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Interview Only w/ Governor Mike DeWine - A Republican Governor Says What He Really Thinks · The Chuck ToddCast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
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  Speaker 1: you by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about Medicare
• 0:06
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  Speaker 1: And then call chapter today at 980-734-4200. Well, joining me
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  Speaker 1: now is somebody I've known a long time, somebody that
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  Speaker 1: I've covered a long time and somebody who's been in
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  Speaker 1: a lot of he's been in county office, state government
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  Speaker 1: and the federal government. And he's currently the governor of Ohio.
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  Speaker 1: Governor DeWine, do I have this right? How about experienced wisdom?
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  Speaker 2: Experienced, yes. Yes, yes. We like that better.
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  Speaker 1: Look, this is kind of the spirit of the conversation
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  Speaker 1: I want to have. This is not a, hey, what
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  Speaker 1: do you think of Lake America? Or what do you
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  Speaker 1: think of this? I kind of, you've seen a lot.
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  Speaker 1: You seem to be a little more open to talking about,
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  Speaker 1: you know, sort of, the bigger picture you're sort of
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  Speaker 1: both looking back and I think in looking forward. So
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  Speaker 1: I just think it's, and what sort of prompted me
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  Speaker 1: to want to interview you was the conversation you wanted
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  Speaker 1: to have about both the death penalty and frankly, the
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  Speaker 1: conversations you've been trying to have about immigration, which in
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  Speaker 1: some ways you've been a lonely person in these places.
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  Speaker 1: These aren't the cleanest of political ideas. So let me
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  Speaker 1: start there. Is this something Do you feel more comfortable
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  Speaker 1: speaking your mind in this moment of your political life?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not running again. So I suppose to some
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  Speaker 2: extent that's true. Although, you know, if you look at,
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  Speaker 2: if you really go back and look at my positions,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I was very plain and went back through,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I started as a county prosecuting attorney. 50
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: years ago, I first ran for office. So the last
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  Speaker 2: 50 years, I've been in office all before. Sherrod Brown
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  Speaker 2: beat me in 2006. And so I was off for
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  Speaker 2: four years. But in some cases like the death penalty,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I have evolved. I think the facts have changed.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I think, you know, my rationale for the
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  Speaker 2: death penalty when I went to the state Senate after
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  Speaker 2: being a county prosecuting attorney and was a co-sponsor of
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  Speaker 2: the death penalty bill, we passed it. And my rationale
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  Speaker 2: was really that it is a deterrent. I think the
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  Speaker 2: facts today show that it's highly, highly unlikely it's a deterrent.
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  Speaker 2: In the last six years, for example, in Ohio, of
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  Speaker 2: the people, we've only had two people actually convicted of
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  Speaker 2: a death penalty in a death penalty case. Two, if
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  Speaker 2: you look at how long it takes, if you just
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  Speaker 2: exclude my time in office, because we haven't had any
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  Speaker 2: for a number of reasons, we've not had any executions,
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  Speaker 2: but If you go back and look at what was
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  Speaker 2: the average length of time, it was 21 years for
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  Speaker 2: those people who actually were executed. And a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the people who were sentenced for various reasons, court decisions
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  Speaker 2: and other things, they never got to the point where
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  Speaker 2: they were executed. So I think it's the odds that
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  Speaker 2: this is a deterrent. I just think there has to
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  Speaker 2: be some surety to this. And swiftness, maturity and swiftness
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  Speaker 2: seems to me the two criteria. They're in conflict, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like I think about this, the death penalty advocate would
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  Speaker 1: push back at you and say, well, the reason it's
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  Speaker 1: not a deterrent is because it takes too long to
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  Speaker 1: go from adjudication to execution.
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  Speaker 2: That's true. And my answer to that is the logical
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  Speaker 2: someone who is in favor of the death penalty say,
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  Speaker 2: we just need to speed things up. And the answer
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  Speaker 2: to that is we've tried. I was in Congress when
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  Speaker 2: we voted on a bill that significantly limited to the
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  Speaker 2: federal court's jurisdiction and their ability to really do anything.
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  Speaker 2: And the whole idea was that that would speed things up.
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  Speaker 2: It didn't. We still are. You know, Ohio sitting at
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  Speaker 2: 21 years is what our what our average is. But
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  Speaker 2: so so that's that's a case where I think I
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  Speaker 2: would argue the facts have changed and I I follow
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  Speaker 2: the facts and I came out against the death penalty.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's not a deterrent. And to me, that's
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  Speaker 2: the only moral justification you can have for the death penalty.
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  Speaker 2: If you don't think it's a deterrent, it's kind of
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  Speaker 2: hard to, in my opinion, to do it. The other
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  Speaker 2: issue you mentioned was immigration. And when I went to the,
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  Speaker 2: I've been in Congress, I went to the, I've been
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  Speaker 2: to the House, then I was in the Senate. When
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  Speaker 2: I went to the Senate, I was on judiciary committee
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  Speaker 2: in the first year or year and a half. We
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  Speaker 2: were involved in some significant debates about, uh, legal immigration. And, uh,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I don't think my position has really changed
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  Speaker 2: since then. You know, I was one of the people,
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  Speaker 2: Spence Abraham, for example, he and I came to the
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  Speaker 2: Senate at the same time, both had the idea that, look,
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  Speaker 2: immigration is an integral part of the success of this country.
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  Speaker 2: And it needs to, we need to continue to have
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  Speaker 2: legal immigrants and making those decisions. I mean, I wrote
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  Speaker 2: a An op-ed piece for the New York Times 10
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  Speaker 2: days ago or so, and one of the things I
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  Speaker 2: said was that President Trump, I think, has a unique opportunity.
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  Speaker 2: And he can do something that nobody else can do.
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  Speaker 2: He now has great credibility in dealing with illegal immigration,
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  Speaker 2: particularly along the southern border. I think now he could
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  Speaker 2: take that and sort of do a Nixon goes to
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  Speaker 2: China and say, look, let's now fix the southern border.
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  Speaker 2: Now let's talk about who we really want to come
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  Speaker 2: into this country. And I think that, you know, Chuck,
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  Speaker 2: most people agree who've really looked at this, you know,
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  Speaker 2: we're not making these decisions based upon what's in the
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  Speaker 2: best interest of this country. We bring over, just as
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  Speaker 2: one example, we bring over college students here. Now, they've
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  Speaker 2: gone down over the last year or so, but we
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  Speaker 2: were bringing a whole bunch of college students over here.
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  Speaker 2: We were educating them. Many, many of them wanted to stay.
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  Speaker 2: They wanted to, their engineers or the doctors, they wanted
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  Speaker 2: to stay. For many of them, they couldn't stay. We're
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  Speaker 2: sending them back. We're educating them. Just from the US's interest,
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  Speaker 2: isn't it in our interest to keep some of these people?
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  Speaker 2: All the decisions, it seems to me, we need to say,
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  Speaker 2: what do we need? In Ohio, we are creating a
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  Speaker 2: lot of jobs. We are red hot as far as business,
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  Speaker 2: CNBC ranked as number one state for business. Our biggest
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  Speaker 2: challenge is, do we have the people to fill those jobs?
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  Speaker 2: If you look at our increase in population in the
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  Speaker 2: last two years, also actually the last 10 years, numbers
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  Speaker 2: are about the same, we have had somewhat of an increase. 60%
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  Speaker 2: of those people are immigrants. So 60% of our increase
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  Speaker 2: came from immigrants. So if you start... depopulating, literally pulling
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  Speaker 2: them out, which is what is happening today in Ohio
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  Speaker 2: and other states. You're not going to have people who
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  Speaker 2: can work in Springfield who are filling jobs that weren't
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  Speaker 2: being filled. But look at the national numbers. You have
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  Speaker 2: about a third of the people who are working in
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  Speaker 2: nursing homes and long-term care. And a third of the
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  Speaker 2: people who are doing home health care, they're immigrants. You
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  Speaker 2: pull them out and who's going to take care of
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  Speaker 2: an aging population as the baby boom generation continues to
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  Speaker 2: get get older?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, as I joke, you know, be
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  Speaker 1: careful trying logical arguments. Sometimes we banned logic in our politics.
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  Speaker 1: debates sometime in the last few years. But I want
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  Speaker 1: to go back to death penalty a second, then I
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  Speaker 1: want to get to immigration. Because I asked you sort
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  Speaker 1: of the devil's advocate from the right. Now, let me
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  Speaker 1: go to the devil's advocate from the left on this,
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  Speaker 1: which is there's a lot of folks who say you
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  Speaker 1: can judge a society based You can judge a country
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  Speaker 1: and its health of its democracy by how it treats
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  Speaker 1: its incarcerated. Do you accept that premise? Because you think
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  Speaker 1: about these things through your faith as well. And I
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  Speaker 1: have a feeling you don't believe you can be pro-life
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  Speaker 1: and pro-death penalty. It sounds like to me.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a problem. I think the only
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  Speaker 2: way you can do it is the way I justified
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  Speaker 2: it when I was first. So I was forward, and
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  Speaker 2: that is we're saving lives. We're stopping murderers from killing
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  Speaker 2: somebody or potential murderers.
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  Speaker 1: But if you're not saving lives, then it's no longer.
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  Speaker 2: But if you're not saving lives, I can't. Yeah, you can't.
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  Speaker 2: You can't do it. Look, I think that's one of
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  Speaker 2: the ways of how you judge a society. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: there's a famous, I think, Hubert Humphrey quote about that.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't talk necessarily about it talks about the poor
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  Speaker 2: and I can't do exactly do the quote, but it's
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  Speaker 2: a similar thought process. Look, I think what it is.
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  Speaker 2: I believe the most effective, and this is the old
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  Speaker 2: prosecutor in me, but it's also someone who was Attorney
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  Speaker 2: General of Ohio and someone who studied the data. The
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  Speaker 2: most effective way to reduce violent crime is to literally
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  Speaker 2: incarcerate the violent offenders. And if you look at the data,
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  Speaker 2: it's a relatively small number of the whole criminal element.
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  Speaker 2: If you just look at those who commit violent, violent crimes,
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  Speaker 2: and if you really, the most effective thing you can
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  Speaker 2: do to reduce violent crime is to literally go after
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  Speaker 2: these violent offenders and to literally lock them up. Besides
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  Speaker 2: those individuals who, frankly, we don't want to see out,
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  Speaker 2: or at least not for a long, long time, most
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  Speaker 2: of the other ones get out quickly. In Ohio, for example,
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  Speaker 2: we let out of our state prison system, I think
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  Speaker 2: somewhere between 16,000 and 18,000 people a year. They are
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  Speaker 2: in for a relatively short period of time. What's the
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  Speaker 2: most important thing? The most important thing is we don't
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  Speaker 2: want them coming back. We have put an emphasis and
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  Speaker 2: we can always do more, but on giving them training
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  Speaker 2: that they need and helping them after they get out
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  Speaker 2: to have. It always comes down to housing and a
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  Speaker 2: job and transportation. I mean, those are the three things.
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  Speaker 2: And the more we can help them do that, the
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  Speaker 2: more likely they will be successful and the more likely
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  Speaker 2: they're not coming back into our prison.
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  Speaker 1: So I always thought our prison system should be a
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  Speaker 1: part of our community college system. Meaning it was almost
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  Speaker 1: like mandatory if you were in prison, you were taking classes.
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  Speaker 1: And because to me, it's all, if you really believe
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  Speaker 1: in the prison system as rehabilitation, then you should be
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: providing rehabilitative services. And we know in many cases, You know,
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  Speaker 1: skills training, education is the is as good of a
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  Speaker 1: rehab as you can come up with. Never mind. You know,
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  Speaker 1: maybe there's other issues. Maybe there is some mental health issues.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe there's some health care.
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  Speaker 2: And look, we do a lot of that. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: we do a lot of that. We have our community
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  Speaker 2: colleges who are doing courses and we've got inmates who
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: get who get degrees. Some people don't like that. They
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  Speaker 2: think they're getting something free. And, you know, I'm out
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  Speaker 2: here and I'm working and I got to pay. I
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  Speaker 2: understand that. But it's in our self-interest. It's in our self-interest.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we even have in Ohio, we have a
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  Speaker 2: company that makes gloves and, you know, they're integrated. We
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  Speaker 2: have people who are working in that glove factory every
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  Speaker 2: single day. So and then when they get out, many
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: of them will be able to work actually in that factories.
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  Speaker 2: These are all things that we, you know. we are
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  Speaker 2: doing and you can always do better. But it seems
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  Speaker 2: to me that's the, with that many people coming out,
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  Speaker 2: your goal is give them the tools that they need
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: to make it.
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  Speaker 1: Do you think this is, you know, it's funny, every
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  Speaker 1: once in a while, we can have a nuanced conversation
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  Speaker 1: about crime and about prisons. And then a lot of
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: times a campaign comes around and we get into these,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you know, absolutes, right? And we create this impossibility. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I think about you know, one of my early years
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: covering politics was the three strikes in your out year.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Remember that? You know, that basically that was the 1994
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  Speaker 1: campaign theme in many ways. And I think there's a
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: lot of regret about that, right? There was a lot
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: of regret that, oh, that was an overcorrection, right? Whether
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  Speaker 1: it's the state bills that passed in 94, 95, the
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: federal bill that passed in 96. And we've collectively decided
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: we went too far. How do we... It feels like that,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and this is a good way to pivot to immigration,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: it feels like that's where this immigration debate is in
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  Speaker 1: that category right now, where we were in crime in
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: the 90s.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting point. I mean, there's no doubt
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: in a lot of public policy issues, we let emotion
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: drive it. You know, we are only human, and that is,
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  Speaker 2: I guess, is natural. But I mean, I can tell
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  Speaker 2: you from looking at data long enough in regard, again,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I started as a prosecutor. My wife says I'm still
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a prosecutor at heart. That's what I really love doing.
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  Speaker 1: That's usually true of prosecutors, that at the end of
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: the day, they never stop being prosecutors.
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  Speaker 2: You look at things that way, but the data never
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: changes on this point. That is, it is a relatively
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: small percentage of the criminals who are the violent criminals.
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  Speaker 2: And if you really want to stop the violence, you
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: literally get them, lock them up. Now, some of them
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: will outgrow it. Literally, this is a function of being,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: you know, 20 or 25 and you're a male. And,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: you know, some of them will eventually outgrow that. But
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  Speaker 2: that is a statistic that an analysis that never changes.
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  Speaker 2: If people really, really look at it, that's who you
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: have to get out of society. If what you're worried
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: about is violent crime, which I think for most people,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: that's what, you know, we're quite annoyed if our car
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: is stolen, but the violent crime is what we totally fear,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: you know, for members of our family and for ourselves. Right.
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  Speaker 1: Well, going back to immigration, You know, we're a contradiction
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: as a country, right? We've, you know, we're a nation
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of immigrants that's never been happy about that. Meaning like we're,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I always feel as if, and this is why I'm
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: both optimistic that we're going to get through this because
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: we sort of have been through this before where when
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: we're upset at each other, we start to point, we
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: start to otherize and all this stuff. We did it
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: at the turn of the 20th century. We did it.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: at various times in the.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: 1930s.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: I grew up in Miami during the Mariel boat lift.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I saw it firsthand. It's interesting to me what you've
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: noticed with the Haitian community in Ohio. That was my
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: experience at how people first didn't embrace the Haitian community
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: in Miami and now have in South Florida. And it's
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: a vibrant part of the South Florida fabric.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right. We've gone, you can look at
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  Speaker 2: different periods of time, you know, when we've been very,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: very restrictive and other periods, you know, of time where
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: we have not. We do self-correct. And the reason I'm
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: optimistic is because I think that it will become apparent
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  Speaker 2: at some point in the not too distant future that
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: we need these people. And we don't want to become Japan.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Japan didn't grow because their population,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you know, basically got too old.
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  Speaker 2: I look at it from the point of view of Ohio.
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  Speaker 2: I don't pretend to know what's going on in all
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: the other states. Since I've been governor, I focus pretty
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: much this. We need people. We need people. My friend
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  Speaker 2: Phil Graham once said, He was on the floor, and
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I think it was immigration you're debating, but he says,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: we need people who want to pull the wagon. We
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: don't need people who want to ride in the wagon.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: We need people who want to pull the wagon. In
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: that sense, if you want to come here and work,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: and that's what, to me, was so compelling about the
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Haitians in Springfield. You talk to the employers, and what
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the employers would say is, yeah, we had some challenges.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: You got a cultural challenge. Sure. And you got a
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: language challenge. But I hired them. Why did I hire them?
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I need to fill that job. And once I got them,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: they would pass the drug test. They never passed. No
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: trouble passing the drug test. They showed up for work.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And if I did not give them overtime, they went
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: out and got a second job. Because that's what they
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: were here to do. Some of them were shunning money
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: back home to Haiti to family. Some had brought their
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: family with them, but they all wanted to work. And
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: that's what the employers told us. And so the idea
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: that you're going to throw all these people out, it's
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: just in our own self-interest. So I guess the reason
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I'm optimistic is I think it's going to become abundantly
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: apparent But this idea of totally throwing a lot of
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: people out, it's not a question now about do you
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: let people in the southern border? The president's pretty much
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: fixed that. But the question the question is do you
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: really get rid of people who have been here five
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: years six years seven years two years four years who
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: are working and contributing is that in our best interest
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and just seems to me it's not.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
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  Speaker 1: help with any gambling concerns. Finally, you can also call
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: 1-877-770-7867 if you're in Louisiana. Governor, I mean, this is
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: where it's like the American public has spoken. They didn't
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: like the chaos in the border and they like immigration.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Like this idea that you could be for both. I
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: want a secure border and I want to have a
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: fairly open immigration policy that that has some order to it.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Like that's where 60 percent of America is. The problem
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: is about two thirds of them are in one party,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: one thirds in another. And there's not a majority in either. Well,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: I think you're correct.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I think the majority of people, it's sort of, you know,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: I think some people look at it and think, yeah,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, we want our laws enforced. And who can
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: be against saying we want our laws enforced? You know,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the Haitians we're talking about, we're here actually legally. I mean,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: recently they've been they've been legally now they're now they're not.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Look, I happen to think we have I happen to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: think with what's happening in the Western Hemisphere that, hey,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: if we're going to make this attitude that what happens
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: in our hemisphere, we need to worry about. I think
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: we've been derelict in our duty in with Haiti. I've
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I know it's a challenge and.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: It is. It is a challenge.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: It is. You know, I mean, you look at this
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: island of Hispaniola separated by a mountain and you have
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: one country that is just thriving. And it's this economic,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you know, it's having, you know, been growing. And it
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: really is. And this divide between the Dominicans and the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Haitians economically, culturally. It's striking. But anyway, look, we.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Yes. Now we're we're. Getting out of my zone. Fair enough.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Well, you were in the feds. You were in the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: federal government.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was. I was in the federal. But look,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: we do have an interest. I'll just let it go
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: with this. We have an interest in stability of our neighbors.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: And bluntly, we're not into... I know we can't, you know,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: fix nations. And certainly we tried in Haiti when I
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: was in the Senate. We tried. We sent, you know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: we sent police officers who are Haitian from New York
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: City and from Miami and other places and tried to
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: fix their police. And we didn't do it. I mean,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: it just didn't last for many, many, many reasons. But
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: stability in the hemisphere and people being able to make
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: a living is important. And so, yeah. Yeah.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think your politics have changed, but the party has.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're a mainstream Republican anymore? Do
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: you feel like the Republican Party has changed, or is
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: this a Trump phenomenon?
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Maybe all of the above, in a sense. I mean,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I think that politics have certainly changed. And look, I mean...
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: The president seems to me should get credit for some
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: things he's doing, at least from Mike DeWine's perspective. We
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: got too far away from the idea that free trade
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: was everything and that it wasn't important if we produced anything.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, we went too far that way. And what
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Trump has been able to say, what the president says,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: we'll make stuff in the United States. And as the
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: governor of a manufacturing state, we have the third largest
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: manufacturing population workers in the whole country. I like to
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: make things. I mean, we like it in Ohio to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: make things. We're good at it. And so I think
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: he gets a lot of credit. You should get credit
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: for that. I think he did. He's done a correction
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and it's been a correct correction in that regard. So,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, you've talked about immigration. We Don't necessarily agree
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: there on at least portions of it. But I do
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: agree what he's done.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: You're comfortable with what we're doing with Canada right now?
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Look, here's the data. 31% of Ohio's exports go to Canada.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: They're a major, major customer of ours. So, yeah, we have,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, the one thing that I think business wants,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: farmers want is predictability.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Well, what you're saying is you don't mind some of
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: his emphasis, but the lack of predictability makes it harder
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: to defend?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I think, well, the lack of predictability creates a problem,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I think. And we need, ultimately, and I think this
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: is where most Americans are. We want to be tough
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: in negotiations. We don't want people messing us over. We
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: don't want to sign bad deals. But on the other hand,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: we also know we have to sell overseas. Right. So
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: there seems to me there's a sweet spot in there
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: where most Americans are, most Ohioans are. Be tough, but
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: let's get a deal. Then let's move on. I think
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: that's where most people are.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you look at it. I think you're right.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: I think we want fair trade, but we also want
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: cheaper goods. I mean, the consumer always wants cheaper goods.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And this idea, and we've heard it. I remember you
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: probably ran against Democrats who said, no, Americans will pay
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit more to get tough on Japan. I'm
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: thinking about the 80s and then the early 90s. And
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: it's like, no, they won't. In fact, the consumer spoke
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and Toyota started to eat the lunch of the American automaker.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing that now, that that is,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: we want fair trade, we want our workers treated well,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: and we want cheaper goods. Can you do both?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Well, of course. Look, we all want the best, right?
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: We all want what we want. That doesn't mean, again,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: you have to achieve that balance. And it's not an
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: easy balance to achieve. But we have to manufacture things.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: We have to make things in this country. That's just,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: we can't. To me, it really hit home to me
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: during the pandemic. And as governor of Ohio, you know,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: like other governors, we couldn't get N95 masks in. Why not? Well,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: they're coming from, you know, overseas. They're coming from China.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: They're coming, you know, and we all went through the
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: hell of, uh, uh, you know, getting a shipment to the,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: to the port and then it disappeared or, or, you know,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: just crazy, crazy stuff. And so it kind of drove home,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I think to people, look, we got to make some
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. We got to make ourselves.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: What are the things we should be making ourselves and
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: what should we be comfortable in the global economy?
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't– this is not– shouldn't be a society–
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I think, again, it is trying to achieve that balance.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: It's not we're– during the periods of time when we've
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: done the best, we've tried to achieve some sort of
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: a balance and the pendulum has not gone too far
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: either side. Yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: One of the, I have a column that I wrote
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: recently advocating for that I actually think that the biggest
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: fix for our politics would be if we broke up
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the two major parties and essentially had four major parties.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: And one of the states I think about the most
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: when I think about, you know, Michigan showed us a
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: pretty evenly divided Democratic Party, and you could just sort
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: of see it, right? You sort of, what I guess
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I would call a pro-business, cultural, liberal wing of the
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: party and a progressive, a little more socialist adjacent. And
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: I feel like on the Republican side, you have this
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: sort of free market, conservative, sort of small government where
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I kind of put you in versus the sort of
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: more nativist, nationalist, however you want to describe it, a
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: little more ISIS. you know, for those of us of
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: a certain age, more of the of the Buchanan point
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: of view of of of of politics. I see it
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: in Ohio Republicans. I see that divide a lot. Do
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: you see it or do you just do you think
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: you guys just paper over it better than other state parties?
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Well, look, I think there's some truth in what you're saying.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: You can divide it. But I think you always could,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: any time in our history, you probably could take either
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: one of the major parties and divide them up into
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: different segments, whether it's two segments like you just did.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, no, I believe that a lot. Yeah, no, no, no, no.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: In fact, the reason- Go ahead. Yeah, let me- Well,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the other thing I think, though, that's different here is
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I think that everybody- has moved more towards, hey, we
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: have to make stuff here, if I could put it
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: that way.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I think everybody- Yeah, on the economy, I think that's right.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: So the guy that you're labeling on the Republican Party
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: as a free trade guy, Yeah, he probably thinks she's
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: still or she thinks she's still a free trade person.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: But they've kind of seen what happened during the pandemic
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: when we literally couldn't get stuff here. And we had
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: to go beg people and they held us up and
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: messed with us. And so it's sort of, you know,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: we've reset. This whole thing has been reset, in my opinion.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I like the two party system. I think the two
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: party system has served us by and large very, very,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: very well in this country. And I think once you
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: start fragmenting it, I don't like what I see in
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: some other countries where they've, you know, I just, this
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: brings about stability. I do think that the parties have pulled,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: to some extent, have pulled apart a lot further, particularly
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: the right wing and the left wing, than we have.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, the first presidential election I paid much attention
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: to as a kid was John Kennedy's and Richard Nixon.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: If you go back and look at their positions.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: They weren't very divided.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: They were not very far apart. So we were fighting.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: We thought it was a big battle.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: But that was the Cold War. I mean, you know,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: it's funny.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Well, yes.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Well, we always have a war.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: We always have something, though.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Sure. But I've come to the conclusion that the Cold
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: War era was an outlier in our politics because we were,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: we kept our extremes at bay. And in fact, my
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: favorite examples are 64 and 72.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: The Republicans went too far, right? The country said, oh, no,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: you don't. The Democrats went too far left and the
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: country said, oh, no, you don't. Favoring two guys who
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: were not overly popular, Johnson and Nixon, right? And they
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: win these massive landslides because of who they weren't, not
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: necessarily because of who they were. How do we know this?
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Because look what happened to both of them within four years, right?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: So I look at that and now the lack of a...
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: country pointing nuclear weapons at us, right? And us knowing it,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: you know, back then it sobered our politics. But let
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: me throw another thought at you. I agree, we've always
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: had locally branded versions of the Republican Party. You know,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: an Ohio Republican was different than a Texas Republican. I
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: can tell you this, an Ohio Republican, you remember this
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: in the 90s, you'd more likely be pro-labor than a
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Texas Republican. who would not be pro-Lake. So these distinctions
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: really did exist. The problem is our conversation stopped being
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: local and regional, right? Our political conversation is all national now.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: And it's sort of has forced this binary view of
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: the two parties. And I miss the regional and local
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: distinctions of the two parties, right? A Georgia Democrat was
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: different than a New York Democrat. And that was okay.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: You expected Sam Nunn and Mario Cuomo to maybe agree
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: on civil rights, but they didn't necessarily agree on national
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: security or economic policy. And there was an acceptance of that. Now,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and I don't know whether you can blame the national media,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the social media nationalization. I've got theories, but I'm curious
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: if you feel as if that maybe that's, I think
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: we both agree there's always been distinctions. I think it's
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: just harder to be distinctive inside your own party these days.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I think that's true. I mean, you know, the nationalization
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: of local races is huge. And, you know, you see it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I suppose we've always had it to some extent. I mean,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: you look at the FDR landslides where I can show
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: you counties in Ohio that, you know, elected Democrats for
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: the first time in 32 or 36. And so you've
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: always had some nationalization of What I think is different
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: today is that that nationalization is every day in people's face. And,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: you know, you cannot you cannot avoid it. And so,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: you know, what is happening? People are seeing on whatever
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: cable they're watching or however they're getting they're getting their
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: news online. it dominates. It dominates so much more than
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: it did in the past. So yeah. And I don't
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: know anything to do about it. It's just the way
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Data centers. You don't have to worry about running for office.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: We're watching this. I have my own theories of why
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: data centers are So it's an organic issue. This is
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: not an issue either party tried to create. It's an
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: issue that the people forced upon the parties. And it
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: reminds me, frankly, of how the opioid crisis really sort
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: of was an organic. This was the voters going, hey,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: are you paying attention to this? And politicians were listening.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: What do you make of it? And who's got the
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: most work to do here on this data center issue?
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: And where do you fall on it?
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I think people who have the most work to do,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: the people who want to put in data centers, you know,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: they they have taken stuff for granted. And what you know,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: what I tell people in Ohio, first of all, we
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: pulled back. We had an incentive on taxes break. We
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: pulled that back a number of a number of months ago.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Why did you do it just out of public pressure?
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: So we did it. I thought we'd need to take
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: a deep breath and kind of look at this a
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: little bit, frankly. And that's what we did. But look,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: we believe, I believe, that data centers are helpful to
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: our economy in Ohio. I also believe that the companies
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: that have been pushing the data centers have not been
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: as mindful of the local community as they should have been.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: They're making a lot of money, and frankly, they could
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: have done a lot better by the local community. On
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: the other hand, what I tell people or local communities is,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: if you're negotiating this with a data center, you can
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: get a lot better deal than you have seen in
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: the past. they will give you a good deal. In fact, some, some,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: and what we have is in Ohio examples of places
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: where they did that, did that long, a long time ago,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: got a better, got a, got a better deal. We
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: think communities.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Ought to get a piece of the IPOs and stuff.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Should they, should they get ownership of the, of the company?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Should they get a 1% stake?
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: No, not really, but I think the companies have the
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: ability to say, Hey, we're coming in and you know,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: what's important to you. And, you know, so something we
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: can do with, with, uh, you know, what, what you're
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: paying and your utilities, is there something we can do
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: in regard to your schools? You know, companies have historically
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: done this, you know, mining companies, other companies that come
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: into an area, they, they understand that they have to
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: have that local community support. These companies have not had
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to do that in the past. Now they do. And
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I think they're more than perfectly willing to, um, you know,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: to in fact give that local community more. Look, the
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: other thing is the technology is better today than it
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: was initially. The water, you don't have to use as
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: much water. You can recycle a lot of this water.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of things. So look, it's got
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: to work its way out. But when somebody comes up
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: and is talking about this, they hate these, but then
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: they're using this.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I mean, there's a correlation. It reminds
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: me of the fight over nuclear power in the 80s
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: a little bit. I don't know if that gave you
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: flashbacks to that, right? Which we all want cheaper electricity,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: but man, we don't want nuclear reactors in our backyard.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Well, Chuck, you're going to see that more. I mean,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: nuclear is the way we're going to have to go.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen what France has done, other countries
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: have done. These will become in the next year or
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: two very significant political issues. It's going to be important
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: for leaders to try to explain to people what the
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: basic facts are and be transparent about it as they
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: go through this. We're going to have to move to
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: the nuclear much more than we are. You're already seeing it.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: You're seeing companies investing a lot of money and trying
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: to develop this technology.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Let me I'm going to I'm going to I'm going
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: to land this plane. You have a unique governor's race,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: I assume, from your perspective, because.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Can we quit now?
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I knew that. I knew where you were going. Look,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I know you like Dr. Acton. You know, you know her.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: You consider her. I think probably you probably highly respect her.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: But she's a Democrat. And I know you've endorsed the Republicans. Ramaswamy.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Is Ohio in good hands no matter what, in your opinion?
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Well, look, I think this is truly Ohio's time. And
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: what I've tried to do, I'll answer it this way,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: what I've tried to do and will continue to do
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: is talk about the things that I think are important.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: My lieutenant governor and I, Jim Trestle, on a nine
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: community trip, we've done six, I guess, of these where
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: we literally go out and talk to the leadership of
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: the local community. This is where Ohio is. This is
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: what we think matters. And our emphasis is this is
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: a red hot state. We're bringing companies in. It's our
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: time in history. I think it's the Midwest time. And
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I think it's our time to lead the Midwest. But
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: the only way we can do that is if we
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: continue to invest in our own people. And that is
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: early childhood education, early childhood development. We put a lot
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: of foot. My wife, Fran, took the Dolly Parton Imagination
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Library statewide. We now are sending out 430,000 books every
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: single month to kids. We're doing an eyesight program where
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: we're making sure kids get get the glasses. These are
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: basic fundamental things that will determine the future of the
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: state of Ohio. And so I look at my job
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: now is I'm not running again, but I'm going to
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: go out and continue to talk about whoever the next
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: governor is. You got to keep doing some of these
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: things and you've got to keep investing in infrastructure and
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: you've got to continue to invest in our own people.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Leave nobody behind.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: When you see the debates over COVID become part of
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the race, do you take any of those attacks personally?
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do in this sense. And I've been very,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: this is nothing new. I've been very, very plain. You know,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: when people say that Acton did this or that and
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: closed this or closed that or made this decision, the
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: truth is I made the decision and the buck stops
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: with me. And that's what I say.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: I've been saying that with five. I find the people
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: criticizing Fauci. I'm like, Fauci didn't do anything. The president
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: did these things. He had the power.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Look, when you run for office, you take the responsibility
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: of what happens in the decisions. And you can't say
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: later on. oh, that was my such-and-such director, or that
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: was my such-and-such. I mean, Amy Atkin gave me advice,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: but I also got advice. I was on the phone
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: every day talking to somebody and pulling together as much
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: information as we could and made the decisions. But no,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: the buck stops with me. And so- I have done
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: that in this campaign to at least try to clarify
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: that and say, no, it's my response. If you don't
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: like it, that's fine. And if you disagreed with it,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: it was fine. But that was my decision, not hers.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Does it surprise you Ohio's as close as it looks
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: like it's going to be that it's you think it's
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: back to purple state status and it just took a
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: vacation from being the swing state?
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, you know, everybody kind of.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Figured this was, you know, Ohio was a state for
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: a long, long time. It was the battleground state. You know,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: presidents were in here literally every three days. I counted.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I flew in with Bush many, many times. And then
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: we've had this whole thing where we've had a switch.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: We've got counties... along the Youngstown area, for example, that
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: side of Ohio, the Eastern side. I thought I would
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: never see in my lifetime a Republican elected to anything
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: in Mahoning County or Trumbull County.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: And- But your home area of Cincinnati, I never thought
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: would become Democratic, right? Like Hamilton is a longtime Republican struggle.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you've got, you've, so, and the other thing,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: the other thing that to me is interesting is your counties,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: for example, your Republican counties, your rural Republican counties, used
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: to call them red, and they were 62% Republican. We
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: got some of them are 85% Republican. So we have
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: also segregated ourselves in a sense, unknowingly, I guess, where
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: we live. So the answer to your question is, I
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: don't know. This is a very, very close race for governor.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to stay close. I think it's
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: going to go right down the wire and We'll see.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: And the Senate race, obviously the same. Well, I know
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: you're a Bengals fan more than a Browns fan, right?
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: So you didn't have to weigh in on the Browns
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: starting quarterback.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: I heard enough about it from people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: People have different opinions about that.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was just going to say, it is the
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: one thing unifying Democratic Browns fans and Republican Browns fans.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: They're unified on this one. But let me ask you
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: a Bengals question. Like, every next year is supposed to
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: be Joe Burrow's year. Next year is supposed to be
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Joe Burrow's year is next year. This year. Okay.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: This year. That's the year.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: It's gotta be right.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I think they made some major changes with defense and, uh,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it's a, it's a much stronger
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: team and we'll see what we're fans, right? We always
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: are optimistic, but I, I, I think the Bengals are
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: going to do very well this year.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Well, we, we, uh, The Hopium. Look, you've got the
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: new coaches in Pittsburgh and Baltimore. If there was ever
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: a chance to take advantage, right? This is the year.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of Joe Burrow rookie cards I'd
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: like to sell in my little sports card collection. So
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: I need him to do really well this year.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: So who is your team?
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: I'm a Packers fan.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Wow. We actually went up there last year and saw
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: the Bengals play. I've always wanted to go up there.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: It's a great place to see a game. It's a
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: great atmosphere.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: It is. It was my son and I's one of our–
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: it's been the highlight so far of our father-son trips
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: over the years is our Lambeau trip. That's for sure.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Governor, I appreciate the time.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Jeff.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: And look, you've been in office a long time. No
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: matter what– no matter your politics, that's a devotion to
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: public service and– Thank you for it. Appreciate it.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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