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Mark Gottlieb on Finding & Working with a Literary Agent · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: We live in a pretty amazing time when authors have lots of options for publishing.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: The main three options are these.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: First, you can self-publish your books, which means you assume all the risk, rewards, and responsibilities.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Second, you can work with a hybrid publisher, which usually means that you pay for their help with specific services and they provide some of the functions of a traditional publisher.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the third option, and the most familiar with everyone probably, is traditional publishing.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in this scenario, you sell your book to a publisher in exchange for an advance.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: They own the book, but they also take all the risk of producing and distributing the book in addition to usually doing some marketing.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now, even though self-publishing has come a long way in the last 10 or 15 years, many authors still dream of getting a traditional publishing deal, especially one with the big five New York publishers.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if that's your goal, you will need help in pitching your book to publishers to secure the best deal.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's where a literary agent comes in.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So on today's episode, uh, I'm honored to talk with Mark Gottlieb, a New York literary agent, uh, who's here to give us the inside scoop on how to find and work with an agent.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Mark is the vice president and literary agent at Book Publishing's leading literary agency, Trident Media Group in New York City.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: He attended Emerson College and was president of its publishing club, and there he established Wild Press.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: After graduating with a degree in writing, literature, and publishing, he began his career with Penguins Vice President.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mark's first position at Trident Media Group was in foreign rights.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: He was the executive assistant to Trident Media Group's chairman and also ran the audio department.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's currently working with his own client list, helping to manage and grow author careers with unique resources available to Trident.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's ranked highly among literary agents in overall deals and other categories.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the topics I talk about with Mark today are how he became a literary agent, what an agent actually does in the publishing ecosystem, the benefits of traditional publishing, what kinds of projects he looks for, and how to stand out as an author, what the most successful authors do when pitching and working with an agent, and some common mistakes to avoid when trying to secure an agent.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've ever considered traditional publishing as a possible publishing pathway for you, then you're really going to enjoy this episode because Mark gives us the inside scoop on finding, working with, and securing an agent.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are set on doing hybrid publishing or self-publishing, you're still going to learn a ton because Mark gives us a lot of great tips on how to be successful as an author, no matter what publishing pathway you choose.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: So here's my really fun and informative conversation with Mr.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mark Gottlieb.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Mark, thanks so much for being a guest today on the show.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've really been excited to talk with you.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've kind of seen each other on the internet here and there for a while now, and we finally get to chat on the show.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, likewise, thank you.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, good to be here.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I appreciate you having me here and doing this.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, like you say, only a matter of time before I guess we met.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think you are actually, if I'm not mistaken, the first literary agent that I've ever had on my podcast.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's kind of funny because I've been doing this show for a long time.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk to a ton of authors and people in publishing, but um, you're actually the first agent.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So hey, I'm glad.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that helps yeah, that could help round things out a bit or uh you know, give a new perspective, anything totally.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, something I think that's mysterious to to authors or aspiring authors who that they want to maybe write that first book or they've done self-publishing, and maybe they're thinking of traditional publishing as a potential route, also.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the whole world of traditional publishing and and agents and all those kinds of things that can be somewhat of a mystery to people if they haven't been in that world.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe maybe a good place to start out this this conversation would be just sharing your story and how you got into the world of being an agent in the book world and and really what what drew you into that world as well, because it's not a job that a lot of people can do well.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, like it's a very specific set of skills that you bring to the mix.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering if you can share your story with us.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Not only that, I mean, it's uh also sometimes you explain to people, I'm a literary agent, and they say, What is that?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard of that before.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, certainly people outside the book world.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not talking about authors.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then you sort of say, Well, uh, it's like a talent agent, except it's specific to authors and book publishing.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, most people I would say who go into book publishing or who you go into my profession, which is another kind of aspect of book publishing, um they tend to stumble out of the humanities.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe they were an English major or something like that.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: They then go, you know, into publishing.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it had always kind of been that way for a very long time.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, although in more recent years, like a lot of uh schools have been offering undergraduate studies and graduate studies in book publishing.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I actually grew up um like in a publishing family.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my my dad uh is a chairman of the company where I work, and my mom worked in publishing for a time, and my grandparents were deeply involved in the arts.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it was sort of like always, always had that in mind.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: And when I went out for school, I thought, uh, well, I could I could go to an Ivy League school, get a comparative literature degree, but what would that teach me about, you know, book publishing?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: It would definitely teach me about you know love of reading and literature, which is a big part of it, but it's not all of it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so Emerson College in Boston offered an undergraduate study in publishing, and it looked good, and I went out for it.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And while I was at the school, I started a small press, Wild Press, which is still operational.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: They're publishing about four little books a year, and uh was a founding member and later president of its publishing club.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Then after that, I did a stint at uh Penguin Books in uh like art and production.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Then I came over here to work in Foreign Rights.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: I did audiobooks for a time at the agency, worked with the chairman of the company, and now I just represent my own clients and their books.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you've seen it all, you've heard it all, you've done it all basically in a relatively short amount of time.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: That is really cool.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what has been your favorite part of your journey so far in terms of like if you could pick one little aspect of what it is that you've done, and you could do this all day, every day.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any one thing that just really, really lights you up that you've been involved in?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, definitely.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look, I'm in the business of making people's dreams come true, is how I like to think about it, you know.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, call that vicarious, if you will, but you know, seeing an author go on to get published and get published successfully and be really happy about that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like you're at the marathon and you're, you know, you're cheering someone onward toward the finish line.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's really, I like that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I enjoy that.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's great energy around that.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I'll give you a good example.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have this client, Joe Thumborello, who is the director of the Yale Writers Workshop.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I helped him publish his debut novel.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I've gone back to the Yale Writers Workshop pretty much every summer.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and one year he invited me up to his farm.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: He he has a flower farm, he sells flowers at the um farmer's market.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so my wife and I were helping him plant, him and his wife plant flower bulbs.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So they come up in the springtime.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I said to him, Jotham, um, how do you feel about your book deal?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Are you kidding me?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: When people ask me about it, I tell them it sold for$10 million.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Jotham, why are you telling people that?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, that's not true.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Well, no, listen, he said, that's what it's worth to me.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Okay, I get it.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're happy about your book deal.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, No, no, really.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I, um, as a result of this book, I got tenure as a professor at the university.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: They they gave health and medicine, um, put my wife and kids on my my medical plan.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, he got a promotion and he's running the department or something.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So he says, that's what it was worth to me.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so yeah, when I heard that, it kind of put things in a different perspective.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's really incredible.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: It changed his life, yeah.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: For the better.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something I think sometimes those of us said, at least maybe I'll just speak for myself here, that when you're in this world on a daily basis of books and authors, and for me, it's ghostwriting and talking with helping coach authors and so forth.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you forget that this stuff is really about making dreams come true.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And these these kinds of things can really change people's lives, like on a real tangible level.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not in the way of, oh, I have a book out there, my life has changed, but I mean, like it affects your income and things like medical insurance or tenure or your family.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's actual tangible things that this does in people's lives.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's pretty cool, you know.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and a lot of stuff can spin off from that.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like a perfectly good example.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: One of our clients is Deepak Chopra.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: The first book that he uh published uh was with actually a very small press out west in California.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was this book called The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, but it helped get him on like Oprah and a bunch of other stuff.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and from that, I mean, now it's like 60, 70, some odd books later, you know, he's like a brand unto himself.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: But it all like the wellspring was that book.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: The power of a book.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: They seem kind of innocuous, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's just some paper, huh?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: And they're kind of quiet, they just sit there.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you wouldn't think that it's that it's still so powerful.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: But even with all the social media and all the kind of stuff that we have today that people have for entertainment, there's still something very, very powerful about a great book that has a great cover.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's written well, it's laid out well.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's still magic, I think.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, the thing that's really special about it too is uh, you know, a book is is basically as powerful as your imagination.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of like the words on the page, obviously there aren't images there or sound, but your mind, you know, creates the imagery, creates the sound, and like as powerful as your imagination is, a book could be.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: So this it's almost like the sky's the limit, you know.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, can we dive into some specifics about uh about your work?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think this would be really interesting to people.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: At least I'm really interested in this, and of course I know you are because you do this every day.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think my first question would be what exactly does a literary agent do?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what kind of role do you play in the publishing ecosystem?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: We know that publishers, you know, they bring the editors into it and graphic design and they do some marketing and there's all kinds of things.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: But what what's what is the linchpin role that agents play in this process for traditional publishing?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So a literary agent, like I mentioned early, or just briefly before, was um, you know, it's like a talent agent for authors, no different than what a talent agent out west in Hollywood, California would do for an actor or movie director, only we do for authors and books.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um we represent authors to the book publisher.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a big part of that is finding the talent, eliciting, helping them elicit the talent.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So shaping the manuscript, crafting a pitch, a list of editors along a submission.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if it's a nonfiction book, it's a matter of helping the author put together a nonfiction book proposal, a couple of sample chapters, and making the author like presentable to the book publisher basically.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then when we go out on submission, we field offers from publishers, negotiate to the best of terms, and present the client with an offer from a publisher or multiple offers, as the case may be sometimes.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh if the author accepts such an offer, then the publisher they draft an agreement and we review and make sure everything's okay in the agreement.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: We get some great things in our uh contracts with publishers because of the clout of our agency, you know, the fact that our business goes to the bottom line of most every uh book publishing company.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think authors benefit from the in the same way in our submissions and our negotiations with publishers.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then from there, you know, we help shepherd the author through the publishing process just to make sure they're having a good and a happy and a successful publishing over uh experience.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's almost like overseeing it in a managerial sense to help the author through all that.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we might ask the publisher for like their marketing and publicity plans to help comment and improve upon those plans.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then we also help authors adapt their books in different ways.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: So to make sure there's an audiobook out there or foreign translations of the book into other languages, or maybe help get a book made into a movie or a TV show, which we've done a lot of too.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when you have competing offers from publishers, let's say you have a uh a hot book proposal that a lot of publishers want, what determines other than I understand the the amount that they're willing to to buy it for?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is probably a huge factor in it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: But let's say if you have three big publishers who are all interested in the same the same project, and the amounts are exactly the same, and I know that's probably not usually the case, but okay, what determines which which publisher that you would go with?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be their track record with that kind of a book or your relationship with them?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: What actually determines which one that you would pick?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can make recommendations, but at the end of the day, it will be the author's decision.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the offer is always going to be in the yeah, the pilots.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: See, I'm really like a co-pilot to the author.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I and I think it would be wrong if an agent made that determination themselves and only presented the client with one offer.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: I always like to be like fully transparent with the client, show them the offers on the table.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: And to kind of use your example, um, in fact, there have been instances where I've shown offers where one offer was for more money, the other offer was for less money.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I said to the client, if you decide, there's no shame in taking an offer for less money for what you might feel ends up being a better publication, because this particular publisher is really strong in the kind of book you're publishing.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whereas I I can't speak for other people, but my inclinations tell me maybe other people would, you know, it's tempting to just want to show the client whichever offers for the most money, right?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: So if you did have, like in a perfect world, like you said, uh all three offers the same amount of money, you might uh the client in helping them make an informed decision, you might say, Well, is it a matter of personality for you with how you uh kind of get along with these different editors?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you like um kind of the specialty of this publisher, the kinds of books they're strong at in publishing, or do you feel like one or the other publishers could market or promote your book better?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe they spoke to some of their vision for how they plan to publish your book.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: So those are like some of the factors just beyond the like economics of it.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: That really makes a lot of sense.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm just kind of curious.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So an agent typically you get 15% of what the author gets, correct?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a that's pretty well an industry standard.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 15% is the industry standard.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh every most every agency you were to look at keeps the same exact commission structure.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, no smoke and mirrors there.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh we list it on our website, so it's there for the whole world to see.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And whenever, so when I did the um, I did a book last year called The Faith of Elvis with um Thomas Nelson, which is owned by Harper Collins.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know the way, and I'm and I know this is kind of a standard way to do it where they pay, they pay the author typically like a third when they sign, then a third when the book is delivered, then a third on publication.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how you as an agent get paid also?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you get paid on that same schedule?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is there kind of a difference as to how you're compensated as an agent?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so yeah, our work is commission based.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so basically, I would say the closest thing to our industry would be like a real estate agent, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: A real estate agent to sell your apartment.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: They're not going to say, pay me or I won't sell your apartment.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: They'll say after they sell your apartment, they they take a commission for doing that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, um, our commission is on you know advances and royalties received by the author.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't take a commission until payments come in.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, like when the signing payment arrives, or when the delivery payment arrives, or when the publication payment arrives.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and publishers will they all sometimes have different payouts.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's like things you said, or sometimes it's half on signing, half on delivery of the manuscript, although some publishers have moved away from that just to kind of help their own cash flow.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 18:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then the do the again, I'm sorry about that.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: These are just like super granular questions.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've just always been curious about so like when the author gets paid, then do they pay the agent, or does the publisher split it up?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Part of that goes to the agent, then part of that goes to the author?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, that's uh whatever the client wants.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Unless the client tells us otherwise, uh, what we typically have the publisher do is they send the lump sum payment to the agency.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: The agency takes its 15% commission and pays on the remaining 85% of monies to the client.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: But if the client says, No, I want to receive my payment sooner and I want it to come from the publisher, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we call it like a buyer pays payee scenario.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, the publisher pays the client they're 85% directly, and the agency it's 15% directly.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the only benefit I would say to having the publisher pay the agency is we can better track the payment, you know.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So like if it's late or if the royalty statement is wrong, or you know, things like that, we can keep a better eye on it for clients.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it doesn't make a difference to us.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: We do what the client wants because we have a fiduci responsibility to them.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can imagine if if all the time the payments went directly to the author and you kind of have to wait, wait to get your part from the author.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't want to have to go chasing down the phone.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, no, no, yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: We don't want instances like that.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about a nightmare.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, the publisher will only typically do one of those two scenarios.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to have to chase a client for your commission.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time as a client, you don't want to be burdened with that either.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure it makes it easier for for tax purposes also.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it simplifies things, probably.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's interesting.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: That that's been one of the mysteries I have literally wondered about that for years.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just haven't known who to ask.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for clearing that up for me.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Out of curiosity.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's interesting is a lot of a lot of authors who maybe want to get into traditional publishing, that it is easier for them to view agents and publishers as in kind of this like adversarial role, where like, oh, I've been submitted to all these agents or publishers, and like nobody will say yes.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's there's kind of this emotional response to the whole system, like, nobody will let me in, and so forth.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's interesting because like you are really a creative partner and an advocate for the author.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that would be a fair way to describe that, wouldn't it?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: In a perfect world, I would want every author to get published and succeed.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would be like, I mentioned Oprah before, I would be like Oprah.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, and my audience members, I'd say, and you get a book deal, and you get a book deal, and you get a book.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Look at your scene.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course I want books to sell.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't want to stand in people's ways way like a bouncer at a nightclub.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't have uh any kind of ego associated with this.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to see books sell, but I do have a good feel, I think, editorially and for what the marketplace um looks for.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I can also understand an author who is could be frustrated where maybe they've been submitting their book for a long time, they've experienced a lot of rejection, and they feel like it's the industry just pushing back against them.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And instead, they should look look inward more and that's good.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like kind of get a feel for the marketplace.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think in attending conferences and workshops, that sometimes helps with that, or just seeing what what publishers are publishing to make sure their work is melding with it, you know?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: That has to be a difficult role because as an agent, you're part of that is business, obviously, part of that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is creative, but then part of that is probably also being a therapist at times to the client.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so you really have this range of skills that you have to bring to the table, which is this very unique mix of things that you have to do as an agent.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine sometimes sometimes those roles get conflicted a little bit, and you you're like, okay, right now am I being the therapist or the business person or the creative side?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: And oh my gosh.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: The what yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the wild, I mean, one of the wildest instances of that I probably had was I have this client, Christopher Brown, who writes uh literary science fiction.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: He's been up for the Philip K.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Dick Award, and he's a great writer.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: He's got a nonfiction book coming out on ecology uh pretty soon.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but he had this debut novel called Tropic of Kansas, and we had like a quote from William Gibson who conceived of that of the term cyberspace.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was one of the original um cyberpunk authors along with Philip K.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Dick.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, the there was a lot of excitement around the book.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: We had two offers.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we took one of the offers, and this famous book editor who had bought the book, David Hartwell, who was Philip K.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Dick's editor, he um was uh much older, going through a divorce.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And literally a day after he bought the book, he was carrying a bookcase down some stairs, and he fell down the stairs, and he had a like a severe brain hemorrhage.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: I guess he didn't have a like a he had a do not resuscitate order, and so his soon-to-be ex-wife took him off life support.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the author was devastated because the editor actually was also a friend of his and um, or he knew him very well, and he had just bought his debut novel, and sudden, and then we got a a note from the publisher saying, you know, we let this editor buy the book because he believed in it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: We thought he'd prove us wrong, even though we disagreed, you know, we've been proven wrong in the past by him.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: But now that there's no champion for this book in the house, it's better you take this book back.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so for the author's first book, he was it's just as just devastating.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I thought, you know, we could could hold the gun to the publisher's head and say, oh, you have to publish this book.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we have it in writing, even though we didn't have a contract yet, but it wouldn't make for the best outcome.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they would kind of try and take credit for the book's success.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: So what I was able to do was quietly but respectfully go back to one of the other publishers who had made an offer, explain all the circumstances, and luckily I was able to get them to reinstate their offer, and then the book was able to live happily ever after there.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: They did two more books in the series, and now this nonfiction book will be this author's fourth book.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: But if I hadn't, you know, uh, you know, kind of been like a therapist, I guess, through all that, we might not have ended up at that point.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was pretty wild.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great reminder that this is a at the end of the day, I know people look at publishing as sort of this big impersonal entity, and it's easy to view it that way.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, this is just people who are doing jobs and trying to get books out into the world, and everybody wants the book to be successful.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that there's nobody who in publishing who wants to say, well, we want to sign this book, but we really hope it doesn't do well.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no one wants to stand in anyone's way, they want to see books succeed.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, I think in our best nature, in in you know, our best qualities, yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly for me, I mean, if my work is commission-based, I want every book possible to sell.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, I mean, yeah, that was such a wild instance, though, that story.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the editor's obituary was in the front page of the New York Times, and it was so strange.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, both these science fiction editors who bought the book or offered on the book, both their first names were David.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: What are the odds of all this?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: The universe, it's so strange.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment, but first, a big thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
• 26:15
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• 26:34
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• 26:38
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• 26:45
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• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's dryvellum.com slash daily.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: And now back to the conversation.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So let me get to a question that probably a lot of people have about traditional publishing, which is why should they do traditional publishing in the first place?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: With so much being made about hybrid publishing and indie publishing.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I've worked in all those different areas and I'm pretty familiar with all different kinds of publishing.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: But what does traditional publishing offer that indie or hybrid publishing doesn't?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look, I will probably sound, or people will think I'm biased just because of the nature of my job, but I'll just speak honestly about both.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: They both have pros and cons.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they're they're for differ really for different purposes.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think part of the great stuff that people love about self-publishing is a lot of creative control.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Authors, I think, in that space, fixate on having complete control over their royalties, but oftentimes it amounts to having a lot of nothing rather than a little bit of something, because there's one main revenue tributary source in self-publishing, which is ebooks.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, they're not self-publishing authors aren't really in the print world or the audiobook world in as big a or meaningful a way as traditional publishing.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have distributions, the marketing, the they're certainly not getting into the film TV space, you know.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're not seeing a lot of self-published books make their way into film and TV.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: And same in the translation markets.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think traditional publishing takes some of the risk away.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: It uh guarantees a book advance, a set of royalties.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: The publisher can put forth different um cover designs and jacket copy and things like that, and the author can say yes or no to it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: So some of those creative controls are still in place.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think it it um mitigates some of the risk.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you're a self-publishing author and you're in kind of one ecosystem, which is Amazon, if Amazon changes something on you like it did recently, then now Amazon put uh you probably saw this in the news, there's a limit to how many books uh authors can self-publish because Amazon is trying to curtail uh authors who are using AI for writing.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: So if you were a very, very prolific author, guess what?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Amazon just placed a limitation on you.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: You can't publish as often as you were.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's um there are different kinds of controls in place, but I think authors in traditional publishing, it's kind of ultimately the place to be.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Most authors who experience big success in self-publishing inevitably end up, you know, migrating their work into traditional publishing.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think self-publishing, beyond where it was in its earliest days, in its earliest days, it was like the dot-com bubble.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: You kind of had to be there early to get the benefit of it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now there's just a lot of material, and it's kind of this race to the bottom in terms of how authors price those books.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got to be a marketing guru on top of it all to really stand out.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it can be tough.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend who a couple years ago they had a book published through a traditional publisher for obvious reasons.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to name their name, but they were kind of complaining privately to me.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the book was was very good, and publisher did a great job.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: They they were complaining after the initial period where uh the publisher had hired a PR agency to get them on interviews and I don't know how much they spent, but it was I'm sure it was in the tens of thousands of dollars for that.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: They did a great job with that.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: But then once that like initial six-month period was over, then the author was kind of privately complaining that um they were like, Oh, the publisher really isn't doing enough to market the book and they're not putting more resources behind it and so forth.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, as somebody who's in this ecosystem, uh, what what would you say the role of the author is to continue to take the reins of their marketing past that initial launch phrase?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And here's really the reason why I'm asking is because I thought it was a little unfair of my friend to be critical of the publisher because they're a publisher.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're not really their thing is publishing.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean, they do some book marketing also, but their thing is not really book marketing, that's really more on the author over the long tail, isn't it?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is a very tricky thing because, you know, um, how do I put this?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, there's really no magic bullet to it in terms of how a book is marketed and promoted and then goes on to succeed.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've seen books that have gotten a New York Times book review and then it didn't equate with book sales.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: So no one really knows what the answer is.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's just sort of this water cooler effect, right?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um in terms of marketing and promoting a book, historically publishers have not been the best at that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of the marketing and publicity plans they put forth tend to be kind of cookie cutter at best.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the marketing and publicity people or departments within the publishing houses are typically they're spread very thin.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just had a marketing publicity call with an editor and author, and their PR and marketing person.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're extremely young.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm a young guy, but I mean they're like out of fresh out of college.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because the publishers don't want to pay the money to hire the the right kind of talented people.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: They rather hire young or promote young people into those roles.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the burden ends up falling unfairly on the author's shoulder.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, I can't speak for other agencies, I can only speak for what we do.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: But with clients, you know, I try to do a number of things.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: I try to on first hold the publisher to task, you know, like ask the publisher for their marketing and publicity plans, comment and improve upon them their marketing and publicity plans, all in the spirit of success, of course.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, we have someone in-house who does marketing and publicity who we get interfacing with the author and the publisher to see what the publisher can be doing, see what we can be doing, see what the client can be doing.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we make specific recommendations to the client.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like we might do a social media audit, like look at all their accounts and make recommendations for improvements, things like that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so yeah, we take a much more holistic approach rather than just kind of trying to point the finger or place blame in one place.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: We all we try to see, like, hey, the ship will go much faster if there are more oars, right?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we we try and do that.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but at the same time, again, you cannot predict any of this.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was this book called uh I I'm gonna censor myself, but it's you are a bad sleep.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of books like that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you are a bad A or whatever.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it has a very bright, loud cover, and I think it gets a lot of attention because the publisher, I think, um it in publishing that book, they didn't expect a whole lot initially.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: It had a actually a very quiet pub publication out the gates, but somehow just maybe it was like the loud and obnoxious title or the very bright book cover, but it kind of took off all on its own.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then you also see oppositely books like uh maybe a good example is that musician recently, her book was was bought by a publisher, but uh didn't quite live up to what they paid for it.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm forgetting her name.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's like a whole New York Times article about it, it'll come back to me.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's I'm I'm totally blanking out her name, what her name is too.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that crazy?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know who you're talking about though, because she had a big memoir come out, and everybody was surprised that it tanked.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Billie Eilish, is that who it was?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Billie Eilish, exactly.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: The publisher put a ton of money behind that book.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure they put a lot of marketing publicity effort behind the book, and it just did not take off in a big way.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think there were a couple of factors to it, if you were to ask me.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: One, Billie Eilish is what, in her her 20s, or you know, she hasn't lived a lot of life.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: So she doesn't have it's not like Elton John looking back on a long life ribbed with a lot of stories to tell.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that was one of the first factors.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And two, I think a lot of the people who tend to read those books are a lot older.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like when when Elton John's fan base was ready to read his memoir, they had aged with him.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the reading population also in general also skews a lot older.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think Billy Eilish did the right thing, but at the wrong time, if that makes sense.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Totally makes sense.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, how much you can have a really successful career, but in your 20s, I mean, again, you don't have that much life that you can really share about what, a decade, maybe?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I'm surprised that Taylor Swift hasn't come out with some kind of project like that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's been a little busy.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: But even, you know, in her early 30s, I would think, man, if you would wait 10 years and and do a memoir or something like that, could be a killer, or 20 years or something.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sometimes it's a matter of living more life, or sometimes, you know, it could be any number of factors.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that one of the kind of neatest things I found is um, I'm not actually particularly a fan of uh the movie they made, although maybe the book is is better like it usually is the case.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: But so Dan Brown, who wrote the Da Vinci Code, um, when that book published and it was such a big success, every publisher was going back into their backlist of previously published titles to find out oh, do we have any books about uh conspiracies having to do with like treasure hunting and the church and all that?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they couldn't find anything, they didn't have anything.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what they found in their research was there were a lot of people who were reading nonfiction books having to do with um conspiracies having to do with the Catholic Church and Mary Magdalene.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was a big underserved audience uh uh who was hungry for a fiction book on this kind of subject.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so here, unwittingly, uh along comes Dan Brown, writes a Da Vinci Code, and it was 100% the water cooler effect.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: I can guarantee that because prior to that book, Dan Brown was like kind of what we call like a mid-list author in the publishing industry, where he was writing um like uh books that weren't huge bestsellers, but they did well enough that the publisher wanted to continue publishing with him.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And each time his editor, Jason Kaufman, moved to a different publishing house, Dan Brown just kind of went with him.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, they published the Da Vinci Code and no one saw this kind of thing coming.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like a title wave out of nowhere.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh actually a pastor at the time, and I remember it was a huge, huge deal in the church world.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, here's all this controversy about stuff.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I come from kind of an evangelical church background, but it was still a massive deal, so much so that some of the Christian publishers were putting out books that were contradicting all the stuff that Dan Brown was saying.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you know, you you know, a book is really hit a nerve whenever publishers are are putting out books that are like the anti-so-and-so.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's also worth, you know, reminding everyone that it's fiction.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, like can we all just take it down a notch?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this it's just a it's just a work of fiction, people.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: But hey, I mean, it was such a big book that it got people uh, you know, it got people excited.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I remember seeing TV commercials for it and everything.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, a couple more questions here.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I could talk with you forever, Mark.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have so many great stories and such a well of knowledge about this.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: So for authors who are who are interested in pursuing a traditional publishing path, what are some things that they could do to stand out when they are trying to find an agent to represent them?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: How can they stand out when when sending you a pitch?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, obviously it always comes down to great storytelling, great writing.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's a given.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the showcasing that in a query letter, which is basically like a cover letter for your book, you know, it introduces us to the author and their writing.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great opportunity to showcase your writing and making for a well-written letter.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's slightly different between being an author of fiction or nonfiction.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you're an author of fiction, it's just at the end of the day um quality storytelling and the author becoming a household name by extension of that.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: The bells and whistles to it all are having the writing credentials, a background in writing.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they went and got an MFA degree or they uh went to prestigious workshops or conferences, things like that.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they have some short story publications under their belt, stuff like that.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, nonfiction authors is very much so platform-driven, which can be a tricky thing.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on the one hand, as a nonfiction author, you don't have to put all your cards on the table like a fiction author does in writing a full manuscript.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: As a nonfiction author, you can sell your work based on two sample chapters and a book proposal.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: But the tricky part is publishers want to see a nonfiction author who, again, has a big platform behind them.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like could be could be a million followers, could be a huge newsletter subscriber base, lots of website visitors, maybe they do speaking events or speaking engagements.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Probably like you you've done, you know, in your work as a pastor, you were probably speaking to hundreds or thousands of people at different points in time.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that helps uh convince publishers to get on board with a nonfiction author because they see a built-in audience there.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: So barring barring something weird about a potential author or some kind of factor in them or their life that would make them um that would make a publisher not want to publish them, is there a certain magic number in terms of platform or followers that generally an agent or publisher looks for in being kind of a a baseline?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, assuming their their book is great, they have a great concept, all that, is there kind of a baseline that you generally look for as sort of a shortcut?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if people really want to simplify the equation, maybe sometimes it's a matter of having hundreds of thousands or or maybe at least a million followers.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: But look, I've sold books where there was not that kind of following, but we were able to conceive of a platform, show publishers that the author has a lot of support from different organizations and individuals.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: And by extension, uh that's sort of the key phrase, by extension, um, the author would uh gain a lot of support uh and endorsements and things like that from the organizations and individuals.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we showcased what their platforms looked like and basically told publishers this is the this is the village around this book, or this is the tide that'll lift all the boats.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: That totally makes sense.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: That that really totally makes sense.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like you take a lot of different things into account whenever you're deciding whether to take on an author.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then I guess the the the flip side of that or the continuation of that is uh uh when you are are taking this uh this book proposal and pitching it to publishers, uh, what do your most successful authors uh do that makes it easier for you to not just sign the project, but then to pitch it to publishers?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I guess what I'm asking is how can once you're signed, how can you as an author make your job easier and make it more likely that a publisher is going to be interested in a book?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think part of that is enhancing the online presence.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think it's good to at least have some kind of presence.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've had authors approach me where they had absolutely no website or social media pages, nothing.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like they didn't exist on the internet.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to ask, are you a real person?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are you do you exist?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: And they built a website and you know, so having those things I think are good.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, some it's sort sort of good to have gone out and gotten involved in the literary community in some way.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they've gone to conferences or workshops or s or things like that.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: And having endorsements, blurbs from you know, best selling authors or major award winning authors, like a quote from them on can sometimes help too.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of things they could do.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: to to make your job easier because you're ultimately going for the same goal, which is getting a book deal that's that everybody's happy with money wise, that the publisher's excited to take on.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, everybody wants success in this, I'm sure.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, definitely.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: I view it all very, very holistically, however, people can pitch in, you know, I try to encourage uh clients to do.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, anything I can ever do to be of help in the process, I I try and try and do, you know.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: So how how does this typically work with with authors who want to get into traditional publishing?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do you encourage them to send you pitches or connect with you or what's what's the best next step for for our podcast listeners who might be interested in connecting with you or traditional publishing?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: What what what would you like people to do?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well if people are interested in querying our agency about their book, you know, they want to share a query letter or a manuscript, you know, uh they would visit our website Trident Media Group.com and on the website there's like a submissions contact us page.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: They would just click there.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: They could select my name or they could read about any of the agents at the agency and see you know who might be of interest and then decide to to query anyone at the agency they like that would be probably the a good next step, you know.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, if they do visit our website tridentmediagroup.com there's good information on the agency's website like our company history and the awards our clients and the agency is one and so they can see a lot of the books and authors we've worked with that kind of thing.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can imagine you get a lot of queries from people that you have to sift through and it's a good problem to have I love that problem.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: If that that problem could get worse all the time and I'd still be happy yeah it's it's much better to have a lot of interest than no queries and no interest for sure.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right exactly Mark this has been an absolute blast I really appreciate you taking time to be on the show.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey likewise thank you I also want to encourage people to connect with with you on LinkedIn and follow what you're doing because you're really active there.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I love seeing the updates like when you're posting about hey we've got this client who we just signed a deal with such and such publisher that's really exciting and I'm looking at those projects going man that sounds like a great book and knowing that you had a hand in that is really cool.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah I'm definitely active on LinkedIn Twitter Facebook Instagram I have a blog it's just like literaryagentmarkgottlieb.com it's kind of a mouthful but um yeah so I like to just kind of share that stuff because hey if it helps people or sparks their interest or creativity whatever I mean then I've uh the world's gotten a little bit better that way and so yeah that's why I do that stuff.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: What is your what's your blog again?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll make a note of that and put it in the show yeah it's simply uh or so I should not simply but it's literaryagentmarkgottlieb.com.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'll make sure that's in the show notes.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh thanks so this is kind of a dumb question but is it a thing for literary agents to have books out there?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like is that a is that a transition that you see happen?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen some agents who've published some stuff like that.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: I I've been working on one myself but nothing interesting just kind of like a how to get published kind of book.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um you know I think uh definitely there's some agents who've live like very colorful kind of storied lives who should they should think about writing their memoir you know um so sometimes you see that that stuff um yeah but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more of them also who write fiction too I I I know of at least one or two.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well I want to encourage you to get your own book out there.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to read that if you need a beta reader thanks that I would love to would be happy to help um I love I've loved learning from you today and I think the things that you're sharing are really really helpful.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is your everyday world but for people who aren't in the publishing world a lot of this is probably new information.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you being so open and and uh transparent about your journey and about how people can be successful in the world of traditional publishing.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you again it's been a blast.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise thanks so much well I hope you took some notes during that conversation.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly did Mark is really sharp and not only that he's just a really really cool guy.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: So many thanks to Mark for taking the time to be a guest on today's episode.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can connect with Mark at literaryagentmarkgottlieb.com and you can find out more about the tried into media group at triedinto mediagroup.com and of course there will be links to both of those uh in the show notes as always thanks for listening uh and I'll see you next time