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Golden Boy from Tennessee · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

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hello everyone and welcome to Q&A I'm Jay Nordlinger and my
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guest today is Lamar
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Alexander the Tennessee politician he's written an
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autobiography the education of a
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senator from JFK to Trump Lamar Alexander is one of these
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golden children Eagle
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Scout president of his high school class governor of Boys State
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editor of the
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SPEAKER_01: college newspaper
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SPEAKER_01: Phi Beta Kappa Governor University President Cabinet Member U.S.
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Senator Presidential Candidate The presidency by my calculation
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is the only thing
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SPEAKER_01: that ever eluded Mr.
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Alexander but some of us remember his bumper sticker Lamar with
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an exclamation
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SPEAKER_01: point
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and I believe the sticker had a touch of plaid his signature
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fabric well do I
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remember right about that bumper sticker you do you do Jay that
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was actually Mike
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Murphy's idea Mike was my campaign consultant and the red the
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red and black came
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from my walk across the state when I was to be governor I've
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run before and lost
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and my wife said before I told her I wanted to run again she
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said well two things
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first I want to know what you want to accomplish why why this
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would be good for us
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in the state and second could we have a different kind of
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campaign mode and so we
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ended up deciding that I'd be a lot more natural if I walked
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met people played
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SPEAKER_00: music and so I did that I
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I got four guys out of the University of Tennessee marching
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band we got a flatbed
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truck and we went for a thousand miles across the state and I
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spent the we'd get up
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on the truck and play play music play trombone I'd play
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trombone washboard with a
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spoon draw a crowd make a speech go on and and then then I
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spent the night with 73
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different families most of whom I hadn't known before and it
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really sunk me into
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SPEAKER_00: the roots of the state that I
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was a seventh generation resident of but really didn't know as
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well as I thought I
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did made me a much better candidate much better governor that's
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where the red and
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black plaid shirt came from that was your trademark shirt yeah
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it was it was sort
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of a symbol of standing in touch with the people and some
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people said well it's
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SPEAKER_00: just a gimmick and I said yeah well maybe it is a little bit but but
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It's not as much of a gimmick as these photo ops and 30-second
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sound bites and all
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SPEAKER_00: this stuff politicians normally do.
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I actually spent the night with people,
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tried to shake a thousand hands a day.
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SPEAKER_00: I went to their church meetings,
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SPEAKER_00: their softball games,
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SPEAKER_00: met with their friends after supper,
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SPEAKER_00: and it really was a wonderful experience for me.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, you said you played the trombone.
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SPEAKER_01: I figured you for a pianist.
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SPEAKER_01: like Harry Truman and Richard Nixon.
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SPEAKER_01: Aren't you a pianist?
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SPEAKER_00: I am.
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SPEAKER_00: I took,
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SPEAKER_00: when I,
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SPEAKER_00: during one of my campaigns,
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SPEAKER_00: a reporter said,
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SPEAKER_00: Mr.
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Alexander grew up in a lower middle class family in the
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mountains of Tennessee
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SPEAKER_00: where I live today.
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SPEAKER_00: And my mother,
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I talked to her that weekend and she was reading Thessalonians
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to gather strength
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SPEAKER_00: for how to deal with this slur on the family.
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SPEAKER_00: She said, son, we never thought of ourselves that way.
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SPEAKER_00: You had a piano lesson.
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from the day you were three and a library card from the day you
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were four you had
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everything you needed that was important and I played my first
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recital when I was
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five and found out I could play by ear and so playing the piano
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has been a big part
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of my life and I enjoy it but I also learned to play the
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trombone along the way and
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SPEAKER_00: there was no way to put a piano on a flatbed truck.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
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Well,
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I'm going to put something to you and please dispute it if you
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want.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think you'd get anywhere in Republican politics today.
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I think all of your competence and credentials and abilities
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would work against you.
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SPEAKER_01: Am I cynical or realistic?
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SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll see.
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SPEAKER_00: I hope you're not realistic.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean I won six statewide Republican primaries over 40 years in a very
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conservative state so I know how to win an election and the
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elections are different
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today I think what I'd probably have to do today is to use
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social media to attract
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into primaries people who aren't now voting in primaries
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because today we have
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five to ten percent of the people of the registered voters
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actually picking the
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primary winners so in the Republican side you get people who
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appeal to the extreme
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make the most noise shout the most same on the Democratic side
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to the left and
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people who are center left or center right which I am in which
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most people are one
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SPEAKER_00: or the other
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SPEAKER_00: They're really left out.
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SPEAKER_00: Their vote doesn't count.
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SPEAKER_00: They don't have anyone to vote for in the general election.
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So I think I'd have to figure out a way to get more people into
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the primary to win the election.
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SPEAKER_00: And maybe I wouldn't, but I've always figured out how to do it before.
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Well,
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I'd like to ask you about the title of your new book,
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The Education of a Senator.
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SPEAKER_01: And you chose that word senator, not governor or something else.
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SPEAKER_01: I thought that was kind of interesting.
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I've talked to many a politician in my time several of them
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said you know governor
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is the best job it's an executive position you can do things
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other people I think
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are more natural legislators they enjoy it the give and take
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and the compromise and
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so on the sausage making I don't know if there's much of that
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going on today in the
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SPEAKER_01: U.S.
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SPEAKER_01: Senate but this choice of title the education of a senator
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SPEAKER_00: Well, you're exactly right.
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SPEAKER_00: The jobs are really different.
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SPEAKER_00: And there are not many switch hitters,
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people who can have the skills to be a good senator and the
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skills to be a good
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SPEAKER_00: governor.
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SPEAKER_01: I think of Pete Wilson.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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Pete Wilson and Henry Bellman was the governor of Oklahoma and
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he came to the
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Senate and said it was about as exciting as watching a stump
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rot and he went back
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SPEAKER_00: to be the governor of Oklahoma.
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and rich mcconnell who the republican leader said any senator
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who has been a
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governor who says he prefers being a senator will lie about
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other things so they're
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different it used to be that the pinnacle of politics was the
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senate today we have
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four or five senators running for governor one in our state
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marsha blackburn amy
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SPEAKER_00: klomachar is running michael bennett in colorado
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SPEAKER_00: Turboville in Alabama.
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SPEAKER_00: I think there's another one.
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The governor's job is the better job in my opinion,
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but there's plenty to recommend the Senate.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: I woke up every day in both jobs,
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SPEAKER_00: and this surprises people when I tell them this sometimes.
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I felt like I woke up every day thinking I could do something
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good for my state or
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SPEAKER_00: country,
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SPEAKER_00: and I went to bed most nights thinking that I had.
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SPEAKER_00: So there's opportunity to really
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SPEAKER_00: make a difference and change things.
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SPEAKER_00: If you want kids to read better, governor's the place to be.
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If you want to speed medical miracles into the patient's lives
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through the FDA,
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SPEAKER_00: senator's the place to be.
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SPEAKER_00: So you can do both, but
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But lots of governors who become senators are really despair of
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working in a body
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SPEAKER_00: that operates by unanimous consent,
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SPEAKER_00: 100 people.
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And some senators who try to be governor flop because they're
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good at ideology and
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SPEAKER_00: good at making speeches,
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SPEAKER_00: but they're not very good at being Moses,
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SPEAKER_00: leading the way and then coming up with a practical result in the end.
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SPEAKER_01: I...
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I learned something this morning I um I think they say on
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social media I was today
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years old when I learned that your first name is not Lamar you
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are formally Andrew
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Lamar Alexander Jr that's right and I wonder was your dad
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called Andrew and is that
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why you're called Lamar or I think that's right my dad was
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Andrew Andy they called
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SPEAKER_00: him and I did the same my grandson his name Houston Lamar Alexander
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and my son said should we call him Lamar and I said don't do
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that to him so we
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called him Houston he's perfectly prepared for Texas politics
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Sam Houston and
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SPEAKER_00: Mirabeau P.
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Lamar so but I'm sure I was called Lamar because my dad was
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Andy and and they were
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SPEAKER_00: a mother and dad wanted me to have my own individual personalities
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SPEAKER_01: And you are from Maryville, Tennessee.
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SPEAKER_01: I have to keep it straight from Marysville, Ohio.
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SPEAKER_01: Maryville, Tennessee, front porch to the Smokies.
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SPEAKER_01: What did your parents do?
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SPEAKER_00: Teachers.
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SPEAKER_00: Both were teachers.
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SPEAKER_00: My dad was an elementary school principal.
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When I was born,
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he took a job at the Alcoa plant because it paid twice as much.
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SPEAKER_00: My mother
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created a nursery school in kindergarten in a converted garage
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in our backyard
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SPEAKER_00: before preschool education.
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SPEAKER_00: And so she,
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SPEAKER_00: over 31 years,
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SPEAKER_00: she taught about a thousand children in the morning and in the afternoon.
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She'd have about 10 or 15 three-year-olds in the morning and
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four-year-olds and
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SPEAKER_00: 25-year-olds in the afternoon.
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SPEAKER_01: Marvelous.
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SPEAKER_01: And were your parents politically minded or did you get that on your own?
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SPEAKER_00: They were public
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SPEAKER_00: Spirited, I would say.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, we listened on the old Zenith radio to the political conventions.
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I heard conversation about we're not that kind of Republican or
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we are a Republican
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because I live in a Lincolnite mountain district which fought
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with the Union during
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SPEAKER_00: the Civil War.
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SPEAKER_00: My great-grandfather was asked his politics.
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SPEAKER_00: He said, I'm a
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I'm a Republican I fought with the Union and I vote like I shot
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so that's my
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heritage my dad my dad ran for the school board was elected for
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25 years he was a
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member of the Republican Executive Committee counted votes on
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election night when I
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was 10 he took me to the courthouse to meet Congressman Howard
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H Baker senior the
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SPEAKER_00: father of Senator Baker
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I remember being shocked because he didn't look anything like
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his campaign poster.
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He was kind of fat in war classes and must have taken the
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picture in his high school yearbook.
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But I was sure that I just met the most respected man I was
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ever likely to meet
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SPEAKER_00: other than my dad and the preacher.
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SPEAKER_00: So I was raised to respect public service.
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magnificent um for college the volunteers will forgive my
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saying this maybe you
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went to the best university in the state Vanderbilt they will
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not forgive you I'm
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kind of used to it um and you were the editor of the university
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paper did you ever
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think of being a grubby journalist like me or were you always
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destined for elective
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SPEAKER_01: office
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No,
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I did think of being a journalist in the summers I worked for
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newspapers.
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I remember working in the Knoxville News Sentinel during one
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summer during my college years.
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SPEAKER_00: And of course,
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I was the junior guy and I worked on Saturday night and I was
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sent out to see who
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SPEAKER_00: was killed in the latest wreck,
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SPEAKER_00: that kind of thing.
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But the reporters encouraged me to go on to law school,
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which is where I was headed.
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So I enjoyed writing and still do and got started early but I
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suppose that would
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have been the other career I might have chosen They're related
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I think in some ways
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When you became later in your life president of the University
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of Tennessee Was it
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SPEAKER_01: a problem that you had gone to Vanderbilt?
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SPEAKER_01: Did some people consider that snooty and think maybe he's not one of us?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, that was a problem.
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SPEAKER_00: I bet.
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Some of them even thought I was going to put in the Vanderbilt
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offense in football.
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SPEAKER_00: That would have been worse.
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Except now the Vanderbilt has such a good offense,
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they beat the University of Tennessee.
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SPEAKER_00: But I didn't have a PhD.
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SPEAKER_00: I had gone to Vanderbilt.
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SPEAKER_00: Some people thought I was just there to be on a political way station.
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I remember being visited by the Faculty Senate early in my term
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who said...
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SPEAKER_00: We're concerned about you.
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SPEAKER_00: We think you may think result is more important than process.
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SPEAKER_00: I said, well, I do.
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SPEAKER_00: And they said, well, we don't.
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SPEAKER_00: So so it was an adjustment for me to be a university president.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, for law school, you went to NYU, New York University.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm speaking to you from New York.
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SPEAKER_01: Did you live in Greenwich Village?
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I did and if you can imagine you can't imagine this my first
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visit to Manhattan to
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New York City was when I enrolled in New York University Law
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School and went to my
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dorm room on Washington Square West in Greenwich Village and I
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looked out the
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window that night and saw all these strange goings on on
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Washington Square and
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SPEAKER_00: thought
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SPEAKER_00: How the hell did I get myself into this?
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SPEAKER_00: But I deliberately did it.
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SPEAKER_00: I was already infected with the political virus.
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SPEAKER_00: I was a seventh generation Tennessean.
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SPEAKER_00: I thought, do I really want to live in Tennessee?
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SPEAKER_00: Do I really want to be sucked into politics?
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SPEAKER_00: So I got a scholarship to NYU, which paid the way.
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It was for scholars who had an aptitude for public service,
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but I did it deliberately to try to
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separate myself from what I was already doing to see if that's
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what I really wanted to do.
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SPEAKER_01: And you turned back to Tennessee.
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SPEAKER_00: I did.
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I worked in one summer in the Department of Justice for
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Attorney General Robert F.
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Kennedy.
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SPEAKER_00: That was the summer of 1963.
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I remember walking out at lunch the end of August and there was
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this two hundred
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SPEAKER_00: and quarter of a million people on
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on the mall and I heard this booming voice over the loudspeaker
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and it was Martin
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Luther King I have a dream speech and the next summer I worked
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in Los Angeles and I
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remember sitting down in the library at NYU reading obituaries
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of Wall Street
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lawyers and said they spent their whole life and they had
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become experts at
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railroad rolling stock and I thought maybe I'll go home and try
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something else
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did you enjoy your time in New York did it did it broaden you
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would you say oh sure
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it challenged me I mean it's it's a very liberal campus and I
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wasn't I was more
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conventional so my views were often challenged and I had to
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learn to defend them
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and I learned that I was wrong about some things so so it was
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very broadening and
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SPEAKER_00: my only regret about going there is that I worked so hard
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SPEAKER_00: Onward and Upward and Upward
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SPEAKER_01: was an aide to Eisenhower and others,
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SPEAKER_01: sort of a famous Republican operative known as a steady hand,
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SPEAKER_01: an old Washington hand,
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SPEAKER_01: a man of integrity.
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SPEAKER_01: And to me,
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SPEAKER_01: he's known mainly for the expression,
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SPEAKER_01: trust is the coin of the realm in Washington,
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SPEAKER_01: D.C.
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SPEAKER_01: What can you tell me of Harlow?
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SPEAKER_00: He was, when I met him in 1969,
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probably the most respected staff person in Washington by
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Republicans and Democrats
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he was a lobbyist had been a lobbyist but he was so well
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respected he gave lobbying
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a good name he had worked in the he was a little guy about five
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seven five five
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SPEAKER_00: maybe from Oklahoma
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he he worked in the House Armed Services Committee to get on
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his thesis and then
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went back to Oklahoma then he they liked him so much they
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called him back then
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President Eisenhower called him back he later told me
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Washington is a very sticky
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place if you don't go home now you probably never will this was
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when I'd been
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SPEAKER_00: working for him in the White House for a year and a half
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but what I mostly remember about him is his wisdom and ethical
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attitude I mean I
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sat 50 feet from the Oval Office 29 years old at a desk crammed
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up next to his
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listen to his telephone conversations and other White House
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aides come in with
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SPEAKER_00: difficult issues.
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And the question he asked more often than not was what would be
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the right thing to do?
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SPEAKER_00: And for many of them that would clear up what they ought to do.
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SPEAKER_00: So I got my PhD in politics and government from a remarkable person.
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SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
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SPEAKER_01: And now on to Howard Baker, Jr. Not the man you first met, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Senior.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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maybe this is an easy question would howard baker have been a
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good president oh
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sure he would have been a terrific president i think that too
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my my i've worked
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with 10 presidents and i knew a couple of others uh lbj and and
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president kennedy
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but i worked with 10 and my my opinion is that the single most
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important attributes
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SPEAKER_00: of a president
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should be character and temperament and it would help if
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they're very broad gauged
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if they've had a broad gauge life or assembled as Lincoln did
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or as Reagan did
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broad gauge people around them then I hope they would lean
19:34
right because I'm a
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conservative but I'd rather have one with superior character
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and temperament
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SPEAKER_00: someone I could introduce my grandson to and
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say I hope you grew up to be like him and Howard Baker would
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have been that kind of person.
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SPEAKER_01: I know just what you mean and and I agree with you for what it's worth.
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SPEAKER_01: It occurred to me this morning I was thinking about our upcoming talk.
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SPEAKER_01: I know you so well for US politics and domestic policy.
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SPEAKER_01: Do you have an interest in foreign policy and world affairs?
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SPEAKER_01: Is that something that has been with you throughout your life?
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SPEAKER_00: Not throughout my life,
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SPEAKER_00: but my first White House dinner as governor in 1979,
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SPEAKER_00: President Carter said,
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SPEAKER_00: Governors go to Japan.
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persuade them to make in the United States what they sell in
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the United States and
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I thought I've walked all the way across Tennessee shook a
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thousand hands a day and
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not one person has said go to Japan so I did and I met with the
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Nissan people and
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they were looking for a place for manufacturing plant at that
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time the economy was
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SPEAKER_00: bad Tennessee was the third poorest state
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I'd spent the night with the Knight family Lillian Billy Knight
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south of Nashville
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she was a school teacher he was school secretary he was a
20:54
postmaster she said my my
20:56
twin boys are smart but they'll never get a job around here and
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I'll never see my
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SPEAKER_00: grandchildren
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
21:03
SPEAKER_00: the result of my trip and Nissan's decision was to put the largest auto
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SPEAKER_00: manufacturing plant in North America,
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SPEAKER_00: about five miles from the Knight family home.
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SPEAKER_00: And 25 years later,
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SPEAKER_00: her son,
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SPEAKER_00: one son,
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SPEAKER_00: was the manager of that plant,
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SPEAKER_00: another worked there,
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SPEAKER_00: and so did the grandson that she thought she would never see.
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SPEAKER_00: And today, Tennessee has a thousand auto suppliers instead of one.
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which it did then and and so I went to Japan a lot in answer to
21:37
your question and
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and and and became interested in that country went to some
21:45
other countries but
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otherwise most of my travel has been while I've been a senator
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or a fam on family
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SPEAKER_00: travel sure sure
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Well,
21:56
I want to remind our listeners and viewers that Lamar Alexander
22:01
was Secretary of
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Education under Bush 41.
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SPEAKER_01: And here's a question I myself have gone back and forth on.
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SPEAKER_01: Should the Department of Ed exist?
22:15
SPEAKER_00: We don't need a Department of Education.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: We need an education advocate.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: As president, we could have an office of education, but
22:25
SPEAKER_00: The Department of Education,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: which was created in 1979,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: mainly does two things which can be done by other parts of government.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: One thing is it gives out federal grants and loans to college students.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: That can be done by the Treasury Department.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: That's a more ministerial job.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: And the other thing it does is give out grants to K through 12.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And I would rather see that money
22:52
given to states and then distributed to schools with lower
22:58
income children and let
22:59
SPEAKER_00: the money follow those children to the school.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Now, the state wants it to be a public school.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: That's okay with me.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: I prefer including independent private schools,
23:11
but it would be a better distribution of the money if the
23:16
federal dollars followed
23:18
SPEAKER_00: the students at least
23:20
SPEAKER_00: to the public school of their choice,
23:22
because more of the money would end up in the schools with low
23:26
income children.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And those schools are usually underfunded.
23:32
I want to give you a couple of general views and have you
23:36
critique them,
23:37
if you would.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: I guess I believe in next to no federal role in education.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure of this.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: I believe in local control of education for better or worse.
23:49
But I was kind of with George W.
23:51
Bush,
23:52
who said as long as there's going to be
23:55
federal involvement and federal dollars we ought to attach
23:58
strings and no one I
24:01
knew liked No Child Left Behind I think I was its only defender
24:05
they hated it on
24:06
the left they hated it on the right but I thought that Bush 43
24:10
made sense when he
24:11
said if they're going to be federal dollars anyway let's at
24:16
least attach strings
24:18
and do some kind of testing so we know how the school kids are
24:21
doing so I feel a
24:23
SPEAKER_01: little bit torn
24:25
SPEAKER_01: and I wonder whether you can set me straight.
24:29
Well,
24:31
I don't think I need to set you straight because it sounds like
24:33
you and I agree.
24:35
I went to see President Reagan when I was governor in 1980-81
24:39
and made this
24:41
SPEAKER_00: proposal for what I call a grand swap.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: I said,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: President,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: you take all of Medicaid,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: not Medicare,
24:49
SPEAKER_00: you take all of Medicaid,
24:51
SPEAKER_00: which states pay 30-40% of,
24:53
SPEAKER_00: and we states will take all of K through 12 education.
24:58
We ought to have it anyway that schools belong under the
25:01
control the parents,
25:02
SPEAKER_00: the classroom teachers and communities.
25:05
Reagan liked that and proposed it in his next State of the
25:07
Union address,
25:08
but it didn't happen.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Now fast forward to Bush's No Child Left Behind.
25:12
I probably would have voted against that because although
25:16
Governor Bush was a very
25:18
SPEAKER_00: good education governor of Texas,
25:21
I thought he tried to be too much of a governor of the United
25:23
States when it came to education.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: But in 2015,
25:27
SPEAKER_00: when we fixed No Child Left Behind because Bush,
25:31
SPEAKER_00: then Clinton,
25:32
then Obama had transferred even more federal control to
25:36
Washington and made it sort
25:37
SPEAKER_00: of a national school board.
25:40
We kept the tests that were in No Child Left Behind or the
25:44
requirement for state
25:45
SPEAKER_00: tests so that we could know how children were doing.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: That should help with accountability.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Most governors were for that.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: They came up with the idea of accountability and tests.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: So my ideal situation would be federal advocacy,
26:03
SPEAKER_00: no Department of Education,
26:06
SPEAKER_00: distribute the grants and loans to college students,
26:10
SPEAKER_00: let the money follow the kids to K through 12.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to have a federal requirement,
26:16
for tests so you can know whether anyone's learning or not I
26:20
can accept that got it
26:23
got it neatly stated well when it comes to running for
26:27
president I once in my life
26:30
SPEAKER_01: had the chance to talk to Barry Goldwater
26:33
and he said people always say people are always saying to him
26:38
I'm so sorry about
26:40
1964 and you know this would call the Goldwater debacle that
26:44
was a famous phrase he
26:46
lost all those states to LBJ he said I don't regret it at all I
26:50
loved running for
26:51
president I met people all over the country it was a great
26:56
experience in my life
27:01
you didn't become the nominee in either 96 or 2000 but you did
27:05
run and I wonder
27:07
whether you enjoyed those experiences or whether they were so
27:14
disappointing maybe
27:15
you wish you hadn't done it no no I never felt the latter and I
27:21
went after it for
27:21
six years so that's a long time to do that but I can vividly
27:26
remember standing in a
27:29
SPEAKER_00: yard or a living room in Iowa in 1993,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: 4,
27:36
5 with maybe 40 or 50 people and having a discussion about our
27:40
country and what we
27:41
SPEAKER_00: hoped for it.
27:42
And I was thinking if people who were cynical about America
27:45
could see this meeting,
27:47
SPEAKER_00: see this discussion,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: they'd feel a lot better about our country.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: So I felt that way many, many times during the presidential campaign.
27:58
Goldwater also said he and McGovern apparently in the Senate
28:01
cloakroom afterwards
28:02
said to each other it's a good thing we lost so badly or we
28:06
would never have gotten
28:07
over it what an interesting reflection that had never occurred
28:14
to me you've known
28:16
so many people in your life and let's restrict this to public
28:19
life now which is
28:20
SPEAKER_01: broad enough
28:21
SPEAKER_01: I wonder who are some of the more impressive people?
28:24
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about Harlow and Baker,
28:27
SPEAKER_01: but other people in public life who've left an impression on you,
28:32
SPEAKER_01: a good impression.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Well,
28:34
SPEAKER_00: John Minor Wisdom,
28:35
SPEAKER_00: who was a federal judge in the Fifth Circuit for whom I was a law clerk.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I wasn't a law clerk.
28:41
He hired me as a messenger because he didn't have money to pay
28:47
a second law clerk.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: He already had one from Harvard.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: He said he'd treat me like a clerk so I went to New Orleans,
28:52
worked for him My music came in handy because I got a job at
28:56
your father's mustache
28:57
on Bourbon Street to make some extra money But Judge Wisdom and
29:02
three other judges
29:03
presided over the desegregation of the southern schools in the
29:09
1950s and 60s The
29:11
SPEAKER_00: district judges had all been selected and approved by segregationist
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Democratic Senators in the South.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: The Republican appellate judges,
29:22
SPEAKER_00: plus Judge Reeves,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: a Truman appointee,
29:27
SPEAKER_00: were selected by Eisenhower,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: and he didn't have to
29:31
get the approval of Senator Eastland and Stannis and the other
29:35
Southern Democratic judges.
29:38
So Judge Wisdom was the most eloquent spokesman for
29:43
implementing Brown versus Board
29:45
SPEAKER_00: of Education,
29:45
and he wrote the opinion that ordered Ole Miss to admit James
29:49
Meredith as their
29:51
SPEAKER_00: first Black student.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you something a little bit
29:58
not a little bit something poignant and painful I'm from the
30:02
state of Michigan and
30:04
that's where I was born and raised you can go way up in
30:07
northern Michigan upper
30:09
peninsula of Michigan where Scandinavians live Finns and so on
30:15
you see confederate
30:16
flags I imagine some of the people flying them or displaying
30:20
them are descendants
30:21
of Union soldiers you see confederate flags all over this
30:25
country it's weird
30:29
SPEAKER_01: It's sobering.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any thoughts on this?
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, it is.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: I see them some here where I live, not too many, but some.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's especially odd here because,
30:44
SPEAKER_00: as I mentioned earlier,
30:45
SPEAKER_00: my great grandfather fought with the union and he's a Republican,
30:49
SPEAKER_00: therefore.
30:50
And the district where I live and grew up has never sent a
30:55
Democrat to Congress because
30:58
When Tennessee seceded from the Union,
31:01
the mountain areas voted against that.
31:06
And a lot of men went north to join the Union Army and came
31:10
back to fight during the Civil War.
31:14
So I grew up in an area filled with Lincolnites who call
31:19
Confederates rebels.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: That's what they call Democrats, some of the older ones.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: Yet I still see some Confederate
31:27
SPEAKER_00: flags.
31:28
I'm not sure what it means,
31:29
but I'm sure it's unsettling to African-Americans especially.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Well,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: one of my favorite answers ever in an interview,
31:42
SPEAKER_01: not my interview,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I think it was done by Larry King.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: But he was talking on television to Liza Minnelli.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And he said, who's the best singer?
31:54
SPEAKER_01: And she said, you mean besides Ella?
31:58
and when I say who's the best president or who's your favorite
32:02
president I say
32:04
besides Lincoln I would take that as red but you may have a
32:10
different view you may
32:11
prefer Washington I don't know but who are your presidents that
32:17
the presidents you
32:18
admire and esteem in our history well of the ones I worked with
32:24
and I worked with
32:25
SPEAKER_00: 10
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I thought Reagan fit the job the best.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: I didn't think so at first.
32:33
I thought he was too conservative,
32:34
too Western,
32:35
too old,
32:36
but he had an executive demeanor.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: He was able to delegate.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: And like Lincoln,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: when he was elected,
32:44
he drew to him a team of rivals who were broad gauged and
32:51
helped him have a
32:51
SPEAKER_00: successful presidency.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: Number one was his vice president who'd run against him, Bush.
32:58
number two was his rival's campaign manager Jim Baker and then
33:02
when he got in
33:03
trouble over a Rangate he brought in another rival Howard Baker
33:07
and so I think
33:09
Reagan fit the job the best I had great respect for others
33:15
others as well of the
33:18
SPEAKER_00: presidents I didn't know I liked Teddy Roosevelt's
33:24
I would like to have met him yeah me too he he he must have
33:29
been completely out of
33:30
control and and an advocate for everything he believed so
33:36
versatile such a good
33:37
SPEAKER_01: writer by the way marvelous writer
33:39
SPEAKER_00: A good writer, a good advocate.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: He had a tragedy in his life from which he recovered an adventurer.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Did he have a child who died?
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Is that what you meant by the tragedy?
33:56
SPEAKER_00: His mother and his wife died on the same day.
34:01
oh my god and that that that's when he went to Eldora North
34:05
Dakota and became sort
34:08
of a cowboy yeah the the person in public life that I admire
34:14
the most who never was
34:15
president but who might have been at the time of Lincoln was
34:18
Sam Houston who was
34:20
the governor of Tennessee before he was the governor of Texas
34:23
and then senator from
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Texas is your grandson named after Sam Houston or is it a coincidence
34:29
No he is and my son is named after him too Sam Houston actually
34:34
grew up in
34:34
Maryville this area where I'm from his mother moved down here
34:37
when she was 50 with
34:38
seven kids in the early 1800s and he grew up here ran away and
34:42
lived with the
34:42
Indians joined Andrew Jackson's army became congressman
34:47
governor he would have been
34:50
SPEAKER_00: James K Polk except he resigned the governorship because of
34:56
a failed marriage and he moved to Arkansas and lived with the
35:01
Cherokees that he
35:02
once lived with here in Tennessee and got drunk and then he
35:06
went to Texas and
35:07
SPEAKER_00: sobered up.
35:08
And then he resigned the governorship of Texas when Texas
35:12
seceded from the Union.
35:13
So he was a Union Democrat and would have been a natural
35:18
presidential candidate in
35:20
SPEAKER_00: the 1860 election or even 64.
35:26
Well here at the end Lamar Alexander I'm going to ask you what
35:30
I might call it sort
35:31
of a mushy question but it's equally a thorny question has to
35:39
do with our democracy
35:40
and its stability and whether it can endure and so we always
35:47
say oh sure of course
35:49
we have the sound constitutional foundation and so on we're
35:51
built to last to
35:53
but Franklin said a republic if you can keep it and Reagan used
36:00
to say I confess
36:01
I've confessed this on this program before I used to roll my
36:05
eyes a little at least
36:06
inwardly when Reagan said freedom is only one generation away
36:10
from extinction I
36:12
thought in some theoretical sense it might be true but I
36:14
thought oh come on come on
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Reagan please I don't scoff at it anymore I don't
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, say whatever you like to bring us to a close.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: I believe the Republic will survive.
36:29
Senator Baker used to teach that when he would run into a
36:32
problem with an obstinate
36:33
SPEAKER_00: senator or a war or a difficult vote.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Of course, he didn't see
36:37
SPEAKER_00: You didn't see this,
36:40
SPEAKER_00: this digital democracy that we've suddenly found ourselves in,
36:43
SPEAKER_00: which tears us apart,
36:45
SPEAKER_00: provokes extreme,
36:47
coarse conversations that provide little incentive for the kind
36:55
of compromise that
36:56
SPEAKER_00: built the country and created most of the things that we enjoy today.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: But I think the country is too big and strong
37:09
SPEAKER_00: not to survive as a republic.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: But I think it will take some work.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
37:13
SPEAKER_00: when you think about it,
37:15
SPEAKER_00: we produce 26% of all the money in the world for 4% of the people.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: We've got the strongest military, most of the best universities.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: It's the place to start a business.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: We create the vaccines.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: People are dying to come here, literally.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: and not many want to leave.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: So we have everything in our hands.
37:42
I think we just have to remember what made us strong over the
37:45
last 250 years.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And the reason I wrote this book was to persuade people that
37:52
The surest way to help the most people and to be a part of
37:56
keeping our republic
37:57
from falling apart is to figure out how to get yourself elected
38:00
to public office or
38:02
go to work with somebody else who has because that's where so
38:07
many of the decisions
38:09
SPEAKER_00: are made that will affect the durability of our republic.
38:16
Well,
38:16
ladies and gentlemen,
38:17
the book is The Education of a Senator from JFK to Trump
38:22
by Lamar Alexander one of my favorite people all time and I
38:26
wish I could go out and
38:27
vote for him today today is a Tuesday a traditional election
38:31
day thank you sir and
38:33
all the best to you thank you Jay thanks for your time so long
38:37
everyone till next
38:39
SPEAKER_01: time