Latest / Humanity Working / Bonus Episode: The Intangibles of Great Work (Part 2), Featuring Dan Rust

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Bonus Episode: The Intangibles of Great Work (Part 2), Featuring Dan Rust · Humanity Working

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everybody, welcome, or perhaps I should say welcome back.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh joined again by uh by Dan Rust, head of global leadership and organizational development at InfoPro Learning and author of the amazing book, Workplace Poker.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: I know Dan's got another book uh in the pipeline coming up as well, which is gonna be very exciting.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um we had such a great conversation last time uh that we agreed at that point that we were gonna come back and effectively do part two.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: So if you've not seen part one, I would urge you to go back in your feed, look back about a uh a week or so and you will find it.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh I'm ready.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm ready for that overtime.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: Are you Dan?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I am ready.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like um we had a great party.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was invited to a party and it went so well that I got invited to the after party.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So uh great to be a part of that.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you very much.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, that's that's not a common occurrence for me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's not for you either.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: So so let's let's have fun on that after party.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um okay, so I recall where we were, Dan.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you know uh if you do.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh we had just been discussing the role of luck in a person's career, and I think you had a question for me, is that right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so here's here's my question to you, Paul.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: What are the biggest mistakes you see leaders make in this new world of work?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: So gosh, that is that that actually is a is a really, really interesting question because one of the things that I reflect on as a leader is there is a there are a lot of mistakes that I that that I have made in the past as a leader and continu and continue to make um every day.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there's a like any leader that thinks they're not making mistakes is probably not really being self-reflective enough.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um so the last thing I want to do is kind of convey the impression that that mistakes are a bad thing or mistakes are um are something that that should be dwelled upon excessively as being as being negative.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, if you're somebody once said to me, a mentor once said to me, if you're if you're if you don't think you're making mistakes, you're either completely lacking self-awareness or you're living a life that is designed to minimize mistakes and therefore is designed to minimize opportunity.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: So so I do think that that's a I think that's really important backdrop to anything that we that we talk to about this.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: But in my world, you know, which is largely focused on the intangibles of of great work and and uh what it is to be um to be successful in ways that are not specifically aligned to job-specific skills and are more aligned at the individual level to um to the capabilities that humans bring to work and at a organizational level to the sort of supporting structure that enables that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: In that world, I think probably the biggest mistake that uh leaders make is uh treating the world in which they live today as being the same as the world that they grew up in.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um so as humans, no matter what we do, we we tend to get like stuck in periods of our lives when we were uh when we were very successful and or that were good for us, and we uh and we find it difficult to leave those.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know if you've ever seen any of the these sort of makeover shows that they used to do in, I don't know if they still do them, but but they used to do these makeover shows with like older uh with older people, people in their 60s and 70s or whatever.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And almost invariably the people were being made over because let's say the 1970s was like a good era for them and they never stopped dressing like somebody in the 1970s, or they never stopped dressing like somebody in the 1980s because that worked for them in that period and they never and they never moved on from it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Leaders have their their own version of that, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, as in I did this, it worked, I'm gonna carry on doing this, and it will carry on working.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that is ignoring the fact that everything is happening underneath those leaders is changing.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: We put a when I first work with organizations, we often put a chart in front of people that like shows the who, the when, the where, the why, the what of work.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we show what it was like, say 15, 20 years ago, and what it is like today.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: And every single one of them is different.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: So given that every single one of those things is different, if you are using the same approaches now that you were using then, those things are not gonna work necessarily very well.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: And you know how they say the definition of insanity is doing this is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think that's kind of wrong, right?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: The definition of insanity when it comes to leadership is doing the same thing and expecting the same results.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because you shouldn't get the same results because everything under you is different, right?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the um that I would say is number is number one for me.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just explore that a oh please, yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: So and I think the the the mistake under that mistake is not recognizing how profoundly different the world is compared to your own formative years.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, each of us has a timeline generally in our 20s, 30s, maybe early 40s, that I would call our formative years.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't even necessarily recognize that's when the grooves in our in our mental road are being are being created in our in our habits and patterns.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the world today, if you if you really pay attention, is so, as I said, profoundly different in terms of the amount of information.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: We are all cognitively overloaded.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're being we're being washed over with with data, with entertainment, with with storylines, with business information, entertainment information, um misinformation, fake news, fake data, fake lots of things.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: But that and that's that's just one part of the difference today.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: The pace of business is faster today than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we're more medicated today than we were 20 or 30 years ago.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Our diets are worse today.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: We're not feeding our brains.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're feeding we're feeding that part of our gut that that craves salt and sugar and fat, but we're not really feeding our brains.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that does have an impact on our cognitive abilities and the way we operate in the world.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Geopolitically, it's different.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, businesses are different, technology is different.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many differences that if you, as a leader, aren't really paying attention to all of that, it's real easy to just um say, well, okay, it's another month.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: What are my OKRs?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: What are my KPIs?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what what's my mission?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: What's my vision?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and and I'm gonna align all of our resources with my mission and vision.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying any of that is bad.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's not bad.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so easy to be good in an old way, to be good in the way that an old Oldsmobile, you know, it's not a bad car, but that's your grandfather's car.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's not the car that to of today.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, there's so much to pick apart there, Dan, because uh I loved I loved the very specific choice of words.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: You had that formative ears, because that's the point, right?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: It is these these are behaviors that are being formed.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: And if and if you are not paying attention, you will do what a human being naturally will do, which is this worked before, so I'm gonna try it again.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: This worked before, so I'm gonna try it again.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: And you're doing it even without without thinking about it.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And if it starts to not work, well, I'm just gonna try it harder.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just yeah, I'm just gonna drive deeper in that same groove.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: And you're actually sort of tying into another mistake that um that leaders so often do, which is closely tied to this, but is not exactly the same.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: So it's the idea that something gets you to a set of behaviors gets you to a certain point and has led to you being promoted and has led to you, you know, getting to where you're at.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so even if your conscious is saying something different, your subconscious is saying, Well, I did that and it got me here.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll do more of that and it will get me there.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And very, very often that is that is not the case.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, like the idea of like um leaning in and working harder and taking on more of the responsibility yourself, that is a ceiling, right?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: And once you've hit that, once you've hit that ceiling, you can't get any more out of yourself.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: Your skills have to be tuned to getting more out of other people.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the skills you use to get more out of yourself are not necessarily the skills that you use to get more out of other people.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, this is why a lot of people struggle when they're, you know, when you just take the most competent individual contributor and and and in quotes turn them into uh into a leader.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: So and there was another thing that you said as well, I want to I want to pick up on, which is you're talking about all of these, all of these changes, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mentioned the who, the what, the when, the where, the why, etc.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: But it's against a backdrop.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that backdrop itself is is very different.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know about you, but when I've had discussions with leaders about this stuff, um the moment that you start to put concrete examples behind all of the things that have changed, they know all of these things have changed, but they've never actually really stopped and thought about it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so a term, a phrase that often comes up in discussions that I'm having or or keynotes that I've done or something like that is this phrase invisible revolution, because it is there are very, very highly visible revolutions that happened.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then there are invisible, uh invisible versions of this.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and for for folks that are listening, here's a I think a fairly good mental model that was shared with me once.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'd love to claim it as my own, but it's not.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um I want imagine that you were working and living in the 1840s, and you fell asleep.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, let's say the to to so we can get to where we are today.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um let's say you you were working and living in the 1820s, and you fell asleep for a hundred years, and you woke up in the 1920s.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what are you gonna see in the 1920s?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna see the you're gonna see cars, you're gonna see aeroplanes, you're gonna see uh radio, you're gonna see cinema, uh, depending on when in the 1920s, you're gonna see potentially sound cinema, even the early emergence of television, you're gonna see all of these all of these radical, fundamental changes that would be incomprehensible to somebody who was in the 1820s to the 1920s.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: But then, interestingly, if you go to sleep in the 1920s and you wake up today, what you're really seeing is like there is massive change that's actually happened between the 1920s and and the 2020s, but it's less, it's actually less visible, right?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: The TVs have of the uh have got bigger, right?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Or the screens have got bigger, and they're in our own home now, right?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: The cars look different, the planes look different, right?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: And they've all improved.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: But we've got all of these different sort of incremental improvements that are happening associated with this.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And what's changing, interestingly, is just a sheer um lack of visibility to all of the change that is going on around us.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: And we see this even in the workplace as well.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: So you and I are, I think, of a similar age.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so it probably means that when we first started work, there was a time that we remember when, just about remember when PCs were not on people's desks and then they turned up on people's desks.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: I remember my first for sure.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a physical instantiation of a of a change.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: But all of this change is largely invisible, but just as profound.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: But it makes it much harder for us as individuals and as leaders to be able to truly internalize the magnitude of the change and then behave differently, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if you didn't actually experience Windows 95, um it's it's hard to verbalize to someone today how how much of a sweep you know there is, how how how different technology personal computers are uh today versus uh about that time.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I got my first Toshiba laptop in a an office supply store, but it was a you know it was a grayscale screen.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh it was great, it was great, it was a great productivity booster, but nothing compared to today.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: But in fact, um it's not as obvious.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: You're I I think you're you're you're right.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's not as in your face in terms of the dramatic shifts and changes that have occurred.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: We could talk about that, just that one question all day, but I've got another one for you, Dan.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so my question for you is.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let me comment about that before you ask me a question.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: So along with all of these these subtle changes, uh, you know, I hate to use the analogy of the frog in the in the pan of water where you slowly turn up the heat, but I do think over the last particularly 50 years, the heat has slowly turned up because what technology does is it it makes us more productive, yeah, but it makes everyone else more productive.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so then in the in the in the uh race to keep up, oh, if someone else is able to send out you know 20 emails a day, I may not think of it this way, but I've got to send out more emails.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've got to have more client calls, I've got to be more available, I've got to do more, I've got to do more, I've got to do more.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And over time, we wonder why are people just so agitated?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this why is it not as fun anymore?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because, for the most part, all of the productivity boosts have benefited the work life.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: There was never a time where an employer said, hey, this new PC is gonna increase your productivity by 80%.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna let you keep 20% of that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let you know, give me, give me 80% of it, but but you can have some extra time off just for yourself, whatever, whatever you want to do.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: So all of these productivity boostings have gone to the favor of the the business.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's the nature of capitalism.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: So of course, but we reach a point now where even with AI, all of these AI productivity boosts.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I don't hear any employers saying, hey, you're gonna be able to do be three times as productive.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's give you back maybe five hours a week that you can have for yourself.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's I still want my 40, 50, 60 hours a week.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I just want you to get more done during that 40, 50, 60 hours.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so it is driving the agitation that you feel, that many people feel in the workplace where I'm sorry, but I'm I'm tap dancing as fast as I can.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing as much as I can, no matter how many tools you give me, I can only think so much for that within that period of time.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I know it's a little bit of a rant.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't mean to go on a rant.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: But it's great because it's actually a great segue into my next question for you, um, which is really centered around how professionals should be preparing for AI's impact on their careers.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: You've already talked about the the way in which um this is AI is entering the experience of work.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so put yourself in the sh in the shoe of a uh of a professional.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they've been using generative AI for a while, they're starting to see it in uh infuse various other aspects of what they do.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um and hopefully by now they've gone beyond just thinking about how do I engineer a prompt and towards how do I use AI in a way that's benefiting me today and is going to benefit me tomorrow.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are your thoughts on that?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I I have three thoughts, or I maybe I'm I'm uh I'm of three minds.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: The first is with previous technologies, the tendency has been for uh mid-level and senior leaders to do kind of a make themselves like lightly aware of the technology, but not feel like they have to dive deep to understand it.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think with AI, whatever level you are in in business, I think you have to dive deep.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: You you have to get your hands dirty, so to speak, and learn.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I and I would encourage the CEO of a business or a frontline worker, um practice with Chat GPT, practice with Claude, practice with perplexity.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Most of these have free versions, and I would say, you know, get all the free versions you can, and then pick one or two to have a uh to pay the paid version because you do get an up an upgrade in terms of capabilities with the paid versions.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I just think that we can't, you're not gonna really understand the the technology unless you immerse yourself in it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then secondly, though, be thoughtful about the immersion.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um AI right now cannot replace your brain.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: AI cannot replace your insights.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: AI right now cannot, there's so much that it cannot do.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, some of the mistakes we're seeing being made is with people get excited about all the things that AI can do, and they think that I can just turn my brain over.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't have to think through that um that difficult message.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'll I'll give you one real-world example.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Last night, uh, this is late at night, I had a very disappointed client uh where we clearly, when we set up a particular project that we were working on, there was some miscommunication, and the client wasn't receiving what they expected to receive.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: They were very agitated.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I looked at all of the paperwork uh that the the team that I'm leading had developed the statement of work and everything, and and I I could not discern exactly where the mistake, where the miscommunication occurred.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I received from someone on my team, they had taken the various emails from the client, they had taken our internal emails and basically uploaded everything because they wanted to respond.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we needed to get a response out late last night.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what AI produced was perfectly reasonable, perfectly bland, perfectly vanilla, and it didn't feel inhuman, but it didn't feel human.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and luckily, the person that built this or created this through through uh Claude, actually, sent it to me, wanted my review.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I know what they were hoping for was just, I was gonna say, yeah, that that's great, because you you address all the critical issues, you address the root causes in a non-blaming way, like there's no nobody blamed.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's again, it was it was perfectly fine, but not fine if you understood this client and you understood their sensitivities and you understood what was making them hot.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I I replied, and the person asked me to edit the AI output, and I said, in this case, let me do this.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna set it aside, and I'm just I've got a narrative in my mind.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: If I were having a conversation with this person, here's the flow of my thought process, and I know it's a little long, but I but I went through and I I created a truly human-generated response that that did go on for about five paragraphs, but it was a very detailed situation.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I made sure that I was addressing the hot buttons of this person, and this was an issue that was critical enough where it deserved.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying every email like this deserves the human touch, but this deserved the actual human response.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: So backing up, having that insight to say this is this AI generated message is correct and wrong.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the right fit for this moment.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to have to develop that sensitivity, develop that awareness of when it's used appropriately and when it's actually creating value.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Had we sent the AI version of that message to the client, the client would feel the way you feel when you're in an automated system and you press some numbers, and the system gives you the information that you needed, but you don't really feel satisfied.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's going to be a learned skill for many of us.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then my third thinking is, and I have to tell you a story to give you my third thinking.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: I live in a rural area.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: We decided about a year and a half ago we wanted to move, quote, back to the country.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: We we both, my wife and I, we grew up in the country, then we moved to the big city, built our careers in big cities, and then decided we are at a place where we could work anywhere where there was high-speed internet.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we moved back.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: We um the word we were using was uh farm-ish.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted a farm-ish life, not a life with any actual farm responsibilities.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't want any animals that leave big poops anywhere.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: We we just, but we wanted that vibe.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so it took us a while, we found the right place, so so so we lived there.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: And what came along with the 10 acres was uh the responsibility of um twice a year uh spraying um uh uh a farm animal-friendly herbicide on the 10 acres, because what we do once a year is we have the 10 acres um hayed.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they they come through, they cut it, they turn it into hay.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a particular herbicide that will keep the weeds down, uh, but also be okay for animals to ingest.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a long buildup to when uh when my when it came time for me to apply the herbicide, the herbicide for farms doesn't really come with instructions.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: It it comes with some vague instructions in terms of um how to apply it, but uh it's being used in so many different ways.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had to calculate by hand, all right, how what's like the sprayer that I have, what's the gallons per minute of the sprayer, what's the what's the width of the spray?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: So so gallons per minute is going to be sprayed across a five-foot range, but then there's also the variable of speed.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: So then I had to think through, okay, how quickly does this thing move?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: How wide?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: What's the gallons per minute?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then that determines the concentration of the herbicide that you put into the sprayer along with the accompanying water that goes in the sprayer.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I spent about an hour thinking this through my first year, doing all the handwork to think it through.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a little exhausting, but also I was kind of proud.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, I I I figured this all out through my my ciphering.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so then I went ahead and sprayed.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: The following year, though, I had become more friendly with Chat GPT.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the following year, I uh actually went to ChatGPT on my phone and I said, Hey, I need to do this.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh tell me what what information do you need for me to determine the level of concentration?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: And in three seconds, it produced what took me an hour to do by hand.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I got the right concentration.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I I did the same thing.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember walking away feeling vaguely, I don't know what the right word is, vaguely flat, vaguely empty, vaguely like like I just had a snack full of white sugar.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, it was exciting to see, oh, I got the right the same answer so quickly, because I I had thrown away my paperwork from the previous year, but it wasn't as satisfying.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder to some degree, the work that I put my brain through to do all of that work, that's good for me.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's good to go through that work.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so if ChatGPT starts to take away too much of the hard work, how shallow do we become over time?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know the answer, but I know it's something to think about.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, on that topic specifically, um, we'll put a link in the show notes uh to the uh to the MIT study that was done that shows um brain function of people that are using GPT to help them versus uh using say traditional search engines versus doing everything uh unworking by hand and and some of the slightly disturbing suggestions that come from that as to what happens to us when when we use ChatGPT in the way that people tend to use Chat GPT.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that gets me actually to sort of my points about this.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that if you're a professional who's been using GPT for a while, and or Claude, or you know, as they say, other generative AI solutions are available.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um if you're using any of these generative AI solutions, just take a moment and pause and reflect about how you're using it today versus how you were using it when you first started out.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, what for many people would be more than a couple of years ago now.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: You'll probably notice that you use it quite uh you use it quite differently.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um but then stop and think a little bit about how you're using it, period.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: Are you using it predominantly to do more stuff?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Or are you using it predominantly to make the stuff you do accomplish better?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Are you using it as a kind of combo of those two things?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And what's interesting is, you know, you're talking about the psychological impact of this.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: When we built our we built a program called Thrive with AI.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: And when we built our Drive with AI program, it was all centered around not just like how to do prompt engineering or any of that kind of stuff.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: It was centered around like looking at populations of people that use it effectively and what they do differently to populations of people who use it ineffectively, and then bundling all that up into a program and making it available to everybody.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: And we found that by and large, like people fit into those two buckets.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: There are the people that are using it to try to accelerate everything they do, and the people who do it to try who use it strategically to help them be better at the things they do.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: We then also track those people after three months and after six months and after a year.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: And what we found really interestingly was the people that were using it as a productivity aid, they got a big sugar rush early on.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: And they were really, really happy because, like, oh, look at how much all the stuff that I can do now, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: But very rapidly, that sugar rush started to almost turn into a corresponding crash related to the last point that you were making, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Which is that really all it actually did was take people that were running at 70 miles an hour in a 30 mile an hour speed uh with a in a place with a 30 mile an hour speed limit, and now have them running at 100 miles an hour.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it was starting to lead to almost like uh I personally as a human being can't keep up with all of the things that I'm trying to accomplish using this thing because that time is not being is not being given back to me.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas the people that were using it in a more strategic way to help them take the existing work they did and make it better, those people were not just uh continuing to use it in uh but also get value and enjoyment out of it and so on.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: Now I'm really, really aware of the fact that that that does not we don't all have the luxury.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: If we're working for somebody else, if you're working for a boss who's like looking at the uh at the clock and saying, hey, I've given you Claude, you should be producing five times what you produced yesterday, right?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: You you will feel that pressure and there will be very little that you can that you can actively do about it.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: But I just make the point that using it to improve what you do is a more sustainable way for you to use it as a as a human being than using it to just simply turn up the productivity dial more and more and more and more and more.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: The other aspect that I think that uh you you did three, I think I got three too.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: So the the second aspect I would say is that um you have to start thinking about uh the impact of this in the medium term to how organizations are structured and what that will mean for your uh for you as an individual.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: So we like to say in our uh in our programming that when chat GPT joins your organization, it's like uh new people joining your organization.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And if you think about it, in most organizations historically, the vast majority of people inside an organization are individual contributors, and then there are some managers and directors and CEOs and stuff like that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, now everyone's a manager, and you're managing your Chat GPT, or you're managing Claude, or you're managing something else.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so that sort of set of skills, that sort of set of intangible skills, you now need to think about that in terms of how am I managing the resources, which are these GPT bots or agents or Claude or even the other AI that is sort of integrated with the work you do.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: How am I managing that to make sure that I'm doing my overall work more effectively?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's almost like elements of what were management skills now need to be conveyed almost in everybody.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then the last point that I would make about it is almost like a psychological point, which is um we encounter a lot of people in our work um that are like existentially afraid of um of these of these tools.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: But we also encounter a lot of people in our work that are um not afraid at all and like incredibly uh and incredibly excited at what they can do with it and how they will use it um going forward.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Having been involved in this for some time, I actually think both of those are probably wrong.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think it's appropriate to have a what I would almost call like a healthy level of fear associated with these tools.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because if we don't have a healthy level of fear associated with them, then we run the risk of them just running amok while we are not while we are not paying attention.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: So there is there are some looking forward, there are gonna be increasingly amazing things that these tools can uh that these cool tools can accomplish.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um they will be like almost every piece of technology whereby if we think they're gonna do everything within one uh one year time frame, we're probably wrong.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: And if we look forward 10 years, we'll probably underestimate what they do.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so we need to be prepared for that as best as we can be with a healthy level of fear and a and a determination to adjust and adapt how we work, as much as just learning the technology, adjust and adapt how we work, knowing full well that this is a transformative technology.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the time will come, and I don't it won't be three years, but it'll be three to five years, when um some AI agent could take recordings of you and I and uh and and and capture all of our mannerisms, all of our vocalizations, and then you could just tell the agent, hey, produce a podcast with Paul and Dan talking about uh prehistoric uh animals.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and it would produce it would produce a perfectly reasonable um um version of that.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, in fact, I think already there are some podcasts that are being automated in in that fashion.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and so then you ask yourself This is not one of them, by the way.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: We want to point out Yeah, that's that's true.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can poke myself, I can I can do things that are um uh this is not this is not automated.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: However, it's coming, and so it does beg the question well, where what's our role going forward?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um I got uh my my the publisher of my first book, Workplace Poker, reached out to me recently, and they had been approached by one of the AI companies.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was confidential, so they wouldn't reveal it to me, but they wanted to pay me a fee to license the content of Workplace Poker to train their AI system.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I thought about it for a while, and I I don't know all of the implications, and it was not insubstantial, it wasn't huge, but it was in the thousands.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was uh not insubstantial, and I I decided no, mostly because I'm just not sure that I want an AI agent essentially having all of that as part of its processing.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I just don't.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: I what I like about what I hear from you is you're thinking your way through this.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're not just reacting, you're not just excited, you're not just paranoid.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think we all should be a little excited and a little paranoid and be very thoughtful about how we are going to uh operate this going forward.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and how much, again, I don't know that I know all the right answers.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: But for example, you mentioned I'm writing another book to that's going to be published uh next year.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: I am very consciously, um, well, I should describe it this way.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: My my normal work day, I have uh a web browser up with five tabs.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Each of those five tabs has an AI uh tool on those five tabs.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's ChatBT Perplexity, uh, Claude, and then and two others.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: And there, and it's there.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: That that window is just there all day long.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm not in it all day long.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: But if if a problem occurs to me or a little situation occurs to me that I think would be appropriate to leverage something, I will so I'm a user.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: I am not a Luddite.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: I am a user of AI.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: With that said, not a word of the book that I'm writing for next year has been processed through anything related to AI because I feel right now it needs to be a reflection of whatever is uniquely human in me.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that book starts, it starts with a handwritten, like it starts handwritten.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: It is not it not even with typing.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: The thoughts begin with old school handwriting, then gets get transitioned into more refined typing before it goes through many layers of refining.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I it's important to me, and I think it's important to the work that that is a uniquely human process.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I now I want to be transparent though.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: I will say I've done some validating with AI.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: So so I there have been occasions where I've gone to AI and I've said, hey, what are the what are the top eight stressors uh that are that are impacting employees today?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I use it to validate um my thinking over here.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so it's still a tool.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think the thoughtful approach, like I said, balances paranoia with with excitement.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fascinating.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've got one question left, right, Dan?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: So some if someone asked you to predict their likelihood of career success or their likely degree of career success, um what would you look for?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like what questions would would you ask, or what kind of observations would you make?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: What would you look for to determine predictors of likely career success?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: This to me is one of the areas where uh where if you'd have asked me this question 20 years ago, I would have given you a very, very, very different answer than the than the answer that I'm gonna give you now.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I'll start with what that answer would have been.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that 20 years ago, I would have pointed to things like um ability, like specialization, like serious, like specialized knowledge, the rise of the expert, you know, all of this uh all of this kind of thing.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I would have been uh I would have been looking at, you know, did they do a STEM degree, if they did, um were they uh were there are certain elements in there that they uh that they excelled.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would be um also looking to see um if they were able to like pursue an area of interest and go deeper and deeper and deeper without getting aboard.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'd be looking at things like that.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um today I think the currency of success, if that's a term, I guess that is now.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the currency of the currency of success is um adaptability.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so, and I use that specifically, so not resilience or uh or anything kind of like related uh related terms, but adaptability, which we define as the ability to adjust as circumstances change.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: So um I got a book coming up as well, actually, Dan, and and in the opening chapter of that, um we uh I talk about the age of work that we've that we've entered into.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh at least what we believe is that that this this new age of work began in around about 2005 and is an ex and is by definition an exponential age.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's partly why we're struggling in the ways that you were outlining earlier in our podcast.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: So that means that you know whatever you're doing tomorrow will not be the same as what you're doing today.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: And for many people in many jobs today, that's exactly what it's like on a day-to-day basis.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: Tomorrow is different to today.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: My day is very different today than it was yesterday.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: My tomorrow will be very different.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I can already see it.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so the the ability to be able to do that uh tactically and then also to be able to do that strategically, I think is going to be really, really, really important.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: And what's cool about that is that that's a that idea of adaptability is sort of something that has defined the success of Homo sapiens.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's a great new documentary, uh, if folks haven't seen it, called Human, that is on uh PBS right now, and it kind of talks about um why Homo sapiens uh succeeded as the Neanderthals died out and various other um you know human species.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it's very, very clear that adaptability um was like the key differentiator that allowed us to thrive.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it is leaning on something that we are what we're actually already really good at.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um but vigorously, repeatedly working on that, I think is more important than anything else.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think here's where it's gonna get really interesting, which is that um I already know people in tech companies specifically, that if you were to present them with a with a human being that had gone to Harvard or Oxford or something like that, and gone through like a traditional route and got all the way through to the other end and graduated from a top school in a desirable field.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now it was person A, and then you had person B, who had basically got the same level of education but had scrambled around and done something in Coursera here and got something over there and dealt with various challenges in their lives and managed to build that same body of knowledge.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Every day of the week they picked that second person, even though they didn't have the uh the credentials associated with the fancy school.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because that shows adaptability and the corresponding resilience that you need in order to be able in order to be able to get it.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: That is very, very, very different to the old world.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's that's what I look for in anybody I employ.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I look for in anybody that I advise or anything like that.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: Get as adaptable as you humanly can and prove and create proof points that you are incredibly adaptable.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: And if you do those two things, you're going to be successful no matter what happens.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I I think all of that is is fantastic.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: And when you say, you know, create proof points, capture proof points, I think.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think more so than ever, everything we're going through at every stage of our career, we need to capture evidence of what we overcame, evidence of what we created, evidence of what we achieved, so that as we're going forward into our career, we can do a better job of explaining exactly that to whomever our employers are or potential employers are.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a it was an kind of an old school binder that you captured uh documents within it.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: But the concept of that was um everything that you're doing in your work today and and and last week and last year, there are there are aspects of that that you want to capture in the moment because it may be too late.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: When you walk out the door and you're thinking, well, I worked on this great project and got overwhelmed and we lost our budget, but we still managed to make this happen.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: The time to capture that is in that moment and to capture those artifacts of what you've done.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then taken to an extreme.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um I met a gentleman who had been in the prison system and uh had managed to evolve from someone who is incarcerated in the system uh and transitioning out of that into, first of all, a low-level frontline job, and then step by step by step uh progressing, uh, he was an extreme example of what you just described.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: He overcame.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: He overcame his childhood, he overcame himself, he became more and more and more, uh, but he never shied away from the lessons that the that that he learned so that when he was applying for jobs, when he was selling himself, he didn't try to pretend, he didn't try to bury it, he actually leveraged it and used it because it was a great example of overcoming to become something new, evolving to become something new.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not gonna work for everybody, it's not gonna, but it's gonna work for the right person or the right people.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and I I think yes, if I had to predict someone's career success, what I would be looking for is that, you know, some people call it grit.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: Some people it's that ability to overcome, that ability to be more than what circumstance would have created for you.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I will I will take someone who created a life in spite of circumstance any day of the week, than someone who just managed to leverage the good life that was um maybe not handed to them, but you know the phrase of uh born on third base and you thought that you had a home run.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'd rather you know have that person who stumbled out of you know uh and um and managed to create something uh through their own through their own grit.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you can identify that characteristic in somebody, um and it tends to come through, you can you can see it even when you're interviewing people in their 20s.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: You can if you're a good interviewer, you can you can draw that out from from people and get a sense of it for sure.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Dan, you know, not to diminish, you know, anybody who's potentially going through a hard time who's listening to the podcast right now.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, because when when you when you're struggling in life, that's all you're really doing, struggling, right?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: And you're not necessarily thinking about the um the next step or the next thing or anything like that.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_03: But one thing that a mentor once said to me that when I was I think in my 20s, um, that now I really understand, but I didn't understand at that time was your hardest times are your uh biggest opportunities.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: So what they not they can be or any of that, they actually they actually are, right?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um because those periods of time that you are going through, that is when you are building that resilience muscle, but it's also how you're figuring out how to adapt and how to adjust and so on.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it's giving you the learning that you need, it's giving you everything that you need you need going forward.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: So so no matter what it is, no matter how difficult it is, that thing that you are going through right now is your biggest opportunity.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you will discover that later.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's that's in the moment, but that that's the hard part because you've got to get through and then and then realize the benefit that is given you.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: But that is what is actually happening.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: When when you're in the middle of it, nobody wants to hear a comforting voice that says, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: But that is the reality.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Don't if you don't let it kill you, if you don't let it crush you, if you ask yourself, okay, given all of this, what's the next step?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like what's the step forward?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then just take that step forward.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then what's the next?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: And take that step forward.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't know what the next step is, just take a step forward.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: Pick pick a direction.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because what you'll learn is that was either right or wrong.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, was it good or bad, better or worse?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it keeps you in motion, it keeps you trying, and and and you know, and I know that in the end, it is going to be okay.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it is gonna be okay.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and just don't let whatever it is crush you and keep moving.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it'll now the degree of career success, you can have some control over that um by by figuring out how to navigate though those waters for sure.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um I I I I rec I can recount now you know some of the toughest times in my life that now I would not, I would not trade them for anything because I, you know, make I you know I referenced this situation late last night where I had a very unhappy customer.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: In the spans of life now, it was just it's just an unhappy customer.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I see her point of view, I see our point of view, and I'm much better at dealing with it because it's really not that big of a deal.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a big deal right now for to her, but it's it's not because of all of the other issues and challenges that I've managed to navigate over time.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you you you can't re you can't replace that.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's and AI can't replace that either.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: There is a certain grit that comes from those experiences.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: AI is not going to be able to replace that.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what a what a great place to leave part two, which it seems to me like it doubled as uh some handy tips on farming as well.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, there's that too.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we've got we're gonna get the farmer demographic now.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that'll that'll be good.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh thank you again, once again for uh for joining me today, Dan.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: I hope uh everybody enjoyed part two as much as they enjoy part one.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we will uh we'll see you again soon.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: This has been very cool.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Paul.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: Bye now.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Humanity Working Podcast.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you like this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us wherever you listen.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: It really helps others find us.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, we also have a great weekly newsletter which you can find at humanityworking.net.