Latest / The Book Deal / Sophie Beer on the importance of writing inclusively and her new middle grade novel, Thunderhead

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Sophie Beer on the importance of writing inclusively and her new middle grade novel, Thunderhead · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast
• 0:10
  Madeleine Cleary: where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favourite books.
• 0:15
  Madeleine Cleary: No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one
• 0:26
  Tina Strachan: deal
• 0:26
  Madeleine Cleary: at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on.
• 0:35
  Madeleine Cleary: And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:43
  Speaker: Hi, it's Tina here and I'm very excited for this week's episode where I had the opportunity to speak with a lovely Sophie Beer.
• 0:50
  Speaker: Sophie is prolifically published in the children's literature space with both her unique and quirky art and thoughtful, important storytelling.
• 0:58
  Speaker: I really wanted to chat with Sophie to discuss the importance of inclusivity in writing as this is something she's very passionate about and demonstrates in much of her work.
• 1:08
  Speaker: We discussed her most recent book, a middle grade called Thunderhead, about an awkward music obsessed tween who feels they're a magnet for bad luck, especially when they're diagnosed with a genetic disorder that results in hearing loss.
• 1:22
  Speaker: Because Thunderhead is a major music fan, just like Sophie is in real life.
• 1:26
  Speaker: We also discuss the impact music can have on your life and on your writing.
• 1:30
  Speaker: And the really cool thing about our chat as we discussed her Thunderhead book, we both had actual real thunder in the background as our storm descended on both of our cities.
• 1:41
  Speaker: It was pretty cool.
• 1:43
  Speaker: I was going to edit it out until I realized the significance.
• 1:46
  Speaker: I hope you enjoy my chat with Sophie and can take away some tips and advice on how to write inclusively in the right way.
• 1:53
  Tina Strachan: Sophie Beer.
• 1:54
  Tina Strachan: Welcome to the book Deal podcast.
• 1:56
  Sophie Beer: Oh, thank you.
• 1:57
  Sophie Beer: So delighted to.
• 1:59
  Tina Strachan: Oh, it's, it's, I am very excited to have you here and I've, um, always admired your work and I have so many questions to ask you about, um, your journey.
• 2:08
  Tina Strachan: 'cause it's been, it's been quite a big and eventful journey for you hasn't it, to get to this point now.
• 2:14
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 2:15
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 2:15
  Sophie Beer: Like it's, um, definitely, yeah, definitely been a few years in the making.
• 2:19
  Sophie Beer: So yeah, I'm excited to chat it all through because I think this is the first time I've probably laid everything out and like actually examined it.
• 2:24
  Sophie Beer: So it'll be interesting.
• 2:26
  Tina Strachan: oh, good goodie.
• 2:27
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 2:28
  Tina Strachan: And your, your back catalog is incredible.
• 2:31
  Tina Strachan: I, you've written and illustrated everything from board books to nonfiction to.
• 2:37
  Tina Strachan: You know, picture books to, and now all the way up to middle grade with Thunderhead.
• 2:44
  Tina Strachan: Um, and, and they've been translated into many different languages.
• 2:48
  Tina Strachan: I actually couldn't, yeah, there's so many that when I went to sort of have a little look and try and work it out, I actually couldn't get to the bottom of it.
• 2:55
  Tina Strachan: How many you had?
• 2:56
  Tina Strachan: I was looking on Amazon books at one point and there was 10 pages of Sophie Beer and I was like, I just, I don't know where it starts and.
• 3:04
  Tina Strachan: stops and.
• 3:06
  Tina Strachan: So how, how many have you had published now of individual books?
• 3:11
  Sophie Beer: I can't, uh, I should really go through and count them all one day.
• 3:14
  Sophie Beer: Um, it's upwards of 30.
• 3:16
  Sophie Beer: I know, I know that because I, I did count them a few years ago.
• 3:19
  Sophie Beer: Um, but yeah, it's, uh, that's combining like my, my author illustrated plus my, like, the stuff I've just illustrated.
• 3:26
  Sophie Beer: Um, and even just like smaller stuff that I, maybe I just had a part in an anthology and stuff like that, so, um, yeah.
• 3:32
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, I've, um, definitely, I had my hand in it for a while, so.
• 3:36
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 3:36
  Tina Strachan: No, it's awesome.
• 3:37
  Tina Strachan: What year was your first book published?
• 3:39
  Tina Strachan: Because that, this is also something that I tried to find and I couldn't
• 3:42
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, so my first ever book, uh, was, um, Wren, which was published by, uh, scribble Scribble.
• 3:51
  Sophie Beer: It's the amazing scribble books from London, uh, London, sorry, Melbourne.
• 3:54
  Sophie Beer: Um, and uh, written by Katrina Layman, who is absolutely amazing.
• 3:59
  Sophie Beer: And I also illustrated, her book is Ian Frank.
• 4:01
  Sophie Beer: Um, and that came out in 2018, I think, or 2017.
• 4:07
  Sophie Beer: I can't quite remember.
• 4:09
  Sophie Beer: Um, and I'm a bit fuzzy with the details on that because like I, I'm sure we'll get into it later.
• 4:15
  Sophie Beer: But, uh, so when I was contracted to do that, illustrate that book, I got, I finished the roughs and I presented the roughs and was onto doing the final illustrations when I got diagnosed with my brain tumor.
• 4:26
  Sophie Beer: And so I had to take a year off work and, um, recover and, and everything.
• 4:30
  Sophie Beer: So that kind of blew everything back.
• 4:34
  Sophie Beer: So it was, I, it was meant to come out in 20.
• 4:37
  Sophie Beer: 15 or 16, but it ended up coming out in 2017 or 18.
• 4:40
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah, so that, that, that is like, that was actually my first book.
• 4:44
  Sophie Beer: But then I think my first ever published book was Love Makes a Family, um, which is a board book.
• 4:50
  Sophie Beer: Uh, uh, it was published with Hardie Grant.
• 4:53
  Sophie Beer: Um, and that was 2017 or 18 as well.
• 4:58
  Sophie Beer: I think it, it pipped Wren by just a few months.
• 5:01
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 5:01
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 5:01
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I, I was sort of thinking 2017, 2018, that's not really that long ago though, is.
• 5:07
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 5:08
  Sophie Beer: Like I think that, but then I'm like, oh, that's almost 10 years.
• 5:12
  Tina Strachan: It's like when people say that the nineties are like, how long
• 5:15
  Sophie Beer: Yeah,
• 5:16
  Tina Strachan: we're like, oh, hang on.
• 5:17
  Tina Strachan: No, that was just, Yeah, it was not that long ago.
• 5:20
  Tina Strachan: Uh, yeah, but still
• 5:21
  Sophie Beer: I, you know,
• 5:22
  Tina Strachan: 30 published books though in that time is
• 5:24
  Sophie Beer: I know it's, yeah.
• 5:25
  Sophie Beer: I'm a bit of a workaholic.
• 5:26
  Sophie Beer: It's, yeah, a bit bad, like it's.
• 5:30
  Tina Strachan: But it is one of those industries that, um, you do have to.
• 5:34
  Tina Strachan: Role that when it comes in, you just have to take what you can get and and grasp at everything.
• 5:40
  Tina Strachan: Do you think
• 5:41
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:42
  Sophie Beer: It's very zeitgeisty, which is, yeah, it's probably a reason that I probably work a bit more than I should.
• 5:47
  Sophie Beer: Um, but I think having kids has kind of slowed that down a bit.
• 5:50
  Sophie Beer: Like I've been able to be a bit more choosy with my work'cause I'm only working part-time at the moment.
• 5:55
  Sophie Beer: And, um, kind of, you know, like working as an illustrator.
• 5:59
  Sophie Beer: You have that like starving artist mentality, you're like, oh, I, I'm not really passionate about this project, but I'll take it on either anyway because it's gonna pay the bills.
• 6:06
  Sophie Beer: Um, whereas I feel like nowadays I can kind of be a bit more choosy and be like, well, I'm only, I only work three days a week.
• 6:11
  Sophie Beer: Um, I only have a limited amount of books I can schedule per year, so I'm gonna have to be a bit more choosy about projects and things like that.
• 6:18
  Sophie Beer: So, um, I mean, that's nice to be a bit.
• 6:21
  Sophie Beer: A bit chewier, but yeah, I guess it means you end up having less money, so either being stressed or
• 6:27
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 6:29
  Tina Strachan: But it is, yeah, I agree.
• 6:30
  Tina Strachan: When you have children, you just, you time and the value of time just becomes.
• 6:37
  Tina Strachan: So very clear, doesn't it?
• 6:39
  Tina Strachan: Like you have, you know, you're working around nap time and you're working around, you know, school drop off and pick up and you can literally just say, okay, this is actually how many hours I have in a week to produce something.
• 6:51
  Tina Strachan: And times that over the year, this is only, I can only do X amount of books or produce X amount of
• 6:57
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, yeah,
• 6:59
  Tina Strachan: just is no more time to give.
• 7:00
  Tina Strachan: It cannot come from anywhere else.
• 7:02
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, it's, it's, it's so funny, like, I always say that to myself and I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut down on the number of things I do, and then someone will come to me with a great project and I'll be like, oh, I guess I'm gonna have to squeeze it in.
• 7:13
  Sophie Beer: And yeah, it's gotta the point where my agent has been like, Sophie, stop.
• 7:16
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 7:17
  Sophie Beer: You need to, you need to, you need to stop.
• 7:21
  Tina Strachan: you just can't stop being so
• 7:22
  Sophie Beer: calm, calm.
• 7:24
  Tina Strachan: Oh, I know.
• 7:25
  Sophie Beer: Which, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I wouldn't trade it off for anything in the world.
• 7:28
  Sophie Beer: Like I, I love my, I love my boys so much, but, um, yeah, it does, it does, particularly with women, it comes at the expense of, um, you know, being as productive with work.
• 7:37
  Sophie Beer: I, like, I, I recently started up at a studio, which has been really cool, um, in an effort to kind of separate my work and life balance a bit more.
• 7:45
  Sophie Beer: So I, like, instead of working at home, because I've, I've been a freelance illustrator for.
• 7:50
  Sophie Beer: Actually 10 years.
• 7:51
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, it would've been 2015.
• 7:52
  Sophie Beer: I started, um, the end of 2015.
• 7:54
  Sophie Beer: Um, and I've just worked at home for 10 years and it got to the point where my youngest, my 1-year-old went to daycare, uh, like.
• 8:03
  Sophie Beer: We've only been there two months and I was like, I can't stay at home by myself.
• 8:07
  Sophie Beer: I'm, I'm gonna go crazy.
• 8:09
  Sophie Beer: I need to, I need to have more of like a work-life balance, um, like a separation.
• 8:15
  Sophie Beer: I can't just keep working in, in my office at home anymore.
• 8:18
  Sophie Beer: So yeah, feel I'm working at a studio with a whole of other illustrators and, and, um, artists and things like that.
• 8:23
  Sophie Beer: It's, yeah, it's been really lovely.
• 8:24
  Sophie Beer: But, um, yeah, it, it is definitely is very hard'cause that it puts more time pressure, like you're like, uh.
• 8:30
  Sophie Beer: I do the daycare drop off, then I have to travel all the way to the studio, and then I have to travel from the studio to day daycare drop off, and it compresses everything a lot.
• 8:38
  Sophie Beer: But, uh, I feel like I'm more focused that way.
• 8:40
  Sophie Beer: Like, I'm
• 8:40
  Tina Strachan: say, are you more productive because you're not just going like, oh, and I'll just go pop a load of washing on and hang that out and then kind of get stuck and, yeah, and, and maybe working with other people as well.
• 8:52
  Tina Strachan: Do you find that social and just
• 8:53
  Sophie Beer: yeah.
• 8:54
  Sophie Beer: Oh.
• 8:55
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, definitely.
• 8:56
  Sophie Beer: My, um, my husband is a medical professional.
• 8:59
  Sophie Beer: He's a, a brain researcher and he talks a lot about how um, a risk for dementia with older people is lack of socialization.
• 9:06
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 9:07
  Sophie Beer: I know I always used to think of that, like when I was in my studio, well, in my studio at home, working by myself, and I'm like, I haven't talked to anyone in like two days, apart from my husband's.
• 9:18
  Tina Strachan: he
• 9:19
  Sophie Beer: around other people.
• 9:20
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, just it's nice.
• 9:22
  Sophie Beer: It's nice.
• 9:23
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah.
• 9:25
  Sophie Beer: But yeah, it does, it does compress your time a lot.
• 9:26
  Sophie Beer: But yeah, I, I have been a lot more choosy with my projects since having kids and, um, yeah, that's been really lovely because it means I, I'm working on things I'm really passionate about and, and, um, working on books that I really believe in, which has been really lovely.
• 9:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Tina Strachan: It must be hard to say no though, still.
• 9:40
  Tina Strachan: Like how
• 9:41
  Sophie Beer: hard.
• 9:41
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Tina Strachan: I mean, it's a problem we all want, right?
• 9:46
  Sophie Beer: I think like for me it also like going back to that starving artist mentality.
• 9:50
  Sophie Beer: Like I, whenever I turn down a job, I always think, well maybe, you know, I won't get another job for, you know, a few months.
• 9:58
  Sophie Beer: So did I just turn down and an opportunity to pay this huge bill that might come hap that might happen.
• 10:04
  Sophie Beer: Um, which is probably, you know, my, my anxious brain just being silly'cause like.
• 10:09
  Sophie Beer: My husband works in medicine.
• 10:10
  Sophie Beer: He has an extremely stable job.
• 10:12
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:14
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:15
  Sophie Beer: The government is not gonna pay him for, you know, his research, but you know.
• 10:19
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 10:19
  Tina Strachan: Uh, I don't think you
• 10:20
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 10:20
  Sophie Beer: Like
• 10:20
  Tina Strachan: about about jobs coming in.
• 10:23
  Tina Strachan: I think, I mean, for yourself, like, you know, if you're turning them down and with such, uh, your back catalog and your portfolio, I'm,
• 10:29
  Sophie Beer: Oh, that's nice.
• 10:30
  Sophie Beer: Actually, just turned out a really big job, and I felt so bad about it.
• 10:33
  Sophie Beer: I was, I was just like, I, I just looked at my schedule.
• 10:36
  Sophie Beer: I was like, I can't, I can't, I legitimately can't do this.
• 10:38
  Sophie Beer: I'll just be too stressed.
• 10:39
  Sophie Beer: And I would rather give the books that I'm working on at the moment, the attention they deserve instead of trying to be everywhere at once.
• 10:47
  Sophie Beer: So,
• 10:47
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 10:47
  Tina Strachan: And probably the person, um, who's offered it to you that you have turned down would prefer you to be open and honest in the first instance.
• 10:55
  Tina Strachan: Then try and push through and stress yourself and, you know, maybe not deliver or.
• 11:00
  Tina Strachan: You know, have to sort of push those delivery kind of deadlines and stuff like that to get it done.
• 11:04
  Tina Strachan: They, you
• 11:05
  Sophie Beer: Oh,
• 11:05
  Tina Strachan: probably appreciate the honesty.
• 11:08
  Sophie Beer: yeah, I, I did the opposite of that when I was about to go on mat leave.
• 11:11
  Sophie Beer: 'cause I got the offer to illustrate the Taylor Swift book with,
• 11:14
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 11:16
  Sophie Beer: Penguin New York, and I was talking to my agent, I was like, oh, legitimately can't turn this down.
• 11:20
  Sophie Beer: I love Taylor Swift.
• 11:22
  Sophie Beer: This is amazing.
• 11:23
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 11:24
  Sophie Beer: when am I ever gonna be offered this look again?
• 11:26
  Sophie Beer: So I,
• 11:27
  Tina Strachan: I, was gonna ask you about them.
• 11:29
  Tina Strachan: So that's the, um, little p little People Big Dreams books.
• 11:33
  Tina Strachan: Was that
• 11:33
  Sophie Beer: I did Elton John for them.
• 11:34
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 11:35
  Sophie Beer: Little people, big dreams.
• 11:36
  Sophie Beer: Uh, but this one is, uh, it's called Tiny Idols.
• 11:39
  Sophie Beer: It's like a
• 11:39
  Tina Strachan: oh, yes,
• 11:41
  Sophie Beer: artists.
• 11:41
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 11:42
  Sophie Beer: It's very cute.
• 11:43
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 11:43
  Tina Strachan: But I mean, even Elton John for the Little People Big Dreams.
• 11:47
  Tina Strachan: Um, but it wasn't just, just Taylor Swift though, was it that you did.
• 11:51
  Sophie Beer: No, no.
• 11:51
  Sophie Beer: So I did, yeah, I did Elton John for little people big dreams, which was like a dream come true.
• 11:55
  Sophie Beer: 'cause I'm such a big Elton John fan.
• 11:57
  Sophie Beer: Like I, um, I legitimately like, this sounds fake, but this actually happened.
• 12:00
  Sophie Beer: I got the email asking me to illustrate that book when I was on the way to an Elton John concert.
• 12:06
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 12:07
  Sophie Beer: It was like spooky synchronicity.
• 12:08
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, it was,
• 12:09
  Tina Strachan: Spooky.
• 12:09
  Tina Strachan: Would you, did you just read it thinking this is some kind of, am I act?
• 12:13
  Tina Strachan: Am I actually dreaming like is.
• 12:14
  Sophie Beer: I, I, I screamed so loud in the car that people thought that like, there was like a semitrailer oncoming into traffic towards us.
• 12:21
  Sophie Beer: Like it was, I was with my mother-in-law who was like the loveliest best in the world, but she's a bit like DIY and a bit like, whoa.
• 12:27
  Tina Strachan: Oh, what's
• 12:29
  Sophie Beer: She was like,
• 12:31
  Tina Strachan: stressing her out?
• 12:32
  Sophie Beer: yes.
• 12:33
  Tina Strachan: no.
• 12:34
  Sophie Beer: And then there was my, um, my sister-in-law who was like nine months pregnant at that time, and she was like, ing a belly.
• 12:40
  Sophie Beer: I was like, it's all right everyone.
• 12:41
  Sophie Beer: We're not in imminent danger of a traffic accident.
• 12:43
  Sophie Beer: I just got a really cool job offer.
• 12:45
  Sophie Beer: That's all.
• 12:46
  Tina Strachan: Which deserves screaming though, I really didn't.
• 12:49
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 12:49
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:50
  Tina Strachan: that's incredible
• 12:51
  Sophie Beer: very fun.
• 12:53
  Sophie Beer: With the Taylor and the Taylor Swift, the little, not, sorry, not little people.
• 12:56
  Sophie Beer: Big dreams in Tiny Idols, which is the line with, um, penguin Random House.
• 13:00
  Sophie Beer: They have, there's Taylor Swift, Beyonce.
• 13:04
  Sophie Beer: Um, Harry Styles and I've just finished bts, Billy Eilish and I'm working on Ariana Grande.
• 13:10
  Sophie Beer: So yeah,
• 13:11
  Tina Strachan: BTS.
• 13:11
  Tina Strachan: That's so cool.
• 13:13
  Sophie Beer: there are seven of them.
• 13:15
  Tina Strachan: I only, oh
• 13:15
  Sophie Beer: me seven times longer till
• 13:19
  Tina Strachan: I only found out about BTS'cause I have an 11-year-old, or it was, you know, so, um, oh, it was just, it's just, there was just one song I think that they used to play on repeat a couple of years ago.
• 13:32
  Tina Strachan: I'll have to tell him.
• 13:33
  Tina Strachan: I'll have to tell him about it.
• 13:34
  Tina Strachan: Um, that's pretty cool because music is a big part of your life, isn't it?
• 13:39
  Sophie Beer: Yes.
• 13:40
  Sophie Beer: A huge part.
• 13:40
  Sophie Beer: Yes.
• 13:40
  Sophie Beer: So I used to be a music reviewer back long ago, um, in my late teens, early twenties.
• 13:46
  Sophie Beer: And I was just like the biggest music obsessive, um, didn't play any instruments myself, didn't sing, couldn't, you know, for Jack, but, uh, just would obsessed with it.
• 13:56
  Sophie Beer: It's like when I think back on that time in my life, I think of music and I actually met my now husband.
• 14:02
  Sophie Beer: Uh, said, brain expert on, on, uh, a music forum hilariously.
• 14:10
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah, and then we met at a music gig.
• 14:13
  Sophie Beer: So I, my, my two sons wouldn't exist if it weren't for my obsession with music, which is kind of baffling to think about,
• 14:21
  Tina Strachan: Do you, can I ask you, do you listen to music when you write or, or, or draw when you're
• 14:27
  Sophie Beer: uh, when I, uh, it depends what I'm doing.
• 14:29
  Sophie Beer: Um.
• 14:31
  Sophie Beer: I find it distracts me a bit too much if it's got like lyrics and stuff like that.
• 14:34
  Sophie Beer: Uh, I kind of just need silence when I'm writing because, uh, yeah, I, I, I get too distracted.
• 14:40
  Sophie Beer: But if I'm illustrating, like, it depends on the level of complication, like complexity.
• 14:45
  Sophie Beer: Usually I just, uh, I, I'm listening to an audiobook or a podcast.
• 14:48
  Sophie Beer: Um, if it's something I can just like, kind of, you know, uh.
• 14:54
  Sophie Beer: Spin my brain out and then just like,
• 14:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 14:56
  Sophie Beer: just like coloring or something like that.
• 14:58
  Sophie Beer: But if it's something like if I'm drawing drafting illustrations or I'm illustrating a picture book and I need to, to be doing like thumbnailing or sketching or something like that, then involves sort of brain power.
• 15:06
  Sophie Beer: I'll, um, I'll be listening to an album Yeah.
• 15:10
  Sophie Beer: But not as much as I used to, which is a bit sad.
• 15:13
  Sophie Beer: Um, which I'm sure Yeah.
• 15:14
  Sophie Beer: We'll, we'll get into because.
• 15:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:18
  Tina Strachan: Oh,
• 15:18
  Sophie Beer: lay all these breadcrumbs down for your listeners.
• 15:20
  Tina Strachan: know, I know.
• 15:22
  Tina Strachan: oh, this is,
• 15:22
  Sophie Beer: What's gonna happen?
• 15:24
  Tina Strachan: I like it.
• 15:25
  Tina Strachan: Love it.
• 15:25
  Tina Strachan: Stay tuned for more.
• 15:29
  Tina Strachan: Oh, that's pretty exciting.
• 15:30
  Tina Strachan: I listen.
• 15:30
  Tina Strachan: I actually sometimes do and sometimes don't.
• 15:33
  Tina Strachan: Like you said with.
• 15:34
  Tina Strachan: Music and I, um, have been working on this one project recently, and I've never done this before.
• 15:39
  Tina Strachan: I'm gonna sound crazy.
• 15:40
  Tina Strachan: People are gonna be like, oh, she just has the weirdest writing style.
• 15:43
  Tina Strachan: I've ne I have never done this before, but it's sort of this, this book sort of, um, takes place.
• 15:49
  Tina Strachan: There's a couple of chapters probably the last half where they, um, kind of in, I don't, I just, did you hear that thunder?
• 15:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I did actually.
• 15:57
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, I do.
• 16:00
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it just, just came rolling
• 16:01
  Sophie Beer: here too.
• 16:02
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 16:03
  Tina Strachan: I was like, what is that?
• 16:04
  Sophie Beer: It'll hit me.
• 16:04
  Sophie Beer: It'll hit me in like a few, few minutes.
• 16:06
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 16:07
  Tina Strachan: we've got the same storm cell coming through.
• 16:09
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so I'm, I am writing this book at the moment.
• 16:12
  Tina Strachan: It's in sort of two different.
• 16:14
  Tina Strachan: Like another world kind of at the end.
• 16:16
  Tina Strachan: It's not fantasy, but it's just like they're, they're in a game kind of at the end.
• 16:20
  Tina Strachan: And, um, I did this weird thing where I felt like whenever they were in that world, I had to be in a particular zone and a particular mind frame for it.
• 16:31
  Tina Strachan: So.
• 16:32
  Tina Strachan: I even, but because I kept wanting to progress it, I would just, I actually wrote the other chapters around it because I knew what was gonna happen.
• 16:39
  Tina Strachan: Oh.
• 16:39
  Tina Strachan: that sounds really weird.
• 16:40
  Tina Strachan: I knew what was gonna happen in those other world scenes.
• 16:41
  Tina Strachan: I knew how it was gonna feel at the end of it.
• 16:43
  Tina Strachan: I knew what was gonna happen in them.
• 16:44
  Tina Strachan: I just had to write them so I could write the other I.
• 16:47
  Tina Strachan: In between chapters.
• 16:48
  Tina Strachan: So when I had to, when I was writing that in another World chapters, I had to stream a particular kind of music and be in a particular kind of area where I could a hundred percent focus.
• 16:58
  Tina Strachan: But it was like, if I turned it on, it was like a switch and it just, I could have written it without the music, like I probably could have pushed through, but it certainly made a huge difference.
• 17:06
  Tina Strachan: As soon as I turned it on, it just like kind of got me in that space and it's, I couldn't have written it without it.
• 17:12
  Tina Strachan: It's so music's really powerful like that, isn't it?
• 17:14
  Sophie Beer: Mm-hmm.
• 17:15
  Sophie Beer: Like, I've done so many writing courses where, um, the, the mentor will say something like, if you're stuck on a particular scene.
• 17:23
  Sophie Beer: Put on an a song that matches or gives you that same emotion that you're trying to elicit in the reader, which I've never actually tried to do that.
• 17:29
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah, like I said, I prefer silence when I'm writing.
• 17:31
  Sophie Beer: But, um, yeah, that doesn't surprise me.
• 17:33
  Sophie Beer: 'cause music kind of tips into that, like.
• 17:35
  Sophie Beer: Limbic system in your brain where it's like, it's like almost lizard brain, like, you know, um, it's, it, it's on another plane of reality.
• 17:42
  Sophie Beer: It's not really connected to surface emotions, it's something deeper.
• 17:45
  Sophie Beer: Uh, so yeah, it's, it's, it's funny how your, your mind is kind of associated that with, with that particular scene you are writing and you're like, I, yeah.
• 17:53
  Sophie Beer: This is the, the part of my brain that needs to be writing in charge when I'm writing this bit.
• 17:57
  Sophie Beer: It's, yeah, it's
• 17:58
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 17:58
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 17:58
  Tina Strachan: If it ever sees the light of day, hopefully it does this book that I'm working on at the moment, um, you'll, I think, I think you'll see why if you read it, you'll be like, um, I can see that.
• 18:07
  Tina Strachan: But um, yeah.
• 18:08
  Tina Strachan: I have playlists as well.
• 18:09
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 18:10
  Tina Strachan: Thunder.
• 18:11
  Tina Strachan: Um, it was really loud.
• 18:13
  Tina Strachan: I have playlists as well that I create Oh, for books, even if I haven't quite written them yet.
• 18:18
  Tina Strachan: And I've done that for oh, looks nice.
• 18:20
  Tina Strachan: I like the em.
• 18:21
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 18:21
  Tina Strachan: And sometimes I'll listen to them when I'm driving.
• 18:24
  Tina Strachan: Um, I've had to do lots of Brisbane trips lately.
• 18:27
  Tina Strachan: It's two two hours each way at the moment, and it's horrifying.
• 18:31
  Tina Strachan: But anyway, it does give me a good chance to listen to that music.
• 18:34
  Tina Strachan: And it, honestly, it just plays out scenes in my head, so and so clearly, and then all I have to, all I have to do is write it down.
• 18:42
  Tina Strachan: Simple.
• 18:43
  Tina Strachan: It's simple as that.
• 18:44
  Sophie Beer: I think it's'cause it's kind of like music can be this sort of like little snippet of emotion, you know, stuffed into a, stuffed into a word file a word, um, sorry, uh, sound file.
• 18:53
  Sophie Beer: And it's, it's, it kind of, accessing those emotions is so easy when you just cross play and it's.
• 18:58
  Sophie Beer: Automatically there.
• 18:59
  Sophie Beer: Um, there are so many times that I've had a song associated with, you know, a particular feeling or, you know, like when you get the goosebumps on your arms and you listen to the song and you can always access that feeling just by pressing play.
• 19:10
  Sophie Beer: It's just like you always get the goosebumps or you always feel that particular emotion and it's, yeah, it's so cool.
• 19:14
  Sophie Beer: But I love that idea of like forming worlds around playlists.
• 19:17
  Sophie Beer: That's really cool.
• 19:18
  Sophie Beer: I
• 19:18
  Tina Strachan: I've heard, yeah, I've heard that some people have, like, some authors have like Spotify lists that they tell their, you know, readers about if they want to sort of delve into it a little bit more.
• 19:29
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, it's lovely.
• 19:30
  Sophie Beer: Oh, like, oh, like, um, uh, film scores.
• 19:33
  Sophie Beer: Yes.
• 19:34
  Tina Strachan: yeah, yeah.
• 19:35
  Tina Strachan: It's like a soundtrack.
• 19:35
  Tina Strachan: And I think,'cause I see movies, I see books in my, stories in my head, like a movie as well.
• 19:40
  Tina Strachan: It just sounds like a backing list for it.
• 19:42
  Tina Strachan: It's, Yeah.
• 19:43
  Tina Strachan: it's
• 19:43
  Sophie Beer: so cool.
• 19:44
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 19:44
  Tina Strachan: But, um, in your middle grade book that you've just released, Thunderhead,
• 19:51
  Sophie Beer: Yay.
• 19:52
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Tina Strachan: it's been out, it's been out for a couple of months now, hasn't it?
• 19:55
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, since, um, uh, early, oh, late October last year,
• 19:59
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 20:00
  Sophie Beer: so October, 2024.
• 20:01
  Sophie Beer: Yeah,
• 20:01
  Tina Strachan: So the thunderhead, uh, the character in your book, uh, and the whole book.
• 20:07
  Tina Strachan: Ooh, there's your thunder.
• 20:08
  Tina Strachan: See,
• 20:08
  Sophie Beer: that's my thunder.
• 20:09
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Sophie Beer: Whoa, Thunderhead.
• 20:13
  Tina Strachan: Oh my
• 20:13
  Sophie Beer: all coming together.
• 20:14
  Sophie Beer: I actually arranged this with the
• 20:16
  Tina Strachan: are so good.
• 20:18
  Tina Strachan: I was gonna cut the thunder out, but now I'm like, no, this is, I'm keeping this thunder
• 20:23
  Sophie Beer: cinematic.
• 20:24
  Tina Strachan: This is perfect.
• 20:25
  Sophie Beer: It's our, It's our, soundtrack.
• 20:28
  Tina Strachan: And it's so funny when I saw you at the, um, the right links, um, the book links romancing the stars the other week, and I was like, I didn't bring my copy.
• 20:37
  Tina Strachan: I wanted you to sign it for me.
• 20:38
  Tina Strachan: And then I realized, I actually bought a signed copy anyway when I bought it from the,
• 20:42
  Sophie Beer: That's so lovely.
• 20:43
  Sophie Beer: Oh, which workshop was that?
• 20:45
  Tina Strachan: uh, I always say this wrong kin.
• 20:50
  Sophie Beer: Yes.
• 20:51
  Sophie Beer: I just say keno.
• 20:51
  Sophie Beer: Okay.
• 20:52
  Sophie Beer: Because I'm, yeah.
• 20:53
  Sophie Beer: I'm not a Sydney, Sydney person, so, yeah.
• 20:55
  Sophie Beer: Oh, that's so lovely.
• 20:58
  Sophie Beer: Oh,
• 20:58
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 20:59
  Tina Strachan: I'm not a Sydney person either.
• 21:00
  Tina Strachan: Hence why?
• 21:00
  Tina Strachan: We dunno how to say it.
• 21:01
  Tina Strachan: They say it
• 21:01
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 21:02
  Tina Strachan: Just like Nu
• 21:04
  Sophie Beer: I, I get out of the way by saying keno.
• 21:05
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 21:06
  Tina Strachan: Nu yeah.
• 21:06
  Tina Strachan: I like that.
• 21:07
  Tina Strachan: Oh, and an incredible shop.
• 21:09
  Tina Strachan: Like I, I went there two days in a row.
• 21:11
  Tina Strachan: It was amazing.
• 21:12
  Sophie Beer: It's like heaven, isn't it?
• 21:13
  Sophie Beer: It's got a cafe attached.
• 21:14
  Sophie Beer: So it's like you get your coffee, just wander around, get lost in the book maze.
• 21:18
  Sophie Beer: It's beautiful.
• 21:20
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 21:20
  Sophie Beer: Um, but
• 21:20
  Tina Strachan: Sorry, I'm just loving this thunder happening in the background as we're talking about Thunderhead your middle
• 21:25
  Sophie Beer: so atmospheric.
• 21:26
  Tina Strachan: October last year, Thunderhead, um, is almost as obsessed with music as you are.
• 21:32
  Tina Strachan: So there's a little bit of, a lot of you in this book, isn't there?
• 21:35
  Tina Strachan: Uh.
• 21:35
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 21:36
  Sophie Beer: I kind of, um.
• 21:38
  Sophie Beer: I mean, I, I feel like I'm, I'm pretty dissimilar to the actual character of Thunderhead, uh, which I did purposely, purposefully, because I was like, I don't want my mom or someone reading this book and being like, Sophie just put, like, put herself in a book.
• 21:51
  Sophie Beer: So I, I tried to, I distinctly tried to separate myself from the character and then my mom read the book and was like, it was just you, Sophie.
• 21:57
  Sophie Beer: And I was like, dad.
• 21:58
  Tina Strachan: I know.
• 21:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Tina Strachan: I don't think you can get away with it.
• 22:01
  Tina Strachan: I've, I've, thought about that before.
• 22:03
  Tina Strachan: It's very hard to write a character that's kind of not you.
• 22:05
  Tina Strachan: Like I've had that question as well, is, is your character actually you?
• 22:08
  Tina Strachan: And I'm like, I, well, I tried not to,
• 22:11
  Sophie Beer: Try not to.
• 22:11
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, I, I mean I guess it's, um, idiosyncra is idiosyncra.
• 22:16
  Sophie Beer: I can never say that word.
• 22:17
  Sophie Beer: You know what I mean?
• 22:18
  Sophie Beer: Uh, they kind of just bleed through, like characteristics and traits bleed through from your, from yourself into your writing.
• 22:23
  Sophie Beer: And it's just
• 22:24
  Tina Strachan: Without even
• 22:24
  Sophie Beer: not, avoidable.
• 22:25
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, unavoidable.
• 22:26
  Sophie Beer: Um, but, uh, yeah, so Thunderhead is absolutely obsessed with music pop, like more than I was, I would say, which is saying something because.
• 22:34
  Sophie Beer: I was very obsessed, but music is like what they live and breathe and, you know, that's their reason for living.
• 22:40
  Sophie Beer: And, uh, then they go on a journey because they conflict.
• 22:50
  Sophie Beer: They find out that they have a genetic disease, which means that they're gonna be going deaf.
• 22:55
  Sophie Beer: So yeah, that's the, yeah, the, the crux of the book, um, yeah.
• 22:59
  Sophie Beer: A bit sad, but it's a funny book, I swear.
• 23:02
  Sophie Beer: It's funny.
• 23:03
  Sophie Beer: I hope.
• 23:04
  Tina Strachan: It is funny.
• 23:04
  Tina Strachan: It is.
• 23:05
  Tina Strachan: It's really, I know you see, you have to have that conflict in there, obviously for, you know, to make the book work.
• 23:10
  Tina Strachan: But of course it's, it's how you sort of encapsulate it, sort of everything else around it and create the world around it.
• 23:16
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 23:17
  Sophie Beer: Oh definitely.
• 23:17
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 23:18
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 23:18
  Sophie Beer: Um, I think like that, the, the humor of the book really came from, I.
• 23:23
  Sophie Beer: Because I myself dealt with the same brain tumor that thunderhead in the character, the main character the book has.
• 23:29
  Sophie Beer: Um, I don't have the genetic disease that Thunderhead has.
• 23:33
  Sophie Beer: Um, but I had a, like the same tumor that I have.
• 23:38
  Sophie Beer: Um, so like, and when I went through that, that was, uh, 20 I.
• 23:43
  Sophie Beer: 2017, when I went through that experience, I found the whole thing funny.
• 23:46
  Sophie Beer: Like it was horrifying and really sad, but like there was just this, this undercurrent of like dark humor to it all because it was like.
• 23:56
  Sophie Beer: Of course, the person who is absolutely obsessed with music is going to become hard of hearing, you know, the person who met their husband on a music forum is going to lose their hearing.
• 24:04
  Sophie Beer: Like, it was just kind of like, a bit like funny and ironic and it was, yeah, I, I just saw the humor in it.
• 24:11
  Sophie Beer: And, um, I think, yeah, that's where that, that kind of, that gall's humor, the black humor kind of came through that way.
• 24:23
  Karen Wasson: Hello, I'm Karen Wasson, member of the 2025 debut crew and author of Inked, A Middle grade graphic novel from Hardie Grant's brand new imprint, Figment with brilliant illustrations by JK Minton.
• 24:36
  Karen Wasson: Inked is a story of Sid Kraken, a 12-year-old boy who just wants to avoid the bullies, keep his head down, and get through his final year at primary school.
• 24:44
  Karen Wasson: But Sid's life is turned entirely upside down when he discovers Otto.
• 24:49
  Karen Wasson: A talking and opera singing octopus in his family's fish shop.
• 24:53
  Karen Wasson: Otto is obnoxious, demanding, and won't leave Sid alone until he helps him get to the ocean roughly 300 kilometers away.
• 25:02
  Karen Wasson: Plus, Sid has bigger fish to fry.
• 25:04
  Karen Wasson: He has to figure out how to get into the art school of his dreams or else high school.
• 25:08
  Karen Wasson: Next year will be a nightmare.
• 25:11
  Karen Wasson: Canid and Otto find a way to work together or will it all end in full blown disaster.
• 25:17
  Karen Wasson: Filled with slapstick humor and heart inked is a story about blending in and standing out and is available now in all good bookstores and libraries.
• 25:27
  Karen Wasson: I hope you enjoy this small town big time adventure, and a huge thank you to the Book Deal podcast for this wonderful opportunity to share.
• 25:39
  Tina Strachan: one of the main reasons why I wanted to, um, chat to you today as well about, you know, Thunderhead and you, it, it was such a wonderful story and the way that you, um, that Thunderhead sort of worked through everything and very much for that age group.
• 25:55
  Tina Strachan: 'cause she's 12, turning 13.
• 25:57
  Sophie Beer: Yes.
• 25:57
  Sophie Beer: 12 20 13.
• 25:58
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:59
  Tina Strachan: So, you know, her reactions and everything to it is exactly, you know, what kids would, would go through as well.
• 26:05
  Tina Strachan: But, um, it all works out in the end, spoiler alert, but without giving too much away, you know, it's, it was really, you know, it was just spoke to a lot of, you know, resilience in children and, and acceptance as well, I
• 26:16
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:18
  Sophie Beer: That was, um, there's definitely like a lot of emotions that they work through, but I think like with, with something like a genetic disorder, there's, there's no way I.
• 26:29
  Sophie Beer: I mean, you can have a happy ending in that you have that like radical acceptance that that is going to be your life now.
• 26:36
  Sophie Beer: Um, and like I, I speak from a place of experience because I have a genetic condition, but it's not the same one as Thunderhead has.
• 26:43
  Sophie Beer: It was a different one, which was actually what inspired me to sit down and write the novel because I had, that had this idea of floating around my head for a few years after I had the tumor.
• 26:50
  Sophie Beer: And I was like, this would've been so much worse if I was like in that like 12, 13, 14-year-old kind of.
• 26:57
  Sophie Beer: Stage of life where you tie your identity to whatever band you're in love with.
• 27:02
  Sophie Beer: And, um, music was so integral, like to who I was around that time, you know, like your favorite band would be like who you were that week.
• 27:10
  Sophie Beer: Like I was, I've really been good Charlotte, for when I was that age and that was how I
• 27:16
  Tina Strachan: Who wasn't.
• 27:17
  Sophie Beer: I was like, yeah, right.
• 27:18
  Tina Strachan: Oh, really?
• 27:19
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 27:19
  Sophie Beer: I was, I was like, it was Sophie, the good Charlotte fan.
• 27:22
  Sophie Beer: It was, yeah.
• 27:22
  Sophie Beer: That was me.
• 27:23
  Sophie Beer: So, um.
• 27:25
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, I thought like it would just, it was kind of like a, um, a ripe idea for a novel, I guess, to, um, have someone around that age who was invested their identity so much in music to have to go through like this life-changing experience with the, with hearing loss, but then also having the genetic condition on top.
• 27:43
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah, it's just like a lot of emotions to work through, which is, I, I like, yeah, I, I definitely try to imbue a lot of hope into it because, um, I, I strongly believe.
• 27:54
  Sophie Beer: Uh, if there's one thing that children's authors can do is give kids hope.
• 27:59
  Sophie Beer: Like it's, um, it's our imperative to, to handle story for young people with a sense of hope and a sense of, of, um, hope for the future.
• 28:09
  Sophie Beer: So, uh, like I take that very seriously and, um, I didn't really wanna write a sad book.
• 28:14
  Sophie Beer: I didn't, I didn't want it to be sad.
• 28:15
  Sophie Beer: I wanted it to be like funny, but also, um, life-affirming.
• 28:21
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 28:21
  Tina Strachan: And I think Thunderhead comes across as really strong.
• 28:23
  Tina Strachan: You've, you've written really strong character, so, and, and her friend, her friend group as well is, um, yeah, pretty incredible.
• 28:30
  Tina Strachan: It's
• 28:31
  Sophie Beer: they're the best.
• 28:31
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 28:32
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 28:34
  Tina Strachan: So I wanted to, sorry, I'm actually a little bit selfish, I have to say in that, um, even just creating this whole podcast with Madeline, um, Cleary, my co-host, she, we always say like, um.
• 28:46
  Tina Strachan: This is basically just us doing research for our, for ourselves.
• 28:49
  Tina Strachan: And it's like I have all, we have all these questions, um, that we wanna ask other authors, and we love hearing author stories about, um, how they got to, um, their journeys to publications.
• 28:59
  Tina Strachan: So why don't we just ask'em, but we'll record it and share it with, with everybody else.
• 29:03
  Tina Strachan: But it's, but you know, we've, I feel very fortunate that I can, you know, pin you down and, and be like, can you, you know, I really wanted to talk to you about, um, writing.
• 29:14
  Tina Strachan: Uh, characters with, um, medical conditions, you know, diverse characters, um, characters with disabilities because there's, um, because I need to know more myself.
• 29:26
  Tina Strachan: I, I, it's something that I want to know more about and I'm sure there's lots of other listeners who do as well.
• 29:31
  Tina Strachan: And, um, and I know it's important to you, it's something that you feel very strongly about.
• 29:37
  Tina Strachan: And I know there's some really wrong ways of doing it,
• 29:39
  Sophie Beer: Oh yeah.
• 29:41
  Tina Strachan: so, you know, and, and there's some really right ways.
• 29:44
  Tina Strachan: But can we talk about some of the, the wrong ways to, what are the absolute
• 29:48
  Sophie Beer: Uh, yeah.
• 29:49
  Sophie Beer: Um, I think it was, uh, the disability activist Stella Young, who came up with the idea of inspiration porn, which is like having a disabled character just to be like, uh.
• 30:02
  Sophie Beer: Your inspiration just be inspirational to all the other non-disabled people around them.
• 30:07
  Sophie Beer: Um, which is like, it was something I cognitively understood, but then when I became hard of hearing myself, I really understood it.
• 30:14
  Sophie Beer: It was, um, yeah, it was, it was really foundational to me because, you know, just being this objective, not pity, but, but like inspiration, like that's, that's all.
• 30:27
  Sophie Beer: Someone's entire life story can be whittled down to as just being inspirational for other people.
• 30:33
  Sophie Beer: So I, I, I really, really like, like three dimensional representations of disabled kids and disabled characters.
• 30:40
  Sophie Beer: You know, people who aren't completely, I.
• 30:43
  Sophie Beer: Inspirational Porny.
• 30:45
  Sophie Beer: They're not, they're not just like these, these, these virtuous, um, paragons of, of, you know, loveliness and oh, accepting us and martyrdom and, and you, oh, there's, they can do no wrong.
• 30:56
  Sophie Beer: They're just, you're just sweetie and they're disabled.
• 30:58
  Sophie Beer: They, you know, just, just to be there inspirational for other people.
• 31:01
  Sophie Beer: Um,
• 31:01
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 31:02
  Sophie Beer: yeah, I, that's a really wrong way to, to.
• 31:06
  Sophie Beer: To, uh, have a, a disabled character of like, if you're gonna have a disabled, disabled character in you're writing, make them a 3D human, make them, um, have flaws, negatives, like you don't, you don't need to handle them with like kid gloves just because they're disabled, uh, because they're, they're in person in their own right.
• 31:22
  Sophie Beer: And, um, they deserve all the flaws and all the complexity that comes with writing a non-disabled character.
• 31:29
  Sophie Beer: So, I guess.
• 31:31
  Sophie Beer: Getting rid of that otherness, like acknowledging that disability is an otherness in itself, but being proud of that otherness and being, you know, um, being able to give that character the whole breadth, that breadth that you would to a non-disabled character.
• 31:48
  Sophie Beer: Uh, that's, I definitely, um, have picked that up so many times in, in books since I became hard of hearing.
• 31:55
  Sophie Beer: I, I've picked that up a lot in books that I've read, which, um.
• 32:00
  Sophie Beer: If there's, if there's a disabled character that really sings to me, it's because they're either like, they're troubled or they're, they're, um, just drawn in a really realistic way that I find really beautiful.
• 32:10
  Sophie Beer: Um, like the book that really got me to thinking about, I.
• 32:16
  Sophie Beer: Uh, writing my own book about hearing loss was, um, you're Welcome, universe by Whitney Garner, which is a, an American book.
• 32:24
  Sophie Beer: But, uh, it's about a girl who is deaf and, um, she's a graffiti artist and she's, I, I've gotta say like, not a nice person.
• 32:32
  Sophie Beer: She's a really difficult person and I love that.
• 32:36
  Sophie Beer: I loved that she had so much, you know, depth to her and darkness as well as light.
• 32:40
  Sophie Beer: And it, um, it kind of made me revise.
• 32:43
  Sophie Beer: My main character in Thunderhead a lot because Thunderhead has a lot of lessons to learn about being, being a nice person
• 32:50
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 32:51
  Sophie Beer: and making friends.
• 32:54
  Tina Strachan: Oh, we have to learn these skills sometimes, right?
• 32:56
  Sophie Beer: exactly.
• 32:57
  Sophie Beer: Yeah,
• 32:58
  Tina Strachan: Oh, okay.
• 32:58
  Tina Strachan: So, yeah.
• 32:59
  Tina Strachan: so so the a a right way of doing it and doing it respectfully is.
• 33:04
  Tina Strachan: They're a character'cause they're a person and they have a disability or something else, like, but it's,
• 33:11
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 33:11
  Sophie Beer: 100%.
• 33:12
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 33:12
  Sophie Beer: It's not them.
• 33:13
  Tina Strachan: thing.
• 33:13
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 33:14
  Sophie Beer: Disability isn't to define you.
• 33:15
  Sophie Beer: It's a facet of you and it just makes you live in a more creative and different way than other people.
• 33:21
  Sophie Beer: It doesn't mean that you are a lesser person or just there for inspiration.
• 33:24
  Sophie Beer: It's, it's just part of you.
• 33:26
  Sophie Beer: 'cause you're a fully formed human, you know, regardless.
• 33:29
  Sophie Beer: So,
• 33:29
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 33:30
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 33:31
  Tina Strachan: And so, as.
• 33:33
  Tina Strachan: So as someone, uh, or an author who doesn't have a disability, who doesn't come from a com, you know, tra um, diverse background, um, you know, how, what are some steps that they could take?
• 33:49
  Tina Strachan: still try and be inclusive and include characters with meaning and you know, how do they do that well?
• 33:58
  Tina Strachan: And sort of check it if that, if that makes sense.
• 34:01
  Tina Strachan: Like how can I write a character, say that's hard of hearing when I'm not hard of hearing myself?
• 34:07
  Tina Strachan: What steps could I take to make sure that I'm doing the everything right and.
• 34:13
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah, I think, uh, the number one thing I would say would be like, uh.
• 34:21
  Sophie Beer: Incidental inclus inclusivity.
• 34:24
  Sophie Beer: So just having a character that's hard of hearing, even if then, even if they're just a secondary character, a peripheral character, something like that, include it and don't make it a big deal.
• 34:32
  Sophie Beer: Um, so I I, I absolutely love it when I'm reading a book and it'll just be like, oh, this character is, you know, has this dis disability.
• 34:40
  Sophie Beer: It doesn't define them, it's just, you know, it's, it's a facet of their, their personality or their, um, who they are.
• 34:45
  Sophie Beer: But it's, you know, it doesn't define them.
• 34:47
  Sophie Beer: Like I, I, I really love that, um, because it just makes it more.
• 34:51
  Sophie Beer: Wide, wildly, widely acceptable.
• 34:53
  Sophie Beer: That, or not acceptable, and it makes it, uh, you know, uh, more common.
• 34:58
  Sophie Beer: Seeing, seeing yourself in, in print is just one of the most beautiful things in the world.
• 35:02
  Sophie Beer: And, and having more of that can never be a bad thing.
• 35:04
  Sophie Beer: But I think like also doing that in a well-researched way.
• 35:07
  Sophie Beer: Um, like if you're not confident in your ability to write a disabled character, and you, you can have them as a secondary character, but I guess.
• 35:15
  Sophie Beer: Be mindful also of not just including someone just, you know, like for brownie points being like, oh yeah, here's this, here's this character.
• 35:22
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:23
  Tina Strachan: diverse
• 35:24
  Sophie Beer: yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 35:25
  Sophie Beer: Just, um, do some research.
• 35:27
  Sophie Beer: Try to, um, read up on that disability that your character might have.
• 35:31
  Sophie Beer: Um, talk to someone with that disability because, you know, uh, disabled people aren't like.
• 35:38
  Sophie Beer: Horrified.
• 35:38
  Sophie Beer: When someone wants to talk to'em about their disability, they'll be probably be more than happy to, to talk about it because, you know, it's, it's them and it's, it, it, um, it's a part of their life and they would, they would like to share their life with people.
• 35:49
  Sophie Beer: So, uh, yeah, that's, that's always a, um, a thing to do is, yeah, just, just chat to someone with it.
• 35:54
  Sophie Beer: Or like informing yourself about, um, the disability that your character might have.
• 35:59
  Sophie Beer: Uh.
• 36:01
  Sophie Beer: Um, I chatted to a lot of people who had the, um, genetic illness that Thunderhead does in my book'cause I don't have it myself.
• 36:09
  Sophie Beer: So I wanted to be really informed about it.
• 36:11
  Sophie Beer: So I, I read a book of personal essays of people who had the, had the, um.
• 36:18
  Sophie Beer: The diagnosis.
• 36:20
  Sophie Beer: I talked to a lot of them in forums and things like that.
• 36:22
  Sophie Beer: Um, I met one, one guy who, I dunno if I need to, like, should say his name.
• 36:28
  Sophie Beer: And so, because I actually used it in the book and then my editor was like, maybe you should take it out because he might not want that.
• 36:35
  Sophie Beer: Like, want everyone knowing
• 36:37
  Tina Strachan: Or maybe he would.
• 36:38
  Sophie Beer: he would.
• 36:39
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:40
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 36:40
  Sophie Beer: Um.
• 36:41
  Sophie Beer: And, uh, yeah, and well then there was also my, my own, um, experience having a genetic illness as well, but like, you know, not the same one, but yeah, uh, similar.
• 36:51
  Sophie Beer: And, uh, so just drawing on all that mishmash of, of research and my own experience, and that was how I, um, how I wrote the character of Thunderhead.
• 37:00
  Sophie Beer: Uh, but yeah, I think just being informed and, and being willing to chat to disabled people and hear their points of view and, and, um.
• 37:10
  Sophie Beer: I guess leaving, leaving space for disabled to be able to write their own points of view too.
• 37:13
  Sophie Beer: Uh,'cause you know, there, uh, there is a lot of talk about whether non-disabled writers should write disabled characters in like a main point of view.
• 37:23
  Sophie Beer: 'cause is that like disabled?
• 37:26
  Sophie Beer: Uh, writers is that their, their purview and that should be their right to express their own stories.
• 37:31
  Sophie Beer: 'cause, um, like the book, uh, wonder by RJ Palacio, which Thunderhead has been compared to a lot, which I didn't actually think of until it was published.
• 37:40
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:41
  Sophie Beer: So, um, I know, yeah, it's very nice.
• 37:43
  Sophie Beer: It's a nice book.
• 37:44
  Sophie Beer: Uh, so the, the author RJ Palacio doesn't have troche colon syndrome, which is what the main character in, um, wonder has.
• 37:53
  Sophie Beer: But then, I mean, that ended up.
• 37:55
  Sophie Beer: Being like such a beautiful book and inspiring so many people and, you know, creating a whole, uh, movement of, of kindness and, and acceptance and inclusivity.
• 38:04
  Sophie Beer: So, yeah, I, I guess it's just treating your subject as a full person and, and just being mindful and sensitive, because I think that's exactly what RJ Palacio did with Wonder and why it became such a bestseller was that.
• 38:18
  Sophie Beer: You know, orgi, the main character is a fully rounded person with his own dreams and desires and and insecurities, and it's just really beautiful to see.
• 38:28
  Tina Strachan: And you can, um, I like how you said forums'cause I have come across.
• 38:32
  Tina Strachan: Forums.
• 38:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Tina Strachan: Before with that sort of thing.
• 38:35
  Tina Strachan: So that's for anyone that's listening, um, you can, and you're interested and you're looking up, you know, for trying to find some information on particular, you know, disabilities or even diversity, people with different kinds of backgrounds.
• 38:47
  Tina Strachan: There are quite a lot of forums out there that you can jump on and lots of people who are wanting to help and make sure that you're, you know, you're getting the right information.
• 38:56
  Tina Strachan: Um, and you can also hire sensitivity readers.
• 39:00
  Sophie Beer: Sensitivity readers.
• 39:01
  Sophie Beer: Yes.
• 39:01
  Sophie Beer: I was gonna say that.
• 39:02
  Sophie Beer: I forgot.
• 39:02
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, thank you.
• 39:04
  Sophie Beer: Sensitivity readers as well.
• 39:05
  Sophie Beer: That's a, a really good one.
• 39:06
  Sophie Beer: Um, uh, which is, you know, so you pay someone a, an amount of money to read the book and give feedback to how you handle a particular, um.
• 39:19
  Sophie Beer: Minority or a particular disability or something like that in the book.
• 39:22
  Sophie Beer: And it, it's just a really good way to kind of screen it pre-submission or pre uh, publication to make sure that you, uh, not like you've handled everything sensitively and, and in, in a, in a way that's not gonna completely offend people.
• 39:37
  Sophie Beer: Be, be really horrible.
• 39:39
  Sophie Beer: Um.
• 39:40
  Sophie Beer: I actually had my, my editor for Thunderhead, uh, the amazing Nicola ly, she, uh, they, um, actually pulled me up a few times in the book and were like, you probably shouldn't use this word here.
• 39:53
  Sophie Beer: Uh, which is, it's not, you know, it has like different connotations and, and stuff like that, which I hadn't considered, but they, they sort of, kind of, um.
• 40:02
  Sophie Beer: Pulled me up on that, which was really nice.
• 40:03
  Sophie Beer: Uh, and there was a particular instance towards the end of the book in which, um, Thunderhead gets called a freak.
• 40:13
  Sophie Beer: And I didn't actually know it, but that's a derogatory term for someone with a disability is, well, I mean, everyone, everyone knows that, knows that, but.
• 40:21
  Sophie Beer: You know, um, being able to read that sensitively from a different point of view, like you, I, as even as a hard appearing person, I would never would've considered being really offended by that.
• 40:32
  Sophie Beer: But Nicola was like, no, we, we can't let this name, let, let Thunderhead be called this name.
• 40:39
  Sophie Beer: And then nobody kind of react to it or nobody say, Hey, that's not on.
• 40:43
  Sophie Beer: Um, which I thought was a really brilliant and astute thing to say.
• 40:47
  Sophie Beer: Nicola was amazing.
• 40:49
  Tina Strachan: Publishers do know, don't they?
• 40:51
  Tina Strachan: And they, because I think they're very heightened to it, aren't they?
• 40:53
  Tina Strachan: I've had things as well picked up and just.
• 40:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, when I, when they've pointed it out to me, I'm like, oh my gosh, that was actually not anywhere near what I was thinking or meaning to do.
• 41:04
  Tina Strachan: Thank goodness that you picked that up.
• 41:06
  Tina Strachan: And they, they're just, I think they're very heightened to it, aren't they?
• 41:09
  Tina Strachan: With, um, they're just, you know, making sure that, you know, everything's inclusive and I'm sure they've, you know.
• 41:16
  Tina Strachan: Learn from mistakes in the past or Other people's mistakes.
• 41:20
  Tina Strachan: because when people, when someone gets it wrong, everyone knows about it.
• 41:24
  Tina Strachan: It's quite big, isn't it?
• 41:25
  Tina Strachan: So they just
• 41:26
  Sophie Beer: Which is exactly what, um, sensitivity readers do.
• 41:29
  Sophie Beer: Um, yeah.
• 41:30
  Sophie Beer: So, yeah, so it's a really nice way if, if you are writing a difficult character, um, who has a point of view that you, um, haven't lived yourself, you, you don't have experiential.
• 41:39
  Sophie Beer: Um, like, you know, experience with, you can just, yeah.
• 41:42
  Sophie Beer: Hire someone with experience in that background and get their, get their say on your manuscript, which is yeah.
• 41:46
  Sophie Beer: Really, really, really amazing.
• 41:48
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:49
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:49
  Tina Strachan: Because we were, you know, but one person writing this book, unless you're co-authoring, I suppose, but you know, the real world includes all these.
• 41:59
  Tina Strachan: It is so diverse.
• 42:00
  Tina Strachan: You know, there's so many different nationalities and cultures and abilities that, uh, that make up our world.
• 42:06
  Tina Strachan: So you have to write them.
• 42:08
  Tina Strachan: I, I like,'cause I, and I'm, and I'm sort of saying I'm, I'm a bit not, I'm just cautious of when I do that because I need to include, um, all those characters in my book.
• 42:17
  Tina Strachan: But I'm, but then I'm also equally as cautious of writing the wrong thing.
• 42:21
  Tina Strachan: I don't want to do the wrong thing, but they must be included.
• 42:24
  Tina Strachan: And I, is it.
• 42:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I guess it's just treading lightly.
• 42:27
  Tina Strachan: I, I had, um, sensitivity readers even for, um, the Wilder Zoo series because two of the main characters are, um, you know, one has an Indian background and, and um, one has a Japanese background and, you know, I sort of asked friends, um, and people who had that background and also had a sensitivity reader as well.
• 42:45
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I was so, like, I just wanted to.
• 42:50
  Tina Strachan: Just check off on a few different, and, and all of it was so fine.
• 42:53
  Tina Strachan: Like it's very, you know, it was very lightly, you know, added, but it, um, yeah, it was, it's, it's just I think nice and a little bit of peace of mind.
• 43:00
  Tina Strachan: And they also gave me some really good suggestions too, to make it a bit more authentic, which I didn't really think about and also pointed out a couple of things that, um, weren't particularly offensive but just, you know, oh no, we probably would do it this way or say it this way.
• 43:13
  Tina Strachan: And,
• 43:13
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 43:14
  Tina Strachan: that was nice'cause you wanna make sure you're doing the right thing, but.
• 43:17
  Tina Strachan: Um,
• 43:18
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, that's what's great about sensitivity.
• 43:20
  Sophie Beer: Yeah.
• 43:20
  Sophie Beer: It's um.
• 43:22
  Sophie Beer: Sort of like hacking into someone's brain and just
• 43:24
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 43:25
  Sophie Beer: taking their experience and, and, and the knowledge and yeah, it's really beautiful.
• 43:28
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 43:29
  Tina Strachan: And you can get them for everything, can't you?
• 43:31
  Tina Strachan: Just about, um, there's some companies that you can go through that just Yeah.
• 43:35
  Tina Strachan: Every nationality, every culture, every background, every, um, yeah.
• 43:40
  Tina Strachan: Uh, even, you know, people that are experiencing have experienced trauma in the past.
• 43:44
  Tina Strachan: You can, you can.
• 43:46
  Tina Strachan: Higher sensitivity readers to even discuss anything along those lines as well.
• 43:51
  Tina Strachan: So yeah, even just ask questions.
• 43:53
  Tina Strachan: They don't even have to read the book.
• 43:54
  Tina Strachan: You can just ask them questions even so, so
• 43:57
  Sophie Beer: Yeah, I think, um, also like people might be afraid of writing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing in a book.
• 44:04
  Sophie Beer: Um, but in my mind, as someone.
• 44:08
  Sophie Beer: Who, like, I, I don't particularly like, oh, I do.
• 44:14
  Sophie Beer: I mean, oh, such a, such a weird subject to talk about because like, I am hard of hearing, but I don't identify as disabled.
• 44:21
  Sophie Beer: Um, but it, in certain circumstances I could be, I have that identity.
• 44:28
  Sophie Beer: Um, so, you know, it's, it's um, it, it's something that is really close to my heart though.
• 44:34
  Sophie Beer: Um, but also I would much rather someone try and fail.
• 44:38
  Sophie Beer: Or try and get feedback, then someone exclude a disabled character.
• 44:43
  Sophie Beer: Um, I think the more disabled characters are put into books and the more it's normalized and the more it's accepted and the more that disabled people are seen as, as, you know, 3D humans, it's, well, that's what we are, that's the better it is, and the more richer the world will be for it.
• 45:01
  Tina Strachan: That's perfect.
• 45:02
  Tina Strachan: That's a perfect ending to our interview actually, Sophie.
• 45:05
  Tina Strachan: I think that's a great, that's a great point to end on.
• 45:08
  Tina Strachan: Um, thank you for sharing all that information.
• 45:11
  Sophie Beer: No worries.
• 45:12
  Tina Strachan: It's a really important con conversation to have.
• 45:14
  Tina Strachan: But before we go, do you have one top tip for, um, our listeners?
• 45:19
  Tina Strachan: You know, we have lots of aspiring, um, writers that are listening, but also, um, you know, lots of established writers as well.
• 45:24
  Tina Strachan: 'cause.
• 45:25
  Tina Strachan: You know, um, all our stories that we share on here and all the people we interview just have just wealth of knowledge that have, is wealth a word?
• 45:31
  Tina Strachan: Wealth of knowledge?
• 45:35
  Sophie Beer: We'll say it is now
• 45:36
  Tina Strachan: Did I just make, did I just make something up?
• 45:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, they're a wealth of knowledge and, um, have so much important information to share, but so do you have, you know, a golden tip for everybody to, who are trying to be published and are, or are trying to, um, you know, about in including diverse characters in their books?
• 45:54
  Sophie Beer: I guess, um, yeah, in including inclusion and, and, um, I.
• 46:02
  Sophie Beer: Trying, even if you don't think it's gonna be perfect is, is my biggest tip.
• 46:06
  Sophie Beer: Um, because if you don't try, then you know that that character won't, won't be there for people to fall in love with and, and to see themselves in and to be appreciated.
• 46:16
  Sophie Beer: So yeah, it's always worth trying trying.
• 46:19
  Tina Strachan: I love that.
• 46:20
  Tina Strachan: Thank you, Sophie.
• 46:21
  Tina Strachan: Thanks so much for coming on the book Deal podcast.
• 46:24
  Tina Strachan: It was so lovely to talk to you.
• 46:27
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 46:30
  Tina Strachan: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing.
• 46:39
  Tina Strachan: You can also find us on Instagram.