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#44 Microdose on Overcoming Shame and Embarrassment · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

I'm Dr. Sarah Olivo and I'm Dr. Liz Seidler and you're listening to College is Fine. Everything's fine.Hi listeners. It's been a while since we've done a series, um, microdose episode. So that's what we're going to start with today. And we have some really exciting episodes coming up to talk about one of my favorite topics. Something that really plagued my adolescence and young adulthood, which is shame and embarrassment.Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Pretty primetimeAnd if you're lucky, we'll share some personal stories, how we've recovered. And really what we're hoping for is that you'll listen to the series and you'll have some tools that you can use when you inevitably are in a situation where you're feeling probably one of a really hard, uncomfortable emotion.Right. I think, one thing that people might be curious about is why we're kind of fusing shame and embarrassment and I think it might be helpful to talk about the difference between shame and embarrassment. Although the skills we're going to talk about today, you can kind of use whichever one you're feeling, you know, but shame is really when you feel like there's something wrong with you. And embarrassment is how you feel if there's something you feel like you've done wrong. And so I think sometimes shame can be a harder emotion for people and they tend to push it away in some kind of reactive ways at times because it does feel like a little deeper maybe, but both kind of fall in that same category where you just want to crawl, you know, either crawl out of your skin orgo kind of internalYeah. So in this first microdose episode, Sarah and I thought it would be helpful. You know, emotions are really complicated. And at the same time, I think they're, they're not really complicated once you really understand what emotion you're experiencing. And so in upcoming episodes, we'll talk more about applying some of the things that we talked today about with some experts that we've asked to come on and share some of their insights and their own work. So should we get started with talking about shame and when it makes sense to feel it and when it doesn't, I think even just defining the emotion, you know, Always get shame and guilt confused. So I think just starting there is. Understanding that guilt is when you've kind of violated your own personal values ? I feel guilty because maybe I was. Dishonest about something with a friend and shame is more when you've violated societal values That you've done something that a group would reject you, you know Like for example, I could say a criminal behavior or something like that now the interesting thing and I don't know about you Sarah, but so many of the College students I work with feel shame all the time, but they are not engaging in behaviors that are shameful, like do not fit that definition.You know, they're not running around in the streets, you know, cursing with like no clothes on or something like that. You know, they're not doing anything that really would warrant social rejection.And in some cultures, cursing withno clothes on is totally fine. But I think, um, no, I always say when people come in and they, they, you know, I'm sure we get this where they're like, I have to tell you something and I've never told anyone. And they say something that's completely normalthat I hear a hundred times a day and like do it myself. Um, so I think of it as one of the more hair trigger kind of pull emotions. It's like just waiting to pop up. You know, it's just kind of sitting there, just waiting to pop out at any moment. And despite the fact that the likelihood that people are doing truly shameful things, um, that go against kind ofcultural societal norms is pretty, pretty low.Pretty Right. So I guess maybe we could kind of tease that out a little bit. So when is it justified? Like when would somebody know that? I think understanding like, is it justified for me to feel shame versus it not justified for me to feel shame? Um,right. And I love how that word justified acts as if it's like,I know that's kind of a tough one. So I say that, I will talk about justified versus unjustified emotions. And it's worth noting that we're really talking about emotions that kind of almost like fit thefacts of why we have them from like a humansurvival evolutionary perspective as opposed to like you shouldn't feel that way, right?It's more like These are the reasons we have these emotions to keep us connected in our society and to keep us safe from harm. And it's about, you know, so we have things like shame and guilt because it's a way to sort of keep us connected to our society and connected to Our culture, you know, and I think the reason it's kind of a hair trigger pull, especially at this time when there's so manynew relationships coming on and new situations is because like we had it back in the day because if we didn't feel those feelings, our, you know, our clan would have pushed us out and we would have literally beeneaten by the wolves, right? Like it was actually important to feel a little guilt if you did something wrong or a little bit of shame if you went outside the norms. So that left us being, you know, in our, in our tight little community. Um, but I think there are times I'm trying to think, oh gosh, now you want me to tell me times I've actually should have been ashamed. Um, I, I can tell you about a time that I think I, I've certainly learned some lessons, but I could be, and you know, I still like to talk. I like to talk to people. And I think back in the day I would talk about people. And it's something where occasionally. I can think of a time where if I was feeling a bitinsecure about something, I might have like upped the negative conversation about that person, even if they didn't deserve it.I'm not trying to think of a specific time. I would, I don't want to say like I was like out there spreading crazy rumors, but I look back and I'm like, you know what? I did feel like that wasn't who I wanted to be as a person and I was doingthat out of insecurity. I think it's a good example too that, um, It's even when you're describing it, it seems like, cause I think another piece to keep in mind is that the intensity sometimes of the shame that we experienced or the duration, like how long the emotion stays around for sometimes doesn't fit the facts of the situation, right?So it seems like you're like, maybe I could have experienced a little bit more of the shame. Cause maybe it would have helped me change my behavior. But like it also, in that example that you gave, I wouldn't say like, Worrying about it or thinking about it 24 7 right or it's staying around for that long would fit the facts of the situation that a lot of people.even though it still lives in an icky feeling, may kind of gossip or talk about people behind their back at times, right? So I think another thing that I try to think about is like, does it fit the facts? Like, would most people say in this situation that this is a behavior that you should feel ashamed of?And then Also keep in mind that sometimes our alarm system, our emotional alarm system can kind of intensify the, uh, emotion where it doesn't fit the facts. So maybe you should feel it, but maybe like, not so intense. Um, you know, you were talking about shame and embarrassment, and I still, even just talking about this, it makes me want to hide.Um, cause this is also not like me, if you know me, but, um, year was. Wild for a lot of reasons and I got to finals and I went to the wrong final. Um, like sat in the room. Was administered like it was a blue book guys. We didn't use computers. We had to like write in this blue book, admitted that like was fully in a final that was not mine.And until I got like the other pamphlet that like had the questions and I saw the title of the course, did I realize that I was in the wrong final? Um, And then what happened after in terms of like getting out of the room and corresponding with the professor, um, I just was, I froze. I was standing there.There was like talking happening. I mean, I just, it was awful. I didn't even say anything. Eventually I just literally left, even though the professor was like talking to me. Um, so like, that's an example, I think you're talking earlier that like, embarrassment for sure, right? But the amount of shame I felt about that, I mean, I, I don't even think I told anyone.I don't think I told my parents. I didn't tell anyone. I mean, luckily, I was able to like email my anthropology professor and be like, you know, I, in a stressful moment, I went to the wrong place. Can I please take my exam? Um, but I might be sharing this with listeners for like the first time, cause it's so in terms of my, I think this is also where I felt guilty, like me being responsible and organized and then like doing something like that, you know, but I, I was like, my friends were like, what's wrong?Like, you look like something happened today. I wouldn't refuse to tell anyone cause I was so. I was like, they're going to judge me. They're going to really think like, I'm not the good student that I present myself as.Whereas I'm listening to that. I'm like, Oh, it sounds like a regular Wednesday for me in college. You know, I'm like, what? What's wrong with that? You met a new professor. It's fine. But right. So the point is like you probably it wasover You know, it was a it was alittle social mishap or not even a socialmishap.I kind of a you know Yeah, it was a little mistake. But And I also think there are certainly times where People get embarrassed. I don't always embarrass easily In a, maybe not the best way, but there are certainly times where I think people get embarrassed where you, um, you know, you're, you're going out there and you say something.And we, we do talk about this in some future episodes, but maybe you said the wrong thing, or yousent a text that was a little bit flippant, you know? And so, yeah, there might be a need for like, okay, a little embarrassment to say, oh, I might need to course correct. Um, or there might be some things where people literally, like you're saying, you're so embarrassed and everyone else I'msitting being like, I don't understand, you know?So it's so, it's so objective, but I think. One of the reasons why it's so important to know the difference, why are we going on and on about this is because depending on whether it fits the facts or not, um, or depending on whether you might be kind of overly involved, you know, hooked into this emotion or not, you have a different skill set you want to use.And so that's what we want to talk about today, which is when the emotion is justified or fits the facts, meaning like, okay, there's some reason you're having this emotion that's trying to give you some good information. We would go into problem solving, right? And if you have something that you think, okay, it's a bit of a hair trigger pull, again, shame being oftentimes not there because, you know, you don't really have something to hide that's just more about some of the other kind of security or insecurity noise you might have in your head, um, you would engage in something we call opposite action.So, problem solving might feel like a little bit It's a little bit simpler to explain, I would imagine, right? So what are the ways that someone might problem solve if they really truly do something where, okay, some shame or guilt or embarrassment might fit the facts of the situation?I think that depending on the situation, like I would say most of these encounters are socially related, right? That's where this emotion kind of comes up. And if you're feeling that emotion and a relationship is at stake or there's a reason why you, um, want to kind of come clean and repair things, that's essentially what you would do.So you'd really try to brainstorm, what could I do to either, Let's say in this, like deal with the consequences, exceptionally accept the consequences of what's happened in terms of my behavior. If it's relational nature, can I kind of repair, come clean, apologize appropriately for what I said or did. And then last, which I think is most important is emotions motivate us to change our behavior.So some of your problem solving might be like, okay, Hey, the next time I have the urge to share like private information about someone else. With someone, what am I going to do to make sure that I don't do it that the next time, you know, like what got in the way of me being more private about this, um, and make sure that I don't have the urge, you know, how am I going to manage the urge in the future?Right. Absolutely. Right. It's like a little bit of a, like the, you gain some wisdom, right? And wisdom comes with experience. And so the other side of it though, can be a little harder because it's, first of all, you have to figure out. If the emotion feels like it fits the facts or not, um, and sometimes that can be confusing, right?But again, if you really stick with our version of like, is it kind of there for thereason it's supposed to be there to really keep you on track with like societal, um, norms, uh, et cetera, and social relationships. Um, if, if not, and again, with shame. So, if you're not sure, you might want to lean towards assuming it's not, right?Check yourself but it's probably not. Um, then you would go into opposite action. And so, opposite action, first of all, I kind of hinted at some of the behaviors that happen when people or when I feelsome shame, I kind of hide. I don't reach out. I might sort of assume that people are mad at me, and so I go a bit more internal.Or I over apologize. I kind of excessively,or we see this happen, right, where people kind of excessively ask for forgiveness or check that their behavior was okay or notRight. Um, you would not want to do those things. Right?Right, that's thekind of action urge. Or like, right, so go for it. Um, that's, that's the action urge. And so opposite action is saying, okay, wait, I have the urge to do these things, but that's basedon some misinformation. And I want to act proud, or actcalm and steady. like, you know, not conceal things. A lot of times I have, you know, my example, I'd be like, what's the big deal? Like, just tell people you made a, you You went to the wrong thing, right? Like just don't hide personal characteristics that really are not shameful. So I think Sarah, the point that you made that like, you probably need to practice some opposite action, you know, that you're probably feeling the intensity of this emotion too much. It doesn't fit the Fox's situation. And you should probably do whatever behavior you don't want to do without hiding it from other people because the chances they're going to reject you, you know, sharing an opinion or a belief that you have, in an appropriate way.Yeah, yeah. And obviously there might be people out there, you know, like if you're outthere like stealing puppies, , don't practice opposite action, you know, maybe a little like up the shame, but I'm guessing that those folks aren'tlistening to this episode. So I think, you know, I, I certainly think that connecting when I think about acting proud, what would that be like or acting confident?It would be, you know,Sending a text to that friend that you thoughtmaybe, oh, I shouldn't have said that, you know, saying, hey, let's grab, let's grab coffee, or, um, going out of your dorm room, um, going and showing up toyour class or emailing your professor, right? Like, do the things you're like, and, and sometimes I think it's helpful, I'm sure I've said it here before, if you don't quite know how to do that instinctively, be like, if, if I had a magic wand and I could literally wave away shame, embarrassment, or guilt,what would I be doing naturally? And then do those things, engage in those actions. You can separate the feeling from the action. And if you go and you act proud or confident or calm or steady, you know, um, you're going to probably start to feel those things more quickly than if you kind of swimaround in your Yeah, like a simple I love how you said that that reminds me a client I was working with today. They finally got in the gym. The gym on campus is like a bigOh, yeah.in terms of like I can't do it. I can't go to the gym I got my patient into the gym they Basically made a mistake with a machine that like the track went off the pulley or something like that.But for the first time, and now they're convinced that they can't go, right? They're like, I made this huge mistake. Everyone noticed. Like it was so embarrassing. Like people are like, why is this girl in this gym? She doesn't know what she's doing. But I love what you said. Like take the emotion out of it.What would you want to be doing? Like what is your value or what would you want to be doing? And it's like taking care of my body. Okay. If you're going to take care of your body, how do you do that? And how would you, if that had never happened, appear confident and capable of doing whatever you want to do.SoYeah,it's a hard skill. Like I do, I do know we say this being like, all right, opposite action. I mean, we, when I had to practice opposite action, it's hard. It's exhausting sometimes,especially if you have to kind of keep doing it. But I think the goal is to say, if you engage in it, you're actually going toget rid of that struggle more quickly.You know, it's sort of like you rip the bandaid off and you're actually going to feel, actually feel more steady and confident more quickly if you can do it. Sowe do want to just end there to say, like, listen. Easier said than done. We know, but we wouldn't give it to you if we didn't think it could be really helpful.And we always are open. If you have questions more about this and let us know, but we have two episodes coming up or we'll talk more specifically. One is when you've made a social blender, what do you do and ways to make upfor it and kind of in more detail. And the other is that imposter syndrome. We hear so often from people, they get to college in some way, shape, or form, and they decide, I am not supposed to be here, you know, and people are going to find out pretty quickly. So that is imposter syndrome. So we're going to have two episodes and make sure to follow, like, subscribe, et cetera, and stay tuned forthose. good. Bye. Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories and their advice. This podcast is for college students and we want input by college students, so please reach out by text, email, or voice memo to CollegesFindPodcast at gmail. com or 929 500 2231. Tell us your story, give us tips on topics you'd like to hear, or give us feedback about an episode.Follow us on Instagram at colleges find podcasts for episode announcements and resources. 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