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A Grasp on Brazil · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

0:03
SPEAKER_01: Hello, my friends, and welcome to Q&A.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm Jay Nordlinger,
0:08
SPEAKER_01: and our subject today is Brazil,
0:10
SPEAKER_01: a country that has known some political turbulence,
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SPEAKER_01: but that is a democracy nonetheless.
0:16
It is the largest country in Latin America,
0:18
both in population and in area.
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Our guest today is a young Brazilian intellectual,
0:25
a friend of mine from whom one can learn.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: He is Gilberto Morbach.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: I pronounced his name in an English way.
0:33
In Portuguese,
0:33
I think it's more like Gilberto Morbach,
0:37
but he himself can tell us.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: He is an academic,
0:41
SPEAKER_01: a political scientist,
0:43
SPEAKER_01: a legal philosopher,
0:44
SPEAKER_01: a moral philosopher,
0:46
SPEAKER_01: one of those Wundekinder.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: And Gilberto, or Gilberto, hello.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: And maybe you can first correct my pronunciation.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: How do you
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Pronounce your name, young man, Dr. Morbach, Professor Morbach.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: How do you pronounce your name?
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Jay, my friend, it's an absolute honor for me to be here.
1:08
And your pronunciation is certainly better than maybe my
1:12
English will sound to your
1:13
SPEAKER_00: native speaker audience.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: I will try my best to speak well here.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's a very good pronunciation indeed.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: It's Gilberto Morbach.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Morbach.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:23
Yeah,
1:24
it's probably hard for Americans to pronounce the J and not the
1:27
J,
1:28
right?
1:28
SPEAKER_00: But you've made quite a good work there.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: So is the L more like a W than an L?
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, you're right.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Give it to us again.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Gilberto.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: And the last name?
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Morbach.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you say Bach like in a German way?
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my grandfather was German, so it's not exactly a Brazilian surname.
1:53
I should say not,
1:54
but there are plenty of German names in South America,
1:57
aren't there?
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, indeed.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: Like your model.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about your political model, but your great model Giselle.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: She's from the same state as I am.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: She is one of the great things this state has ever produced.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: She is also a very nice person as well.
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Not only she is beautiful and very famous in what she does and
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very competent in
2:22
SPEAKER_00: what she does,
2:22
SPEAKER_00: she is also a very nice person.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: We hear great things about her around here.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, what state did you grow up in?
2:30
SPEAKER_00: It's a state called Rio Grande do Sul.
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It's in the southern area of Brazil,
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which,
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as you know,
2:36
is a very large country.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's in the southern region.
2:42
The country that is most to the south is Rio Grande do Sul,
2:45
my state,
2:46
sorry.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: And it neighbors Argentina and Uruguay.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's very down in the south.
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SPEAKER_01: What is the largest city in your state?
2:56
SPEAKER_00: The capital city is called Porto Alegre.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's like Happy Harbor or something.
3:03
And so in American terms,
3:07
in US terms,
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when it comes to ethnicity,
3:10
I am a mutt.
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SPEAKER_01: I am a mongrel.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: And same with you?
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: Do you have different ancestral strains?
3:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's very common for, it's a very miscegenated country.
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SPEAKER_00: So we are all mutts around here.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: So here in the South,
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SPEAKER_00: it's very common to have like German heritages and Italian heritages,
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SPEAKER_00: but still it's,
3:37
SPEAKER_00: Brazil was a colony from Portugal,
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SPEAKER_00: as you well know,
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SPEAKER_00: and we had our indigenous population as well.
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There was unfortunately a very large population of slaves
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coming from Africa as well.
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SPEAKER_00: So there are several ethnicities that made up the history of Brazilian
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SPEAKER_00: anthropology,
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SPEAKER_00: if I may say so.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: So if you're a mutter, I'm a mutter as well.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: I assume that you were a bookish kid.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Did you have your nose in a book all the time?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, indeed.
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I don't think I was very good at sports,
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though I often try to pretend that I was.
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SPEAKER_00: But yeah, my main interests were always more on the library.
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And I think this is why I ended up pursuing an academic career
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that I now am fully invested in.
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SPEAKER_00: I very much like to reflect and to read and to pursue my career.
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SPEAKER_00: My academic interests overall,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: I like to teach,
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SPEAKER_00: I like to pursue research,
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SPEAKER_00: I like to write,
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SPEAKER_00: I like mainly to read,
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SPEAKER_00: of course.
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SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I think the academic career that I took very much reflects my personality
4:55
SPEAKER_00: throughout my childhood and my influences overall.
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SPEAKER_00: So yes, I think you're quite correct in your interpretation of me.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: And in what field is your doctorate?
5:07
SPEAKER_00: In legal philosophy,
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SPEAKER_00: I have a very broad interest,
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SPEAKER_00: as you said,
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SPEAKER_00: in moral philosophy and political philosophy,
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but mainly because my research interests ever since my master's
5:19
degree and then my
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SPEAKER_00: PhD and now my postdoctoral fellowship at the University of São Paulo,
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SPEAKER_00: my main concern in my research has always been the rule of law.
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SPEAKER_00: So in that sense,
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I have tried to interconnect these ideas of mine within my
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understanding of the
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SPEAKER_00: rule of law with different areas of political science,
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SPEAKER_00: political philosophy,
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SPEAKER_00: and moral philosophy as well,
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SPEAKER_00: because I think to get a full...
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SPEAKER_00: account of the rule of law,
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SPEAKER_00: you need to interconnect all these areas,
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SPEAKER_00: all these different approaches and insights,
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because I think different authors and different ideas from
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different traditions and
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SPEAKER_00: from different fields can contribute to a better understanding of it.
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I have never been quite content and happy with a too thin
6:08
conception of the rule of
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SPEAKER_00: law and of legality.
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SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, of the very concept of law itself.
6:15
I think it's a very impoverished conception of the rule of law
6:18
to think only as
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SPEAKER_00: formal rules from a centralized elite that produces...
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SPEAKER_00: from social sources, the legal rules that a society abides by.
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SPEAKER_00: I think there's more to the rule of law than that.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: And that led me to read different authors from different areas and so on.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Gilberto,
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SPEAKER_01: you remind me of a famous comment by Ernesto Zedillo,
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SPEAKER_01: or Zedillo,
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SPEAKER_01: who is president of Mexico.
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SPEAKER_01: And he was asked, what are the three things Mexico needs most?
6:50
SPEAKER_01: He said, the rule of law, the rule of law, and the rule of law.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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And as we would say in my American vernacular,
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that's almost the whole ballgame.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And...
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You are a classical liberal and admirer of John Locke and Adam
7:07
Smith and the rest of the guys.
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SPEAKER_01: Hayek, I'm guessing?
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, Hayek too.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And how did you arrive at your views?
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SPEAKER_01: Did they always strike you as natural and right?
7:20
SPEAKER_01: Or did you have a process?
7:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: There was indeed a process.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: There's a very common critique here in Brazil,
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and I think it's true to some extent or maybe to a large extent
7:34
in America as well.
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SPEAKER_00: From the more hard right-wing cultural thinkers,
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they say that the university is usually placed only for
7:44
progressive ideology and
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SPEAKER_00: for leftists and everything,
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SPEAKER_00: at least here in Brazil.
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SPEAKER_00: there's some truth to that.
7:51
So the university and the academic circles are indeed not
7:56
exactly dominated,
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but the vast majority of academic and university professors and
8:05
fellows and
8:07
SPEAKER_00: students even,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: because I think it comes from top down,
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SPEAKER_00: there is indeed a certain dominance from left-wing ideals and ideas.
8:18
So sometimes it's hard for a student or a researcher to get
8:23
some autonomy because
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you are modeled by what your teachers and your professors
8:29
usually tell you to read.
8:31
But there is a mistake as well from the same critics from the
8:35
right,
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I think,
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because they...
8:37
lend themselves too easily from this insight to some sort of
8:41
anti-intellectualism
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that ends up by rejecting the very idea of a university and
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what a university
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SPEAKER_00: should be about.
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So I think there is some truth in saying that there is some
8:54
sort of hegemony from
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SPEAKER_00: the left in the academic circles,
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but I don't think that should lead one to deny the very idea of
9:00
the university,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: So...
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SPEAKER_01: Such an important point, such an important strain of thought.
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SPEAKER_01: I think you see the same thing happening in America, right?
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SPEAKER_00: With the college campuses and everything.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: In spades, yes.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: So at first,
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it wasn't exactly natural for me to go straight into Locke or
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Smith or even more so
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SPEAKER_00: Hayek,
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SPEAKER_00: as you've mentioned.
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SPEAKER_00: But...
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SPEAKER_00: Surprisingly,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe my first insight came not from political philosophy,
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SPEAKER_00: not from philosophy itself,
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SPEAKER_00: but from literature,
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because it was actually reading Dostoevsky's Demons that I
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first realized how
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SPEAKER_00: dangerous political utopias could be.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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a very important feature of left-wing thinking to me has always
9:55
been the utopian mind,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: And from Dostoevsky,
10:02
SPEAKER_00: I went to Albert Camus, the French thinker and writer.
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SPEAKER_00: He rejected the label of a philosopher.
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SPEAKER_00: And a very formative book for me was Albert Camus' The Rebel,
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SPEAKER_00: in which he breaks up with the Marxist tradition.
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SPEAKER_01: Sorry, are you talking about L'étranger in French or a different book?
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SPEAKER_00: No, it's L'Etranger was The Stranger.
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SPEAKER_00: It was one of his first and most important.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: This is something else.
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SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I'm just sure we're on the same page.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: It's an essay.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a nonfiction essay.
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SPEAKER_01: As my grandmother would say, I was absent that day from school.
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SPEAKER_01: I miss the rebel.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: I was absent that day.
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SPEAKER_01: I was absent a lot of days, sir.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's very much like the reading.
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It's not an easy reading at first because he dwells into lots
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of very specific
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SPEAKER_00: thinkers that sometimes he may be
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: from my present day reading,
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he maybe didn't have to go all the way through those
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discussions to the extent that
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SPEAKER_00: he did.
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But I think it was important in the context that he was writing
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because he was
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engaging with Sartre and all the other French intellectual
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thinkers from the left.
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A tradition that Camus himself belonged to a very large extent
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during some
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SPEAKER_00: important period of his life.
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SPEAKER_00: But in the end, he...
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rejected it because he identified the very same thing that I
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identified when I read
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SPEAKER_00: Demons by Dostoevsky,
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SPEAKER_00: which unsurprisingly is one of Camus' favorite books.
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SPEAKER_00: He rejected what he identified as a nihilism from the left.
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SPEAKER_00: And he
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SPEAKER_00: I identified the same thing reading these two authors.
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SPEAKER_00: And that in itself,
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from these insights that came first from literature and then to
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philosophy,
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SPEAKER_00: though,
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SPEAKER_00: like I said,
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SPEAKER_00: Camille rejected the label.
12:01
I then realized that there were different things and different
12:07
ideas other than the
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SPEAKER_00: usual canon or the traditional canon from the university as it is usually
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SPEAKER_00: encountered by students who are first.
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SPEAKER_00: getting into the academic circle and academia and academic life.
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SPEAKER_01: And which thinkers and which authors are in that typical canon?
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SPEAKER_00: There was a very broad influence here in Brazil ever since the 60s,
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SPEAKER_00: I think,
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from the critical thinkers from Germany and continental Europe
12:39
like Herbert
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SPEAKER_00: Marcuse.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: So in America, it's probably the same again, right?
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, when I was in college, he was very popular.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say he was popular.
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SPEAKER_01: I should say he was assigned.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: And not only that,
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there's been a very profound influence as well from
13:00
deconstructionist thinkers like
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Derrida.
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SPEAKER_01: Foucault and Derrida, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: I think, again, there's a similarity to what happens in America, right?
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It seems like some...
13:14
By the way,
13:14
a quick word about Foucault and Derrida in particular.
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SPEAKER_01: I've had guests on this program
13:20
who are alumni of ENS in Paris and who are right of center and
13:25
who study with these two men.
13:28
And almost everyone says they were excellent teachers and you
13:32
could learn a lot
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SPEAKER_01: from them,
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SPEAKER_01: whether you agree to their conclusions or not.
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But they were formidable intellectuals whose thought one wanted
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to be acquainted with.
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SPEAKER_01: And they were very good teachers.
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SPEAKER_01: They just shouldn't dominate the whole world.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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Usually it's maybe not only true in regards to the left,
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but maybe to the right as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Usually the problem is not the original thinker, but the followers.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: The problem is not Nietzsche or the Nietzscheans and so on.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think that's true.
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SPEAKER_00: And I agree.
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SPEAKER_00: They are indeed profound intellectuals.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: They were indeed profound intellectuals.
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SPEAKER_00: And there are.
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SPEAKER_00: good thinkers from the left as well.
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SPEAKER_00: But there is a Portuguese writer.
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SPEAKER_00: He's also based in Brazil.
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SPEAKER_00: He writes for a Brazilian newspaper, João Pereira Coutinho.
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SPEAKER_00: I have mentioned him to you in one of our previous conversations.
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He says that one should have a balanced diet when it comes to
14:32
one's own political
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SPEAKER_00: and literary influences.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's important to get acquainted and to read
14:39
SPEAKER_00: fingers from the left.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: It was very important to me.
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SPEAKER_01: But, Gilberto, what was the sentence you taught me from him?
14:45
SPEAKER_01: It was just a wonderful way of putting it.
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SPEAKER_01: Did it have to do with a sign?
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: He said he could summarize his political philosophy.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: The sign on the hotel room door.
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Which is... Please make up the room.
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SPEAKER_00: Please make up the room or leave me alone or something like that.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you have to turn it, right?
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the government needs to leave you alone.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they have to come in and clean up the room.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a very nice way to put it.
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SPEAKER_01: Do you – I'm just skipping ahead and interrupting you a bit.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a personal pantheon?
15:26
SPEAKER_01: I know you've been to Scotland to commune with Adam Smith.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
15:33
Smith himself was – and it's curious that you ask me that
15:36
because the way I first
15:40
SPEAKER_00: encountered Smith,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: was not on the wealth of nations, which is more commonly the case.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: It was first on the lectures of jurisprudence,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: mainly because of my research in legal philosophy.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: And I realized that there was a very profound thinker there.
16:00
Then I went to read all his works and his biographies of his
16:05
and everything.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And I realized that he's a very,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: surprisingly so,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: a very underrated thinker because it is common to see Adam Smith here and
16:14
SPEAKER_00: everywhere.
16:15
But people have a very partial reading of The Wealth of Nations
16:19
and they forget that
16:20
not only his lectures on jurisprudence,
16:22
as I said,
16:23
but also the theory of moral sentiments.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think there is a continuum in those works.
16:30
I think there's a common thread because a very important
16:33
insight that I learned
16:34
SPEAKER_00: from Smith is that
16:36
SPEAKER_00: We are moral agents, moral beings that do not operate on a moral vacuum.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a very important insight.
16:43
And I also think that critics of the liberal tradition forget
16:47
that liberals
16:48
SPEAKER_00: themselves have had this insight.
16:49
So it is common to think that liberals can only think of
16:53
individuals as abstract
16:55
SPEAKER_00: beings separate from their culture and their communities.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's the case.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a caricature of liberalism.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: That to some extent, some liberals have contributed to.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't think liberalism and liberal thinkers are without their faults.
17:10
I wouldn't even say for certain that I am myself a champion of
17:16
liberalism,
17:17
SPEAKER_00: but I am indeed a champion of the rule of law.
17:20
And I think a best understanding of the rule of law leads one
17:24
to central features
17:26
SPEAKER_00: and tenets of the liberal tradition.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a common connection there.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Who else would be in your pantheon?
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, Camille and Dostoevsky, of course.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Smith, of course.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: John Locke, as you've mentioned, he was a very important thinker to me.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: I would mention, I took some notes here as well of...
17:47
SPEAKER_00: things and people and ideas that I'd like to mention.
17:51
There was a very important figure that I think it's worth
17:53
mentioning here because
17:54
SPEAKER_00: he's very underrated.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure he's known in America.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: He's called José Guilherme Melchior.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: He's a very important Brazilian intellectual,
18:04
SPEAKER_00: and he has written just this amazing book called Liberalism,
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Old and New.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: I think there is a translation into English as well.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Did you say Melchior, like the biblical name?
18:15
SPEAKER_00: It's very similar, but it is Merchior with an R. Oh, gotcha.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: José Guillermo Merchior.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: And he's written this amazing book,
18:25
which works as a critical guide and a critical introduction to
18:31
the main authors and
18:32
SPEAKER_00: the main ideas and the main arguments of the liberal tradition.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: So he was a very important thinker to me as well,
18:38
because he provided me with a guide of what I should read and
18:41
how I should read and
18:42
SPEAKER_00: approach these authors.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
18:44
And it was also important to see that there was a way of
18:50
thinking outside the
18:52
common framework of the progressive agenda of the academia
18:56
without going into the
18:58
SPEAKER_00: anti-intellectualism of some right-wing thinkers and critics,
19:02
SPEAKER_00: right?
19:02
SPEAKER_00: So he offered me this third way or something.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about classical liberalism in Latin America,
19:14
and I've got the late Mario Vargas Llosa and Hernando or
19:22
Hernando de Soto.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: De Soto, yeah.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: And so this is a region of hundreds of millions of people.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: And...
19:31
I think maybe a few classical liberals and endless Peronists,
19:36
populists,
19:38
communists,
19:40
fascists.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: Am I too cynical?
19:45
SPEAKER_00: No, you're absolutely right.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think Brazil,
19:47
SPEAKER_00: as you mentioned in the beginning of our talk,
19:50
is a paradigm example of that in what we are currently facing
19:53
right now in this
19:55
SPEAKER_00: divide between bolsonaristas and lulistas,
19:57
SPEAKER_00: right?
19:58
SPEAKER_00: You have these two polarizing figures in Lula and Bolsonaro,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: one from the left and one from the far right.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Do they have some things in common?
20:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm jumping ahead.
20:11
Are they fellow populists,
20:13
but one is red-tinged and the other is brown or black-tinged?
20:19
SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to put it.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly how I would put it.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: I think there are some differences to their populisms,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: but they are both populists for sure,
20:28
SPEAKER_00: certainly.
20:30
I think Bolsonaro represents and is happy to do so a more
20:34
direct challenge to
20:35
SPEAKER_00: traditional institutions of democracy.
20:38
He doesn't care and he just goes out and says that elections
20:43
are a fraud and he
20:44
doesn't care about the Supreme Court and he's a lot more
20:48
thuggish in a way.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: And
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Lula and the Workers' Party,
20:53
and it is very hard for one to distinguish between the two
20:56
because he's very
20:58
SPEAKER_00: personalistic,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: right?
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Which is a common thread in Latin American populists, right?
21:05
SPEAKER_01: He has always had... Hugo Chavez was just a master populist.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: I consider him sort of a dark political genius.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: I agree, absolutely.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Amlo, too, in Mexico.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Very talented man.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Very dangerous.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Lula himself is a very talented politician.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: He used to be more talented when he first got elected in 2002.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Now I think
21:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: No, he's a grandfather, great-grandfather.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And he's getting more and more unfiltered, right?
21:44
So it is getting more and more common for him to say things
21:49
that he shouldn't be
21:49
SPEAKER_00: saying,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: especially in the domain of international politics.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Is he less clever than he was?
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Less cagey?
21:58
SPEAKER_00: I really don't know.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what's worse.
22:00
I don't know if he's less clever or he just doesn't care
22:04
anymore about hiding some
22:06
SPEAKER_00: of his real ideological views.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what's worse.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: I consider that better.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: I liked it.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate candor.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: even if what we hear is bad.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: But let's start earlier.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: So Lula da Silva.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And let's just get this straight for our listeners and viewers.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Everyone calls him Lula.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: It's not a term of endearment, right?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: His friends and supporters refer to him as Lula.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: His enemies and despisers refer to him as Lula.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: True?
22:38
SPEAKER_01: Never da Silva.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, spot on.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Even in formal context, he's referred to as President Lula.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Even his detractors call him Lula.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: And your question is more interesting than it might sound at first.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: I'll come to that.
22:59
Because I think it connects to one of the main reasons why we
23:03
have never been able
23:05
here in Brazil to produce and to maintain a culture of respect
23:09
to the rule of law
23:09
SPEAKER_00: and to the impersonal institutions of democratic liberalism.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: Because you see, Lula's name is Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, right?
23:20
But now officially his name,
23:22
he changed his name to Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: He officially...
23:27
SPEAKER_00: added the Lula to his name.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: It was a nickname of his.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure now if it was a family nickname or early.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: From the streets.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: He was a street kid, right?
23:41
SPEAKER_01: He was a little kid on the streets who didn't go to school.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: He was very poor.
23:45
He comes from the northern region of Brazil,
23:48
the northeast region of Brazil.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And from very early on,
23:53
he was a syndical leader with labor union and very early on
23:59
identified himself with
24:01
SPEAKER_00: politics in the ample sense of the word politics.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Only later on, he...
24:09
SPEAKER_01: He was in radical union politics.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: He was radical labor politics.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And then maybe his nickname Lula comes from this age.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And
24:25
SPEAKER_00: It is not only the case, I think, at least this is a theory of mine.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: One may very well disagree with that,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's quite symptomatic that people refer to him as Lula.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: As I said,
24:37
SPEAKER_00: I think it represents,
24:37
SPEAKER_00: well,
24:38
one of the reasons why we have never been able to construct a
24:41
solid rule of law
24:43
SPEAKER_00: foundation here in Brazil,
24:44
SPEAKER_00: and I think very much
24:46
SPEAKER_00: The same is true to the rest of Latin America to some large extent.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I think you used the word personalism or a cognate of personalistic.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: This is personalism.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: We're getting a big dose of that in the United States,
24:58
SPEAKER_01: as you well know,
24:59
SPEAKER_01: but we'll stick to Brazil for now.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: But there is also,
25:04
SPEAKER_00: again,
25:05
a connection between what's happening in America right now
25:07
because there is this
25:08
direct war between Donald Trump and the Supreme Court justice
25:12
and all what's
25:14
SPEAKER_00: happening with Bolsonaro.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: I think we'll come to that later.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: But back to Lula.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: The Trump administration says never,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: ever interfere with the internal politics of other countries,
25:24
SPEAKER_01: especially in the Arab world,
25:25
SPEAKER_01: except when you want to,
25:27
SPEAKER_01: as in Germany,
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Brazil,
25:30
SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Big hypocrites.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
25:34
It's the most common thread in authoritarians is that the law
25:39
is what the sovereign says.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Whimsicality, sheer whimsicality.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: So Lula, he's now in his third term, I think.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: He had two other terms and then quite a break, including a prison term.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So in your opinion, sir, professor, yes.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Is Lula mainly a Democrat with a small d?
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Mainly?
26:13
SPEAKER_00: I think it's more ambiguous than that.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Because there's always been this tension.
26:20
The Workers' Party and Lula,
26:22
like I said,
26:22
it's very hard to distinguish between the two.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: They claim democracy when it's useful to them, right?
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Those who defend Lula and the Workers' Party,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: and I'm not only talking about partisans,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about most political scientists here in Brazil,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: they would say that,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: yes,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Lula is a Democrat.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: The most common answer that you will find is that he's mainly a Democrat.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Even...
26:47
SPEAKER_00: from critics of his government and of his policies.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: They also think,
26:51
SPEAKER_00: yes,
26:51
SPEAKER_00: mainly he's a Democrat because,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: well,
26:53
there's been a transition of power and he's never tried to
26:58
sabotage elections like
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Bolsonaro did.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: So he's always mainly operated within a legal framework.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: He was arrested after all.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: He didn't resist it.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: So...
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Take that as you will,
27:11
but some would say that it's a sign that he respected the legal
27:16
decisions.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that... Keep going, keep going, keep going.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's as simple as that because there are several ways...
27:25
SPEAKER_00: in which one can undermine democracy,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: it doesn't really have to be as direct as Bolsonaro's waist,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: right?
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Because Bolsonaro,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: like I said,
27:33
he doesn't care and he just goes bullishly saying that he
27:39
doesn't care about the
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Supreme Court,
27:40
SPEAKER_00: about the law,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: about the rule of law.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't care really about anything.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: The law is what he says.
27:45
Well,
27:45
it's not as caricatural as that,
27:48
but it's almost like he said it literally,
27:51
right?
27:51
SPEAKER_00: And Lula has always played the Democrat, right?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: But it is a common attitude of his and of his fellows,
28:01
his fellow politicians from the Workers' Party to find ways to
28:08
put their people in
28:09
SPEAKER_00: positions of power just differently.
28:12
just enough so that they can control decisions and they control
28:17
everything that
28:17
SPEAKER_00: will be said and done from institutions that should control government,
28:23
SPEAKER_00: right?
28:24
SPEAKER_00: So we call here in Brazil,
28:28
SPEAKER_00: they instrumentalize the positions and offices with people of their own,
28:36
SPEAKER_00: right?
28:36
SPEAKER_00: It's a very common thread of populists here in Latin America as well.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: So
28:42
SPEAKER_00: The answer would be the following.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: If you talk to most political scientists here in Brazil,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: they will say that Lula is mainly a Democrat.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think it is as simple as that.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say he's as anti-democratic as Bolsonaro,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: but I don't think they are really that different in that regard.
29:02
I think they are different in other aspects,
29:04
but not in that one that much.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: Would Lula da Silva be a dictator if it were possible for him?
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I think the main purpose,
29:16
the main goal of the Workers' Party is not to need to become a
29:21
dictator because
29:22
they can get hold of power through elections in a way that they
29:27
control the
29:27
SPEAKER_00: institutions so much that they don't have to use force,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: right?
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Would Bolsonaro be a dictator if he could be?
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: That's the difference.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: No question.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Roberto, let me ask you.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Lula, how long did he spend in prison?
29:43
SPEAKER_01: More than a year?
29:43
SPEAKER_00: I think so, yes.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I think it was around that period of time, yeah.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a very short period.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't much.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think you're quite correct in working with that time.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Is he personally corrupt?
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Is he greedy for money personally?
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Or is it more of a political greed?
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean by that?
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Is he a self-enricher?
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Is that the nature of his corruption?
30:11
SPEAKER_01: Does he have the normal human vice of wanting to accumulate as much money
30:16
SPEAKER_01: personally as possible?
30:20
The original accusations and the original convictions were
30:24
mainly based on very
30:27
SPEAKER_00: personal,
30:28
SPEAKER_00: very shallow things.
30:29
There was an apartment,
30:31
a beach apartment in the state country house,
30:36
right?
30:37
SPEAKER_00: So these were very...
30:39
SPEAKER_00: if one could say so, mediocre.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Relatively trivial things.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about Saudi palaces.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: No, exactly.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about a Putin level of kleptocracy.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: To be fair, he has always denied the accusations, right?
30:59
SPEAKER_00: He has always claimed he was victim of a political conspiracy.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: He always presented himself as a political prisoner.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Even in one of his egomaniac moments compared himself to Nelson Mandela,
31:13
SPEAKER_00: which is absolutely an offense.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: But then again,
31:16
SPEAKER_00: that's always his version of it,
31:18
that he was prosecuted unfairly because of a political
31:23
motivation by the then judge
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Sergio Moro.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Is there any truth to it, Gilberto?
31:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you and I are no fans of Lula da Silva.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Does he have a point or no point?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: He does have a point indeed,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: yes,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: because the convictions were annulled by the Supreme Court because,
31:44
SPEAKER_00: to put it very shortly,
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Modo was considered to be a partial judge,
31:50
SPEAKER_00: right?
31:51
SPEAKER_00: And it is true.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: He really did violate the rule of law and due process of law.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: The judge did.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: The judge did, yes.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: Moro, M-O-R-O.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: M-O-R-O.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: There were several problematic decisions,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: uh,
32:06
on what it comes to respecting the rule of law and due process
32:09
of law and the legal
32:11
SPEAKER_00: procedures.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: And the, the, he didn't go by the book once you say that.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: So, and I'm going to rush you.
32:16
You'll have to forgive me because I'm,
32:18
I'm,
32:18
I'm a rude rushing podcast host.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: You are the politest of Latin American gentlemen.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: And, um, so, um,
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Lula serves two terms as president.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: He succeeded by Dilma Rousseff.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Who's impeached and then succeeded by her vice president, Mr. Temer.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Now, in Italian, that means to fear.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Does it mean the same in Portuguese?
32:51
SPEAKER_01: He can be quite scary, and I think some people actually hear him.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's what the word means in Italian.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: No, yes, I'm joking.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: It means, yes, temer is to be afraid.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: And then comes in, do you say his first name, Jair Bolsonaro?
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Perfect pronunciation, yes.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Jair Bolsonaro.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: So he has his very turbulent four-year term, as we know.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: So he's defeated at the polls by a returning...
33:20
SPEAKER_01: freed from prison, Lula da Silva.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:24
Bolsonaro resigns the presidency rather than having to attend
33:30
the inauguration of his successor.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: He refused to do so.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Did he resign the presidency so as not to have to pass the sash to Lula?
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Didn't he leave early for Florida?
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:46
Yeah,
33:47
as he did because,
33:48
well,
33:48
he was mainly afraid of the charges that were coming his way.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: The charges came.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so here's what I'm going to rush ahead.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: So Bolsonaro is defeated.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Does he attempt a coup d'etat?
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Does he try to overturn the election?
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Because Brazilians had their own January 6th.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Was it on January 1st or 2nd that you had your January 6th?
34:14
SPEAKER_01: It was January 8th.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: What happened?
34:17
SPEAKER_00: So there are two layers to that.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: People say that those people who we had our own,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: our very own capital invasion in January 8th.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And those people mainly were pawns, like useful tools, right?
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Tools of whom?
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Bolsonaro's party?
34:36
SPEAKER_00: Mainly Bolsonaro, because the party is pretty much inexistent.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: It gravitated,
34:41
SPEAKER_00: more personalistic than the workers' party has been his,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: because his party already existed,
34:47
SPEAKER_00: but it was really instrumentalized and gravitated only around Bolsonaro,
34:54
SPEAKER_00: right?
34:54
SPEAKER_01: So as I understand it, our guys, our glorious January 6th heroes,
35:00
SPEAKER_01: sacked only the US Capitol, the legislature.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: I understand your guys,
35:05
SPEAKER_01: your equivalents attacked the legislature,
35:08
SPEAKER_01: the presidential residents,
35:09
SPEAKER_01: and the Supreme Court.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: In other words, all three branches of government.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
35:13
And the Supreme Court was the main target because the Supreme
35:17
Court has always been
35:18
SPEAKER_00: the main target by Bolsonaro and his supporters,
35:21
SPEAKER_00: right?
35:22
SPEAKER_00: And what's happening is that
35:26
Many critics from bolsonaristas themselves to more moderate
35:30
people are discussing
35:33
SPEAKER_00: the way that the Supreme Court has been dealing with the protesters,
35:39
SPEAKER_00: or I don't think one should call them protesters.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: They are indeed vandals, right?
35:43
SPEAKER_00: But the convictions are maybe...
35:49
too harsh to the extent that they are being used as scapegoats
35:55
to the real people
35:58
SPEAKER_00: behind the coup attempt?
36:00
Because what I'm trying to get at is that there was never going
36:04
to succeed a coup
36:05
SPEAKER_00: like that,
36:06
SPEAKER_00: right?
36:06
SPEAKER_00: There was no way it could succeed.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: The real coup attempt was not that invasion.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: They were used as pawns because the real coup plan was
36:17
SPEAKER_00: didn't take place because what they really was later found,
36:22
SPEAKER_00: what they call here in Brazil,
36:23
SPEAKER_00: a Minuta do Golpe.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Some could call it like the coup draft, right?
36:30
Are these the layers you were talking about before I really
36:33
interrupted you?
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: The first layer is the more direct one, which is the invasion, right?
36:39
SPEAKER_00: But the second layer, which is the more, the worst one,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: is that there was indeed a plan,
36:46
SPEAKER_00: a written plan that it was later,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: well,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: not yet legally proved because the process is still taking place,
36:52
SPEAKER_00: but,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: well,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: the evidence is that Bolsonaro himself discussed this plan.
36:57
There was a plan,
36:57
a written plan that was found in one of Bolsonaro's ministers'
37:01
home.
37:02
They were planning to actually declare a state of emergency
37:07
based on this invasion,
37:08
right?
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And they wanted to actually assassinate Alexandre de Moraes, the...
37:13
SPEAKER_00: the justice from the Supreme Court,
37:16
SPEAKER_00: and Lula in order to actually effectivate a coup d'etat,
37:20
SPEAKER_00: right?
37:21
SPEAKER_00: So he didn't attempt the coup for several reasons.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: It didn't take place.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: It didn't work.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't attempted, but it was indeed planned.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I would say.
37:31
Maybe he didn't attempt a coup d'etat,
37:32
but he really did plan a coup d'etat.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Do you think Bolsonaro is guilty as charged?
37:41
SPEAKER_01: All the evidence to me says he's
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
37:44
And the president of the United States says that Bolsonaro is
37:48
being persecuted.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: And for that reason, Brazil is going to be hit with tariffs.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Correct?
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: Now, has this helped Lula da Silva politically?
38:01
Is there a backlash in Brazil against Trump as happened in
38:04
Canada recently?
38:06
When Trump started talking about Canada as a bad actor and a
38:10
bad neighbor,
38:12
SPEAKER_01: and we should annex them and have them as the 51st state,
38:16
SPEAKER_01: it was a great gift to the Liberal Party.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Has Trump given Lula and the left a gift today?
38:26
SPEAKER_00: In some ways,
38:27
SPEAKER_00: yes,
38:27
because Lula is certainly trying to gain some political
38:31
leverage from this,
38:32
SPEAKER_00: even with his slogans like Brazil is sovereign,
38:37
SPEAKER_00: will not accept any interference from outside countries and everything.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: So in a way, it has been to his advantage.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Yankee put out.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Pretty much this, yes.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: But...
38:49
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand,
38:51
SPEAKER_00: if the tariffs really did go through as they were originally planned,
38:55
SPEAKER_00: it could hit Brazil very,
38:57
SPEAKER_00: very harshly,
38:58
SPEAKER_00: right?
38:58
SPEAKER_00: So...
39:01
What strikes me the most as more strange in this is why Trump
39:07
would actually do that.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Because to me,
39:11
SPEAKER_00: to my Brazilian eyes,
39:12
Trump has always seemed like he was more interested in himself
39:18
and his own personal
39:20
SPEAKER_00: project and his own passion and love for power.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: And
39:25
One explanation that one could perhaps have is that he
39:28
identifies himself in what
39:30
he sees in Bolsonaro in the sense that they feel like they're
39:33
being persecuted by
39:35
SPEAKER_00: the liberal elites and,
39:37
SPEAKER_00: well,
39:38
SPEAKER_00: this old populist rhetoric.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Deep state.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
39:43
And the other hypothesis is that it is easy for him to use this
39:47
as a way to...
39:49
maybe deliver a message to the BRICS and the other countries
39:53
that he can do
39:54
SPEAKER_00: whatever he wants to,
39:55
because there's really no real political cost for him to do
39:59
this against Brazil.
40:01
in the sense that Brazil doesn't really represent that much of
40:04
a risk in that sense.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure which of the hypotheses is more correct,
40:09
if it is a more subjective personal one in that Trump
40:14
identifies himself in this
40:16
SPEAKER_00: situation that he perceives that Bolsonaro is going through,
40:19
SPEAKER_00: because again,
40:21
SPEAKER_00: This is paranoia.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: This is conspiracy.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: He is not being persecuted.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: The problems in the way that Alexandre de Moraes,
40:29
SPEAKER_00: the Supreme Court Justice,
40:30
SPEAKER_00: is conducting things are others.
40:32
And there are several problems,
40:34
but not to the point of Bolsonaro being a victim of the system.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Not at all.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Gilberto, when is the next Brazilian presidential election?
40:44
SPEAKER_01: In 2026.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: What month?
40:46
SPEAKER_01: October.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: October, yes.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: Do you think there will be an election that month?
40:51
SPEAKER_00: I think so, yes.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: There will be an election.
40:53
I don't think it's going to be a good one,
40:54
but I think there will be an election.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Will Lula run again?
40:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: Can he?
40:59
SPEAKER_00: He can run again, yes.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: He will be the nominee of his party?
41:04
SPEAKER_01: There are no term limits in Brazil?
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Two.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, two consecutive?
41:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Lula's already had two.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: He's about to finish three.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: You can get reelected, right?
41:18
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: In this subsequent election.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: So you can have two in a row.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Take a break,
41:23
SPEAKER_01: go to prison,
41:24
SPEAKER_01: as Lula did,
41:25
SPEAKER_00: relax in prison,
41:26
SPEAKER_01: and run again,
41:27
SPEAKER_01: be elected,
41:28
SPEAKER_01: and have two more terms.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: How old is Lula?
41:34
SPEAKER_00: Lula is right now.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Approximately.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: He's approximately 80.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure he has reached his 80th birthday yet, but maybe 79, 78.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Does he still have his marbles, if you know that English slang?
41:52
SPEAKER_00: I think so, yes.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's losing it, but he still has it.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: All right.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: We've had some experience with that in the United States.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you did have it.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it was worse in America.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: But I think it was more – Lula still has some years in him.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: Is Bolsonaro now in court for organizing a coup attempt?
42:21
SPEAKER_01: Is Bolsonaro facing charges right now?
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
42:24
he is for the coup attempt and for causing up with Trump in
42:29
order to sabotage
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Brazilian sovereignty in the rhetoric of Lula.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: When will these charges be settled?
42:35
SPEAKER_01: When will this case or cases be settled?
42:39
There's no specific date for it to happen because there are
42:42
always recourses,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: legal recourses,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: and defense comes up with different theses and everything.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: But it's a slow process, really.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: If Bolsonaro is convicted...
42:54
SPEAKER_00: He's currently ineligible,
42:56
so he will not run anyway because he was convicted before in
43:01
the electoral process.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Bolsonaro, yeah.
43:03
Bolsonaro is not a candidate regardless of the...
43:06
You don't think he will attempt to run anyway?
43:09
SPEAKER_00: He cannot, legally.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Regardless of the coup process,
43:15
because he was already convicted on a different process related
43:19
to electoral
43:20
SPEAKER_00: charges.
43:21
So he's already ineligible,
43:23
but he's still the most dominant force on the right.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: So he cannot himself run for office.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: but he'll certainly pick the right candidate.
43:33
So it's going to be Lula against Bolsonaro,
43:35
regardless of being Bolsonaro himself.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: So Bolsonaro will be behind the throne regardless?
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Probably so, yeah.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: It is an open question to know how much,
43:48
SPEAKER_00: because we don't know as of now who will run in his place.
43:52
There are several people who have already discussed the
43:55
possibility of his wife
43:56
SPEAKER_00: running for office.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: Then you have his son.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: So common.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: So common.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: We have that in America.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: Could be the next.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: I was going to talk about Florida politics.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: In Alabama, Governor George Wallace was succeeded by his wife, Lurleen.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
44:17
It sounds to me that,
44:19
well,
44:19
I want to ask you some more about Bolsonaro first.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm a big hypocrite,
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Gilberto,
44:25
SPEAKER_01: because I'm always saying we should not get hung up on terms,
44:29
SPEAKER_01: spend too much time on terms,
44:30
SPEAKER_01: on vocabulary,
44:32
SPEAKER_01: yet I spend a lot of time on vocabulary.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Is Bolsonaro a rightist and a fascist in the classic European sense?
44:43
SPEAKER_01: Or is he more like a traditional Latin American caudillo and peronista?
44:51
SPEAKER_01: How would you classify him?
44:54
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a mixture of both, right?
44:59
People on the right have always said that it is alarmist to
45:03
classify Bolsonaro as a
45:04
SPEAKER_00: fascist and that it would mean degrading the use of the word.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: And if everyone's a fascist, then nobody's a fascist.
45:12
I think they're right in abstract terms because really,
45:15
if everyone's a fascist,
45:16
then nobody is.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: But Bolsonaro has flirted very closely with Bolsonaro.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: fascist ideology.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: He's anti-democratic and illiberal.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
45:26
The only cause of concern for me to classify him as a downright
45:32
fascist is the risk
45:33
SPEAKER_00: of anachronism and some sort of imprecision,
45:36
SPEAKER_00: but not because I think he's too far off in his intentions.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: So I would classify him maybe as a Viktor Orban, if that makes sense.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, sure.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: I think it's closer to that.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Lula da Silva.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I am unforgivable is a strong word,
45:57
SPEAKER_01: but he's a great supporter of the Castros in Cuba.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: And Lula da Silva was briefly in his youth or in his younger years,
46:08
SPEAKER_01: a political prisoner himself.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about this recent term.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: Way back.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:14
And he expressed no sympathy,
46:16
in fact,
46:16
quite the opposite,
46:17
for Cuban political prisoners.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Is Lula da Silva... Is da Silva... Is he a kind of commie?
46:26
SPEAKER_01: Or is he a leftist?
46:29
SPEAKER_01: Is he a red?
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Is he pink more than red?
46:33
I mean,
46:35
his admiration for the Castros,
46:37
I think,
46:38
says a lot about the man.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: Is he more...
46:43
SPEAKER_01: commie or more social democratic in your judgment.
46:49
I think your question is a very important one because that
46:55
explains perfectly,
46:56
that summarizes perfectly why I hesitated in saying that Lula
47:00
is a Democrat,
47:01
SPEAKER_00: right?
47:02
SPEAKER_00: Because like I said,
47:02
SPEAKER_00: if you talk to most political scientists here in Brazil,
47:05
they will say that Lula is a Democrat because he respected
47:08
democratic processes.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: And he really did to some extent, right?
47:12
SPEAKER_00: To a very large extent.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: In that sense, he is a Democrat.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: But you mentioned something very important.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: How can you be a Democrat?
47:19
And at the same time,
47:20
you shake hands with Chavez and Maduro and Kirchner and
47:26
Castros,
47:27
right?
47:28
SPEAKER_01: I guess you can.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: Both Trudeaus were admirers of the Castros in Canada.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: But I think there are different levels to that.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: Pierre Trudeau asked Fidel Castro to be a pallbearer at his funeral.
47:40
there are different levels though you're quite right but you
47:45
have for example not
47:47
only that you also have Lula hesitating very much and even not
47:54
doing so condemning
47:56
Putin's invasion of Ukraine so I think he's too much of a
48:03
pragmatist for me to say
48:05
SPEAKER_00: that he's a rat but I think
48:10
SPEAKER_00: you know, a small light shade of red, right?
48:15
SPEAKER_01: Pink, pink, rose, light rose.
48:19
Or maybe,
48:21
I don't know if it's the correct word in English,
48:24
a chameleon,
48:24
you know,
48:25
the reptile.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure, a chameleon, yeah.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: So deep down he's red, but he cares.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: I'll teach you a phrase.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Please.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: Herbert Hoover,
48:35
SPEAKER_01: President Hoover,
48:37
SPEAKER_01: called his successor,
48:39
SPEAKER_01: Franklin D.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: Roosevelt,
48:40
SPEAKER_01: quote,
48:40
SPEAKER_01: a chameleon on plaid.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Gilberto, the question was just only hypothetical.
48:49
Because I believe that Lula da Silva has never lost a
48:53
presidential election.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: He has.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: Prior to his first election, he lost a couple of them.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Did he readily concede defeat?
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes, he did.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: That says something about him.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, again, there's some ambiguity to that.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he conceded defeat, but...
49:12
The very next day,
49:13
the Workers' Party was trying to impeach the elected
49:16
presidents,
49:17
right?
49:17
SPEAKER_00: So he didn't go as far as planned to assassinate him as Bolsonaro did.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: So we're on our closing minutes here.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: I just want to remind people that we're talking to,
49:28
SPEAKER_01: again,
49:28
SPEAKER_01: I'll go all American on you,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: Gilberto Morbach or Gilberto Morbach.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: Beautifully put.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: And he, a formidable intellectual, one of my favorite.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: And on whose faculty are you, professor?
49:48
SPEAKER_01: What faculty do you serve on?
49:49
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: What is your institution?
49:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm a professor at the University of São Paulo, USP, USP.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: And you're teaching?
49:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm a fellow researcher.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: I am a co-founder with Professor José Reinaldo de Lima Lopes,
50:05
SPEAKER_00: my supervisor of the Research Center for Law and Justice.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: So I teach short-term courses and I develop events and seminars and...
50:18
We try to run institutional partnerships with international
50:23
institutions.
50:24
We have a permanent seminar series on the rule of law with the
50:28
University of Messina in Italy.
50:30
So several research projects that gravitate around the grand
50:36
area of law and
50:38
SPEAKER_00: philosophy,
50:38
SPEAKER_00: and more specifically,
50:40
SPEAKER_00: in my case,
50:40
SPEAKER_00: the rule of law.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: Here are a few questions for you at the end, maybe three, certainly two.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: For the likes of you and me, I'm an American conservative.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm a great respecter of liberal democracy and the rule of law.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: For the likes of you and me, is there anyone to root for in Brazil?
51:02
Or do we have no one but illiberals to the left and illiberals
51:05
to the right?
51:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: There are some people we can root for.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: I have a personal favorite of mine.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: I'll talk about him soon.
51:13
The favorite to run that is not exactly Lula or Bolsonaro is
51:18
the current governor of São Paulo.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: His name is Tarcísio de Freitas, right?
51:24
SPEAKER_00: He's mainly seen as a pragmatist, but a very competent politician.
51:30
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: He has been a very competent public administrator, right?
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Would people call him a technocrat?
51:39
SPEAKER_01: Because in my experience with populists here,
51:42
SPEAKER_01: when they say technocratic,
51:44
SPEAKER_01: they're really using a synonym for competent.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: In my opinion.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: No, you're correct.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: And the same applies here.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: Some people on the left use technocrat as a bad word.
51:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: As an offense.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: But I agree it's the same.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: But there is one.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Usually means they're smart, honest, and competent.
52:06
SPEAKER_00: But there is to me a fundamental problem in Tarsisio.
52:09
that he's too much of a pragmatist in the sense that he doesn't
52:14
really care.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
52:18
SPEAKER_00: he constantly flirts with Bolsonaro in order to gain the votes of the
52:22
SPEAKER_00: Bolsonaristas,
52:22
SPEAKER_00: right?
52:23
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
52:24
One can understand that politically wise because someone needs
52:29
votes to get them.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: He's a politician.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: But I think there's a limit to that.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are some hands you don't shake.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: We were talking earlier about the Castros and about Maduro.
52:40
SPEAKER_00: And we are now talking about Bolsonaro, right?
52:44
SPEAKER_00: Some lines you just don't cross, right?
52:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think he goes too far in crossing that line.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: I understand that one needs to have
52:53
SPEAKER_00: a tolerant stance in order to speak to a broader audience.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: I think that's fundamental even to a Democrat.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: But he goes as far as sucking up to Bolsonaro and his followers, right?
53:07
SPEAKER_01: Just so you know,
53:07
SPEAKER_01: here in America,
53:08
SPEAKER_01: there are people who call themselves conservatives who love Bolsonaro.
53:12
And Bolsonaro is a star of CPAC,
53:14
as you know,
53:14
which stands for conservative.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: And CPAC held an event in Brazil under Bolsonaro's wing.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: Do you regard Bolsonaro as in any sense a conservative?
53:26
SPEAKER_00: To my conception of conservatism, not at all.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: He's...
53:30
SPEAKER_00: to intellectually limited to be a conservative.
53:36
And he doesn't really respect the central tenets of the
53:41
conservative tradition.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: So he's at best a reactionary.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: That's what I would say.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: So who's the politician you favor?
53:47
SPEAKER_00: You're going to say that you're a politician you like.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
53:50
the one that I like is really an underdog because he wants to
53:53
be president,
53:53
but I'm certain that he will never get the votes he needs to be
53:57
president.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: He is called Eduardo Leite.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: He is the current governor of Rio Grande do Sul, my state.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: Leite sounds like milk.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: It's the same word.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: Eduardo Leite.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: It would be Eduardo Milk.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: And he is a technocrat in the sense that we were now talking, right?
54:17
SPEAKER_01: Meaning not a crook, someone who knows what he's doing.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: God damn him for that.
54:24
God damn him for knowing what he's doing and for not cozying up
54:27
with populists and
54:28
SPEAKER_00: authoritarianism as well.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: And he doesn't go as far as shaking hands with Bolsonaro.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like he has no chance.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: So we're doomed.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: We're doomed to root for the underdog who'll never win the election.
54:43
So our best hope is a technocrat that doesn't mind shaking
54:46
hands with Bolsonaro.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: It's as bad as it sounds.
54:51
Gilberto,
54:52
this may be a painful question because you're a Brazilian
54:57
patriot.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: You know this phrase that's more than 100 years old, I think.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: No, not more than 100 years old.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: Ah.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: but maybe 75 years old.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: Brazil, country of the future.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: Country of the future.
55:16
I think my beloved Stefan Zweig wrote a book called Brazil,
55:20
country of the future.
55:23
SPEAKER_01: And the joke,
55:24
SPEAKER_01: the mordant,
55:25
maybe painful joke is Brazil is always the country of the
55:30
future that is never
55:31
SPEAKER_01: occurring.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: But one day it might happen.
55:36
And I wonder,
55:39
you're a young man,
55:42
what do you think of the future of Brazil?
55:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that democracy,
55:50
SPEAKER_01: liberalism,
55:50
SPEAKER_01: the rule of law,
55:51
SPEAKER_01: let's say,
55:53
can take root in Brazil and perhaps have an influence on the
55:59
region as a whole?
56:02
SPEAKER_00: This is maybe pessimistic of me,
56:03
SPEAKER_00: but I think Brazil is doomed to be the country that never was,
56:07
SPEAKER_00: right?
56:07
SPEAKER_00: Because there was a very short period in our history,
56:11
SPEAKER_00: the then president,
56:13
SPEAKER_00: Fernando Henrique Cardoso,
56:15
SPEAKER_00: right?
56:16
SPEAKER_00: Before Lula's first term.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: That was a very good government with,
56:23
SPEAKER_00: well,
56:23
SPEAKER_00: it had its problems,
56:24
SPEAKER_00: of course,
56:25
because we're talking about human institutions and human
56:27
fallibility here,
56:28
but it was as close as a normal democratic government as one
56:34
can have with liberal
56:38
SPEAKER_00: economic policies,
56:39
SPEAKER_00: with an opening to democracies and the rule of law and
56:48
an impersonal account and an impersonal way of doing things and
56:53
running office and
56:54
SPEAKER_00: running the government.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's been lost, really.
57:00
When I look back at the legacy of Fernando Henrique Cardoso and
57:04
the future,
57:05
SPEAKER_00: what the future might hold,
57:07
SPEAKER_00: it's very bleak,
57:08
SPEAKER_00: very bleak indeed,
57:09
SPEAKER_00: because there's this divide between bolistas and bolsonaristas.
57:14
SPEAKER_00: And what concerns me the most, because at this very podcast,
57:18
SPEAKER_00: I have been very critical of Lula, right?
57:20
SPEAKER_00: But it has also been... I've been very clear.
57:23
SPEAKER_00: I hope I've been clear on that.
57:25
I have absolutely no respect for Bolsonaro and his fellow
57:29
Bolsonaristas,
57:30
right?
57:30
SPEAKER_00: And the problem is that...
57:32
SPEAKER_00: While Democrats overall here are very happy and very ready to,
57:38
SPEAKER_00: and rightly so,
57:39
SPEAKER_00: to say that Bolsonaro is an illiberal populist,
57:42
SPEAKER_00: authoritarian,
57:43
SPEAKER_00: democratic leader,
57:45
SPEAKER_00: they are not willing to admit that Lula has its serious and grave faults,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: right?
57:53
There is some sort of paralysis of critical judgment in the
57:58
intellectual elites here in Brazil.
58:00
SPEAKER_00: They conceive...
58:02
of defeating bolsonaro as this grand end without realizing that
58:08
the conditions that
58:09
led to bolsonaro remain the same right because when you have
58:13
lula and the workers
58:15
party for so long in power with this rhetoric of us against
58:19
them and the people
58:21
SPEAKER_00: versus the elites people feel ostracized and bolsonaro
58:26
SPEAKER_00: with all his terrible problems.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: Like I said, he's an illiberal, incompetent populist, a demagogue.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: I have, like I said, no respect for him.
58:33
But he was the first person that was able to galvanize this
58:39
very large segment of
58:40
SPEAKER_00: the population that didn't feel represented.
58:43
SPEAKER_00: So you can defeat Bolsonaro, but there will be another Bolsonaro.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: His son,
58:47
he's the one who's there in the CPAC and talking to Steve
58:50
Bannon and talking to
58:52
SPEAKER_00: Trump,
58:52
SPEAKER_00: Eduardo de Bolsonaro,
58:53
SPEAKER_00: right?
58:54
SPEAKER_00: He will be a force.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: And even if we're not talking about him, there will be another Bolsonaro.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: if we don't address the conditions that led to one in the first place.
59:03
And I don't think the intellectual elites are doing a very good
59:06
job in recognizing
59:08
SPEAKER_00: the disambiguity of Lula and the Workers' Party in regards to democracy.
59:14
SPEAKER_00: It's very easy to just say,
59:15
SPEAKER_00: to answer that,
59:16
SPEAKER_00: well,
59:16
SPEAKER_00: he's a Democrat because he respected elections,
59:19
SPEAKER_00: right?
59:20
SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't tell us the whole story, the full picture, right?
59:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to get the full picture so that we can move on.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: Well,
59:29
SPEAKER_01: ladies and gentlemen,
59:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you can see why I admire this young man,
59:34
SPEAKER_01: this young scholar so much,
59:36
SPEAKER_01: and why I wanted him to speak to all of you.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: You're fartsy generous.
59:41
SPEAKER_01: No, it's a fact, and we're all wiser about Brazil.
59:45
SPEAKER_01: I am Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A,
59:48
SPEAKER_01: and our guest has been,
59:50
SPEAKER_01: again,
59:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to butcher this lovely name,
59:53
SPEAKER_01: Gilberto Morbach.
59:56
M-O-R,
59:57
and then Bach like Johann Sebastian,
59:59
meaning stream or brook,
1:00:01
B-A-C-H,
1:00:03
Gilberto Morbach.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, and see you for the next Q&A.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Gilberto.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: So long.