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Like, Seriously? Lindsay Clancy Trial (Part 2) · Dead Serious

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, and welcome back to Dead Serious.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is a like seriously episode.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: The part of Dead Serious where I talk about the wildest things happening in true crime.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Documentaries, trials, books, really anything.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, basically the ones that leave you with that nagging question.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, seriously?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: How can this be happening?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna continue on with the Lindsay Clancy trial.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to condense it.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to make it, you know, middle, not real light, not real heavy.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Tons of people are covering this.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh not every day did something interesting even happen, honestly.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: To me, there's been a lot of repetitive testimony, and I thought there was something about that being blocked from happening, but I don't know, maybe not.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of breaks this judge calls for, I'm not sure I've really seen a judge do this before anywhere else.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, no wonder this trial is going to take six to eight weeks.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's the breaks.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so week two was basically the third through the seventh, and that was, you know, close with Patrick's testimony, 911 calls, and then the jury got to go on their little field trip, check the house out, the CVS, and the restaurant.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now week three shifted more kind of into her interior life and started with her diary, which was being read aloud in court.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, probably one of everyone's worst nightmares, who, you know, who wants to share that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: She wrote about feeling anxious and overwhelmed, struggling to get Callan to sleep, worrying constantly that he was sick, dreading a return to work as a labor and delivery nurse, being able to breastfeed, sorry, being unable to breastfeed, and feeling disconnected from her children and her husband.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: One entry described brain fog and a desperation for relief so acute that she suspected her mind was inventing physical illness to earn her a break.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: We had some clinical testimony.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: A forensic psychologist that had evaluated her in the hospital two days later said that when asked how she felt, she answered horrified, then asked whether she had a lawyer and whether her legs were broken.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Another psychiatrist described her as calm and cooperative in that period, a characterization the prosecution will lean on.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is interesting that this woman kills her kids, you know, goes to the hospital once, you know, she's you know, out of that fog or whatever, and asked how she's doing, it's like, oh, do I have an attorney to represent me?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: My leg's broke, not, hey, how are my children?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that, I mean, something to pay attention to.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: The hardest day was probably when medical examiners testified about Callen's autopsy.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Callen's injuries were consistent with ligature strangulation, and his cause of death was complications of mechanical asphyxia.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Clancy covered her face and sobbed.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: The judge called multiple recesses, shocking, not really.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And Clancy also spoke aloud for the first time in the trial, answering the judge's questions on a legal matter.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as far as her sobbing, we don't know.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is she really sobbing?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do we see tears?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, her hair is covering her face, so I don't know.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're into the week of this past week, the 10th through 13th, and the defense kind of has pivoted from her mind, you know, Lindsay's mind, to now we're gonna talk to the doctors, which is kind of what we've all been waiting for anyway.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Jennifer Tufts, the psychiatrist who treated Lindsay by telehealth from September 2022 from September 2022, was cross-examined Monday for several hours.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin Reddington's line of attack was inexperience.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Tufts had begun practicing at the firm in August of 2022, roughly a month before taking LANCon.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when asked how many postpartum women she had treated there, answered, maybe a couple, which this isn't fully true.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like she just started working and then the next day she got Clancy.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think he was going a little too far there.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: She testified that a promising IV treatment for postpartum depression was unavailable to her because the facility offering it was in Rhode Island.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Reddington pressed on her final 17-minute appointment with Clancy the day before the killings.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Clancy had reported feeling numb, and Tufts had not contacted her family.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, this is a grown-ass woman, not a child.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Did you call her parents?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, dumbass, I did not.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Reddington asked whether that pushed her over the edge.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Tufts said she did not think so.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: The exchange over her own notes was the sharpest moment.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Confronted with a record reading, pressured speech, a possible sign of mania, Tufts responded, I don't care what it says, I know what I meant.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: She testified that she does not believe she was negligent.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Clancy is separately suing Tufts and the other practitioners in civil court.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: We had two psychiatric nurses who also testified.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: The first, Julie Paul, referred to Clancy by her then mother-in-law, said an initial screening in November of 2022 recorded no suicidal or homicidal audiation, no hallucinations, and no delusions.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: The second psychiatric nurse practitioner, Rebecca Gelata, testified that Clancy sought changes to her medication plan nearly every day, reporting intrusive thoughts, insomnia, and numbness, and worry about becoming dependent on benzodiazepines.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the defense wanted to add Emily Thorndike, a licensed clinical social worker who worked at McLean Hospital from 2014 to 2021, but not while Clancy was a patient.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: The problem with that is Thorndike has publicly posted on TikTok objecting to how favorably McLean had been described during Patrick Clancy's cross-examination.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Reddington moved at her as a witness on hospital staffing over the holidays.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Prosecutors objected that she had watched the trial, which witnesses are barred from doing, and Thorndike had publicly called the prosecution an abomination.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Judge William Sullivan took it under advisement and suggested the defense find someone whose employment actually overlapped with Clancy's stay.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, his comment about the hospital quality debate, this is not trip advisor.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Funny, I like it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Testimony continues with the prosecution drawing closer to resting its case.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: A state police trooper has testified about a prosecution theory that a doctor told Clancy to tell her husband she had heard voices, which this is interesting.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll come back to that.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Two things worth noting.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Jurors have heard that Clancy struggled with anxiety and depression, and that doctors weighed whether she had bipolar disorder, but no witness has yet testified to a diagnosis of psychosis.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: That gap right there, huge.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: The defense needs the jury to accept a condition no treating clinician documented at the time.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Second, the defense is effectively trying the malpractice suit inside the criminal trial.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: If the doctors fail her, the argument goes she was not responsible.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: The prosecutor anticipated exactly this.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: In her opening, she urged jurors not to treat the trial as a referendum on how the medical system treats women.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, I mean the defense is very much arguing points of the civil suit inside the criminal suit, which really wish she was not doing.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And note, she fell on the ground, uh, grass and snow, not a hard, you know, cement ground that I originally, that is what I knew of it, that was incorrect.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he testified that she had visible injuries and could not speak, and that he collected her clothing and wedding ring and served the hospital notice to preserve her blood and urine samples pending a warrant.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this part here, we kind of go back to this whole issue of possibly Clancy telling her husband that she heard voices.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: The sorry.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: The case took a turn that is worth just a whole this whole section of its own on, honestly, because Lawler was among the officers stationed outside her room at Bringham Women's Hospital, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Where she was permitted no visitors, no conversations.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: He testified that he was instructed to admit psychiatrist Paul Ziesel after Reddington obtained a court order allowing the doctor to go in and see her, and that the door was closed during the visit.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, during Fordar, which is the uh jury, you know, finding the jury basically, jurors were not apt, jurors were absent at the time, it emerged that Lindsay used Zezel's cell phone to call Patrick and tell him she had heard voices on the night of the killings.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Very interesting.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: But Reddington's position is that prosecutors manufactured a theory in which the defense retained psychologists gave Clancy the idea about the voices and coached her to repeat it to her husband.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Pressed on it, Lawler said he did not know whether it was a theory, only that he recalled the conversation.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: He acknowledged learning from the lead investigator that Clancy had told Patrick she heard voices, and that the same conversation included the suggestion that the psychologist had planted that idea in her mind.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: On redirect, he denied that the conversation had colored his testimony and confirmed he had overheard nothing of the hospital visit.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: The exchange prompted the judge to excuse the jury and evaluate the evidence before letting them return.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the significance, the voices, if you will, account is the load-bearing beam of the insanity defense.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: If the jury suspects it was suggested to her two days after the fact, beam cracks.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thursday, which was August 13th, the digital forensics and two and the most two-sided.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Digital forensics and the most two-sided day of the trial.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So for the prosecution, the Apple Map search central to their case as proof of deliberate planning.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Chiapini testified she searched schizophrenia and psychosis in the days before the killings.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: The map query mapped the route from the house to 3v restaurant and CPS on January 24, and 3V was not one of the family's usual takeout spots, per Patrick's earlier testimony.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Lindsay's phone was also used days before to search can you treat a psychopath?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Prosecutors also had Chia Pini read out an entire journal entry from October 2022 and surfaced a January 2022 message in which someone remarked that it was nice to see her feeling better, consistent with their theory that she fabricated symptoms and later invented the voice to serve a defense.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now the fence the defense.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Reddington drew out the searches prosecutors had skipped past, including hallucinations on January 19 and intrusive on January 20, alongside ordinary domestic searches such as pre-made goodie bags.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: He also walked the trooper through a photo she took on January 24 of Cora and Dawson with a snowman they had built, and Patrick's reply, You're a good mama.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, sure, yeah, you're a good mama, she built a snowman.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I would think that's a normal response for anybody to say.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's I don't think it's that deep, though.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: The best moment for the defense involved a suicide method search on the Surface Pro.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Reddington argued the search originated from a link about the musician Tom Hall, whom Patrick admired, and asked the examiner whether he knew how who had been sitting at the computer.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: The reply he did not know, obviously.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Reddington then established that the tablet was Patrick's and that Clancy had been at a doctor's appointment for Dawson when the search occurred, before asking whether that was really the whole of the witness's testimony.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So now Friday, no court, again, big shocker.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: The week closed with analysis taking stock, and the reviews were unusually split.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the prosecution has now called 71 witnesses and is expected to rest Monday with its postpartum psychosis experts still to come.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Analyst Catherine Roman assessed that the prosecution had finally found momentum after weeks of struggling.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Coyne took the opposite view, arguing the Commonwealth spent its time inflaming the jury rather than assembling a coherent first-degree murder case.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Peter Elkin split the difference.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: The prosecution succeeded in establishing that none of her caregivers recognized psychosis, though he noted that people across the criminal justice field have questioned whether their charges should have been brought at all.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of different, you know, thoughts, which you're always going to get.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're always going to get, you know, a side that agrees with prosecution, a side that agrees with the defense, and the middle of like, you know, a little bit of both.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, as I said, prosecutors are expected to rest Monday, after which the defense begins its case, and deliberations are likely still, you know, several weeks out.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, closing arguments seem to be shaping up, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: We were kind of like the prosecution is building toward, you know, Lindsay being a woman who researched her, you know, her window of time, chose an unfamiliar restaurant, and later acquired a symptom.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: The defense building toward a woman who searched hallucinations five days earlier, photographed her kids with a snowman that afternoon, and then was failed by everyone paid to notice.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: I the more I watch this case and listen to facts, evidence, the more I just really start to wonder do I really think that she had a psychotic break?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's I mean, it's hard for me to say.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really not sure.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I obviously she's not was not in her right mind during this.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like there's so much more underneath it that maybe we're not totally hearing.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I'll keep on keeping on and and let you guys know what's going on with the case.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's gonna be it for today.
• 16:00
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• 16:04
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• 16:14
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• 16:24
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• 16:26
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• 16:29
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• 16:37
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• 16:39
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• 16:42
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• 16:44
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• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, stay curious, stay skeptical.
• 16:50
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