Latest / That Real Estate Tech Guy / Episode 5 - Investor chat: Larry Goins from Neighborhood Housing Group

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Episode 5 - Investor chat: Larry Goins from Neighborhood Housing Group · That Real Estate Tech Guy

• 0:01
  Jordan Fleming: I can tell you one thing. Technology is the single most important aspect of every business that has successfully scaled.
• 0:09
  Narrator: It's time for That Real Estate Tech Guy. It's your weekly chance to explore how technology can help your real estate business explode. Each week you'll hear from real estate investors who have been there and done that and find out their favorite technology tips.
• 0:23
  Narrator: Listen in as Jordan speaks with tech companies and learns about new technologies and new ideas that will help you scale your business. And now join your host Jordan Samuel Fleming, CEO of smrtPhone for this week's episode.
• 0:41
  Jordan Fleming: All right, welcome to this episode of That Real Estate Tech Guy, my co-pilot for this episode is Larry Goins. Larry has been a good friend of mine for a number of years, we've worked together, he's wearing a smrtPhone hat, and I'm wearing a smrtPhone hat because we've worked together in his systems for years we've been, you know, associates through business, and I gotta say, he's one of the guys I really love talking to. Larry, thanks so much for being on.
• 1:05
  Jordan Fleming: Give people a flavor of your experience, what you do, and what your life is in real estate.
• 1:12
  Larry Goins: Man, I love it. I really appreciate that. First of all, man, thanks a lot for having me on. Because especially this is a show about tech. And I'm probably one of the least techie guys you'll ever meet. So guys watching this, listenin' to this. Don't be scared, right?
• 1:27
  Larry Goins: Don't be scared.
• 1:31
  Jordan Fleming: If Larry can do it.
• 1:33
  Larry Goins: If I had a VCR, it would be flashing 12 o'clock right now. So, but man, I've been doing real estate for 35 years, and over 35 years, I've bought and sold close to 1000 properties in 12 different states, we've done lots, land, commercial, have owned Dollar General Stores, Shoney's restaurants, self storage facilities, mobile home parks, but our core business is we wholesale, about five to 10 deals each and every month, we got a small team here in our office. And we do use technology. Technology scares me. Like I don't know how email works. I don't know about pop mail and all that. I don't know any of that. But I know I can pull up somebody's name, I can click send and they'll get it and they can send it back to me.
• 2:19
  Larry Goins: So I don't have to know how it works. That's the thing I love about working with Jordan is I don't have to know how smrtPhone works. Its smrtPhone. Right.
• 2:33
  Jordan Fleming: That's it.
• 2:33
  Jordan Fleming: That's, that's very true. And, you know, what really interests me is, I think, you know, because you got a long history in this doing a number of different types of real estate, etc. But you also got a long history of change of growing technology. So you know, you've you've sort of gone through some elements there, you've, you've gone through CRM elements, until you found a way that works, you've gone through phone systems. So you've found a way where you've kind of evolved that. So I mean, if you think about how your your kind of journey has been, what would be like some of the you know, what would be the main highlights of your technology journey in your real estate business?
• 3:16
  Larry Goins: I would say it would be learn my limits, right.
• 3:20
  Larry Goins: At one time, I used to sell websites back in the day back in the 90s, years ago, I had a guy that created PHP websites, and he, you know, we sold them together. And but I knew nothing about websites. And I thought, okay, I could develop anything.
• 3:35
  Larry Goins: So I started developing an offer blaster and this and that. I know nothing about software development, managing developers, managing coders. And I finally just like, I can't do this anymore, right? I need to go to the guys who know what they're doing. And glom on to them and use their resources because I didn't know what I was doing. So I would say learn my limits. That's probably the main thing. Because I'm a good sales guy. I'm a good guy on the phone, talking to sellers talking to buyers, putting deals together negotiating deals, you know, I mean, we buy all of our properties over the phone. And, but I know my limits, we use technology, but I don't create it. I don't claim to know how it works. I just know it works. And that's all I need to know.
• 4:22
  Jordan Fleming: Now, because you mentioned the team. So that means, you know, every time you know, when you've got a team, it's one thing if you're just one person by yourself working some leads, right? Pretty low tech. Right? Right, right. You know, you could practically use the Rolodex and add that corded phone if you wanted to go back 40 years, right? But if you've got a team and I see in the background, there's a screen with some people on it. That means if you really want to scale a business technology becomes crucial. So, you know, that means you got to have a way of managing leads. It means you got to understand, you know, you got to be able to keep accountable what's going on, can you kind of talk to me a bit about how you approach like, let's just focus on lead management, right? You get lead one, right? You don't want any of these leads to go dead? How do you approach that? From a technology point of view? What would I do as a team?
• 5:18
  Larry Goins: That's awesome.
• 5:18
  Larry Goins: Great, great, great question. So I do have a team. I have a small team at one time with our education business. And with our real estate business, I had 26 employees. I've simplified that we have a very small team about six, seven people. And I've got a Brie over here. She's our closing manager. She's right across from me. Tim is right here. He's acquisition. We have a new girl Devon, she's doing acquisitions. And on the screen here you see Donna, and Jean.
• 5:49
  Larry Goins: Can you see him waving? real, the real time they're in the Philippines. And Donna, on the right is our lead manager. Okay, you mentioned lead management.
• 5:58
  Larry Goins: Donna is our lead manager. She works with virtual lead managers, Christina Krause. So, and I've had I've had virtual assistants man, over the last 20 years, right, I've hired them everywhere from Upwork even before it was up work when it was Elance or something like that. I can't remember the name.
• 6:18
  Larry Goins: But Fiverr we've had them from everywhere, right best jobs.ph.
• 6:22
  Larry Goins: But the ones that have stuck with us, like Don has been with us now going on three, maybe four years Gene has been with us almost a couple of years now.
• 6:35
  Larry Goins: And and and through virtual lead managers, they train their VAs, how to use Podio how to use smrtPhone, how to use the all the technology, you know and train them how to do lead management. Not only that, but they train them how to revive and reengage leads as well. So Donna does not just keep up with our leads, she digs into our database, and re engages or revives leads, and then turns them over to me or Tim, or Devon. And then we will close them over the phone. Right? So.
• 7:11
  Larry Goins: So Donna, what she does is anytime a lead comes in, and you know we use smrtPhone, so we have a different number for every lead tracking source, right? Whether it's a bandit sign, or a Facebook, or direct mail, or SMS, or whatever it is, right? Or radio. So we have a different phone number for each one. So now we know when that lead comes in, Donna listens to that message or listens to the voicemail or reads that message.
• 7:41
  Larry Goins: And then she'll set a task for Jean. Jean is what I would call a setter Acquisition Manager slash setter. She gathers all the property information, and the motivation information, and then she'll tee it up for me or Tim, and then we'll get on the phone and close them over the phone. Right. And Donna, also every time the calls come in, you know, maybe it's maybe it's just a follow up call from somebody, you know, she'll take that lead to or take that call.
• 8:07
  Larry Goins: And she'll set a task, you know, hey, you missed a call from so and so or so and so just left you a message, call them back.
• 8:13
  Larry Goins: And she's on top of it. She is a bulldog, she won't let us go without calling these people.
• 8:21
  Larry Goins: She makes sure that we stay on top of everybody that we're supposed to. And even me, I mean, I gave her the right. I said you get on me if there's somebody I'm not calling you tell me exactly that you let me know. And they do that they do that which I'm thankful because that's where our deals come from. Right?
• 8:42
  Jordan Fleming: Well, and you mentioned. So I'm obviously mentioned smrtPhone as your phone system. And then you mentioned Podio. So your CRM was built inside of Podio. Now full disclosure, I'm gonna say this right now, I helped build that CRM in Podio. My old company Gamechangers. How, you know, built built Larry's technology.
• 9:00
  Jordan Fleming: So I you know, I'm not coming at this blind. I know exactly how his legacy systems works. But, but I want to try it some things because you've got some interesting parts to your system that I think maybe interesting to someone, maybe you know, who's starting out who wants to understand what are the things that they care about inside of their system. So as a business owner, right, as a as a guy who ultimately has to pay everybody in that room has to pay the bills on the office and wants to make some money. If you think about just your Podio system right now. What are maybe one or two parts of it that really inform your day or your your visibility around how your company is doing?
• 9:43
  Larry Goins: Wow, that's a great question. I got full disclosure as well. The system that you built is our third system that we've we had built right. The first one was all about buying stuff off of the MLS and HUD and that sort of thing. The second one we called simple Podio.
• 10:00
  Larry Goins: Because the whole throughout the thing we keep it simple, keep it simple, keep it simple. Well, we kept it simple and it didn't do anything. It was, it was a glorified, simple. Right, it was a glorified spreadsheet. But, but what we did is we actually took the time when we started working with the company, you know, that you put together, you know, when you put together our system, we started saying, Well, how do we want this to flow, it's got to have a workflow. So we have several different workspaces. And then we have several different apps like we have communications and CRM is one workspace, then operations is another. And then like controls is another controls is like employees, adding employees and that sort of thing, templates and follow up sequence and all that. But CRM and communications is when somebody calls, it comes in as a contact, you add their name, you get their information, then you convert it to a lead, is it a seller or a buyer, then you convert it to a lead, then it goes over to operations, right?
• 11:08
  Larry Goins: You can add a property, you can put it into deal pipeline, you can keep track of the property, or the property notes, the motivation, all that. And then one of the best things I got a deal just yesterday, Jordan, from an automated follow up sequence that you guys put together, I don't do anything with it. They get an automatic email and an SMS message once a month. Hey, we talked to you a while back about your property were you still wantin' to sell, you know, and then they respond.
• 11:35
  Larry Goins: Right? I got a deal just yesterday. Yeah, we spoke a couple a couple of months ago, and my wife and I talked about it, you know, can you still do that price that you gave us? And like, well, the market is turning. However, if you're ready to move forward today, I will still honor that price.
• 11:52
  Jordan Fleming: And what I'm hearing there, if I could just draw something out from there.
• 11:53
  Jordan Fleming: You know, I always hear I, you know, I'm not a real estate investor. But one of the things I always hear from real estate investors is it's the follow up.
• 12:02
  Jordan Fleming: You know, there aren't many people who just have one call close deal. Opportunity, right?
• 12:05
  Jordan Fleming: It happens occasionally. But usually, it's the follow up and where people don't follow up leads, they're not making any money because they're not doing that diligence. So what I'm hearing from that is that your system is really doing a facilitation so that they're your you know, that follow up is going to happen, it's going to happen. And that means that none of those leads in your system are being dropped because your CRM is set up to keep it the ball in the air essentially correct.
• 12:39
  Larry Goins: Absolutely. That's the whole key right there. If you guys don't get anything else out of this today, remember this, the fortune is in the follow up, right? The fortune is in the follow up, that's where probably 40 to 45, maybe sometimes 50% of our closings each month, are from old leads, they might be six months ago, and maybe three years ago, but they're from old leads in the system.
• 13:04
  Jordan Fleming: And that is something I think, you know, I Somebody needs to create a business of buying old leads know, if a new investor particularly thinks about only a few things to get off the ground, you know, that knowing that you have to follow up those leads. And if you don't follow up leads, you're leaving, essentially, you're leaving cash out there. You're you're you just no question. You're just you're just losing, you're losing out on money you could be making by, there's no question following up.
• 13:35
  Jordan Fleming: from investors that don't know what to do with them. That's your lead source. Right.
• 13:40
  Jordan Fleming: Well, I let me ask you another question about, you know, from a technology point of view, because you mentioned, you know, like tracking numbers and, and, you know, you so you clearly have bandit signs you've got you've got Facebook ads, potentially. Now the point of what the point, what's the point of a tracking number in that sense, is it do you think do you feel it so that, you know, what are you getting out of knowing where that lead came from for you?
• 14:08
  Larry Goins: Wow, there's so much and it's, it's tracking its KPIs. I'll give you an example.
• 14:14
  Larry Goins: Okay. We mail out about 10,000 postcards a week, a week, not a month, but a week. Okay. Now in that 10,000, some of them are probate that has their own smrtPhone number. Some of them are authentic list that has their own smrtPhone number. Some of them are prop stream that has their own smartPhone number, right. So, when a lead comes in, we can track from lead to set to offer to contract to closing right? We can track that timeframe, right. We can track all that. Then we can look at on the closings Oh, well, we're making an average of 38% more on a probate lead than we are on a prop stream lead, right? So we can track,
• 15:07
  Jordan Fleming: we're gonna ramp up some things. And so though, so one of the things, then, by having an intelligently integrated system like that, you're able to say, Look, man, I'm spending x on these leads, whatever, say, I'm buying lists.
• 15:25
  Jordan Fleming: And the quicker you can then make intelligent decisions, and be saying, you know, this list, this type of list is making me money. This one's not making me as much money. I'm gonna ramp up here, I'm gonna cut out there.
• 15:35
  Jordan Fleming: So are those the sort of business decisions you're making? Because these things are all connected?
• 15:43
  Larry Goins: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I would, I would be lying if I said I was on top of it as much as I should be. But we do track those in for those items. And we use what is it swift flows that we use for their overview, word overview, overview overview, my business partners? Yeah, yeah, your business partners overview. So we use their dashboard, I think that's what it's called. And we usually have it up here on the screen and have the half the girls in the corner of the screen, but I put them on full screen so you guys can see it, okay. But we have our dashboard up here, it tracks our dials our talk time, by the day, by the week, it tracks our leads coming in by lead source, it tracks our number of offers by a by Acquisition Manager, whether it's me, or Jean up there, or Devin or Tim, and and it tracks, the closings, the date, from, you know, contract to closing, you know, it tracks all that and our profit by lead source. So, we have, you know, we have really about a dozen core KPIs that we keep track of, on the marketing side, on the operation side or on the financial side.
• 16:59
  Jordan Fleming: And you're able to, because everything is connected, because your systems are integrated, etc. It means that though, there's no, you know, you're not having to dig deep to find these numbers every month, they're essentially being presented to you as they happen.
• 17:13
  Jordan Fleming: So you can keep track of them
• 17:18
  Larry Goins: in live real time.
• 17:18
  Larry Goins: Now, that Now, the downside, I'm going to tell you with every kind of technology, it's everybody on here has heard garbage in garbage out, right.
• 17:30
  Larry Goins: You've heard that term. So if you want to know what your KPIs are, you got to make sure you keep the Fields up to date in your system, right? If your fields aren't updated, the ones that can't be updated automatically, right? Yep. If the fields aren't updated, then you have garbage. Right? You don't know your information. So that's another thing that Donna does, is she keeps track of the fields, that whenever whenever we got this overview set up, right, whenever we got this dashboard set up, they gave us a little video, as well as a white paper that said, these fields right here, control this, these fields control this, these fields control this. So she goes in and edits the fields and updates the fields and make sure they're current. So that way we are our data is correct. Is it always 100%? No, I'll be the first one to tell you. Well, who is
• 18:28
  Jordan Fleming: Jesus, I work in technology, and my data is not 100% Correct. But but it's an important point to make that I think, you know, there are two things that I've noticed with particular new investors, when they come to technology, number one, your garbage in garbage out rule is 100%, one of my biggest Maxim's right, keep your data clean, or you're wasting time and money. Right. And the second is, you got to actually, like, you got to actually work these systems, you know, it's, I think people, people often just they talk about SEO, you know, I hear people talk about CRMs. And they talk about these sorts of things. And technology is only working when you work it properly. And, you know, the what I think is great about your system is I can see how leads get passed down the chain.
• 19:22
  Jordan Fleming: Right? You know, they come into this sort of, it's one of a better term, they come into this unqualified bucket, and then you can watch it being worked. And whether that is to get it under contract at the seller stage or and market it out or, or to get it out to your buyers to get to get that you know, contract in place over the other side. You can you can watch that happen, which means you got full visibility of your business and and you can make adjustments knowing that you're on top of what's going on, which I think is great.
• 19:56
  Larry Goins: And that is so so true. Not only that, but But no one can hide in the word woodwork, right? Nothing is hidden. There is a history of every single touch anytime.
• 20:08
  Larry Goins: Like, let's say Donna sets a task for me to call somebody right? And last week, and then she chats me and says, Larry, you haven't called this person yet? Yeah, I tried to call him twice yesterday, she said, not according to Podio. Not according to smrtPhone. And she knows I'm not gonna call him for my cell phone. Right? And you can't hide the data tells everything right. But here's another thing, you started mentioning it. But one of the most important things about this is you've got to spend a little bit of time, every once in a while to analyze the data, like it does me no good to know that I'm making 38% more on probate leads, if I do nothing about it, right? It does me no good to know that information. Right?
• 21:00
  Larry Goins: You've got to take action, you've got to analyze that data, and then take action on that data.
• 21:07
  Jordan Fleming: It's the same I know you and I've talked before about, you know, the concept of training someone on how and making sure that someone you're training on doing cold calling or following up with someone, you know, you always want to get that level check to make sure that the quality is being maintained. And, you know, I know, I know that your times where you go in and you listen to some calls, because it's just gonna He's gonna give you that little bit of, are we? Okay, are we still are we still on the right course?
• 21:37
  Larry Goins: Oh, man, speaking of listen to calls, i Listen Live. I listen live, you know, with the with the what is it smrtPhone Pro or whatever. But yeah, man, I mean, I can listen, I can Whisper, I can, but they hate it when I Whisper. I'm like say this, and then they don't and I go say it.
• 22:02
  Larry Goins: So I don't I don't do that that much. But I do Barge in. Right.
• 22:07
  Larry Goins: So that way, I can listen to the call a little bit and kind of get a little bit about what's going on. And then they can say, well, let me let me bring the owner over, you know? And then I'll wait a couple seconds go, Hey, this is Larry, how you doing? You know, as if I just joined the call.
• 22:22
  Jordan Fleming: But you've got all the contacts there? Because you Right, right, right, right.
• 22:25
  Larry Goins: I know exactly what's going on. And they chat chat me. You know, they'll chat me, we use Google Drive Google, whatever, Suite or whatever. And they'll chat me the Podio link.
• 22:36
  Larry Goins: And that's probably one thing we don't take advantage of in Podio is the messaging part. We don't really do that. But we just use Google Chat for our email and drive and calendar and all that.
• 22:49
  Larry Goins: But anyway, so yeah, that's very, very important.
• 22:53
  Jordan Fleming: Well, listen, I know you've got someone you're going to be meeting so I'm gonna go straight into the real estate tech, the real estate tech guy Fast Five, these are five questions I asked every investor that comes on Quick, quick questions, quick answers, if you can. So number one, what technology product has had the biggest impact on your business?
• 23:13
  Larry Goins: Wow, what product?
• 23:13
  Larry Goins: Wow. It's probably gonna sound like this is planned, but it's a smrtPhone I have used on Yeah, that's the smrtPhone logo.
• 23:28
  Larry Goins: Because I could tell you I've never had a phone system that integrated with our CRM. So if you've got to manually put in your leads, you know in your CRM and all that now no other ones do that now, but I've used Callrail call a you know, all the different ones. And smrtPhone was the one that really I mean, it really changed the our whole game It really did it allowed me to Listen, Whisper, Barge in. It allowed us to keep track of everything, and they automatically went in to the system. So it really I mean, if I had to pick one, you know, it would it would be smrtPhone.
• 24:09
  Larry Goins: If I had to pick a second one, it would be Podio
• 24:11
  Jordan Fleming: Excellent. Well, I'll take it as your checks in the mail along with a new
• 24:17
  Larry Goins: stock options.
• 24:17
  Larry Goins: That's all I got the stock options.
• 24:20
  Jordan Fleming: Question number two, what is the biggest mistake you've made with technology in your business?
• 24:26
  Larry Goins: Trying to do it myself, trying to figure it out, learn you know, learn like -- Oh, I could do this. I could do this, just like just like like editing our websites or whatever, right? I mean, we use carrot websites, which in my opinion, I mean, they're simple they're easy to understand if you can write a word doc you can edit the site you know, add video add media to it. So So yeah, I think that's it. That's a
• 24:53
  Jordan Fleming: That's a great answer. I think not enough people are self aware enough to know that that is that is the truth. Quite Shouldn't have three, what is your best advice on how to integrate technology into your business? So someone, particularly someone's maybe just starting out, and they're approaching this, what would be your best piece of advice? Aside from maybe trying to not, don't do it all yourself?
• 25:15
  Larry Goins: Well, here's what happens. And I don't know if I'm going to answer this the right way. But here's what I see a lot of people, especially starting in business, they, they end up getting all this technology. And they spend all their time onboarding and learning the technology. And, and then they do no business, right? So so what happens is, they're learning how to use this or that this CRM, that CRM, this phone system that you know, and they end up bogged down in learning all that, but they got no business because they're not doing business. So I would say starts, start small, start simple. Do a few, especially if you're in real estate, I know you got a lot of people in the real estate space, especially if you're in real estate, do a few deals. So you kind of know the flow in the process. And then start adding technology to your flows and process. Don't create technology and run your business around that the technology is supposed to support your business, not your business support the technology, in my opinion, anyway,
• 26:19
  Jordan Fleming: you got to do the deals, there's no point in havin'... Do the deals, if you're making the deals.
• 26:25
  Jordan Fleming: Exactly. Alright. Question number four, what is the one thing you wish you had known when you started in real estate?
• 26:34
  Larry Goins: Man, I started over 35 years ago, right? I wish I would have known. I got out of it for a little while. I wish that I would have known how profitable it could be, and how it can really literally change your life at an early early age, I would have, I would have done things a little bit different. I also wish I would have I wish I would have done more commercial deals early on. Like right now we're buying self storage facilities, and mobile home parks. And I've bought a few in the past. But I wish I would have focused more on that.
• 27:12
  Larry Goins: Right.
• 27:13
  Jordan Fleming: That's a phenomenal answer. Now, final question. So if someone's just starting out, and they're looking to invest a bit of money, their money into technology, and they're just starting out, what would you recommend the three types of technology or technology products you would recommend they bring in first? Like they're just starting out? So what what would you say you should be spending your money on? Is it lead gen?
• 27:37
  Jordan Fleming: Is it CRM? Is it like what do you think people should be focused on?
• 27:41
  Larry Goins: I think number one is tracking, right? Tracking your you know, you gotta have marketing, right? So whatever technology you want to use with that, whether it's PPC marketing or whatever, but but I would say create a foundation for your marketing, right? Because a lot of people, well I'm just gonna put my cell phone, you know, on my postcard, or I'm just gonna, you know, whatever. No, you've got to set up that technology.
• 28:07
  Larry Goins: So I will say, number one, get get your get your tracking number set up, right? And I'm not pitching smrtPhone, I'm not doing that. But I mean, it is the first step you should do you got to have your tracking numbers, right? Because it does no good. You know, otherwise, six months or a year or two years down the road, you're like, Oh, well, we got to onboard this, we got to do that.
• 28:29
  Larry Goins: And like we talked about earlier in the conversation, then it's gonna be a pain trying to trying to migrate things, right? So so so I would say start out with your, you know, just keep it as simple as possible. Start out with one tracking number, you know, if you're just doing direct mail or whatever, then add... smrtPhone makes it so easy. You click on a button, add a phone number, you type in the area code you want, boom, you know, two seconds later, you got a phone number, right? So, so yeah, just start out with your tracking number. And then from there, do a few deals, then worry about a CRM,
• 29:09
  Jordan Fleming: get get those deals in place is the key. I think the key thing and I think that's a great thing to remind people sometimes is the deals have to be flowing. And if the deals aren't flowing, what are you doing? You're wasting.
• 29:21
  Jordan Fleming: That's right. You're wasting your time.
• 29:23
  Larry Goins: That's true, then then you're a slave to the technology and you got no money coming in.
• 29:29
  Jordan Fleming: Well, listen, Larry, I mean, I know you got someone to meet so I'm gonna let you go. i It's always a pleasure to see you. It's not I've not seen you. I appreciate you. Just before you go, just let people know where they can find you.
• 29:41
  Jordan Fleming: What you're up to right now.
• 29:42
  Larry Goins: Sure, absolutely.
• 29:42
  Larry Goins: You can find me on social media Larry Goins, or you can go to Larrygoins.com This is a book that I wrote. I was actually doing real estate day trading. I was doing virtual wholesaling before you had ever heard the term virtual wholesaling, right?
• 29:59
  Larry Goins: I wrote this book few years ago, we've updated a couple times real estate day trading how to buy and sell houses using proven technologies. Hey for buying and selling houses, same day using the internet, so yeah, Larrygoins.com Pick up the book available wherever books are sold.
• 30:19
  Jordan Fleming: Fantastic, Larry, it's pleasure. I'll drop all that into the podcast notes, and I'll see you soon. Awesome.
• 30:24
  Jordan Fleming: Good to see you, man. Cheers, man.
• 30:29
  Narrator: Thanks for listening to another amazing episode of That Real Estate Tech Guy. Head over to thatrealestatetechguy.com to check out all episodes and get special discounts on ton of awesome real estate technology platforms.