Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Band's Richard Manuel: His Life, Music & Tragic Death [Episode 289]

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The Band's Richard Manuel: His Life, Music & Tragic Death [Episode 289] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: Coming up on Booked on Rock as a fan of
0:02
Speaker 1: the band, man am I happy to have this author
0:04
Speaker 1: on the podcast, Stephen Lewis. He's written a brand new book,
0:07
Speaker 1: the first official biography on the late great Richard Manuel.
0:11
Speaker 1: We talk about his musical brilliance, the high times, the
0:13
Speaker 1: low times, We celebrate his life, will come to terms
0:16
Speaker 1: with his tragic early death. All that coming up next.
0:20
Speaker 2: We're totally rock and roll. I mean gott to leave you.
0:24
Speaker 2: You're reading Little Hands says it's time to rock and roll.
0:28
Speaker 1: Roll up, I totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on
0:36
Speaker 1: Rock andm Eric Senitch another great author on the show,
0:39
Speaker 1: author Stephen Lewis. This is his first time appearance on
0:42
Speaker 1: the show. He has written the new book Richard Manuel,
0:45
Speaker 1: His Life and Music from the Hawks and Bob Dylan
0:47
Speaker 1: to the Band. It is due out June seventeenth. You
0:51
Speaker 1: can pre order now through shifferbooks dot com. We'll get
0:53
Speaker 1: into all the details after we talk about the book.
0:56
Speaker 1: So great to have you on, Steven, Thank you for
0:58
Speaker 1: being here.
0:58
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
1:00
Speaker 1: The first official biography of Richard Manuel. That's correct.
1:04
Speaker 2: Yes, there's been some projects that happened in the past. Unfortunately,
1:07
Speaker 2: none of them came to fruition, according to you know
1:09
Speaker 2: people I talked to. So once this Scott rolling, it
1:13
Speaker 2: was pretty easy to get the support of the family
1:15
Speaker 2: just because of it's been needed, you know, And they
1:19
Speaker 2: realized that and they were just amazing and thankfully gave
1:22
Speaker 2: me their approval to do this. And I'm glad how
1:24
Speaker 2: it turned out.
1:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were watching The Last Waltz and the idea
1:28
Speaker 1: came about why not write a book on Richard Manuel.
1:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, it's weird. A bunch of things
1:35
Speaker 2: kind of happened to make this work. First off, as
1:39
Speaker 2: I said in the book, I was watching The Last
1:40
Speaker 2: Waltz and you know, anyone who's seen that one of
1:42
Speaker 2: the greatest obviously rock films ever. But when I first
1:45
Speaker 2: saw it, Richard struck me just this aura about this guy,
1:49
Speaker 2: and because I am what I refer to as a
1:52
Speaker 2: rock geek, I wanted to go deep. I ended up
1:56
Speaker 2: doing a deep dive. Now fast forward a few years later,
1:59
Speaker 2: you know, I'd written some piece is on Richard, had
2:01
Speaker 2: some people reach out via my website be like, you know,
2:03
Speaker 2: this guy needs a bigger story. So I saw the
2:07
Speaker 2: Robbie Robertson film. I think it was in twenty nineteen.
2:09
Speaker 2: Once we're brothers, and the same thing occurred to me.
2:12
Speaker 2: I'm like, I want more Richard. I just I started
2:16
Speaker 2: then and kind of slowly but surely started collecting information
2:21
Speaker 2: in a meaningful way. You know. There were stories that existed,
2:24
Speaker 2: and then I tried to kind of tie them together
2:26
Speaker 2: with new information, new interviews and stories that had never
2:29
Speaker 2: been told. And really it became a biography but also
2:34
Speaker 2: a musical analysis and kind of celebration.
2:37
Speaker 1: And there were challenges along the way. Four years it
2:40
Speaker 1: took to write the.
2:40
Speaker 2: Book, yeah, and I mean admittedly and unfortunately, a lot
2:44
Speaker 2: of people that I would have liked to talk to
2:47
Speaker 2: weren't around, and actually we lost some people during the
2:51
Speaker 2: process of the book. But the people that were available
2:55
Speaker 2: and wanted to speak on Richard, it was just a
2:57
Speaker 2: testament to his enduring person elli and the effect he
3:00
Speaker 2: had on people musically and as a human being. Because
3:03
Speaker 2: everybody was just so willing to offer what they knew,
3:07
Speaker 2: what they loved about Richard, whether it be photographs, stories, music,
3:11
Speaker 2: and really in that sense, you know, well like any biography,
3:14
Speaker 2: but it was a true collaborative experience. I was just
3:16
Speaker 2: blown away by how I was, like, I was right
3:19
Speaker 2: about his effect on people, because everyone wanted to talk
3:22
Speaker 2: about him.
3:23
Speaker 1: Which is what's so tragic about it, because so many
3:25
Speaker 1: people loved him, but yet he seemed to be so
3:27
Speaker 1: hard on himself.
3:29
Speaker 2: And that's exactly it. I tried to bring out the
3:32
Speaker 2: more good because we all know what happened, you know,
3:36
Speaker 2: and I wanted to change the end of the book,
3:39
Speaker 2: you know, and I got to the end. Honestly, I
3:41
Speaker 2: was like, this has to end differently, you know, it
3:44
Speaker 2: has to end there, and it didn't. But there's a
3:47
Speaker 2: lot of good in there, and I feel like, you know,
3:48
Speaker 2: my end goal in this thing was to have a
3:50
Speaker 2: reassessment of his music and kind of highlight his contributions musically,
3:55
Speaker 2: and then the biography kind of went around the music
3:58
Speaker 2: and then informed each other.
4:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. So thankful that, Yeah, his full story is being
4:03
Speaker 1: told because so often were remembered by how our life ends,
4:07
Speaker 1: at least in these situations when somebody's life ends tragically,
4:11
Speaker 1: it's like that's the only thing people think about, and
4:13
Speaker 1: there's so much more.
4:15
Speaker 2: You're exactly right, and that was what I you know, again,
4:18
Speaker 2: you can't change obviously what happened, but that's what really
4:21
Speaker 2: the last Waltz, you know, with the limited exposure Richard
4:24
Speaker 2: had as far as interviews and things like that, when
4:27
Speaker 2: you think about Richard Manuel, you're like the last Waltz,
4:30
Speaker 2: which admittedly, by his own admission, he was not in
4:32
Speaker 2: the greatest of shape, and then his tragic demise and
4:36
Speaker 2: those things you can't you know, like I told some
4:39
Speaker 2: of his family members, that's the elephant in the room.
4:41
Speaker 2: You have to talk about it. But I wanted the
4:43
Speaker 2: focus to be on the music and his just natural
4:47
Speaker 2: ability to be an ensemble player and to create and
4:52
Speaker 2: write melodic music. I really wanted that to come to
4:54
Speaker 2: the forefront.
4:55
Speaker 1: And the family provided you with some great photos, amazing
4:57
Speaker 1: photos of his childhood. So let's start there. Now, let's
5:01
Speaker 1: talk about his background. When and where is he born,
5:04
Speaker 1: where does he grow up, what's his life like.
5:06
Speaker 2: Richard was born in Stratford, Ontario, Canada. He had three brothers,
5:09
Speaker 2: two loving parents, a normal kid. Music hit him at church, which,
5:14
Speaker 2: if you probably know a lot of guys, the gospel
5:17
Speaker 2: influence a lot of musicians, the harmonies that all. It
5:22
Speaker 2: hit a lot of these guys through church or through
5:26
Speaker 2: school music, you know, and they and they'd gotten Richard.
5:29
Speaker 2: It was singing harmonies in church and that's what got him.
5:33
Speaker 2: A typical kid though, you know, hell Raiser had a
5:36
Speaker 2: paper route and then got bit by the bug for music,
5:40
Speaker 2: and it was in that time period. And I really
5:42
Speaker 2: that was one of the things that really intrigued me
5:44
Speaker 2: about Richard's story is he got on the rock and
5:48
Speaker 2: roll bus right along with everybody else. The thing that
5:52
Speaker 2: was different, and I tried to draw attention to this
5:54
Speaker 2: through the book, is Richard's affinity for the blues at
5:59
Speaker 2: such a young age. And I've said this to some
6:03
Speaker 2: other folks. The US wasn't kind to their their blues musicians.
6:07
Speaker 2: They didn't know what they had at that time, your
6:09
Speaker 2: late fifties, early sixties, you know, they didn't really know
6:13
Speaker 2: until the British blues boom, until these other guys started
6:17
Speaker 2: playing this blues music. And it really fascinated me at
6:20
Speaker 2: Richard's seventeen years old in Canada picking up on these
6:24
Speaker 2: tunes and becoming, you know, to sing the blues, you
6:27
Speaker 2: have to be authentic. And it's kind of crazy that
6:30
Speaker 2: he gained this authenticity just by repetition. Immersion and practice
6:36
Speaker 2: and the love of the form. And you know that
6:39
Speaker 2: was something that I didn't hear myself in any of
6:42
Speaker 2: these stories. You know, you hear the Ray Charles comparison,
6:45
Speaker 2: which is which is obvious, But then you look into
6:47
Speaker 2: Bobby Bland, James Brown, Jimmy Reid like all that, you
6:51
Speaker 2: can hear him all in Richard, especially in those early
6:54
Speaker 2: Hawks recordings.
6:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was self taught. That's the thing. He listened
6:59
Speaker 1: to radio a lot w LAC. Yeah, he had an
7:02
Speaker 1: elaborate way of capturing that late night signaling, gets that
7:07
Speaker 1: signal and he's listening to rhythm and blues and he's
7:09
Speaker 1: not just listening, but he's studying the styles of like
7:12
Speaker 1: you said, Bobby Blair, Ray Charles, and Ricky Nelson mostly
7:15
Speaker 1: self taught, right.
7:16
Speaker 2: Yes, he had a couple lessons. And I talked to
7:20
Speaker 2: someone who was the son of one of his piano teacher,
7:24
Speaker 2: and it was like, it's kind of like school for him,
7:28
Speaker 2: you know, and school wasn't fun for any kid, especially Richard,
7:31
Speaker 2: And it's like he got what he needed from it
7:34
Speaker 2: and then he took it to another place. You know,
7:36
Speaker 2: he didn't need the confines of rules and regulations. He
7:40
Speaker 2: wanted to be to make his own path, so he
7:44
Speaker 2: got the basics and then all that other stuff came,
7:47
Speaker 2: like he said, from seven inch Records in Wlac.
7:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you say he comes along at just
7:52
Speaker 1: the right time. He's born in what nineteen forty was
7:55
Speaker 1: the year he was born three forty three yep, and
7:58
Speaker 1: there is that explosion of rock and roll and that
8:02
Speaker 1: takes over and now he's super serious about being a
8:05
Speaker 1: musician full time. So let's get into his time with
8:08
Speaker 1: the Hawks. Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks. Interesting, he's from Arkansas,
8:12
Speaker 1: but gets a huge following in Canada, and then Richard
8:16
Speaker 1: lands on Ronnie's radar early on. But and this is
8:20
Speaker 1: another aspect of Richards as a person. He was so
8:24
Speaker 1: loyal to family and friends. Getting him to leave his
8:27
Speaker 1: band to join Ronnie's band, that took some doing.
8:30
Speaker 2: And that kind of is a theme that you can
8:33
Speaker 2: trace through his entire career. That was another thing that
8:37
Speaker 2: I discovered, to go a little off off your question,
8:40
Speaker 2: is Richard worked best in a collaborative environment, like a
8:44
Speaker 2: nurturing environment creativity, And you can kind of trace that
8:48
Speaker 2: from Stratford in Kenny Keelmusky's basement to the basement in
8:53
Speaker 2: Big Pink, you know, all the way down the line.
8:56
Speaker 2: He always he was an honorable and loved his friends.
9:02
Speaker 2: So to your point, he made a promise with the
9:05
Speaker 2: Revels drummer Jimmy Winkler and said, you know, if we
9:08
Speaker 2: ever leave this band, the Rebels, we're going together. And Ronnie,
9:14
Speaker 2: you know, he kept pushing and he saw Richard the
9:18
Speaker 2: you know the story that was in Levon Helms's biography,
9:20
Speaker 2: saw Richard do Georgia at the Stratford Fairgrounds when that
9:24
Speaker 2: was it. You know, he's like, this guy, Ronnie was
9:27
Speaker 2: a collector of talent, and he was like, there's the
9:29
Speaker 2: guy I need to get. But to your point, he
9:32
Speaker 2: just he was honorable and cared so deeply about his friends.
9:36
Speaker 2: You know that he wasn't a guy to break trust.
9:38
Speaker 1: Even if he knows it's an opportunity that could benefit
9:41
Speaker 1: his career.
9:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's part of the that's part
9:45
Speaker 2: of the story that you're like, man, because you know,
9:49
Speaker 2: being the only guy that didn't have a solo record
9:51
Speaker 2: in the band, You're like, how is this possible for
9:54
Speaker 2: such a great songwriter, for such a great performer, singer,
9:56
Speaker 2: multi instrumentalist. It's just that's one of the things I
10:00
Speaker 2: couldn't definitively answer. But I think he needed and was
10:06
Speaker 2: begging for collaborator right till the end, honestly.
10:09
Speaker 1: And what ultimately leads him to deciding, Okay, I'll leave
10:13
Speaker 1: the Rebels and I'll join Ronnie. It was his bandmate
10:16
Speaker 1: that told.
10:16
Speaker 2: Him, Yeah, Jimmy Winkler, it told him, He's like, you
10:19
Speaker 2: got to do this, you know, you have to do this.
10:23
Speaker 2: And to preface that, they had all gone down to
10:26
Speaker 2: Arkansas from Stratford. If you can imagine a bunch of
10:30
Speaker 2: guys piling in a car from age sixteen to nineteen eighteen,
10:35
Speaker 2: piling their gear going down to Ronnie's club, you know,
10:38
Speaker 2: and they kind of they kind of sharpened their tools
10:42
Speaker 2: down there and played in front of heavy crowds, crowds
10:47
Speaker 2: that were begging for blues music. You know. They ran
10:49
Speaker 2: the gamut was it was absolutely crazy. And when they
10:53
Speaker 2: came back to Stratford was at late sixty one and
10:56
Speaker 2: Ronnie made that offer, they all knew what Rich had,
11:01
Speaker 2: you know, and they encouraged it. And it took some
11:04
Speaker 2: pushing family friends and the band. But as a testament
11:08
Speaker 2: to that band that he was in, the Rebels. As
11:10
Speaker 2: you probably know, both John Till and Kenny Tilmuski ended
11:14
Speaker 2: up with pretty good musical careers out of that.
11:17
Speaker 1: Everybody's career turned out just fine. So it worked out.
11:19
Speaker 1: So he's with the Hawks for a couple of years
11:22
Speaker 1: or two, maybe three years. I think it was basically
11:24
Speaker 1: Richard and the Hawks. They all leave the nest that
11:27
Speaker 1: was Ronnie Hawkins band in nineteen sixty four. What led
11:31
Speaker 1: to that.
11:31
Speaker 2: Things started to separate a little bit with these guys
11:34
Speaker 2: because Ronnie had things a certain way. Now, what I
11:38
Speaker 2: have to say is Ronnie was very responsible for how
11:42
Speaker 2: these guys turned out later. The work ethic that he
11:45
Speaker 2: is still exactly, yeah, the discipline, But it got to
11:49
Speaker 2: be a point where, you know, Ronnie famously said, it's
11:52
Speaker 2: like the stuff that these guys are playing got too
11:54
Speaker 2: far out from me. You know, they wanted to play,
11:55
Speaker 2: They want to play gut bucket Blues, and our guys
11:59
Speaker 2: and club owners wanted us to play, you know, the
12:02
Speaker 2: twist like, they had a certain things and they needed
12:05
Speaker 2: to make money. So it got to the point where
12:07
Speaker 2: Ronnie had family, Ronnie had things he had to do.
12:11
Speaker 2: The Hawks felt that they had something and they could
12:14
Speaker 2: do it on their own. They finally decided to do that,
12:17
Speaker 2: and they kind of operated in this nebulous space for
12:21
Speaker 2: a while where they were doing what they wanted to do,
12:23
Speaker 2: but they weren't really making any money and living conditions
12:28
Speaker 2: were hard, and they wondered, all of them at one
12:30
Speaker 2: point if they had made the right decision.
12:32
Speaker 1: And we should know too. I mean, these are all
12:34
Speaker 1: the guys that make up eventually the band.
12:37
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.
12:38
Speaker 1: So that's Levon, it's Robbie Robertson, it's the Professor Garth yep.
12:43
Speaker 1: And then they end up becoming Bob Dylan's band. So
12:47
Speaker 1: another important name we have to mention is John Hammond Junior.
12:50
Speaker 1: You talk about his importance in terms of what would
12:53
Speaker 1: lead to the band.
12:55
Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing is is so after you know,
12:58
Speaker 2: and they were playing everywhere.
12:59
Speaker 1: Sorry, Rick Tanko too, I got to know. Oh my god,
13:02
Speaker 1: Rick Tanker, what a voice.
13:03
Speaker 2: Another he could have his own book, you know what
13:07
Speaker 2: I mean? All these guys and make that clear, they're
13:10
Speaker 2: all so deserving and that's what made them, you know,
13:13
Speaker 2: allude back to what I said a bit ago. You know,
13:15
Speaker 2: Ronnie was this great collector of talent and took the
13:18
Speaker 2: best guys from every band he saw, which is just crazy,
13:23
Speaker 2: and he made this monster.
13:25
Speaker 1: You know, for some I ever heard, it makes no difference.
13:27
Speaker 1: I thought, my god, this is the greatest voice I've
13:29
Speaker 1: ever heard. And then you hear the other guys. You
13:31
Speaker 1: hear Richard saying, like, my god, that's the greatest voice. Oh,
13:36
Speaker 1: it's just an amazing collection of talent. Sorry, anyway, we'll
13:39
Speaker 1: get to the band a little bit more.
13:40
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but you know that's you wonder why they
13:42
Speaker 2: were so fantastic and you hit it right on the head.
13:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, how did they end up? Bob Dylan
13:46
Speaker 1: becomes part of the story. Now.
13:50
Speaker 2: John Hammond had been playing somewhere I believe it was
13:54
Speaker 2: the Purple Onion, I believe somewhere in Toronto and one
13:57
Speaker 2: of his you know, as a one of the best
14:00
Speaker 2: lose purest ever. Hammond's doing this show and somebody comes
14:04
Speaker 2: in and he's like, these guys leave on in the Hawks.
14:06
Speaker 2: You know, you guys, you got to check these guys out.
14:09
Speaker 2: And they connected and when and John was like, they
14:12
Speaker 2: are authentic, they are real. These guys aren't playing around.
14:16
Speaker 2: And you know, in the turn of the fifties into
14:19
Speaker 2: the sixties, before the Beatles came, you know, mainstream pop
14:23
Speaker 2: music got a little sanitized. It wasn't the rock you
14:27
Speaker 2: know that came in the late fifties. Things were you know,
14:31
Speaker 2: when Elvis came back from the army, it started to go.
14:33
Speaker 2: But things were just kind of mushy, I guess, for
14:35
Speaker 2: lack of a better term. And these guys were not
14:38
Speaker 2: they were anything but And Robbie was writing songs, Richard
14:42
Speaker 2: was writing songs at this point. That's something that's that's
14:45
Speaker 2: never really talked about, is you know, there wasn't just
14:48
Speaker 2: one songwriter in the band at this point. Richard had
14:51
Speaker 2: been writing songs since he was sixteen years old. And
14:54
Speaker 2: so Hammond saw these guys, and in particular Richard, he's like,
14:56
Speaker 2: you know, this guy knew the blues. He's like, I
14:59
Speaker 2: knew blues players. This guy was one of them, the
15:02
Speaker 2: Hammond connection, and it gets kind of fluid, you know,
15:05
Speaker 2: hamm and Nud Dylan, and there's a lot of myth
15:09
Speaker 2: and a lot of mystery and a lot of what
15:11
Speaker 2: But Hammond told me straight up, he's like, I would
15:13
Speaker 2: have taken these guys as my electric band if I
15:15
Speaker 2: was gonna do an electric I was thinking electric blues,
15:18
Speaker 2: and I was like, who else would be would play
15:20
Speaker 2: with me? But the Hawks that actually came to fruition
15:23
Speaker 2: on his So Many Roads LP, John Hammond's nineteen sixty
15:26
Speaker 2: four record, Garth and Robbie play on it. Rick and
15:29
Speaker 2: Richard do not, and it's not John said it wasn't
15:32
Speaker 2: by his choice. It was just who was in the
15:34
Speaker 2: sessions at that point, you know, and things of that nature.
15:37
Speaker 2: But he wanted them as his group through connections again,
15:40
Speaker 2: the Canadian connection. Mary Martin, who worked for Albert Grossman,
15:45
Speaker 2: saw the Hawks in Toronto and was a great fan
15:48
Speaker 2: of them. And Dylan wanted to go electric, you know.
15:52
Speaker 2: Post Newport, he had played with the Butterfield Blues Band
15:54
Speaker 2: and then was getting ready to put together a full
15:56
Speaker 2: electric band. Mary Martin was like, you got to check
15:59
Speaker 2: these guys out. You gotta check these guys out, to
16:02
Speaker 2: the point where like even Dylan was like, okay, you know,
16:05
Speaker 2: like I get it. He ended up getting Robbie and
16:08
Speaker 2: Levan because all he needed was a drummer and guitar player.
16:12
Speaker 2: After his electric debut at Newport, they did two shows
16:17
Speaker 2: Forest Hills in the Highwood Bowl, absolute chaos by all accounts,
16:21
Speaker 2: people going nuts, people booing, people cheering, whatever it was.
16:24
Speaker 2: And Dylan asked Robby and Levon to join join his
16:28
Speaker 2: group full time, and both of them, and both of
16:31
Speaker 2: their respective memoirs, said, you gotta take us all. You
16:35
Speaker 2: gotta take us all. We're a package deal here. And
16:37
Speaker 2: the thinking is, we already backed a guy, we already
16:40
Speaker 2: backed Ronnie Hawkins. We're not going to back another guy.
16:44
Speaker 2: You know, We've got our own thing going. And Richard
16:48
Speaker 2: was all about it. You know, these guys weren't folkies,
16:52
Speaker 2: but Richard was completely on board, and Dylan ended up
16:56
Speaker 2: going up to Toronto and after a show I believe
16:59
Speaker 2: it was with the Friars Clu, after they had played
17:01
Speaker 2: their multiple sets late into the night, they got together
17:04
Speaker 2: and started to try to build this music that Dylan
17:08
Speaker 2: had in his mind in the Hawks were the perfect fit.
17:10
Speaker 1: For rock podcasts. We'll be back after this. During our
17:15
Speaker 1: brief information, let's take a flying trip from lambda fantasy
17:18
Speaker 1: to everyday life. You're right quote. Musically, Richard's playing had
17:23
Speaker 1: advanced to another level while on tour with Dylan. There's
17:26
Speaker 1: a section in the book on the nineteen sixty six
17:28
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan electric sets. It's a basic makeup of the
17:32
Speaker 1: electric sets that Dylan and the Hawks played every night
17:34
Speaker 1: on that tour. And you highlight Richard's musical moments, share
17:38
Speaker 1: your thoughts on those highlights, like a rolling Stone seemed
17:41
Speaker 1: to really stand out.
17:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, and see one of the things. And as we
17:45
Speaker 2: talked about at the beginning, with these narratives that created
17:48
Speaker 2: when just a back trick a little bit, Richard replaced
17:51
Speaker 2: a pretty good piano player in the Hawks, and there
17:54
Speaker 2: was a narrative that created that. You know, Richard, per
17:58
Speaker 2: his own description, was a rhythm player, rhythm piano player.
18:01
Speaker 2: And once I started to deep dive into these Hawks
18:04
Speaker 2: recordings and then with Dylan, you can trace this ascent
18:08
Speaker 2: of him not just being a rhythm player but being
18:13
Speaker 2: a melodic inventor, you know, I mean, he's moving into
18:17
Speaker 2: these songs that aren't electric songs and that were written
18:21
Speaker 2: by somebody else and just sliding into the ensemble. And
18:25
Speaker 2: you can hear adding all of these flourishes and these touches,
18:29
Speaker 2: and Garth Hudson is a huge part of Richard's ascent
18:33
Speaker 2: as well in his playing. You know who else besides
18:36
Speaker 2: I believe the Rascals had a dual keyboard attack. Yeah,
18:40
Speaker 2: nobody had one like the Hawks, and I think it
18:43
Speaker 2: added a uniqueness to their approach, and obviously Dylan Dylan
18:48
Speaker 2: loved it. But to your point, these sets like a
18:51
Speaker 2: rolling Stone, you know, that was a single and it
18:54
Speaker 2: was put out and people would boo the entire night,
18:58
Speaker 2: and then like a rolling Stone, these crowds will be like, oh,
19:00
Speaker 2: we know this one, this is great, and the Hawks
19:03
Speaker 2: and Dylan would use it as like kind of like
19:05
Speaker 2: a not so nice send off. Yeah, oh the anger
19:10
Speaker 2: or the crowd the most more aggressive they would play.
19:12
Speaker 2: But you know that the piano lick that kicks that
19:15
Speaker 2: off that El Cooper played in the studio, I mean
19:18
Speaker 2: it's like Richard slid In hits the lines, it hits
19:22
Speaker 2: the improv. They would stretch it out at the end
19:24
Speaker 2: and it's like he'd been playing these songs his entire life.
19:27
Speaker 2: All those guys. I mean, it's almost so revolutionary, those
19:31
Speaker 2: sixty six shows that even today pick a night and
19:34
Speaker 2: it's like it's fresh, it's combative, it's aggressive, it's everything
19:39
Speaker 2: you want rock music to be. And Richard was a vital,
19:43
Speaker 2: vital part of that.
19:44
Speaker 1: Stephen Lewis is the author of the new book Richard
19:46
Speaker 1: Manuel His Life in Music from the Hawks and Bob
19:49
Speaker 1: Dylan to the Band throughout June seventeenth. So let's get
19:52
Speaker 1: to the origins of the band, and for this we
19:54
Speaker 1: zero in on a three bedroom home on twenty one
19:58
Speaker 1: eighty eight Stole Road in West New York. I've never
20:01
Speaker 1: been a friend of mine has been there. I'm assuming
20:04
Speaker 1: have you been. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just
20:07
Speaker 1: you know, it's nondescriptive. It's not yeah, because we know
20:10
Speaker 1: what it is now, but otherwise it's just, you know,
20:12
Speaker 1: it's just a house there, and.
20:13
Speaker 2: It's exactly it. It just happened to tap into that
20:17
Speaker 2: magic and the cat skills, you know that yeah magic.
20:20
Speaker 1: What led the guys there? And then how does that
20:22
Speaker 1: lead to the brilliant debut album from the band, Music
20:25
Speaker 1: from the Big Pink.
20:26
Speaker 2: So so much was going on at this point. Levon
20:29
Speaker 2: left the Hawks because he couldn't deal with the combative crowds,
20:32
Speaker 2: the booing, the traveling, just he it wasn't for him.
20:37
Speaker 2: So he had left, and the Hawks continued on with
20:40
Speaker 2: a different drummer. Through this Dylan European Stomp in the
20:44
Speaker 2: spring of sixty six, and after the tour they all
20:48
Speaker 2: went to New York. They kind of would shed it
20:50
Speaker 2: a little bit. Barry Feinstein, famous rock photographer, had a
20:54
Speaker 2: workshop there. He let the Hawks move in and kind
20:58
Speaker 2: of start recording, and Richard recorded Beautiful Thing, the first
21:03
Speaker 2: documented original for the Hawks of the band that we
21:08
Speaker 2: have available to us, and him and Rick recorded that
21:11
Speaker 2: in Barry Feinstein's photo studio. So they were they took
21:14
Speaker 2: the opportunity to start seeing where they were gonna go.
21:18
Speaker 2: And then Dylan had his motorcycle accident famously, and basically
21:23
Speaker 2: the Hawks are on retainer and Grossman Elbert Grossman Management.
21:27
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what are we gonna do here? If
21:29
Speaker 2: Bob's laid up, Like, what what's gonna happen? So what
21:33
Speaker 2: Dylan started to do was they filmed the sixty six
21:35
Speaker 2: tour unreleased movie Eat. The document came of that, and
21:39
Speaker 2: they started to do cut ins and some like surreal
21:42
Speaker 2: weird stuff up in Woodstock. Robbie went up to meet
21:45
Speaker 2: with Bob and then he called Rick and Richard who
21:48
Speaker 2: were still in New York. The guys have been traveling
21:50
Speaker 2: around to see the friends and family back in Canada whatever,
21:52
Speaker 2: and he's like, Robbi's like, you guys should come up
21:55
Speaker 2: here and see what we're getting into. So Rick went
21:57
Speaker 2: up found Big Pink. Rich followed and they got into
22:01
Speaker 2: doing this kind of surreal There's a few pictures in
22:03
Speaker 2: the book of them, you know, Bob and a kuonskin
22:06
Speaker 2: cap and they're playing in some weird room. But they
22:09
Speaker 2: were all doing like these cut ins and just stuff
22:11
Speaker 2: for the film. And then sure enough they're musicians, they're
22:15
Speaker 2: not filmmakers. So they Bob started showing up at Big
22:19
Speaker 2: Pink every day, and what was the natural thing that
22:22
Speaker 2: would happen. They'd start creating music. Bob had a certain
22:28
Speaker 2: kind of vision. He wanted to teach these guys. You know,
22:31
Speaker 2: the Hawks came from an R and B blues rock background.
22:34
Speaker 2: Bob wanted to teach him about the traditional stuff that
22:36
Speaker 2: he had been raised on. But it was copa setic.
22:40
Speaker 2: Both of them were encouraging, you know. And that's the thing.
22:42
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, Bob did this for the band. He did,
22:45
Speaker 2: but the band did this for Bob as well. You know.
22:48
Speaker 2: It was the perfect mixture. And I always point to
22:51
Speaker 2: and this may be crazy, but I point to John
22:54
Speaker 2: Wesley Harding and Nashville Skyline. That's a different Bob Dylan singing.
23:00
Speaker 1: Nashville Skyline for sure.
23:04
Speaker 2: Exactly. You're sitting in a basement with Rick Danko and
23:07
Speaker 2: Richard Manual doing these basement harmonies, you know, and it's
23:11
Speaker 2: like they both rubbed off.
23:13
Speaker 1: They influenced each other totally.
23:15
Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, Bob wrote with Rick and Richard,
23:20
Speaker 2: which was a rarity in those days. And Dylan didn't
23:23
Speaker 2: use backing vocals either. And that's what's so cool about
23:26
Speaker 2: those basement tapes is you know, it's like just free
23:31
Speaker 2: flowing in the beautiful harmonies and then bouncing back and forth.
23:35
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's humorous, sometimes it's beautiful, but it's always musical.
23:40
Speaker 2: You know.
23:41
Speaker 1: Man, I'm thinking about Nashville Skyline now because I've always
23:43
Speaker 1: wondered what influenced that change in vocal style. Maybe that's
23:47
Speaker 1: what it was, hearing Richard and hearing Rick and beautiful
23:52
Speaker 1: high falsetto voices.
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, and John Wesley you know, right before it, you.
23:57
Speaker 1: Know, you're right, John Wesley Harding, Yeah.
23:59
Speaker 2: That's moothness in his voice. It's just I think he
24:01
Speaker 2: made a little more effort seeing like hearing these guys,
24:04
Speaker 2: you know, like osmosis. In Richard's case, the songwriting. You know,
24:09
Speaker 2: you're sitting with the greatest songwriter arguably of our times.
24:15
Speaker 2: That's gotta rub off, you know, even the construction, because
24:18
Speaker 2: again Richard was all about melody, not so much words.
24:22
Speaker 2: He could write words, but that wasn't his strength. His
24:24
Speaker 2: strength was melody. And I feel like, you know that
24:27
Speaker 2: combination of Dylan and Richard working together, which birth tears
24:30
Speaker 2: of rage?
24:31
Speaker 1: Which is that's the one I want to ask you about. Yeah,
24:33
Speaker 1: the opening track. They wrote that together. Bob and Richard wrote, Okay.
24:38
Speaker 2: They had a typewriter on the table and Bob would
24:41
Speaker 2: come in, walk in big pink in the morning, make
24:44
Speaker 2: his famous high test coffee. Guys would be slow to rise,
24:47
Speaker 2: people be you know, getting up, coming down, and Bob
24:50
Speaker 2: would just be banging away. And one of these days
24:52
Speaker 2: Richard was at the piano playing that regal set of changes,
24:56
Speaker 2: and Bob handed him the lyrics and said, can you
24:59
Speaker 2: work with this? And Richard, in an interview with the
25:01
Speaker 2: Woodstock Times, was like, you know, you don't ask Bob Dylan,
25:04
Speaker 2: like what does this mean? So I just put music
25:08
Speaker 2: with it. Robbie and his memoir said, you know, I
25:11
Speaker 2: felt that that was that when Richard's writing ability took
25:15
Speaker 2: the next step, and also when like we took the
25:18
Speaker 2: next step, and obviously they felt strongly about that to
25:21
Speaker 2: put it as the opening track of the record.
25:23
Speaker 1: Here's what you write. Tiers of Rage is one of
25:25
Speaker 1: the finest moments of Catskill Mountain sustenance to result from
25:29
Speaker 1: the big pink melting pot of influences. In addition to
25:32
Speaker 1: singing lead vocals on and composing Tiers of Rage and
25:35
Speaker 1: We Can Talk, he's singing lead on chest Fever, one
25:38
Speaker 1: of the all time great band songs. He also contributed
25:41
Speaker 1: smoky piano and a cumulus falsetto that spilled over the
25:44
Speaker 1: edges of Rick Danko's lead part in this Wheels on Fire.
25:49
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about Richard's vocals and how
25:52
Speaker 1: important they were. He describe his importance to the weight
25:55
Speaker 1: and his improvised vocals. What he does with Dylan's lyrics
25:59
Speaker 1: on Tears of Rage is it's so powerful.
26:02
Speaker 2: You're exactly right, and it's that's part of the melodicism
26:05
Speaker 2: I've I've you know, brought up multiple times. Richard had
26:08
Speaker 2: this innate ability and that was one of the things
26:10
Speaker 2: I wanted to draw attention to, is to take whether
26:13
Speaker 2: he's interpreting someone else's song or someone in one of
26:18
Speaker 2: the band's songs, he had this ability to like just
26:21
Speaker 2: add that little bit, whether it's something that's just falls
26:26
Speaker 2: between the cracks or it's something you're like, wow. And
26:28
Speaker 2: I feel like the waight is one of those things
26:30
Speaker 2: you know when you when you layer those three vocals
26:33
Speaker 2: and then he comes in on the top and kind
26:37
Speaker 2: of just drizzles everything over the end, and then you
26:40
Speaker 2: hear the falsetto. It's it's it's there, but it's not
26:44
Speaker 2: like these are things that made the band special. And
26:47
Speaker 2: that's kind of, you know what I wanted to draw
26:49
Speaker 2: attention to. Robbie Robertson wrote a song, beautiful song, but
26:54
Speaker 2: again it goes to those little by everybody, those little
26:57
Speaker 2: contributions and Richard's were always from that musical space that
27:02
Speaker 2: just took things to another level and you can hear
27:03
Speaker 2: it all over the Basement tapes as well as Big Pink.
27:06
Speaker 1: So unique and the only way I can describe it
27:09
Speaker 1: would be too compare it to painting, and each of
27:15
Speaker 1: them brought their own distinct color and you would think, boy,
27:19
Speaker 1: I don't know if you mix all these together, it
27:20
Speaker 1: might come up with this really odd looking collar. But
27:22
Speaker 1: you put them all together and it's this stunning vision
27:26
Speaker 1: of this color that you've ever seen before that takes
27:28
Speaker 1: your breath away. It's it's just, you know, I don't
27:31
Speaker 1: think there's ever been a band like before. Since I
27:34
Speaker 1: don't know on paper, maybe you would look at it
27:36
Speaker 1: and say, I don't know these guys gonna work. But
27:39
Speaker 1: you know, man, did they ever work?
27:41
Speaker 2: And they did, and to your point, you know, perfect
27:44
Speaker 2: analogy with the painting. This has been talked about, but
27:47
Speaker 2: it bears repeating. Is you know, you've got Robbie, who
27:51
Speaker 2: is arguably one of the greatest guitarists as well as
27:53
Speaker 2: being a completely adepth songwriter. You got Levon, who's got
27:57
Speaker 2: the swamp in a groove that like you know in
28:01
Speaker 2: the southern slouch. He's got that which gives them that swing.
28:05
Speaker 2: And then you got the blues influence Richard. You've got
28:09
Speaker 2: the tobacco belt high and lonesome holler from Rick, and
28:13
Speaker 2: then you're like, wow, what else do you need? And
28:15
Speaker 2: then you put in super genius s Garth Hudson, who
28:18
Speaker 2: can put it all together, you know, and can and
28:21
Speaker 2: just put this sheen or this rustic whatever you require
28:25
Speaker 2: over the top of everything. And again it was hard
28:29
Speaker 2: for me. One of the struggles was to write about
28:32
Speaker 2: Richard because you know, as we've talked about, they're also
28:34
Speaker 2: vitally important. But richard contributions I think were in danger
28:39
Speaker 2: of being lost and that was part of the reason
28:42
Speaker 2: for this.
28:43
Speaker 1: As for a songwriting, you say, we can talk as
28:45
Speaker 1: his finest fully formed composition, talk about how he structured
28:49
Speaker 1: the song around whoever sounded right singing it.
28:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's something too that you know that's
28:55
Speaker 2: been talked about with the band a lot. You know,
28:57
Speaker 2: Robbie would say, I'd write these songs for the characters
28:59
Speaker 2: I in the group to sing these. But it's like
29:02
Speaker 2: you go to the first record and Richard contributed Lonesome Susie,
29:07
Speaker 2: we can Talk Tears of Rage, and he was in
29:10
Speaker 2: a station He's writing these amazing songs. And again it
29:14
Speaker 2: goes back to that kind of like selfless musical vibe
29:18
Speaker 2: he gave to everyone when he was collaborating. And first off,
29:24
Speaker 2: you can hear in those chord changes, Richard's piano style
29:27
Speaker 2: is recognizable. I feel like there's songs when you listen
29:30
Speaker 2: to later band songs, you could be like, oh, okay,
29:32
Speaker 2: that definitely came from a piano other than a guitar,
29:35
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Just from the feeling
29:37
Speaker 2: use certain roles and certain kind of changes, like any
29:40
Speaker 2: musician recognizable with we can talk. It was one of
29:44
Speaker 2: those things I feel like Richard's like, I can't be
29:46
Speaker 2: in front, you know, I mean, this is a story.
29:49
Speaker 2: And Levan said in his bioph like that is the
29:53
Speaker 2: way we actually talked. Richard captured that, like the bouncing
29:56
Speaker 2: back and forth, and it almost is like you're in
29:58
Speaker 2: the basement and you can see these guys at least
30:02
Speaker 2: I can't. You can visualize the banter and the contributions.
30:06
Speaker 2: It's that same old riddle, only starting from the middle,
30:08
Speaker 2: like stuff like these little couplets and these little gorganice. Yeah,
30:12
Speaker 2: you can just feel the organicness. You're exactly right with that.
30:17
Speaker 2: It's one of the things I never could properly answer
30:20
Speaker 2: because he wrote words pretty well, you know, whereas Robbie
30:24
Speaker 2: would dealing characters, Richard wrote from inside. I guess you know,
30:29
Speaker 2: if you were gonna and that's why they made such
30:30
Speaker 2: excellent collaborators on the songs they worked on together. I
30:34
Speaker 2: feel like Richard the theme that we can carry this
30:37
Speaker 2: whole thing was selfless, no matter if it was with
30:39
Speaker 2: friends or if it was with music. And I think
30:41
Speaker 2: we Can Talk is a good representation of that kind
30:44
Speaker 2: of musical selflessness.
30:45
Speaker 1: He probably would be uncomfortable to know that there was
30:47
Speaker 1: a book written about him, right totally. I don't know
30:52
Speaker 1: why you're writing about me, but okay.
30:54
Speaker 2: You know, you're exactly right. And one of his good
30:56
Speaker 2: friends who knew him later in his life, he goes,
30:59
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like Richard be extremely embarrassed, but
31:03
Speaker 2: he'd be super happy that someone was pointing out his contributions,
31:07
Speaker 2: you know. And there's a story in there about that.
31:10
Speaker 2: When Barney Hoskins book was given to Richard, it said
31:14
Speaker 2: that Richard had done Share Your Love almost as good
31:18
Speaker 2: as Bobby Bland, and Richard's former manager Joe Forno said
31:22
Speaker 2: that Richard was just like walking three inches above the
31:25
Speaker 2: ground for two days after that, you know, just because
31:28
Speaker 2: so he accepted it. He was just uncomfortable taking those.
31:31
Speaker 1: Accoly book on Rock podcasts will be back after this.
31:36
Speaker 1: It's intermation time. A couple more songs. Want to ask
31:40
Speaker 1: you about that. We can't ignore King Harvest has surely
31:43
Speaker 1: come and I shall be released. We cannot ignore those
31:47
Speaker 1: King Harvis, you say, is a song that encapsulated what
31:49
Speaker 1: the band was all about. Talk about why you feel
31:51
Speaker 1: that way and Richard's contributions to this song.
31:54
Speaker 2: I truly feel like every single element of the Bigger
31:59
Speaker 2: Machine is working at its optimal level right there. You know,
32:03
Speaker 2: You've got the songwriting aspect, You've got the relationship of
32:08
Speaker 2: the drums and the bass. It's been talked about by
32:11
Speaker 2: Levan on one of the band classic albums, you know
32:14
Speaker 2: where it's got that whoof like that that move. So
32:18
Speaker 2: you've got the rhythm section, yeah, and then you've got
32:23
Speaker 2: Garth just lay in the bed, you know, shifty making
32:27
Speaker 2: it move. And then you've got Richard's vocals, which are
32:31
Speaker 2: some of the most endearing and desperate at the same
32:35
Speaker 2: time in that song, you know, and I feel like
32:39
Speaker 2: it accomplished everything that the band had set out to
32:41
Speaker 2: do by that second record. I believe Levon I might
32:44
Speaker 2: use the quote in the book where he said, you
32:45
Speaker 2: know this was us like this is where we were like, yeah,
32:49
Speaker 2: we got this I always feel like too that the
32:52
Speaker 2: lyric about the fair ground on the edge of town.
32:54
Speaker 2: For me, I always go back to Stratford because that's
32:57
Speaker 2: when Ronnie saw Richard's singing, was at the Maragrons and
33:00
Speaker 2: Strafford and then they're not related. But it's just one
33:03
Speaker 2: of those things, you know ing things in my head
33:05
Speaker 2: and and but I do feel, as I'm sure hardcore
33:09
Speaker 2: band fans feel the same way, like that's where it
33:11
Speaker 2: all like worked in perfect syncopation together.
33:16
Speaker 1: And I shall be released. Richard on piano and lead
33:18
Speaker 1: vocals written by Dylan. Yet you write quote like everything
33:21
Speaker 1: he sang the song became.
33:22
Speaker 2: His Yeah, and still you know, even even with Bob
33:27
Speaker 2: doing it and not so current times, but you know,
33:30
Speaker 2: over his course of his career, I feel like, and
33:32
Speaker 2: even you listen to some of the Rolling Thunder stuff
33:35
Speaker 2: with Dylan, he dedicates dedicates it to Richard Manual a
33:38
Speaker 2: couple of nights, and I feel like when you listen
33:40
Speaker 2: to those basement tapes when it was in its formative stages,
33:44
Speaker 2: you can hear Dylan singing, but Richard way up high
33:47
Speaker 2: with that high harmony, and you can feel where the
33:52
Speaker 2: band would have We're gonna take it, you know, and
33:56
Speaker 2: again one of the Dylan's lyrics, like Tears of Raid,
34:00
Speaker 2: it's like Richard's voice almost gives those words more meaning,
34:06
Speaker 2: you know, because it's hard to understand. You can't just say, yes,
34:09
Speaker 2: this is what this song's about, like Richard said, and
34:11
Speaker 2: with I Shall Be Released, it's like, could you ask
34:14
Speaker 2: for anything more than that? Falsetto? And I love to trace,
34:20
Speaker 2: like I said, from the basement tapes to the finished product.
34:23
Speaker 2: It's one of those songs, you know, in the basement
34:25
Speaker 2: they were recorded. They gave some songs. Dylan gave songs
34:28
Speaker 2: to Manford Man, you know, Quinn Eskimo. Some of these
34:31
Speaker 2: songs were given to other people. I Shall Be Released
34:34
Speaker 2: in Tears of Rage, stayed home, you know, stayed with
34:37
Speaker 2: the Hawks, and things.
34:39
Speaker 1: Happened really fast in terms of the band becoming hugely popular.
34:43
Speaker 1: January of seventy they're on the cover of Time magazine.
34:46
Speaker 1: They're huge and at this point, this is I think
34:48
Speaker 1: where we start to see the cracks you right here.
34:50
Speaker 1: While Robbie Robertson seemed to meet the challenges and increased
34:54
Speaker 1: pressure with eagerness and creativity, Richard appeared to wilt under
34:58
Speaker 1: the scrutiny. So let's get into that now. And we
35:01
Speaker 1: know about the frustrations with the rest of the guys
35:03
Speaker 1: and who gets song credit and publishing and all that.
35:05
Speaker 1: But Robbie said he begged Richard to write, and Richard
35:09
Speaker 1: said he was writing, but he didn't like being put
35:11
Speaker 1: on the spot. You talk about the relationship between Robbie
35:15
Speaker 1: and Richard, what was that like prior to the fame
35:18
Speaker 1: and the money coming in, and how did all that
35:20
Speaker 1: affect their relationship?
35:22
Speaker 2: And then see, it's strange because to your point, you know,
35:26
Speaker 2: and I think you probably got this. I'm sure you did.
35:29
Speaker 2: In the book. I tried to stay down the middle
35:31
Speaker 2: when it came to that songwriting stuff because there was.
35:34
Speaker 1: A lot of every author's challenge writing these books. Right, Yes,
35:38
Speaker 1: it's so hard not to get tangled up in that
35:41
Speaker 1: whole mess.
35:42
Speaker 2: Well exactly. And the thing I always come back to
35:44
Speaker 2: is in this Levan didn't write songs. Levon was a
35:49
Speaker 2: master ranger, feel band leader, everything. I can't say enough.
35:55
Speaker 2: Richard wrote songs, I mean authored them on his own,
36:00
Speaker 2: and him and Robbie had a collaboration that Katie's been gone,
36:05
Speaker 2: I mean would be enough, you know, for like to
36:08
Speaker 2: mine that collaboration. I feel the relationship between the two
36:14
Speaker 2: of them. Robbie was a driven guy. They wouldn't have
36:16
Speaker 2: gotten anywhere really without his gumption and without his wanting
36:22
Speaker 2: to talk to managers and businessmen and newspapers like that.
36:26
Speaker 1: In every group, every team needs that. Yeah, he was.
36:31
Speaker 2: That guy, and Levon was like see and I described
36:35
Speaker 2: this in the book. It was like Richard was a
36:37
Speaker 2: salve between two like alpha frictions, do you know what
36:40
Speaker 2: I mean? Like these guys were both powerhouses, Levon and Robbie,
36:43
Speaker 2: and Richard just kind of did his thing. But the relationship,
36:47
Speaker 2: I feel like, first off, you mentioned the pressure of fame.
36:50
Speaker 2: Some people can handle it, some cannot. Richard, going back
36:56
Speaker 2: to how he was and how he treated people, couldn't
36:58
Speaker 2: say no, and I think that damaged him more so
37:04
Speaker 2: than anything was once you get famous, and I'm paraphrasing
37:09
Speaker 2: George Harrison says something along the line is like there's
37:11
Speaker 2: people dusting you off and you're not even dirty. And
37:15
Speaker 2: I feel like Richard, that wasn't a positive thing for him.
37:19
Speaker 2: Not this is outside the band, but like not being
37:22
Speaker 2: able to say no, being given things, being treated a
37:25
Speaker 2: different way, and I feel like Robbie, as we just
37:30
Speaker 2: spoke about, was going this way and Richard was kind
37:33
Speaker 2: of pulling back a little bit.
37:36
Speaker 1: But also his songwriting process was not one it's songs
37:39
Speaker 1: would have to come naturally to Richard. He couldn't sit
37:42
Speaker 1: down and say, Okay, the label wants a record, let's
37:46
Speaker 1: get to work.
37:48
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. And John Simon, the wonderful producer
37:51
Speaker 2: of the band's first two records, mentioned that before the
37:54
Speaker 2: second record, like we need twelve songs, and it's like,
37:57
Speaker 2: that's not how Richard operated. And it's completely truthfully he
38:01
Speaker 2: like you just said, he operated an inspiration and it
38:04
Speaker 2: was easy to come in and have a song and
38:07
Speaker 2: then say Richard, this is your part. Sing this, you know,
38:11
Speaker 2: or come up with a melody here on piano. But
38:14
Speaker 2: nothing was ever quite finished with Richard. And I think
38:17
Speaker 2: if you add in fame, pressure and a problem with alcohol,
38:23
Speaker 2: it did not make for a good mixture at that point.
38:27
Speaker 2: But the again one of those narratives, he was still
38:32
Speaker 2: writing music. I just think he didn't have the confidence
38:36
Speaker 2: to present it to the group. And to be vetted,
38:39
Speaker 2: he was no dummy. He knew that their big songs
38:42
Speaker 2: were sung by Levan and written by Robbie. He knew
38:46
Speaker 2: that and it didn't upset him because he was such
38:47
Speaker 2: a team player. But I think it affected his confidence
38:51
Speaker 2: and shook him up a little.
38:52
Speaker 1: Bit and he self medicated. As far back as I
38:56
Speaker 1: think was he like thirteen years old when he started
38:58
Speaker 1: drinking or what was the age.
39:00
Speaker 2: He was nipping around with friends and they were taking
39:03
Speaker 2: stuff when he was he was a kid. It didn't
39:06
Speaker 2: really become a crutch until after that time magazine. And
39:12
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's the reason. I'm saying from from
39:15
Speaker 2: stage fright on it started to become and I think
39:18
Speaker 2: it was to deal with, obviously, with self confidence, to
39:20
Speaker 2: deal with the popularity and to deal with the pressure
39:24
Speaker 2: of having to create under the spotlight as opposed to
39:28
Speaker 2: going into the basement of Ronnie Hawkins Club and creating.
39:31
Speaker 2: You know, it didn't And it's a contrast. I had
39:35
Speaker 2: trouble with Eric honestly, because he was such a showman
39:38
Speaker 2: in his early days, even while like rock star at
39:42
Speaker 2: small level Stratford, you know, party guy, and to see
39:47
Speaker 2: that diminish over the years, you gotta you have to
39:50
Speaker 2: attribute it to self confidence. I don't think it's as
39:52
Speaker 2: easy to say this guy drank too much, because there's
39:55
Speaker 2: a lot of musicians that drank too much. I really
39:57
Speaker 2: think that that didn't help. But I also that it
40:00
Speaker 2: was just it was a self confidence in holding himself
40:04
Speaker 2: to this standard that wasn't there.
40:06
Speaker 1: Really did he have the same resentment that Levon had
40:09
Speaker 1: towards Robbie? What did he say about all of that?
40:12
Speaker 1: In later years, he didn't want Robbie to produce his
40:15
Speaker 1: solo album. Yes, that's in the book. Yes, so he
40:18
Speaker 1: was still on pretty good terms with him.
40:21
Speaker 2: Well, and it's weird because Robbie post banned and he
40:25
Speaker 2: recorded like Between Trains for the soundtrack song Between Trains,
40:29
Speaker 2: and then he did the best of everything with Tom Petty.
40:33
Speaker 2: He would call Richard in to do these vocals. Robbie knew, yeah,
40:37
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like this is the best singer
40:39
Speaker 2: that I ever worked with. Like he would still get
40:41
Speaker 2: Richard to come in there and contribute to these things.
40:45
Speaker 2: And Richard knew what they had. And I feel like
40:49
Speaker 2: they were both equally at fault for not nurturing that
40:52
Speaker 2: that songwriting partnership. I really do. And I feel like
40:56
Speaker 2: once Robbie decided to not go back after the last vault.
41:01
Speaker 2: And this is me saying, coming up with this, I
41:03
Speaker 2: feel like he felt like he would be going back
41:06
Speaker 2: on what the pomp and circumstance of the last Waltz was.
41:10
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Like, I can't go backwards.
41:12
Speaker 2: He had his own career in film soundtracks, things of
41:15
Speaker 2: that nature, and right until the very end, and Richard,
41:18
Speaker 2: one of Richard's dear friends, told me this. Richard held
41:20
Speaker 2: out hope he wanted to collaborate with Robbie. He knew
41:24
Speaker 2: they had that.
41:25
Speaker 1: That was heartbreaking to read. Yeah, you know, that's that's
41:29
Speaker 1: what he was thinking right up until the end.
41:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's a quote in there that you probably
41:34
Speaker 2: saw that was part of the Woodstock interview that he
41:36
Speaker 2: did on one of the tapes. I had heard the
41:39
Speaker 2: interviewer let it go, and this wasn't transcribed into that.
41:44
Speaker 2: And I'm paraphrasing, but Richard said, you know, they asked
41:47
Speaker 2: about Robbie. Hel was I just I told him we
41:48
Speaker 2: can get a hotel room or something. We don't have
41:50
Speaker 2: to tell anybody, just get together and write a couple
41:52
Speaker 2: of songs. Yeah. Richard laughed about it, but you can
41:55
Speaker 2: tell that he really wanted that to happen. Those songs
41:58
Speaker 2: I mentioned, like between Trains and his actually the Petty song,
42:01
Speaker 2: it was still there, that magic was still there between.
42:04
Speaker 1: Those a great song. I'm a huge Petty fan. Oh
42:08
Speaker 1: love that song. Booked on Rock Podcast. We'll be back
42:12
Speaker 1: after this freeing to take a break. He'll be back. Hey, guys,
42:18
Speaker 1: thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
42:20
Speaker 1: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
42:24
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your support, and make sure
42:26
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42:29
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42:32
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42:45
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Speaker 1: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
42:51
Speaker 1: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
42:54
Speaker 1: to the show. This book answers so much. It fills
42:58
Speaker 1: in a lot of the blanks. There's always that question,
43:01
Speaker 1: why did he do what he did on that night
43:03
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six, you know, March sixth, nineteen eighty six.
43:07
Speaker 1: And I think this answers a lot of it. When
43:09
Speaker 1: the band comes to an end in seventy eight, they
43:14
Speaker 1: reformed in eighty three without Robbie. So in between those
43:16
Speaker 1: handful of years, what's his life like at that point,
43:20
Speaker 1: because it seemed like he was able to get clean
43:22
Speaker 1: and live a pretty low key life and he was
43:25
Speaker 1: doing okay.
43:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, like Richard said, pits and peaks, you know, lots
43:30
Speaker 2: of pits and peaks. And after really after the last
43:34
Speaker 2: Waltz was the worst point. And as we talked about
43:37
Speaker 2: with the Revels, I think the loss of that brotherhood
43:41
Speaker 2: really stung Richard. He would still see those guys, but
43:45
Speaker 2: the greatest joy for him was creating music with his
43:48
Speaker 2: best friends, you know, and he hit the bottle hard.
43:53
Speaker 2: His marriage was disintegrating with Jane. He had two kids
43:57
Speaker 2: that he loved dearly and tried to provide for. But
44:00
Speaker 2: when you're having trouble taking care of yourself, you know,
44:04
Speaker 2: there was a lot of guilt there of being a
44:07
Speaker 2: good dad, and also, you know, as the eighties dawned,
44:11
Speaker 2: not being in a position to take care of them.
44:14
Speaker 2: How he thought he should. So when Arley, who would
44:18
Speaker 2: be his second wife, Richard and Arley moved back. They
44:21
Speaker 2: lived with the Hudsons for a while. Hudson's had a fire.
44:24
Speaker 2: Then they moved back to Woodstock and Richard decided to
44:27
Speaker 2: get clean and he moved into a dupleaque owned by
44:30
Speaker 2: Albert Grossman, who was a great advocate for Richard, you know,
44:34
Speaker 2: over the years. And Gabe brought a piano from Bearsville
44:36
Speaker 2: put it in the apartment so Richard could write songs.
44:39
Speaker 2: And Richard says, I'm gonna quit drinking, and he did,
44:42
Speaker 2: and it almost killed him. He went to his body,
44:45
Speaker 2: went to shock.
44:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're supposed to wean off of that.
44:47
Speaker 2: When you're yeah, and if you're somebody drinking like he
44:51
Speaker 2: drank at that point. So that really had a major,
44:56
Speaker 2: like would anybody, major effect on Richard. But he's stuck
44:59
Speaker 2: to it and he did not drink, and he was clean,
45:03
Speaker 2: not of everything, but he was not abusing alcohol. And
45:07
Speaker 2: he went back and forth. So for those years he
45:10
Speaker 2: was busy. He worked Bonnie Rait on her album, He
45:15
Speaker 2: did Willie Nelson track I Want of Willie Nelson's albums.
45:18
Speaker 2: He did a soundtrack for the in documentary Kent State,
45:22
Speaker 2: added some piano there did the Robbie stuff we talked about.
45:25
Speaker 2: So he was keeping busy and this whole time he
45:29
Speaker 2: was trying to get something going. And I have there's
45:32
Speaker 2: a dated cassette of Richard from June of nineteen eighty
45:37
Speaker 2: going into Bearsville and recording Breaking New Ground, which was
45:43
Speaker 2: a co write with Goffin and King. Song never came out,
45:46
Speaker 2: but Richard had these changes. He held onto that song
45:51
Speaker 2: like he knew he had it, he knew he had
45:53
Speaker 2: something special. And finally later a few years downline eighty five,
45:57
Speaker 2: he collaborated on words with Jerry Goffin on the phone
46:02
Speaker 2: and put this song together. So basically, by the time
46:06
Speaker 2: the band got together reunited eighty three to forty five,
46:10
Speaker 2: he had collected a good amount of songs, many without words,
46:15
Speaker 2: but he had he was working.
46:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is the in the book there's him talking
46:19
Speaker 1: about that like I'm starting to feel like I'm enjoying
46:22
Speaker 1: myself again, like I'm enjoying music. My creative spark is
46:25
Speaker 1: there again, because it wasn't for a while.
46:27
Speaker 2: And that's exactly it. And Richard was very candid in
46:30
Speaker 2: you know, in that Woodstock interview, which there's not many
46:33
Speaker 2: interviews with him, so it's really it was good to
46:35
Speaker 2: mine and I was glad I was able to listen
46:37
Speaker 2: to the whole thing. And he was very candidate the
46:40
Speaker 2: last Walltzy wasn't in great shape. That he had problems,
46:44
Speaker 2: you know, but he was working his way through them,
46:47
Speaker 2: you know, just a very honest, human interview. And that's
46:51
Speaker 2: that is really one of the sadder parts of the
46:54
Speaker 2: stories that he had. He was looking for an avenue
46:57
Speaker 2: to get this stuff out of him.
46:59
Speaker 1: That's what made me surprise to hear about how things
47:03
Speaker 1: ended reading that, because I thought, well, Okay, he's doing good.
47:07
Speaker 1: And then he rejoins the band in nineteen eighty three.
47:09
Speaker 1: It's without Robbie, and I'm thinking, well, maybe without the
47:12
Speaker 1: pressure from Robbie, maybe he's enjoying himself more. But he
47:16
Speaker 1: started feeling pressure again in nineteen eighty four. According to
47:20
Speaker 1: the book.
47:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he said there were I don't know exactly
47:24
Speaker 2: what these were, but he mentions opportunities that had passed
47:27
Speaker 2: them by. And you know what I think is telling
47:31
Speaker 2: is that again he had songs, and these are documented
47:35
Speaker 2: songs because he ended up playing them at solo shows.
47:38
Speaker 2: He had songs he was working on, and he didn't
47:41
Speaker 2: when him and Rick did solo shows, he didn't play him.
47:44
Speaker 2: When the band went in to record an album in
47:46
Speaker 2: eighty five, he didn't present those originals.
47:50
Speaker 1: You know.
47:51
Speaker 2: He did She Knows cover, which the band ended up
47:54
Speaker 2: releasing after Richard passed Country Boy, like he would lean
47:59
Speaker 2: back doing amazing versions of these songs. He is an interpreter.
48:04
Speaker 2: But I always wondered, and it always brings me back
48:06
Speaker 2: full circle to like he just didn't have He needed
48:10
Speaker 2: that collaborator or someone to say, these are great songs.
48:13
Speaker 2: Do you want me to add words to these? What
48:15
Speaker 2: can we do for this? And I truly believe that
48:19
Speaker 2: that Eric Clapton would have been that guy for him.
48:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, you quote him in the book, some very insightful
48:27
Speaker 1: comments from Clapton.
48:29
Speaker 2: He really loved Richard. He really loved Richard.
48:32
Speaker 1: And he could relate to Richard's struggles parallel paths.
48:36
Speaker 2: Yeah really, And the only difference was Eric made it right.
48:41
Speaker 2: I mean, it was so close, and I think that
48:45
Speaker 2: they would have They were going to try to get
48:47
Speaker 2: something together later on, but I mean, you know, and
48:52
Speaker 2: the thing that I just if Richard could have held
48:54
Speaker 2: on everything that they were doing, whether it was Levon
48:57
Speaker 2: and Rick or Rick and Richard, the Living Room Show
49:00
Speaker 2: or the Barn later on down the line, or you know,
49:03
Speaker 2: an MTV Unplugged, he would have flourished in that.
49:07
Speaker 1: And the music that they made. The albums they put
49:10
Speaker 1: out post Robbie Days, some really good stuff on.
49:13
Speaker 2: There, exactly. And can you imagine if Richie had the
49:16
Speaker 2: confidence to give some originals, you know, they wouldn't have
49:19
Speaker 2: to outsource those writers, you know, And no disrespect any
49:22
Speaker 2: of those writers. There are some great songs, and they
49:24
Speaker 2: mind Dylan and you know, Jules Sheer and great songs.
49:28
Speaker 2: But I mean, if you could have just held on,
49:30
Speaker 2: the eighties were hard on a lot of those guys
49:33
Speaker 2: and girls, and if you would have held on and
49:35
Speaker 2: come around, I feel like he would have flourished. You know.
49:38
Speaker 2: It was just like a few years.
49:41
Speaker 1: Booked on Rock Podcasts will be back after this patience boys,
49:45
Speaker 1: all good things to those who wait. Find the bookdown
49:52
Speaker 1: Rock website at booked on Rock dot com. There you
49:56
Speaker 1: can find all the back episodes of the show. Lait
49:58
Speaker 1: this episode in video and on, plus a video highlight
50:01
Speaker 1: and a link to our YouTube channel. Links to all
50:03
Speaker 1: of the platforms where he can listen to the podcast,
50:06
Speaker 1: plus all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
50:11
Speaker 1: and x. Also check out the Booked on Rock blog,
50:14
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50:18
Speaker 1: hot rock book releases, and before you go, check out
50:20
Speaker 1: the Booked on Rock online store. Pick up some booked
50:23
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50:28
Speaker 1: You mentioned he was struggling with his place as a father.
50:30
Speaker 1: He kind of felt like because he couldn't take care
50:32
Speaker 1: of himself, he was questioning himself as a father. So
50:36
Speaker 1: I feel like that had a lot to do with
50:38
Speaker 1: that decision he made on that night in nineteen eighty six.
50:40
Speaker 1: But also he was bummed at they were playing smaller venues, right,
50:42
Speaker 1: That was he wasn't happy about that. That was kind
50:45
Speaker 1: of like why do we put It's shocking for us
50:49
Speaker 1: as fans to even think about that. I know Robbie
50:52
Speaker 1: wasn't there, but they were playing some pretty small places,
50:55
Speaker 1: weren't they.
50:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, to your point, Eric, part of
50:59
Speaker 2: it was he had he had paid his dues.
51:04
Speaker 1: You know, like now he's going back to having to
51:06
Speaker 1: play those places.
51:08
Speaker 2: And again we go back to the self confidence in
51:11
Speaker 2: the issues that he had personally about his music. And
51:18
Speaker 2: you know, you work twenty years to get to this
51:20
Speaker 2: point you're playing. I'm just using this as you're playing
51:23
Speaker 2: Wembley's Stadium. You're on a beautiful grand piano, and now
51:28
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're playing the cheek to cheek
51:31
Speaker 2: Lounge on a keyboard that doesn't work, that's sometimes supplied
51:36
Speaker 2: by the venue. And it's like, I mean, it's a hit.
51:40
Speaker 2: It's hard to stay up, you know. And then to
51:43
Speaker 2: have crappy equipment, crappy venues, people sliding drinks by the
51:47
Speaker 2: piano player or drink it was a recipe for disaster.
51:51
Speaker 2: And then, as you said, with the guilt, a divorce, addiction,
51:58
Speaker 2: you take it all together and it was too much
52:00
Speaker 2: for a sensitive and.
52:02
Speaker 1: The quote he said, boy that's haunting is right at
52:04
Speaker 1: the front of the book. If I take another drink again,
52:08
Speaker 1: I'm done, Like you put that much pressure on himself
52:12
Speaker 1: just for that, Like, yeah, if I get back on
52:14
Speaker 1: that bottle again and I'm done, my life's done. I'm
52:18
Speaker 1: over basically saying I'm gonna take my life. I mean,
52:21
Speaker 1: I think that's what that's what really what happened March
52:24
Speaker 1: sixth of nineteen eighty six, and just mentioned Cheek the
52:26
Speaker 1: Cheek Lounge. That's where he was playing in Winter Park,
52:29
Speaker 1: Florida on that night. And there's a story that Levon
52:32
Speaker 1: has told that Richard went to his room after the
52:35
Speaker 1: show and seemed to be in quote unquote decent spirits.
52:39
Speaker 1: That's Levan's limited explanation or description of his mood that night.
52:45
Speaker 1: What happened after he leaves Levan's room.
52:49
Speaker 2: When he went back Arly, his wife was there in
52:53
Speaker 2: the room and she said that Richard was agitated. And
53:00
Speaker 2: I think earlier in the day he'd been agitated where
53:03
Speaker 2: he made the comment where he says, I'm never gonna
53:05
Speaker 2: f and play the shape I'm in again, and I
53:08
Speaker 2: think it hit It was all coming to a head.
53:11
Speaker 2: And what we neglected to mention is Albert Grossman had
53:13
Speaker 2: passed away, so I feel like he had lost another advocate,
53:17
Speaker 2: you know, another father figure. I think that venue and
53:23
Speaker 2: one of the things I thought was very telling was
53:25
Speaker 2: there was a newspaper article where somebody saw Richard after
53:28
Speaker 2: the show that night and said, are we gonna Are
53:31
Speaker 2: we gonna get a new album? And Richard pretty much said,
53:34
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, I don't know. A few
53:36
Speaker 2: weeks before, a month or two ago or before that,
53:39
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, he was talking to a Strafford
53:41
Speaker 2: paper or something. He's like, we got a new album
53:43
Speaker 2: in the can. You're gonna get new band music. So
53:45
Speaker 2: something shook free there where he had lost hope in
53:50
Speaker 2: that where he had lost hope in himself. I mean,
53:54
Speaker 2: obviously that's exactly what happened, is he finally lost hope
53:58
Speaker 2: in himself, which is where do you go from there?
54:00
Speaker 1: At that Yeah, he had his wife there, In fact,
54:04
Speaker 1: they fell asleep, Yeah, and he got up, went into
54:08
Speaker 1: the bathroom, took the belt off, and just terrible to
54:13
Speaker 1: think what was what was going through his mind at
54:15
Speaker 1: that point. And you just the danger was leaving him alone. Yeah, right,
54:19
Speaker 1: that was the thing. You leave him alone to his thoughts.
54:22
Speaker 1: That was from like early childhood days. They would say
54:24
Speaker 1: that too, right, leave him alone with his thoughts. Then
54:28
Speaker 1: the dark thoughts start to come in and take over.
54:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we've dug into that. And that
54:35
Speaker 2: was very insightful as you're talking about in the early
54:38
Speaker 2: stuff and when he was on the road and writing
54:40
Speaker 2: home to his mom. Yes, you know, Richard needed that
54:45
Speaker 2: that environment of nurturing. Again, I feel like that's when
54:49
Speaker 2: he was at his greatest and when he felt or
54:51
Speaker 2: had those moments, like anybody to dwell on the things
54:54
Speaker 2: that weren't working in his life, it overtook him. You know.
54:58
Speaker 2: Levan has said it a number of times. Richard was
55:00
Speaker 2: the kind of guy who felt things more deeply than
55:02
Speaker 2: anybody that he ever knew. And I just think that
55:06
Speaker 2: night there was a lot that came.
55:08
Speaker 1: Down hard on him, which is why his vocals were
55:11
Speaker 1: so beautiful and powerful, because it was all coming out. Yes,
55:16
Speaker 1: is there everything that was inside him coming out? We're
55:18
Speaker 1: just forty two years old. Yeah, what an amazing body
55:22
Speaker 1: work he leaves behind. What do you hope people will
55:24
Speaker 1: remember most about Richard Manuel? We hope people will get
55:27
Speaker 1: out of this book.
55:28
Speaker 2: Well, First, that the band, obviously, as we've talked about,
55:31
Speaker 2: were such an important part of rock music and a
55:36
Speaker 2: large scale and I tried to explain that aspect of them,
55:41
Speaker 2: you know, maybe not as much as like popular fame,
55:46
Speaker 2: but they're contemporaries. George Harrison, Eric Clapton, Roger Waters, these
55:51
Speaker 2: guys all changed what they were doing because of the band.
55:56
Speaker 2: You know, you look at music from Big Pink, and
55:58
Speaker 2: you look at what came after it. Psychdella went out
56:01
Speaker 2: the window, and now you've got the white album Beggars Banquet.
56:04
Speaker 1: You know, thing was fascinating me. Roger Water saying that, yeah, Pink, Floyd.
56:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, Richard Thompson, so many guys like this album. Well,
56:13
Speaker 2: Big Pink was so vital. And then the second I mean,
56:15
Speaker 2: everything they did, but Richard's part in that I felt
56:21
Speaker 2: was in danger of getting lost, and I really just
56:24
Speaker 2: wanted to focus in a meaningful way on his contributions.
56:28
Speaker 2: I just felt, because of all the reasons we've talked
56:31
Speaker 2: about tonight, of why Richard struggled with self confidence and
56:35
Speaker 2: his addictions and things of that nature, I really wanted
56:38
Speaker 2: to say, hey, there's a lot more to this guy.
56:41
Speaker 2: If you feel the band is one of the most
56:43
Speaker 2: vital and important things that happen in the history of rock,
56:45
Speaker 2: then you gotta point to this guy. You have to
56:49
Speaker 2: talk about him. And I really hope that that people
56:55
Speaker 2: not just his voice, but killer drummer, killer slide tard point.
57:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't even talk about that.
57:01
Speaker 2: We even talk about the drum and and you know.
57:04
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. You know, when Levon left, Richard
57:06
Speaker 2: jumped on the kit and it was one of those
57:08
Speaker 2: things where like we didn't even know he played drums.
57:11
Speaker 2: His friends in Stratford are like, yeah, he'd need bang
57:13
Speaker 2: around a little bit. But like all of a sudden, like,
57:16
Speaker 2: oh my god, Richard's a drummer and a great one.
57:19
Speaker 1: Which tells you he could have done an entire album
57:22
Speaker 1: on his own if he wanted.
57:23
Speaker 2: And and yeah, and that's kind of what we were
57:25
Speaker 2: talking about, you know, if he had made it past
57:28
Speaker 2: that certain point that was the lo fi en vogue
57:33
Speaker 2: home studio stuff, you know, and he was doing it,
57:36
Speaker 2: had the ability to do that. I just hope the
57:40
Speaker 2: focus on his musical accomplishments, and like I said, you
57:44
Speaker 2: have to talk about certain things, but I feel like
57:46
Speaker 2: by trying to distill it down to just what his
57:48
Speaker 2: contributions were, what were great about his abilities and his musicality,
57:52
Speaker 2: I hope people get a different picture of Richard, and
57:55
Speaker 2: I think he gets, for lack of a better term,
57:57
Speaker 2: some respect on his name. You know.
57:59
Speaker 1: Going forward, Richard Manuel is life and music from the
58:02
Speaker 1: Hawks and Bob Dylan to the band. It is coming
58:05
Speaker 1: out on June seventeenth, but people can pre order this
58:08
Speaker 1: through Shift for Books dot com.
58:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also up for pre order on Amazon.
58:12
Speaker 1: Amazon, the Barnes and Noble, yep.
58:15
Speaker 2: Brick and Mortar. You can go to my website too
58:18
Speaker 2: if you want to hear about events or any press
58:22
Speaker 2: that's coming out for the book. I kind of put
58:23
Speaker 2: a repository there on my website, which is, oh, talk
58:27
Speaker 2: from the Rockroom dot com.
58:29
Speaker 1: Talk from the Rockroom dot com. So that's really the
58:32
Speaker 1: best place to go if people want to reach you,
58:33
Speaker 1: contact you.
58:35
Speaker 2: Yes, I love to talk about Richard or any kind
58:38
Speaker 2: of music. So yeah, thank you.
58:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could talk to you all night about Richard Manuel.
58:43
Speaker 1: So I really appreciate you spending the time to talk
58:46
Speaker 1: to me about this book. It's fantastic. Congratulations and the band.
58:49
Speaker 1: Fans of the band, like I have a friend of
58:51
Speaker 1: mine who's a huge fan of the band, and he
58:53
Speaker 1: already knew this book was coming out months ago. He
58:55
Speaker 1: had heard about it, and I said, let me see
58:57
Speaker 1: if I can get him on. Man, I'm gonna try.
59:00
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. Here are I love talking
59:03
Speaker 2: about it anytime? Seriously. It's like now that it's actually happening.
59:07
Speaker 2: It's just a relief to be able to share this
59:09
Speaker 2: stuff and talk about Richard. I love it.
59:11
Speaker 1: And boy, wouldn't it be great to have a book
59:13
Speaker 1: on Danko and Garth And because we've gotten books on Levon,
59:17
Speaker 1: we've got a book on Robbie.
59:19
Speaker 2: Yep. It would be nice to get these guys all
59:23
Speaker 2: their due. You know, they all got fantastic stories.
59:26
Speaker 1: Steven Lewis, thanks.
59:28
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. That's it. It's
59:41
Speaker 2: in the books.