Latest / Phantom Journey's Podcast / #112 - Tokoloshe

Transcript

#112 - Tokoloshe · Phantom Journey's Podcast

0:18
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Phantom Journeys Podcast with your mortal hosts, Max McCurdy and Kid Smith.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Telling tales and the legends that scare us the most.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: This podcast is brought to you by the Alien Soda Company, your connection to pop culture and paranormal themed merch.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Alien Soda Company dot shop for all things out of this world.
0:53
SPEAKER_03: Hey Ken.
0:55
SPEAKER_03: Hey there, Matthew.
0:57
SPEAKER_03: Use my full name, that's weird.
0:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, you know.
0:59
SPEAKER_03: Usually like my my Margo's matchup.
1:01
SPEAKER_03: What?
1:02
SPEAKER_03: But for you, we just can't.
1:04
SPEAKER_04: I don't know your middle name, so I can't do the whole uh Matthew Bowdabda Dark.
1:09
SPEAKER_03: There you go.
1:10
SPEAKER_03: One day.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: One day you'll know.
1:12
SPEAKER_03: One day.
1:13
SPEAKER_04: Is it Marie?
1:14
SPEAKER_03: No.
1:15
SPEAKER_03: Because that'd be weird.
1:17
SPEAKER_04: That's why I just thought I'd ask.
1:23
SPEAKER_03: There has been weirder things.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, so how how are you doing, Ken?
1:27
SPEAKER_04: I'm doing pretty good.
1:29
SPEAKER_04: Pretty good.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: Um exciting happening in the past couple of weeks.
1:34
SPEAKER_04: No.
1:35
SPEAKER_04: Had the work done by the contractor in my little man cave.
1:39
SPEAKER_04: I've been to work and home.
1:42
SPEAKER_04: Work and home, that's it.
1:44
SPEAKER_04: Away we go.
1:45
SPEAKER_04: Um no, that's about it at this moment.
1:50
SPEAKER_04: I do have this.
1:51
SPEAKER_04: So now that I'm in the burbs.
1:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:54
SPEAKER_04: The burbs.
1:55
SPEAKER_04: I have this.
1:56
SPEAKER_04: I have a backyard.
1:57
SPEAKER_04: I never had a backyard before.
1:59
SPEAKER_04: I had a little patio, but it wasn't very comfortable.
2:02
SPEAKER_04: I actually have a I have a grass.
2:04
SPEAKER_04: I have trees.
2:06
SPEAKER_04: I have fruit trees.
2:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
2:07
SPEAKER_04: I have a place with the like an awning.
2:09
SPEAKER_04: I have a legitimate front and backyard now.
2:12
SPEAKER_03: Very cool.
2:13
SPEAKER_03: That's pretty amazing for me.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: Anyway.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: So I I do have a message for the people of LA though.
2:18
SPEAKER_03: What's that?
2:19
SPEAKER_03: And technically the people of the 101.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: If you're driving on the 101, slow F down.
2:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yes.
2:26
SPEAKER_03: And if you're on my ass as I'm driving, and the the because I don't drive in the fast lane.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: I drive in, you know, the other the order lane.
2:38
SPEAKER_03: I don't.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: But the one next to it.
2:41
SPEAKER_03: See a license plate that says what does my license plate say again?
2:46
SPEAKER_04: You shouldn't give out your license plate number.
2:48
SPEAKER_04: Well, not my number.
2:49
SPEAKER_04: Oh.
2:49
SPEAKER_04: But if you see the license plate frame.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: A year 51 escape B.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: And if you're like an inch away from my bumper, guess what?
2:56
SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna do.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: Uh not gonna stop.
3:00
SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna get out of your way.
3:02
SPEAKER_03: I might even slow down a little bit.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't have the people that have been humbling this week.
3:07
SPEAKER_04: You know, those little Lamborghini uh uh SUVs, they're the worst.
3:12
SPEAKER_04: Oh my god.
3:13
SPEAKER_04: They get right on your ass, flash your lights.
3:15
SPEAKER_04: I just kind of let my foot off the gas.
3:17
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
3:17
SPEAKER_03: Just you know what?
3:18
SPEAKER_03: I'm the only speed limit.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: So are you?
3:20
SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to give a little messy update to people.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: And yes, I will not slow down or get over.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: Unless your lights are flashing.
3:30
SPEAKER_03: And if I get over and your lights are still flashing, then that's gonna be a problem.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: Because I'm the problem.
3:36
SPEAKER_03: But for most of it, if you're a cop, I'll get out of your way.
3:40
SPEAKER_03: But if you're gonna ride my ass, you better buy me dinner.
3:44
SPEAKER_04: Anyways, and he's not a cheap date from right here.
3:48
SPEAKER_04: So what I was saying, I was gonna say was uh I have a backyard.
3:52
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
3:52
SPEAKER_04: So at night before I go to bed, I usually go out there about an hour before I really need to go to bed.
3:57
SPEAKER_04: And I sit out there and it's dark, and we're away from enough from the city that there's not as much light pollution.
4:04
SPEAKER_04: I can actually see the stars.
4:05
SPEAKER_04: No I'm I'm able to sit there and I look for alien spaceships.
4:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
4:10
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
4:11
SPEAKER_04: And I see at least five every night.
4:12
SPEAKER_04: Five alien did you see uh alien?
4:15
SPEAKER_04: I see I see satellites, spoiled by that's what that's what everybody uh that's what everybody says are alien spaceships because you know they're lights in the sky and kind of they kind of go from one side to another.
4:27
SPEAKER_04: UFOs and not UAVs.
4:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: So that's that's but one night, yes, I actually started thinking like, oh wait, I might actually be seeing something.
4:37
SPEAKER_06: Oh yeah.
4:38
SPEAKER_04: But the problem is that I saw them anyway.
4:41
SPEAKER_04: What I saw was a confluence of three uh uh satellites kind of coming together, and therefore, but I saw that they were bright, they were brighter than most satellites, but there were three lights and they're traveling in straight lines, like satellites.
4:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but they were the two were like traveling almost parallel to each other, and a third one was coming up like right behind.
5:02
SPEAKER_04: So like they're probably communication satellites, but they were traveling at different speeds, so they were probably at different depending on each other, though.
5:08
SPEAKER_04: Well, they were probably at different altitudes, but when I saw them, they kind of matched up, and there for a while I was watching this three-point triangle going across the sky, and they were brighter than normal satellites.
5:21
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, that's cool, but then after a while, you the more you watch it, the more the you know one kept going, and the other one broke up into you know the the triangle broke up into three separate lights and they were satellites, but yeah.
5:34
SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine looking out your window and seeing that tree, that mold just at that one just where it's like tree lights going across the sky, you're like, what the fuck did I see?
5:42
SPEAKER_03: And you look away, you're gonna think that was UFO.
5:44
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
5:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, it's absolutely a second later they would have just dissipated and just Yeah, they would they would have kept going because they were going different speeds.
5:50
SPEAKER_04: I just happened to be at the the part where they came together to make it look like a triangle.
5:54
SPEAKER_03: That, my friends, is called a quinkin.
5:56
SPEAKER_04: It was pretty freaking cool though.
5:57
SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh look at that.
6:00
SPEAKER_04: It is gone.
6:01
SPEAKER_03: And they're gone.
6:02
SPEAKER_04: But that was cool.
6:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so we're gonna get into a really cool episode today.
6:06
SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
6:07
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
6:08
SPEAKER_04: But you haven't heard it yet.
6:09
SPEAKER_03: I know, but every episode from you can is awesome.
6:12
SPEAKER_03: Oh, we have to say that too much.
6:15
SPEAKER_04: Just every other episode.
6:18
SPEAKER_03: But we're gonna take a little short break, and when we get back, we're gonna get into the episode.
6:23
SPEAKER_04: We're gonna learn about the tokolosh.
6:25
SPEAKER_03: The tokolosh.
6:27
SPEAKER_04: Isn't that a fun word?
6:28
SPEAKER_04: That's a fun word.
6:29
SPEAKER_04: Tokolosh.
6:29
SPEAKER_04: That's why.
6:30
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I gotta look into this.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: We'll be back with the tokolosh.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned, we'll be right back.
6:57
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7:23
SPEAKER_03: And we're back.
7:24
SPEAKER_03: We are back with the tokolosh.
7:26
SPEAKER_03: With the tokolosh.
7:27
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
7:28
SPEAKER_03: It's like a toblerone.
7:31
SPEAKER_03: No.
7:31
SPEAKER_03: No, okay.
7:32
SPEAKER_03: No.
7:32
unknown: Okay.
7:33
SPEAKER_04: No, not really.
7:35
SPEAKER_04: So remember a couple weeks ago I talked about the uh Malamba.
7:39
SPEAKER_04: Mamba Malambo.
7:41
SPEAKER_04: Malambo, you're right.
7:42
SPEAKER_04: I had it wrong.
7:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh that was from South Africa.
7:47
unknown: Yes.
7:47
SPEAKER_04: And in researching that one, I came across the Topolosh.
7:50
SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
7:51
SPEAKER_04: So this one's also from South Africa, and this one's just too cool to leave.
7:55
SPEAKER_04: You know.
7:56
SPEAKER_03: Shout out to South Africa and shout out to Africa.
7:59
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
8:01
SPEAKER_03: The whole of Africa.
8:02
SPEAKER_03: Every single living creature.
8:05
SPEAKER_04: I was trying to think of the Toto.
8:08
SPEAKER_04: I was trying to think of the Toto song, but I couldn't get the lyrics in my head quick enough.
8:12
SPEAKER_04: I guess it rains down in Africa.
8:14
SPEAKER_03: It rains down in Africa.
8:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:17
unknown: Yes.
8:18
SPEAKER_04: I got this song in my head.
8:20
SPEAKER_04: Uh the Tokolosh is best is the best known South African Inguni tradition.
8:28
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
8:29
SPEAKER_04: Especially the Zulu and Sosa uh context through versions of the belief spread much more widely.
8:36
SPEAKER_04: The dictionary of South African English describes it as a small hairy water spirit or goblin.
8:41
SPEAKER_04: I love goblins.
8:43
SPEAKER_04: Whenever you got a little creature that's a goblin, you know they're up no good.
8:47
SPEAKER_04: Traditionally mischievous, and guess what?
8:50
SPEAKER_04: They're sexually aggressive.
8:52
SPEAKER_04: Sexually aggressive?
8:54
SPEAKER_04: Sexually aggressive.
8:55
SPEAKER_04: Like dolphins?
8:56
SPEAKER_04: I've never met a dolphin that was that aggressive.
8:59
SPEAKER_04: I mean they always come up with some really cool.
9:01
SPEAKER_03: I think dolphins are very sexually aggressive.
9:05
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
9:06
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, that's what I hear.
9:08
SPEAKER_04: Traditionally, well, if there are any dolphins out there listening, please send us a response.
9:25
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry, about knee high, humanoid, hairy, and sometimes baboon-like.
9:30
SPEAKER_04: Knee high, you say, huh?
9:32
SPEAKER_04: I guess it depends on how tall yours.
9:35
SPEAKER_04: That's true.
9:36
SPEAKER_04: What makes the tokolosh interesting is that there really isn't one definitive anatomical description.
9:42
SPEAKER_04: Depending on the community and period, it can be described as a dwarf-like hairyman, a goblin, an animal human hybrid, a water spirit, invisible creature, or supernatural familiar belonging to a witch.
10:01
SPEAKER_04: And that's with a W, not a B.
10:03
SPEAKER_04: Some traditions even describe bizarre anatomical features that are clearly in the realm of grotesque folklore rather than anything resembling a plausible animal.
10:13
SPEAKER_04: However, the tokolosh wasn't originally just a monster.
10:18
SPEAKER_04: An older version of the tradition presents the tokolosh as a water spirit.
10:23
SPEAKER_04: Over time, particularly in later South African folklore, it became strongly associated with witchcraft.
10:30
SPEAKER_04: A person practicing harmful magic was believed in some traditions to be able to create, summon, or control a tokolosh and send it after somebody.
10:47
SPEAKER_04: Academic research on South African witchcraft beliefs records the tokolosh specifically as a supernatural agent supposedly dispatched by witches against their enemies.
10:58
SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
11:00
SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
11:02
SPEAKER_04: You don't want to get on the enemy list with a South African witch.
11:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
11:07
SPEAKER_04: I guess if unless you want to see a tokolosh, you do.
11:10
SPEAKER_04: Which witch?
11:11
SPEAKER_04: Which witch?
11:12
SPEAKER_04: Uh you oh, I want a sandwich.
11:15
SPEAKER_04: I love I've been on sandwich kicks lately.
11:17
SPEAKER_04: Really?
11:17
SPEAKER_04: I uh goodness.
11:19
SPEAKER_04: Uh you generally don't encounter the tokolosh because you wander too far into its habitat.
11:24
SPEAKER_04: Someone sends it to you.
11:26
unknown: Oh.
11:26
SPEAKER_04: And frequently the motive in the stories is jealousy, revenge, or envy.
11:32
SPEAKER_03: Alright.
11:32
SPEAKER_03: So this almost kind of correlates a little bit to a story we've done recently on in Vietnam.
11:38
SPEAKER_04: Yes, last week's episode.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: Let's hear a little bit better then.
11:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh this is probably the piece of tokolosh folklore that has become the best known outside South Africa.
11:48
SPEAKER_04: According to a widespread belief, people would put bricks or blocks underneath the legs of their beds, raising the mattresses considerably higher off the floor.
11:58
SPEAKER_04: Why?
11:59
SPEAKER_04: Because the tokolosh were supposedly to be extremely short.
12:03
SPEAKER_04: Maybe that's what makes the tokolosh so angry.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: They're so short.
12:07
SPEAKER_04: And then people make fun of them.
12:10
SPEAKER_04: I don't make fun of tokoloshes or small people.
12:14
SPEAKER_04: I'm not the very tall.
12:16
SPEAKER_04: Extremely short.
12:17
SPEAKER_04: Raise the bed high enough and supposedly it couldn't reach you while you slept.
12:21
SPEAKER_04: South African newspapers have documented people describing the custom firsthand, including people saying they grew up seeing relatives' beds raised on bricks specifically because of the fear of the tokolosh.
12:33
SPEAKER_04: The image of the raised bed became so recognizable in South African culture that it's frequently used as a shorthand for the Tokolosh legend.
12:42
SPEAKER_04: And the nighttime aspect is important because a lot of Tokelosh stories revolve around sleep.
12:48
SPEAKER_04: Victims awake and unable to move, they feel something in the room, something is sitting on them, they experience frightening sexual encounters or sensations, they see a small humanoid figure and then it disappears, which probably makes you think exactly what I'm thinking.
13:03
SPEAKER_04: Sleep paralysis.
13:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely.
13:06
SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, I mean that definitely resembles a lot of the sleep paralysis stories that people and I used to there was a point where I suffered from sleep paralysis.
13:16
SPEAKER_03: I got it once before, yeah.
13:17
SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
13:18
SPEAKER_04: I used to get a lot when I first moved into um my last place in Colorado before I moved to LA.
13:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't know if it was because there were uh noises from the apartment next door or something in the apartment.
13:33
SPEAKER_04: I don't think there was anything in the apartment.
13:35
SPEAKER_04: I think there was something outside the apartment trying to get my attention most of the time.
13:39
SPEAKER_04: And I'll go into a story about that later.
13:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_04: I used to suffer from sleep paralysis all the time.
13:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
13:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh there have actually been attempts to examine Tokelosh experiences neuro neurologic neurologically.
13:53
SPEAKER_04: So I'm not the only one.
13:54
SPEAKER_04: A paper in the South African Medical Journal discussed whether sightings of small humanoid figures during dreams, seizures, or altered states could be related to the activity in a particular area of the brain.
14:06
SPEAKER_04: That's only a hypothesis, but illustrates closely some topolos encounter resemble worldwide traditions and nighttime entities such as the old hag, incubus, secubus, and the and the dreaded bedroom visitor.
14:20
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
14:21
SPEAKER_04: Here, this is where the subject gets considerably darker.
14:26
SPEAKER_04: There is a South African criminal case in which defendants said that they believed they were attacking a Tokolosh when they were actually attacking another human being.
14:34
SPEAKER_03: Ah, gotcha.
14:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:36
SPEAKER_04: A University of Pietoria legal study discussing cultural differences.
14:41
SPEAKER_04: Defenses cite several examples, including R vs Mumbala Mumbalela, in 1933, in which a man believed a creature inside a hut was a tokolosh, but instead he killed his nine-year-old nephew.
14:57
SPEAKER_04: Other South African cases involve people claiming tokolosh-related dreams or encounters preceding fatal attacks.
15:04
SPEAKER_04: There are even comparatively modern South African news accounts involving communities attributing assaults, theft, illnesses, and other explained events to the tokolosh.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: Now I thought this was interesting enough that the that this is not just uh a folklore.
15:21
SPEAKER_04: There are a lot of people in the rural uh communities in South Africa, yeah, around the Sulu Nation and Socha that believe the Tokolosh to be an actual that the courts have actually had to recognize it as um a condition, I should say.
15:39
SPEAKER_04: They're not recognizing it as a factual creature, but as a condition to people's actions because it is such a relevant relevant belief.
15:49
SPEAKER_04: So here are some court cases where the tokolosh was used as defense in people's actions.
15:57
SPEAKER_04: Um we talked about uh already R versus Imbala, 1933.
16:04
SPEAKER_04: This is a landmark case we've just discussed.
16:06
SPEAKER_04: He was about 18 to 20 years old and was summoned by our frightened children who had seen small feet inside a dim hut.
16:13
SPEAKER_04: He generally concluded that the figure was a tokolosh and struck it repeatedly with a hatchet.
16:20
SPEAKER_04: It uh unfortunately turned out to be his nine-year-old nephew.
16:24
SPEAKER_04: The trial convicted him of murder, but the appellate division ultimately substituted culpable homicide instead.
16:30
SPEAKER_04: The case became important South African law concerning the mistake of fact and the reasonable person's standard.
16:36
SPEAKER_04: So there he was originally convicted of murder, but they took in the account that the Tokolosh was such held in such regard in those areas that they've actually reduced his um charge down to culpable homicide, which is negligent homicide, yeah, very much.
16:56
SPEAKER_04: Uh the next one is R vs In R vs Nyang in 1960.
17:03
SPEAKER_04: This one's even stranger.
17:05
SPEAKER_04: Nyang said he awoke from a nightmare in which a tokolosh was coming toward him.
17:09
SPEAKER_04: He grabbed a knife, saw what he believed was the creature approaching, and stabbed it.
17:14
SPEAKER_04: It was actually another man sharing his sleeping quarters.
17:16
SPEAKER_04: The court concluded that there was reasonable doubt that he had acted consciously and voluntarily.
17:22
SPEAKER_04: His actions were treated as automat automatism, a reflective action associated with a nightmare rather than a deliberate attack.
17:30
SPEAKER_04: His conviction for assault with intent to cause grievous public harm was set aside.
17:36
SPEAKER_04: So there he actually they said yes, he was fine.
17:40
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
17:41
SPEAKER_04: This next one is S vs.
17:43
SPEAKER_04: Jassain.
17:44
SPEAKER_04: Jasane attacked a woman with a chopper, I guess a griever.
17:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, not a helicopter.
17:49
SPEAKER_04: With a chopper got to the chopper and stones because he believed she was a tokolosh.
17:55
SPEAKER_04: Alcohol was involved, although the courts found he was simply incapacitated by drunkenness.
18:01
SPEAKER_04: Uh the judge accepted that Jasane uh generally regarded the a tokolosh as a supernatural being rather than a human being.
18:09
SPEAKER_04: Because that mistake undermined the specific intent necessary for attempted murder, he was convicted only of common assault.
18:16
SPEAKER_04: This is particularly interesting because the judge explicitly considered the accused cultural conception of what a tokolosh was.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: The next one is S vs.
18:28
SPEAKER_04: Igemma 1992.
18:31
SPEAKER_04: This is probably the most fascinating comparison with Membella.
18:35
SPEAKER_04: Igemma fell asleep after a hard day's work and dreamed that a tokolosh was throttling him.
18:41
SPEAKER_04: He awoke, grabbed a cane knife that was uh laying beside him and struck several times at what he believed was the creature.
18:48
SPEAKER_04: He had actually actually struck and killed a two-year-old child.
18:52
SPEAKER_04: That was too bad.
18:54
SPEAKER_04: Psychiatric evidence persuaded uh persuaded the court that his movements after awakening were voluntary.
19:01
SPEAKER_04: So unlike Ingang, he could not rely on auto tomat automatism, but the court accepted that he did not subjectively intend to kill a human being, meaning murder could not be proved proved.
19:12
SPEAKER_04: He was instead uh convicted of culpable homicide.
19:17
SPEAKER_04: And then this one's really interesting because this one, this next one, he really didn't use the tokolosh as a defense as much as he was a tokolosh.
19:27
SPEAKER_04: Lafasi Imsomi, the Tokolosh killer, 1955 through 1956.
19:34
SPEAKER_04: This is different from those cases because Msoni did not claim that he mistook his victims for Tokoloshes.
19:40
SPEAKER_04: He claimed that a Tokolosh commanded him to kill.
19:42
SPEAKER_04: Msomi was convicted of killing 15 people in Atoll.
19:47
SPEAKER_04: A contemporary Time magazine report from the February 20th, 1956, says Mansani claimed the spirit accompanied him and demanded human blood.
19:56
SPEAKER_04: The court did not accept the supernatural explanation and he was sentenced to death.
20:01
SPEAKER_04: Amazingly, nine Zulu chiefs were reportedly permitted to witness this execution at Praetoria prison because there was fear that the Tokolosh might somehow save him.
20:11
SPEAKER_04: Afterwards, one chief reportedly expressed satisfaction that he had not.
20:16
SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't only the fact that he was still regarded as being a real creature that he was actually going to come and save this guy's life.
20:24
SPEAKER_04: And that nine Zulu chiefs had to come and witness the execution.
20:29
SPEAKER_04: And the courts didn't simply ask, don't do top do tokoloshis exist?
20:33
SPEAKER_04: They generally avoided that question altogether.
20:36
SPEAKER_04: They asked legal questions such as did the defendant generally believe what he was saying?
20:40
SPEAKER_04: Did he believe that all that belief eliminate intention?
20:44
SPEAKER_04: Was he acting voluntarily?
20:46
SPEAKER_04: Was his mistake reasonable?
20:47
SPEAKER_04: Was he nevertheless language?
20:50
SPEAKER_03: So that's almost that's very scary that there's an actual call case about this, you know what I mean?
20:54
SPEAKER_04: It's it's not just a story or lore, it's like it's yeah, there's actual public record of how the tokolosh is still affecting.
21:03
SPEAKER_04: And they and some of these were more recent.
21:04
SPEAKER_04: I mean, some were 50s and 60s, but yeah, 1992 was not that far away.
21:10
unknown: Crazy.
21:11
SPEAKER_04: So as I was reading this and seeing that there were court cases around the Kolosh, that the Tokelosh had been taken so seriously that the court had to address it in its decision.
21:21
SPEAKER_04: I decided to do uh a deep dive into other cryptids versus uh court cases.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: Nice, sweet.
21:28
SPEAKER_03: What you got?
21:29
SPEAKER_04: And as I'm about to read these, I realized I forgot to bring up the most recent one, which was the Slender Man killings.
21:36
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
21:37
SPEAKER_04: Uh attempt was they actually killed her or attempted to kill attempted to kill their girl.
21:42
SPEAKER_04: They attempted to kill their friend, but they yeah.
21:45
SPEAKER_04: I forgot to put that one in, but this first one I think we need to deal with a slender man episode.
21:50
SPEAKER_04: I do, I think I do too.
21:52
SPEAKER_04: I do too.
21:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
21:55
SPEAKER_04: So this is um cryptic defenses that were used.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: In the United States.
22:02
SPEAKER_04: Number one.
22:03
SPEAKER_04: Bigfoot.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: Larry Sanders, Oklahoma.
22:06
SPEAKER_04: Larry Sanders in Oklahoma 2022 through 2024 is what this case.
22:12
SPEAKER_04: Larry Sanders?
22:13
SPEAKER_03: That name sounds familiar.
22:15
SPEAKER_04: It's a fictional.
22:17
SPEAKER_04: Or in Larry Sanders HBO show.
22:19
SPEAKER_03: Oh, was it?
22:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: That's what it was.
22:22
SPEAKER_04: This may be the best modern American parallel to the Tokolosh case.
22:26
SPEAKER_04: Larry Doyle Sanders killed his friend Jimmy Knighton while the two men were noodling for catfish.
22:32
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: That makes sense.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: Noodling my head for a second.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking, you're doing what?
22:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's when they catch it with their hands and okay.
22:39
SPEAKER_04: On the South Canadian River in Oklahoma in July 2022.
22:44
SPEAKER_04: Sanders told investigators and later testified in court that he believed Knighton had summoned Bigfoot creatures to kill and eat him.
22:51
SPEAKER_04: At trial, Sanders went further.
22:53
SPEAKER_04: He said he actually saw a roughly 12 foot tall Bigfoot downstream and heard Knighton apparently howling into a drainage pipe.
23:01
SPEAKER_04: Sanders said he became convinced Knighton intended to drown him and send his body downstream to the creature.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: I think there might have been a little drugs.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:12
SPEAKER_03: Just a little.
23:14
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
23:14
SPEAKER_04: I wasn't there.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: I didn't hear anything about the court case, but I think there might be on a few drugs.
23:22
SPEAKER_04: That's just my assumption.
23:24
SPEAKER_04: This wasn't simply some wild statement made after arrest.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: Bigfoot the Bigfoot belief was discussed during the actual murder trial.
23:31
SPEAKER_04: The defense questioned Santor's mental health and substance abuse history.
23:35
SPEAKER_04: There we go.
23:35
SPEAKER_04: Substance abuse history.
23:37
SPEAKER_04: And argued that he believed he was fighting for his life.
23:40
SPEAKER_04: Ultimately, however, the formal defense was self-defense rather than Bigfoot made me do it.
23:45
SPEAKER_03: Bigfoot made me do it.
23:46
SPEAKER_04: The judge convicted Sanders of first-degree murder in April 2024, and he was sentenced to life without parole that June.
24:04
SPEAKER_04: This one actually worked as a legal defense.
24:08
SPEAKER_04: In July 2018, Pankaj Basin entered a business in Alexandria, Virginia, and killed a stranger.
24:17
SPEAKER_04: Bradford Jackson.
24:19
SPEAKER_04: Bassan later told doctors that he believed Jackson was transforming into a werewolf.
24:23
SPEAKER_04: He apparently told police, I killed the wolf.
24:26
SPEAKER_04: His lawyers argued that he was suffering from severe psychosis and was legally insane.
24:32
SPEAKER_04: Five doctors diagnosed him with bipolar disorder and psychotic features with psychotic features.
24:38
SPEAKER_04: His first murder trial ended with a deadlock jury.
24:40
SPEAKER_04: Afterward, a psychiatrist selected by the prosecution also concluded that Bassan had been legally insane at the time.
24:47
SPEAKER_04: In July 2019, he was therefore found not guilty by reason of sanity and committed for extended treatment.
24:53
SPEAKER_04: Ah, here's another wolfman, the wolfman at Galicia.
24:58
SPEAKER_04: Manuel Blanco Roma Santa Spain 1850s.
25:04
SPEAKER_04: This is one of the great historical examples.
25:06
SPEAKER_04: Manuel Blanco Rosamata was accused of multiple murders in Galicia, Spain.
25:12
SPEAKER_04: His explanation was extraordinary.
25:14
SPEAKER_04: He said he had been cursed and involuntarily transformed into a wolf.
25:19
SPEAKER_04: In wolf form, he said he killed people.
25:22
SPEAKER_04: This wasn't merely a story attached to the case afterwards.
25:25
SPEAKER_04: Galicia's official historical archive preserves the judicial file and the regional government describes it as the only known Spanish judicial proceeding opened against a person involunt involving lycanthropy.
25:40
SPEAKER_04: A werewolf.
25:52
SPEAKER_04: The court didn't buy it.
25:55
SPEAKER_04: He was originally sentenced to death.
25:56
SPEAKER_04: His sentence was eventually reduced to life in prison.
26:01
SPEAKER_04: Now this next one has been kind of a uh there's been a couple shows on like Discovery Channel and stuff about this one, but this is the Windigo murder.
26:09
SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
26:10
SPEAKER_04: Jack and Joseph Fiddler, Canada 1907.
26:13
unknown: Wow.
26:14
SPEAKER_04: And you don't want to mess with a Windigo.
26:16
SPEAKER_06: No, no, you don't.
26:18
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and I think I may have mentioned this uh particular case when we did the Windigo episode way back at the beginning.
26:25
SPEAKER_04: Uh this one may be the closest cultural analogue to the Tokolosh case.
26:29
SPEAKER_04: Jack Filder was an Ojiba leader and shaman in what is now northern Ontario, who was renowned amongst his people for his supposed ability to destroy windigos.
26:41
SPEAKER_04: Within that traditional belief system, a windigo wasn't necessarily something wandering around independently in the woods.
26:48
SPEAKER_04: A human could become possessed or transformed into one, and an enormously dangerous cannibalistic being.
26:55
SPEAKER_04: Fieldler claimed during that lifetime to have destroyed 14 windigos.
27:00
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
27:00
SPEAKER_04: Or was he a serial killer?
27:03
SPEAKER_04: Anyway.
27:13
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I'm not even gonna try to pronounce try to pronounce her name.
27:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh well, I'll I'll try.
27:18
SPEAKER_04: Wasaka piqua.
27:20
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that yeah, that's Wasaka Piqua.
27:22
SPEAKER_04: That wasn't so hard.
27:24
SPEAKER_04: There was a lot of consonants and vowels in there, but I got it.
27:26
SPEAKER_04: I got it.
27:29
SPEAKER_04: Wasaka Piqua.
27:31
SPEAKER_04: She had been uh extremely ill, and test and testimony indicated that the community believed she was going to become a wendigo.
27:38
SPEAKER_04: The brothers strangled her.
27:40
SPEAKER_04: Jack died before trial.
27:42
SPEAKER_04: What's that?
27:43
SPEAKER_03: As you do.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: As you do.
27:44
SPEAKER_04: You're gonna become a wendigo.
27:47
unknown: Die.
27:49
SPEAKER_04: Jack died before trial.
27:50
SPEAKER_04: Joseph went before a Canadian court.
27:52
SPEAKER_04: And the judge's response is fascinating because it directly demonstrates the collusion or I'm sorry, the collision between traditional supernational belief and Western criminal law.
28:03
SPEAKER_04: Commissioner Islesworth Bowen Perry, that's when he used all three names, indeed, told the jury, What the law forbids, no pagan belief can justify.
28:13
SPEAKER_04: Joseph was found guilty of murder and sentenced to hang.
28:16
SPEAKER_04: Although the jury recommended mercy, efforts to secure his release eventually succeeded, but he died in custody before the order could save him.
28:26
SPEAKER_04: And then this next one, this last one, I mentioned this one at one time because uh then the last year there was a documentary that went out on I believe it was uh Netflix.
28:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
28:37
SPEAKER_04: Um called Bigfoot Tooker, and it talks about this case.
28:43
SPEAKER_04: And it was really, really good.
28:44
SPEAKER_04: And we were like, this guy used Bigfoot as a defense, and they couldn't find the body, so he was never convicted.
28:52
SPEAKER_04: But uh, this is uh Bigfoot, allegedly a Dark City teenager, California, 1987.
28:58
SPEAKER_04: I remember, yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_04: This one never actually reached a verdict, but I think you'll know to know more about it.
29:04
SPEAKER_04: 16-year-old Teresa and Beer disappeared in California, Sierra, Nevada in June 1987 while camping with 44-year-old Russell Welch.
29:12
SPEAKER_04: Welch came back, Beer didn't.
29:14
SPEAKER_04: His explanation?
29:16
SPEAKER_04: Bigfoot took her.
29:17
SPEAKER_04: Authorities reported that Welch apparently genuinely believed in Saswatch and claimed to have been in continuing contact with the tribe of Bigfoot's.
29:25
SPEAKER_04: Welch was charged with child stealing and was and scheduled for trial, but prosecutors dropped the charges immediately before trial because they feared that trying him for the lesser offense could create a double jeopardy complication if Beer's body was later found and they wanted to prosecute him for murder.
29:41
SPEAKER_04: Her deference her disappearance remains a key mystery in the story.
29:46
SPEAKER_04: And he passed away before.
29:50
SPEAKER_04: But last uh I heard that she is still this is still an open case.
29:55
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
29:56
SPEAKER_04: And um she's still gone.
29:58
SPEAKER_04: But that's the interesting that's I thought that was this episode was gonna be interesting because the one you got the the cryptid, the tokolosh.
30:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but then you got all the legal stories around the tokolosh and other cryptids that people have brought up in the city.
30:11
SPEAKER_03: No, it that's very interesting.
30:13
SPEAKER_03: The the once you start bringing like law and courts into stuff, it's it's because they're not the ones that are like okay, yeah.
30:22
SPEAKER_03: It's not like this is a possible story.
30:24
SPEAKER_03: This is like this leader, you go to prison for the rest of your life or something like you doing or didn't do.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know what I mean?
30:30
SPEAKER_03: This is like real life.
30:33
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know all of it, it's paranormal, it's just research, but at the same time, to be in a situation where you have to prove Bigfoot did something to keep yourself out of prison.
30:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or or prove that you didn't kill your whatever it was something else.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and having to believe it, you'll either get like criminally insane or you might win the case because they believe you.
31:00
SPEAKER_03: And then there's like, will you believe me?
31:03
SPEAKER_03: That's it.
31:04
SPEAKER_04: Well, I I don't I don't I don't think that they believe that the the the creature of the cryptator or actually exists.
31:11
SPEAKER_04: They believe that you believed it so much that that it actually influenced your your reactions, I think is what the court is actually taking.
31:19
SPEAKER_03: So interesting.
31:21
SPEAKER_03: Really I really find that stuff interesting, you know.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: The fact that the paranormal starts interacting with the judicial system and they and you have to start really taking a a close look at it as yeah the the influential factor in the a person's actions, yeah, because I mean because in my like to me, you would think that something like that would be just like there's no way.
31:47
SPEAKER_04: There's no way you can not so much get away or or whatever, but like you'd think right off the bat you'd lose because you're bringing unless you're actually actually nuts, especially when you're this la the last case I was just mentioning, the one that the documentaries made, you're a 44-year-old male taking a teenage girl camping.
32:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
32:10
SPEAKER_04: One, yeah, two, no one seems to have a problem with it, even though it's the 70s, that's kind of weird.
32:17
SPEAKER_04: But she doesn't come back, and you say Bigfoot took her, and you expect nothing else to happen from that.
32:24
SPEAKER_04: That to me is just mind-boggling.
32:28
SPEAKER_06: Strange.
32:28
SPEAKER_06: Very strange.
32:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: But uh, and as I mentioned, the one the one case that I should have included with was the uh the Slender Man murders where the attempted murder where the two girls wanted to appease uh Slender Man that they lured their uh their friend out into the forest and tried to tried to kill her.
32:49
SPEAKER_03: There, you know, there there are a lot of core cases, uh not so much a lot, but I'm I'm thinking of another one that was devilishly related in a way.
32:59
SPEAKER_03: Okay, because I think uh if I can remember them, the Bulgers.
33:06
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember off the top of my head, but back in the either late 80s or early 90s, um there was a very large case in the UK and in Ireland because two kids had watched the Chucky movies.
33:24
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: And then decided to be.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they decided to bring a kid out and kill him.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: Okay, and then say it was the devil or said it was like evil, or they were possessed.
33:36
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, some I can't I have to get it, I'll have to look at it again.
33:39
SPEAKER_03: It was a long time ago.
33:41
SPEAKER_03: But the the court went on for a really long time.
33:44
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember, I think they got convicted of murder.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: But like that's a shame.
33:48
SPEAKER_03: It was got to do with like because they watched Chunky.
33:52
SPEAKER_03: That the that there was an evil spirit or something.
33:54
SPEAKER_04: It was, you know.
33:55
SPEAKER_04: Well, you also during that time they had the satanic panic going on, and so everybody was that in England too.
34:00
SPEAKER_04: I think it was everywhere.
34:01
SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, it was mostly centered in the US, but I think it was kind of everywhere that you listen to the wrong music, you were going to be possessed by the devil.
34:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I think that might have been an influence on the court as well.
34:13
SPEAKER_03: But absolutely, absolutely.
34:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just so strange.
34:15
SPEAKER_03: I think you know, I think what would be great is we do do a follow-up episode on this and and try to find other words, core case that I got through a paranormal.
34:26
SPEAKER_04: I know there was a famous um one in New York, I don't remember the year, I want to say it was late 70s, early 80s as well, where it was a murder case, but the defense was that they were possessed by uh a demon.
34:38
SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.
34:39
SPEAKER_04: And I was gonna include that one, but I figured no, that sounds like a full episode.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's fair.
34:43
SPEAKER_03: We can we can yeah if there's if there's one that we think you know that'd be a full episode, let's do a full episode.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I'm gonna research someone.
34:50
SPEAKER_03: I wrote uh I wrote all the details down.
34:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we'll do the fandom coal cases, and then um then there's been some um others for the you know the devil made me do it type things, but then there was uh oh, there was one I was just about to mention and uh just left my brain.
35:05
SPEAKER_04: Just popped right on top right you know.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: I realized, oh, my birthday's coming up.
35:10
SPEAKER_04: Oh crap, I'm pushing really close to 60.
35:13
SPEAKER_04: How the hell did that happen?
35:15
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's a pleasure to get old, but at the same time, like, how the hell did that happen?
35:20
SPEAKER_03: I turned 45 this year.
35:21
SPEAKER_04: Oh man, I wish I I I remember 45.
35:28
SPEAKER_04: It's like I've been in LA since 2004, and it just seems like yesterday, but the other times it seems like it's been a long time ago.
35:35
SPEAKER_04: It's just like how how in the world does 20 years go by like before you know it.
35:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's really weird.
35:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's really crazy.
35:44
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, nuts that has nothing to do with cryptids.
35:47
SPEAKER_03: No, I mean that's that's there's life, that is life, and it's definitely part of it.
35:51
SPEAKER_04: It's like wow, yeah, like pushing 60.
35:54
SPEAKER_04: I don't feel that old.
35:55
SPEAKER_03: Stop pushing 60 year olds.
35:56
SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't feel that old though.
35:59
SPEAKER_04: I don't push people.
36:01
SPEAKER_03: Just himself.
36:02
SPEAKER_03: Don't push my buttons.
36:03
SPEAKER_03: Just himself, he just pushes himself, that's all.
36:08
SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, how would how would you feel being on a jury?
36:12
SPEAKER_04: Not knowing anything about a case, but you know you're on a capital murder case, and as you're sitting there listening, the defense says, um, Chupacabra made me do it.
36:24
SPEAKER_04: I mean, of course you'd have to hear the the evidence details of the story.
36:29
SPEAKER_03: That's so funny because if I heard it, because I'm like, you know, into paranormal, I would have to listen to what he has to say.
36:37
SPEAKER_03: But my first thought in my head is what the fuck?
36:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
36:42
SPEAKER_03: Are you fucking are you serious?
36:44
SPEAKER_03: Like, alright, let's hear it.
36:46
SPEAKER_04: Let's hear it.
36:47
SPEAKER_04: And then you can say, excuse me, the chupacabra does not behave like that.
36:53
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
36:54
SPEAKER_03: And and and it's jerky tastes spicy.
36:59
SPEAKER_04: I actually got some uh seasoning uh that I use it.
37:02
SPEAKER_04: It's really good.
37:02
SPEAKER_04: It's called chupacabra seasoning.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: Um I wonder if we spawned it from our first episode because we kind of call that I'm sure it was I'm sure there was uh chipabra spice spicy before that, anyways, but yeah, yeah.
37:17
SPEAKER_04: Anyways, yes.
37:20
SPEAKER_04: Kind of makes you wonder how many people attempt to use the but there's also um it was on the east coast in the 1800s, and I was gonna include this one too, but it was kind of like everybody had already heard about it.
37:33
SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't really a court, well, it was a court case.
37:35
SPEAKER_04: So um this woman's daughter gets it is found dead.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: I won't say it gets skilled, get is found dead.
37:44
SPEAKER_04: There is belief that her husband or boyfriend uh is the one responsible, but there's no evidence.
37:51
SPEAKER_04: And he also wouldn't allow people to examine the body.
37:54
SPEAKER_04: He also didn't allow for an autopsy and had her buried right away.
38:00
SPEAKER_04: So mom had a dream one night where a ghost came to her and told her, No, you need to look for this, you need to look for that.
38:08
SPEAKER_04: And it was actually uh explained to her that uh I am your daughter, I am the ghost of your daughter.
38:14
SPEAKER_04: Oh, wow.
38:15
SPEAKER_04: This is what happened.
38:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:16
SPEAKER_04: So she took that uh she took what she had learned in her dream and went to um the magistrate and managed to get the body exhumed once the spring came around where they could actually dig up the ground because it gets icy cold.
38:31
SPEAKER_04: And without the uh husband or boyfriend knowing, they did a an autopsy and found that her neck had been broken and that she had been strangled.
38:39
unknown: Wow.
38:40
SPEAKER_04: And they ended up during the trial, it was asked, How did you come to this information?
38:46
SPEAKER_04: And she had to explain it under oath that a ghost had come to her and told her to look for this.
38:53
SPEAKER_04: And so the the court kind of like uh okay, but the fact of the matter is it didn't matter, it didn't matter how the information came to it.
39:02
SPEAKER_04: They did end up doing an autopsy and found that that she had been murdered, yeah, and he was arrested, and and I think he is eventually hung for the murder.
39:10
SPEAKER_04: But uh it's become there's there's a roadside sign on this spot live the house, and then they tell the ghost story.
39:17
SPEAKER_04: It was it's really it's a only case in American I could be wrong, but from what I read, it was the only case in American judicial history that a ghost was uh considered to be a viable um one win for the ghosts, yeah.
39:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's really cool.
39:36
SPEAKER_03: That's a really interesting story.
39:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
39:41
SPEAKER_04: Of course, anyway the mom probably had her suspicions.
39:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm sure everybody had their suspicions suspicions, yeah, and she just found a way to act upon it, but still it's recognized as the first time ghost testimony was uh used in trial.
39:58
SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
39:59
SPEAKER_03: That's really cool.
40:00
SPEAKER_04: That led to a conviction.
40:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
40:04
SPEAKER_04: I guess even you could bring up the DeFeos from the Anneville horror case.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: The son that uh killed his family, he claimed that um uh voices and demons were telling him to do it.
40:16
SPEAKER_04: So, I mean, yeah, that was his defense.
40:17
SPEAKER_03: I really want voices to tell people to do something really cool.
40:23
SPEAKER_04: How do you know they they don't?
40:24
SPEAKER_04: And that these these people are just too good uh to say their voices.
40:29
SPEAKER_03: You're gonna make it the voice that solves world hunger, and they're like the ghost told me to do it.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: The ghost told me how to feed everybody like that.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that would be good.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: It would be it'd be really interesting.
40:42
SPEAKER_04: That would be information that should come over from the other side on how to do that.
40:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
40:46
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: This is how there would be peace on there to come from ghosts.
40:52
SPEAKER_04: Well, you're there's it's getting crowded over here, you guys gotta stop telling each other.
40:57
SPEAKER_03: Slow down a little bit, alright?
40:58
SPEAKER_03: The fucking line is up there.
40:59
SPEAKER_05: You think I can afford a house on this side?
41:02
SPEAKER_05: Come on.
41:03
SPEAKER_05: Someone dies in the bed.
41:05
SPEAKER_05: There's too many people here, I can't afford a house.
41:07
SPEAKER_05: Stop it.
41:08
SPEAKER_05: You're in your dead bed.
41:09
SPEAKER_05: Here, here, here, here, here.
41:11
SPEAKER_03: Well, please stop.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: Your heart stops, you're dead.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: You open your eyes and you you're like, I there's no room.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: There's no room, sorry.
41:18
SPEAKER_04: You gotta go back to wait.
41:20
SPEAKER_04: Maybe that's reincarnation.
41:22
SPEAKER_04: Oh, there you go.
41:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:23
SPEAKER_04: You come back as a snail because they look like it's too long.
41:27
SPEAKER_04: You have a choice.
41:28
SPEAKER_04: You can stand here and wait in line, your number 50 billion to uh in line, or you can go back as a snail.
41:34
SPEAKER_03: What do you want?
41:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh here's I mean, I know this is crazy, it just popped in and it's it's probably so wrong, but you what if that was it?
41:40
SPEAKER_03: What if the line was too long to get into wherever you need to go?
41:45
SPEAKER_03: Here's the deal.
41:46
SPEAKER_03: We'll put you in the body, but there's gonna be a natural disaster, you're gonna die in 10 years.
41:50
SPEAKER_03: But that that'll just mean you get in.
41:52
SPEAKER_04: They're just saving your spot in line.
41:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
41:56
SPEAKER_03: So you wouldn't be a 10-year-old child, you'd just be in someone else's body, or yeah, just for just because like, hey, you know, go watch some TV for 10 years and you know, we'll put it on.
42:04
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I hope I would hope that if they put you in the body, they would expect a little bit more than just watching TV.
42:09
SPEAKER_04: Uh like makeup.
42:10
SPEAKER_04: While you're over there, try to enroll hunger.
42:13
SPEAKER_03: Well, there's I mean, there's that, but also like, you know, you know Well, would this line be purgatory?
42:19
SPEAKER_03: Maybe.
42:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, maybe, yeah.
42:21
SPEAKER_04: The reincarnation is like, maybe I don't want to stand in line, send me back at something else.
42:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:26
SPEAKER_04: I think I I think we just solved it.
42:29
SPEAKER_04: I think we did.
42:30
SPEAKER_04: I think we just did.
42:30
SPEAKER_04: There you go.
42:31
SPEAKER_04: There you go.
42:32
SPEAKER_04: Right here, right here, right now on Phantom Journeys.
42:35
SPEAKER_04: We figured out the afterlife.
42:36
unknown: There you go.
42:37
SPEAKER_04: There it is.
42:37
SPEAKER_04: It's just a line.
42:38
SPEAKER_04: Copyright.
42:39
SPEAKER_03: A line is too long.
42:40
SPEAKER_04: Copyright uh September 5th, 2026, Phantom Journeys.com.
42:46
SPEAKER_04: Matt McGurk, Ken Smith.
42:48
SPEAKER_04: Boom boom.
42:49
SPEAKER_04: Boom boom.
42:50
SPEAKER_04: Boom.
42:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, 221.
42:52
SPEAKER_03: Bada bing, bada boom.
42:54
SPEAKER_04: So now they know that we recorded this about three weeks before they heard it.
42:58
SPEAKER_03: That's true.
42:58
SPEAKER_03: That's true.
42:59
SPEAKER_03: But if you guys have been listening to us in the past, you know that we do.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: No, we record forward in a row.
43:03
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, so Ken, that was a really cool episode.
43:05
SPEAKER_03: I really enjoyed it.
43:06
SPEAKER_03: And I think we should have a run-up episode.
43:08
SPEAKER_03: Part two on this one eventually.
43:10
SPEAKER_04: So we started off talking about a cryptid.
43:13
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
43:13
SPEAKER_04: And we finished with uh solving the uh solving the what happens to you in the afterlife.
43:18
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
43:18
SPEAKER_03: Boom.
43:20
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
43:20
SPEAKER_03: Boom.
43:21
SPEAKER_03: We just need, you know, we need someone from the other side to come over and verify it.
43:26
SPEAKER_04: Here, we're gonna stop for a second.
43:29
SPEAKER_04: This is a perfect time for an EVP.
43:31
SPEAKER_04: We're tak we're seriously not gonna say anything.
43:33
SPEAKER_04: So if anything comes up, it's a true EVP from the other side, tell us if we're right or wrong.
43:38
SPEAKER_03: Very true.
43:38
SPEAKER_03: But I will say we do have condensers on the mic, so you're gonna have to loudly.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: You have to shout.
43:44
SPEAKER_04: And three, two, one.
43:52
SPEAKER_04: And there you have it.
43:55
SPEAKER_04: That's it.
43:56
SPEAKER_04: I'm hoping something.
43:57
SPEAKER_04: I really hope something is here.
43:59
SPEAKER_03: I'll I'll I'll Lower I'll heard it up a lot, but you know, it'd be really funny if I just put it in like if I put it in the sound effect, like uh you know it's like oh god, you're wrong, you're all right.
44:22
SPEAKER_03: And anyhow, so yeah, that's cool.
44:37
SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
44:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
44:39
SPEAKER_03: Should we leave it there?
44:42
SPEAKER_03: Leave it over there or over here?
44:43
SPEAKER_03: No, here, like it's hold it like actually.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I need to correct myself?
44:48
SPEAKER_03: I I made a mistake.
44:50
SPEAKER_03: Oh no.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: I did.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: In one of our episodes, I said you were like we're doing the whole thing like right here, right there, and it says this moment in time and space will be here in like in the future.
44:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
45:00
SPEAKER_03: That's wrong.
45:01
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
45:02
SPEAKER_03: Because we are moving to us.
45:04
SPEAKER_03: We are on a planet moving through the solar system.
45:06
SPEAKER_03: So this moment in time is what we're here is in Bakersfield.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: It's already gone.
45:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
45:12
SPEAKER_03: It's already gone.
45:13
SPEAKER_03: Would it be Bakersfield?
45:16
SPEAKER_03: No.
45:16
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
45:16
SPEAKER_03: It depends on which direction we're moving, though.
45:18
SPEAKER_04: It would move uh it would be probably in Hawaii.
45:21
SPEAKER_04: I wonder what direction we're rotating.
45:23
SPEAKER_04: We're rotating east to west.
45:24
SPEAKER_03: This way?
45:25
SPEAKER_03: Oh east to west.
45:26
SPEAKER_04: That's why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
45:29
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
45:30
SPEAKER_03: Or we could be rolling that way, or this way, or that way.
45:33
SPEAKER_04: We're rolling clockwise.
45:35
SPEAKER_04: Clockwise.
45:35
SPEAKER_04: If you look at it from the top.
45:39
SPEAKER_03: Well, which way is it?
45:40
SPEAKER_03: Alright.
45:41
SPEAKER_03: So anyway, yes.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: This that point in time and space, well, this right here will never be seen again.
45:49
SPEAKER_03: Dang it.
45:50
SPEAKER_03: It's already gone.
45:51
SPEAKER_04: And even when we come back around the next time this year?
45:53
SPEAKER_04: No.
45:54
SPEAKER_03: Because we're not going, we're not coming back, we're gone.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: Forward.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: Always.
45:59
SPEAKER_03: Onward and forward.
46:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean, technically we're going around Sarah, so maybe it might be here, and then it might be here, and it might be here.
46:07
SPEAKER_04: See, you know how I like to be creative, right?
46:10
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
46:10
SPEAKER_04: I made a little thing.
46:12
SPEAKER_04: I bought some uh glow in the dark sand.
46:14
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
46:14
SPEAKER_04: Which I expected it to be a lot more glowy and glow glowy in the darkish, but it wasn't.
46:20
SPEAKER_04: But I put it in an old um uh medicine yellowish medicine bottle that I took a label off that.
46:26
SPEAKER_04: It was a really cool-shaped bottle.
46:28
SPEAKER_04: And I had a sticker made up said a chronosia Chronosium.
46:32
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
46:32
SPEAKER_04: And I had all the details and everything put on there and whatnot, that it was the reactant uh for a time machine.
46:38
SPEAKER_04: Oh, very cool.
46:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, so it's sitting on my desk.
46:43
SPEAKER_04: A little bottle.
46:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
46:44
SPEAKER_04: Now actually, when I get my bookcases, I'm gonna put up on the bookcase, and it's just a little bottle that glows in the dark and says Chronosium on it, and that it's uh a reactive agent for uh that uh boost starts uh your time travel, your time travel machine.
46:59
SPEAKER_03: I definitely like that.
47:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's very cool.
47:01
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's just me being creative.
47:03
SPEAKER_03: There you go.
47:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we are all creative dinosaurs.
47:06
SPEAKER_04: And I put a bunch of radiation symbols on it.
47:08
unknown: Very cool.
47:09
SPEAKER_03: That's how no one sees the thing is actually radioactive.
47:12
SPEAKER_04: It does set the bottom say in small letter letters saying that this is a novelty product made by the Alien Soda Company.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: Can you get that in the company?
47:21
SPEAKER_04: No, I don't I don't it sound that sounds like a lot of um liability if someone tried to eat that sand or something.
47:28
SPEAKER_04: That's true.
47:29
SPEAKER_04: You can't that's true, yeah.
47:30
SPEAKER_03: Well sc you probably shouldn't sell sand that you find on the beach.
47:34
SPEAKER_04: Well, I didn't.
47:35
SPEAKER_04: I I bought it because it glowed in the dark, so I don't know what I don't know why it glows in the dark, but it glows in the dark.
47:41
SPEAKER_04: But uh, yeah.
47:43
SPEAKER_04: Anyways.
47:44
SPEAKER_03: Sounds good.
47:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:46
SPEAKER_03: Ken, I think we should leave it there.
47:48
SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, you're not ready.
47:50
SPEAKER_04: No, but people need to be told that they have to go to our website.
47:53
SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, yes, there's that.
47:54
SPEAKER_04: We can't just end the show without saying, please go to our website.
47:58
SPEAKER_03: Please go to our website, and please uh look at the look at our blogs and our archives and our store.
48:04
SPEAKER_04: Buy something, help us out.
48:06
SPEAKER_04: Uh because uh it actually does cost us money to bring you all these episodes.
48:10
SPEAKER_04: Um any kind of purchase does help us out and continue to bring you the content.
48:16
SPEAKER_04: Um t-shirts, yes, everything there.
48:21
SPEAKER_04: Everything you want things from uh relatively inexpensive all the way up to you know a hundred bucks or so.
48:27
SPEAKER_03: Like this awesome mouse mat that was kind of the word, but whatever.
48:31
SPEAKER_03: But it's also it's long and it's you know covers your desk.
48:35
SPEAKER_03: Nice, interface.
48:36
SPEAKER_04: And it's uh LED lights on it, too.
48:38
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
48:38
SPEAKER_03: I haven't got a pull-bed in, but friggin' everywhere.
48:43
SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah, go to our website, tell a hundred people that you've heard us and love us and want them to hear us and love us too.
48:50
SPEAKER_04: Uh, leave us five-star reviews on any of the platforms that you listen to to help other people find us.
48:55
SPEAKER_04: That would be a huge uh help.
48:59
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
49:00
SPEAKER_04: And you know what?
49:02
SPEAKER_04: I love you guys.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: And I love you too, guys.
49:04
SPEAKER_04: No, I'm not saying I love you.
49:06
SPEAKER_04: No, that's what I'm saying.
49:06
SPEAKER_03: That's why that's why I made sure to say guys, not you.
49:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because that would be that'd be kind of awkward because we're sitting so close to each other.
49:13
SPEAKER_04: But no, really, we love you guys.
49:16
SPEAKER_04: Um it's great that there's a community where we can all get together, talk about things that uh interests us, and talk about subjects that other people might find fringe or exactly or crazy or whatever, but as a community we can sit here and we can talk and be a safe space to share experiences and things in the paranormal.
49:43
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
49:43
SPEAKER_03: I want to give a shout out to Crystal from Crystal's World.
49:46
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I I talked to her Instagram.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: Um I talked to her recently, uh maybe a couple of months ago, but she doesn't she's doing alright.
49:56
SPEAKER_03: Alright, Crystal.
49:58
SPEAKER_04: It's always uh good to hear from her.
50:00
SPEAKER_03: We'll have her on again.
50:01
SPEAKER_04: She's gonna come back on.
50:02
SPEAKER_04: Uh she's our only two time two-time guest at this point.
50:05
unknown: Exactly.
50:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
50:07
SPEAKER_04: And we do have we're working on trying to get some guests.
50:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
50:11
SPEAKER_04: Um so I'm too you know, you know the they they talk about how many um levels are you are from Kevin Bacon.
50:22
SPEAKER_03: Yes, the the five degrees.
50:24
SPEAKER_04: But degrees.
50:25
SPEAKER_04: How many seven degrees?
50:26
SPEAKER_04: Seven degrees of Kevin Bacon, yes.
50:28
SPEAKER_04: So I know somebody who's gonna be on Dan Aircroyd's new uh show.
50:36
SPEAKER_04: We might be even closer if I can sweet talk somebody into putting us in touch.
50:41
SPEAKER_04: We'd have to.
50:42
SPEAKER_03: I'm trying, you know, and like I'm not gonna be I don't mean to be disrespectful here, but like if it was Dolly Parton or or or like you know, um we don't live forever, basically.
50:53
SPEAKER_03: And we would love to have Don Ackroyd on.
50:55
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes, yes.
50:57
SPEAKER_03: We'd probably die from heart attacks if we knew about it.
51:01
SPEAKER_03: Like, we're gonna have Don Acker like done.
51:03
SPEAKER_04: And you know what?
51:04
SPEAKER_04: We might not tell you guys.
51:05
SPEAKER_04: We might just like, and I we have a special guest today.
51:08
SPEAKER_04: Guess who it is?
51:08
SPEAKER_04: It's Dan Aykroyd.
51:10
SPEAKER_04: You know, Jesus, could you imagine?
51:13
SPEAKER_04: Maybe.
51:14
SPEAKER_04: What's that?
51:15
SPEAKER_04: Maybe now this is a huge maybe, because I don't know if the person's gonna actually put us in touch.
51:22
SPEAKER_04: That's true, that's true.
51:23
SPEAKER_04: But maybe we can do that for our Halloween episode.
51:25
SPEAKER_03: My god, that would be crazy.
51:27
SPEAKER_04: We want to do something special for Halloween.
51:29
SPEAKER_04: Boom, there you go.
51:31
SPEAKER_04: And it would just talk.
51:32
SPEAKER_04: All we have to do is talk.
51:33
SPEAKER_04: Oh well, he's got a new show out, so I'm sure we can talk about the show.
51:37
SPEAKER_04: And we'll talk about his entire life of the paranormal.
51:43
SPEAKER_04: That I that would be amazing.
51:45
SPEAKER_04: That that yeah, yeah.
51:47
SPEAKER_04: So working on it.
51:48
SPEAKER_04: Oh my goodness, Ken.
51:50
SPEAKER_04: We're we're two degrees away at this point.
51:51
SPEAKER_03: We're we're two degrees, just need a tweak, another couple of years.
51:54
SPEAKER_03: So you know who else?
51:55
SPEAKER_03: No, I know Daniel Land Lang Ride is one of the biggest, but you know, there's a I'd love to get can't remember his name off top of my head.
52:03
SPEAKER_03: The guy from Tremors.
52:05
SPEAKER_03: Kevin Bacon.
52:05
SPEAKER_03: No, no, I don't mean that's that's why I'm off in my head.
52:08
SPEAKER_03: But the the guy with the cap and the guns and the and he he actually does all the other uh there's like seven tremor movies, and he's like the he's in all of them.
52:16
SPEAKER_03: I don't know his name.
52:17
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember his name, but I'd love to have him on it as well.
52:19
SPEAKER_03: I'll say he'll have a lot of fun.
52:20
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
52:21
SPEAKER_04: So talk about tremors, yeah.
52:22
SPEAKER_03: Tremors and just like you know, other spooky things he's been in and stuff like that.
52:26
SPEAKER_03: So I think we'll well there's definitely a couple of things that we want to look into uh over the next year or so.
52:32
SPEAKER_04: Cool, but uh it's still a stretch.
52:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean the chances are very nil at this point still, but we are a couple degrees closer than we were.
52:41
SPEAKER_03: Very cool.
52:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh uh that's very exciting news.
52:43
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
52:44
SPEAKER_04: I meant I meant to mention that to you before.
52:46
SPEAKER_04: Now I now you know interesting.
52:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
52:49
SPEAKER_04: All right, all right.
52:51
SPEAKER_04: So please go to phantomjourneys.com, shake a hundred people that you uh meet on the street by the collar and tell them to come listen to us.
52:59
SPEAKER_04: And I've been ken.
53:01
SPEAKER_04: I I've been mad.
53:02
SPEAKER_03: Don't shake people in the street.
53:05
SPEAKER_03: At least I'll tell them about phantom journeys podcasts.
53:08
SPEAKER_03: If you shake them, just tell them about it.
53:09
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, I've been mapped.
53:10
SPEAKER_03: And I've been ken.
53:12
SPEAKER_05: And this has been The Phantom Journeys Podcast.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: You can help support this show by buying something from our merch store.
53:27
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53:30
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53:33
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53:42
SPEAKER_01: This has been the Phantom Journeys Podcast.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and not necessarily the views of our sponsors or producers.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: Living or dead.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm Grim, your local Reaper.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: Be a part of the show and send me Grip.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: You know your hunky Grim Reaper, your experiences with ghosts, aliens, monsters, or even with me.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: Grim, we are looking for real experiences.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: You can send us an email through our website at Tempteries.com.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: If you survive,