Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Lee about his choice of The Timeless Children (2/2)

Transcript

Talks to Lee about his choice of The Timeless Children (2/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker, quicker
• 0:35
  quicker. Hello and welcome back to a
• 0:39
  Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife, in which Joe is going to make me
• 0:45
  watch this incredibly controversial, terrible so bad
• 0:52
  no one likes it episode that the monstrous Chris Chibnall did.
• 1:00
  What a terror he is. I know, I know, I'm I can only
• 1:03
  watch this maybe 10 or 15 more times or for the rest of my
• 1:08
  life, but this is a terrible episode.
• 1:11
  Lee Was it a dark day the first day you watched The Timeless
• 1:15
  Children? I Birds fell out of the sky, you
• 1:21
  know. There was dark clouds.
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  You know, I I used to have a full head of hair.
• 1:27
  Oh no, all my investments fell through.
• 1:32
  I mean honestly, all my stocks and bonds fell.
• 1:35
  Oh man, it was just the darkest of days, you know, I used to see
• 1:40
  in colour, you know, but then the toddlers children came out.
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  All I can see is black, white and grey now.
• 1:46
  Good God. I mean, people are a bit
• 1:48
  traumatic, aren't they? Yeah, they, they, they are, you
• 1:53
  know, thinking of Steven Moffett.
• 1:56
  There's Moffett. There's a thing I've been
• 1:58
  learning about when I love something to be careful how I
• 2:02
  speak about things that other people love and and to figure
• 2:06
  out if I'm trying to communicate something creatively or I'm
• 2:09
  trying to control their enjoyment of it.
• 2:12
  Right. Oh boy.
• 2:13
  You don't I I realized helping somebody understand something
• 2:18
  about something that needs to be understood is important, but
• 2:20
  taking away their joy? Yeah.
• 2:25
  I'm like that intensity of argument, and I could be that
• 2:27
  way. I can get intense about an
• 2:28
  argument or something like that. And it's like, I've got to watch
• 2:31
  that because it's not good for me and it's not good for them.
• 2:36
  And some people respond to the timeless children with such rage
• 2:42
  and so forth that they try to take away the people's joy.
• 2:45
  Who loves it and and, and again, Moffett is a good example of
• 2:50
  that. So I'm very critical of that
• 2:53
  run, but I try to be very thoughtful about it.
• 2:56
  And I realized that neither of us win if I take away your joy
• 3:01
  around it. And when you think that, you see
• 3:04
  more good stuff, like I enjoy Steven Moffett more.
• 3:09
  On, on this podcast is such a great poem on this podcast.
• 3:14
  I, I have issues for that era. So I deliberately bring people
• 3:19
  on board and I say to them, please let me see this through
• 3:23
  your eyes. And very often I'll come away
• 3:26
  from those conversations appreciating things that I
• 3:29
  didn't like before. You know, maybe I don't like
• 3:31
  them overall, but there's bits in there that I like.
• 3:34
  And actually, I did a commentary recently on an episode where I
• 3:39
  really hated it and they likes it.
• 3:42
  And I think at the end of the episode they liked it less.
• 3:44
  And I felt so bad. But I was like, you know, I said
• 3:49
  to this, this fella like, we're going to have a battle here
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  because I really, I know you do. And so I really went for it.
• 3:57
  But you're right, there's a way, there's a line that you can walk
• 4:01
  where you're critical, but you're thoughtful.
• 4:05
  And sometimes I think I'm this side of the line and sometimes I
• 4:09
  think I'm. So you just give me a little
• 4:10
  slap. All right.
• 4:11
  If I go with that side of the line, I don't I.
• 4:16
  Don't think we're going to have an issue with this episode.
• 4:19
  And you know, I referred back to that other pod, not with vlog.
• 4:23
  I think it was video that you did with The Who corner to
• 4:27
  corner guys. They're lovely boys.
• 4:31
  You got, I've seen you have this type of conversation with some
• 4:35
  of your guests, but there was a kind of synergy that you you
• 4:39
  guys had and I, and this is a thing you must have seen over
• 4:43
  the years that there's a each time you bring people together
• 4:48
  that there's, there's something that happens, right?
• 4:51
  Like there's a different recipe that's being made.
• 4:53
  And I don't know how often you can predict it or not predict
• 4:56
  it, but you started talking a a bit about resolution.
• 5:03
  And there's a way I kind of cringe sometimes when people are
• 5:07
  going to talk about certain episodes of Doctor Who.
• 5:10
  There's a scene, there's a scene in resolution that I'm so used
• 5:15
  to people dismissing, right? And, and, and I and I can't list
• 5:20
  all the pods, but you guys were talking about that scene.
• 5:23
  It's the scene where Ryan and his father are talking shot
• 5:26
  right. Beautiful.
• 5:28
  Yeah. Now I'm particularly sensitive
• 5:31
  to that scene because of how I've heard people talk about it.
• 5:37
  And there's a way that the three of you spoke about that.
• 5:41
  You, the way I'm saying this, you'll think you talk about it
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  for 20 minutes. Of course you didn't.
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  But watching that, and I assume one of both of them are parents
• 5:49
  as well. I'm not sure.
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  Like there, there's a whole thing that, that that you guys
• 5:54
  had in the thing that I think you maybe only spoke about two
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  or three minutes. You you brought it up, you
• 5:59
  acknowledged the beauty of the scene and then they ran with it
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  and you and it, it, it was, it was really nice.
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  And I think I even lost where I started with this, which is not
• 6:12
  unusual for me. I mean, I, I just went
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  downstairs. Now listen, I'm doing this on
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  the so sorry to not spare your blushes, but I just went
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  downstairs to make a coffee between the two episodes we're
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  recording. And I just said to my partner, I
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  said, oh, he's wonderful. It's a great conversation.
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  It is great. You are right.
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  It's a different energy every time and, and you get you sort
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  of come to different conclusions every time and you come away
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  from every, every conversation learning something.
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  That's why you do it. But with those boys, I mean, I
• 6:43
  remember that scene in particular because I've had that
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  moment with my dad where basically my dad is Ryan's dad.
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  A bit of a disappointment, a bit of a slacker, someone who's kind
• 6:54
  of trying but doesn't really know how to be a dad.
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  So the fact that that episode took 5 minutes out to have that
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  really intense conversation between and I was like, wow.
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  And I did that with my dad in a pub after he came out of prison.
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  I actually had that conversation with him where I said I'm really
• 7:12
  sorry, but you weren't there and we can't have this relationship
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  now. And I'm, you know, so that's the
• 7:17
  sort of Chris Chipnall stuff that really I appreciate.
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  It's subtle. It's not the end of the
• 7:23
  universe. It's not, I don't know, Clara,
• 7:27
  the mysterious impossible girl. It's not Amy Pond and her mother
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  who the Doctor meets all out of order.
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  It's not odd that it's two men talking in a cafe about real
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  feelings. And I think Doctor Who can and
• 7:43
  should do that sort of thing. And I think that's what Chipnall
• 7:46
  really brings to the show, and I don't care who knows it.
• 7:52
  Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's blows me away that he's the
• 7:55
  guy who wrote was it cold Earth or cold?
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  You know the sailor It, it blows me away.
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  It's the same guy because I do not like that.
• 8:05
  No, I I really don't know. I don't listen to that
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  commentary. Bloody.
• 8:08
  Oh, I was very. I did last.
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  But like by the time he got to stuff like I really like the
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  power of free, you know, with the cubes, and you get that
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  wonderful scene with the Doctor and Amy outside where Amy's
• 8:22
  thinking about leaving him. And it's just the two of them
• 8:26
  talking and all of that nonsense, all of that timey
• 8:28
  wimey stuff, it's all just thrown out and it's two people
• 8:31
  just talking. Yeah, well, look, let's go and
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  watch two people talking. But in the same breath, we're
• 8:37
  going to watch more cyber action.
• 8:40
  Now, you was a little disappointed with what Ryan was
• 8:42
  up to in episode 1, but in episode 2, man, he's frowned.
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  Bombs the Cybermen left, right and centre as well.
• 8:48
  Yes. Well, since you intro this
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  episode, shall I count as in? Yes, but I need to do so.
• 8:57
  The reason I start first is there's a thing where I get a
• 9:00
  little wheel and stuff like that, so I'd rather get past
• 9:03
  that than pause. Just so you know why I do it
• 9:07
  this way. Buffering, I mean, ought to get
• 9:11
  it, yeah. It does a little buffering.
• 9:13
  I have a nice setup, but that's a bit annoying.
• 9:16
  OK, and I'm back at 0. Yep, I'm at 0.
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  So let's. I will count as in then in 321
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  off we go. I haven't told you as well.
• 9:28
  Look, look what my microphones is sitting on.
• 9:31
  Look, it's a replica of 13th Doctors console.
• 9:35
  You talk about that being a phallic bad.
• 9:39
  Bad. Excuse me.
• 9:40
  Look at that. That is phallic as.
• 9:45
  FI got it out the other day when I was doing the 13th Doctor
• 9:47
  Strictly Special and my of Raff went, what have you been doing
• 9:51
  with this? I was like, I'm not saying it
• 9:54
  was just to show everyone on the call.
• 9:56
  Now I have to go to church and light candles.
• 9:59
  Oh please, will you say a prayer for me, please?
• 10:05
  Oh. We've missed.
• 10:07
  We're back. No.
• 10:07
  No, no, no, no. Oh, I'm on the wrong episode.
• 10:12
  Rookie mistake, right? Come on, let's go back.
• 10:17
  I'm going back. It was only 50 seconds in.
• 10:19
  Don't worry about it. Well, you know what it means.
• 10:22
  You know what it? Means like, why do I see a
• 10:23
  floating Cyberman head? You know what it means.
• 10:26
  Don't you people get to spend 50 more seconds with us today?
• 10:29
  I mean, come on, it's your lucky day, folks.
• 10:34
  We'll see what notes they send you later.
• 10:36
  It's like could you please? Not you.
• 10:40
  Get that man back on, please. No, I, I think it's going to be
• 10:44
  quite the other way around, actually.
• 10:46
  I think other people like to hear new voices as well, you
• 10:49
  know, like, yeah, it can't be Fraser bloody Gregory every
• 10:52
  month. I mean, good grief, in my
• 10:55
  opinion. This is I'm a break as well as I
• 10:57
  I imagine because it's they seem like they're doing a lot of
• 11:00
  stuff. I love the rotation and you've
• 11:02
  got 3 new people recently. Am I?
• 11:04
  Yeah, no, this year, actually this year I've had 677 new
• 11:09
  people this year. Yeah, well.
• 11:11
  I remember a few of your recent pods there were your invasion of
• 11:15
  the dinosaur person I. I was Paul Arthur.
• 11:17
  Yeah, He was a newbie. Martin Parsons has been new this
• 11:21
  year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:22
  Yeah, I've I've I've enjoyed it, even though I disagree with the
• 11:25
  Sarah Jane comment from the. Oh, I know.
• 11:29
  Good grief if looks could kill, you know, on that call.
• 11:33
  I could push him off the Cliff with Brendan.
• 11:36
  By the way. He I really enjoyed his
• 11:39
  commentary. I really did.
• 11:42
  I really. Don't worry, Paul, he said.
• 11:44
  New York, right? He ain't close.
• 11:48
  OK, right. Luck out as in.
• 11:50
  Yes, please you. Definitely got the right
• 11:52
  episode. I definitely have the right to
• 11:54
  say. We'll go in, then in 321, off we
• 12:01
  go. Let's fly.
• 12:03
  Oh my God, I've just remembered we're going to see even Chatoon
• 12:05
  in this episode, aren't we? That was so.
• 12:09
  It was so messed up. Sorry, talk about skipping
• 12:12
  straight to the end. That pissed me off when I
• 12:16
  watched it again yesterday. Oh, it means you and you get to
• 12:19
  go and watch Revolution of the Daleks.
• 12:21
  Oh my God. Look, it's everything that
• 12:22
  happened last week. I mean, it's all going on here.
• 12:27
  You know, there's something I really loved about this series.
• 12:29
  I don't know how many people appreciate it.
• 12:31
  I loved how they did the next episode trailers.
• 12:34
  Go on. Teaser that spoiled nothing.
• 12:38
  Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I that.
• 12:41
  Worked for me. Even because like I got the the
• 12:45
  spoiler. I know you said you were spoiler
• 12:47
  for the spy master in Yeah, I was spoiled by the John SIM
• 12:54
  master in World of a Time because they put it in the
• 12:56
  trailer. I couldn't believe it.
• 12:58
  I'm like, why is that there? I didn't remember.
• 13:01
  I had that spoiled for me through social media when I
• 13:04
  wasn't looking for it. Social media that.
• 13:08
  Was spoiled for me by a business enterprise article.
• 13:13
  I mean, I would say social media dooms us all, but we wouldn't
• 13:16
  have met otherwise, so, you know.
• 13:17
  Agree. This is true.
• 13:19
  This is true. OK, well now he's.
• 13:23
  So. Look, he's kind of he's
• 13:25
  murdering people already. Like he's choosing who to
• 13:28
  shrink. Don't you love the return of the
• 13:31
  tissue compression alumni? I was so happy.
• 13:35
  I was so disappointed when we didn't see it in the RTRTV or
• 13:40
  Moffett. Moffett didn't do it did I can't
• 13:43
  remember. Did you ever did you ever hear
• 13:45
  the story about how the scenes in the seismology thing in Power
• 13:51
  of the Doctor was filmed at my Marks work?
• 13:55
  Oh yes, but the script right? Then we've got the script.
• 13:59
  But the only reason he knew it was the master was because there
• 14:01
  was a whole tub of little figures and he went, it's going
• 14:05
  to be the master. I found a load of shrunken
• 14:07
  people. That makes perfect sense, but
• 14:11
  can we talk about how hot this scene is where they come in and
• 14:14
  shoot, shooting that and they killed that?
• 14:18
  Yeah, that's ruthless. Oh, did you see her arm like
• 14:21
  what I was talking? About yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:24
  Look at his his profile by the way, Assad, the way he does his
• 14:28
  mouth and everything that I just, they're trying to give us
• 14:31
  everything. There's real energy in the
• 14:34
  action in this. I mean, I remember, do you
• 14:38
  remember the bit where the Cybermen storm unit in power of
• 14:40
  the Doctor, I mean, ash, it's just literally tearing walls
• 14:45
  open and things. It's like, it is like watching
• 14:47
  an Avengers movie. It's incredible.
• 14:49
  It's beautiful. Oh, even this the the sort of
• 14:52
  volcanic ash flying around them on Gallifrey.
• 14:57
  Don't tell me. Jodie Whisker, Connor, MO.
• 14:58
  Look at her there. She's got tears in her eyes.
• 15:03
  And it's she's good subtle, and she's good intense.
• 15:08
  Oh, that is a great line. She goes right up to him and
• 15:11
  goes and has it calmed all the rage.
• 15:17
  And, and I think we see people in the world who have this rage
• 15:21
  or this pain that they can't address, and they will destroy
• 15:25
  everyone to try to quell it. It's kind of terrifying, isn't
• 15:32
  it? But yeah.
• 15:33
  It's very terrifying. I and I think as well the the
• 15:40
  idea that the Master has destroyed Gallifrey because he's
• 15:44
  so angry, because his rival turns out to be this all
• 15:51
  important figure in Gallifrey in history where he's got such an
• 15:55
  inferiority complex. He's always trying to best the
• 15:57
  Doctor right throughout the entire It makes perfect sense to
• 16:00
  me that he would just lash out in the most destructive way
• 16:04
  possible. And he has her DNA in him.
• 16:10
  Totally messes with his head. Oh dear, we go, oh, is this
• 16:17
  where they're talking about going into the cyber Cyber?
• 16:20
  Yeah, Graham's great plan. Why have we never done that
• 16:24
  before? I wonder how easy it is.
• 16:29
  Well, they they. Have two people who can do it
• 16:31
  right now. Don't they have to take out
• 16:33
  what's in there? Yeah, so, so one, I think
• 16:36
  they're going to break it down. Like I, I think she can open
• 16:39
  them and the guy can remove the innards.
• 16:44
  I'm assuming they're the, they're the organic ones.
• 16:47
  They're not ones that Assad has already gotten to.
• 16:51
  In fact, for their sakes, I would hope it's the ones that
• 16:54
  Assad has already taken out the organics.
• 16:57
  If, oh, there you go. If you do the bodies I could
• 17:00
  disable. I would not be volunteering to
• 17:02
  scoop out the innards, all right, but it's a great grizzly
• 17:08
  idea. It is an extremely and I'm I'm,
• 17:12
  you know, I would have been bad enough to do this.
• 17:14
  I would have had like the Sloop sounds.
• 17:16
  I would have totally done. That all about them.
• 17:23
  The chainsaw coming out. OK yeah, here we go.
• 17:28
  You know, would have done that. Eric.
• 17:31
  Eric's award from the 18th. Oh, I still can't get the name
• 17:34
  right. Oh.
• 17:36
  Soward say words, I say say word.
• 17:39
  Though you're right. You're right.
• 17:41
  I say Soward and everyone tells me off.
• 17:44
  Yeah, you could be a pacifist tomorrow, today.
• 17:48
  You have to survive. Sometimes that is true.
• 17:51
  Not. Sad.
• 17:51
  Yeah. And I, you know, I never
• 17:55
  pictured a basketball when he first handed that to him.
• 17:58
  And the call back to see to the season premiere, it's just so
• 18:02
  cool. It's cool.
• 18:03
  I love these stats. And it's, did you see that zoom
• 18:06
  in on the Sister then as well? There's a, there's a sequence
• 18:11
  later where he's telling her the back story where you see the
• 18:13
  Citadel being built a bit at a time.
• 18:17
  Oh, it's just amazing. You know, I, I may have to take
• 18:20
  back my Patrick Trout and thing. I think it's just the initial
• 18:23
  impression. I don't know.
• 18:25
  Maybe it's the hair as well. The hair is very trout and I
• 18:27
  ass. The hair and the the it's like
• 18:29
  the trousers. I mean, he just.
• 18:32
  Gives me like a dark Patrick Trout.
• 18:35
  And he is sort of a bit Pixies and he's a bit naughty, you
• 18:38
  know, But I mean, he hates her, doesn't he?
• 18:42
  I I with the SIM Master, I got the feeling that he was like a
• 18:46
  little kid sort of railing against the UNIT with the Gomez
• 18:50
  Master or with Missy, I felt as if she was more his friend.
• 18:54
  He hates the Doctor. 2 levels that.
• 19:01
  I mean, do you remember that sequence in Spy for when they're
• 19:04
  on top of the Eiffel Tower? Yeah, I recently rewatched.
• 19:09
  Yeah, I was going to try to watch the whole season before we
• 19:13
  did this. By his research.
• 19:15
  All right. Thank you.
• 19:16
  Well, I also love it. It's, you know, it's not an arm
• 19:19
  twist. Oh, what does he say to him?
• 19:24
  Is that a choice the way you look?
• 19:28
  And I don't mean to conversion shame you, that's.
• 19:30
  It yeah. Oh, that's good.
• 19:32
  The lines. Yeah, he really can write funny
• 19:36
  lines, can't he, Chris Chip know like people think he can't.
• 19:39
  What about this? You ready My?
• 19:41
  Family. Well, I mean.
• 19:43
  I know you. I know you hate that.
• 19:45
  I've heard you. Well, no Oxo of hate.
• 19:47
  Love it. You know, it's the same way I
• 19:50
  feel about Time Lash or things like that.
• 19:51
  You know? I think it's terrible, but it
• 19:53
  does make me laugh. The one thing I like about that
• 19:59
  I can kind of give time lash is the scenery truing.
• 20:03
  Of and I forget the actor's name all of a sudden, who plays?
• 20:06
  Paul Darrow. Paul Darrow.
• 20:08
  I'm such a Blake 7 fan I should. Don't you get me to start doing
• 20:11
  Paul Darrow impressions, all right?
• 20:12
  And you are the traitor. She went up every bit of
• 20:18
  scenery. But Chibnu also gave us lines
• 20:21
  like, do you remember in Resolution where it's just the
• 20:23
  confrontation with the Dalek? And then she goes out of the
• 20:25
  room and goes, oh, how long was a rail?
• 20:28
  Like, you know, it's really funny stuff.
• 20:32
  Or the suntaran, who goes, what is it?
• 20:34
  I wanted to ride a horse, you know?
• 20:38
  You know, we talked about this. Oh, they're talking about the
• 20:42
  death, a deletion squat. He he is, he is messing with the
• 20:47
  Cybermen so much it is not even funny.
• 20:50
  But we talk about how good Chipnor was with Daleks and the
• 20:55
  Cybermen. The suntarans haven't been that
• 21:00
  good in they're frigging brilliant.
• 21:03
  Maybe since even. The best?
• 21:05
  Yeah, maybe their best. Maybe.
• 21:07
  The War of the Sontarans is probably my favorite Sontarans
• 21:10
  story. Oh, a shot, man.
• 21:15
  I think he got cheated with the Oh my goodness the cyber
• 21:22
  cylorians cousins. Oh, the Sea Devils.
• 21:27
  The Sea Devils, I, I think, I wonder what it would have been
• 21:30
  if he had more time and he wouldn't.
• 21:31
  Do yeah, that one, clearly. There was I love this with he
• 21:37
  tells the Ryan and the other guy to girder to their lines.
• 21:40
  Like, I don't know. These Cybermen are so fantastic,
• 21:46
  aren't they? The war, I hope the warrior
• 21:50
  Cybermen, they continue using them.
• 21:53
  Oh, and. But I also would have been OK
• 21:55
  with the the steel mills Daleks being the Daleks from now on.
• 22:01
  I'm sorry, I love those so much. Well, it's just that there's no
• 22:04
  one in it, and you can see there's no one in it because the
• 22:06
  middle is so thin. You know, I thought they were.
• 22:09
  But the Cyber Lords, I mean, when I saw them back in time,
• 22:13
  not time. Is the power of the Doctor on
• 22:15
  that track? I was punching the air going.
• 22:17
  Yes. The idea of a psych man that can
• 22:20
  regenerate is so funny. I think it's great.
• 22:23
  It is my. Oh, this is that same.
• 22:25
  Yeah, he says. You are a very impressive young
• 22:30
  woman and I I don't underestimate how good Mandip is
• 22:35
  like and she gets so many great opportunities in her third year
• 22:41
  in flux and even the Daleks and power of the Doctor what sort of
• 22:45
  when she's the the focus. I think they needed to rotate
• 22:50
  them a bit more with each other in in season 1 and even this
• 22:54
  season because this scene, this scene is lovely.
• 22:56
  But more scenes of of Graham and Yaz talking to each other, more
• 23:01
  scenes of Yaz and Ryan talking to each other.
• 23:05
  And I wanted more scenes of Ryan and the Doctor together.
• 23:09
  So I was This is why I was so disappointed.
• 23:13
  What a beautiful thing for him to be center.
• 23:15
  But This is why I was a bit disappointed with the previous
• 23:18
  episode, because here they are together and it's not being
• 23:21
  taken advantage of. And it's, I guess it's tricky
• 23:24
  with all the storytelling, but I, I don't think it's
• 23:27
  impossible. Well, it's when you get.
• 23:29
  Oh, look, do you see the way she just, she teared a little bit as
• 23:32
  he was saying it? She does.
• 23:34
  That all the time. Yeah, it's, it's very method,
• 23:37
  but oh boy, yeah. That.
• 23:39
  I mean, she does it when she sees the Weeping Angel.
• 23:41
  She does it when she sees the Daleks.
• 23:43
  She does fear with tears absolutely brilliantly.
• 23:46
  This is what I didn't like about Clara.
• 23:48
  A lot of the times she wasn't able to convey the jeopardy of
• 23:52
  the city and which is weird because she's an amazing.
• 23:54
  Actor. Yeah, she's fantastic.
• 23:56
  It was a decision, yeah. Yeah, yeah, she's she's just
• 23:59
  sort of smugly walked around as if very unimpressed by.
• 24:02
  Oh, whoa, really? OK, there was 1 moment and that
• 24:05
  was in last Christmas when she was under that table.
• 24:08
  Do you remember when the the pod burst open and she screams?
• 24:12
  But that was a dream. So that wasn't really Clara.
• 24:16
  That was, and she was afraid. But you're right, when we get
• 24:21
  those moments between Yas and and and there is a moment in
• 24:25
  Revolution of the Daleks where Ryan and the Doctor talk in the
• 24:28
  TARDIS. Do you remember?
• 24:30
  And he says, I'm probably going to go.
• 24:31
  And she tries to change the subject away from all of this
• 24:34
  stuff. She's like, and he goes, no, no,
• 24:35
  no, we're not doing that. We're going to talk about this
• 24:38
  because this is really important to you.
• 24:39
  And you're like, where was this? We needed more of this.
• 24:44
  Now I think they had done more for me to believe that he would
• 24:48
  get to that point than they did with yes.
• 24:54
  I did like, I liked him. Can you hear me that he's
• 24:57
  looking after his friend with mental health problems.
• 25:00
  And then in this he realizes I've got things I've got to do.
• 25:03
  I've got people I've got to look after like.
• 25:06
  I love it. That that shot of the destroyed
• 25:10
  citadel. It's beautiful, isn't?
• 25:12
  It it's that's not what we that absolute destruction is
• 25:19
  absolutely beautiful and that so now this is the panopticon from
• 25:29
  Deadly Assassin, isn't it? I don't know how exact it is,
• 25:32
  but that's what I think. That's I, that's what I believe.
• 25:35
  I agree with you. Yeah, because you look, you see
• 25:38
  the stairs coming down. There's the stairs in the Deadly
• 25:40
  Assassin as well, with the Rays Plimp in the middle.
• 25:43
  Oh, yeah, yeah, it's so, yeah. I wasn't sure, but that's what
• 25:46
  it made me think of, I think. Yeah.
• 25:49
  So the Mass has gone digging into the Matrix, trying to find
• 25:53
  out, you know, what Time Lord's secrets he can get.
• 25:56
  That's where we uncovered the truth.
• 26:03
  Oh. Now, this was something I had an
• 26:07
  issue with in this episode, and that is it was just the fact
• 26:11
  that the doctor is held still in that force field for about 20
• 26:18
  minutes now. But I now I'm like, no, well,
• 26:22
  what other way are we really going to tell all this back
• 26:24
  story? We're not We're not going to go
• 26:25
  back in time and see it first hand.
• 26:27
  So she has to be forced to stay still so we can tell her
• 26:31
  everything he needs to tell her. But it is unusual to take the
• 26:33
  doctor out of the out of the action for such a long period of
• 26:37
  time. Well, they also leverage the the
• 26:39
  being in the matrix as where she gets mobility back, as if you
• 26:44
  consider it much mobility, she gets a bit back.
• 26:47
  But I know this. I know this bug people.
• 26:49
  I've heard other, I think I've heard people in your pod talk
• 26:51
  about this bugging them too. I mean, I think the general
• 26:56
  consensus on hamster is that they really people really like
• 26:59
  this era. But I do think, I think people
• 27:02
  who. Hated it.
• 27:03
  I must be misremembering. No, there are some.
• 27:08
  Some of my closest friends really don't like this era as
• 27:11
  well. Yeah, right is.
• 27:12
  It right? Rod Yeah, yeah.
• 27:14
  Nathan Bossumley, Stephen Burzynski.
• 27:17
  There's people I know that really hate this stuff, but you
• 27:19
  know, and fair enough. That's all.
• 27:22
  Opinions welcome space for all as they say in the 13th Doctor's
• 27:26
  era, the. TARDIS is big enough for
• 27:30
  everyone. These scenes now look at Yas
• 27:33
  inside the suit crying I. Mean she's got eye.
• 27:39
  She's got eye acting, if that's a thing.
• 27:41
  Like she could act with one eye. That direction, so you're seeing
• 27:44
  her eye like crying and then you're seeing through the eye a
• 27:49
  shad looking at her that's really suspendable.
• 27:52
  That's that's Alfred Hitchcock. Good, that is.
• 27:56
  Oh, the tear. The tear, yeah.
• 28:00
  Oh, and you think because he goes for something, doesn't he?
• 28:02
  You think, oh, he's found them? I, you know, I've got to be
• 28:08
  honestly, I think people forget about all of this really
• 28:11
  fantastic stuff and the stuff fight in the Cybermen because of
• 28:17
  the mythology stuff. I think that's all people
• 28:19
  remember in this episode, but that it's maybe 15 minutes of
• 28:22
  this episode. The rest of it is just really
• 28:25
  exciting action stuff. Oh, and the cyber fleet going,
• 28:31
  the cyber ship going through the barrier.
• 28:33
  They come into Gallifrey. I mean it's the most fan wank
• 28:39
  thing I could possibly think of is when the Cybermen all come
• 28:42
  into the panopticon, but I love it.
• 28:46
  Oh. Better than those, better than
• 28:49
  those Centaurians. And you know, we spent time in
• 28:52
  the Matrix before, haven't we? Deadly assassin, Ultimate foe,
• 28:59
  Arc of Infinity. He's Tectaeun.
• 29:07
  So was she evil or just misguided?
• 29:12
  Yes. No, I think she lost her way.
• 29:17
  You, you know, like the way I talked about when you're trying
• 29:19
  to discuss a show and you're, you're disagreeing with somebody
• 29:22
  and it turns away from a constructive discussion
• 29:24
  discussion to trying to destroy something or whatever.
• 29:27
  So I I think she must have been wonderful in the beginning and
• 29:32
  she became obsessed with decoding the doctor.
• 29:39
  I mean, the, the, the whole thing about being an explorer
• 29:42
  and all of that, those are all positive traits.
• 29:44
  Abusing a child, That is pretty terrifying it.
• 29:49
  Didn't start that way, you know what I mean?
• 29:51
  Like that. So she, she that obsession with
• 29:55
  figuring that out became more important than the reality of
• 29:58
  her child's existence. And I think we see this going on
• 30:02
  in the world now. The idea of something is
• 30:05
  becoming more important than. Yeah.
• 30:09
  Do you remember the first glimpse we got of this in the
• 30:13
  Ghost Monument? It was right back at the start
• 30:15
  of the era. So he waited two seasons.
• 30:19
  Wait a minute, wait a minute, a minute.
• 30:20
  Are you talking about the physical planet?
• 30:23
  That planet? That she, the shot of her, the
• 30:26
  child underneath that monument there, there's a flash to it in
• 30:30
  the ghost monument. Yeah, right back at the start.
• 30:33
  I know where I'm going next. Yeah, it's a fun episode now.
• 30:39
  I mean, it's kind of hard to watch this though.
• 30:41
  And, and good it should be when she's doing all these
• 30:45
  experiments on on the poor kid. What she's doing right at that
• 30:50
  point is not the experiment. She just examined her because
• 30:53
  she just found her. But to me, she's a proper mom.
• 30:58
  Until this, which you have tied back to Brendan and this and the
• 31:03
  fall looks the same. Oh my God.
• 31:06
  It's exactly the same effect, isn't it?
• 31:08
  Yeah, actually, do you know what?
• 31:11
  Like, I mean, I've been watching a lot of true crime stuff
• 31:13
  lately. Very often people are just
• 31:16
  ordinary mums and dads, aren't they?
• 31:18
  Until that fateful day that something happens, you know,
• 31:23
  that sort of redefines the relationship.
• 31:26
  Oh, like the mom in cold blood? Like, was she a monster before
• 31:31
  then? Or you know.
• 31:33
  She was very quick to commit murder.
• 31:40
  And you know, I also love about the timeless child thing, right?
• 31:43
  Is that, and I'm, I'm really surprised they didn't do this is
• 31:48
  because we've now learnt there's all these doctors before William
• 31:52
  Hartnell. Yeah, we don't know how many.
• 31:54
  So one, it just kicks all the 5th, 6th, 7th Doctor.
• 31:57
  That's all out the window now, which is good because we've hit
• 32:00
  the 13th Doctor and we've been told 13 regenerations is all you
• 32:03
  can have. So he's basically blowing all
• 32:05
  that out of the water and say no, you can have as many as you
• 32:07
  want. But it means any old actor.
• 32:11
  Oh boy, that's an amazing special effect.
• 32:15
  Any any old actor that you love, you could be like, yeah, that's
• 32:20
  not true. That is like, you know what I
• 32:22
  mean? Judi Dench.
• 32:23
  Yeah, of course she is. Like, I don't know why they
• 32:26
  didn't do one special and just bring in some amazing A Lister
• 32:29
  and just have like a timeless Dr. special.
• 32:32
  It, it, it, it could totally work, especially at times where
• 32:37
  there's going to be a gap in the main production.
• 32:39
  You just have a little fun like that.
• 32:41
  But I in my mind, I also have this image of them recasting
• 32:45
  some of the original doctors, which some people would probably
• 32:48
  hate, and had been doing a few specials with them, maybe for
• 32:52
  like a lost story or something like that.
• 32:54
  A story that you're pretty sure you're not going to get back.
• 32:57
  It's basically what Big Finish do, right?
• 32:59
  And I think they're doing a great job with it.
• 33:03
  I know they were reluctant for so long, no.
• 33:05
  No, no, no. But I should.
• 33:06
  I should. Here we go.
• 33:07
  Here we go. Oh, it's going to blow them off.
• 33:09
  I appreciate. This until I rewatched it again.
• 33:12
  Go on, Ryan. It's literally that scene from
• 33:16
  the season premiere. I just.
• 33:18
  And I've heard people go, oh, God, is that is that he knows
• 33:21
  how to throw a basketball. That fellas got dyspraxia, all
• 33:24
  right? And he's just taken out a load
• 33:26
  of sidemen with a bomb cut in some slack.
• 33:29
  Oh, now look, they're going to do it now.
• 33:36
  Oh, I love it. I love it when they pop.
• 33:39
  That toxic masculinity is so funny.
• 33:43
  He is. You're right.
• 33:44
  He's really good at comedy. Oh, here's a shot on Gallif
• 33:51
  right now, Rusty. Armor.
• 33:53
  Oh yeah, yeah. It's all going on there, isn't
• 33:56
  it? There's so much to comment on.
• 33:59
  I don't know, but, and I'm kind of surprised I I thought I
• 34:02
  wouldn't be able to find anything that's too much enough
• 34:04
  to talk about, but wow. So now we've seen Daleks on
• 34:07
  Gallifrey, we've obviously seen Sontarans on Gallifrey in the
• 34:10
  Invasion of Time and now some sack men.
• 34:15
  Do they really count as Centaurians?
• 34:17
  I don't know. What they should have saw.
• 34:19
  Let me stop. Let me stop them.
• 34:21
  Baked potatoes maybe? Oh I love I the scenes between
• 34:30
  the Master and a shot are great because he's sort of mocking him
• 34:35
  whilst he's doing the alliance. And I wondered if a shot
• 34:42
  understood that or he just didn't give a damn.
• 34:44
  You know, like I was trying to figure that.
• 34:48
  The death particle. Oh my word, that doesn't sound
• 34:51
  very good. So their plan then?
• 34:57
  The Cyberman plan is to destroy all organic life, so there will
• 35:01
  only be technological life left? Will that make sense?
• 35:06
  It's almost as much sense as the Daleks destroying all life so
• 35:10
  they can be alone and. What ultimately though, and I do
• 35:14
  wish the Doctor would ask this sort of question more often.
• 35:16
  Once all their enemies are destroyed, well, what then?
• 35:20
  What do they do then? Yeah.
• 35:23
  Would they just sort of live on the cyber planet and be happy?
• 35:29
  Oh, the master like. How was it logical?
• 35:31
  But I don't think a shot is logical.
• 35:35
  Always say, well, because purged of all organic components,
• 35:39
  because the mast went, excuse me, the five men are partially
• 35:43
  organic, you know. Like he gives a perfect answer
• 35:51
  to this. Did he say it yet?
• 35:54
  What's that? Oh, I think it's coming.
• 35:58
  Simple response he gives. Oh, you mean robots?
• 36:04
  And then he goes, oh, it's a bit rubbish, isn't it?
• 36:07
  Like it doesn't even mock that plan.
• 36:09
  The face shakes. Robots.
• 36:13
  Oh, I'm a bit disappointed. I see how you've got there.
• 36:19
  Oh, bless him. He lacks vision.
• 36:21
  Yeah, so I'm just reading all the subtitles now.
• 36:26
  Yeah, that's why I had to move things so I could see the
• 36:27
  subtitles. And so the master then comes in
• 36:30
  and goes, well, look, instead of being robots, I could turn you
• 36:33
  into Time Lords, you know? Oh, wait, I've just thought
• 36:37
  about this for a second late. Does that mean they take all of
• 36:40
  the Time Lord bodies are about and.
• 36:45
  He has them stored, which also confused me about the Time Lords
• 36:49
  really being gone, because if their bodies are there, it
• 36:52
  depends on what death is, right? Like, but they're capable of
• 36:55
  regenerating. I may be going too into the
• 36:58
  weeds. Do you kind of get where I'm
• 36:59
  going? Like if you treat regeneration,
• 37:01
  are they still there? But so the cyber laws, yeah, the
• 37:06
  cyber time laws. So can I just go on forever?
• 37:12
  It's a good question. Did he unlock the limitation?
• 37:14
  Did he, you know, that this, all these, all of these things?
• 37:18
  It's quite a bit where one of them gets knocked down and then
• 37:21
  you just see the energy coming out.
• 37:23
  I was like, come on. It's so, it's so good.
• 37:29
  It's so good in my mind because I rewrite fiction in my head, so
• 37:37
  Leela is in some sort of protected space with Romana and
• 37:43
  maybe Susan on Gallifrey, and they're still alive.
• 37:47
  I think we have to head counted that because the thought of them
• 37:51
  dead or Gallifrey or worse, Cyber Lords, Yeah.
• 37:57
  Oh, that would have been a great engine to this.
• 37:58
  So if one of them just pulled out a knife and went, no, I'm
• 38:01
  going to take you all down. Oh, now, now listen, this is
• 38:07
  where we get the PowerPoint presentation, which I'm always
• 38:10
  going on about in now when I watch this, I'll please, I hope.
• 38:15
  And also your point about experimentation.
• 38:17
  Let's not lose that. This is a great illustration,
• 38:20
  but yes, your PowerPoint presentation.
• 38:21
  It didn't bother me this time. In fact, it's not 15 minutes,
• 38:25
  it's about 5 minutes and it's split up into several scenes.
• 38:30
  And I think it's it's a shift in mythology so big that it needs
• 38:36
  explanation. So God damn it, I was wrong.
• 38:42
  I don't say that very often. Well, the memory.
• 38:45
  The our memory messes with us every time I go back to
• 38:49
  something. Sometimes it's even better than
• 38:51
  I remembered. Or it should.
• 38:52
  I'm just wrong about something. Now I'm going to ask you if you
• 38:56
  have discovered a great secret like this.
• 38:58
  Yeah. Would you then be the first
• 39:01
  person to inject yourself with the actual energy?
• 39:06
  I believe this is a safe show to say this, but hell no.
• 39:11
  Hell no. Oh.
• 39:14
  Blow. It looks fun.
• 39:15
  All right, let's give it a go. Yeah, it was very brave of it.
• 39:21
  Oh, look at this shot of the city.
• 39:24
  Building it is such a cool shot it is.
• 39:28
  So great. I think that's one of the best
• 39:31
  visuals. How could people be unimpressed
• 39:36
  with the visuals here? Actually, I don't know that I
• 39:39
  heard many people say they were unimpressed.
• 39:41
  No, no, no, I, I think, I think that's the one thing kind of
• 39:45
  everyone can agree on. I mean, look at the old Time
• 39:48
  Lord collars look as melodramatic as they ever were.
• 39:53
  They kind of don't make sense to me unless there was a ritual
• 39:55
  going on. That's one of the things that
• 39:57
  annoyed me about the what Robert Holmes Caliphate triggered.
• 40:02
  I could believe stuff like this, but are you going to walk around
• 40:04
  to work and walk around to hang out and it's just a bit too
• 40:07
  much? I mean how much starch do you
• 40:10
  need to make a collar that stiff?
• 40:17
  But the I mean the the silhouette of it though in the
• 40:19
  light. Oh, did you confirm the
• 40:23
  director? Was it Jamie Magnuson?
• 40:25
  Do you know what? My phone's right here.
• 40:27
  I'm going to have a look while we're talking.
• 40:29
  Look, I love him in that waistcoat as well.
• 40:31
  In fact, do you know what? I've just.
• 40:33
  Look how he's look how he's holding this waistcoat.
• 40:35
  Do you like he's giving me that? It's hard.
• 40:38
  No, isn't. It that's hard.
• 40:40
  No, yeah, maybe he's gone back and watched some.
• 40:45
  Oh, what happened to the child? What happened?
• 40:48
  Jamie Magna Stone, Yeah. Oh, he's great.
• 40:53
  I love that she it's not clicking for her and I can
• 40:56
  there's blind spots or blind spots I can totally see her not.
• 41:01
  There's a real freeze on between the two of them though, isn't
• 41:04
  there? Like like I think it's sort of
• 41:06
  pot luck with your doctor and master as to web like I I do
• 41:10
  like Davison and Amley, but it doesn't sizzle like this.
• 41:19
  And I think actually a part of the reason to put the doctor in
• 41:23
  that force field for sort of 20 minutes is to give Sasha Juan a
• 41:26
  chance to do his stuff. You know, Jodie's in the whole
• 41:29
  season, so she's got plenty of time to that's.
• 41:31
  A good way to yeah and it works and it works.
• 41:38
  And this really is like, there's nowhere near as much of that
• 41:42
  stuff as I remember. There's far more of this stuff
• 41:45
  with them fighting the Cybermen. Yeah, he, he plotted this out
• 41:50
  well. Definitely didn't get enough
• 41:53
  credit. Coach Shabas just said yes, yes,
• 41:56
  kill them before they kill you, all right.
• 42:00
  I mean, especially like kids playing a computer game there
• 42:02
  isn't it like with the gun, the. Cool guns and yeah.
• 42:07
  Yeah, look at that lighting in that sort of tent city there.
• 42:10
  It's. Such a cool and also in wartime,
• 42:15
  you can't really structure what some of us might consider a
• 42:18
  proper home, which we we forget. There are people who will go
• 42:22
  well, why didn't they go here and why didn't it?
• 42:24
  It drives me nuts. The great ghoulish thing about
• 42:28
  the Cybermen is is they not only kill you, then they convert you.
• 42:31
  What was this? About that, I was so used to
• 42:36
  conversions not being after death, so I, you know, my brain
• 42:40
  never. Well, I think that's even worse,
• 42:44
  isn't it? It's worse when you're not
• 42:45
  there. It's horrific.
• 42:48
  Yeah, do. You remember Yvonne Hartman in
• 42:50
  Doomsday? Of course.
• 42:55
  Oh, Ryan. Oh, oh God, he knew he shot KO
• 42:57
  Sharmas. Don't shoot him.
• 42:59
  We need him for the end. He's got to take the fall.
• 43:05
  You've got 10 seconds to surrender.
• 43:07
  Well, that's not very long. Oh no, it's the kids.
• 43:13
  They found them in the. Oh my God, look, we're really
• 43:20
  tense now. We're both watching and.
• 43:24
  They made the kid likeable again.
• 43:27
  I mean, you, you know, Chris made you care about the kid.
• 43:30
  Does he die? I can't remember.
• 43:33
  No, He wants to wait, doesn't he?
• 43:35
  I can't remember. You want me to tell?
• 43:37
  You oh it's them. It's them.
• 43:38
  I love it. I really forgot.
• 43:41
  I love it. It's yes, of course it is.
• 43:47
  That's. Here we go.
• 43:48
  Look, look, look, Graham. Isn't that a great conceit?
• 43:53
  It was great. I hope people cheered.
• 43:57
  I hope people cheered. Yeah, look at me.
• 44:01
  He's like a naughty schoolboy. Look at him dashing around the
• 44:04
  cyber ship. It could have been a doctor,
• 44:06
  too. He's yeah, he's got it.
• 44:12
  I'll, I I always talk about the when he's watching Roger Delgado
• 44:17
  on the behind the sofas in the series 8 Blu-ray, him and Anjali
• 44:22
  Mahindra plays Ronnie and Sarah Jane adventures.
• 44:24
  They're partners and they're watching.
• 44:26
  Have you ever seen the Behind the Sofas?
• 44:29
  I've never watched one through but you know I buy all the Blu
• 44:32
  rays. I'll I'll have to check it out.
• 44:34
  So he's watching Delgado and he shot everything up until this at
• 44:38
  this point, but he hasn't done Power of the Doctor yet and he's
• 44:41
  watching Delgado and he's going, he's so still and he's so
• 44:45
  intense. And you watch when he comes back
• 44:46
  in Power of the Doctor, he's very still in those opening
• 44:50
  scenes as Rasputin. I'm like, I think he's learnt
• 44:53
  some tricks, you know? And why not learn from somebody
• 44:57
  who's doing something fantastic? That surprised me so much.
• 45:03
  He shrunk him. That surprised.
• 45:05
  Me so much. That's a fabulous effect as
• 45:08
  well, The Siberian. So what is that sort of
• 45:11
  Quicksilver containing all of the intelligence of the
• 45:13
  Cybermen? That's what I took it as, the AI
• 45:17
  for lack I don't know if. That's right, a hot topic at the
• 45:21
  moment. You know, like.
• 45:25
  I I, I deal with technology and I knew AI wasn't going to be a
• 45:32
  problem, but it's, it's still amazes me at all the ways it can
• 45:35
  be a problem. It's just my timeline just seems
• 45:39
  to be polluted by loads of pictures now that don't even
• 45:42
  look like people anymore. Is it?
• 45:45
  No Look, I'm sorry to get political.
• 45:47
  Is it using up all the water that they're saying?
• 45:50
  So it's resource intensive and they tend to put it in
• 45:54
  communities that are already underserved and under resourced.
• 45:58
  It raises their electric bills. It's worth doing a little look
• 46:02
  up of. I'm not saying there's not a
• 46:05
  world in which it can be leveraged, at least less
• 46:09
  resource intent. Oh, I can't remember what
• 46:12
  country they've moved. Totally green or mostly green,
• 46:17
  and they're going to be leveraging their AI resources
• 46:20
  through the green technology. So they're not going to take
• 46:22
  that level of hit, but you still have to worry about the
• 46:26
  potential negative social impact of AI as well.
• 46:29
  I can see like positive uses for it, but I can already see many
• 46:33
  negative uses for it as well. That's the human race, isn't it?
• 46:38
  You know, we find something, we've revolutionized something,
• 46:41
  we'll always find a way to exploit it in bad ways.
• 46:44
  Yeah, and we don't know when to stop.
• 46:46
  It's a bit like the Master, you know, turning the Cybermen into
• 46:50
  Time Lords just because you can do it.
• 46:55
  That's what I mean. You should.
• 46:58
  I love that you're just talking to the air and he's just, he's
• 47:02
  great. He.
• 47:03
  Doesn't care, doesn't he? And I like an actor that isn't
• 47:07
  afraid of the camera. And duo, man, he goes right up
• 47:10
  to the camera. It's almost like he says to the
• 47:12
  director, come on, bit closer. Oh, come on, I can.
• 47:14
  I can take it. Oh, man, he's great.
• 47:20
  Oh, this scene where this scene where she wakes up, well, it's
• 47:25
  all black and white, isn't it? And they're in colour on a
• 47:28
  hillside. Yeah.
• 47:31
  Wait, wait till she sort of gets out.
• 47:33
  But it's all bleached out. She is fucking livid in this
• 47:39
  scene. Yeah, look.
• 47:43
  Yeah, I can I tell you something.
• 47:45
  I didn't understand how he still maintained control as he was
• 47:49
  trying to absorb the Siberian. But I you know, again, this may
• 47:52
  be one of the thing, this may be me not understanding how he can
• 47:56
  be in two places, like if this is just an avatar or something.
• 47:59
  I don't know. Yeah.
• 48:00
  So he left a little sort of seed of himself inside there just to
• 48:03
  wind her up or to give her the exposition that she needs.
• 48:09
  Living rent free inside her head.
• 48:11
  But she plays all this brilliantly where she's like, I
• 48:14
  remember my past, I know who I am, why would they lie?
• 48:19
  Man, she's so angry. I've heard that type of hurt
• 48:24
  before. Really.
• 48:27
  Yeah, when people, they find out a thing that they feel they
• 48:31
  should have been told, it's just.
• 48:36
  I think I would have got, Oh no, that would be getting very
• 48:38
  personal if I found out that I was adopted.
• 48:42
  Well, my dad was a bit of a monster, so I'll be quite happy
• 48:48
  to. That's the other thing about
• 48:50
  podcasting. Sometimes very personal things
• 48:52
  come out, you know, But all all in the all in in good faith.
• 48:59
  One of the, you know, I was putting, I think, I think I only
• 49:03
  put out this episode and Fugitive to June and maybe
• 49:08
  something else, I don't know. But later I rewatched an episode
• 49:12
  of something and I had such an emotional reaction.
• 49:14
  I was like, I'm glad we didn't discuss it.
• 49:19
  Yeah, sometimes demons sort of. Punjab always gets me.
• 49:24
  It's the end where you know, where prims sort of soul goes up
• 49:28
  and I lost my mum around that time, so that episode really
• 49:32
  moved me at the time. Oh, it's been gone just over a
• 49:37
  year. Oh I'm sorry, this is such a
• 49:39
  beautiful scene. Is that the same woman that was
• 49:45
  in Fugitive of the Judoon? I think the woman in Fugitive of
• 49:48
  Judoon is South Asian. I may be wrong.
• 49:51
  Oh, that's very unobservant on my part then, isn't it?
• 49:56
  Doesn't mean I'm right, but I I, I felt, I felt like she was.
• 50:01
  That was another banger though, wouldn't it?
• 50:03
  I still remember digging up that TARDIS.
• 50:07
  But. I like this.
• 50:09
  I like the idea that there's all these operations and espionage
• 50:13
  through time and space that we know nothing about.
• 50:16
  All these adventures. Like he, they say Christianal
• 50:19
  was closing doors. He was opening doors.
• 50:24
  That's the point. And they make sense because at
• 50:26
  first I was like, why? Why isn't he leveraging the CIA
• 50:29
  or something like that? But also the things make sense.
• 50:31
  The division. I could see how they couldn't be
• 50:33
  the CIA. He, yeah, he opened up so much
• 50:36
  storytelling, and you don't have to tell those stories if you
• 50:40
  don't want to. But he did touch on it, didn't
• 50:42
  he? Because obviously the fugitive
• 50:44
  Dr. and Swarm and Azure in flux, you have all those things in
• 50:49
  Once Upon Time, which so we do, we get glimpses of it, or enough
• 50:54
  of it anyway. You know, I've just remembered
• 50:57
  she turns up at this, doesn't she?
• 50:59
  The fugitive Dr. in a great scene.
• 51:01
  I wasn't going to tell you, but yeah, I think they should have
• 51:05
  leveraged her more in this though, like anything is
• 51:09
  anything from as something as wild as her stepping out of that
• 51:12
  gateway and helping Ryan and Cole Charmis in it all sorts of
• 51:17
  way. Her being more active in the
• 51:20
  matrix because why not? There's no reason not.
• 51:24
  Do you remember? I thought.
• 51:25
  That was a incredibly wasted opportunity not to leverage her
• 51:32
  because the universe and everything is being infected in
• 51:36
  such a way 'cause I assume there's something inherent that
• 51:39
  keeps them from crossing their tracks.
• 51:41
  Not just a decision, There's something.
• 51:43
  TARDIS stores. Oh yeah, I don't.
• 51:48
  I think they're going to show you that, see.
• 51:50
  Oh, they're going to make it explicit now, aren't they?
• 51:52
  Brendan having his memory wiped and the and the dogs are having
• 51:57
  her memory wiped, Yeah. Yeah, 'cause the master was
• 52:01
  saying that he thought Tech Tectune was leaving some of this
• 52:05
  lingering stuff in her memory so that she maybe could find it as
• 52:08
  some, you know, whatever. But I love as well that the
• 52:11
  whole purpose of the flux was to root out all of the Doctors
• 52:16
  infection of the universe services for the Division on the
• 52:21
  Clock. OK.
• 52:24
  And this is the first time that the Brendan storyline and the
• 52:28
  Doctor storyline has explicitly been joined.
• 52:32
  Yes. Although when he was talking
• 52:34
  about the past, you could have gone, oh, that's kind of what we
• 52:38
  saw in the last episode, so you could get there.
• 52:41
  But I like that they made sure that you you got it for people
• 52:45
  who can make it wouldn't make that leap.
• 52:46
  That was that was good. Look at the mask.
• 52:49
  He looks broken, doesn't he? When is Leela going to come out
• 52:53
  and throw the knife out? Over Amana or even canine.
• 53:02
  That would have been so cool. Oh, did you say that line?
• 53:05
  Your adoptive mother wasn't the only person who could experiment
• 53:09
  and create a new race and income.
• 53:12
  Bom bom bom bom bom fabulous. But like, this is, I will say
• 53:23
  this for this episode, it is risky stuff, right?
• 53:26
  With a fan base like Doctor Who, where people like there to be
• 53:30
  rules and facts to kind of go, do you know what that rule book
• 53:35
  you've got? We're throwing it out.
• 53:37
  Oh boy, it's. Which is, I think, rather
• 53:42
  genius. He's changed everything and
• 53:44
  changed nothing, if that. It's brilliant how he did this.
• 53:47
  To say that before where we came in that we don't know about now,
• 53:53
  but where we came in everything is still the same.
• 53:56
  Yeah, genius. And I don't think he ever would
• 54:00
  I don't think he would rewrite Doctor Who as we know it.
• 54:03
  He. Did not you know I I both love
• 54:07
  and hate the headgear. I love it.
• 54:10
  Why do you hate it? Because it just, it's like why
• 54:14
  would they add though it like the cloak and stuff like that.
• 54:17
  But I actually think that's the master's design, which makes
• 54:22
  sense. I mean, it's a very camp, so I
• 54:25
  do approve. I mean, look at this sort of
• 54:27
  golden bling and with. When I say love and hate, I do
• 54:32
  mean the love part. Don't don't miss that part.
• 54:35
  If I was going to a convention, you know, I maybe I'd go as a
• 54:38
  cyber Lord. It had to be something Florida
• 54:41
  like that. But that's great.
• 54:43
  We just saw it regenerate. Aside man that can regenerate.
• 54:47
  It's so diabolical. And sort of mad, right?
• 54:52
  Like it's, I just, I like, I like the fact that chip was
• 54:56
  risky. Like, I know and I know the risk
• 55:00
  sort of paid off and sort of didn't, but the fact that he
• 55:03
  took the risk, I think it's riskier than what Moffett did
• 55:06
  with Day of the Doctor by insert.
• 55:08
  You know, he inserted the War Doctor in Day of the Doctor.
• 55:12
  That was that was a risk in a way that there's a Doctor we
• 55:14
  didn't know about. But here the risk is bigger, and
• 55:20
  I think the payoff for me is greater because he was.
• 55:24
  He took the chance. I I agree and I'm glad.
• 55:27
  I'm glad he did it with Moffett. You know, I need to verify this.
• 55:31
  You, you, you probably know you do you do you look into a lot of
• 55:35
  the history, my understanding that he originally wanted to
• 55:39
  use. I listen to his audios all the
• 55:43
  time. His name is not coming to me the
• 55:45
  the Doctor from the movie. Paul McCann.
• 55:50
  Thank you. Oh, he wanted to use him into.
• 55:53
  Yeah, I think he did, yeah. I love did you did you catch how
• 55:58
  they were like who's going to walk through 1st And yes just
• 56:00
  goes. I'll do it, Yeah.
• 56:03
  I would have said let's draw lots.
• 56:06
  But my understanding, you know, I, I don't know if that's just a
• 56:08
  rumor, but he wanted to do it. And the BB said, said BBC said
• 56:13
  he's not big enough to justify. And I think that, you know, I
• 56:16
  don't know how how people get attracted to things like if John
• 56:20
  Hurt was enough to make people who don't watch Doctor Who watch
• 56:22
  it. But anyone who knows anything
• 56:24
  about anything about Doctor Who, any fans even who became
• 56:29
  interested in 2005, I think they would have been excited about
• 56:32
  Paul McCann. But you know, I'm not a I'm not
• 56:35
  that exact. Maybe I'm wrong.
• 56:37
  Like I, I think Joe Martin was an incredible choice and I would
• 56:42
  have loved to have seen far more of her.
• 56:44
  We've we've talked about it, but I don't know that she wasn't a
• 56:47
  huge household name. Like she'd done some, some TV
• 56:50
  work and I'm sure she was sort of well known BBC work and
• 56:54
  things like that. But sometimes I like that as
• 56:58
  well when they choose an unknown and.
• 57:00
  Well, isn't that a big part of Doctor Who's history?
• 57:03
  That people are not like the international stars or
• 57:06
  something. Else like, oh boy, here she is.
• 57:12
  Oh, she takes the glasses off. I think they're great together
• 57:18
  as well. That all the scenes they had in
• 57:21
  the TARDIS in Fugitive. That you do.
• 57:23
  And the conflict, it was just really.
• 57:27
  Well, and when Jodie's on the back foot, she's just very witty
• 57:30
  as well. She was very funny with her.
• 57:34
  I loved when she was like, yeah, I don't kill.
• 57:36
  But why did you tell them that? Doesn't she say to the to Jodie
• 57:41
  now, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what he's
• 57:45
  telling you. What matters is who you are now
• 57:48
  and what you do right now. And that's why she gets the
• 57:51
  strength to give the Matrix a blast of the whole of Doctor Who
• 57:56
  the. Whole of Doctor Who, I thought
• 57:57
  she was also making. Hold on.
• 57:59
  Let's see, I thought she was also.
• 58:01
  She was like, what really changed?
• 58:03
  Yeah. Here we go with what you learned
• 58:04
  today. Have you ever been limited by
• 58:08
  who you were before? And speaking as somebody, I'm
• 58:14
  going to go personal again, Speaking of somebody who had a
• 58:17
  very rough upbringing, like very rough.
• 58:21
  I've never let that limit what I do now.
• 58:24
  You know, you can succumb to that stuff if you want to, or
• 58:29
  you can just go ahead and and forge a great life.
• 58:32
  I struggle. With that, I struggle with that
• 58:34
  even now. It's a good message to say
• 58:38
  though, isn't it? And I think it's a good message
• 58:39
  for children as well that are going through tough stuff, I
• 58:41
  think. I think some adults need to hear
• 58:44
  it too. Yes.
• 58:49
  Oh, I'm just seeing that series of the two of them together now
• 58:52
  watching them here on the screen.
• 58:56
  Can't we call it Doctors Who just for one season?
• 59:03
  Yeah, I was so sure I was going to see more of her in flux, so I
• 59:06
  was so disappointed. I did love.
• 59:08
  I did love. It makes it more complicated.
• 59:10
  Who knows if we didn't have the pandemic going on there, where
• 59:14
  were you going? I, well, I, I didn't think we
• 59:16
  were going to see her in power, the Doctor.
• 59:18
  So that bit where she walks in with a gun and takes down the
• 59:21
  Master and gets Jodie back in the booth.
• 59:24
  I was just going, yes, like he found a way for everyone to be
• 59:30
  in that. It's still my favorite ever.
• 59:34
  I think on the night watch. I was just screaming with joy
• 59:39
  throughout that episode. I had Tegan and Ace spoiled for
• 59:43
  me. Oh no, come on.
• 59:46
  Would you stop looking? I love.
• 59:47
  Tegan. I love Tegan.
• 59:49
  I can't remember, you know, it was and what bugged me is how it
• 59:52
  pops up in a way like I'm I'm smart enough not to click on
• 59:56
  things right, but it just pops up with the complete spoiler and
• 1:00:00
  the thing I don't follow or you know.
• 1:00:03
  I think people like having that sort of power when things go
• 1:00:06
  out, don't they? Just for that sort of window of
• 1:00:08
  time. Yeah, I'd never watched Gossip
• 1:00:12
  Girl, but there was a whole thing about somebody seen the
• 1:00:15
  reveal of who the Gossip Girl was and then going online and
• 1:00:19
  the people losing their minds. Oh, look at this.
• 1:00:25
  Now Leigh, I need you to please name every story that is being
• 1:00:29
  shown now on the screen as she gives the blast of Doctor Who.
• 1:00:32
  The brain of Morbius. The Zygons.
• 1:00:36
  I mean, it's so fast, there could be every bloody story in
• 1:00:39
  there for all we know. But, and the way the music kicks
• 1:00:43
  in as well, That and now Jodie's back in the action.
• 1:00:51
  Yeah, oh, the smoke coming out of there.
• 1:00:54
  Look, do you see? Oh, no, it's a statue.
• 1:00:55
  I thought it was a body. Hey, on the side.
• 1:01:00
  And you know what, you get in this as well.
• 1:01:02
  You get a repeat of the scene from Resurrection of the Daleks.
• 1:01:06
  In Resurrection, he goes to the TARDIS and goes, right, I'm
• 1:01:08
  going to kill Davros. She says in this.
• 1:01:10
  She takes them back to the TARDIS and she goes, right, I'm
• 1:01:13
  going to stop the Master. It's almost like beat for beat.
• 1:01:18
  And then in Resurrection of the Daleks, somebody sacrifices
• 1:01:21
  themselves, Stein. And in Timeless Children, it is
• 1:01:25
  Koh Shamas. You know, I'm waiting on the the
• 1:01:31
  the Blu-ray set to be available in the US.
• 1:01:35
  Of this. Of Peter Davison.
• 1:01:39
  O21 and yeah, yeah, yeah. Now can you please confirm
• 1:01:44
  something for me? Do they do they call it Peter
• 1:01:47
  Davidson year three or something in America or is it called
• 1:01:51
  season 21? It's called if I remember.
• 1:01:55
  It's called season 21 now, which confused me because they would
• 1:01:58
  do in that annoying season. I hated that season thing.
• 1:02:01
  It confused me. I'm used to you guys doing
• 1:02:06
  series and I would have accepted season, but match up the
• 1:02:10
  numbers, you know what I mean? And the Jodie's woken up and
• 1:02:14
  she's like, well, who the hell are all these people?
• 1:02:15
  Oh, why it's less people from the planet.
• 1:02:19
  I like how she smiled at them when she first woke up.
• 1:02:22
  I mean, she's got a lot of problems to sort out here now.
• 1:02:24
  She's got the master to sort out the Cyber Masters, obviously all
• 1:02:28
  of the Cybermen, but she's always at her best when she's on
• 1:02:36
  the back foot and she's got like 100 problems to try and solve.
• 1:02:40
  I I think so and I I like the way she shows her frustration
• 1:02:43
  with it. At the same time, I think she
• 1:02:45
  does that very well. And she goes, Do you know what I
• 1:02:49
  seem to remember in the middle of this episode, something was
• 1:02:54
  mentioned that could solve all of this?
• 1:02:56
  The death particle. Should we call it Chekhov's?
• 1:03:01
  Chekhov's death particle. Chekhov's death.
• 1:03:04
  Part Yeah, it's it's a, it's a theatrical term.
• 1:03:07
  It means if you introduce a gun, it's called Chekhov's gun.
• 1:03:09
  If you introduce a gun in Act 1, you have to fire it before the
• 1:03:12
  end of the play. If you introduce a death
• 1:03:14
  particle in Act 1, you have to set it off before the end of the
• 1:03:18
  episode. I don't know if you remember
• 1:03:22
  Lee, but in resolution you had Chekhov's Microwave.
• 1:03:27
  Yes, and they kept reminding me that I love, I love resolution.
• 1:03:32
  I know, I've told you that. Oh yeah, we may have to do that
• 1:03:35
  one day. I'd love to talk about that one.
• 1:03:40
  Oh, that ship. It's just it has come such a
• 1:03:48
  long way. What is Coach Chalmers up to
• 1:03:50
  here? Oh, they're laying bombs on the
• 1:03:54
  ship, per the Doctor's. They came up with that idea and
• 1:03:59
  the Doctor said it's good because it'll coincide with what
• 1:04:02
  she needs to do. I think something like that.
• 1:04:04
  I mean, I've got to say, right as speaking as somebody who
• 1:04:07
  really finds Gallifrey stories very boring generally, yeah.
• 1:04:11
  This I love because it's a destroyed Gallifrey, you know,
• 1:04:13
  It's very I. I well I love the big Finnish
• 1:04:18
  Gallifrey's, especially the first few seasons.
• 1:04:21
  They are a whole other level. They are the exception to the
• 1:04:25
  the role, but then that's all the ones you mentioned.
• 1:04:28
  Leila Romano. Canine.
• 1:04:29
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:04:30
  Narvin. Oh, boy.
• 1:04:32
  Braxis Hill. But I would have taken the
• 1:04:36
  chance on Chris Chipmill's vision of Gallifrey if he didn't
• 1:04:40
  destroy. It's Steven Moffat who was.
• 1:04:43
  He brought it back, but he was and it's unfair.
• 1:04:47
  I would love to interview him even though I don't know, I
• 1:04:49
  don't know how good an interview I would be, but I would love to
• 1:04:51
  interview him because he just kind of used it as a throwaway
• 1:04:56
  prop. And that's whenever he does that
• 1:04:58
  in things, that's when I get frustrated.
• 1:05:01
  And by the way, using something as a throwaway is not
• 1:05:04
  necessarily a bad idea, but it it, it felt like he did that.
• 1:05:11
  I don't know too often or. Saving Gallifrey and Day, the
• 1:05:14
  Doctor was treated as a big moment.
• 1:05:18
  And then to just have Hell Bent come along and sort of halfway
• 1:05:21
  through the episode we go, well, that's it, we're done with that.
• 1:05:24
  It was very strange. And there's so many things you
• 1:05:27
  could you imagine a Gallifrey that came back and it was like,
• 1:05:30
  we need to clear up, clean up the mess we were a part of.
• 1:05:35
  You know, that's where I was like a little sapphire and steel
• 1:05:38
  energy. And they're going around and
• 1:05:39
  cleaning up those riffs and stuff like that or.
• 1:05:42
  I'm seeing. More.
• 1:05:44
  I've seen a Big Finish series appear right now while you're
• 1:05:47
  talking. That sounds like a great pitch.
• 1:05:52
  David Richardson. All right, Lee is available for
• 1:05:54
  scripts. I had imaginations about not
• 1:06:00
  only Romana regenerating, but like the people on Gallifrey who
• 1:06:04
  love Leela and Romana, they came up with a way where when Romana
• 1:06:09
  regenerates, Leela gets a regeneration and she doesn't
• 1:06:13
  look like a totally different person, she looks like a younger
• 1:06:15
  version of herself. Look.
• 1:06:17
  This is so. Shit exploding.
• 1:06:23
  I mean, the production value on this thing.
• 1:06:25
  There was just a brilliant tracking shot as somebody was,
• 1:06:29
  as the kid was running. Oh boy, look the old TARDIS.
• 1:06:34
  I love all these variations on classic TARDIS looks.
• 1:06:37
  I love them. Yeah, oh, the old console.
• 1:06:41
  Oh, it makes my heartbeat faster.
• 1:06:45
  I think that's what I liked about.
• 1:06:46
  Which one is it? Heaven sent Wait.
• 1:06:50
  Help him. Yeah, yeah, that was a beautiful
• 1:06:54
  console room. Well, and I love as well that
• 1:06:57
  this TARDIS goes with them to Earth and Yas is living there,
• 1:07:01
  isn't she in Revolution of the Daleks with all the post?
• 1:07:04
  Its all over the wall. How to get him back?
• 1:07:06
  The seeds are being set there for just sort of how obsessed
• 1:07:10
  she is about the Doctor. Yeah.
• 1:07:16
  I'm going to use the deaf particle to destroy Gallifrey
• 1:07:18
  Lee. I don't want you to stop me.
• 1:07:21
  Yeah, I don't think I could stop you.
• 1:07:24
  You were planning that from Episode 1?
• 1:07:28
  Yes. And do you know what?
• 1:07:29
  I'm the only person that watched day at the Doctor and when
• 1:07:33
  Gallifrey was brought back, I was going no, no, what are you
• 1:07:35
  doing? And then at the end of this,
• 1:07:37
  when it was wiped clean by the, I was going, yes.
• 1:07:43
  You know, we have no way to prove this, but I think you
• 1:07:47
  could have been made to love Gallifrey.
• 1:07:50
  But it would have Robert Holmes told a great story, but I still
• 1:07:56
  say it was a mistake. He made them pedantic.
• 1:08:01
  I think having them be a bit of the scary gods with some of the
• 1:08:05
  politics would have made sense. Having things like division, you
• 1:08:10
  know what I mean? Like This is why Chip know
• 1:08:12
  wiping them out is hilarious to be because I think he had a
• 1:08:15
  really interesting vision. Love Gallifrey.
• 1:08:18
  Well, I mean, you could have had, you know how we had the
• 1:08:20
  sidemen sort of desperate this and on the on the edge and and
• 1:08:24
  and doing terrifying things. What about that?
• 1:08:27
  What about the? I know you don't want to miss
• 1:08:29
  this Yas trying to pull her back this.
• 1:08:31
  I'm sorry if if I'm wrong about that but.
• 1:08:33
  Now look. Look how she's got tears in her
• 1:08:35
  eyes now, and she knows Yas knows she's going to die as
• 1:08:39
  well. And the grabs and Ryan just
• 1:08:44
  getting and being like it's not even worth fighting this.
• 1:08:51
  Now look, someone said to me the other day that Jodie Whisker's
• 1:08:54
  time makes them feel like Peter Davidson's time.
• 1:08:56
  Look how many people there are in the console room right now.
• 1:08:59
  Very Peter Davidson era. Crowded TARDIS and very William
• 1:09:03
  Hart now. Oh, Jodie.
• 1:09:05
  She's off to make the ultimate sacrifice unless there's
• 1:09:08
  somebody at the end of their life.
• 1:09:12
  It's never happened before. I don't know, Joe.
• 1:09:14
  I don't know. I've never seen that happen
• 1:09:16
  before. I'm an old man, Lee.
• 1:09:18
  Please, you've got more life to live than me.
• 1:09:21
  Please let me sacrifice myself for you as opposed to.
• 1:09:28
  These old men making young people sacrifice themselves for
• 1:09:31
  them. This scene is phenomenal with
• 1:09:37
  the it's Jodie and Sasha. Like, I watched them all day,
• 1:09:43
  you know, I forgot it. You know that that those rings
• 1:09:45
  above, I didn't comment it on. It's just so many aesthetics.
• 1:09:49
  Oh my God, do you see in the background there that sort of
• 1:09:54
  green plastic walls? It is literally the the walls
• 1:09:58
  from the Deadly Assassin. The attention to do so is you're
• 1:10:02
  right. You're right, you're right.
• 1:10:05
  The production team on this is not playing around.
• 1:10:08
  You can do fan wank, you know, We're watching out for this
• 1:10:10
  stuff, all right? We are.
• 1:10:12
  We're big dogs. Fan wank with style, you know
• 1:10:18
  what I mean? Yeah.
• 1:10:20
  Buckets of style. Come on, Jody, pull out your
• 1:10:25
  deaf particle. I mean, it's quite it's a
• 1:10:31
  terrifying vision. The Master with an entire army
• 1:10:34
  of regenerating Cybermen ready to go out into the universe.
• 1:10:41
  Bless him. How do you remember, Lady?
• 1:10:43
  Remembering the power of the Doctor when he starts dancing to
• 1:10:46
  Rasputin and the Dalek and the Simon.
• 1:10:51
  What the hell is he doing? You know, we just, they just had
• 1:10:56
  this scene where he just like pulled away from her.
• 1:10:57
  Like he's a little scared. I don't know if you noticed that
• 1:10:59
  he keeps doing stuff in his scenes.
• 1:11:04
  I don't like like very often in Doctor Who I'm drawn to 1 actor,
• 1:11:09
  but with these two I'm just riveted by both of them.
• 1:11:13
  I don't know if synergy is the right word or what.
• 1:11:16
  There's just a. Look what she's saying now.
• 1:11:19
  I'm not going to be scared of the past.
• 1:11:21
  You've just proven to me there's more to me than even I thought.
• 1:11:26
  The Doctor is bigger on the inside.
• 1:11:28
  He just can't win, can he, No matter what he tries to do to
• 1:11:32
  her. What?
• 1:11:33
  But look, look, look at this reaction.
• 1:11:34
  He just like, OK, whatever. I thought he was going to rage.
• 1:11:41
  So why are we here? And then she just pulls it out.
• 1:11:46
  Oh look, it's got the little washouts.
• 1:11:48
  Side bomb too with a side on it. I don't, I don't.
• 1:11:52
  Is that available? I should get that.
• 1:11:55
  It should be. I said come on, come on, doctor,
• 1:12:01
  you could take them all out in one swoop.
• 1:12:06
  Oh, no, wait. Then we wouldn't get the flux
• 1:12:07
  season. No way.
• 1:12:10
  I get a little conflicted about a master that just seems bonkers
• 1:12:15
  sometimes, You know, it been he's, he's amazing.
• 1:12:22
  We don't. You don't really see him have
• 1:12:23
  any downtime, do you? That's the thing.
• 1:12:25
  He's always doing some mad scheme with missing you.
• 1:12:29
  There was a lot more time with her not being mental.
• 1:12:34
  There's the intensity though, where he's going.
• 1:12:36
  Come on, come on. He wants to die.
• 1:12:39
  He hates himself. He wants to die.
• 1:12:43
  It, it, it. Yes, yes, yeah.
• 1:12:45
  And I could feel like spit is getting on our hands as he's
• 1:12:48
  talking because he's just so. Oh, that's a great like you've
• 1:12:53
  made me but I've destroyed you become deaf.
• 1:12:57
  I mean, they're going for the epic era.
• 1:13:03
  It's a bit like when tenant at the gun in the end of Time, but
• 1:13:05
  I think this is better. I agree.
• 1:13:11
  And then if I say that. As somebody who loves Tennant,
• 1:13:13
  yeah, but I agree. Of course, she was never going
• 1:13:16
  to press up on She's the Doctor. If it were hard, no.
• 1:13:21
  He might need a wet his pants. The universe will suffer for
• 1:13:27
  your weakness. Oh, just what we all need in our
• 1:13:30
  lives. A Co Sharmas to come in at the
• 1:13:32
  11th hour. Oh, please say the line.
• 1:13:38
  I'm an old man. I've reached the end of my life.
• 1:13:44
  That's it. Come on, Doctor Rum.
• 1:13:46
  Actually, wait. How did the pastor get away
• 1:13:48
  then? Welcome to Doctor Who.
• 1:13:54
  He always gets away. There are times I'm like, I want
• 1:13:59
  to call BDS, but I'm so glad he's back.
• 1:14:02
  What's the line, Anthony? Amy has.
• 1:14:04
  I'm indestructible. The whole universe knows that.
• 1:14:07
  OK, fine, that'll do. Oh, is.
• 1:14:10
  That from not survivor is it? I think it's Mark of the Ronnie,
• 1:14:15
  that 10 Mark of the Ronnie. Yeah.
• 1:14:16
  But after he got in a while, he got burnt to death in Planet of
• 1:14:19
  Fire. And so he goes.
• 1:14:20
  Well, how did you get out of that?
• 1:14:25
  Oh, look at Coach Armis now. You're still feeling confident.
• 1:14:29
  Let's just assume he transported out.
• 1:14:37
  Missy teleported when she was zapped, so you know.
• 1:14:40
  Oh no, because this has just been shot dead and still presses
• 1:14:45
  the button. Watch this special effects shot.
• 1:14:48
  Boom. Now please, Lee, promise me, is
• 1:14:55
  that the end of Gallifrey? Well, since I'm never going to
• 1:15:00
  be a writer or a showrunner, yes, it's the end of Gala.
• 1:15:05
  Hey, you never know. You know, we had Russell D Davis
• 1:15:09
  back and no one thought that was going to happen.
• 1:15:14
  I really want to know what happened there with Russell D
• 1:15:17
  Davis. There's so many things and I
• 1:15:20
  wish he had done the writers room idea.
• 1:15:22
  I've heard enough behind the scenes to know it was tricky.
• 1:15:26
  There was a lot of stuff happening that they probably
• 1:15:30
  would never want to see the light.
• 1:15:31
  I I want to know what happens to Ravio and why she wasn't in
• 1:15:35
  Revolution of the Daleks. Ravio and and the and the other
• 1:15:40
  two, really the kid. I think The Kid is the Kid and
• 1:15:44
  Ravio are the most compelling. Now where is she now?
• 1:15:48
  Is this still Gallifrey but totally destroyed?
• 1:15:50
  This is the planet where they first met the survivors of the
• 1:15:53
  Cybermen assault. Oh, of course, Yes, of course,
• 1:15:57
  yes. And that and that other TARDIS
• 1:15:59
  has now has just become a tree. Yes, this is a really.
• 1:16:04
  Smart since I watched this just before you.
• 1:16:07
  Yeah, I only watched it earlier today and I've forgotten half
• 1:16:10
  the details. She now she just has a moment,
• 1:16:14
  doesn't she, where she sort of leans on the console.
• 1:16:18
  Doesn't she feel like you could feel how tired she is?
• 1:16:23
  Nothing. Just like it just pauses for a
• 1:16:26
  second after all of that pace, I say.
• 1:16:29
  And look, she ain't scared of the camera either.
• 1:16:33
  Oh, it comes that you do. I hate that anybody that no one
• 1:16:40
  could get in the TARDIS until they can.
• 1:16:43
  It happens quite a lot in the new series now, doesn't it?
• 1:16:46
  Even advertisements and also. Oh my God, she's stuck on
• 1:16:51
  shutter. I wonder, you know, they did.
• 1:16:54
  It's not Shada, is it? But it made me, it made me think
• 1:16:57
  of that. Something about this window
• 1:16:58
  design or something. And the rocks, Yeah.
• 1:17:00
  Yeah, it oh boy, it does look very like it.
• 1:17:03
  But what I really, really like is in Revolution of the Dykes,
• 1:17:08
  which I did recently with another new contributor,
• 1:17:11
  actually Luke Collins, who wrote one of the Big Finish 13th talk
• 1:17:13
  to us. Is that she's there long enough?
• 1:17:18
  I think she's there for a good number of years.
• 1:17:20
  Isn't she on that prison for her to sort of ingest all of the
• 1:17:25
  information that she's learned in this episode?
• 1:17:29
  And so I feel like then Chipnall sort of has his cake and eats it
• 1:17:33
  in that we don't have to go for all the therapy and stuff
• 1:17:36
  because she's been thinking about it for years and years.
• 1:17:38
  And then she just decides, you know what?
• 1:17:40
  I get all my bloody life. You know, and I did hear that
• 1:17:44
  one because I, I listen to your pod, you know, to kind of break
• 1:17:50
  up certain things I'm doing at the time.
• 1:17:52
  And so it works perfectly. But I did hear that one when you
• 1:17:55
  wrote when you said that I was like, Oh, can I?
• 1:17:58
  So I don't know how much time we have, so I'll just.
• 1:18:02
  I'll be quick. About this So I love this
• 1:18:06
  series. I love what Chris Chibnall did.
• 1:18:09
  This is going to sound silly. I don't like that he did not
• 1:18:13
  leave room for her to have a longer life and big finish with
• 1:18:21
  other companions. Right, Well, it's going to be
• 1:18:25
  with Yas, right? Because Yas is always there.
• 1:18:29
  Yeah, yeah, and unless they recast Ryan and and and Graham,
• 1:18:32
  which I'm I'm not against, so I think it would be some people
• 1:18:35
  would think it's too soon. I don't like it that tight.
• 1:18:38
  I don't like how big Finnish struggled with Peter Davidson
• 1:18:41
  with that. It it you know, it's such a, it
• 1:18:43
  may sound strange, even though it's not that hard, you know,
• 1:18:46
  drop Nyssa off at a planet to settle, study some medical
• 1:18:49
  program and he can travel around and just come back occasionally
• 1:18:52
  and then get her before he picks up Tegan.
• 1:18:55
  It's not rocket science. What does he say in the two
• 1:18:57
  doctors? Why Victoria wanted to study
• 1:19:00
  graphology, I have no idea, but we'll pick her up at the end,
• 1:19:03
  you know? With Davison, that could
• 1:19:06
  actually work. It can actually make sense.
• 1:19:08
  So it's a silly little thing. I love her with Manda.
• 1:19:12
  But you know what? Both of us being big Finnish
• 1:19:14
  listeners, there's a point where you can have a bit of fatigue if
• 1:19:18
  you don't have someone else for them to travel with for a while,
• 1:19:22
  like Louise Jameson is. He's amazing all the time.
• 1:19:28
  Like I don't like River Song right, but I would love to see
• 1:19:31
  the River Song 13th Doctor story.
• 1:19:35
  I me too, me too though she has a box set that I think you would
• 1:19:40
  love if you didn't hear it. Like when she's travelling in
• 1:19:43
  time in one household. Oh, I've heard about this one.
• 1:19:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're covering it, only
• 1:19:48
  I'll get there eventually. Yeah, you are.
• 1:19:50
  We're still way back in the misty.
• 1:19:52
  Dawn's a big finish at the moment.
• 1:19:55
  Listen, can I, can I say something before I forget?
• 1:19:57
  Yeah. Good.
• 1:19:59
  Thank you. I'm going to tell you something.
• 1:20:03
  And you, you are not allowed to make fun of me.
• 1:20:06
  So. OK, I'll try I.
• 1:20:07
  Told you I've been, you know, I've read your blogs, I've even
• 1:20:11
  written you on your blog. You would never be able to find
• 1:20:13
  me. I wrote you anonymous.
• 1:20:16
  And then I started listening to it and there were times I
• 1:20:19
  thought, how cool would it be to be on his podcast and discuss
• 1:20:26
  Doctor Who or one of the Big Finish shows or any of the other
• 1:20:30
  projects that you you talk about?
• 1:20:32
  So I think I'd listen to something and I wanted to give
• 1:20:37
  you feedback. And I was like, oh, but I'm not
• 1:20:40
  on all any of the systems he's on.
• 1:20:41
  And I was like, he's on Blue sky.
• 1:20:43
  Let me join Blue sky that you're, you're literally one of
• 1:20:47
  the reason that triggered that, right?
• 1:20:49
  And then I give you a few comments, which I I guess must
• 1:20:54
  have sounded thoughtful enough. And I was like, and you reached
• 1:20:58
  out and asked me if I was curious.
• 1:21:01
  And that was so cool. And here I am talking about one
• 1:21:06
  of my favorite doctors in a two-part story that I love.
• 1:21:13
  And that's, that's, that's kind of awesome.
• 1:21:18
  I I love that we got to do this. I mean, you didn't have to say
• 1:21:21
  thank you. The big smile on your face says
• 1:21:23
  it. Oh, although there is still
• 1:21:26
  something I have to do with you. Don't be scared now.
• 1:21:30
  All right, I don't know how far into these episodes you get, but
• 1:21:33
  at the end we list the three fabulous things to recommend.
• 1:21:43
  Now, you've just watched those. You've just watched it, so
• 1:21:48
  you're going to have to pull them out of your ass.
• 1:21:50
  OK. Would you like me to go first?
• 1:21:57
  What do you do? You prefer?
• 1:21:58
  I go for it. It is your show.
• 1:22:00
  I'll try to work it out. If you you give me the, you give
• 1:22:03
  me the direction. OK, well, I'll tell you what.
• 1:22:04
  We'll do it one a piece. You and then me and then you and
• 1:22:07
  then me. All right.
• 1:22:10
  OK, so. Oh, all right.
• 1:22:19
  So, so, so, so it. It's such a cheat, but Sasha
• 1:22:28
  Dhawan. Sasha Dhawan.
• 1:22:31
  That's not a cheat, that's a great one.
• 1:22:33
  Well meaning like it's it's almost I would say it's almost
• 1:22:36
  obvious, right, like it's so obvious, but he is such an
• 1:22:39
  incredible performance. He really just he he just really
• 1:22:45
  takes advantage of the script in the direction he gives us such a
• 1:22:48
  wonderful performance. You know, I tell you I'm a
• 1:22:51
  little funny about the mad masters, but it's like one of
• 1:22:56
  the best I've I've I've ever seen.
• 1:22:58
  I'm so glad he's in here. I'm so glad that we get him to
• 1:23:01
  come back. So I would say Sasha Dewan is is
• 1:23:05
  is one of of my 3. Chef's kiss on that one.
• 1:23:09
  I'm going to save my first one, the direction of Jamie Magna
• 1:23:13
  Stone. You know, he had a look and he
• 1:23:16
  does both of them. And I just, there's so much
• 1:23:19
  action in these and there's so many moments of suspense and
• 1:23:24
  there's a lot of moments where he really has to frame
• 1:23:28
  impressively epic visual effect shots with people in them and
• 1:23:34
  things. And I just don't think he's
• 1:23:36
  afraid of any of it. Like he's like, I'm going to
• 1:23:38
  make this as big and as impressive and as dynamic as it
• 1:23:42
  can possibly be. And like, I think his work in
• 1:23:46
  flux and on Power of the Doctor, it just gets better and better
• 1:23:50
  and better. But you know, I mean, how many
• 1:23:53
  times he'll we go and look at that, Oh my God, look at that
• 1:23:56
  special effect. Look at that action set piece.
• 1:23:59
  I, I think you only have to go back and look at Chris's
• 1:24:02
  breakfast in the season, which is a great year, but how
• 1:24:05
  primitive the production values are compared to this stuff to
• 1:24:10
  see how far Doctor Who came in 20 years.
• 1:24:13
  So I think just on a, on a visual level, I think this is
• 1:24:16
  incredible. That's my first one.
• 1:24:19
  Well, I, I feel like I can't say production because I think
• 1:24:23
  you're you're encapsulated that very well.
• 1:24:25
  The the production values are incredible.
• 1:24:27
  So I know some fans have gone to the movie theaters to see Doctor
• 1:24:31
  Who episodes, either finales and so forth.
• 1:24:33
  This is one that I think would blow any of the ones I've heard
• 1:24:38
  of away being shown in the proper big screen movie theater.
• 1:24:44
  It's just, it's just that level, the design of the Cybermen, the
• 1:24:49
  the, the intricacy of the Time Lord Cybermen, that ship landing
• 1:24:55
  on Gallifrey, it's there was see, I, I really am saying the
• 1:25:00
  same thing you are, but I. Know, but it's worth repeating.
• 1:25:03
  It is worth it. It's sumptuous.
• 1:25:07
  Sumptuous. Sumptuous.
• 1:25:09
  It's just so sumptuous. I was so, so satisfied with
• 1:25:14
  that, on top of having a really fantastic story and an amazing
• 1:25:19
  cast. So that's my #2.
• 1:25:22
  My #2 then is going to be one more time.
• 1:25:27
  Are you ready for this? That should have been.
• 1:25:33
  My number. One man.
• 1:25:35
  Oh my word, you're right as well.
• 1:25:38
  He did an amazing score for the Sidemen, for the Daleks, and for
• 1:25:42
  the Sontarans as well. In flux, he was a force to be
• 1:25:47
  reckoned with. A total new sweep after Murray
• 1:25:51
  Gold. And I think we needed a new
• 1:25:53
  musical palette after all of those years of Murray Gold.
• 1:25:57
  And you're right, Murray did great work, but it absolutely it
• 1:26:00
  could rather instruct you how to feel at times.
• 1:26:06
  Whereas I just feel like second start, he usually starts most of
• 1:26:10
  his tracks quietly and builds and builds and builds and builds
• 1:26:14
  are built until you're just in furious pace with the music.
• 1:26:17
  But that that Cyberman theme is every bit as good as the the
• 1:26:22
  Revenge 1 you talked about. I recently talked about the
• 1:26:25
  Earth Shock 1, you know, yeah, just amazing music.
• 1:26:33
  And I know that's two production things I've gone for there, but
• 1:26:37
  I am saving a writing thing for my third.
• 1:26:40
  But anyway, back to you. Oh, a writing thing.
• 1:26:43
  OK, So you will not be surprised that I want to say Jodie
• 1:26:54
  Whittaker, right? So I'm not going to do it.
• 1:26:59
  No, it's just like I, I, I'm not here to sell anybody on that.
• 1:27:05
  If I ever get a, a chance to, to, to, to let me rephrase that.
• 1:27:08
  There's a there's a given an opportunity to do this again
• 1:27:13
  with the Jordy Widaker episode. I will take that opportunity to
• 1:27:17
  bring it up. Of course, this is a really good
• 1:27:21
  story to be doing that on. How are the doctors?
• 1:27:23
  A really good one. But I actually think she has
• 1:27:25
  quite a few stories where you can fuse how how amazing she is.
• 1:27:33
  But for me, I'm going to go with this, it's it's Chris Chibnall.
• 1:27:38
  He's juggling the most insane levels of balls in the air.
• 1:27:45
  I'm very proud of you. I'm very proud of you.
• 1:27:47
  I'm very proud of you, Joe, and I'm.
• 1:27:50
  Still loving while there are. Things, while there are things I
• 1:27:54
  wish he had, you know, gone into more, I think he just did such a
• 1:28:00
  good job with it. He made you care about most of
• 1:28:04
  the background characters, which is a heavy lift, especially
• 1:28:09
  after being starved for that through most of the Steven
• 1:28:13
  Moffett run. I was really starved for that.
• 1:28:16
  I the conversation between Yaz and and Graham, you know, giving
• 1:28:24
  us that like, is it a call back? You would say something as silly
• 1:28:28
  as the basketball throw from the opening season.
• 1:28:33
  It's such, it's so, it's so good.
• 1:28:36
  Wonderful opportunities for these actors to give us
• 1:28:40
  something. I do believe he underserved Ryan
• 1:28:43
  in this one, but to be fair that we all have episodes where we
• 1:28:46
  see one of the leads underserved.
• 1:28:49
  Though I don't really remember Bradley Walsh ever being totally
• 1:28:54
  underserved. It's because you can't help but
• 1:28:56
  look at him, even if he is underserved.
• 1:28:59
  That's exactly it. So I'm going to give it a Chris
• 1:29:03
  Chibno. He, he made, he rejuvenated me
• 1:29:07
  with Doctor Who, even though to be fair, Steven Moffat looks
• 1:29:10
  like he was on the road to do that.
• 1:29:12
  But he rejuvenated with me with Doctor Who.
• 1:29:15
  He created a Doctor Who that I feel like you, me and everyone
• 1:29:20
  we pass in the street, everyone around the world, we're in this
• 1:29:25
  universe. We could travel with the Doctor
• 1:29:28
  and for the most part we'd be safe and, and having fun.
• 1:29:34
  And I, I love that. And I think this is an evolution
• 1:29:39
  for him because I've gotten to see some other stuff he's done.
• 1:29:42
  I don't think this Chris Chibnall is the same one who did
• 1:29:46
  Broadchurch or Merlin or things like that.
• 1:29:49
  There's a way that he's incorporated thing, So it's
• 1:29:52
  Chris Chibnall. He created a Doctor Who where I
• 1:29:55
  feel like none of us is left behind and the TARDIS has room
• 1:29:59
  for us all. He he came in with the strap
• 1:30:03
  line space for all. And I just think that's that is
• 1:30:07
  what you're. Saying is that really Is that?
• 1:30:09
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've got the the season 12
• 1:30:11
  Blu-ray and that is literally on the cover of the Blu-ray.
• 1:30:14
  It just has space for all. So what you're saying there is
• 1:30:19
  absolutely. That was his mission statement.
• 1:30:21
  But not just on screen, off the screen as well.
• 1:30:25
  During Chris Chibnall's time, there are a huge number of
• 1:30:29
  episodes written by women, which just wasn't happening before
• 1:30:32
  this, directed by women that, you know, a couple.
• 1:30:36
  Haunting of Village Adarti is written and directed by women.
• 1:30:39
  Rosa is written and directed by women.
• 1:30:41
  They're fucking bangers. Why are women not given these
• 1:30:44
  opportunities more You know, he brought in a large number of
• 1:30:49
  ethnic actors or to on the scale that we just hadn't seen before
• 1:30:54
  and. Writers.
• 1:30:55
  And writers and directors, again, you know, it's, it's to
• 1:31:00
  his credit that that he made it as diverse as it was.
• 1:31:05
  And interestingly, when we head back into RTD two, it becomes a
• 1:31:10
  bit of a whitewash again if you look at how other writers and
• 1:31:13
  the directors there. But anyway, that's for another
• 1:31:15
  day. My last thing is it is a Chris
• 1:31:20
  Chipnall thing again, but it is, it's the timeless children
• 1:31:24
  thing. I, I think I've always liked it.
• 1:31:27
  I I really think it's impressive now for how ballsy it is.
• 1:31:34
  I know I'm talking about Shiffles balls as well, but fuck
• 1:31:37
  me, they were as big as they've ever been in this one and how he
• 1:31:43
  integrated it into the season with the spy full with the
• 1:31:48
  master saying you're going to learn things this year.
• 1:31:51
  That and then in fugitive of the Doctor where we get this amazing
• 1:31:57
  twist of like, who the fuck is this person saying that they're
• 1:32:00
  the doctor? Who is this?
• 1:32:01
  We don't recognize this person. It's someone in the future.
• 1:32:04
  Is it someone from the past and then in ascension of the
• 1:32:07
  Cybermen to tell the story of the Doctor's past before an
• 1:32:13
  unearthly child. But to do it kind of in
• 1:32:17
  metaphor, in a, in a very obscure way where we don't even
• 1:32:21
  really know what we're being told until the Timeless
• 1:32:23
  Children, it's such a sophisticated way to integrate
• 1:32:27
  it into the season. And then in the next season,
• 1:32:32
  she's literally going after the division from the Halloween
• 1:32:35
  apocalypse onwards. So it, it informs the rest or
• 1:32:39
  certainly the next 6 episodes after this.
• 1:32:41
  I, I think it wasn't for everybody.
• 1:32:44
  I understand why it wasn't for everybody because I understand
• 1:32:49
  the fan. My mindset of Doctor Who is
• 1:32:51
  this, this is my vision of the show.
• 1:32:54
  This is what it's always been. And you have just made it all
• 1:32:57
  fall down like a House of Cards. And some people, you know, like
• 1:33:02
  they, they take a lot of safety and security in things being how
• 1:33:06
  they are. But unfortunately, you don't get
• 1:33:09
  to be a show that lasts 60 years.
• 1:33:11
  By by staying the same right and.
• 1:33:14
  Keeping it safe, Doctor Who is a show that's all always sort of
• 1:33:17
  morphed along and bringing in that adoption storyline, putting
• 1:33:22
  The Who question mark back into Doctor Who.
• 1:33:25
  I think it was a great move how well that was executed overall
• 1:33:33
  because she does just throw the watch away.
• 1:33:35
  So it's like we we're promised a lot and then we're delivered not
• 1:33:40
  a lot. I don't know.
• 1:33:43
  But I just think how we did it in Series 12 and I think it's
• 1:33:47
  it's ratted on a lot. I think it's really
• 1:33:50
  sophisticated. I think it's really interesting
• 1:33:54
  and I think it's a new direction for the show that opens up
• 1:33:58
  possibilities. So I have no issues at all.
• 1:34:05
  You knew I was going to agree. You would need to pick something
• 1:34:12
  else for me to give you like a really hard time or something
• 1:34:15
  like that. But no, I'm, I'm, I'm totally on
• 1:34:17
  board. I think that's an incredible
• 1:34:21
  assessment of the Timeless children, and now I hope that
• 1:34:24
  once the shock wears off for some people, they might.
• 1:34:27
  See a little different when I did the series 13.
• 1:34:32
  Sorry, the 13th Doctor is strictly the amount of people in
• 1:34:35
  the comments that I got saying I've gone back and watched this
• 1:34:39
  whole era of Doctor Who and my opinion now it's not the be all
• 1:34:43
  and end all now. It's not the Doctor Who that has
• 1:34:45
  to survive. And it is just a few series of
• 1:34:48
  they're going back and seeing all of the gems that are there.
• 1:34:51
  Sometimes you just need a little time, don't you?
• 1:34:54
  You. Do you?
• 1:34:55
  Do you do? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:34:58
  Yeah, although sadly our time is is now over.
• 1:35:03
  But what I'm going to say is thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:35:07
  It has been a wonderful, wonderful experience.
• 1:35:11
  Now I've got you on a promise, I think to come back and do
• 1:35:15
  another one. I'm assuming I'm not assuming
• 1:35:18
  there. Not assuming I really enjoyed
• 1:35:22
  it, I'd be glad to talk about anything you wanted to talk
• 1:35:25
  about. Well, we'll, we'll have a
• 1:35:27
  discussion about that off Mike, but can I ask you a quick favour
• 1:35:32
  should people wish to seek you out online on Blue Sky or, or
• 1:35:37
  wherever? What?
• 1:35:37
  What's your handle? Whereabouts are you?
• 1:35:41
  So I am on blue Sky as the future is for everyone and the
• 1:35:51
  four is a #4 if people wanted to reach out and see what's there.
• 1:35:55
  But you know, I have to say in advance, I'm pretty new to blue
• 1:35:59
  sky. I am not a person who puts out
• 1:36:01
  content or anything. This may be the only content
• 1:36:06
  that people see from me. But but, but feel free to say
• 1:36:10
  hello or, or, or to check me out there.
• 1:36:13
  And you, you know, that's, that's it.
• 1:36:15
  You, you said to me about reaching out.
• 1:36:18
  I was just seeing a lot of really interesting, intelligent
• 1:36:23
  comments and I was like, man, this guy's got something to say,
• 1:36:27
  you know, I've got game talking. Like a broken clock.
• 1:36:33
  So all those, those ten other hours, I'm nothing but an idiot.
• 1:36:38
  But maybe twice a day I have something to say.
• 1:36:41
  And I'm trying to put some of that on blue sky.
• 1:36:45
  And I'm, I'm enjoying the journey.
• 1:36:46
  Yeah, Yeah. Late Thank you very much for
• 1:36:49
  your time tonight. It has been an absolute
• 1:36:51
  pleasure. Same here.
• 1:36:54
  Same here, but as you said, you could see it on my face.
• 1:36:58
  So yes, it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:37:01
  I, I love your, your pods and you have some great guests and I
• 1:37:05
  appreciate the insight and getting to talk about this.
• 1:37:08
  What a great way to spend a Sunday afternoon.
• 1:37:11
  And you guys can't see this, but it's got a lovely smile.
• 1:37:14
  It's been all over his face for the last 2 1/2 hours.