Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 150: Matthew Lloyd - From Olympic Cyclist to Recovery Mentor

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150: Matthew Lloyd - From Olympic Cyclist to Recovery Mentor · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: from around this point.
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You then faced, I guess, some rather significant injuries, back injuries, breaks, I guess.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: How did you cope physically and mentally with those setbacks and that fight to get back to that same sense or feeling that you had at the Giro d'Italia?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Well, this was the definite turning point for me Following the Tour de France in 2010,.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: I was really physiologically and psychologically spent and didn't really allow myself the time to unwind.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: And following that time, in December, there was an incident where I did fall and have some minor damage to my brain and broke my shoulder.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Matty Lloyd listen.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on the podcast today, looking forward to our conversation.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Yes thank you very much, ryan.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, a mind, to be with you this morning.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Great and listen.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: I know we've been chatting before and really just trying to get an understanding of your career, your transition and and sort of what you have sort of worked through as well, and I think that's going to provide some interesting insight for for those listening.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: You know joining us today, so thanks in advance for for certainly being open, not a problem at all.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Well, let's kick in.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: What I do like to do is just get that lay of the land, so I have to.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: I just ask can you tell us who you are, give us that infomercial about who you are and what you're up to nowadays?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously name's Matthew Lloyd.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I was a member of the 2008 Olympic road cycling team for Australia, national champion 2008 as well, winner of the Tour of Italy's mountain climbers classification in 2010, tour de France rider and basically in a cycling sense that encapsulates all of my greatest achievements, and the journey itself unfolded basically from then on.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what drew you to cycling in the first place?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I suppose, an intrinsic sense of freedom that I had from being a youngster.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: For a lot of the time, my brother and I, my close or best friends and I would not just be shredding the urban jungle around Bayside Victoria, but taking our bikes out to Mount Buller and Mansfield and being with the nature, which was cool because it not only gave that sense of time and space and freedom, but it was also a really cool way to get yourself out there.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: And I suppose that continued throughout my life, not even in a competitive sense, but just an attachment with, yeah, the environment and the land.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it actually sounds quite magical.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: It's making me think of uh, of sort of the way you describe it sort of coming of age movies that we probably grew up watching back in the 80s and 90s corny, as that is, it's uh, it's quite true well, that's good, and so you know you mentioned there with your brother, so were you quite a, a sporty family, an outdoorsy family.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: My father was a world-class yachtsman and from a young age, my brother and I and mother ended up travelling around the world, living in the US for an extended period of time.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: My dad was part of the America's Cup team for Australia in 1991 and had basically races in all the key yachting destinations throughout the world, including Australia, in which he won the Sydney to Hobart three times.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: So that was definitely a huge component to my upbringing and something that I did look up to then and I still do now.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Well, that's quite amazing really.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: You know, with a father being a yachtsman like that, did you get to travel, did you sort of go with him, or is it something where he disappears for a period?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for the most part the bigger international amounts of time we spent as a family.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: We'd move to, say, hawaii for different yachting races in which he was racing for a Japanese-owned yacht over there and then over to San Diego in the US again for the America's Cup.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Time Ended up going to basically primary school in the US for quite a while and otherwise throughout Europe and that sort of thing as well.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: So it was always on the move.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: But then he'd always have time periods in which he had to go and race with a crew in any destination that he was called to.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: So there was that component as well.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I suppose, then, coming back to you and this cycling journey, because clearly you were getting to see the world and travel at the same time when did cycling become for you something where you thought, hey, hold on, there's talent, here there's an opportunity to do something.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess the main sort of turning point for me was around 2002, uh, in which I was racing, I think, the gatorade series for under 23 triathlon in victoria and some coaches noticed that my swim leg within the triathlon was almost appalling.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: It was like watching a disabled porpoise trying to, you know, fail at catching fish.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: But on the bike it always just go a lot faster than basically anyone else would see possible and then be able to just cruise the run and still win the race or come on the podium.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And this happened so frequently that I ended up winning the series.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: And I spoke then to Kerry Hall, who was Cathy Watt's coach, living locally in Bayside, and he said the indications here are that you should by all means take it to road cycling because you're wasting your time in triathlon.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: So I did and from then on it sort of went through the stages of racing, local criteriums and local road races, in which I started to really get an idea of how racing was on the road in Victoria at those stages, and then started to take it interstate and ended up targeting specifically the National Road Series where the only really mountainous stage was a stage that finished on the top of Mount Baw, baw and miraculously I won a raffle that particular year.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: So instead of riding around on my 10 kilo can't remember the brand name bike it was but I bought a Trek Madone, which is a model that Lance Armstrong had won the Tour de France on.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: So I just sort of made a calculation in my head I'll buy one of those and simultaneously went on to win that stage of the Herald Sun Tour, and after that point in time you sort of get recognized.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: And yeah, by that point I had communication with some semi-professional teams and whatnot.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Uh, in france, and the next year I was over there racing in a whole mixed bag of various different races, both mountainous and and and cobbled and flat and everything.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: So, yeah it was, it was incredibly fast, but I think, for for my frame of mind at that point in time, it was new and adventurous and something cool to do.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that does sound pretty cool, even just listening to you there as well.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: That sort of journey, targeting races, thinking about where you could become or what you could become.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: And so for you, at that time, what dream did you start to have?
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I suppose all the dreams started to take place, I suppose with the greater sense of the sport and what it had meant to me, because I still held dear all those elements that I had from when I was a lot younger, that sense of pure freedom, and because it came with objectives, whether they were races that involved more climbing or target points that I could see myself doing well in.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: There was a purpose to it and, just by happenstance, the places that I was doing these races in were the exact same races in which I could watch the Tour de France firsthand and speak to people who were part of the greater organization.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: So it all fit into place quite well and I was just on it for the ride.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: You know you talk about that ride.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: In navigating that journey to climb up the ranks, what guidance or management did you have to support you?
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I think from a greater sense.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Initially, programming-wise, I still stuck by what I had picked up from Kerry Hall a lot of the strength, endurance stuff, and, being from a pure sprinting background, he was able to influence my way of riding, in which he'd train Cathy Watt in the road discipline.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: So the endurance side of things was also taken care of.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: But then, as well as that, having Josh Wilson on my team at that point in time in southern France, his father, michael Wilson, was a fantastic ex-professional professional and he would come and visit us and actually go on some rides with us and provide insights into climbing, specifically because that was his, that was his jam, and smaller details like that were were sort of were crucial because at that point in time you sort of you know you're clutching at any marginal advantage.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: You can get on a set of competitors who have been brought up in this sport and know every single detail about it.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: So, interestingly enough, yeah, I was able to absorb all that knowledge and just do the best that I could with it and fortunately it did yield some success.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, it did yield some success.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess it did.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: I'm interested then, because here you know, you're talking about that emerging success coming through Academically, work-wise.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: How were you?
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: What were the importance?
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: How were you funding your life at this point?
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: At this point in time I had been working I'd actually been working the local cinemas in Bayside, brighton for about two years before heading over to Europe and in reality when I got there it was pretty much a single room apartment.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Fortunately, the food in france is is quite it's quite all right.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's got a good, a good standard yeah, and I was able to, you know, be of the fortunate position in which the people who were part of the team's organization were in the position to take care of me in that regard and travel.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Things like that were fortunately taken care of by the team and I was massively supported by my family.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: So had I not had those, you know, advantages, it would have been a real challenge yeah, did you have an alternative?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: because the thing about the thing about cycling is you, you really, I guess, with actually with all sport you really have to give it your all, but with cycling you are, I guess.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: One of my friends the way he described it to me is you spend a lot of your career not winning.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: You're part of the team, your job isn't to win, your job is to graft, to grind, and you know you're putting in all of that, I suppose, effort.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm interested in that psyche.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: But I just wanted to know if you were not going to be a cyclist at that point.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Did you have an alternative plan?
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Did you have another desire or wish?
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: yeah, definitely, yeah, definitely.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Prior to my time starting overseas, I'd been doing a course or a degree in criminal justice and psychology and at that point in time, for one reason or another, the uptake of criminal investigation internationally was huge because it was close to the September 11th incidences and I was intrigued by that and had always been interested by criminal psychology.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: So, being in the final terms of that degree, it was definitely something that I had avenues to go down, had the quick succession of the cycling career not taken off in the direction that it did.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And even to this day, some of the things that I'm still interested by tend to fall within the same categories of interest.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Might you say so, yeah, yeah, interesting.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: We'll probably certainly loop back and understand a bit of that.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: So I'm I'm now getting this sense of you know, great, you had this other interest.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: So cycling, you know, really was this opportunity to follow your passion and and pursue that.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: So in those early days, certainly overseas, as one of the team riders.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, what was that?
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, actually, because I have no idea.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I've really only recently got in, I say relatively recently got into cycling, so what was it like for you?
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: To be honest, it was magic because every element of it was fresh and new and exciting.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Because, when looking at it from a general perspective and I've noted this to other people more recently than not the consciousness in my looking at it was like the pre-conscious phase of everything being worthwhile because it's fresh and new.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Everything's a great challenge and something to overcome, and every experience is valuable because you're always learning something.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And then you couple that with the destinations that you've never seen before or never imagined, seeing the new people that you're meeting and all the achievements that they've been able to overcome.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: So for me, it was just a magical place to be in and I was just, you know, getting amongst it.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, and so, you know, you opened up a little bit on some of those highs of your career and, like you say even this, you know, magical career, which I think when we ask many athletes, you know throughout throughout the show, those early years are typically are wonderful, right, you know, it's the best time of your life.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: You're doing living that passion when you think of, well, actually, what was it like then, becoming Australian champion and indeed representing Australia at the Beijing Olympics?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the interesting thing with the Australian championships was that I'd almost gotten to the point in which my training program and my lifestyle was at a place where I was able to visualize the event before it took place the way that it did, which sounds kind of strange.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: But looking back into the, into the neuroscientific standpoint of things, that visualization that I was able to do beforehand on countless occasions probably allowed me to put myself in the place that I ended up being in at that point in time in the reality.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: So for me it didn't come as a surprise.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: It was just part of what I was doing at that point in time.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Did you see it as a surprise?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: It was just part of what I was doing at that point in time.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Did you see it as a success?
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Then I did, and I guess the way that I looked at it then was something that I should have been capable of doing, and I did do it.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I suppose an objective point of view you could say it's just ticking a box, but from the subjective point of view you could say it's just ticking a box, but from the subjective point of view it's a huge elation and just a fantastic accomplishment.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I guess then, from building from that attending the Olympics or representing your country at the Olympics, how did that feel, from that career trajectory, box ticking versus that enjoyment factor, that ability to pause and enjoy, it is that enjoyment factor, that ability to pause and enjoy it.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Well, I suppose the interesting dynamic for the Olympics is it is simply that it's the Olympics and that sense of connection with your country is potentially only done through that event in itself.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And whether or not that's brought on from an internal perspective or whether it's brought on through the way in which we're brought up as children in each country, I think it's quite a special thing.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: But as far as the racing's concerned, I pretty much took it as any other race, with all the other world tour candidates who were very much within the same potential to win on that particular occasion, which is sort of a strange way to look at it, but I suppose it's the way sport is yeah, but what's interesting is it sounds like at the Olympics.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: there, you felt you were representing your country.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: However, in the normal I'm saying the typical season or the typical tours it sounds like you weren't representing your country, but you were representing your team.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, and with, I suppose with 2008 was quite different.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Having won the national championships and you have to wear the Australian colours the whole year, there's a certain element of expectation and, fortunately, me, what it was worth at that point in time.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: My performances throughout a lot of the races were of a good standard and and I felt proud of my jersey and what that brought to it.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: But I'm quite sure that it wasn't the jersey that was speaking to me.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: It was, you know, the intrinsic sense of who I was as a person and also the you know the role that I had to play within the team itself.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant okay, one of the one of the, certainly one of the highs for you was in the Giro d'Italia.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I think what we say in English, the Grand Tour of Italy.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what we say.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: We just say Giro d'Italia, don't we?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to make sure I'm not being some sort of fancy European.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: That's all good In that way, but you were the first Australian to win that King of Mountains classification, and when you goal, from the moment I'd become professional purely because of I suppose you'd call it the romance with climbing in Italy, because there's a certain characteristic to the roads there, to the passion, to a sense of history attached with all of the major climbs, and you can feel that in the community it's not just a race, it's part of the fabric of the culture, and when you're a rider in that element and you feel that intrinsic sense of belonging to me, it brought something special.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: So to be able to go out and do that as an objective and also to do it in a way that was even for me quite profound, was a huge moment and something that I could only explain by saying I was just in a different universe.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, it sort of spoke to me about often being in the zone and having a different mindset, but for that race in itself I'd found a different module somehow and and it was just, uh, it was just a phenomenal experience yeah, you found that flow and everything aligned made it extra special in many, in many respects and I suppose at that point you, you know, because you did so retrospectively, you were able to see it.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: You know, as you look back at that actual time, to what extent did you see that as really well, this is merely a platform on to whatever's next, whatever's you know going to follow would be more stage wins, more jersey wins, you know, and sort of propel your career in that way.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Was that kind of the sense you had?
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: yeah, definitely.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I think at that point in time, given reference to, you know the leverage that that can give someone, or gave myself.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: In an immediate sense, there's a tendency to to just believe or know that the possibilities are out there.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: So, in in contrast to many races where you finish and questions are raised about potential of performance and is my output really good enough to match it at the top level, when instances occur as they did at that Giro, it really takes the pressure off and you allow yourself the space to explore.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look from around this point, you then faced, I guess, some rather significant injuries.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: You know, back injuries breaks, I guess.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: How did you cope physically and sort of mentally with those setbacks and that fight to get back to that same sense or feeling that you had at the Giro d'Italia?
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Well, this was a definite turning point for me Following the Tour de France in 2010,.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I was really physiologically and psychologically spent and didn't really allow myself the time to unwind.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And following that time, in December, there was an incident where I did fall and have some minor damage to my brain and broke my shoulder.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, from that point in time, the racing program back in Europe was to kick in shortly after February had finished and March had started, and my stubborn set of thinking thought to myself well, I can definitely manage this by myself in trying to come back too early, and it became a non-user-friendly environment, so to speak, where I basically wasn't able to operate or function in a normal set of living standards or behaviors that I'd see fit, because I'd basically been attempting to hold up a shield to the discomfort I was in, but the shield got too heavy and that meant that I'd finish time throughout general training or trying to get back into form and it just wouldn't happen.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: What I was, in fact, trying to do was replicate the steps that I'd taken to be in the form I had had the previous year, to be competitive and to win races, but the body wasn't able to agree with me and I wasn't really doing things to the body that would have made it possible in the first place.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: You talk about a shield.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: You talk about that.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: That shield was it to protect or what were you trying to protect with the shield?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I suppose, in essence and the reality is, I was placing the shield up through the fear, the fear that I wouldn't be capable to perform the way that I had previously and in a world which I knew to be cutthroat and I knew to be performance-based.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Because it has to be that way.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: If I wasn't able to do the things that I was there to do, I had to try and hide behind this mask of everything will be just fine and I'll be back in a couple of weeks, Whereas in fact, that wasn't going to be possible.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and so what was that impact?
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I guess medium term, long term, what was the impact on you physically and mentally?
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Well, I suppose the main impact was probably the psychological impact, having to accept the fact that, you know, my team definitely couldn't endorse someone who was injured and not displaying the characteristics of someone who was going to be back in action, at least within the immediate sense, and also, I think, secondarily to that, living in a place which was so driven by the fact that everything I was done was done on a template of the racing season, of the training regimen and template.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: I hadn't seen any other ways to approach things other than those parameters previously.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: So the time period in which I did take to reflect in that time was nothing really valuable and, looking back at it retrospectively, ended up being quite a dark period.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Only through the assistance of my previous director, he was able to link me up with my then manager at the time and facilitate movement into a different world tour team for the start of the next year.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: So that provided me the avenue to re-establish myself in a reasonable timeframe.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And the interesting thing about it was that, while given that new template and new lease of life, I suppose what I did was I immediately went into the process of replicating what I did do before the Giro to get myself in top condition before the Australian Championships and at the start of the next season.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: I ended up coming second in those championships to Simon Gerrans, to Simon Gerrans.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And the following week I crashed the Tour Down Under and slipped immediately back into a cycle of negativity because all the old injuries that I'd done to myself were broken again and all the same habits that I'd had the year beforehand, that I just magically thought I'd got away with, came back with just as much ferocity as I did the year before.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: So that involved you know things that you know athletes tend to become really vulnerable to and that you know.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: That did involve, you know drinking way too much and you know, when you live in a world in which you're so used to dealing with you know high pain thresholds and whatnot the extremities that you'll go to, particularly when the body itself is broken, can be quite ridiculous and extremely dangerous.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, can be quite ridiculous and extremely dangerous.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and during that period for you, you know, and that's a really, you know, it's a dark period You're recognising these habits, these negative habits, negative thoughts coming back In many respects.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I suppose I'm trying to understand how did you cope?
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: And I suppose I should say were you coping?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't think I was coping at all.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: What I did do extremely well is tell myself that I was coping.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I was actually so good at it that I had other people believing in my capabilities to cope with it.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: What was at stake for you?
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I mean this coping mechanism.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: What was at stake for you?
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: What were you fighting for?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: At that point in time, I was fighting for my own sense of strength, or my own internal sense of who I was as a person.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And looking back at that now, what would have been stronger would have been to put out my hand and say I'm not dealing with this at all, can you help me?
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: But I was too stubborn for that, and the most interesting part to it was that this wasn't the last time in which the same pattern unfolded again.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot to be said through pattern recognition and, having done it to myself, it's interesting to look back at it and really pick it apart.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, during this phase, to what extent did you think retirement you know athletic retirement was on the cards.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: I really don't think in this point.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: It came across to me only because, having had all the success only a year and a half beforehand, and then getting myself back into a position to be, you know, second in the national championships, and then have a mishap happen again and downplay it like that, I thought to myself oh yeah, I really should be able to turn this around and get back into it if I really really commit myself, which to the unexperienced person or, looking back at it as myself at the time being, I'd say you're crazy.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: What are you thinking to yourself?
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Look, there's a wide world out there waiting for you.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Um, all you're going to do now is, uh, potentially damage yourself, all those around you.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Um, that just didn't enter the mindset.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: And uh, and yeah, um, Right, and so what happened next then?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: How did you?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: You know you have this fixation.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: You're staying as the athlete.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: It's not time to leave.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: How did things unfold?
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: having sort of well.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I finished the 2013 team work with Lampre at the end of the season and during that time I'd had a number of crashes.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: The biggest one was the Tour de France, breaking my elbow again and managed to get back to Australia.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Get back to Australia and thought to myself well, you know, I'll put myself onto the market and see what comes about.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: This time period led to some change and led me to the United States racing with Team Jelly Belly, based out of California, california, and during that time, my condition was average, to say the best.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I I wasn't really performing it at any levels that would be suggestive to that of a world tour cyclist and, to be honest, I think people were asking questions.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: You know asking questions.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: You know why change continents, for have issues been so great over the other side that you had to change out of compulsion or was this a strategic move?
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: And all of those things were definitely not just on my mind, but on the mind of others as well.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So that was basically from the start of 2014.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: People were asking questions about you and that move again overseas and you know for you.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Well, perhaps as you look back, did that feel like it was, you know, the last attempt on.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: You know another shot at saying I can get back to my best.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, because I wasn't going to give up.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I wasn't going to give up.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: I was so internally, intrinsically stubborn that I had the capabilities to reform myself and deliver on any stage.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Deliver on any stage and that was incredibly difficult to, you know, to sort of battle with.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And looking back at it now I think that you know, internal struggle was definitely detrimental for my, because it's paradoxical, thinking to yourself that you are getting stronger but that energy that you expend to get to that point is quite useless itself.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: So all the races before the Tour of Utah and Tour of Colorado towards the August timeframe were basically used in preparation to get myself into a somewhat reasonable condition in order to take out those two races at 110%.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, just remind myself and the world of my capabilities.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: But that did not happen.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: And so what was the hardest part for you to deal with when it became clear that didn't happen?
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I suppose, given the fact that I suppose the week before the tour of Utah in particular, I had been throughout the evergreen area in the Rockies because I was living in Colorado and there's an area out there, just the base of Mount Evans, which is a huge mountain.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: It's probably about 45 kilometres from Denver and the altitude is about 3,300 metres in evergreen and that's where I was living at that point in time and I'd gone through about six weeks of training in which I simulated to the second the exact replica of what I'd been able to have output-wise, able to have output was and oxygen uptake was before the Tour of Italy in 2010.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: And that was just on the numbers.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: But the sense of connection with the environment was on the next level again and I felt, I just felt incredible.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: And then, unfortunately, the day of the first stage of the Tour of Utah, I was hospitalized with pneumonia and septicemia and I didn't know where that came from.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: They didn't know where that came from.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I can only guess now that I probably got myself so deep in the zone through my own training beforehand that I've become susceptible to the conditions at high altitude, something along those lines and spent a number of days in the hospital and finally was discharged and decided to fly back at about 6.30 the next morning to Denver and unfortunately, that point in time all the hotel restaurants were closed and I asked the receptionist is there any places for food nearby?
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: And she displayed to me that, yeah, there were some restaurants just down the road there.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Just cross over at the intersection and you'll get yourself something to eat.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: So it was around 9.30 at night and I went to cross the road, waited for the green man all that good stuff you learn through as a kid Stepped into the road and don't remember anything from that point in time Pretty much for the next five to six days.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I just wasn't there and, yeah, what had happened was I unfortunately got hit by a hit-and-run driver while walking across the road, fracturing my skull, breaking my spine, shattering the pelvis, losing most of quite a few internal organs, a whole bunch of blood and getting an interesting brain injury.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: So in this time, that was, I suppose, what one might call an ending procedure, but not being in a conscious position to acknowledge that at the time, I just had to be held together by machineries and other people's blood in order to, you know, get one sentence across.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: It kind of went like what?
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: This wasn't the hotel room I was going to bed in?
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Um, and uh, yeah, the, the surgeons, you know, oh, what's the damage?
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: And they, they ran me through the, the breakdown of what had happened to my body, and I said I wasn't talking about the body, what happened to the car?
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: and and they, said well, we haven't found it yet, but they did eventually.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's one of those components to the story.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in terms of your, I mean, that's a terrible situation In terms then of your career.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: And what was next?
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: What realisations had you come to?
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Basically, at that point in time when you're looking at general survival, everything else goes out the window.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: And I think on top of that as well is a combination of the traumatic brain injury.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really in the position to cognitively establish the magnitude of the situation, because you know, when people you know approach you and tell you that you know you spent periods throughout the last few days not with us anymore, it sort of puts cycling into context and that reality is only something that can become to terms with over a long period of time.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's an interesting one to reflect on.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: I think what's interesting about where we're at in your journey is the injuries.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: You've had several setbacks from injuries throughout your cycling career.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: At what point, I guess, after this one, the hit and run, what was different about this incident compared to the others?
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: incident compared to the others.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: I suppose the gravity of the incident itself, because from not just the physiological point of view, the basic impossibility for me to function as I had done so previously was no longer there, and also cognitively, the things that I, you know, even at that point tried to readjust within my life, whether that be the capability to have normal conversations with people, articulate my own feelings or, you know, display my, you know my behaviours, or you know whether that be affection, or, you know, sorrow, excitement, all of the above weren't really on any spectrum at all.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: It was kind of blurred.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: And with that inability came, to be honest, quite a bit of fear, the not knowing, purely because I wasn't able to engage with people the way in which I had done so throughout my life beforehand.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: So for you, then, recognising it, was it at this point where you, I guess, from an interpersonal perspective, but then also from a physical, from a cycling perspective, recognised well, this was.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Life is now going to be different.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose it was the start of my real journey into the transition, which has been a long one and I remember just getting it across to you the other day, giving some details about how long it has been since 2014 and the way in which it's taken place has been nothing short of incredible.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Incredible, because having the capabilities to recognise things on the spot and say to myself even back then would have been interesting because they may have been able to provide me with a lifestyle catering to the needs of someone who's you know just been taken out by a car, with a previous career in cycling.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: But having been through what I've been through now, it's very, very different and has probably allowed me to explore myself in a very different way.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: We talk about this transition period and you get to explore yourself.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: How do you think it has marked you in terms of knowing more about yourself?
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: has allowed me to really establish myself In acknowledging what it is to be human for one, and also what it is to have your essential passions on really how to focus.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: On really how to focus, you know, placing it simply, attaching emotion to things, being able to recognise when to agitate a situation, to get the traction that you need with people on an interpersonal level and that's not negative agitation, that's just getting in touch with people and then the way that that promotes the capability to repeat those actions in order to perfect the lifestyle in which I'm choosing to live now and, I think, the mark that it can have for not just for myself but for others as well.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: And it probably only took the last phase of the last, you know, 10 years in order for me to recognise those in myself and be able to take from that the things that I believe, you know, I'm looking forward to spreading with others now.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: And so talk to me about that to spreading with others now.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: And so talk to me about that.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about that shift from I guess you the cyclist seeking that joy and freedom, from, you know, competing cycling around the world, to how you see, you know that passion, you know what's your passion now and you know what is next for passion now and you know what, you know what is what is next for you, what is now for you in many respects, I suppose yeah, the uh.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Well, the transition obviously um came about not through purely my um experience within the, the cycling world and all the professional concepts of that and the capability to do the things that you love and adore in order to flourish, but also the recognition of change, for transition, which came about, more so for me, in the rehabilitation that took place over the last 10 years, a number of occasions in private short-term institutions addressing, you know, substance use and also my brain injury, and also, throughout last year, spending 12 months in full-time rehabilitation looking at behavioral change models and pattern recognition in order to establish where it is throughout my ways and mindsets of thinking that had led to detrimental components of my lifestyle taking place and ways in which to fix them, which, interestingly enough, as I said to you the other day, were things that I'd become well adapted to throughout my sports psychology practice.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Looking at others and their sporting characteristics and picking up or identifying and being able to recognise behaviours in my own life in a totally different sphere was very, very interesting, and being able to look at it not so much from a peripheral angle but from a first-person basis, because I was the one exhibiting those behaviours, which was challenging but a huge learning process and something I'm really, really pleased to have taken part in.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: And that's interesting because you you kind of went, you went there, you know, straight away, which is, which is really good, because I suppose I wanted to get an understanding of what you're doing today.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: But then this past 10 years has been quite the journey for you and, like you say from a and from your own review, first you started, it sounds like, first you started looking at the from a sports, psychology, performance perspective in others, but then that flipped and you started recognizing some of those habits in yourself and you've gone deeper, recognizing those habits in yourself.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: And I'm interested then, on over this period, in terms of that rehabilitation mentally for yourself, why you've often used the word rehabilitation and I suppose I've missed a bit of at what point did you then?
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Did it break down?
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: At what point?
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: So what makes you think or feel that you had to rebuild?
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: between four to three years ago, and it was a period in which I had come to the final components throughout my studies and was continuing to just work with a really great group of, you know, independent local athletes, local athletes.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: But there was the uh, the unfortunate thing where, um, I ended up letting them go because I wasn't able to provide I knew that of myself and during that COVID period, an optimal time for people, you know, in a global sense, but particularly for one who was hiding their complete lifestyle in ways in which are purely detrimental for any form of progress which came about for medications which you know, unfortunately led to my hospitalisation on, you know, on many occasions and, yeah, some really, really, really, really bad outcomes.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: So it was within these points of time in which I was beyond the point of recognising the damage that I was doing to myself and then, purely due to the fact that my family, having the strength and support that they have always provided me and the friendship group that I'd always surrounded myself with, group that I'd always surrounded myself with, I was able to not just be told but recognize that this darkness could only be challenged by me getting the help that I needed, because I certainly wasn't in the position to give it to myself.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: I needed to take that step.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: Right and earlier in your career you spoke about.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: You know you weren't ready to ask for help.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: You know the support structure that you had around you at this time clearly different allowed you to recognize that help was necessary and it could get you out of the current position you were in yeah, yeah definitely, and from from that point of you know it's great that vulnerability that you went in.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: What was you know the damage you're doing to yourself?
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Perhaps the damage it's great that vulnerability that you went in.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: What was the damage you were doing to yourself?
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: Perhaps the damage to certainly emotionally to others?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: To what extent were you functioning in life?
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: What was going on for you outside of that?
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Were you able to hold down work or hold down career or anything along those lines?
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: hold down work or hold down career or anything along those lines.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Basically I wouldn't classify it as holding down much at all.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: I was able to sort of get by.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: But even the short-term jobs that I was doing were part-time and they weren't done in any capacity that I could call myself being proud of, I could call myself being proud of, and a lot of what I was doing was feeling time and just formulating gaps in between other periods of time to avoid loneliness.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: To avoid loneliness.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: And it's hard because in these periods, you know, I sort of look back at it now and it's very easy for me to look at sort of someone else in a similar situation and say that that's quite pitiful because they're not doing anything for themselves.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: But to be in that position have had experience in that world and the feeling of, you know, of helplessness because you can't even put things together to help yourself is demoralising.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: Put things together to help yourself is demoralizing and it's like the old saying that the higher you are, the harder you fall.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: It's quite true because when you have been at the top of the world in anything, I believe, when you're really down in the dirt just grabbing onto something that's going to save you seems as if it's going to take way too much energy.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: I was stuck in what a lot of people refer to as the B-zone, where you know the effort that it takes to get yourself out of a situation to be comfortable is far too great, and just being in the shit that you're sitting in at the moment can be comfortable enough.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: So you're sort of in a paradox and getting out of it just seems like way too much.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: And you know and it's also challenging too, because the people that you know too well, uh, know a lot better of you and they expect to see you on the front foot the whole time because that's the way that you have carried yourself out throughout your entire life.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: But now you're not in that zone anymore no, no.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: So from well, as poetic as it sounds, but from King of the Mountains, what do you see as your lowest point during this transition?
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: Um, probably just before it got better't know who I really was anymore.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Um, I didn't exactly know what I was doing with myself, um, and more importantly, I didn't know why I was doing the things that I was doing.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: And all the while had, you know, tremendous, tremendous people backing me.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: You know whether that be my family, the school I went to, you know, being in the Hall of Fame there, and a long and amazingly strong list of people who would be in there to support me 100% all of the time just didn't know about my story because I'd not told anyone about it and, yeah, there was nothing left.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: What was your motivation?
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: You asked for help, you took the help, you got the help.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: What was that motivation?
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: Or indeed, you spoke before about visualization of races and finding that flow.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: How has that type of ability, that athletic ability, supported you to come through the therapy and get to where you are today?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: Well, to break it down, basically, I got to such a low point a low point I thought to myself one day, if it can't really get any lower than this, what more can I get from the life itself?
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: So, pretty much from that point in time and it was simultaneous to the commencement of my full-time treatment I started to acknowledge things for what they are and the blessings that they bring to me, and whether that's just the simplicity of real connection, and whether that's just the simplicity of real connection, the honesty of truth when it comes to people telling you you know whatever's on their mind, the you know the real nature of the world and the way you know.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: I could have this capability to acknowledge people's, you know people's strengths, and it was sort of more vivid to me because I'd seen what it felt like to be without that you know, redefine for myself who I was, would you know, really, really crystallise the fact about what living is and that feeling you get when you are a child and everything is exciting.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: So I had to really put simply, work from the ground up, um, and as I did so, all the elements, um and the incremental games became more exciting, because I discovered more about myself and more about the way that other people can exhibit their you know expressions and their intrinsic joys.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: And then, obviously, through the process, you know, you start to gain more self-awareness and the different components of the transition start to take place, because I gathered my capability to reconnect with others that I hadn't spoken to in a long time, and the feedback that I got from that was a sensation for me of tenfold, because I was excited to reconnect and so were they, so it was reciprocated.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean all the beneficial things that people hear about through different recovery journeys were there.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: But having felt it firsthand through, you know, through the depths of the incidents and then the addiction itself, and then being able to flip it around and look at it from a totally different perspective, allowed me to shed light on things in a totally different way, which is really really good.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: And, you know, it's only through vulnerability and openness that, you know, we get those opportunities to put ourselves in the places we probably didn't expect ourselves to be in, and that's really something special.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, it is so, matthew.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: Where are you today?
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: You know what's your purpose, that new purpose, that new passion for you nowadays.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: My new purpose.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: I suppose what I really really want to try and get across is really helping people to re-establish themselves in a performance role, not just in the sports world but in anyone's world, from a mentor's perspective or a consultancy perspective, because a lot of people, I feel, need to be in a safe space to acknowledge their strengths and break their things down, to get a real baseline to measure the achievable things that they've got in their lives that are relevant to them, on a personal or professional objective set in a timely way, which is a very simple way of looking at it.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: It's simple, but not necessarily easy to achieve.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and you know, when I do speak to people these days, given the fact that I have been through a journey of my own, I like to think that the advice or suggestions that I can give people are of some value.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: What I do note is you know, I remember speaking to you about it the other day in the world these days, which is saturated by a whole bunch of instant gratification through the internet and whatnot, about people's, you know capabilities to offer.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: You know lifestyle changes.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: Wrapped in cotton wool in the magical forest, rubbing some oil into your body, like I'm not I'm not really into that at all um, I'll just tell people the truth and, uh, and they appreciate that, um, and you know, and, and, optimistically, they'll be able to tell me some truth about their stories and make way with it.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I have been working with an organisation here in Melbourne called Be Future Fit here in Melbourne called Be Future Fit, and they've been excellent.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: Building my sort of character profile in order to allow space for myself to get in touch with people who have had similar addiction issues or transitional and you're able to share with them from a lived experience what it's like to go through it, but then also perhaps the toolkit to help navigate that as well.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and you know, it's one of those things, too, where the more and more I'm able to place myself in the open position to talk about my story, the more traction it gets, purely because someone knows someone or they themselves have suffered similar situations, whether that's psychologically or physically, and they'd love someone to speak to about it.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, yeah brilliant, brilliant.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: So look, matthew, I suppose I certainly enjoyed our sort of winding conversation, and so those listening, when you think about the types of advice that you give.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: So those who you know are going through the type of transition that that you have gone through, what are the key points of advice, that or guidance that you'd give to them?
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: I think the main points of advice for others would be to find meaning in your hardships, which is pretty basic.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: But if, for whatever you're doing, as hard as it is, there's got to be a value in it and that might take some time to discover, but it does happen, and I think probably as well as that then the harder things become, the better it will be on the other side, which can be sort of grim to look at in an upfront perspective because you can say well, that wall is 50 meters high, there's no possible way to get over it.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: But if you know that on the other side is your children or you know the person you really really need to become or to be with, then you'll find a way and the discipline and self-respect you'll get through through just the trying to do so brings huge, huge rewards.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: So yeah, there's always a lot of advice to give, but you know we don't really learn anything too deeply by reading about it.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: We've got to live it ourselves.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: And I think the guidance or the advice that you've provided there is something that comes from one, a point of care, but then secondly, importantly, that point of lived experience and you know, demonstrating here the, like you said, the ups and downs, that habit recognition that you've gone through and it's great to well share this past hour and a bit with you to understand a bit more of your story and navigate how you've worked through and I guess I'm still working through that career, that transition from cycling to now giving back in that mentor capacity.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely been a journey, and it's definitely been a journey and, if anything else you know, it's taught me about self-accountability and the rewards of taking on board, you know, your actions for the better and sometimes the worse yeah, matthew, I just gotta say thanks very much for joining, joining us today.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: It was absolutely a thrilling conversation, so very thought-provoking along the way.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: So thanks very much for sharing thank you so much, ryan, it's been a pleasure thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.