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Developing Leadership Skills for Managers with Tom Lawrence · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:27
  So
• 0:35
  Tom.
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  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:38
  Thanks so much for taking your time today.
• 0:41
  Oh, thank you.
• 0:41
  Thank you for having me.
• 0:43
  Most welcome.
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  So Tom focuses on leadership, but, more from the perspective of an emerging leader and
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  someone, that's either maybe been frontline and there's be developing, leadership skills
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  wanting to develop leadership skills, or is already an aspiring leader in wants to get
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  better.
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  I and I would say that that organizationally is probably one of the toughest, areas in
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  organizations for middle managers because we rely so heavily on them.
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  So, Tom, tell us a little bit about, kind of what got you on this trajectory to to help
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  senior managers, get better leadership.
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  Tell us a little bit about your story.
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  And, well, I've been in in in a leadership position, like I saw the middle management
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  leadership position myself since 2009.
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  I've been with them in the Raven industry since 2005.
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  And I've worked with a lot of different managers from different parts of the United
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  Kingdom.
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  So I worked in Liverpool in Scotland, in Edinburgh and Glasgow and also now in London
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  for 6 years, And the middle management level is where I've sort of been at for the last sort
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  of, maybe 10 to 12 years.
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  And what I've seen is it's not when when a lot of managers, when they get to sort of
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  meditation level, they think that that's it.
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  That's what makes them a leader.
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  When, yeah, they don't need any more leadership training or any more leadership skills when
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  actually, no, when you get to the management and supervisory level, that's the beginning.
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  That's when you should start your leadership training and your leadership developments and
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  your leadership journey.
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  It's not the end.
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  It's the beginning.
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  And I've seen it too too often with with with middle managers is that they don't have
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  leadership skills that service their people.
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  They don't they don't think saving their people is what leadership is about.
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  They think it's still the way around, whereas, like, the people should be serving them the
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  leader.
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  And in especially within the engineering industry, part of the of the rail industry I'm
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  from.
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  It's very much male dominated industry, and and it's very they cater this to leadership style
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  leadership rather than, you know, service provided leadership.
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  So the the reason that I wrote a book is to try and help these type, these these levels of
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  leaders or managers to change the way of thinking, to basically lead their people better
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  and treat their people better to realize that is that it is actually their responsibility to
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  grow and develop their people.
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  It's not talk of responsibility of the team to save them, if you know what I mean.
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  Do you think it's because the industry that you're in, Tom, is a very technical I would say
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  some elements of in engineering, and I've worked in my consulting role on the
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  psychological ends with the engineering firms.
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  That it's because there's they're technically driven.
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  It's kind of, you know, not that you don't need people's skills.
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  You absolutely do, but your go to or maybe the people that are attracted or fitted to those
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  organizations are more what I would say probably left brainers, less likely to be as
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  connected to the soft skills of communication.
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  Would you say that's a fair, kind of, statements about, engine engineering or
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  engineering kind of environments?
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  Yeah.
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  Definitely.
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  What normally happens is you have your team of engineers, and then you have, like, say, your
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  best engineer and what usually happens with your engineers, he or she is the one who gets
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  promoted to the manager's job when it becomes available.
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  But the difference is being an engineer and being a being a manager in a leader, a
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  completely different, you know, because you're the best engineer, that doesn't make you double
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  make you the best leader or best manager because when you get to management level or
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  leadership level, your business isn't engineered anymore.
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  It's people.
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  You're in the peaks.
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  You know, you're not in engineered anymore.
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  Your your your business is about people, and it's the same in any industry.
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  Like, you could be in the fashion industry.
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  You could be, you know, brilliance of making clothes.
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  Yes.
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  But if you get promoted to a leadership role, then your job isn't making clothes anymore,
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  it's about people.
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  And that's what managers don't don't sort of take on board is that their priority is still,
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  you know, getting the the job done, getting the the results at the end of the month for getting
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  the business growth or or something like that.
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  Wouldn't actually know.
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  Your job is people growth.
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  It's, you know, people development.
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  It's you know, developing new leaders as your role.
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  It's not about getting the job done anymore, but that's what these managers, they don't sort
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  of grasp that when they take on the new role
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  So they don't delineate what happens, unfortunately, in most firms, and I would say,
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  regardless of skill, they look at who's who's kind of done well on projects, for instance, in
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  engineering or, different kinds of environments, but sometimes those people they'd
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  be good at the actual technical skill of the job, but they're not they have limited capacity
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  and sometimes limited ability, and we could talk more about that to be able to connect with
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  people.
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  And what what we know with leadership is you know, we wanna be led, all of us, regardless.
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  Right?
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  We spend so much time.
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  You know, maybe we used to be able to stay at work versus home, but we're even if we're We're
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  still working a lot, and we wanna be connected to the people that we work with.
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  But if we have a leader that is disconnected, oftentimes, I think you get I would say it's
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  probably 65 to 75 percent productivity with someone just because they have the scale, but
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  if they're connected, you do get higher, levels of productivity apps absolutely.
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  Would you agree with that?
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  Yeah.
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  Definitely.
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  I mean, if you're I mean, there's a difference between, you know, following a manager on a
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  leader.
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  You you you follow a manager because you have to, you know, he or she is in the management
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  position, and you have to follow them because, you know, that's how you get paid at the end of
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  the month, so that's how you, you know, keep your job.
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  But with a leader, you follow a leader because you want to there's a huge difference between
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  having to follow with either and wanting to.
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  Now, when you want to follow with either you're following a role model, you're following
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  someone you aspire to to be someone who you aspire to maybe replace their position one day
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  because you want that you you want to have the same influence on your your people as they're
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  having on you, you know, so so that they're they're inspiring you to to become a better
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  person.
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  It's not just all being good at the job or become better at the job, but it's all living a
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  better life.
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  It's all, you know, because as you as you just well said before, you know, there isn't there
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  there's, you know, the professional life and personal life, both if in your prefer
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  professional life, if you're having a bad day, interferes and interacts and influences your
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  personal life.
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  Cause if you have a bad day at work because you have a running with your boss, so You have a, a
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  poor experience with your boss.
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  When you go home, you know, you don't just flip a switch and, you know, it all you're you're
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  totally happy again.
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  You still gonna be on the back of your mind.
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  You're still gonna be thinking about it.
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  So it does in, you know, it it will influence your behavior at home.
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  So that's the to lead the ship in the job, it goes far beyond the job.
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  So that that's what my my board manages the leaders about is.
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  Going beyond the position.
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  It's about, you know, how how you sort of not just develop your people to be better at the
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  job, but to live better lives,
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  So, you talk a lot about influence and I I wanna ask you two questions.
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  First of all, you you I think you articulated it, but I wanted you to kind of So a manager,
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  what is the difference between a manager and a leader and the skills associated with a manager
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  versus a leader?
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  Well, a manager manages, like, processes, policies, procedures, admin things, you know,
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  you know, like, they manage things, like, manage time.
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  You manage, you know, sort of material things where there's lead that a lead that influences
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  and leads people.
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  The the difference between a manager and a lead that is people and things.
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  So I think because you in the workplace, you do you you hear a lot about, you know, people
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  managers managing people.
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  Know, you don't manage people.
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  That's what creates toxic cultures.
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  That's what creates, you know, or performance in teams because you people are being managed
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  rather than led and inspired and motivated.
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  So that's the difference one one person influences and leads people and one manages and
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  manages processes, things, and policies, and procedures.
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  So I see the difference between management and leadership.
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  Oh, absolutely.
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  And I think, that's that really makes sense, right, because I think, unfortunately, and when
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  we talk about micromanaging, that whole concept comes up, right?
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  Like, who wants to be micromanaged?
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  Like, I'm a, you know, a psychotherapist.
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  I was a you know, an executive for years, and I managed, you know, quite a big portfolio.
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  But oftentimes, I would get micromanage by, my senior leadership team based on my portfolio.
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  And I'd be like, okay.
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  Well, you hired me for this capacity.
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  Obviously, I'm bringing the skill set But then you're still micromanaging me, which was a
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  really, really good way to demotivate me because, you know, I didn't feel good about the
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  management I was having.
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  But the leaders that were in aspiring to me or influential to your point with your book.
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  Those are the ones, I wanted to work really, really hard for because regarding I knew what I
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  was doing But because I wanted to make sure that they, were happy with my performance and,
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  my relationship with with them was important Tom, I worked that much harder.
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  Exactly.
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  That's the difference.
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  It's like, when when you're inspired by by a lead, that you do, you wanna weigh your best
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  for and you wanna give your best.
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  But it's when you micromanaged.
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  I mean, I've been micromanaged numerous times by different managers and and the biggest thing
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  that I feel when I feel micromanaged is they don't trust me to do the job.
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  They're on my back because because of a lack of trust.
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  It's like, well, what is what is it that I've done that's made you not trust me?
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  You know, why do they not bring that up with me?
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  Instead of doing
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  So if you've not had a performance issue, it's not it's it's not related to performance.
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  Where is this lack of trust coming from?
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  Right?
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  Like, I mean, hard.
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  I I remember in different environments for myself.
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  I've also, you know, been a leader in in various roles, and I was really aware that what
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  people needed to know is that they needed to experience me as a person.
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  You know, not that they need to know all the nuances of me, but if they could relate to me,
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  then we were able to kind of connect and then jobs got done.
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  If someone was disconnected, you could see the difference.
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  Almost, it's almost like a bit of a pull in pull and tug, you know, to kind of, you know,
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  create that energy to have a workflow kind of, seamless.
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  Whereas if I was connected to someone, it was it was quite easy to do.
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  Yeah.
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  Exactly.
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  And when when I say, like, no lack of trust, I mean, the reason that the that people micro
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  manage as well, or one of the main reasons people micro manage is because they're insecure
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  within themselves.
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  They don't trust themselves, you know, they don't trust themselves to give their power
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  away, you know, so like, I mean, that's what empower means is to give your power away.
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  So if you if you can't trust yourself to give your power to someone else, then that's where
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  the micromanagement comes from because you're not, you know, you're not sort of letting your
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  pass, letting your team, perform because of your own lack of ability or or your own lack of
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  self belief or your own lack of trust within yourself.
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  Absolutely.
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  And, you know, my new book, which is coming out not too long from now, Tom, probably about 2
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  months.
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  It it's, you know, we it's about, you know, authentic heart leadership.
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  Right?
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  Because really if we look at it and if we look at someone that's aware, you know, why did you
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  get into leading?
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  What's your what's your story?
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  What values do you bring?
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  If I know that and I bring that to the to the environment, I'm bringing my whole self.
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  But if I kind of, to your point, I'm, you know, unable to let go of control or have fears
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  within myself that translates out into how I connect with others and then in turn how I
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  lead.
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  So, you know, so that's such a vital vital thing for that awareness for people that, like
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  you said, people that want to lead, right, where and and be influential, if if I trust you
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  and I like what I see, I'm gonna follow you.
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  But if I'm kind of uncertain, I'm gonna be thinking, no, I'm not so sure I'm gonna do
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  this.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  Exactly.
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  I'm people who who follow managers because they have to.
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  What you what you know, what you see in the workplace, so what I've seen is people will
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  give the minimal effort that they can just to get the job
• 14:00
  done.
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  Absolutely.
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  Just to get to the end of the 8 hours of the day and then and go home.
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  Getting through a day.
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  Yeah.
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  I
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  hear that.
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  I hear how I'm just gonna get through the day.
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  I'm gonna get through the quarter.
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  I'm gonna do what I gotta do.
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  Now let's talk a little bit about, this time, right, because, you know, we're talking about
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  trust.
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  Right?
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  And I, you know, maybe maybe in London where you are, different environments here in North
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  America had to, quote, unquote, pivot and go virtual.
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  Right?
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  So here you go from what what I would call in my time in corporate FaceTime, which meant I
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  know what you're up to, to other than Zoom or teams or whatever, I now have to completely
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  explicitly trust you in every way because now we're at home.
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  So what did you find in the workplace around, companies being able to, I'm gonna use the word
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  lean because I'm gonna say that a lot of them probably you managed?
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  Well, at the very beginning, I'd say, when we went to lockdown in March slash, like, a year
• 15:06
  ago, at the very, very beginning, we were asked to put a daily plan together of everything that
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  we were doing, like, absolutely every single and I I'm a I'm a leader of 9 people.
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  So I was going I had to go to my team and say to them, you know, I need a plan from you every
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  single day of what you're doing.
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  I didn't want to sue myself.
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  I did that.
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  I mean, after the 1st week of that happening, I said to them, like, scrap the plans.
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  I'm not doing this anymore.
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  You could then put in a plan together every single day.
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  We'll take them an hour a day.
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  So that's an hour.
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  Just just put in a planter that that no one needs But the reason that my leaders are asking
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  for is because it as you say, that they were they were micro managers, and and they didn't
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  trust us, but after a while, what I found was when I, you know, once I, spoke with these
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  leaders and sort of, led led them in a way, I I I was sort of giving giving them the message
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  that, you know, it the more you do this, the more people are gonna get upset about and the
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  lack and and the and the the the less productivity you're gonna see, especially with
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  with now we're all working from home, whereas, you know, the deception is productivity will go
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  down.
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  And in the beginning, it did.
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  Oh, because, we have no choice now but to become leaders, what I found that my team was
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  we we actually became better collaborators, better communicators, better connectors, and
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  our productivity and our performance went up.
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  And how I did that was, you know, I just had a a morning call with every single member of the
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  team, just before the start of the day, just just I didn't say anything about the job or
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  what they were doing during the day.
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  It was just how are you?
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  Do you have everything that you need?
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  And is there anything that I can do for you today?
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  And that was basically the whole conversation every single day, and I just let them know that
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  the end of the call, if you need me today, just call me anytime.
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  Don't email me, you know, just in case I'm not in the house or whatever.
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  Just call me straight away, and I'll and I'll answer, you know, and and that's basically all
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  all I did.
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  And a lot of the other leaders within the organizations have same thing.
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  I'm sort of followed our lead as followed our team's lead.
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  We did, we should be sorting our productivity and our performance go up.
• 17:24
  Well, obviously, and I think, you know, if you think about the pandemic, everything was based
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  on fear for real reason in lots of ways, because Europe, you guys were, you know, well
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  ahead of us, and we're, like, looking at you going, oh, yeah.
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  That's Europe.
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  And then showing after it came not too long after with us.
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  We start to see the vast amount of numbers.
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  But initially, I think everybody was in panic, so they were all coming from a place of fear.
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  Which is what what you're describing, Tom.
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  And then, like, you know, at some point, I think people had to recalibrate and say, okay.
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  We're all scared here.
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  But how is it that we let you know, which is like you're talking about connection, which is
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  what you did.
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  Here, this is kinda cruddy for all of us.
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  We're all in this together, how is it, you know, how is it that we can join and, you know,
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  kind of figure out what we need to do to be able to start work again?
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  But I think, unfortunately, there's other the companies that figured it out like you guys did
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  and other companies that didn't get it.
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  That missed the work.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  Exactly.
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  I mean, you know, this was a massive up.
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  I mean, you you look at this pandemic as a huge opportunity for us to improve on our leadership
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  and to sort of take care of our people better, you know, to, treat them better.
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  And and that's something how that's how we sold it.
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  I mean, when we go when when this pandemic, you know, eventually does, you know, if it will
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  ever come to an end, but, you know, if if we're all able to go back to the office again and go
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  back to the way things wear.
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  I mean, I don't want things to go back the way things wear.
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  I want I want things to to to improve from where we are now.
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  You know, I I want to have to wait the the collaboration, the the communication that we've
• 19:07
  got now, I want this to improve.
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  You know, I I wanna still be, you know, following our team up, every day asking them
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  how they are.
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  If there's anything that they need from me, just make just letting them know that I'm here
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  and I'm present for them.
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  You know, even if it's, you know, if we're all in the same office again, then the way I'll do
• 19:24
  that is they just, you know, going over a person's desk, asking how they are.
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  Whereas in beforehand, it was, you know, the only reason you were going to have heard or
• 19:33
  someone would come over to my desk was to see what was going on with the job.
• 19:37
  Right.
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  So I think, you know, when I'm I've been out of corporate now for 10 years.
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  And at the time that I left, it was still pretty much like that.
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  In, in, you know, Toronto, Vancouver, lots of bigger nerve centers in that, you know, it was
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  like, you have, you had these big you know, like you said, projects you're working on.
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  You're having meetings that are specific to a goal.
• 20:00
  Right?
• 20:01
  There was no how you doing Roxanne.
• 20:03
  You know, how's the family and what's new, you know, in your neighborhood?
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  But guess what?
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  We've been flipped over the other way, and there's always been talked about that need for
• 20:12
  us to connect with people, but the pandemic, you know, I would think out of adversity, we've
• 20:18
  gained a lot of good things.
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  And to your point, we shouldn't go back to the other way.
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  We should bring all the learnings, even if we do kind of a hybrid model between virtual and
• 20:29
  in office again.
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  And bring the skills that we've learned to communicate with us and this whole element of
• 20:36
  trust truly people have had to learn even if they had issues of trust prior to the pandemic.
• 20:43
  It had to learn how to figure out how to develop relatively quickly and and talk to
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  their kind of shortcomings and develop the skill or say, look, I know I'm not very good at
• 20:53
  this, but I I've gotta figure it out.
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  And at least they joined with peoples to be able to kind of work together.
• 20:59
  And, I mean, what you just said there, but, like, saying that, you know, I don't I'm I'm
• 21:03
  not used to this yet.
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  You know, I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm sort of still working on, you know, getting better at
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  these, leadership or building trust and stuff like that, although, influencing the team.
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  But if you if you're telling your team that, you know, You just wasn't making yourself
• 21:19
  vulnerable to the team.
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  That shows the strength.
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  You know what I mean?
• 21:23
  That's not that shows the strength to the team, and that that actually does build trust when
• 21:27
  you when you show your vulnerability to the team and they're saying that I don't know
• 21:31
  something or I need help, you know, the far more likely to help you, you know, whereas if
• 21:38
  you'd before, if you would imagine, I, as I say, within my industry, shown vulnerability or
• 21:44
  saying that you don't know something was a sign of weakness or was was was viewed upon as a
• 21:49
  sign of weakness when it's actually not.
• 21:50
  It's a sign of strength.
• 21:52
  Right?
• 21:53
  But I think it took this for us to, you know, we always said that in in in corporate sectors,
• 21:58
  but now what we're realizing, you know, is that If you want people to get creative and take
• 22:04
  chances, they have to we talk about, you know, filters when you succeed, but when we're
• 22:09
  already living that, I don't think so.
• 22:12
  And now we've been forced to because we've been feeling in lots of different ways through this
• 22:16
  pandemic.
• 22:17
  And now people have to know that it's okay to make mistakes so that they will take chances
• 22:22
  again.
• 22:23
  Yeah.
• 22:23
  Exactly.
• 22:24
  I mean, I mean, because as you say, like, it's very it was always written on your on your
• 22:30
  vision and values boards and and the in the in the big corporations that you see on big post
• 22:34
  you know, I, land from failure and all that stuff.
• 22:39
  What actually do you really land from failure?
• 22:41
  Are you allowed to land?
• 22:42
  You know, would you lead that or your manager?
• 22:44
  Allow you to fail.
• 22:46
  You know what?
• 22:46
  Absolutely.
• 22:47
  It's one thing to say it.
• 22:49
  It's it's another thing when you're actually feeling and the response that you get.
• 22:52
  And, unfortunately, what we with a lot of senior teams, a lot of people aren't being as
• 22:57
  creative because they are afraid to sit talk about their shortcomings, which in turn, that's
• 23:02
  a cycle.
• 23:03
  But if people are able to say, I just screwed that up, and, you know, okay, you know, I'm
• 23:08
  sharing with you and to get that acknowledgement, look, we're all human beings.
• 23:12
  We all make mistakes, but allow people that space so that they can just go on and then some
• 23:18
  of the most creative things come out of, people recognizing from mistakes, right?
• 23:23
  But if you're kind of consistently stifling people, then how do they develop that, you
• 23:28
  know, that capacity?
• 23:29
  If you're not allowed to fail and and and then when you do, think, oh, no.
• 23:34
  What's gonna happen now?
• 23:35
  You know, you you're not gonna learn.
• 23:37
  You're you're not gonna see that as an opportunity to to learn, you you're gonna
• 23:43
  either, you know, make it as an excuse to give up, or you're just gonna do nothing.
• 23:48
  You're just gonna stay exactly where you are with us.
• 23:51
  I'm just saying that making mistakes and and and and failing at something is is an
• 23:55
  opportunity to get better at it.
• 23:57
  You know, like in anything, but as you say, if you if your leader is not allowing you to do
• 24:02
  that, then that's where that fear comes from, the fear factor of of of failure.
• 24:06
  So let's talk a little bit about let's say I'm I've just been kind of promoted, I'm a big
• 24:14
  primary manager, and I maybe I have some skills, but I'm, yeah, I'm not so good at it.
• 24:20
  And I wanna get better.
• 24:21
  I wanna eventually kind of create a a path, to becoming a leader?
• 24:26
  What are some of the core fundamental steps that I should be taking or considering taking,
• 24:34
  Tom, to to to be be in the trajectory to become a leader.
• 24:38
  The best way I see as improving as a leader is you've got to work on yourself every single
• 24:44
  day.
• 24:44
  You know, you've got to work even if it's just a small thing or or know, read books, read
• 24:50
  leadership books, you know, watch, leadership videos on YouTube, attend online courses, you
• 24:58
  know, you can you can look at 3 online courses.
• 25:01
  You can see you can pay the online courses.
• 25:04
  Seminars, webinars, you do all that you can to develop yourself as a leader.
• 25:10
  Oh, and then once you've got that knowledge, The the only thing you can do then is practice.
• 25:16
  As you say, practice makes perfect.
• 25:18
  And, you know, you you don't become a leader by reading books all day.
• 25:23
  Or you can gain the knowledge and then, when you go to the workplace or or even when you're
• 25:28
  at home, you know, if you've got a family and you got, you know, you wife or a husband and
• 25:32
  you have you have children, you can practice leadership skills with your children because at
• 25:36
  the end of the day, you're your children's leader.
• 25:39
  You know, there's no difference between being a manager of a team of 9 people or being a father
• 25:44
  of 4 boy 4 boys or 4 girls.
• 25:47
  You know what I mean?
• 25:48
  The only thing you can do is is gain the knowledge, but then use that knowledge and and
• 25:53
  practice it and and put it into practice because a lot of companies don't I mean,
• 25:58
  there's a lot of companies that do do leadership development, but they only do it for
• 26:02
  certain people or certain level.
• 26:04
  They don't do it for everybody whereas leadership development should be absolutely
• 26:09
  everybody in the company because, you know, a leader's leadership is not a title.
• 26:14
  It's not a position.
• 26:15
  It's not a, you know, a a a right sort or, and it's like that, a leadership, everybody in the
• 26:21
  world can become a leader.
• 26:23
  We've all got the ability to influence So, therefore, we've all got the ability to lead.
• 26:27
  So and and the the best way to do it is to develop yourself and I should say is just to,
• 26:33
  by part of that development, it's important to practice what you learn.
• 26:37
  I'm just trying to it's interesting you say that, right, because, with a lot of my research
• 26:41
  for my book, I, the most connected authentic leaders that I interviewed for the book.
• 26:48
  What they said is there's no difference for me at home or at work.
• 26:52
  And that sometimes when they were training or or trying to get better at scale, they would
• 26:57
  ask their child that maybe they had the most kind of, contentious relationship with, you
• 27:04
  know, what is it that they did well?
• 27:06
  What don't they do well?
• 27:07
  What could they get better at?
• 27:09
  And what what helped them, you know, to evolve the relationship with that child sometimes
• 27:13
  becomes a template for them to think about we have we don't have employees that we go along
• 27:18
  with famously because we just have are in sync, but it helped them to grow with the with the
• 27:22
  employees that they had sometimes had a different kind of interaction with.
• 27:27
  So you're so right.
• 27:28
  We're all we all lead, right, whether it's in our home or community, you know, wherever we
• 27:34
  go, we are leading.
• 27:35
  And if we understand ourselves and what we, you know, and we know what what we want to how we
• 27:41
  want to be led as well.
• 27:42
  Then you're able to kind of, you know, think if I need that, why doesn't everybody else around
• 27:47
  me need it?
• 27:47
  So I think it's, that's a great point.
• 27:49
  We are leading I say for I always say from the time we open our eyes in some capacity till we
• 27:55
  close them again, we're leading in different roles in our life throughout
• 27:58
  Yeah.
• 27:59
  Definitely.
• 27:59
  And and that's why, as I say, everybody in in the workplace needs leadership departments and
• 28:04
  and personal growth.
• 28:07
  Help with their own medicinal growth because that's what a leader.
• 28:09
  That's what a leader does is is the it's their responsibility to grow and develop their
• 28:13
  people.
• 28:14
  And the best way to do that is to help your your team grow and help your team develop.
• 28:20
  You know, they've they've got to most of it by themselves or as the leader, you know, it's
• 28:25
  it's it's your responsibility to help them and make sure that, you know, they're on the right
• 28:29
  path and that they have everything they need and you know, and, and that you're, you know,
• 28:33
  you're offering your service to them.
• 28:35
  That's exactly what leadership is.
• 28:36
  It's an active service.
• 28:37
  It's it's you know, it's not a a right for for you to be served by others.
• 28:42
  It's for you to to save others.
• 28:45
  With with them, I mean, with your own personal growth, I'll say to to become a better leader
• 28:49
  is to develop yourself, but also have that leader or that for that role model you can
• 28:55
  aspire to be.
• 28:56
  Or, or, you know, some or one day replace?
• 29:01
  So this is already fascinating.
• 29:04
  Sure you have a lot of people that are thinking mobile.
• 29:07
  I'm managing all the time.
• 29:08
  I wanna be a better leader.
• 29:11
  Or you're probably having even leaders recognizing that maybe how they're stifling
• 29:15
  some of their managers that maybe can evolve.
• 29:18
  So where is it that people can get a hold of the book, first of all, or even if people are
• 29:24
  ever wanting to coach or, have you, connect with them to help them out.
• 29:30
  Where tell everyone where they can meet you, Tom.
• 29:32
  I would you can go to my website.
• 29:34
  It's called highly effective leader.com.
• 29:38
  And you've there's all my there's all my particles.
• 29:41
  There's, all my materials on there.
• 29:44
  I've got an on I've got one online course called the growth mindset for leaders, but I'm
• 29:49
  actually I'm in the middle of, developing another 11 online courses So within the next
• 29:55
  sort of form, 4 to 5 months, I'll have 12 online courses uploaded.
• 29:59
  You can get the book from Amazon.
• 30:02
  Called manager to leader and the subtitle of the book is how to become a highly effective
• 30:06
  leader.
• 30:08
  And you can know that you can you can get get that from Amazon as a or you or you can go to,
• 30:14
  a site called inbox to read.com.
• 30:17
  That's box with a number 2.
• 30:19
  Read.com.
• 30:20
  You can get it there if you if you want an ebook.
• 30:23
  And you can you can you can find me on LinkedIn.
• 30:26
  I'm a a Tom Lawrence on LinkedIn.
• 30:29
  And my YouTube channel is called Leadership And Growth.
• 30:33
  At the moment, there's about 39, videos on Leadership personal growth and influence.
• 30:40
  And I'll be putting out more videos soon once I've completed my online courses.
• 30:45
  Awesome.
• 30:46
  Well, I'm sure they'll be able to find you.
• 30:49
  So so what did I learn today?
• 30:51
  I, you know, I learned that, you know, with me talking leadership all the time that we should
• 30:58
  not expect anything from others we're not able to have within ourselves.
• 31:01
  So as, if you are a leader, and you know that there's gaps or blind spots that you have.
• 31:11
  You know, focus on what you need to to be better at those things and your best audience
• 31:15
  are the people around you.
• 31:17
  And if you know things aren't going well with an interaction, have the capacity or try to
• 31:22
  develop the capacity to ask, the individuals around you, what is it they that they need
• 31:27
  different from you And then that's when you can go back, reflect, think about what you need
• 31:32
  develop and come come forward again.
• 31:34
  So, again, thanks so much, Tom, for coming on, for anyone wanting information, you can reach
• 31:41
  me at roxanderahodge.com.
• 31:43
  I speak on authentic leadership and teams.
• 31:46
  Okay?
• 31:47
  Take care.
• 31:47
  We'll talk to you soon.
• 31:50
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 31:53
  Create the roxanne Durgesh.com/blueprint.
• 32:07
  We'll see you next time.
• 32:08
  An authentic living with Roxanne.