17
Speaker 2: really have to make this available to everyone because it
12:19
Speaker 2: was a great school and it was a really.
12:20
Speaker 1: Good fit for her.
12:22
Speaker 2: Our daughter, who was going into high school, she was
12:25
Speaker 2: not convinced that this was the right place for her
12:27
Speaker 2: to go, but we decided.
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Speaker 1: We decided we're going to keep the family together.
12:31
Speaker 2: That's right, and this is going to be the best
12:33
Speaker 2: decision for you. It took us about three terms before
12:37
Speaker 2: we realized that she was literally drowning.
12:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, not thriving in the slightest It was a disaster.
12:43
Speaker 2: And the teachers were acknowledging that as well, and so
12:46
Speaker 2: as much as we had said to her, let's just
12:48
Speaker 2: give it a year, because.
12:49
Speaker 3: It was a great give a beautiful results, great resources,
12:51
Speaker 3: and a wonderful reputation. Was it was Cedars in Wollongong.
12:54
Speaker 3: For our Wollongong listeners, we love Cedars. We still talk
12:57
Speaker 3: so highly of the school, and it was.
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Speaker 2: A great community, beautiful community of our family loved it.
13:02
Speaker 2: And so the plan was that she would see the
13:05
Speaker 2: whole year out. But we realized very quickly just how
13:10
Speaker 2: damaging that was to her, yep, and so we talked
13:12
Speaker 2: to her about it. She said, I just want to
13:13
Speaker 2: be where all my friends are.
13:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, fun and friends, and the.
13:18
Speaker 2: Idea of sending her to the local high school who
13:20
Speaker 2: did not have a good reputation.
13:22
Speaker 1: That was Victory High. Again.
13:24
Speaker 3: I'm happy to say that the resources, the results in
13:26
Speaker 3: the reputation were nothing like where she'd been at Cedars.
13:28
Speaker 2: They'd been in the newspaper a number of times throughout
13:31
Speaker 2: the few years we've been there for.
13:32
Speaker 1: Reasons that you don't want to be in the newspaper.
13:34
Speaker 2: And we were really really nervous. You're really nervous, and
13:38
Speaker 2: yet giving her that choice, she flourished. Shit, she absolutely flourished.
13:45
Speaker 3: Which highlights a couple of things as we wrap up Kate.
13:48
Speaker 3: Number one, every child is different. Number two, every child's
13:51
Speaker 3: experience at a school is different. So your friends might say, oh,
13:55
Speaker 3: that school down the road is amazing, don't go near
13:57
Speaker 3: the one up the road, And yet you you don't
14:00
Speaker 3: listen to them, and you go against their advice and
14:02
Speaker 3: your kids flourish and thrive. When I look at the
14:04
Speaker 3: school experience that we had in Brisbane, it was not
14:07
Speaker 3: a good one at all, and yet people were looking
14:09
Speaker 3: at us going, how could you not have had a
14:10
Speaker 3: good experience at that school?
14:11
Speaker 1: It's so good?
14:12
Speaker 3: And then they were looking at us when we put
14:13
Speaker 3: our kids into Shla Park High School and they were saying,
14:16
Speaker 3: what are you doing? But Dorothea Jensen was a great principal,
14:19
Speaker 3: and our daughter who was there just loved it. In fact,
14:24
Speaker 3: even now she misses that school and speaks so highly
14:27
Speaker 3: of it. So children, your children ultimately need to have
14:32
Speaker 3: some voice. But as a parent, you make the decision
14:36
Speaker 3: and then you watch. Don't be afraid to change schools
14:38
Speaker 3: if you have to, But also trying not to do
14:40
Speaker 3: four schools in five years, that's not good either.
14:43
Speaker 2: I just wanted to finish with one last story. So
14:46
Speaker 2: our third daughter found herself in a year going into year
14:49
Speaker 2: twelve and we needed to make a decision about the
14:52
Speaker 2: school because she couldn't go back to the school she
14:55
Speaker 2: was originally attending, and we were doing everything we could
15:00
Speaker 2: to give her autonomy over it, and she finally looked
15:03
Speaker 2: at us one day and she just said, you need
15:05
Speaker 2: to make the decision because I can't. It's just too big.
15:09
Speaker 2: And so this idea that we can involve our kids
15:12
Speaker 2: in the decision making process is such an important one,
15:15
Speaker 2: But there will come times for us as parents where
15:18
Speaker 2: we actually just have to step in sometimes because our
15:21
Speaker 2: child just doesn't have the capacity, whether it be emotionally,
15:25
Speaker 2: mentally or physically at that point in time. But sometimes
15:28
Speaker 2: it might be just because we see the bigger picture
15:32
Speaker 2: and we've just got to be the big person in
15:33
Speaker 2: the situation to determine when and how much autonomy we
15:37
Speaker 2: give our kids in that choice.
15:39
Speaker 3: Kate Hope it helps plenty of food for thought choosing
15:41
Speaker 3: the right school for your kids. There's a lot in it,
15:43
Speaker 3: and it sometimes feels like the stakes are high, because
15:47
Speaker 3: in some ways they are, but careful consideration, we'll get
15:50
Speaker 3: you through it. The Happy Families podcast is produced by
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Speaker 3: Justin Rowland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
15:56
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Speaker 3: summits with the world's very best adolescent experts, please visit
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Speaker 3: us at our Facebook page, Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families,
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