Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / NT Police Serge Bouma and Neil Hayes discuss the importance of speaking out about mental health struggles and asking for help

Transcript

NT Police Serge Bouma and Neil Hayes discuss the importance of speaking out about mental health struggles and asking for help · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We know that mental health within the police force, it
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: has been an area of real concern in recent months,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and I think it's safe to say that it is
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  Speaker 1: an area of concern all the time, because there is
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  Speaker 1: an expectation, of course that police, in their everyday lives
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  Speaker 1: go and attend some pretty horrific and difficult situations. For many,
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  Speaker 1: attending domestic violence incidents, assaults and road fatalities is all
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  Speaker 1: just part of their day jobs, but for some it
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  Speaker 1: does indeed have an accumulating impact that can have well
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  Speaker 1: a dehabilitating impact eventually. So joining me in the studio
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  Speaker 1: this morning are two police officers who I've known for
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  Speaker 1: quite some time in fact, and I am joined right
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  Speaker 1: now by Neil Hayes, who is indeed the superintendent within
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  Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police. Good morning to you, Neil, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: very well, thank you. And Serge Boemer, Good morning to you, Sirge.
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  Speaker 1: You are indeed senior sergeant, I should say now I've
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  Speaker 1: known you for quite some time. In fact, you used
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  Speaker 1: to come into the studio so many years ago every
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  Speaker 1: second week and talk to us about the different road
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  Speaker 1: incidents you know, happening around the place, and for a
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  Speaker 1: while there you know I didn't see you for quite
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  Speaker 1: some time, and I've got to say I didn't really
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  Speaker 1: know why we didn't see you for quite some time,
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  Speaker 1: but I've since learned that you suffered from PTSD.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously I came in here and spoke to you
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  Speaker 2: about the various road trauma and other road incidents on
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  Speaker 2: a regular basis when I was the OIC of Darne
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  Speaker 2: Traffic and even the Superintendent of Road Policing acting Superintendent.
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  Speaker 2: And at that time I was still one of these
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  Speaker 2: people that didn't have a lot of self awareness. I
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  Speaker 2: joined the Northern Territory Police. Obviously I was mature age,
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  Speaker 2: I was thirty, and I.
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  Speaker 3: Was very excited about starting my career.
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  Speaker 2: I went to Catherine, and I within a week of
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  Speaker 2: of starting in Catherine, I was I went to a
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  Speaker 2: fatal crash, laying in the front cabin of an upturned
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  Speaker 2: van supporting a lady's head as she was dying. And
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  Speaker 2: I at the time, I mean that was a traumatic experience,
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  Speaker 2: obviously very traumatic for her family and the loved ones,
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  Speaker 2: but also for the people that were there. But I
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  Speaker 2: didn't realize that that was the case. I was just
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  Speaker 2: doing my job and it really I guess activated a
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  Speaker 2: passion in me pursuing crash investigation. So I chased that
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  Speaker 2: for my early career and for a significant period of time,
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  Speaker 2: which is how I ended up coming to you every
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  Speaker 2: fortnight to talk to you about road policing. I went
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  Speaker 2: to a myriad of crashes and at some point, I
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  Speaker 2: again self awareness wasn't there, and I I had a
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  Speaker 2: complete mental collapse. I was unable to function as a
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  Speaker 2: police officer.
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  Speaker 3: I was unable to.
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  Speaker 2: Function as a member of society. I was unable to
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  Speaker 2: function as a family member, really as a husband and father.
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  Speaker 2: I I had nothing left, and that's why you stopped
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  Speaker 2: seeing me. And it took me a long time and
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  Speaker 2: a lot of therapy and a lot of help to
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  Speaker 2: get to a point where I was able to eventually
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  Speaker 2: go back to work and start a gradual return to work.
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  Speaker 2: And now I'm happy to say that I'm fully back
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  Speaker 2: at work.
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  Speaker 3: With Neil's help. Where now.
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  Speaker 2: Going and seeing our new recruits prior to going out
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  Speaker 2: on the road, and I tell them the raw stuff
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  Speaker 2: of my story and really encouraging them to remove the stigma,
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  Speaker 2: because the stigma exists in individuals' heads and it's up
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  Speaker 2: to them to really remove that stigma and start talking
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  Speaker 2: to each other and start identifying when things are going
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  Speaker 2: wrong or the person doesn't look quite right, and from
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  Speaker 2: the other side when and I encourage them when they
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  Speaker 2: are approached by someone who asks and if they're okay,
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  Speaker 2: clearly those people have identified something.
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  Speaker 3: You need to be open and receptive as well.
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  Speaker 1: So it's you know, I can't imagine how difficult it
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  Speaker 1: must be for, you know, for some of our offices
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  Speaker 1: each and every day to see the different things that
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  Speaker 1: you see. I often say, you know, you run towards
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  Speaker 1: the danger when others are running away from it. And
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  Speaker 1: I think that that's so well known within the community,
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  Speaker 1: but very often we don't think about the you know,
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  Speaker 1: the accumulating impact that that might have on our on
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  Speaker 1: our police officers, on our frontline offices. You know, you
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  Speaker 1: said that you'd reach that point where you know, you
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  Speaker 1: couldn't you couldn't go to work anymore.
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  Speaker 3: And I was on my way to work and I
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  Speaker 3: couldn't make it in.
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  Speaker 2: I literally I made it in, but I couldn't talk
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  Speaker 2: to anyone.
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  Speaker 3: I had nothing.
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  Speaker 1: It must have been bloody hard for you then to
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  Speaker 1: you know, like, when you've reached that point to sort
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  Speaker 1: of go, shiit, what do I do now?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what we're trying to get to. We're
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  Speaker 2: trying to get to people and get people to be
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  Speaker 2: self aware before it gets to that point, because when
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  Speaker 2: it gets to that point, it gets really hard because
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  Speaker 2: you can't talk to anyone, you don't know what's happening,
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  Speaker 2: and you haven't identified any.
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  Speaker 3: Of these things previously.
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  Speaker 2: There were plenty of intervention points for me that I'm
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  Speaker 2: now aware of in hindsight where someone else could have
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  Speaker 2: jumped in. And I'm not blaming anyone else, and I
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  Speaker 2: could have done something. I could have identified things, but
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  Speaker 2: I just wasn't self aware, and you know, other people
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  Speaker 2: may have been too scared to raise things with me.
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  Speaker 2: My wife did raise things with me, but I sort
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  Speaker 2: of fobbed it off. So yeah, I clawed my way back,
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  Speaker 2: and it's possible, so.
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  Speaker 1: You know, and it's it is wonderful, you know, to
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  Speaker 1: hear that you did claw your way back and what
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  Speaker 1: you've done, I think it's so incredibly strong and and admirable.
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  Speaker 1: And I know that you know that you have had
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  Speaker 1: the support of some of your co workers and and
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  Speaker 1: you and well Neil Hayes do indeed talk to those
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  Speaker 1: new recruits. Now, now you two have almost got a
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  Speaker 1: bit of a bromance.
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  Speaker 4: I've got to say, through.
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  Speaker 1: Throughout the different times that I've that I've interviewed the
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  Speaker 1: pair of you, there is no doubt that you get
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  Speaker 1: along really well, you know, as colleagues. And and I've
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  Speaker 1: no doubt that when you speak to those new recruits
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  Speaker 1: as well, that it that it'd have quite an impact
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  Speaker 1: on them hearing your story surge and then you know,
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  Speaker 1: you're both sort of talking to them about making sure
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  Speaker 1: that they do get that help and and and you know,
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  Speaker 1: recognize those intervention points.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: Look, Cadie, obviously I've worked with Search to the recruitment side,
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  Speaker 5: and that's where we sort of form the friendship that
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  Speaker 5: we've now got. It's not coworkers, you know, we're our friends.
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  Speaker 5: And like Search said, watching the transformation from a couple
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  Speaker 5: of days a week to him to where he was,
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  Speaker 5: he was open and raw with me and honest a
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  Speaker 5: couple of years ago and told me his story. And
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  Speaker 5: I think we sort of formed that idea way back
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  Speaker 5: when you know, at some point, do you think you
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  Speaker 5: can say, you know, give this message so that someone
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  Speaker 5: else doesn't have to go through what you're going through
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  Speaker 5: so that we can try and educate so that it's
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  Speaker 5: you know, we're not picking up the piece and trying
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  Speaker 5: to put people back together. Let's try and get in
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  Speaker 5: that preventative space in the early intervention. And you know,
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  Speaker 5: to his credit, like to be on live radio and
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  Speaker 5: to be being as raw as he is and to
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  Speaker 5: stand in front of a room full of strangers and
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  Speaker 5: to tell them in detail what he went through, he's amazing,
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  Speaker 5: you know. So from my part, you know, it's a
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  Speaker 5: matter of like, let's continue to spread that message because
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  Speaker 5: it is. It's a challenging role. You know, we've both
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  Speaker 5: been doing this a couple of decades now, so you know,
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  Speaker 5: some people are able to go through and you see
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  Speaker 5: the things.
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  Speaker 4: But it may not have the same impact.
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  Speaker 5: And we just want everyone that's in this field and
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  Speaker 5: in the police find emergency service to have an open
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  Speaker 5: mind that the support service is available, but it's not
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  Speaker 5: normal to see the things that we see and that
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  Speaker 5: you need to be aware you need to seek help
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  Speaker 5: early otherwise things can fall apart. But we also want
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  Speaker 5: to send that message that look, it may but there
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  Speaker 5: is a road back. But you know you've got to
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  Speaker 5: be open and engaged to it. But we've got to
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  Speaker 5: remove that stigma. The stigma about it is what has
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  Speaker 5: to go.
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  Speaker 1: There's still some of that, you know, that stigma within
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  Speaker 1: the force. You know that you that you do need
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  Speaker 1: to be bulletproof.
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  Speaker 2: You put that pressure on yourself. Yeah, you start as
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  Speaker 2: a police officer. You're you're the strong person in the community.
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  Speaker 2: You're the one that protects everyone. You're not the one
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  Speaker 2: that's supposed to break. So I think that, like I said,
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  Speaker 2: I think the stigma is something that exists inside people's
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  Speaker 2: heads because you can't be that vulnerable because you have
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  Speaker 2: to protect everyone else. And the truth is we're all
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  Speaker 2: human beings and everyone is vulnerable at some point. And
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  Speaker 2: I just really feel like if we can get people
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  Speaker 2: to recognize that and say, you know what, mental health,
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  Speaker 2: it's just like any other health problem.
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  Speaker 3: And I don't particularly like the term PTSD.
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  Speaker 2: I know internationally there's some push to change it to PtSi,
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  Speaker 2: which is post traumatic stress injury, and I think it's
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  Speaker 2: more fitting because I think if I think the word
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  Speaker 2: disorder is stigmatizing in itself, so I think those sorts
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  Speaker 2: of things are important as well to recognize it as
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  Speaker 2: an injury, and I recognize it as an injury.
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  Speaker 3: I could have done more had I been self aware.
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  Speaker 5: We're getting better, we really are, Like from the changes
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  Speaker 5: that I've seen across two decades of policing to around now.
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  Speaker 5: The people are more open to talk and to see help,
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  Speaker 5: which is great, but there's still a lot of work
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  Speaker 5: to do. So yeah, there is still that you know,
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  Speaker 5: this is just a uniform at the end of the day,
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  Speaker 5: it's not a superman. So you know, we are vulnerable
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  Speaker 5: were our people, and we as police need to recognize
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  Speaker 5: that as well. But you know, I think the message
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  Speaker 5: we're trying to push is that the new people coming through,
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  Speaker 5: the people that you're sitting in the car alongside for
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  Speaker 5: eight hours, you're going to be one that's going to
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  Speaker 5: be noticing it against your peers, and to be open
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  Speaker 5: and honest with it and so to get rid of
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  Speaker 5: that stigma so they can hold that conversation and they
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  Speaker 5: can take care of each other.
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  Speaker 4: You know, you've got your ru ok, but you've got
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  Speaker 4: to mean it.
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  Speaker 5: You've actually and if someone says it to you've got
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  Speaker 5: to be able to respond to. Surge said it's throw
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  Speaker 5: away lines. We need to talk so you know, as
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  Speaker 5: soon as we can get rid of that stigma and
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  Speaker 5: start helping each other. And it's not just our industry,
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  Speaker 5: but you know, it's.
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  Speaker 1: Well exactly right. You know, it's across the board, and
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  Speaker 1: you know, and I know that it is something that
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  Speaker 1: I don't know why.
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  Speaker 4: I know.
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  Speaker 1: It's like I know it is difficult for women as
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  Speaker 1: well to talk about these types of issues, but for
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  Speaker 1: some reason, it seems to be more difficult for men.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, it is like it's something that I
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  Speaker 1: that men's health is something that I'm really passionate about.
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  Speaker 1: I think, you know, well, everybody is so important within
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  Speaker 1: our communities, but blokes are so important within our communities
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  Speaker 1: that you've really got to make sure that you do
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  Speaker 1: look after yourselves and look after each other. But you know,
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  Speaker 1: then when you talk more so about the police force,
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  Speaker 1: what you face each and every day can be incredibly tough.
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  Speaker 1: I know there'll be some police officers listening this morning,
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  Speaker 1: and you know they might be getting to that point
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  Speaker 1: of struggling if they are listening this morning. I mean, really,
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  Speaker 1: what is that message for them?
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  Speaker 4: Speak up? That's the short thing.
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  Speaker 5: Like I think, you know, Surge will tell you, you know,
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  Speaker 5: you just need to ask for help or be open
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  Speaker 5: to it and have a look at yourself and see
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  Speaker 5: if you are really at that point open it. Because
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  Speaker 5: the support service is available both inside and outside of
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  Speaker 5: the police force. We just need to make sure that
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  Speaker 5: people are open to actually access them because you might
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  Speaker 5: be that early intervention point.
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  Speaker 4: Look for that in other people, you know, and.
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  Speaker 2: There are ways back, you know, hopefully not from as
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  Speaker 2: far as I went.
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  Speaker 3: But we're not going to throw people out. We want
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  Speaker 3: to help people.
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  Speaker 5: And I think that's a really strong message from Surge
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  Speaker 5: in particular. He works in recruitment, so for everything that
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  Speaker 5: he's been through to still be as positive as he
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  Speaker 5: is and the message and he still openly brings people
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  Speaker 5: into this industry because, like I say, we love it.
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  Speaker 5: It's a rewarding job. And I think he said it
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  Speaker 5: on your show before you know. Don't tell his wife,
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  Speaker 5: but he'd do it for free. Now, this is someone
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  Speaker 5: that's spent a long time out of the role because
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  Speaker 5: of the stresses and things that did cause. But we
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  Speaker 5: don't throw away. We want people. We invest heavily in
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  Speaker 5: our police officers, Surge the great police officer. We want
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  Speaker 5: them to come back. But your only way wing to
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  Speaker 5: do it is to work together and be open minded
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  Speaker 5: to it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I know that there is some discussion
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  Speaker 1: behind the scenes at the moment on some of those
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  Speaker 1: different measures which are going to be implemented by the
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  Speaker 1: Northern Territory Police in this space, and we'll talk about those,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure in coming days and weeks. But look, this morning,
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  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you both joining me in the studio.
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  Speaker 1: I know that it's not easy to talk about, particularly
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: you know, those really low points in your life. I
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: think it's really brave, Surge, but you don't need me
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  Speaker 1: to tell you that, mate, I really appreciate you both
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  Speaker 1: coming in this morning. Surge BYM and Neil Hayes. Thank
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: you for having a chat with me.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Thank you