Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Why You’re Great at Communicating With Everyone Except Your Partner (And How to Fix It) | Love | E557

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Why You’re Great at Communicating With Everyone Except Your Partner (And How to Fix It) | Love | E557 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 2: We fall into these patterns because We're emotionally reacting to
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  Speaker 2: something our partner says, but our emotional reaction can get
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  Speaker 2: in the way of our ability to hear and empathize.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Can I tell you a secret? Pretty much everybody who
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: darkens my door for marriage counseling or relationship coaching they
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: are leading with, we can't communicate. We have a communication problem.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: The thing that's always so interesting to me is that
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: this is almost always people who are fantastic communicators in
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: pretty much every other area of life, like work, friends, family,
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  Speaker 1: but something is going on in that interaction with your partner.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: that is leading things to break down, feel frustrating, or
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  Speaker 1: just come to a standstill.
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  Speaker 2: If I come from a family where communication was being
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: very loud and talking over each other and criticizing, and
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: my partner comes from a family where they don't talk
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: about their feelings and We don't talk about conflict. And
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: when we come together, we create this dynamic that we're
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: not understanding. Well, why don't you communicate the way I do?
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: This is how we communicate.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: So on today's episode of Love, Happiness, and Success, we
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  Speaker 1: are doing a deep dive into things that happen in
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  Speaker 1: communication with our intimate partners to get visibility into the
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: nature of the problem so that you have an effective solution.
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  Speaker 1: My hope is that by the end of our time
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  Speaker 1: together today, you have some concrete strategies that you can
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  Speaker 1: put into practice today to help the communication in your
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  Speaker 1: relationship start feeling easier.
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  Speaker 2: There are some things in here that, yes, may not
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  Speaker 2: feel good for my partner, but the way they communicate
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  Speaker 2: looks very different than the way I communicate. And we
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  Speaker 2: need to have an understanding of that. I think that's
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  Speaker 2: what's going to help us come together and bridge that gap.
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  Speaker 2: And welcome.
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  Speaker 1: If this is your first time tuning in, I'm Dr.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marie Bobby. My background, I am a psychologist. I'm
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist, and I'm also a very
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: proud board certified coach, which means that I take all
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: these deep, dark ideas and then translate them into actionable
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: strategies that support you in having better relationships, developing yourself
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: as a person, and also attaining the career goals that
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: feel exciting to you. And I could not be more
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: excited today to introduce a very special guest, my friend
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and colleague, Brandy Buckner. Like me, Brandy is an MFT
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: who specializes in coaching strategies that move insight into action
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  Speaker 1: and help couples, you know, take what they are learning
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: in the room and translate it to results outside. And Brandy.
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  Speaker 1: you're a communication expert. Let's just take it from the top.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we both hear so many stories about communication
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  Speaker 1: gone wrong, right? With so many of the couples and
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: also individuals for that matter, who are in relationships and
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: their primary complaint is we cannot talk to each other.
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  Speaker 1: Would you just start by taking us into why communication
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  Speaker 1: This type of communication, the communication with our partners can
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  Speaker 1: feel so much more fraught than literally anybody else we
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: talk to.
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  Speaker 2: What's going on? Yeah, I get a lot of couples
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: that come in to work on their communication. A lot
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  Speaker 2: of the times I hear them say things like, I
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: don't feel heard or understood by my partner. Anytime we
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: are trying to have a conversation, it turns into a fight.
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  Speaker 2: my feelings get dismissed or they feel like my feelings
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  Speaker 2: don't matter, right? And when this happens, they get stuck
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  Speaker 2: in this pattern where it just kind of feels like
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: they're fighting for that space to be heard and understood
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  Speaker 2: by the person that I care about the most, right?
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  Speaker 2: I just want you to hear me. And when this
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: continues over time, the relationship can feel emotionally unsafe for
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  Speaker 2: them or one or both of them. It can feel disconnected,
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  Speaker 2: and it can feel even isolating for them.
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  Speaker 1: Well, this is interesting, though, because, I mean, you're bringing
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: up a really good point. Like, we think of communication
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  Speaker 1: as the content, right? Like, what people are saying, literally
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  Speaker 1: with their words. But what you're saying is, like, no,
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  Speaker 1: it's actually a vibe. People want to feel a certain way.
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  Speaker 1: It's not, like, the words, the information. It's the experience.
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  Speaker 2: Is that it? Okay.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Exactly. All right. So like, well, take us more deeply
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  Speaker 1: into this because really, you know, what you're saying is,
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  Speaker 1: and I've experienced this in my relationship with other people,
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  Speaker 1: like people can say what are objectively the correct words
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  Speaker 1: and the correct order, but the tone, right? Or how
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  Speaker 1: you feel in that exchange, that changes everything.
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  Speaker 2: Why? Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So take us more deeply into that. I mean, why
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  Speaker 1: does that have so much power if it's not really
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  Speaker 1: about what's being said?
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  Speaker 2: I think it's because it's, you know, as we're talking about,
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  Speaker 2: it's the feeling. Like, I want to feel connected to you.
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  Speaker 2: I want to feel safe with you. And in order
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  Speaker 2: to feel that, I need to know you're here for me.
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  Speaker 2: I need to know you care about what I'm feeling,
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  Speaker 2: what I'm going through, and my concerns. And a lot
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  Speaker 2: of times when we look at these, when our communication
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: feels disconnected, what we're actually seeing in that is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: We're speaking over each other. We're trying to convince our
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: partner that they misunderstood me and they shouldn't feel that way, right?
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  Speaker 2: My intent, if you only knew what I was trying
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  Speaker 2: to say, then you wouldn't feel that way, right? So
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  Speaker 2: we kind of gloss over those feelings because we're trying
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: to justify where we're coming from. We can feel defensive
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: and now the conversation turns into defending myself or justifying
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  Speaker 2: or we shut down. Because it doesn't feel safe for me.
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  Speaker 2: So I disengage from the conversation. And our emotions can
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  Speaker 2: escalate in these times. So the conversation can turn into
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  Speaker 2: a fight. And then again, it doesn't feel connected. It
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  Speaker 2: doesn't feel safe for me.
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  Speaker 1: There's so much to unpack here, Brandy, first of all.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful that you are here to guide
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  Speaker 1: us through all of this. Because people, I'm sure, are
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  Speaker 1: having the same reaction that I am. That really, this
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: is so multidimensional. But can I also just say out loud,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: in your experience, is this also the reason why many
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: people who are in these moments, in these situations with
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: their partner where things are going sideways, where it feels
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  Speaker 1: so confusing and so frustrating because there's these totally different
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: operating systems and And like you can say, no, what
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  Speaker 1: I am saying right now is factually accurate. This is true.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: This happened, right? It's like a math problem. And I
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  Speaker 1: am operating in objective reality. So you need to understand blah, blah, blah.
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  Speaker 1: Where the other person is fighting for a totally different
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  Speaker 1: thing that maybe the other person is not aware of
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  Speaker 1: at all, which is how this feels. Do you see me?
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  Speaker 1: Do you care about me? Do I feel loved? And is...
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  Speaker 1: Is that what you see is happening here a lot
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  Speaker 1: of times around the disconnect?
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  Speaker 2: I think sometimes that can happen. Absolutely. I think thinking
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  Speaker 2: about like, why do we fall into these patterns? And
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  Speaker 2: a lot of times we don't even realize we're doing it.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's an important thing to acknowledge is
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  Speaker 2: we're not going into these conversations with, I don't care
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  Speaker 2: about your feelings, right? I don't want to hear what
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  Speaker 2: you have to say. We just are unintentionally getting stuck
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  Speaker 2: into these patterns. And it can come from a couple
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  Speaker 2: of places. A lot of times we have two different
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  Speaker 2: types of communication styles. Like what we learned growing up
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  Speaker 2: really impacts that watching our parents communicate or other people
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  Speaker 2: in our lives, like how they communicated. If I come
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  Speaker 2: from a family where communication was being very loud and
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  Speaker 2: talking over each other and criticizing, And my partner comes
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  Speaker 2: from a family where they don't talk about their feelings
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  Speaker 2: and we don't talk about conflicts. And when we come together,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: we create this dynamic that we're not understanding. Well, why
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  Speaker 2: don't you communicate the way I do? This is how
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  Speaker 2: we communicate. And it's just that we didn't learn some
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: of these things or we have different ways of communicating
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  Speaker 2: and they come into this dynamic that just doesn't work
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  Speaker 2: for us.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right.
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  Speaker 2: Right. Well, or another thing that can happen is that
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  Speaker 2: we fall into these patterns because we're emotionally reacting to
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  Speaker 2: something our partner says, right? Our emotional reaction can get
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  Speaker 2: in the way of our ability to hear and empathize
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  Speaker 2: with our partner and their experience.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. I can relate, you know, getting really activated. You
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  Speaker 1: get so focused on your own experience. It's really hard
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  Speaker 1: to have empathy for somebody else if you feel like
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  Speaker 1: you're being especially hurt or disrespected. That's what you see.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can absolutely relate to that too.
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  Speaker 2: And in my own relationship, that is definitely something that
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  Speaker 2: can happen for me.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I definitely want to hear all of your
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: ideas about solutions and how to resolve this. But I'm
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: so glad we're actually spending some time here, Brandy, like
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  Speaker 1: really exploring what actually is happening when things go sideways.
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  Speaker 1: Because I think without this depth of understanding, it can
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: be really easy for people to go to superficial solutions
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  Speaker 1: and like try to– what's the word, like technique their
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  Speaker 1: way out of it without really getting like why things
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  Speaker 1: are happening at all. And so I feel that always
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  Speaker 1: the first step in understanding and changing a behavior is
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: that like self-awareness piece. So I just really appreciate you
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  Speaker 1: talking us through this. Can we go back to something
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  Speaker 1: that I thought was so important, what you said a
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  Speaker 1: minute ago was related to how we learned what communication
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  Speaker 1: should be in our families of origin. And relatedly, I
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: think how easy it is for all of us to
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  Speaker 1: then impose our inherited ideas about what communication should be
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  Speaker 1: onto our partners and be like, you're doing it wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Do you see that?
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: And like, are people actually doing it wrong or are
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: there totally valid ways of communicating that are just different
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  Speaker 1: and creating hurt?
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think I see that a lot.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: And, um, we think, well, this is the way we
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: should be communicating. This is how it's done. And, and
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: my partner is doing it wrong. Right. Yeah. When the
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: realities are, are different ways for us to communicate. Right. And, and, and,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: There are some things in here that, yes, may not
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: feel good for my partner, but the way they communicate
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: looks very different than the way I communicate. And we
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: need to have an understanding of that. I think that's
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: what's going to help us come together and bridge that gap. Yeah.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And that's so valuable, you know, because I think before
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: you really do that, like to your point a minute ago,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: people get upset, like their feelings get hurt. They get
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: emotionally activated. And so I think the type of exploration
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you're advising is be like, oh, maybe not personalize this
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  Speaker 1: quite as much. Maybe my partner isn't behaving this way
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: because of me. Maybe this is how they were socialized
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: to communicate. And that even though the same thing is happening,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: it could take some of the energy.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Out of it absolutely I think that's a good point
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  Speaker 2: of like changing how you're seeing that this isn't about
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: them attacking me or dismissing me this is how they
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: communicate right and we're communicating differently and that's why we
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: can't get on the same page right and just having
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: that awareness that it just looks different for us I
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: think can ease that and turn it into a instead
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: of a me versus you it's a we Right. And
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: how do we come together to balance out our communication
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: styles and what this looks like for us so that
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: we can connect instead of disconnecting?
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Brandi, thank you for just shining a light on
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: all this stuff that can, I think, really get hidden, right,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: in the fog of war, so to speak. Like everybody's upset.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Nobody is thinking about any of these things. And just
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: like in this calm space to be like, you might consider,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: you know, these things I think are so helpful. Um,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: and we need to take a super quick break, but
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: on the other side of it, I would love to
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: get your insight into two other pieces of this. Just, just,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: just see like what's here and what people do with this.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: If there are potentially differences in attachment styles that are
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: maybe coming in to this and, and also just your
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: insights around how to begin to create mutual, not just understanding,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: but that feeling of love and respect for each side
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: so that everything else becomes possible. I mean, if you
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: cannot communicate in a relationship about basic things, any other
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: problems that you're dealing with that are like actual problems
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: or places where you need to get an alignment.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: On, you're stuck.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Like you cannot solve problems together if you can't talk
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: about it. So this is crucially important. And I'd love
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: to start chipping away at this with you.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: off your 15-inch calendar. Welcome back, you guys. We are
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: with my friend and colleague, marriage and family therapist, Brandi Buckner,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: who is a communication expert. In the first part of
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: the show, she was unpacking some of the reasons why
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: communication goes sideways. So you can get a under the
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: hood view. But now we're going to dig in even
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: deeper and talk about how our communication styles can also
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: be related to attachment styles and what to do about that.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: So Brandy, let's assume, I think for the most part,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: that most people listening are familiar with the general concept
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: of attachment styles, meaning that our life experiences shape our
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: expectations of ourselves and other people. And some of this
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: can happen through early attachment experiences with our parents or caregivers, obviously.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: But also, I think it's interesting that research shows that
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: our attachment styles continue to develop across our lifespan, including
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: experiences that we have with friends, romantic partners, through early
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: adulthood and beyond. So this is not necessarily a stable thing.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Although when people have extreme experiences in early childhood, there
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: does tend to be more rigidity around attachment orientations that
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: can start to create problems in relationships. But beyond that,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I think all of us tend to fall on one
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: side of that bell curve or the other. So tell
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: us more about this and how it influences communication.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it, you know, looking at your attachment style, right?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: If I'm, if one partner is more anxious, they're the
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: one in this communication that's going to want to pursue
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and talk about it and might get more emotionally reactive, right?
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Where if the other partner is more avoidant, that's the
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: person that when we're in communication and doesn't start feeling good,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to shut down more. I'm going to disengage
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: from the conversation. And I think about, you know, looking
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: at some of the couples I have and even my
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: own relationship and experience with attachment styles, I tend to
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: lean more onto the avoidant side, right? So, yeah. Me too.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: I think avoidant people get a bad reputation, honestly. Like,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I relate to that.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. So, and what, you know, for me and
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: my partner, what that can look like is absolutely, I'm
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: the one that I have to really catch myself and realize, okay, Brandy,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you're shutting down, right? Because that is my go-to. When
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: things don't feel good for me in our conversation, I
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: want to shut down. And my partner is like, no,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: let's talk about this. We got to get through it.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: We got to work through it. I'm like, no, no, no.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: That doesn't sound good for me.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And so you see this.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Dynamic happen in that where I push away and he pursues.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: And the more he pursues, the more I push away.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: And then at the end of it, we're both feeling
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: not good about the situation. And we got nowhere. Right.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: You another question I hope this isn't too personal you
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: asked me personal questions too I'll go to all the
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: places with you Brandy but like so you know the
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: other thing that I'm curious about like I think that
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: my natural orientation is definitely towards avoidance like I'm not
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: going to trust people right off the bat I will
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: tend to kind of like never mind I'll show myself
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: out kind of right but So I think that is natural.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Like I can carry that into different types of relationships.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: And that's one way to identify like really your attachment styles.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Like how do you show up with all humans, not
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: just your partner? But interestingly, with different people, we can
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: flip that. Like there's something related to relational dynamics. Like
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: I would wonder if you were ever had some kind
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: of a connection with maybe with a friend or a
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: family member or somebody. who had a style that was
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: even more withdrawn than you, that you would find yourself
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: in that role of pursuer because of that desire to connect.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know that that's happened to me as well. Like, wait,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you're not going to talk to me? Oh, yes, you are.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: You know, like that kind of thing. Have you noticed
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: that in yourself?
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Definitely in myself. You know, when I
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: look back at some other relationships I've had, even like
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: previous romantic relationships or even friendships, right, where I have
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: had a situation where they are more avoidant than I am.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what's happening here? I'm the one that's supposed
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: to distance, not you, right?
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to text them again.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting because it does shift that for you
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: of feeling like, okay, well, now I have to pursue
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: a little bit because they're not going to do it, right?
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Or on the other end of this, I've had some relationships,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: specifically some really great friendships where they've been more on
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: the secure side and that's, helped me kind of get
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: out of that avoidance and feel like, oh, this is
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: a safe place. I can move a little bit towards
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: being secure and opening up and not pushing away, right?
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: So I see that happen in a lot of different
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: areas in my relationships. And I see that a lot
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: with couples that I work with as well.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: Well, okay.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Then with that in mind, would you be willing to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: go into maybe even some like real world concrete examples
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: like And for our friends here listening in on this
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: conversation about communication and thinking about, OK, so like, but
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: what do I do?
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: I would love to hear your thoughts about what it
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: might look like habitually if you have an avoidant versus
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: maybe anxious attachment style like.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Versus.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: What you could say instead or how you could show
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: up instead, just to begin to develop some awareness and
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: some strategies that friends listening could even try today. So
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: goal number one is to think about what do you
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: usually do when things get stressful? And then goal number
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: two is this like, if this were working well, what
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: would I be doing differently? So, and we're highlighting the gap,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: not to make you feel bad, but to highlight the
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: opportunities for positive change.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, Yeah. Yeah. All right.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: So stressful situations, somebody who's like us, where it tends
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: to be more avoided.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Where do we go with that?
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: It doesn't work. So what I would say is that
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: really the, I think the first thing is really having
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: that awareness and checking in with yourself. What's happening for me, right?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Paying attention. If this conversation is starting to feel a
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: little too much for me, overwhelmed, and I start noticing
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: that I'm pulling back, taking that awareness of checking in,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: what's going on with me? How am I feeling? What
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: do I need in this moment? And a lot of
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: times when we're feeling that overwhelmed before the conversation starts
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: to go sour or turns into a conflict, that's when
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: we need to have a break. Just take that break
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: for both sides. Talk with your partner about creating a
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: timeout role of like, this is what we do when
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: things aren't feeling good in the conversation and they start
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: going sour. We're going to take a 20 minute break.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take some time alone to regulate and
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: to bring myself back down to have that space so
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: that I can come back and be more present with
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: the conversation as the avoidant. Because that's really what happens
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: for us is I disengage. I shut down from the conversation. Yeah.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, with your permission, and I certainly don't want
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: to push you into places that you don't care to go.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: And I could talk about myself, but like, I think
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: even on a deeper level of visibility, like, yes, wanting
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: to pull back or, you know, have all kinds of excuses.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I know we should talk about this right now, blah, blah, blah.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: But like the internal narrative can also go dark. You're
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: being unreasonable right now. I can't talk to you. Or
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: like there are negative things. beliefs that go along with
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: this that can lead an avoidant person to feel hopeless,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: that support that feeling of, yeah, I don't want to.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: This doesn't feel safe for me and I need to
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: just not. I feel like this is the important part
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: because here's what matters, I think. We can look at
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: communication patterns that might be associated with an avoidance style,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: things like criticism, contempt, right? Even stonewalling, that shutting down.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: But people don't have to be saying any of those
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: things out loud for somebody to feel that with you.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And that's really where we need to go. So like,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: what do avoidant people need to know about how they're
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: making other people feel?
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, right? When
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: I think about, you know, even in my own experience,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: that internal dialogue that may happen, you know, my partner
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: may say something that when you really look at it
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: is that it's triggering for me because it hits something
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: in that avoidant side of me and from my past.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: But what's really happening in my head is that they
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: don't care, right? Or what I have to say isn't important.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: You know, those kind of things can come up for
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: me that put that wall up of no, no, no,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to stop here. I'm not going to
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: continue in this conversation or in this state. Yeah. Maybe
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not worth continuing in that space, right? Those are
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the kind of things that I think can go on internally.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: And they're so individual. And that's why this is really
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: worth reflection. You know, like, just as I'm hearing you
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: talk about what comes up for you in those moments,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I was also sort of sitting, and I hear everything
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: that you're saying. And, like, just reflecting on my own,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I think it's, like, this... like, I don't, I don't
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: trust you right now. I don't feel safe enough to
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: stay in this place with you. I'm not trusting your judgment.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: You're not in control of yourself. Like this almost self-protective
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: type piece and this, I think also feeling alone and like,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter anyway. This isn't going to change. I
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: am on my own to figure this out. And yeah,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: exit stage right. And so these are just two examples
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that Brandy and I are sharing. But friends, think about
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: what that inner dialogue turns into for you. And then
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: some examples of what the communication needs to look like
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: between you and yourself in order for this to be
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: a little bit better. So what does your communication with
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: yourself look like, Brandy, when you're able to stay in
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the ring or.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah I love that you brought that up because I
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: think that's when we talk about communication in a relationship
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: it's also like the communication a relationship you have with
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: yourself right that also needs to be addressed and and
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: really yeah when I get in those moments that having
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to remind myself like no you're you're not alone You
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: are worthy. This person does care about you. That's why
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: they're here in this conversation and wanting to continue in
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: this space with you. So what you have to say
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: does matter. How you feel does matter, right? It's like,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I have to pep myself up in that moment of,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: it's okay to stay here. You're going to be okay.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: This is going to be safe space for you and
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: your voice matters, right? Yeah. Because for you, Lisa, what is,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: what do you have to say to yourself?
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: You know what? This is so like, honestly, honestly, Brandy,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: I'm getting so much out of this session with you.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I was like, I haven't actually thought about this before.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So for me, I think it is, first of all,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I think I need to be aware of my patterns
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: and like the way that I think that is probably
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: not always reality based in these moments. I just like
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: check myself on that. Like just because I'm telling myself
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: this doesn't mean that it's true, which is hard to do.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Like we all drink our own Kool-Aid, you know what
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I mean? So anyway, there's that. I also.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I do need to respect the fact that I probably
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: do need some time and use my words and say,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: this is not a productive conversation right now. Let's both
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: retreat and come back together. And I think the other
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: thing that I need to tell myself, especially I think
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: with my partner, with my husband, is that he does
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: get very– He gets like activated. So he's definitely sort
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: of a more emotional kind of processor than I am.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: And that when he is really elevated, like I know
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that he needs some time to calm down. And the
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: other thing, like even if I do get upset, like
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: for me, I can usually bounce back like within a
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: fairly quick period of time. He might actually need like
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: a day or three to sort of like get to
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: a better place. And so I've learned over the years
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: that that needs to happen sometimes. And to have patience
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: for that, but also to say that out loud and
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: not try to, you know, solve problems when he's really
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: not feeling good. And to be able to reflect that
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: back to him with a lot of empathy and compassion. Like,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: this was really triggering for you. This is really upsetting
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: for you. And like, I need to deal with him.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting because I feel like when I look
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: at me and my partner's relationship where that opposite of
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: I need more time right and he he gets over
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: things a little bit quicker and it's like okay how
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: are you doing right and and when I think about
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: how I need to show up in those moments is
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: you know kind of align what you're saying of communicating
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: that of like we're good I'm I'm right we're going
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: to be okay. Right. But I still need a little
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: bit more time to just process what's happening for me
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: where he's the one that's ready to like connect again and,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: and we're fine and we'll get over it. And, and
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: just me being aware of that communication of, he just
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: doesn't realize that I might need a little bit more
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: time and I need to be able to communicate that
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: to him. Like we're going to be fine, but right
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: now I just need a couple extra, like five, 10 minutes. Yeah.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Right. That's so awesome. Well, and what another phenomenal takeaway here, Brandy,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: is that like to be able to communicate effectively above
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and beyond, you know, the techniques like say these words
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: and everything will be better. No, that is not what
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: we're talking about at all. We're really going into these
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: dimensions of deep self-understanding and habitual ways of relating with
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: other people, with ourselves and needing visibility into that, but
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: also to having visibility into our partner's patterns. And like,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: this is the way my partner tends to process things.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: And that is something that can only develop over time.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: And I think with a lot of, I don't know
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: if observation is the right word, like, a desire to understand.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, looking at my
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: relationship from the beginning to where we are now, like
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: seeing that over time, like for me being able to, like,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: I want to know about what that looks like for him.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: And he wants to know what that looks like for
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: me too. And even now, like when we, sometimes I
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: still get into these patterns, right? And what's really cool
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: that has happened for me and him is that he
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: kind of gets on board with helping me where he'll,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: kindly and compassionately point out like, Hey, you're shutting down.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Like what's going on? Come back to me. He'll say
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: little things like that. Cause he has that awareness of, okay,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: this is what she does. And I'm like, Oh, you're right.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I did. I am shutting down. Let me come back
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: to you. And it helps us. It actually brings us
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: closer and connect because we're kind of doing that work
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: together to realize each other's what's happening for each other.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's so good.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: That's so good.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: But again, like the emotional safety that you two have
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: earned with each other, because I'm also sitting here thinking
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: like there could be another couple, another situation where that
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: trust hasn't been earned.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: And somebody could say, where did you just go? And
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: it could be received like.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Criticism.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Criticism, like, you know, like not helpful right now. And
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: that you're like allowing him to help you in that moment,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I think is really cool. Wow. So much good stuff. Okay, Brandy,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: we have to take another super quick break. But on
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: the other side, I'd love to talk about somebody who
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: maybe does tend to have a more reactive communication style
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: rather than a avoidant communication style to understand this whole dynamic,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: what they might consider doing differently. And then also what
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I'd love to end on, if it's okay with you,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: is just your thoughts as a systemic therapist, which is very,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: very different from a regular therapist, right? Who is typically
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: trained in individual psychology. We are trained in relational and
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: systemic psychology to talk about the power that we all
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: have to influence our entire dynamic, not by hyper-focusing on
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: what our partner is doing or not doing, but really
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: focusing on what we are putting into that system and
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: what we have the ability to influence and also maybe
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: what we can't influence.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Can we do that?
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 36:10
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• 38:06
  Speaker 1: off your 15-inch calendar. Coming back from our break, you guys,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: with my friend and colleague, marriage and family therapist, Brandi Buckner,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: a communication expert who is really unpacking the deeper levels
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: of understanding our patterns in communication, also those of our partners,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: And giving us visibility into the kinds of things that
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: can help us heal and grow together. So, Brandy, just
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: before we pause for a break, I asked if it
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: would be okay with you to talk more about healing.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: how we can support someone listening to this right now
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: who might be more reactive when conflict or stress comes
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: up in communication. And also, too, you know, somebody who's
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: in a relationship with somebody who is more reactive. Like,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: it's helpful to understand that perspective. So where do we
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: start with that?
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, talking about someone who's in
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: a relationship with somebody who's more reactive, like, The same
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: as we talked about with avoiding is just having that
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: desire to understand what's happening for them, what's going on, right?
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: When we look at someone who has more of an
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: anxious attachment style, they tend to overthink and overanalyze everything.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: point in the conversation with my partner. What do they
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: mean by this? Do they really care about me? They
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: need a lot more of that reassurance of do they care?
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Do they want to be here? And then sometimes when
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: we do feel like you're not hearing me, you're not
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: here for me, Some of those lashing out behaviors may
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: happen or that pursue can come out, right? Where I
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: need to know that you care about me. I need
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: you to stay here with me. And so just having
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: that awareness of what's going on for my partner, again,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: on that side of this isn't about them attacking me
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: or necessarily not trusting my words. This is something that
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: is going on for them that I need to have
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: some more compassion and understanding of. of what's happening for
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: them so that we can work through this together. Yeah.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: See, this is, this is where I think it can
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: get hard though, because in my experience, like what you're
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: describing and friends, if you feel like you can relate
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: to this, let's just, talk through this all together. And
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: this might not be true for everyone, but like there's,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I think that sometimes when people have a more anxious
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: orientation towards relationships, they can feel hurt or offended or
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: bothered or unloved by things that might be subtle to
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: someone else, that's like somebody with my orientation, like I
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: don't notice them at all. And so like I have
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: said something or done something that has created offense, like unintentionally,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: like I'm not setting out to hurt somebody, but that
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: is still how it landed. And I need to take
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: responsibility for that. But then that like the inside feeling
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: is frequently so vulnerable, like, right? Like, do you care
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: about me? Do you love me? I'm scared. I'm hurting,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: like all vulnerable things. But what it looks like on
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: the outside can be, to your point, lashing out, hostility,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: saying mean things, right? Like anger. That's what we see.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: So this is where it gets hard. And usually somebody
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: that feels hurt feels justified than lashing out and being
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: mean because you've been mean to me. So why shouldn't I?
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Yep. And I think to that, to that justification of,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I feel so hurt. And you, you know, you talk
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: about that vulnerability piece. Like I, for them, it's, I'm
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: feeling vulnerable. I'm letting it all out and, and sharing
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: this with you. And you're not holding that space for me.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: You're not reaching back out for me. Right. And so
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: that can feel even more hurtful. alone really for them
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: and isolating that that also plays into that well you're
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: not there for me so this is how I'm going
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: to almost you know when you talk about like that
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: lashing out behavior it's like I need you to see
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: me right I'm doing this to gain that attention for
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: you to see me and to see how much I'm
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: hurting and how much I need you so it's really
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: it's not to hurt the other person sometimes it's So
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: you can see how much pain I'm in and that
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: you can help me and be here for me. I know.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: This is so hard, though, because that's and I hear
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: you and I agree with you. And so, friends, what
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Brandy is also talking about is, I mean, really what
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: you're talking about right now are the core tenets of
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: something called emotionally focused couples therapy, where we can reinterpret
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: what's happening between two people as a manifestation of those
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: attachment needs. So when somebody is like, how dare you?
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: You said you were going to unload the dishwasher and
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: you suck and I hate you and blah, blah, blah,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. I'm being extra right now. But that
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: what we as marriage and family therapists do is like
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: work with a couple to help that person who's feeling
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: really escalated say, I feel like you don't care about me.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: And when you say you're going to do something and
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: you don't, it makes me feel very alone in this relationship. Like,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: That's where we want to get people to, but that's
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: not what is happening in the moment. And I think
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: for avoidant people like us, like you're being scary right
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: now because like whatever, right? So like what would somebody
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: who has that reflexively like that style need to know
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: in order to have a better experience with their partner
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: and be responsible for the communication that they're putting into
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: the system?
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think looking at, you know, you really hit
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: it of that, that they're underneath that lashing out saying,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: you don't care, you're not helping me. It's really, I
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: need you and that vulnerability. And when you look at
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: it in an EFT or emotionally focused kind of frame, it's,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: we have those primary emotions and the secondary. And a
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: lot of times we speak from that secondary, that anger,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: it feels less vulnerable. It feels safer for us, right? Versus,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: if I can speak from the primary, that loneliness, that
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: feeling unsafe, feeling like we're not a team, my partner
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: can hear me a lot better if I can just
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: speak from that. And it's easier said than done because that's,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: you know, I have to be vulnerable. I have to
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: open that spot and hope that they reach out and
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: take that.
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: And, and so it's really trying to speak from that
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: primary emotion. What's really happening for me? There might be
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: some anger there. I might be frustrated, but what's underneath that?
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: What's another emotion that is happening for me? Is it
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: the hurt, the loneliness? And speaking from that and telling
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: my partner, this is what I'm also feeling. Yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: See, this is so good. And that's going back to
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: that parallel. What's a conversation that you need to have
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: with yourself before you can have good communication.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: With your partner?
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: And so So what I'm hearing is for somebody who
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: is more reactive to be like, okay, slow down. Yes,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: you're feeling angry in the moment. And what is this
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: really about for you? So almost like putting yourself in
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: timeout and not actually saying everything you're thinking and feeling
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: in the moment, but saying, I am going to go
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: journal and like whatever it is to be able to
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: come back into that conversation and say, okay, so here's
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: how I'm really feeling and be able to articulate those
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: primary feelings. emotions like that would be a strategy.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah absolutely I think one thing that we don't acknowledge
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: enough is that sometimes we don't even know what we're
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: feeling right and so having again taking that break and
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: having that communication with the relationship you have with yourself
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: because sometimes I don't even know that there's something underneath
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: that anger I just know the anger right and so
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I need to take that time to sit what else
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: is happening before I can even communicate it to my partner.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: If I don't know, how are they going to know? Totally.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: And that's why the type of experience that you and
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I can create for people to like, yeah, what am
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I feeling right now can be so valuable is because
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: we have to get under our own hood. in order
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: to be able to, to manage these moments differently. And
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: before you have the opportunity to do that, I mean,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: legitimately do not know what's going on. You're just, all
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: you have is a surface stuff. So it's powerful.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Okay. Brandy.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: So before I let you go, can you please share
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: with us now a, a happy story of transformation that
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: goes into the power of the system. So if, If
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: anyone seeks to take responsibility for the way that they
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: are showing up in their relationship, keeping their side of
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: the street clean, starting with, you know, perhaps somebody who
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: is more avoidant and who might not, you know, engage
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: or talk about things and, you know, go like, okay, bye.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: What does it look like on the other side of
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: the equation, even if I start being more emotionally present here?
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: For somebody who does tend to be more reactive, like
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: how could that change the system for the better, whether
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: or not they're doing anything intentionally?
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the thing to really think about with
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: that and what we've been talking about is that like.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Checking in with yourself, right, a lot of times I'll
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: see couples come in at the start of our work
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: together and we're really focused on, you know, if my partner.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: would change these things, right? If they wouldn't be so avoidant,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: if they wouldn't be so anxious. Yeah, and it's really,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: you know, as we've talked about, get to know yourself
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: first and see how am I showing up in here
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: and how is that going to change the dynamic in
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: the relationship? And I've had so many couples, as we've
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: worked together, be able to do that where they're starting
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: to come in and recognize that. They're no longer focused
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: on how my partner shows up. Then I'm focused on
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: how am I showing up? How can I check in
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: with myself and start moving more towards conversations if I'm
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: avoided instead of, you know, stepping away from them if
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I'm anxious? how can I start setting clear, understanding what
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: my needs even are, first of all, and then be
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: able to clearly communicate that to my partner. Yeah. And
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: so that way, when we're focused on ourselves, we actually
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: give space to our partner to focus on themselves. And
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: before we know it, we're actually coming together and the
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: dynamic is shifting versus us just being stuck and waiting
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: for the other person. When we're waiting for the other person,
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: no one moves.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I'll be nice to you when you X, Y, Z.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: And what you're saying is do your own work and
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: really like focus on what you need to pay attention to.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: And I'll just share. I mean, I think for me
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: in my life, Yes, being more, you know, I think
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: that maybe one of the primary problems for me when
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I think about it is like, I'll just kind of
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: keep going, you know, like, it'll be fine, right? And
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: what I have needed is like, no, not fine, even
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: though maybe it doesn't bother me, I know that it
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: bothers them. So if it's important to them, it needs
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: to be important to me. And if they're upset, you know,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: to seek to understand and to like slow down and
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: sort of not, not drag and fly out of there,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: but sort of stay in the ring. And, and I
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: think that, um, creates a type of experience that you're
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: talking about. Like if my partner is not okay, it's
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: okay that they're not okay. Right. And, and that's that
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: emotional connection piece. Um, but what does that look like
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: in your house when you're, when you're doing your work
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: that supports, um, the type of communication that you want
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: to have, if it's okay to ask.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think the initial thing for me
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: is when my, you know, something is said, I have
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: to take that step back and be like, okay, you're
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: having a feeling, recognize it. Something came up. That's okay.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: And recognize that you're about to try to step away
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: and be like, no, no, forget it. Right. We don't
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: have to talk about this. Realize it. It, is important
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: to talk about it and to continue if I want
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: to have that connection because ultimately even as an avoidant
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: when I really look at myself deep down I do
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: want to have that connection I do want to feel
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: close to you it's a fear and it's okay to
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: have that fear and the best way to get over
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: that fear is to work through it instead of running
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: away from it so I think that's the biggest thing
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: that happens for me keep going at the end of
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: this it will actually be better.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah Yeah, like sort of verbally talk yourself through.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I'm okay. I'm all right. Yeah. So give us an
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: example of maybe somebody that you've worked with where their
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: work is that anxious reactivity that can manifest either in anger,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: sometimes control. What does that look like when they're doing
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: their own work and how does that influence how the
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: other person behaves in response?
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so couples that I've had where they have that
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: anxious-avoidant dynamic, one of the biggest things that I see
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: come up and how it's changed for them.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Is when we talk about they're in these conversations and
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: it starts escalating, right? Yeah. Typically, a client who is
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: aligned more with anxious, they want to keep going, right?
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: And when we talk about setting that break for them,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: that's really hard. for someone who aligns more with anxious
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: of we can't take a break. We need to work
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: through this. And, you know, I've had some couples where it's,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: you know, being able to sit with that and realize
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: like you also need that break. That's actually going to
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: be beneficial for you and the relationship. And then being
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: able to see that and take that break, but know
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: that the break does not mean we're not going to
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: talk about the conversation. We're going to come back.
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: And so trusting that we're going to come back and
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: setting those times. OK, I know we're going to come
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: back in in 20 minutes. And when they do that,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: they're able to. I've seen that transformation of like, oh, yeah,
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: I actually call breaks now where the beginning they didn't
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: call break. They were like, no, no, no, we don't
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: need breaks because we're not going to come back to it.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: We're now that client is like, oh, yeah, I call
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: breaks now because I see I see that it helps
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: me and I see that it brings us closer together
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: when we try again in the conversation.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I don't want to upset anybody listening to this. I
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: feel like though, it needs to be said explicitly that,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: and I say this as, as a marriage counselor, relationship coach,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: and I don't know that I would say this out
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: loud to somebody in the room who's like having an
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: experience because I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to feel, um,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't want them to feel emotionally unsafe with me,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: but assuming that everybody listening to this, like we're all
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: all right, we're in a, A neutral space. We could
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: take in information. I think that what I have seen
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: be very transformational in my work with couples is when
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: someone who does have that anxious or reactive orientation is
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: able to own how they are experienced. Like, even though
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: I feel very justified in how I'm acting right now,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: other people are experiencing me as aggressive, hostile, controlling, emotionally unsafe,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: And I need to calm down and come from that
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: place of authentic vulnerability because it's not going to go
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: well if I keep doing this. And that's like a
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: hard thing to hold. I mean, do you disagree? And
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I'm saying it very bluntly. Like, again, I would not
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: say that to somebody who's having an experience in my office,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: but yeah.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I'm going to, you know,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: how they have this, this need and this vulnerability of I'm,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just telling you this way. I think they don't
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: see that. And to, and to have that awareness or
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: be able to hear it from your partner or somebody
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: else and have that clarity of like, Oh, this is
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: how I'm showing up. And to be able to, like
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: you said, own that and take accountability for that. I
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: think that is a big piece of chance where they
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: can start turning and that and shifting of like, oh,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: this is actually how I'm showing up and this is
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: actually not helping. It's not helping the relationship, but it's
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: also not helping me get my needs met. If the
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: goal for me is to get my needs met, the
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: way I'm doing it is actually not helping. It's actually
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: distancing us more and I'm feeling even more isolated at.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: The end of it. This is so powerful, Brandy. And
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I know that our time is coming to a close
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: here and I have to let you go, but I'm
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: so grateful for this conversation. And also, you know, the
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: last part of what we were just discussing is making
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: me so aware that what we are talking about is
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: not informational information. It is not the technique. It is
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: not what you say. It is not something that Claude
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: is going to advise you to do. And I think
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: that that is the power of what you are doing
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: in your work with people is that you are helping
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: them have an experience that transforms their understanding, not just
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: of their partner, but really of themselves. And creating this
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: new awareness that is so incredibly vital in order to
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: change communication for the better in any meaningful way. So
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: happy to report our jobs are AI safe, at least
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: for the moment. I mean, but like, does that feel
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: true to you, what I just said?
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, it does. It absolutely does. I think that, you know,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: those are things that we don't... don't always get said
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: out loud and clients specifically don't realize like that's really
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: going deeper into the work to help you really make
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: these changes and have a better relationship with yourself and
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: with your partner in any relationship right even in friendships.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: Brandy this has been so great i mean i just
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: really appreciate your time here um not to knock anybody,
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: but on the show, we have a diverse range of
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: guests and I only bring people on the show that
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: have a lot of value to share with our community.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: And I always appreciate that. But my experience of talking
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: with you today, kind of like the soundbite, do these
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: three things and your life will be transformed and sounds
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: good on social media. In contrast to a practitioner like you,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: who does this really deep work that is not an
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: easy fix. And like what we're talking about is transformation
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: that often occurs over months at least. And just the
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: power and the value of what you're doing day in
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and day out. And so thank you for everything you're
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: doing and for sharing your perspective with us today.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. It's been a pleasure.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: And so I will share if anybody is interested in
• 58:36
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