Latest / The Director's Chair Network / Trial By Fire
Transcript
- 0:04 [Music] [Applause] 0:14 [Music] 0:25 good day good evening good afternoon good morning whatever it is at this time you're listening to this podcast this is 0:30 the zwix flicks the Ed zwick podcast this is officially the final is episode 0:38 of Z flick the reason why I say that because this is the final theatrical movie that edwick has 0:46 directed he's done other projects that he of course he's produced executive produced and even written with me today 0:52 for this kind of series finale of sorts is returning three-time guest co-host 1:00 Doug Doug how you doing I'm doing wonderful Ryan thanks for asking me on for this did I pick this film I don't 1:06 remember I know you told me right off the bat to pick a bunch of films I don't remember if I picked this one 1:12 specifically I don't know how it fell on your lap I I think it was just one of those things where between you and a few 1:18 other my close podcasting friends and friends I should say but people who podcast and who are friends I I gave you 1:24 Kate and Craig kind of three choices each you were my first picks and so you guys all picked what you picked but 1:31 there was a few just because people hadn't seen them or and or heard of them where people were like I don't know that 1:36 film and so I think this was that last film where I was like he D I just need somebody for this film yeah I'll be the 1:42 serious finale and trial by fire I'll admit if you were to ask me before I 1:48 started this journey of zwick's films and to do a podcast about his films when 1:54 the idea came to me like oh I'm going to do Ed Wick films if you were to ask me Ryan before you go on Wikipedia to see 1:59 how many episodes you're going to be doing what was his last film I wouldn't have been able to tell you this 2:05 answer interesting even though you you were familiar with his body of work yeah 2:11 this was news to me and it was news to me that this is already six years I guess seven years old now boys 2025 yeah 2:16 this film came out in 2018 I'm looking forward to talking about this film because I guess I thought because it was 2:23 such a maybe not a very big box office film very quiet film nobody was talking about it that I was aware of at the time 2:30 and I'm just trying to think where my life was in 2018 it was a fine life I there's no trauma or anything going crazy in my life at the time it was just 2:36 a normal I would say normal life because I always measure my life with the when did I have the twins when did I get 2:42 remarried always life is like crazy you just don't think of going to the movies but no my life was all in order but this 2:49 one totally escaped me did you know about this film before I asked you to come on no and I don't think that's 2:54 anybody's surprised I am admittedly not a huge movie theater goer sure and I've 3:00 also been on other podcasts that that cover movies that I watch for the first time in preparation for it watching this 3:06 in preparation for this podcast was not new to me but I'm surprised I never 3:12 heard of it as we always do Doug we're g to course talk about the actors that were in it are these first-time collaborators with edwick are the 3:19 returning people things like that what's this film about all that good stuff I'm going to say right now this is a all the 3:26 films we've talked about have been spoilerish meaning we don't avoid spoilers but we don't necessarily go out 3:31 of our way just to spoil a film if the natural conversation is such that we will talk about a scene or a sequence 3:37 yeah we're going to talk about the film but I think you can watch any one of the films we've discussed and still enjoyed 3:43 even if plot points and stuff but this one's unique because of his 13 films I think this is the first true 3:50 crime film that he's ever covered I'm just quickly my brain I I'm making that claim am I wrong here I know he's done 3:56 true films I.E of course Glory was a true events he's tackled like true type 4:03 scenarios whether it's race related things like that but this is a legit a 4:08 True Crime Story did you even hear about this story before the film no I started 4:15 going down a rabbit hole a little bit after watching the film on the case which was absolutely incredible and 4:23 fascinating and I started to read the Wikipedia article on the case before I finished the movie so I knew how it 4:28 ended you and I have the exact same experience let me be clear about this if you like 4:33 True Crime and you like true crime stories and true crime movies I'm gonna 4:38 guess spoil a little bit of my review right now because I don't want to spoil this movie for somebody I guess what I'm trying to say is this is a very good 4:46 film yeah and done very well about a very fascinating story about the death 4:51 penalty about somebody who's on death row like you Doug when I was watching this film I was so stressed out I 4:58 couldn't help myself that I went to the True Crime Story right about it because I couldn't handle knowing what happened 5:04 to this poor individual so I'm going to say this now stop the podcast now I appreciate the 5:10 download watch the film if you don't mind the spoilers because now we're GNA get into the 5:16 outcomes but because that we have to because the outcome to the case and to his trial is very important because it 5:22 it yeah okay soor I'm all over the place because I'm really glad to talk to this uh movie with you Doug because you're a 5:29 cop you're police officer I am yes you're like a sergeant right you're still Sergeant I I am a sergeant yeah 5:34 right so what I'm trying to get at is you are on the side of law meaning you have arrested people you have uh seen 5:42 people that you've arrested I'm sure actually I've never asked this you've arrested people correct yes that is 5:47 correct have you known about these people going to trial that you've arrested for whatever crime not unless I 5:53 was involved in the trial as a witness but usually if it's a case that I start 5:58 like I respond to the call and if they don't need me for let's say it doesn't go to trial the guy makes a 6:03 plea bargain I'll get a notice at work saying this individual was sentenced to four years in state prison or what have 6:10 you have you ever arrested somebody because you're not the judge you're not a jury that's 6:15 not your job your job is hey you're suspected of a crime we arrest people one for their safety for the public 6:21 safety and for further questioning and figuring out like what to do this guy because you could be arrested and not and then let go because okay we can't 6:27 hold you it's not enough go about your day and Bud goes to work the next day there's no record it's like you don't 6:33 get a criminal record because you're arrested I think a lot of people think that they think because you're arrested you're automatically a criminal 6:39 arresting again is just hey we we're semi forcing you to come with us so we can figure out what's going on sometimes 6:45 it's for their safety the public safety are both now this story is fascinating because 6:52 here's the scenario guys it starts off right away kids playing in the yard 6:57 house across the Street's on fire girl runs and tells the mother hey the house across the Street's on fire the main 7:04 character his name is Cameron Todd Williams so this is a real person Cameron runs out of his house yelling my 7:11 babies are inside he has a fouryear oldish five-year-old girl twin three three years old and and twin one year 7:18 olds yeah very young and long story short they died in the fire and thus he 7:24 was then arrested long story short for arson and murder of his children 7:30 okay this movie to me Doug was so powerful in this message and the outcome of his trial and 7:36 the evidence and what happened to him at the end that it definitely made me 7:41 reconsider the death penalty I have been pretty much my whole life I'm almost 50 7:47 I turned 50 this year so I've been a very staunch like Governor yeah like you come to you come 7:55 to our state commit murder you're going to trial and after watching film and seeing the human face so I guess I'm 8:01 spoiling it I don't know if the death penalty is ever worth it if one person dies because of it that's innocent if 8:08 one innocent person dies because of it yeah that's what you're saying the problem is this guy Todd Willingham 8:15 Cameron whatever Todd they call him throughout the movie yeah Todd he was known to the police he's a Rebel Rouser 8:21 a troublemaker very known with like domestic violence issues between him and his wife yes yeah he wasn't necessarily 8:28 A Saint that's the problem correct so the 8:34 police in this case is they have the guy and then they build the case around the guy yes and that's a major problem in 8:41 policing and especially when you get to the level where you're taking the guy's Freedom away and in this case taking his 8:48 life like this is the Pinnacle of law enforcement is the death penalty right 8:53 and not just the fact that the police did that because you can lock a guy up and charge him with stuff but usually 9:00 your lawyers got your back because they'll investigate the case and then they'll have experts that will testify 9:06 on in this case the fire the electrical wiring everything that could have possibly contributed to the fire they 9:12 would either rule out or use as like a mitigating circumstance but they ignored all of 9:18 that because of who he was he ends up on death row and then even worse is Governor Perry who when presented with 9:25 this didn't give a [ __ ] because of his political aspirations yeah like guy was [ __ ] from top to bottom bottom to top 9:32 like he didn't stand a chance it's disgusting they literally have real 9:38 evidence that he was not it's not even a question of in fact this is the problem with the movie what the movie is so good 9:44 at this is a good problem what Ed does and what the screenwriter does and Ed's direction does is because I went to this 9:51 case cold we weren't even sure of his innocence we were taking the journey with the neighbors with his family with 9:58 the police what they had and I was believing the quotequote fire experts at the beginning of the film because I 10:05 don't know fire as a viewer I'm taking the journey as a jury member in a sense of his crimes of his behavior and I'm 10:13 also painting him in the light of this guy I don't know maybe he just snapped maybe he just whatever but as the film 10:20 continues and evidence of course the end of the film is given by people who are actual real forensic scientists in the 10:27 firew world and they very clearly for example the fire pattern on the floor 10:34 for example looked like a pentagram so they tried to connect this is now we should say this was what the late 80s 10:39 early 90s 91 yeah so even the satanic Panic of the 80s was still carrying over to the 10:45 90s and they were trying to equate Doug that 10:51 he had put some sort of burning solvent on the kid's room the pentagram because 10:59 listen to Iron Maiden and Leed zeeph yeah now we laugh it's I just can't 11:05 believe full grown adults in a professional field of trying to equate they're saying there was a satanic 11:11 sacrifice ritual this is ridiculous remember think about it back in the early 90s this was the big boom with the 11:19 music affecting people music yeah Azie was convincing people to 11:24 kill themselves and the lyrics and Iron Maiden were satanic and this was the time when they I forgot what they called 11:31 it the music mothers got the parental advisory yeah the group got the parental advisory stamped on all the CDs that had 11:38 the nasty words in them but who was the the wife she was a famous who was T not 11:44 the wife that spearheaded it yeah but she was a wife of it was a politician's wife yeah Tipper Gore that's right thank 11:52 yeah yeah so this is r with that talking crap about music you know music 11:59 influences people that do terrible [ __ ] they just built this case around and me as a cop like I deal with people like 12:05 this where they're repeat offenders where they're always fighting with their wife constantly arresting them getting 12:12 restraining orders against one another spending hours on paperwork and then five days later they go to court and it's dropped and then it just goes all 12:18 over again the movie especially humanizes him and makes you feel bad for him so I don't know the real 12:27 Todd but he obviously didn't deserve the death penalty for this because he didn't 12:33 do the crime no even if he slapped his wife around she sounded like a real treat too like there yeah I must say she 12:40 deserves to be slapped around a little bit but if even if a fraction of her behavior was true which I I think it 12:46 probably was she was a real peach of a person in fact she lied to investigators 12:51 to save her own skin saying that yeah he admitted to me that he killed the kids 12:56 like whoa that's that's murder my eyes she sent him to the death penalty 13:02 right that was also at the behest of her brother who was a police officer and he was making her testify that it was what 13:10 an unbelievable story though and a lot of it a lot of it according to Wikipedia which isn't the the most reliable source 13:17 of information is pretty closely held to the actual case the movie well I want to 13:22 talk about that the movie itself was based on a New York Times article sorry 13:27 the New Yorker called Tri by fire written by David Gran written in July of 2018 so I read that article I don't know 13:34 if you read that actual article from The New Yorker no I didn't it's legit the film including the Laura D character 13:42 which one the Laura D character yes yeah because she seems like the only one that 13:48 didn't pop up in any other the I watched a couple of documentaries she's a real person she 13:53 was a real person was oh she wasn't mentioned in anything or the Wikipedia article yeah it's funny like when you go 13:59 to the cast of characters on the Wikipedia page for the film yeah Cameron Todd has a link she is a real person she 14:06 was in the a Frontline documentary I watched on YouTube and she was interviewed for that and she's part of this advocacy group for this forget what 14:14 it's called for proper evidence for the death penalty to eradicate it and what have you her name is Elizabeth Gilbert 14:19 and here another spoiler she truly was paralyzed in a car accident before the the uh the like on the way to the no 14:27 that was the what do you call that was dramatic purposes for the film yeah yeah but it was a few months before so he 14:32 knew because in the film he didn't say where is she so they played it weirdly because she he never freaked out that 14:39 she wasn't there when she promised to be there because in real life he did write a letter yeah that's like you must have 14:46 had something important going on right so a lot of um films will take creative 14:52 Liberty that's what word I'm looking for Creative Liberties of course it's a because the storytelling is different for a film it's a different type of 14:58 medium where you're seeing these events play there's got to be some dramatic and human interactions but edwick did 15:03 mention in an interview I don't have it for us to listen to but I did go on YouTube listen to some of his interviews for this film and he did say that they 15:10 had the letters in their hands like they actually had the letters on the film so that was part of their Source material 15:16 was the actual letters funny enough like Glory glor gonna say that yeah yeah yeah so he had those letters and Elizabeth 15:24 Gilbert letters to Todd and she looks a lot like dur really nailed the 15:30 mannerisms and characteristics of Elizabeth Gilbert so Laura dur plays I guess you could say 15:36 the she's like an advocate that's right it's like one of those things the classic would you like to be the pen 15:41 palel for an inmate because they're on death R they have no friends and she did and they became friends and she of 15:48 course her family's accusing her of writing to a murderer or what have you they're conflicted by this but she goes no like the viewer that's it we take 15:55 this journey with Elizabeth we start to see the human that TD is the same way she did through the 16:01 letters and then we see the evidence come in and there's a part of you at the end they're like they're going to 16:06 because when you're watching the film even though I knew the outcome like oh they got to know right that he's innocent this Doug if you saw that 16:13 evidence you would be like whoa whoa I don't want to I don't want blood of an innocent man even though I believed in the death penalty I would do not believe 16:19 in putting innocent men even if my is on the line I like to think I would like to 16:24 think even if my political career was on the line that I would say I would stay the execution of this person because of 16:29 the evidence and I would show the evidence to the they didn't ask for a full pardon they just asked for a state of EX 16:34 execution for 30 days so they can um reexamine the case yes that's all they 16:40 asked for because they had one more kick of the can they were allowed one more kick of the can right he had five appeals that were denied he was on lucky 16:47 number six and Governor Perry said nah how do you live with yourself I'm 16:54 telling you the these politicians are soulless even you know rck Perry I I 17:00 don't know him from Adam like I I never really knew any of his policies or anything all Texas Governors are 17:08 hardcore Republicans very right leaning very Pro second amendment that kind of 17:13 thing but Rick Perry was running for president at the time right and it didn't look sexy on his resume to let a 17:21 death row inmate off especially somebody of Todd's caliber who was a career 17:26 criminal and had his problems and was very well known to the police so it didn't look good for presidential 17:33 candidate Rick Perry so he called the guy a monster he said Todd's a monster and he's gonna pay for his crimes yeah 17:41 yikes all right this film is fantastic and I'm really sad for Ed and the crew 17:47 and the cast that it made no noise failed miserably at the box office like 17:52 financially but if you go on IMDb and look at the comments they all Echo what we're saying people love this film and 17:57 you go on YouTube look at the comments comments people like oh this film was amazing blah blah blah so it's just one of those films where there's just not a 18:04 wide audience but it deserves a wider audience and in fact in one of the interviews they had promoting this film 18:09 the interviewer was talking to Lauren dur and the actor who played Cameron Todd Jacko Connell and edwick on this 18:16 panel they knew this film would probably I would say fail the box office it only had a limited release and those limited 18:22 releases are determined if it's going to be a wide release and didn't make enough un limited to become a wide release that's part of the box office failure 18:28 but but the interviewer asked a very fair question Ed saying like this film 18:33 would have been amazing in the 90s because back in the 90s these are the kind of films that did remember like 18:39 even like films that were dramatized like the firm another junkers and one was of course the client those typ of 18:46 fil yeah the rain maker so lawyer films and trial films were very popular in the 90s and ironically if this film was made 18:54 closer at the time of its actual happening it would have done much this film what do you think though shot for 19:00 shot film for film this would have done much better in the 90s I agree but I also think that one 19:07 thing that those films had that this didn't was a major star actually not that's not even true because Matt Damon 19:14 when he did Rainmaker wasn't a huge star he wasn't then no he wasn't then yeah who was in was it the firm was well 19:20 Michael Douglas was established but um The Firm was Tom Cruz but anyways what was the one with with 19:26 um Michael Douglas in it I don't think Michael Douglas did a JN 19:31 GM no he did a lawyer like a big-time lawyer film oh he was like a G Gordon uh what's his 19:39 name he played Gordon gecko oh Wall Street that was the okay yeah yeah yeah oh that was the 80s all right all right 19:45 my bad no yeah it was Wall Street but the point is I got yeah strike that last remark 19:52 because it does so you don't need a household name to star in it fair enough 19:57 but I know just to change course real quick I know you don't normally get deep into like plot with these films like 20:03 it's more about the background and the actors and Ed Ed Wick oh keep going this this like this plot is it's way 20:11 too heavy to ignore and I stopped researching because I know not only do 20:16 you not get deep into the plot you certainly don't get very deep into the backstory either so I just felt like I was wasting my time by researching a 20:23 whole lot of it but I'm GL I'm glad you did any research people should know for the record these episodes are heavily 20:29 researched we spend hours and hours in preparation for every that's what makes him such a incredibly well developed episodes no 20:36 sorry if I broke the illusion yeah no this was a fascinating film even when I saw the title trial by fire I could tell 20:43 with the movie poster oh looks like this might be a lawyer type film but it's not a lawyer film I we should have make that 20:48 the trial the initial trial that sends me to death row happens in the first 20:53 quarter of the film the last three quarters of the film is his life on death row in the letters to the Laura 20:59 dur character and we as a viewer start to realize wait a minute 21:06 this guy had a bad life that's the other thing he actually had a bad upbringing the system failed him too as a human 21:13 it's a commentary on a lot of different issues really bad upbringing himself bad education system bad choices with the 21:20 mother of his kids but the one thing that even his wife played by Emily me 21:25 named Stacy even she said that he would never hurt the kids even despite their physical altercations they did at each 21:31 other they hurt each other let's be clear yeah the kid's mom she wasn't a saint like she antagonized him and not 21:37 to say yeah I'm not condoning any physical violence on anybody male or female but I'm just saying she and him 21:44 got into it even she said when the cops came she' just tell like yeah we're just fighting again so it was one of those weird relation you you might have even 21:50 seen that as a cop have you seen that kind of stuff where you can maybe see 21:55 like the parents going at it and not really involving the kids I do see that I do see that however when 22:02 you're doing that in front of the kids that you are abusing all right and I've actually seen that as recently as this 22:08 past work week and parents fighting in front of the kids like nine-year-old kid 10-year-old kid we go in the house and 22:14 he's crying you know what I mean but that was another aspect that it broke me is about the girls that died 22:21 because a there's a scene where the house is on fire and you hear the girl calling for her daddy and you're dad I'm 22:29 a dad we love our children and I don't think there is any anything that would keep me from getting back in that house 22:34 and trying to save my kids I agree with you then again we've never been in in a 22:40 a fire that hop before so it's how do you say that and I don't know if this was the documentary of the film there's 22:46 a documentary again called triby fire I forget what it's called exactly but if you just do on YouTube triby fire front 22:52 line it's an hourong documentary the Frontline did it's really well done it 22:57 just also shows you the movie got this spot on like they really stuck to the facts but one of the people interviewed 23:04 I think one of his friends Todd's friends she said something that really struck Accord to me so to respond to you 23:10 yes Doug I would like to think it really hit home because I'm like oh I hear what this person is saying because in the 23:17 film Todd the character the real person played by Jack oconnell he says or he 23:24 admits to I forget who he admits it to the Lura dur character he says guilty of being a coward yeah MH so I hear what 23:33 you're saying and he feels bad as a father too he tried to go in and he left 23:38 and the in the documentary the interviewing friends and family of Todd they said something that was very 23:44 telling they said you will say stuff like Doug just said about there's nothing you wouldn't do but then they said unless you know what it feels like 23:51 to be burnt alive you save yourself yeah and as if it's that human to survive 23:59 have you ever felt fire heat before like real fire heat on your yeah I've been on scene where houses are on fire and cars 24:05 and stuff and it's hot when you're standing 50 feet away it's hot yeah so 24:10 it is heartbreaking it's a very hard film to watch anyway especially when you're parent but even the death of children is very difficult you have kids 24:18 I have kids the idea Doug and it's even you know want to start crying even saying it out loud but 24:24 the idea of your children right there you hear them cooking yeah oh God I know 24:34 but you try to enter the room and you can't can you put your hand in a pot of 24:39 boiling water you say you could to pull your kid out let's just say I'm not trying to be I'm not even trying to be 24:44 graphic or I'm not but I'm trying to put into perspective when your body is feeling that kind of pain you recoil 24:51 like you recoil it's an automatic defense mechanism but your body recoils 24:56 at heat it just does and to put yourself into a furnace I I would say it's probably near impossible yeah yeah and I 25:04 don't know if if it was in the movie or was it in the documentary but when he was talking about like his kids he's I 25:12 think it was in it had to be in the movie he was like I I went in there knowing that my babies were already dead 25:17 it was only the the three-year-old that was calling for him because he knew thankfully B fires to and I've done 25:24 fire training in the military so I know a little bit but I'm not an expert any strch in the imagination but we do firefighting training and so we're in 25:31 simulators and that's what I mean even in the simulation firefighting I'm wearing full bunker gear and there it's 25:37 propane controlled fires yeah and I'm feeling the heat on my gloves that it actually hurts my hands still and my 25:45 sleeves when I'm fighting with the fire hose fighting this propane fire we do like simulation helicopter crashes for 25:50 crash on decks and so this fire is very hot and real no smoke no propane 25:56 fire and it hurts me through the bunker gear like I feel discomfort and pain I can only 26:03 imagine what it feels like without bunker gear on no I I can't I can't imagine like I 26:10 said I've been on scene not at the door but like I've been on scene on fire 26:16 scenes where it's hot from 100 feet away like you don't have to get close to feel 26:21 the heat it's that's so that's what I mean so when all said and done he's guilty of being a coward and that just 26:27 breaks your heart because yeah when you're comfortable and you don't feel the heat anymore then you think of what 26:32 you could have done I should have just gone in and grabbed but what's he going to grab like yeah yeah I don't know I 26:39 don't know believe me I'm a police officer so I hate the Monday morning quarterbacks like what I would have done 26:45 or what you should have done sure I'm going to refrain from that but it's devastating to think about like your 26:51 children and you being even in a situation where you have to make that choice or make that sacrifice or 26:57 whatever the case is yeah I don't like this movie for for it 27:02 really because I have young kids especially my baby who's a year and a half like it's same age as the twins 27:08 devastating it was devastating so the one one other plot the conversations 27:13 that he was having with his dead daughter like throughout the film and I don't know if it was like a coping thing 27:20 he didn't seem crazy so I don't think he was hallucinating I think he was just coping but there was maybe three scenes 27:26 where he had these conversations with his older daughter who the ghost of the daughter was her her real age she would 27:33 have been at the time he was talking to her of course that's right she died at three years old but when he's talking to her she was like 9 years old or so say 27:41 right but towards the end of the movie after he gets the lethal injection I'm watching and and I'm like like Jaw on 27:48 the floor even though I knew the outcome but I was watching it and I was like you know what would have really made a an 27:54 impact here if they had the daughter come in grab his hand or whatever and sure enough as he crosses over you see 28:00 the little hand grab his and I started welling up man it was like crazy aswick you bastard yeah you got me 28:07 Ed first Glory now this from beginning to end you got me yeah he's great at the 28:14 emotion he's great at making you feel and this is why I've really enjoyed doing ewick films because I think he's 28:21 in a masterclass of his own of making the human experience with all these 28:26 situations from war to this to the death penalty 28:33 and I admit I was swayed I get it I get why there's a group formed now from this 28:39 case in particular I should say there is a group that was formed and a better podcast would have I heard the name of 28:44 the group I apologize but there's an advocacy group that Elizabeth Gilbert still runs and she goes on tours and 28:50 gives talks and something against the death penalty or something like that and did you know it's more expensive to kill 28:56 them than to keep them alive oh was that I didn't know that I I thought in the documentary as well it to 29:02 house and feed somebody for the rest of their life I thought that was a lot more expensive than no they explained in the documentary was I the documentary of the 29:09 New Yorker article they explained that the money is that's what I naely thought too that it's just easier to chop off 29:15 their heads and move on with your day but right apparently there's a lot more involved financially with the killing of 29:20 a death row mate than just keeping them alive no kidding yeah imagine that yep 29:26 going back to what you were saying about Ed's Wick he's from the episodes that I've done with you now we're talking 29:32 about Glory blood diamond and now this right yeah you've had some funs I'm sorry you holy smokes you've had some 29:39 rough one he is great at extracting those really heart- ruring dramatic 29:46 elements and Shining a light on them really focusing on those dramatic elements instead of glazing through them 29:53 he sits on it and makes you feel something before moving on he is masterful at that at least in the three 29:59 that I've seen and also listening to your other episodes there they're definitely other movies where he's done 30:05 that speaking of other movies we were talking of course last episode we uh did with Craig we did Jack Reacher something 30:11 completely different than what we're experiencing now and I think it's funny we talked about Jack Reacher being the action film and Tom Cruz probably just 30:17 said hey Ed you wanna want to get another hit on your resume you've had a few misses last few films as far as box 30:22 office concerned not quality of film but just numbers and he probably didn't feel 30:28 any real emotional connections so again it's interesting watching this film we're back to that sort of independent 30:33 film making style simpler type film watching this Doug I I went in this with 30:39 low expectations because I knew this was his last film and I knew it didn't do well numbers wise so I went in with 30:44 probably a little bit by the Numbers type film or whatever it is and I was 30:50 like no Ed keep doing these do another one for Netflix or Apple TV or something 30:56 like and older now like he's not a spring chicken anymore I think he's 70 at least if not 70 something you just 31:03 get older your energy level gets lowered it just it's it's natural he finds these Diamonds in the Rough stories though 31:10 it's interesting the way he came across the glory story and the blood I keep going back to those because those are 31:16 ones I done with you but the stories that he finds either reading an article 31:21 and something will click and I'll say I can make a a movie out of this and he does it well 31:28 you know yeah I don't know I wish you would do more of these because I'm turning into an ed zck fan listening to 31:34 all these I already like I want to see a lot of the movies that you've covered that I haven't seen before like just the 31:40 your coverage of them made me want to follow up and check him out that's 31:45 fantastic I'm sure he'll be happy to hear that yes people contact his people 31:51 man I would love to interview him I don't know how to get a hold of him I follow him on X and I'm able to tag him 31:58 when I do these episode releases I tag him in the photo like he gets tagged it's not like he has five million 32:04 followers so I don't know if he's even aware's who's this guy what some idiot need a podcast after me what the you 32:09 can't DM him unless he follows you back that's right that's right yeah I think he might be retired and that's fine he's 32:16 72 that's there's no shame in that he's had a huge career 40 years in the industry it's okay you got to hang up 32:21 your gloves it's okay and he's 72 years old this is his last film I'm even looking at his producer credits 32:28 executive producer credits this is his last kind of Harrah regarding films he said a couple things in TV he did 32:34 something in 2020 it was a TV show called away it was a Netflix show he directed 32:41 an episode of that but that's about it apparently he was the executive producer of the show called Nashville from 2016 32:47 to 2018 but even then that was during this time so he might just be retired Doug yeah when you're directing what are 32:53 you giving up 10 weeks of your life 12 weeks of your life to get the film yeah I don't blame him but it takes him 33:01 nothing to get on the horn and let you interview him though I know if anyone who's an aswick fan who listening to 33:06 this can put a bug in his ear on my behalf as well saying talk to Ryan because I think it'd be fantastic and I even thought about maybe going through 33:13 the list of the movies we've done and maybe just start bugging some I hate to say like obviously I'm not gonna get 33:18 Leonardo Caprio on the horn but maybe some of these other just like side actors Jack O Connell maybe him maybe 33:26 seriously so now let's get to the cast speaking of we were doing things backwards today but that's fine of 33:31 course directed by Ed Wick his last film 2018 the person who did the music of this film did the Jack Reacher film as 33:37 well that's Henry Jackman a serviceable you know another serviceable soundtrack nothing nothing like Glory or Legends of 33:43 the Fall those are once lifetime type films but you talked about the cast The Only Name I knew was Laura dur same yeah 33:52 I didn't recognize anyone by face so this was a hugely independent film and 33:57 that which is great that these actors get a chance to work with edwick to get their name on a resume type thing let's 34:03 start with Jack oconnell who played Cameron Todd William I'm a new fan of this young guy 34:10 I want to see other stuff he's in he's from England too by the way yeah I I I thought not only an American accent 34:16 American hillbilly accent I thought he was incredible he played the [ __ ] 34:22 white trash jock not jock hillbilly country bunin he played that part the 34:27 Ang R guy he played that great then he played the heart 34:32 torn dad who lost his family he played that well too he's going through that 34:39 array of emotions meaning from first angry that he's in jail pleading for his innocence but resigning to his fate 34:46 embracing his fate becoming a bit of a guru in his own way to even the guards I love that whole story arc with the guard 34:52 right where yeah I know that was tender it was nice and again I don't really want to spoil I we won't spoil too much 34:58 more of that because that's I don't know if that really happened that might have been again just for story purposes but the show that we as a viewer kind of 35:05 went through that Journey with the guard like yeah this guy's guilty he's an a-hole and he probably did do something or some sort of neglect call him baby 35:12 burner baby killer like that yeah oh yeah yeah it was yeah it's horrible he 35:17 was treated very poorly when he first went to jail and then you know throughout the course of his prison term 35:24 him and the guard actually became friendly and to the end where he was giving him words of encouragement when 35:30 he was going into his final I don't know lethal injection yeah that sounds pleasant okay 35:37 I got a couple questions for you you're on death row how do you want to be killed probably lethal injection you 35:44 think so I I don't want to be electrocuted I don't want to be hung yeah well hanging is the worst the 35:50 idea of your net breaking even though it's apparently it's supposed to be instantaneous when it's done properly but I've heard too many horror stories 35:56 of it's not quite working yeah I also hear that the lethal in injection like hurts like Burns you from 36:03 the inside out I don't know how I don't know yeah who did they interview for that though that's weird yeah I know 36:08 maybe the experts that know what the what the chemical cocktail does who knows and I'm surprised they should feel 36:13 anything why can't they put them out like we can put people out for heart surgery why can't they do the same why can't they just literally put you out 36:20 and then put Puppy full of like Dro like who cares at that point who cares why feel 36:28 anything yeah cut my head off just as long as I'm out cold who cares I think I think Guillotine that might be the most 36:35 effective way because it's just a big razor blade comes down at 100 kilometers an hour or miles an hour you're gone 36:40 yeah that might be the most Le one of the least Humane but maybe the most easy to deal with I don't know what about 36:47 Utah they still do the shooting I I heard that is is that a fact the firing squad that's ridiculous 36:55 like you can choose that right it's not their number one method but you can choose it if you're the the death row 37:01 inmate yeah oh oh is that right okay I think lethal injection might just be the way to go I think I'd rather just feel 37:07 the burning yeah like the most Humane I guess not to be all Mor to people I 37:13 apologize but look I think you're not human if you don't ask yourself I'd rather drown to death and burn be burnt alive things like that right oh God 37:21 drowning though you're panicking but at least it's not that painful it's a bit of a panic I think when you're suffocating but then you just black out 37:27 yeah I I think just suffocating in all is probably a brutal way to go like Conor smoke in but then 37:37 again smoke inhalation is also not that bad because like it's the same idea you just get blacked out yeah get knock get 37:44 that's different than burning alive that's thing nobody really burns alive I think the smoke knocks them out first I 37:49 think that's the Hope unless you're literally being put I hate this an oven with no smoke but oh oh God okay do you 37:56 all right we'll talk off fair but yeah that's bad okay oh yeah then the other question I have for you what would a 38:03 little more lighthearted question here what would be your what would be your last meal I thought about this too and I 38:09 really don't know I love a good juicy steak but I eat steak quite often so I don't know if that would be a good last 38:15 meal I I have no idea I guess if you're on death row you have time to think about it when you're 38:21 spending years on the row yeah you might have miss those nice juicy like that really expensive one from ja P wagu 38:29 maybe one of those yeah oh yeah yeah I think I'd ask for probably Sushi yeah 38:35 yeah okay because that's you could eat a lot of and just just a lot of sushi with a lot of soy sauce to dip it in and then 38:42 for dessert I don't know maybe like a chocolate chip mint to milkshake yeah 38:48 all right yeah you got to go with the ice cream yeah yourself stick you might as well so yeah Jacko Connell looks like 38:54 he got a a bludge budgeting budgeting blooming career or whatever the burgeoning thank you bludgeoning he's 39:02 killing it he's killing it he's 34 he's done some stuff he's in 39:08 the new film coming out called 28 years later the sequel to 28 Days Later that zombie film so he's in that one yeah so 39:15 good for him I'm looking forward to that yeah so he's in that one he was in Ferrari see it's funny Ferrari is 39:22 directed by Michael man who's another director that I tossed around of doing films for the same idea oh yeah another 39:28 director he did last moin Miami Vice Manhunter and so Michael man has a kind 39:34 of a really cool a heat of course so I don't I might even do that one first I really wanted to do Michael man was my 39:40 second choice before I thought of Terrence mik actually yeah all right so anyways Ferrari directed by Michael man 39:46 he was in that as well so if I do a Michael man podcast we'll be covered Jack again regarding that okay doesn't 39:52 look like he's a marquee name on it though no probably not Adam Driver in it 39:58 Adam dri is in it great last name for a Ferrari movie he's six in the film so it's not like he's not nothing but 40:04 you're right yeah okay Adam Driver plays enzel Ferrari penelopee Cruz can you 40:10 believe she's already 50 yeah good for her good for Tom Cruz okay remember when 40:15 they were dating Cruz when they okay Laura D I didn't have any real 40:21 like before the film any real thoughts on Laura Duran as an actress good or bad I've seen her in things 40:28 but after watching this movie I will say she is an actress I would like to see more of her stuff I thought she was 40:35 fantastic I agree I don't know her range so to speak the main things I know are 40:41 from her Jurassic Park and sure Last Jedi I've probably seen her in other things that I really didn't pay that 40:47 much attention to her but the thing that I really noticed about her in this film was the evolution of her interactions 40:54 with Todd the first time she goes to meet him she's reserved and shy and very 41:00 quiet and shy giggles and stuff she didn't know how to approach the meeting and then you see her evolve into really 41:07 caring for this guy but the way she acts it like her first meeting with him it's 41:12 also a visual thing because she's withdrawn physically but yeah no like I I thought she was great I thought she 41:18 was great in this yeah she was really very good in fact she doesn't pop up until the last half of the film so like 41:24 when's she coming in but yeah it was perfect when she came in it's done very well it's almost like a 41:30 like the second half of the film is their relationship so the first half is how did he get there why is he there 41:35 what's his life like and then she comes in like a Saving Grace it gives him a bit of that second reason to live so to 41:41 speak because his wife visit him his kids are dead but I love there's one scene that I really loved where of 41:48 course she's a female she's attractive and he's just a man and she comes to visit him I think they both have this 41:54 little bit of penel crush it's never really verbalized but it's there right he's a handsome guy he's charismatic 42:01 she's getting attention from him and he's getting attention from from her and but it's funny he asks her remember to 42:07 spin around and her dress she doesn't do it though no what do you think of that scene where she says no I thought it was 42:13 also very realistic where he's trying to tell her to spin in her dress for him and she's says no but then they still 42:20 discontinue their relationship what do you think of that it's to be expected you're on death row you have zero 42:25 contact with the outside world which also means you haven't seen any females in in this case years right right so 42:31 when he first meets her she's an attractive girl and the second time she comes to visit him she dolls herself up 42:37 so yeah did did you notice that that she has on yeah so he does probably with 42:43 what anybody who hasn't seen a female in six years or however long it was he ask her to stand around and do a twirl for 42:49 her and it visibly made her so uncomfortable that he realized he [ __ ] 42:55 up so he just dropped it and never mentioned it again which I think is the 43:00 way to go shoot your shot cuz and if it doesn't work shoot your shot and if it 43:06 doesn't work recognize it and just don't make it uncomfortable again great 43:11 interaction between the two characters even though you guys who are listening to this 43:17 know the outcome of the trial the outcome of his life please watch this movie you'll be 43:24 amazed by the acting alone the actress who play the wife Stacy played by Emily Mee she was great in it every character 43:32 or actor does a great job and yeah I think in some ways he maybe had to have 43:37 unknowns Laura D's no unknown she's the Marquee actress but the actor who played 43:43 camon Todd it's good they got an unknown because you can't have obviously I don't know let's say somebody that age because 43:49 it was he's young like the real life person 22 or no it's like 21 or yeah I 43:55 think he was 36 when he actually died that's right so you have to get an actor that look young but then look in their 44:00 30s at the end but like Jack O Connell is only 34 right now so he was eight 44:06 seven years ago he would have been 27 so that's kind of the perfect age there yeah I'm trying to think of an actor I 44:12 don't I'm trying to think of someone who's young that could play that wouldn't be quotequote popular like a 44:17 marquee name so they got the emote though yeah they definitely got the right person you have to have somebody 44:23 that can really show that range of emotion I think going with with an unknown because you could put a face on 44:29 this guy whatever face you want because it wasn't a major story so you don't have to find somebody that matches his 44:36 body size or type or anything you could have fun with it but you pick anybody as 44:42 long as they can act it we should also mention the film was adapted of course with ewick as per normal he do part of 44:49 the adaptation but it was credit to a screenplay by Jeffrey s Fletcher and of 44:54 note he's only done three films this guy his first film was a big film he wrote precious in 2009 that one made waves if 45:02 don't if you remember that one precious so he wrote that film now that was also adapted from a novel but he wrote the 45:07 screenplay for that one then he did one called Violet and Daisy in 2011 and then this one in 2018 so that's it for his 45:14 filmography that's all he's say that's all he's done but as far as films those are the three films he's uh 45:21 written yeah um that's uh again that's yeah Jeffrey s Fletcher 45:27 har a Harvard graduate so now we're g to get into yeah the one I think this is the one little 45:34 blip and this is the last one we'll do for this podcast series it's sad but here we go the last little blip from the 45:40 audio book Alan Stewart and Alex Soros knew how much trial by fire meant to me 45:46 and together as producers made it happen we were proud of adding its voice to the rising chorus of those speaking up 45:52 against capital punishment if I'm not smart enough to work with Laura dur again 45:57 I have only myself to blame our collaboration was a Love Fest from day one she is movie 46:03 royalty High Praise indeed and I'm really happy to hear that I'm not surprised sometimes you can get that 46:08 with actors I they're just humans like us Doug they're just human beings and just like any kind of co-worker or even 46:14 the teller at a grocery store you can gauge people's arura they and you could just tell with Laura D even just as 46:21 she's playing a character you kind of sense from her that she seems like a really sweet great person and I saw in 46:26 couple interviews regarding this film on the circuit back in the day when this film came out she just seemed like a great person to talk to she seems like a 46:33 really sweetheart of a person yeah and and her character matches that it also raises the question of karma in a way 46:40 for lack of a better phrase because her character has done nothing but good in 46:45 this situation to help to spend her own time to help Todd and then she ends up 46:50 in a crash and getting paralyzed where's the Justice in that that's what's crazy when that happened I Googled that right 46:56 away you got to be kidding me really this lady who's helping this guy on death rad she gets paralyzed in a car 47:02 accident yeah it just shows you this whole case the dead children the innocent man of 47:09 the death row the person helping him gets par like everybody everybody 47:14 involved got the [ __ ] end of the stick yeah the on the good side of things yeah 47:19 the bad people got away with yes the investigators the prosecutor the 47:25 governor judge the defense attorney like even him piece of [ __ ] it's weird and 47:31 even the criminal who lied on the stand to get him yeah yeah he got away he had 47:36 his freedom he tried to cleanse his soul though at the end he wrote a letter to 47:41 the district attorney who put it in a draw so Laura durab note she's 58 now do 47:48 you know who her parents are did you know this Bruce St I did not know that yeah Bruce St and Diane lad are parents 47:56 did you know that no I didn't are we idiots for not knowing that cuz it's like right there in her name especially 48:03 with the bruer and Dian mom she's Hollywood royalty look her up folks and 48:09 she was married for eight years to Ben Harper have you seen young pictures of 48:14 Laura Duran she's hot knock out dude knock 48:20 out I she's an attractive I mean she's she's an attractive older woman but yeah 48:25 for sure I remember from Jurassic Park that was the funny thing about Jurassic Park was the criticism that not she 48:31 faced but Sam Neil her husband is so much older which is not against the law 48:37 but their age Gap is quite big yeah she's no she's very pretty I'm not one to weigh on an age 48:44 Gap what is the age of Sam Neil so she's 58 now what's the age of Sam Neil now 48:50 that's the question's see here so if they were still married Let's Pretend their characters were their ages okay so yeah 48:57 19 years older there you go H hits the nail right on the head is that how much 49:03 older you are I'm 19 years older than my wife oh you're a sad meal your 49:08 wife's so when you're 77 SMA will be 58 49:14 56 58 yeah 58 thr away wow look at that you are a Jurassic Park Bravo to Sam 49:21 Bravo to Doug okay yeah that's fantastic okay boy this is I guess I'm just 49:26 talking on my butt now because I don't want this to end but this is the last film yeah I'm just I'm torn because I'm 49:32 really excited about doing the same thing again with different directors what I might do is at the very least announce that I've done that on this 49:39 feed for those other films so standby for a Michael man I think that will be the next one you could you what you 49:45 could do is it would require changing the name of the Fe I know changeing the network to like the director's Network 49:51 or something yeah yeah and just like season one was Edge's Wick you know what I mean you could go on you know what 49:57 that's true you can change the feed name you can change the feed name on on 50:02 season one zwix flicks yeah you're right you know what that's not a bad idea considering that our buddy Craig has 50:08 done that Brian to Palma you could actually add him to the network and sure yeah you could make him his own season 50:14 he could be season two and then season three could be Michael man type thing yeah last of the trauma director's 50:20 Network so don't cancel your feed folks it might just be easier to some degree to just retitle 50:27 the podcast to call it the director's Network podcast or something like that or some sort of network regarding 50:32 directors because I think come up with a name we'll think of something yeah so if you cancel the feed it's your fault yeah 50:38 because I think it might just be easier the party ends it's definitely easier then you're gonna have 100 different feeds for 100 different directors you're 50:46 right I could just change the yeah it's probably just easier to change the title of the show and this is season one so 50:52 okay here we go so there you go folks this ends season one of insert insert uh network name here 51:00 that's right it could be this is season one of the director's network podcast 51:06 yeah seamless seamless so if you have enjoyed the Journey of edwick and you 51:12 feel like you're up to the task to volunteer and coming on the Michael man I I think I'm gonna make it this 51:18 official because I it was my second pick officially was Michael man so if you want to come on the Michael man Journey 51:24 hit me up on the socials on the email it's in the show notes or you can just Google my name hit me up I'm pretty easy 51:30 to get a hold of Doug thank you so much for coming on I guess can I invite you to join me on the Michael man season 51:36 absolutely absolutely I'm I'm looking forward to it I feel like I I can't say enough about this movie like I I just 51:42 want to keep going on and on but what a swan song If this is his last film it 51:47 just sucks that it flew under the radar because it's such a phenomenal wrapup it's heavy it's heavy this is a movie 51:53 that you don't watch more than once or twice because it ways on your soul but everybody man top to bottom did a 52:00 phenomenal job in this and thank you for making me watch it and being a part of the 52:05 discussion it was my pleasure and I'm really glad that you were here for that as well for your perspective for your side of the law perspective your journey 52:11 with that and seeing that that part of the world highly recommend this film in fact all of his films I highly recommend 52:17 and maybe that's actually maybe I could do even a bonus episode actually that's what I'll do a bonus episode by myself 52:23 so stand by for a bonus episode where where I'm gonna rank my rankings of these films all right cool from top to 52:30 bottom yeah I think that would be a fun exercise so stand by for that bonus and then I'll definitely have the new name 52:36 for the podcast by then and so that'll be on the new moniker and plugging season two with Michael man so there you 52:42 go I forgot I was going to do that actually that I was going to rank the film so stand by for i' be interested to 52:47 hear if my ranking Falls in line with some of yours okay I heard it here first folks yeah all right thanks everyone 52:54 thanks Doug and thank you everyone who joined us for zwix flick his feature films on uh this podcast season thank 53:02 you wonderful 53:23 [Music] we