Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / Division showdown: Cardinals vs. Cubs

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Division showdown: Cardinals vs. Cubs · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:04
Speaker 1: Welcome into Northside Territory. Foul Territory Networks Cubs podcast. We
0:09
Speaker 1: have a cross over episode with Katie Wu today Cardinals Territory.
0:14
Speaker 1: Cubs are in Saint Louis for four. Katie joins myself
0:19
Speaker 1: and Patrick. We are all beat writers over at the Athletic.
0:23
Speaker 1: Katie covers the Cardinals, Patrick and I the Cubs. I
0:27
Speaker 1: am out here in brutal Saint Louis, brutal because it
0:31
Speaker 1: is ninety five degrees, humid and disgusting. In that game
0:37
Speaker 1: yesterday for Cubs fans, not like pretty disgusting for Cardinals fans,
0:41
Speaker 1: I think they loved every moment of it, from the
0:45
Speaker 1: fourth inning on. Katie, I want to start this off like,
0:50
Speaker 1: just get it going, because I don't think Cubs fans.
0:53
Speaker 1: I certainly wasn't expecting this from the Cardinals. I think
0:56
Speaker 1: most of us weren't, just the way they talked about
0:59
Speaker 1: things in the offseason. What is beyond what we saw
1:03
Speaker 1: last night? What are we looking at with the Cardinals?
1:07
Speaker 1: What's going right? Why is this team, you know, pushing
1:11
Speaker 1: the Cubs for first place?
1:12
Speaker 2: Yeah? I also didn't expect this from this Cardinals squad.
1:16
Speaker 2: Much like almost everyone else, I know, the expectations were
1:19
Speaker 2: relatively low, but that makes sense when you think about
1:22
Speaker 2: the organization publicly saying that they were going to take
1:25
Speaker 2: a step back this year. So really, I think it's
1:27
Speaker 2: a credit to the assortment of young players that have
1:30
Speaker 2: stepped up, very similar to the Cubs. What's really sparked
1:34
Speaker 2: the Cardinals in this really remarkably surprising run, as I said,
1:38
Speaker 2: seven games over five hundred, has been the fact that
1:42
Speaker 2: they don't do anything like particularly top notch. They don't
1:45
Speaker 2: have one of the best offenses in the league, they
1:47
Speaker 2: don't have one of the best rotations. They do have
1:49
Speaker 2: a very strong defense, but most Cardinals teams usually do.
1:52
Speaker 2: It's that they just do everything pretty well, so they
1:57
Speaker 2: don't have a glaring weakness, and I think if you're
2:00
Speaker 2: going to give them a strength, it's been that they
2:02
Speaker 2: are a very resilient group. Maybe that's because the expectations
2:06
Speaker 2: were low coming into the year, a lot of young
2:08
Speaker 2: players with a lot to prove, But the Cardinals have
2:10
Speaker 2: nineteen comeback wins so far this season. You really can't
2:13
Speaker 2: count them out of any ballgame, and they've built their
2:15
Speaker 2: identity around their resiliency and it's led to an overall,
2:20
Speaker 2: I think I've taken confidence with this club. When you
2:23
Speaker 2: have a lot of young guys learning to play every
2:25
Speaker 2: day for the first time and getting a chance to
2:28
Speaker 2: contribute to a major league team over and over again,
2:31
Speaker 2: day by day, and they keep winning, that confidence grows
2:33
Speaker 2: and it makes this team more and more dangerous. I
2:35
Speaker 2: had zero expectations that this Cardinals team would be contending
2:39
Speaker 2: in the NL Central and shows how much I know
2:41
Speaker 2: because here they are.
2:43
Speaker 3: Okay. I saw the attendance on Monday night was roughly
2:47
Speaker 3: twenty seven thousand at Bush Stadium. I'm curious how the
2:52
Speaker 3: Cardinals have kind of sold this transition year to the
2:56
Speaker 3: public and whether Cardinals fans are like buying in at
3:00
Speaker 3: this point.
3:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the official tendancy yesterday was around twenty
3:04
Speaker 2: seven thousand, and Yeah, it is disgusting outside and really
3:08
Speaker 2: hot here, But for Cardinals Cubs, you guys know this.
3:13
Speaker 2: I mean, it's usually a packed house regardless of stadium.
3:16
Speaker 2: So it was a little shocking to me with even
3:18
Speaker 2: with the weather, to see Bush Stadium half empty. But
3:20
Speaker 2: that goes to show that the messaging about this transition
3:23
Speaker 2: season was not sold well. The Cardinals had an end
3:26
Speaker 2: of season press conference last October where they announced that
3:28
Speaker 2: long time present baseball opst on the Zeilaf would be
3:31
Speaker 2: stepping down. I'm Bloom taking over in twenty twenty six,
3:34
Speaker 2: and they sold this year as kind of a pathway
3:37
Speaker 2: where we're going to focus on the youth and rebuilding
3:39
Speaker 2: the minor league system, but we're also not fully going
3:41
Speaker 2: to tear or rebuild, and to their credit, they didn't
3:44
Speaker 2: have to. As you can see, there was still plenty
3:45
Speaker 2: of talent that could make this team competitive. But I
3:48
Speaker 2: think Cardinals fans were just kind of all they heard was, Hey,
3:51
Speaker 2: we're not spending money on the roster, and they didn't.
3:53
Speaker 2: They signed one free agent for two million dollars in
3:56
Speaker 2: film Ayton in March, and that's very uncanny for the
3:59
Speaker 2: Cardinals not going out there and proclaiming them to be
4:01
Speaker 2: big spenders. Obviously they're not. But this fan base, much
4:05
Speaker 2: like Kubbs, have a very high expectation of what their
4:08
Speaker 2: team should look like, and this last offseason did not
4:11
Speaker 2: match their expectations. So they've kind of made themselves known
4:14
Speaker 2: that they aren't going to be come into the ballpark
4:16
Speaker 2: like usual. And this is something that Cardinals ownership planned
4:19
Speaker 2: for as well, they planned for a decline in ticket sales,
4:22
Speaker 2: they planned for a drop in gate revenue. They're seeing it.
4:25
Speaker 2: But hopefully, you know, once the weather calms down, if
4:29
Speaker 2: it ever does, and the Cardinals continue to win, you'll
4:31
Speaker 2: see Bushtadium get a little more full. But I think
4:34
Speaker 2: it's pretty clear that the Cardinals fans. We talk about
4:36
Speaker 2: people that weren't expecting anything from this team, Cardinals fans
4:39
Speaker 2: were right there with them.
4:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was surprised to see all those empty seats
4:44
Speaker 1: last night. I guess you're right. I mean, I started
4:47
Speaker 1: this off with the weather. It is rough out there,
4:49
Speaker 1: But the Cardinals are a good team. There's multiple players
4:54
Speaker 1: on that roster that are surprising or you already knew
4:58
Speaker 1: were good. Brendan Donovan's been kicking the Cubs ass for years.
5:01
Speaker 1: It feels like so. I don't know why exactly that's happening,
5:08
Speaker 1: why it continues to happen. It makes sense to start off,
5:10
Speaker 1: but they're good enough now that you'd think they'd be
5:14
Speaker 1: showing up. Do you expect them to be active at
5:17
Speaker 1: the deadline? Is this a buying team?
5:21
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's part of the reason why I
5:23
Speaker 2: thought this series against the Cubs who've, like as you
5:25
Speaker 2: guys know, they pretty much just start to fit start
5:29
Speaker 2: from the end of March to right now, it's been
5:31
Speaker 2: their division. I think this would tell a lot about
5:33
Speaker 2: how the series ends and where the Cardinals are going forward.
5:36
Speaker 2: I don't think that they're going to make a decision
5:37
Speaker 2: whether they buy, sell or hold until the All Star break,
5:40
Speaker 2: and it depends that they're in contention in the division
5:44
Speaker 2: or just in the nationalgue wild card picture. They don't
5:46
Speaker 2: want to deviate from their plan of focusing on the future.
5:49
Speaker 2: If you're John Mozelac, you're also aware of that whatever
5:52
Speaker 2: moves you make come July, you only have control over
5:55
Speaker 2: the roster until October. And the whole reason the Cardinals
5:58
Speaker 2: did this little transition plan, if you will bite this
6:00
Speaker 2: almost never happening in baseball, was to give him blue
6:03
Speaker 2: McLean slate. So if you're the Cardinals and you're going
6:06
Speaker 2: to go out and you're going to buy it the deadline,
6:08
Speaker 2: you're only probably buying to the degree of rentals. And
6:13
Speaker 2: same if they sell, you're probably only offloading your expiring contracts.
6:17
Speaker 2: Because the big decisions are going to happen over the
6:20
Speaker 2: off season when him takes over so they're in a
6:22
Speaker 2: very weird place. It's not like the Cubs where I
6:25
Speaker 2: feel like, and you guys would know more. I feel
6:27
Speaker 2: like if they're going to be buyers, because they're pretty
6:31
Speaker 2: much owning the division for Saint Louis. It's not just
6:33
Speaker 2: a matter of what do they look like right now,
6:35
Speaker 2: it's how does this shape up for the future, a
6:37
Speaker 2: new regime taking over, and if they feel like they
6:40
Speaker 2: can keep up in the central or the wild card
6:42
Speaker 2: the National League, guys is crazy.
6:46
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and actually talk about what
6:49
Speaker 1: the Cubs are going to be doing and how aggressive
6:52
Speaker 1: they're going to be, if it's going to be soon or.
6:54
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6:56
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7:03
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7:15
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7:57
Speaker 1: So Katie saw last night why the Hubs are going
8:00
Speaker 1: to be active at the trade deadline. I think it's
8:03
Speaker 1: you know, Ben Brown's a good guy. He's got nasty stuff.
8:06
Speaker 1: He's got two pitches and the second, the second or
8:10
Speaker 1: the third time through the order, good teams are gonna
8:12
Speaker 1: hit him. And they did. They he was he threw
8:15
Speaker 1: his change up. I think once.
8:23
Speaker 2: Okayo.
8:25
Speaker 1: They hammered some pitches right down right down the middle.
8:29
Speaker 1: Uh and and gave He gave up eight runs, couldn't
8:32
Speaker 1: finish the sixth inning. It's clear they need a starting pitcher.
8:36
Speaker 1: I don't know how soon it's gonna happen. All I
8:39
Speaker 1: know is it will unless there's some sort of collapse
8:42
Speaker 1: here where the Cubs lose fifteen sixteen games in a
8:44
Speaker 1: row or something crazy like that. Even then that still
8:46
Speaker 1: be in the wildcard race and Jed Hoyer knows his
8:49
Speaker 1: job is on the line. They're getting pitching. This is
8:52
Speaker 1: you know, the Cardinals may be like hedging things. There's
8:56
Speaker 1: no there's no doubt what the Cubs are doing at
8:59
Speaker 1: this dep line. They're making calls right now to start
9:02
Speaker 1: to try and get things in motion.
9:06
Speaker 2: Well that makes sense, right because any contending team coming
9:09
Speaker 2: into the deadline, they covet two things, starting pitching and
9:12
Speaker 2: relief pitching. That's textbook what any team looking to make
9:16
Speaker 2: a push will go for. The Cardinals are in a
9:18
Speaker 2: really unique situation. I've said this so many times now
9:21
Speaker 2: that I'm afraid I'm going to speak it into existence,
9:23
Speaker 2: But I'm going to say it one more time. They're
9:25
Speaker 2: one of the rare teams in baseball that have not
9:27
Speaker 2: faced a significant pitching injury. You guys, there's a spider
9:30
Speaker 2: on my computer. I'm trying to be cool. Right now.
9:39
Speaker 3: We walk out this Are you in a Bush Stadium press box?
9:43
Speaker 3: I feel like there's just.
9:46
Speaker 2: The press box? Will the ac be back? Who knows?
9:50
Speaker 2: Such writers were on the home side, which I really like.
9:52
Speaker 2: I thought it was fun anyway, I.
9:55
Speaker 1: Know, we all got to bond.
9:56
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is so scary. So the Cardinals
9:59
Speaker 2: are one of the very few teams in baseball that
10:01
Speaker 2: have not had a significant starting pitching injury or bullpen injury.
10:05
Speaker 2: It's why Michael McGreevy, whose spots spot starts today against
10:08
Speaker 2: the Cubs, is inarguably one of their best options remains
10:12
Speaker 2: in Triple A. Between the Cardinals utilizing their schedule so
10:19
Speaker 2: almost every pitcher can take us six regular or six
10:22
Speaker 2: days of rotation. They've done a really nice job of
10:25
Speaker 2: keeping their arms healthy, and they're one of the teams
10:29
Speaker 2: that could possibly be trading away pitching when you look
10:31
Speaker 2: at someone like and Eric Fetti, who is in the
10:34
Speaker 2: final year of his seven point five million dollar contract,
10:37
Speaker 2: has the lowest era in the rotation. Do I think
10:40
Speaker 2: the Cardinals and Cubs whatever make a trade. I don't
10:42
Speaker 2: think so at all, just the nature of the rivalry.
10:44
Speaker 2: But it's interesting to see the Cardinals could in a
10:46
Speaker 2: way sell some of the pieces that have been instrumental
10:50
Speaker 2: to helping them and gain something in return by swapping
10:54
Speaker 2: someone out of the rotation and implementing McGreevy. You don't
10:57
Speaker 2: necessarily lose anyone there, but you are able to kind
11:01
Speaker 2: of maybe generate some leverage because everyone knows at the
11:04
Speaker 2: trade deadline it's a seller's market. So I'm not sure,
11:07
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think the Cardinals and Cubs are
11:09
Speaker 2: matching up for a trade by any means, but it's
11:11
Speaker 2: interesting to watch. I'm curious for you guys, when you're
11:14
Speaker 2: looking at the Cubs as we sit here at the
11:16
Speaker 2: end of June, is this where you expected them to be?
11:19
Speaker 2: I mean, fourteen games over five hundred, pretty much in
11:21
Speaker 2: first place all season long in the division.
11:25
Speaker 3: I did not see this coming. I thought, you know,
11:29
Speaker 3: our editors forced us to do those predictions over at
11:32
Speaker 3: the Athletic and I think I put like they'd win
11:35
Speaker 3: slightly more than eighty three games and still kind of
11:39
Speaker 3: squeak by and win the division. They've definitely taken this
11:43
Speaker 3: to a level that I did not anticipate. I thought
11:45
Speaker 3: there'd be a lot more more tension, a lot more friction,
11:50
Speaker 3: a lot more uncertainty. But I mean, at this point,
11:53
Speaker 3: you see it now like they're not playing as well,
11:56
Speaker 3: and like that happens as you guys, know every year,
11:59
Speaker 3: but they built this cushion in that they've needed because
12:04
Speaker 3: I've been surprised across the board, Like I thought this
12:06
Speaker 3: division was going to be really bad, and you got
12:10
Speaker 3: four decent teams kind of going after it.
12:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're hitting a ceiling that I didn't think it
12:18
Speaker 1: would be this good. I liked the offense. I was
12:20
Speaker 1: saying that all off season. Once they made the Kyle
12:23
Speaker 1: Tucker move, I thought they had a chance to have
12:25
Speaker 1: a great offense. It's at times it's been much better
12:29
Speaker 1: than I expected. I did not think Pete Armstrong would
12:32
Speaker 1: get to this point. Now, I think we all agreed,
12:35
Speaker 1: like he had this ceiling and he could show flashes
12:38
Speaker 1: that he would be an MVP candidate this season. It
12:41
Speaker 1: just happened so quickly, and he's so dynamic all around
12:47
Speaker 1: with everything he does, and it kind of changes everything
12:49
Speaker 1: about the Cubs offense. There are players that I liked
12:52
Speaker 1: that are living up to their pretension, like Michael Bush.
12:55
Speaker 1: Kyle Tucker is a star. The offense looks really good.
12:59
Speaker 1: I just did not think they'd beat this far over
13:02
Speaker 1: five hundred at this point, these rough patches. I think
13:06
Speaker 1: it's important for fans in general to remember the Cubs
13:10
Speaker 1: went to Philadelphia and the Phillies had lost nine of ten,
13:15
Speaker 1: I believe, and now they're red hot again. The Mets
13:18
Speaker 1: are in the middle of a major scuffle. I believe.
13:21
Speaker 1: The Yankees had two weeks of just really bad play,
13:25
Speaker 1: bad results. This is it's fair to have concerns. This
13:30
Speaker 1: team is not perfect. We just talked about what they need.
13:33
Speaker 1: They have to go get starting pitching. It was a
13:36
Speaker 1: brutal weekend in Chicago because of that weather and they
13:40
Speaker 1: and I think that that kind of set them back
13:42
Speaker 1: with their bullpen, just guys getting beat up. You want
13:45
Speaker 1: depth constantly with that. I don't think their bullpen's bad.
13:48
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty damn good. But this team, I
13:52
Speaker 1: wouldn't freak out just yet. You want you know, games
13:55
Speaker 1: like Monday Night are going to set fans off, though.
13:58
Speaker 1: It's just it's hard not to.
14:00
Speaker 2: I've experienced in the same in Cardinals Land, and it's
14:04
Speaker 2: been a lot of a rollercoaster here in Saint Louis.
14:07
Speaker 2: They had not a great April. I think they spent
14:08
Speaker 2: most of April four or five games under five hundred.
14:11
Speaker 2: Then they went nineteen to eight in May, the best
14:12
Speaker 2: record in the majors, and they followed it up by
14:15
Speaker 2: two weeks of just mediocre baseball, and then here they
14:18
Speaker 2: are winners of their last six and seven. So what
14:20
Speaker 2: I'm getting here is that in a one hundred and
14:22
Speaker 2: sixty two game season, there are going to be highs
14:25
Speaker 2: and lows. It doesn't mean that the Cubs are a
14:27
Speaker 2: bad team right now because they're in a little bit
14:29
Speaker 2: of a lull. Obviously they're not. You look at their
14:31
Speaker 2: overall record. Same with Saint Louis. There was a lot
14:33
Speaker 2: of talk about, oh, here they are regressing back to
14:35
Speaker 2: who they were they were supposed to be because they
14:38
Speaker 2: had a bad ten days. Well, a bad ten days
14:40
Speaker 2: is going to happen to every single team in baseball.
14:42
Speaker 2: If you're a team like the Rockies, it's going to
14:44
Speaker 2: be like a bad one hundred days, but for most teams,
14:47
Speaker 2: for most teams, it's going to be you're going to
14:49
Speaker 2: go through stretches like this. And with scheduling for the
14:52
Speaker 2: Cardinals in June they had just two off days, it
14:54
Speaker 2: was kind of predicted that this would be it. It
14:56
Speaker 2: doesn't surprise me that the Cubs are hitting a little
14:58
Speaker 2: bit of a lull because they haven't yet this season.
15:01
Speaker 2: They've also played, you know, I think what everyone in
15:04
Speaker 2: the NL West by now maybe twice, and the Cardinals
15:07
Speaker 2: have not done that. In the NL West is a
15:09
Speaker 2: huge test for them. So what I'm saying, Cardinals Cubs
15:13
Speaker 2: fans is just because your team is going through a
15:15
Speaker 2: rough week does not mean that they're going to be bad.
15:17
Speaker 2: I'm an NL Central I don't want to say hater.
15:20
Speaker 2: I'm definitely a Reds hater because I know they're good.
15:23
Speaker 2: I know they're much better than what I see. But
15:26
Speaker 2: every time I see them, they lose and I'm just like,
15:29
Speaker 2: this team cannot be what I think it is. And
15:31
Speaker 2: then I watch them on TV and I'm like, that
15:33
Speaker 2: is the Reds team that was sold to me. I've
15:36
Speaker 2: always been kind of bummed out about the division over
15:38
Speaker 2: the last three or four years because it's so five
15:42
Speaker 2: hundred and it's like, oh, here we go again, another
15:44
Speaker 2: five hundred NL Central Division. Yay, so excited. And it's actually,
15:50
Speaker 2: I think one of the most competitive division in the
15:52
Speaker 2: National League because you have four teams that are in it,
15:55
Speaker 2: and the Cubs are the favorite in my opinion, But
15:58
Speaker 2: I don't think you can count the Brewers as what
16:00
Speaker 2: we know they seem to make a run somehow magically
16:02
Speaker 2: every year. I think this Cardinals team is on the rise,
16:05
Speaker 2: and I think they are legit to be contenders, and
16:07
Speaker 2: I think the Reds are right there with them. So finally,
16:10
Speaker 2: at long last, this division gives us something exciting. But
16:13
Speaker 2: I did not have I think I had the Cubs
16:15
Speaker 2: and the Brewers battling it out for first place. I
16:18
Speaker 2: didn't have the Cubs this far ahead of the game.
16:20
Speaker 2: But I'm super excited to see how this rivalry, how
16:24
Speaker 2: the Cardinals and Cubs base out over the rest of
16:26
Speaker 2: the season, especially because the last series of the season
16:30
Speaker 2: three games at Wrigley, so that'll be fun. I can't wait.
16:36
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Patrick, I just want to get one question
16:39
Speaker 3: before our next break. Like Katie, I had flashbacks reading
16:42
Speaker 3: your coverage from Milwaukee, Wilson Contreras popping off, like because
16:47
Speaker 3: we've all been there, and the Cubs don't really have
16:50
Speaker 3: that player anymore. Like those are certain teams, certain players
16:53
Speaker 3: where like you just have to wait them out after
16:55
Speaker 3: the game because you never know what they're going to say.
16:58
Speaker 3: And Wilson, obviously livers. Wilson also in our experience, is
17:03
Speaker 3: someone who kind of sees things sort of black and white,
17:06
Speaker 3: and the Cardinals are existing in this gray area. How
17:10
Speaker 3: has he sort of accepted his role as well as
17:15
Speaker 3: the organization's direction at this point.
17:18
Speaker 2: Well, he continues to be the most vocal of the players,
17:21
Speaker 2: which makes for postgame interviews that are anything but boring.
17:26
Speaker 2: I know, my favorite thing about post game lately is
17:28
Speaker 2: that he's had a little bit more of a free
17:30
Speaker 2: spirit tense on this, he said. And for live shots
17:34
Speaker 2: for the postgame show, you can't air half things, he says,
17:36
Speaker 2: so they have to reshoot it and it's hilarious. Wilson,
17:40
Speaker 2: can you like say that again? But like Queen a
17:42
Speaker 2: couple little so that's happened the last couple of weeks.
17:45
Speaker 2: I'm sure you guys can pick the incident in Milwaukee,
17:49
Speaker 2: but I actually really want to end Wilson contraras for
17:52
Speaker 2: how he's handled this year. The Cardinals approach him over
17:54
Speaker 2: the off season and say, hey, we know we signed
17:57
Speaker 2: you for eighty seven million dollars to be our starting catcher,
17:59
Speaker 2: but what about in our starting first baseman instead? And
18:02
Speaker 2: he took that position easily, no reluctancy to switch, and
18:06
Speaker 2: has actually been a really good first basement, and you
18:09
Speaker 2: guys had seen him play first base in the past,
18:11
Speaker 2: but it wasn't his starting position. I think when you
18:13
Speaker 2: look at out above average across the league, Wilson Contrera's
18:16
Speaker 2: is third in baseball. He's done a really nice job
18:18
Speaker 2: there and he's I don't know why you guys are
18:21
Speaker 2: so surprised. But one thing that I think stands out
18:28
Speaker 2: even more than his play at first base and his
18:30
Speaker 2: bad of course contrast, is I think since he's no
18:33
Speaker 2: longer behind the plate, he has a lot more energy
18:35
Speaker 2: and a lot more health to focus offensively. He's on
18:38
Speaker 2: a heater right now, but his ability to look at
18:41
Speaker 2: the clubhouse, both him and Nolan Arnatto have done a
18:43
Speaker 2: really nice job at this and let these young players
18:46
Speaker 2: have the ability to be themselves and kind of learn
18:50
Speaker 2: to play the game their way. They've given this clubhouse
18:53
Speaker 2: to the young guys. They've said, hey, we're here if
18:55
Speaker 2: you need us, and we're going to set the tone
18:56
Speaker 2: by how we play on the field. But in terms
18:58
Speaker 2: of establishing a new coldlture, this is your future. So
19:02
Speaker 2: we're gonna let the younger players come in and set
19:04
Speaker 2: the tone. We're gonna give you the ability and the
19:06
Speaker 2: flexibility to be yourself, and when you are the Cardinals,
19:10
Speaker 2: there is kind of that cardinal ay of how you
19:14
Speaker 2: should act and how you should present yourself as a professional.
19:16
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, but
19:18
Speaker 2: I'm saying, if you're going to transition into a new era,
19:21
Speaker 2: why not let these players who are going to be
19:23
Speaker 2: around for the bulk of it set that tone of
19:25
Speaker 2: what it should look like. And I think it's allowed
19:28
Speaker 2: those young players to really relax and come into their
19:30
Speaker 2: own That's not easy to do as a veteran, especially
19:32
Speaker 2: when you were Both Nolan and Wilson came to Saint
19:35
Speaker 2: Louis with the expectations that they would be contending every year.
19:38
Speaker 2: They took a step back. They're still here. One chose
19:41
Speaker 2: to be. One is still here because of circumstance. But
19:44
Speaker 2: they both said, we need to let these young players
19:47
Speaker 2: and the up and coming guys for the next core
19:48
Speaker 2: of the club set the tone for this clubhouse, and
19:51
Speaker 2: we'll support them in that way.
19:53
Speaker 1: I have a question about those young guys. Let's take
19:55
Speaker 1: a quick break and we'll get to it.
19:57
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20:58
Speaker 1: So Katie saw peek Row Armstrong. He had had a
21:02
Speaker 1: good game last night. He stole a home run. It
21:04
Speaker 1: looked like he stole a home run at least and
21:07
Speaker 1: had a few hits. He is the future for the Cubs.
21:10
Speaker 1: It's clear that you can build around this guy. It
21:12
Speaker 1: seems like he's you know, he's an MVP candidate, he's
21:16
Speaker 1: a star. I don't know if the Cardinals have that guy,
21:20
Speaker 1: am I is that guy on the roster currently? Is
21:24
Speaker 1: that guy coming up through the system? And this is
21:26
Speaker 1: just different? I like, I, what how do they develop catchers?
21:30
Speaker 1: All the time? They lose you out of here, Malina,
21:32
Speaker 1: You think, okay, they'll they'll never be good at catcher. Again,
21:35
Speaker 1: it's impossible to replicate this. They seem to have catcher
21:38
Speaker 1: after catcher. I'm impressed by that, but I also I'm
21:42
Speaker 1: also curious about do they have a potential superstar.
21:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny looking at the Cardinals pipeline. A lot
21:48
Speaker 2: of issues that they're addressing with their farm system and
21:50
Speaker 2: minor league development. That's part of the reason why home
21:52
Speaker 2: Bloom was brought here in the first place. But one
21:55
Speaker 2: thing that they seem to have like millions of is
21:57
Speaker 2: catching death and dhs uh and they have a see
22:00
Speaker 2: to trade any of them, and then they'll get to
22:02
Speaker 2: the Big Way club and they're like, well, we don't
22:04
Speaker 2: have any flexibility. You'll figure so maybe one of their
22:10
Speaker 2: their rising stars is still in the pipeline. The Cardinals
22:13
Speaker 2: don't have a clear superstar like pie chor Armstrong. They
22:16
Speaker 2: have a bunch of players that I think are going
22:19
Speaker 2: to be stars, but don't have like the superstar ceiling
22:23
Speaker 2: of pe Kormstrong. Mason Wynn is their short step of
22:26
Speaker 2: the future. Brendan Donovan should be an All Star this year.
22:28
Speaker 2: You can build a club around those two. Lars newbar All,
22:33
Speaker 2: the big question for him this year was can he
22:34
Speaker 2: stay healthy. He's done a great job in doing that.
22:36
Speaker 2: He's been mostly their everyday left fielder and that's someone
22:39
Speaker 2: that they're looking to build around as well. So they
22:41
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have someone bitter Scott. I should mention him
22:44
Speaker 2: just if you're looking for another exciting defensive centerfielder. He's
22:48
Speaker 2: right there with Pca. So they have pieces to build around,
22:51
Speaker 2: but they don't have the like star and maybe they
22:54
Speaker 2: don't need it. Maybe that's coming in the system. They
22:57
Speaker 2: have a bunch of pitching prospects coming up to co
22:59
Speaker 2: Robe Quinn, Matt Views and the Cardinals. If there was,
23:02
Speaker 2: you know, one thing they were super behind was developing pitching.
23:05
Speaker 2: So this could be a turning point for them. Maybe
23:08
Speaker 2: they go out and they trade for their next star.
23:10
Speaker 2: I'm so interested to see how much things change because
23:14
Speaker 2: Mo has been here and I have a lot of
23:15
Speaker 2: respect for what he's done in his career, but he's
23:17
Speaker 2: been here for like two decades and it's been the
23:20
Speaker 2: same voice in the same pun intended Mo motive uh
23:24
Speaker 2: for a decade and a half. Right, So you're going
23:27
Speaker 2: to have a brand new front office come in because
23:29
Speaker 2: not only as Mo leaving, most people under him are
23:33
Speaker 2: on expiring contracts and there's no really blueprint or no
23:38
Speaker 2: one really knows if they're going to stay or if
23:39
Speaker 2: they're going to go somewhere else, if Time's going to
23:41
Speaker 2: keep them. So I'm not sure if they have their
23:44
Speaker 2: next star in the system. They have a bunch of
23:47
Speaker 2: ab above league average players that can allow them to
23:50
Speaker 2: maybe jumpstart this runway and force them back into being competitive,
23:54
Speaker 2: maybe earlier than they would have decided. But the first
23:58
Speaker 2: thing that I'm going to look at if i'm him Bloom,
23:59
Speaker 2: is am I going to go outside the organization to
24:01
Speaker 2: find a star? Do they need a star? Because I'm
24:04
Speaker 2: not sure that they have one currently on their major
24:06
Speaker 2: league roster.
24:09
Speaker 3: Kid, you'd laid all this out in your excellent coverage
24:13
Speaker 3: in the Athletic like even going back to last year,
24:15
Speaker 3: like you had great feel and instincts for this larger
24:20
Speaker 3: story around the Cardinals. I mean two part question here,
24:23
Speaker 3: these two kind of central figures, Like do you think
24:26
Speaker 3: Moe will try on another team somewhere And do you
24:30
Speaker 3: have a sense of what a Heim Bloom kind of
24:34
Speaker 3: post red Sox experience, how he would kind of go
24:39
Speaker 3: about reshaping the Cardinals. What are your kind of early
24:42
Speaker 3: impressions on those two guys.
24:43
Speaker 2: At this point, I don't know if Moe would take
24:46
Speaker 2: on another team. I mean, I can't picture him leaving baseball,
24:52
Speaker 2: so I know he might want to take a step
24:54
Speaker 2: back after dedicating over half his life to the Saint
24:56
Speaker 2: Louis Cardinals. But I can't see him, and this is
24:59
Speaker 2: just my expect elation in my gut feel, I can't
25:01
Speaker 2: see him leaving completely. I could see him. He's so smart.
25:04
Speaker 2: I can see him maybe joining the business side of
25:06
Speaker 2: the organization and kind of seeing where the Cardinals go
25:09
Speaker 2: from there, because it has been a recession year and
25:12
Speaker 2: he does really understand that side of the game super well.
25:15
Speaker 2: Maybe he you know, do the Rockies need help? Yeah,
25:19
Speaker 2: he's from so maybe, but I think the more likely
25:24
Speaker 2: path is he takes a year off and then because
25:27
Speaker 2: we're all suckers for paying, we usually come right back
25:29
Speaker 2: to this sport and maybe he helps side And I
25:34
Speaker 2: don't know what to expect from hein Bloom. I think
25:37
Speaker 2: this organization needs a set of fresh eyes. I mean,
25:40
Speaker 2: it can get when you have success for so long
25:44
Speaker 2: as the Cardinals did, it can become almost just like
25:47
Speaker 2: you know your daily routine. And for him to come
25:49
Speaker 2: in and have such a modern view of the game.
25:52
Speaker 2: We all know what he's done in player development and
25:54
Speaker 2: how he's kind of modernized that aspect. We're familiar with
25:56
Speaker 2: his work in Tampa, we know what happened in Boston.
26:00
Speaker 2: I'm one I'm curious to see just how much extension
26:03
Speaker 2: ownership is going to give him from a payroll point.
26:05
Speaker 2: I do think it's a little ironic where unfairly he's
26:08
Speaker 2: known for trading Mookie Betts in Boston as one of
26:11
Speaker 2: his big moves is one of his first moves in
26:14
Speaker 2: Saint Louis going to be trading Nolan Arnatto Like that
26:16
Speaker 2: is really not setting for all the success, but it
26:20
Speaker 2: remains a possibility. So uh, you know, It's it's interesting
26:23
Speaker 2: because I think we're both in a little bit of
26:25
Speaker 2: front office holding patterns. What's the feel around Jed Hoyer,
26:28
Speaker 2: a name that Cardinals fans know very well.
26:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, it all depends on this year. What's happening right now?
26:36
Speaker 1: There was talk what there's been talk Patrick for a
26:39
Speaker 1: few weeks. People have been buzzing about does he should
26:41
Speaker 1: he get an extension or their extension Talks's not talking
26:45
Speaker 1: about that. He's not gonna He's not going to answer
26:47
Speaker 1: questions about that we've asked. I I think it's all
26:52
Speaker 1: about the playoffs and and if they if they continue
26:55
Speaker 1: on this path, he's getting an extension. I think I
26:59
Speaker 1: think he does deserves credit for kind of he had to.
27:02
Speaker 1: He took on the hard job of tearing down the
27:05
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen team. THEO left and the system was kind
27:09
Speaker 1: of barren, and Jed had to reshape a lot of
27:13
Speaker 1: different departments. Did he make all the right moves? I
27:16
Speaker 1: guess we're starting to see some progress. Obviously this season
27:20
Speaker 1: is the first time we're really seeing the moves he
27:23
Speaker 1: made bear some fruits. So I think he's going to
27:27
Speaker 1: get extended. But if there's if something bad happens here
27:30
Speaker 1: over the next couple of months that could mean his job.
27:33
Speaker 1: I mean, this season is all about it. We've been
27:36
Speaker 1: talking about it all winter, Patrick and I. It's this season,
27:40
Speaker 1: what happens. Playoffs are not dictates Jed's future. That's a
27:44
Speaker 1: tough way to go about business. But you know, one
27:46
Speaker 1: bad injury, one weird set of circumstances can dictate your future.
27:51
Speaker 1: But that's that's the reality of the situation he's put
27:53
Speaker 1: himself in. This team wasn't good enough for years and
27:57
Speaker 1: now they finally look good. But it's just that the
28:01
Speaker 1: margin of error type stuff where where you never know
28:03
Speaker 1: what can happen and how how season can go sideways.
28:07
Speaker 1: Right now it looks fine, I would I think Patrick
28:10
Speaker 1: and I would agree that that's he's back next year.
28:13
Speaker 1: But it all, like I said, something goes wrong, the
28:18
Speaker 1: discussion completely changes. I have no clue what direction they'd go,
28:22
Speaker 1: because this is not the Mets or the Dodgers, where
28:25
Speaker 1: someone like David Stearns or Andrew Freeman comes in and
28:27
Speaker 1: it's like, hey, look at what I've done on a
28:29
Speaker 1: small market budget. Now I get, you know, three hundred
28:32
Speaker 1: million to spend or whatever. That's not what the Cubs
28:35
Speaker 1: do anymore. That's not the Cubs are not of financial behemoth,
28:38
Speaker 1: not with their payroll. They just aren't. They're what are
28:41
Speaker 1: they the thirteenth in payroll this season? Come on, like,
28:45
Speaker 1: that's you know, yeah, so yeah, I think it. You know,
28:52
Speaker 1: I think that's a big question facing the team. It
28:55
Speaker 1: feels like it felt like a couple of weeks ago
28:57
Speaker 1: it was answered, and now they're they're in a little
28:59
Speaker 1: bit of a slow so people are going to start
29:01
Speaker 1: questioning everything. I would assume they pulled themselves out of
29:05
Speaker 1: it and that question is answered soon enough.
29:07
Speaker 2: A very stable industry that we work in. Awesome for
29:11
Speaker 2: you guys, because I full disclosure love Showda. I mean
29:18
Speaker 2: I sent your article about pitching against St. Louis to
29:22
Speaker 2: the Cardinals PR staff and I sent it with like
29:25
Speaker 2: and they were like, oh, I love him. I mean,
29:29
Speaker 2: it's like a borderline unhealthy obsession where one of the
29:32
Speaker 2: Japanese reporters last year came up to me and gave
29:34
Speaker 2: me a Shoda baseball card and I kept it in
29:37
Speaker 2: my ball all season. I don't know why I like
29:38
Speaker 2: him so much, but I do, so I'm super excited
29:41
Speaker 2: to see him on Thursday. How big is Shoda coming
29:44
Speaker 2: back to the rotation for this Cubs team.
29:48
Speaker 3: I mean it means everything. I mean, the their pitching
29:51
Speaker 3: has been thin for a while now. They were able
29:55
Speaker 3: to kind of compensate in different areas, but it's kind
29:59
Speaker 3: of getting exposed. Uh, not just Ben Brown, although you
30:05
Speaker 3: know he's been kind of the more obvious issue to
30:08
Speaker 3: this point. You know, it wasn't an arm injury, so
30:14
Speaker 3: the Cubs are hopeful that you can kind of slide
30:16
Speaker 3: right back in there. But yeah, our memory, kadies, I
30:19
Speaker 3: feel like you missed a bunch of its, Like he
30:21
Speaker 3: just did not come up against the Cardinals that often,
30:26
Speaker 3: or you weren't covering, you know, a particular series, and
30:28
Speaker 3: I remember you saying you had missed him. But he
30:31
Speaker 3: he does have that if factor, like you know, the
30:33
Speaker 3: starting pitchers kind of uh been or has been very
30:37
Speaker 3: much diminished over the years. But he's still one of
30:40
Speaker 3: those few guys that has kind of the name recognition,
30:43
Speaker 3: has that creativity. Uh definitely has like a flare and
30:49
Speaker 3: a style uh to his game. So you know, I
30:52
Speaker 3: think side of you know, you wrote it in the
30:55
Speaker 3: preview that you guys, did you know if you had
30:59
Speaker 3: kind of told us spring training that Justin Steele would
31:01
Speaker 3: undergo major l elbow surgery like in April, and that
31:05
Speaker 3: Shoto would miss I mean almost two months before the
31:11
Speaker 3: Star break, and that the Cubs would be in first
31:14
Speaker 3: place and rolling to a large extent. I don't think.
31:18
Speaker 3: I don't think I would have believed it.
31:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's I'm still surprised by it. Honestly, it
31:25
Speaker 1: was they were set up to collapse with those injuries,
31:29
Speaker 1: and somehow that managed not to what one thing before
31:32
Speaker 1: we go I just wanted to say, the Cardinals fans,
31:37
Speaker 1: what when you described the team, Katie, it sounds so
31:40
Speaker 1: similar to what we watched like the last the previous
31:43
Speaker 1: two years with the Cubs, where a lot of good
31:46
Speaker 1: players but just lacking that superstar talent. And I feel like, yes,
31:53
Speaker 1: you can win, you can have a good season. I
31:56
Speaker 1: think what at least what I felt like I learned
31:59
Speaker 1: in twenty three and twenty four is look this that
32:02
Speaker 1: team was good, That they were good talented players. To
32:05
Speaker 1: have that superstar in the lineup, it brings some sort
32:08
Speaker 1: of consistency to the group that keeps you from, you know,
32:12
Speaker 1: getting in those really deep slumps that the Cubs suffered
32:15
Speaker 1: last year in May and June. If I remember correctly,
32:18
Speaker 1: and the Cardinals look like I like a lot of
32:22
Speaker 1: these players when they come up to bad it was
32:24
Speaker 1: like non easy there's no there's nobody that looks like
32:26
Speaker 1: there's where the pitcher can breathe real easily. And this
32:29
Speaker 1: is you know, this isn't easy out. It doesn't seem
32:31
Speaker 1: like there's multiple of those guys in this lineup. Uh,
32:35
Speaker 1: but they do lack that superstar. I do think to
32:37
Speaker 1: get to back to, you know, fearing the Cardinals, they
32:41
Speaker 1: do need that. But I also think Cubs fans probably
32:45
Speaker 1: need to be ready to possibly fear the Cardinals again,
32:48
Speaker 1: not not to in the not it seemed like it
32:50
Speaker 1: was going to be longer, but because they're just like
32:53
Speaker 1: holding steady right now, it's like, maybe this isn't as
32:55
Speaker 1: long as we thought it was going to be. I
32:57
Speaker 1: think the Cardinals could be back and pretty dangerous soon,
33:01
Speaker 1: if I mean, they're giving them a run now. So
33:04
Speaker 1: so it's not like I'm saying like way off in
33:06
Speaker 1: the future. Maybe it's now. Maybe it's right now that
33:10
Speaker 1: they're dangerous, but they could be even better and winning
33:14
Speaker 1: this Central over and over again if things go right
33:16
Speaker 1: and they find that star. That's that's just how I
33:18
Speaker 1: feel about that team. They're They're different than the Brewers
33:22
Speaker 1: the way they go out business. But these teams are
33:25
Speaker 1: pesky for Cubs fans. They drive the nuts, I know that, uh,
33:29
Speaker 1: in different ways. So so we'll see what the rest
33:32
Speaker 1: of the series have has if if it goes south
33:34
Speaker 1: for the Cubs, it's gonna be panic city for for
33:37
Speaker 1: the for the fan base. Uh, it can't be for
33:40
Speaker 1: the team. That's that's for sure, because they they they
33:44
Speaker 1: and this is not a team that panics. But uh,
33:46
Speaker 1: these these tough moments, especially uh in the in the
33:49
Speaker 1: middle of the summer, the they can they can overwhelm
33:52
Speaker 1: a fan base. We'll see what happens though. All Right, everyone,
33:55
Speaker 1: thanks so much for listening. Katie's work is over at
33:58
Speaker 1: The Athletic. Make sure to check that out. She does
34:00
Speaker 1: wonderful stuff. And make sure you check out Cardinals Territory,
34:04
Speaker 1: great podcast. To make sure to rate review, subscribe to
34:07
Speaker 1: Northside Territory, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and subscribe to
34:11
Speaker 1: The Athletic where Patrick and I are on top of
34:13
Speaker 1: all things Cubs and Katie owns the Cardinals. Thanks for listening, everyone,
34:17
Speaker 1: Tack