Latest / Finding New Waters / The Origins of NA and the Message That Survived | Chris Budnick and Boyd Pickard

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The Origins of NA and the Message That Survived | Chris Budnick and Boyd Pickard · Finding New Waters

0:00
You know, people mobilize to try to help themselves, and that's
0:05
really the case of Narcotics Anonymous.
0:07
Nobody believed that addicts could recover.
0:10
People mobilize together who had experience and created that
0:14
space where addicts could find hope and find a new life.
0:22
Before I do the introductions like this, Chris Budnick,
0:25
welcome back. First of all, one of a handful
0:27
who have been on the podcast more than once, Please tell us
0:31
about the velour tracksuit. What up though?
0:35
I need to start with that. What up?
0:38
I work at healing Transitions and we had a a tough stretch.
0:43
We had a participant death unexpectedly on February 8th.
0:48
And then the very next day we had a alumni who worked for us
0:52
named Byron, who was found deceased at his home from
0:56
massive kind of medical event. But I was 48, really interesting
1:02
individual, was a physician, lost his license, came through
1:06
our program, silver chipped I think in 2019, moved into one of
1:12
Boyd's recovery houses, had pending legal stuff, went to
1:18
South Carolina. Justin Garrity drove him down
1:20
there. Like, you know, if you do a
1:22
little, we'll do a little. Justin Garrity drove him down
1:24
there, you know, spoke on his behalf at the sentencing.
1:28
So he ended up with a couple of years in South Carolina when he
1:32
got out. You know, like, we have a
1:34
writing program where people are writing participant staff, write
1:38
people when they're locked up, give them support.
1:41
So when he came home, came back to Wake County, we immediately
1:46
put him to work in our drop in shelter.
1:48
He was doing care coordination that evolved into care
1:52
coordination for our men's campus.
1:54
And so essentially physician without a license to practice
1:58
still being able to draw upon his skills.
2:02
And in December, he was one of the two employees of the year,
2:06
which is just kind of an open nomination process from from
2:10
participants, alumni in the community and Doctor Brian
2:14
Clausner with Wake mad and actually nominate him for
2:18
employee of the year because of the collaboration that they had
2:21
done. And how much benefit Doctor
2:23
Klausner saw with having Byron and his skill set working with
2:28
homeless individuals with addiction who often have
2:31
complicated Co occurring medical issues.
2:37
Since he wasn't practicing medicine anymore and working in
2:41
healing transitions, he often wore Adidas track suits.
2:45
And the staff and participants said we need to wear track suits
2:50
for Byron Day. And I bought this thinking this
2:56
will be a one time wear. I got into it and I thought this
2:59
is really comfortable. But yeah, so wearing this in
3:05
honor of Byron today. Well, thank you for sharing
3:09
that, and you wear it well. And I know I didn't know Byron,
3:13
but I knew of him. And I know you know, our friend
3:15
Thomas Hawkshead and my friend and colleague at New Waters, you
3:19
know, and he's told me what a great loss it is for you.
3:22
So thank you for sharing. And we'll do this episode in
3:25
honor of Byron. Very good, that works for me
3:28
well. Thank you all for being here.
3:29
So Chris Bodnick from Healing Transitions, then Boyd Picard,
3:33
who is a builder and real estate developer retired, is here.
3:37
And this, this episode is a little different than usual.
3:42
And I always at least give lip service so that I'm just going
3:45
to kind of facilitate and let you talk.
3:47
And I really do plan to do that today.
3:50
So the two of you are here to talk about the chronology and
3:54
history and from what I gather, the kind of overdue publicity
4:01
without publicity in the traditional sense for Narcotics
4:05
Anonymous. So most people, I was dropping
4:07
my mom and stepdad off at the airport this morning and I was
4:10
kind of telling him what I was doing today.
4:11
And even if somebody doesn't know anything about recovery or
4:16
alcoholism or addiction, I feel like most people at least know
4:20
what a A is. And they're you know, I mean,
4:23
when I was in freshman in high school, I saw a movie made for
4:26
ATV movie. I think we they showed it to us
4:29
in class in high school called my name is Bill W about the
4:33
founding of a A with James Garner is Doctor Bob and James
4:37
Woods is Bill and Gary Sinise is Evie Thatcher.
4:42
So even before I had any idea that I was on my way to knowing
4:46
way more about that, I knew something about it.
4:49
And I just there isn't anything like that with NA and people
4:54
just don't know as much about NA in general.
4:56
So I wanted to give you the floor today and just tell us all
5:00
about it. So I'll start with you, Boyd,
5:03
welcome. Thank you for being here,
5:04
brother. Yeah, thanks.
5:05
I appreciate it. Well, I've just got family
5:08
members who were in both, you know, 12 step programs.
5:12
And so for me, you know, it just became a curiosity about how did
5:18
this particular, I actually had somebody one time say Bill W
5:24
Junior in reference to Narcotics Anonymous.
5:28
And it was just kind of like, you know, how did this
5:31
particular fellowship get started?
5:33
What were the roots of it and stuff like that?
5:35
Because like you, I'd seen the, the a, a movie, OK, and known a
5:40
little bit more about it, especially for my family member
5:43
who was involved in a A and, and so it just became a natural
5:48
curiosity. And, and then I met Chris and
5:52
Chris was further along down the, the history rabbit hole
5:56
than I was. And so he kind of did a really
5:59
good job of guiding me. We would meet for coffee at the
6:04
New World Cafe on Wednesdays before his Home group.
6:07
And you know, anyway, we would, he would actually, we would.
6:14
He gave me a tape one time of Jimmy K talking and at a 20th
6:20
anniversary talk and he said, well, listen to this and let's
6:24
diagnose it when you get back. And and so next week we talked
6:28
about it and stuff like that. Yeah, cool.
6:31
So I I'm person in long term recovery, been introduced to
6:36
various mutual aid groups, went through outpatient treatment,
6:40
inpatient treatment. So personal recovery kind of
6:44
ultimately led to a helping profession path.
6:48
So it majored in psychology as an undergrad, Ended up with a
6:54
internship when I was 21 or so. The internship ended up being at
6:59
a residential treatment facility in Rhode Island.
7:03
Got hired there and, you know, as I was getting some clarity
7:09
about what I wanted to do, I kind of thought I want to be in
7:11
this helping profession area. Ended up coming down to North
7:15
Carolina and working at a place called Charter Northridge that's
7:21
long closed. It actually merged with Holly
7:23
Hill and followed the footsteps of The Who would become the
7:29
founding executive director for Healing Transitions.
7:32
At the time, it was the Healing place.
7:33
A guy named Dennis Parnell and Dennis had gone to ECU.
7:37
Both both of us had the privilege of being denied
7:40
admission to UNC. Chapel Hill's master social Work
7:44
program ended up at ECU and and then from there ended up doing
7:51
an internship in the very beginning days of healing
7:55
transitions as it was kind of getting started.
7:57
So I was in this kind of professionally, probably before
8:04
my internship when I was still working at Holly Hill, there was
8:08
a psychiatrist named Phil Hillsman who mentioned a thing
8:14
that he was doing over in Durham at Mad Hatter's for it was a
8:18
basically a talk that was sponsored by a pharmaceutical
8:21
company. And I kind of crashed that.
8:23
And it was an interesting experience.
8:25
And while I was there, I ended up with a $20.00 gift card to
8:28
Barnes and Noble. And I use that to purchase
8:32
Slaying the Dragon, which was kind of this most comprehensive
8:37
book on the history of addiction and recovery in America, written
8:40
by Bill White and 1st published in 1998.
8:44
And in reading that book, there is a a full chapter dedicated to
8:49
the history of Alcoholics Anonymous and there was kind of
8:52
a page and 1/2 to the history of Narcotics Anonymous.
8:56
So that was one thing that created some curiosity for me.
9:00
Also healing transitions replicated from Louisville, the
9:03
healing place model in Louisville very oriented towards
9:08
Alcoholics Anonymous using recovery dynamics curriculum,
9:12
which was written by Joe McHugh of the Joe and Charlie Big book
9:16
studies. And so there was a real heavy
9:21
kind of a a orientation and a little bit of that Bill Junior
9:26
view of other mutual aid groups like Narcotics Anonymous.
9:31
So there's always that curiosity in history.
9:33
I started studying a lot of a a history, trying to understand
9:37
that story. It turns out I was working with
9:41
the medical director, a guy named Al Mooney, for the healing
9:45
place of Wake County, not healing transitions.
9:48
And his father ended up getting into recovery after going to a
9:54
place called the Narcotic Farm in Lexington, KY.
9:58
And that listening to talks of his dad and talking about going
10:03
to this institution and listening to Al talk about, he
10:06
described his father as going away for six months to this
10:09
prison because the Narcotic Farm was a prison slash hospital.
10:14
And then when he came back, he didn't really recognize him
10:17
because recovery there been a spark of recovery and he was
10:20
just a different person. Another thing that kind of
10:24
contributed to my history thing is we use that Recovery Dynamics
10:29
curriculum. Joe McHugh was from Little Rock,
10:33
AR He had a treatment center there and he had this publishing
10:38
branch called the Kelly Foundation for the Recovery
10:40
Dynamics curriculum. And my boss kindly in 2005, sent
10:45
me out there with another silver chipper who worked for us,
10:48
Rusty, Rest in Peace, and sent me with a flatbed scanner to
10:52
help digitize physical archives of Joe Mcqueeney's.
10:58
And so doing that gave me, I don't know, I think it just
11:03
fueled or fanned this flame, you know, of kind of interest.
11:08
There was a, there's a quote about, you know, if you know
11:10
your history, you know, the sacrifices that have been made,
11:14
you know, what people have done before you came here to kind of
11:18
create the space that we all inhabit now.
11:20
And I was kind of curious about who are those people?
11:23
You know, what did they have to encounter?
11:26
And my life really changed when I was introduced to Boyd in 2007
11:32
because we bring really different skill sets and that
11:37
has allowed us to further kind of what either one of us could
11:42
do alone. And so that's, you know, like
11:47
since since 2007, we've really had a transformation in our
11:53
lives with being mentored by Bill White by doing real kind of
12:00
serious research in archives like the a, a general service
12:04
office archives collaborating with Bill.
12:09
Bill had asked, he says, hey, I'm doing a second edition of
12:11
Slaying the dragon. I'd like it to have a more
12:13
balanced chapter on the history of NA, not a page and a half,
12:17
but comparable to the a, a history.
12:20
And he helped open doors for us and did a lot of mentoring and
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we did just a ton of research. And I think for me, part of
12:31
what's interesting about the story is that individuals with
12:36
alcoholism face stigma, alcohol, individuals with addiction face
12:41
kind of a higher stigma. And the obstacles and barriers
12:46
that individuals with addiction faced, particularly in the 50s,
12:51
sixties, where people just didn't believe that folks with
12:55
addiction could get into recovery.
12:57
And there was often the mindset that the best thing that we can
13:01
do is kind of sequester them, isolate them, segregate them so
13:05
that they're not infecting other people.
13:08
And I mean, there's a lot of threats that people faced when
13:12
they were trying to do this with the Federal Bureau of Narcotics.
13:15
Oh yeah, in New York, where in in the Let me see here during
13:21
the 50s, actually, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics was going
13:24
into. Well, it's actually yeah, early
13:26
50s. We're going into the one meeting
13:28
that they would be having and, and actually start arresting
13:33
people. So it was a big a deterrent, if
13:37
you will, to, you know, to for people that were, you know,
13:42
addicted to substances besides alcohol to be able to meet.
13:45
And but those folks were so determined that for a period of
13:49
time they would have meetings on the Staten Island Ferry.
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So it was pretty cool to be honest with you.
13:55
And and that, that's. Like just the just some basic
13:57
stuff. That said, you're talking about
13:59
the early 50s. What, when, what what?
14:01
Will you just give us a quick background of like exactly when
14:05
in a officially started well. That's a great question.
14:08
Officially, yeah. That's that's a good one right
14:10
there. We we use this scene from the
14:14
movie Inception, about the the most powerful thing as being an
14:18
idea, you know? And the transference of that
14:22
idea. So the idea begins with, you
14:27
know, Bill meeting Doctor Bob and those two going out and, you
14:32
know, carousing the drunks and saying, hey, you know, there is
14:36
a solution here. And, and so not necessarily the
14:40
first people that they contacted ended up getting sober, but of
14:44
course, you know the story that after a while they looked around
14:47
and they realized that they were the ones that were staying
14:50
sober. So they they used the idea of
14:54
helping 1 drunk to another drunk get sober.
14:57
And so we used the inception analogy of can that particular
15:04
idea right there transfer into people that are addicted to
15:09
substances besides alcohol and with that work.
15:12
And so we we start going to the US Public Health Hospital in
15:17
Lexington, KY, which was opened in. 35. 35 And it was for the
15:24
Basically, in a very small nutshell, the US government gets
15:28
involved in treatment and you had to be addicted to substances
15:33
besides alcohol, specifically opiates at that time in order to
15:38
be admitted to the US public health hospital, because if you
15:42
were addicted to just alcohol, you couldn't get in there.
15:45
Or to be sentenced there. Follow up question, is the the
15:48
name of the hospital you just said?
15:50
Is that the same thing as the narcotic?
15:53
Farm. It is, yes.
15:55
Well, why? Why is it so you mentioned and I
15:58
and I honestly I think I mixed up the two thinking that it
16:01
started as the narcotics farm became the healing place in
16:04
Louisville. So those are two separate
16:05
things, one in Lexington, Louisville, why?
16:08
Why Kentucky? Well, so you have to go back.
16:13
First of all, make small plug, we have, we're part of a
16:16
nonprofit called Preserving the Message, which is a group of
16:19
people who are interested in kind of preserving Nas history
16:22
because Narcotics Anonymous World Services doesn't have a
16:26
archives in the same way that Alcoholics Anonymous general
16:29
Service office does. And so there's a YouTube channel
16:32
called Preserving the Message and you can go there and you can
16:35
look at some of what we're talking about in more detail.
16:39
There's a full presentation on the narcotic farm and so forth,
16:43
but it's a story of a rise in addiction during the 1800s.
16:49
This continued, you know, kind of story that repeats itself of
16:54
here's the latest opiate that's non addicting that so, you know,
16:58
like heroin's the miracle drug that's going to replace and
17:02
being non addictive alternative to morphine.
17:06
By 1914, the federal government passes a law that essentially
17:10
cuts people off from drugs. You know, so up to this point,
17:14
you can walk into a pharmacy, just purchase things with
17:17
opiates in it. Do mail order catalogs. 1914
17:20
they passes Harrison Act and it creates this really different
17:24
trajectory for individuals addicted to drugs other than
17:26
alcohol. And there's if you're convicted
17:30
of a federal crime related to the Harrison Act and you're
17:34
federally sentenced to prison. And between 1915 and 1928, it
17:40
got to a place where the wardens were now complaining that these
17:42
new prisoners who are addicts are disrupting their prisons,
17:46
which had not been operating just fine up until the point
17:49
that they started bringing addicts in.
17:51
And they said, we need a place that's not, you know, prison for
17:57
these addicts. And so they came up with this
17:59
hybrid solution. And part of I think why Kentucky
18:03
was chosen was there was a sense of how do we get people out into
18:08
environments where they can work the land, they can be physically
18:12
active, They can, you know, be out of these communities that
18:16
they're in that are, you know, drug and enriched environments
18:21
and so forth. And and essentially you have
18:24
anyone then federally convicted being sentenced there, but they
18:28
also set up this volunteer where you could sign yourself in.
18:32
And that's how a lot of folks kind of came from the community.
18:34
Fort Worth opened in 38 served men from the West of the
18:39
Mississippi. Lexington was east of the
18:42
Mississippi for men, but served women from all across the US.
18:48
And I think where why we end up in that story was of the
18:51
narcotic farm is really due to some great research that Boyd
18:54
did that's local to North Carolina.
18:57
And it's a story of how the first A A group got started in
19:01
Shelby. Yeah, so there was a man who a
19:05
Doctor Who had actually been addicted to morphine for about
19:10
he had about a 12 year addiction.
19:13
His name is Doctor Tom and he actually goes to Lexington.
19:18
And so when the Big Book was published in 353939 OK Scoot,
19:25
thanks. He was actually loaned a copy of
19:29
the Big Book and, you know, he's been there for about 6 months at
19:33
the time. And he reads the book and he
19:36
says, you know, I think these principles right here will work
19:39
for me. So he gets released from the US
19:44
Public Health Hospital in Lexington and he goes back to
19:47
Shelby, NC and he starts what we believe is the very first a, a
19:52
meeting in North Carolina. And so, you know, from there
19:57
it's spread. We've uncovered research in the
20:00
a a Grapevine of where he's written where a Dr. Ian had
20:06
written about wanting a hop heads corner, you know, and he
20:11
says among a as thousands, I know that we could find some
20:16
folks 'cause he wanted some somebody was a.
20:19
You know, addicted to morphine. He wanted somebody that he could
20:22
be able to identify with and he was requesting that they give
20:26
him a hop heads corner on the grape a a Grapevine.
20:30
And our doctor Tom writes back and tells him about the little
20:36
hamlet of Shelby, and that they have as many as six addicts
20:41
recovering with as much as. Five years.
20:45
Five years down to six months that have been drug free from
20:50
from that. And then he actually makes a
20:52
pitch for it would really be, you know, cool if somebody were
20:58
to start a, a meeting in the US Public health hospital in
21:03
Lexington. Yeah, it's it's really so
21:05
interesting because on one hand, you know, like as this solution
21:11
emerges for Alcoholics and that kind of mindset shifts that, oh,
21:17
Alcoholics can get sober and find recovery, it starts drawing
21:23
in other people with dual problems, you know, and so at
21:25
the time you'd have somebody with a dual problem of alcohol
21:29
and drug addiction. And this Doc N, it was the
21:33
Grapevine. First published June of 44.
21:36
By the the third issue of August, Doc N is writing in says
21:39
I, you know, I've stopped fearing alcohol in a way that I
21:44
still fear morphine like I I fear morphine.
21:47
If I could just find someone else who could understand, I'm
21:50
sure it would help me. And what Doctor Tom had
21:54
basically done is he had a group with other addicts in it, people
21:59
with the dual problems, and that identification just existed in
22:02
that group. What Doctor Tom did in Shelby
22:07
became a focal point for Bill W and, and the New York General
22:12
Service headquarters. They learned about this group.
22:16
They learned that there's a addict that's in recovery.
22:22
Bill had a complicated kind of relationship with how he viewed
22:26
folks with a addiction to drugs other than alcohol.
22:30
The presence of people with addiction to drugs other than
22:34
alcohol became a huge issue, resulting in the Grapevine
22:36
article and 58 problems other than alcohol.
22:38
And what can we do about them? But Bill W actually visited
22:42
Doctor Tom and Shelby in 1942, and he speaks about in 47 about
22:48
this, you know, what his experience was.
22:52
And anyways, Doctor Tom for us and our research becomes the
22:56
first person that the Alcoholics Anonymous program helps them get
23:03
into recovery from drugs in addition to alcohol or
23:06
substances in addiction addition to alcohol.
23:09
So that's really like very significant.
23:12
And it's that idea that this is adaptable, that this can apply
23:16
to other problems, but it creates that tension around
23:19
identification. You know, that eventually
23:21
merges. If you have people coming to
23:23
meetings and they're talking about drugs and it's a meeting
23:26
for Alcoholics and people identify.
23:30
It's really fascinating. So during this time, there's a
23:32
guy who's getting sober in a a in Montgomery, AL, named
23:38
Houston, who we don't have any evidence that he's says he read
23:44
these Grapevine articles, but he's getting sober and he's
23:46
deeply involved. You know, he's becomes what Bill
23:50
White would say is a recovery carrier.
23:52
Like he is carrying the message, you know, of how his life is
23:55
transformed. He's on fire.
23:57
He's on fire, you know, and I think to the embarrassment of
24:01
his family at times, some of our research.
24:04
But he meets a guy in his group, AA group in Montgomery who'd
24:09
been to the narcotic farm, stopped drinking but could not
24:11
stop using morphine. And he goes to Frankfort, KY.
24:18
It's job transfer, which is next to Lexington.
24:22
And this what we would say language of the time.
24:24
The straight alcoholic with no history of addiction to other
24:27
drugs goes to the medical director for the US Public
24:31
Health Service Hospital in Lexington says, hey, can I start
24:34
a group here for a 12 step group here for the addicts.
24:37
So the first adaptation of the Alcoholics Anonymous program
24:40
occurs in February 47 with the creation of Addicts Anonymous
24:45
and Addicts Anonymous is this institutional base group for
24:51
folks who are in the narcotic farm.
24:54
It seems mainly to be primarily volunteers versus folks who are
24:59
federally sentenced. You get a lot of doctors going
25:01
to this group. This is where Al Mooney's dad
25:04
ends up. He ends up being part of the
25:06
Addicts Anonymous group. And what's fascinating about it
25:09
is at the time, you know, the they always talked about you go
25:12
to Lexington for the cure and the physicians, Dr. Mooney's
25:19
dad, John Mooney talks about the physician says we're going to
25:21
give you the best that we have to offer, which at that phase of
25:24
the history was psychotherapy. And if only thing is you got to
25:28
agree to stay till we're done. We think that you're cured.
25:33
And he knew that he may leave before that.
25:35
So they said if you're not going to commit to this, the second
25:38
best thing you can try is Addicts Anonymous.
25:41
And that really became the thing that changed his life, you know,
25:44
became the the sustainable solution, not what he would have
25:48
gotten if he got the psychotherapy.
25:49
And it led to this whole ripple effect of coming back to
25:52
Statesboro, eventually starting Willing Way Hospital and so
25:56
forth. So this Addicts Anonymous group
25:59
really becomes this incubator for the idea of, you know, how
26:03
does the Alcoholics Anonymous program get adapted to problems
26:07
other than alcohol? And I think when we're talking
26:10
about Danny and, you know, him showing up in New York and
26:13
starting this early New York version of NA, it really kind of
26:16
comes down to this, you know, this hope that people talked
26:21
about that Danny talked about gaining from his exposure to
26:24
Houston, the Addicts Anonymous group.
26:27
Talk a little bit about Houston. Talk a little bit about that,
26:30
like how that Addicts Anonymous group influenced folks who'd
26:37
been pretty hopeless. Like Danny had been coming in
26:39
and out of the narcotic firm since 35.
26:41
Well, from our research, you know, I mean Houston, like Chris
26:46
said, I mean, and I, I concur with what Bill White talks about
26:51
is that, you know, he's he was really just a carrier of of of
26:57
the message of the hope. And Danny writes about it in one
27:01
of his writings that he had met Houston at long last I learned
27:07
to hope. And so Danny, he actually.
27:11
Tell we tell people who? Who's Danny exactly?
27:13
Yeah, sorry. I I you know, I'm so inundated
27:17
with this stuff right here, there this.
27:20
Yeah, really, I do. But Danny Carlson is a man who
27:25
actually, you know, got addicted to heroin early on.
27:30
He's from Puerto Rico. I think he was adopted, you
27:34
know, and he went to actually the very first, it was there the
27:39
first year that the Lexington opened in 35 five.
27:43
Had eight admissions, yeah. And.
27:46
Between 35 and 49. And.
27:48
Admissions. 8. Admissions. 8 admissions.
27:51
Yeah, it's. You could obviously go back.
27:54
It was a revolving door. I mean it, you know it.
27:55
He had eight. Admissions he had.
27:58
Yeah. And but on the the, we did learn
28:02
that on the 7th one when he did, he went back to New York and he
28:06
did attend an A, a meeting and or at least one anyway.
28:11
And he just didn't feel like he fit.
28:13
And he went back actually obviously went back to use and
28:18
then then he returned to use and then he went back to Lexington.
28:22
And that's actually when he, he came under the mentorship of
28:27
Houston and so stayed there for X number of more months and then
28:33
got released. And when he got released, he
28:36
then actually went to New York and he didn't want to call.
28:42
I mean, he was, you know, he was used to Addicts Anonymous and
28:46
what they were teaching in the rooms there.
28:49
And he didn't want to call his group Addicts Anonymous because
28:52
of the letters AA and didn't want to get it confused with
28:56
Alcoholics Anonymous. And so he coined the phrase
28:59
Narcotics Anonymous and started a group called Narcotics
29:02
Anonymous. It first started at the Women's
29:05
House of Detention. And then he met a lady by the
29:09
name of Dorothy Berry, which she was involved with the Salvation
29:13
Army and she actually found him rooms in their Hell's Kitchen
29:19
facility. And so that was where some of
29:24
the meetings would start, would would go on.
29:27
We do know that that's the facility that the Federal Bureau
29:30
of Narcotics actually raided and stuff.
29:32
And so so Danny was the, you know, one of the first people to
29:38
kind of carry the hope and the message.
29:40
And he actually chose not to adopt the traditions of a A and
29:50
he stayed and aligned himself with some people that were
29:53
pretty strong in the advocacy of, well, how the advocacy.
29:59
Yeah, I mean, he he a few things that he did is he was the first
30:04
person to say, hey, why don't I replicate what's happening with
30:07
Addicts Anonymous in the community?
30:10
And so no long because the folks in the Addicts Anonymous group
30:13
are like, what do we do when we leave here?
30:15
You know, do we go to a a? What if we're not accepted in a
30:18
a, or if, like Danny, if I can't identify this is all
30:23
speculation. He comes out sometime in 49
30:27
starts the first Narcotics Anonymous group at that time.
30:30
The traditions haven't been affirmed at the 1st.
30:33
They're using the 12 steps from a A then to Addicts Anonymous.
30:37
Now in Narcotics Anonymous has a name, but the traditions are
30:40
sort of TBD if. Yeah.
30:42
So the traditions haven't been affirmed till July of 1950.
30:46
So that. Back up for a second, they're
30:48
using a modified version of the AA12 steps because what the what
30:53
Danny does is he takes powerless over alcohol and puts in
30:57
powerless over drugs. This is what the Addicts
30:59
Anonymous group did. They and sometimes they would
31:02
substitute powerless over narcotics, powerless over drugs.
31:05
But so they've modified, they've adapted.
31:07
Step one, Danny, is also is what we'd say when we contrasted to
31:15
the beginnings of the Narcotics Anonymous that exists today,
31:19
which was started by people who had found recovery and
31:23
Alcoholics Anonymous in in North Hollywood, CA, who had a history
31:30
of dual problems with alcohol or the drugs.
31:33
They're coming out of a foundation with a collective
31:37
group. He's a sole individual that's
31:39
coming back and kind of on his own trying to get this going.
31:44
The thing that we kind of look at is the fact that he didn't
31:50
adopt the traditions and the fact that he affiliated with
31:55
professionals, Salvation Army doctors, things like that.
32:00
One was kind of out of necessity, you know, because of
32:03
the way that the Federal Bureau of Narcotics was was treating
32:08
folks with addiction at that time.
32:11
But he created a lot of visibility and started to shift
32:17
or started to plant into the national psyche that maybe folks
32:23
with addiction can find recovery.
32:25
And so you start getting some voices that are kind of the
32:28
counter voice to the best thing we can do is lock them up.
32:32
Or as we saw in congressional subcommittee meetings, the
32:37
proposal of creating an island where addicts could be
32:41
quarantined to like a leper colony.
32:45
And the fact that he spoke publicly and didn't necessarily
32:49
adhere to an 11th tradition type of anonymity put this into the.
32:55
And so Boyd likes to talk about, you know, again, what he would
33:00
have done maybe with social media, but at the time just with
33:03
with the amount of press coverage that he generated.
33:07
Yeah, during during Chris and I's research, you know, it was
33:10
amazing to me the amount of press that the what Chris and I
33:16
term as the early New York NA, which is the Danny Carlson and
33:21
then the West Coast NA, which is Jimmy K and Friends, which is
33:26
the version that actually sustained and evolved in what is
33:30
today. That how little presser was with
33:36
West Coast NA and how massive presser was with with Danny.
33:41
And it was pointed out to me though, that you had the
33:45
publishing hub was actually in New York City as opposed to, you
33:51
know, LA. And so it tends to make more
33:54
sense. But one of the things we do know
33:57
too is that on. So Danny, let me RIP back up a
34:02
little bit. I think, and this is a little
34:06
bit of speculation right here. I think that in response to the
34:10
new the Federal Bureau of Investigation, coming into the
34:14
meetings and arresting people, Danny aligned himself with
34:19
advocates that were pretty much opposed to that type of
34:23
behavior. And also advocates that were the
34:27
jazz community was getting hit really hard at that time and
34:32
were they were advocates about this type of behavior.
34:36
Stopping is basically the easiest way for me to say it.
34:39
One of those was a particular reporter who later became an
34:44
editor for The New York Times who sat on this board called
34:49
Narcotics Anonymous, Inc that Danny and some other people
34:54
created. And so that's one of the avenues
34:57
of, you know, the of the publishing arm.
35:01
Is that right there? So Danny being he was an island
35:07
onto himself in New York, North Hollywood sort of group is doing
35:12
his thing. But he has access to press
35:15
publishing, the jazz community, so he's kind of taken advantage
35:18
of everything at his disposal there to kind of like he said,
35:22
maybe. I mean, we we, we block the
35:23
tradition, but like. We we think about, you know, as
35:27
he as he's described that he started to have hope and faith
35:31
in his last admission through the Addicts Anonymous group.
35:34
And we we put ours try to put ourselves in his shoes of coming
35:37
back hopeful to New York City, trying to persuade other addicts
35:43
join me for a meeting, and then having the Federal Bureau of
35:46
Narcotics come show up and arrest people like that can be a
35:50
pretty alienating experience. You think you're going to get
35:53
your buddies to come back to another meeting after that?
35:55
Yeah, I hear you. But that hope wasn't like,
35:59
despite these draconian kind of measures like that, hope wasn't
36:05
dampened, you know, like he found something.
36:08
And that's again, why we're interested in history is just so
36:10
powerful. He found something that inspired
36:14
him to keep going in in spite of those obstacles.
36:17
As Boyd said, we can't find a meeting place.
36:20
We're just going to meet on the Staten Island Ferry.
36:23
He died of cancer in 56. And he was very intentional
36:28
about not wanting to use any narcotics to deal with the pain
36:32
of his cancer because recovery was so fragile in the attic
36:37
community then he didn't want to give anyone the excuse that
36:41
there's an excuse when it's OK to use narcotics.
36:43
And that type of suffering that he went through is something
36:47
that because of his efforts, countless other people's
36:51
efforts, there's enough recovery stability in our recovery
36:55
communities to say we have experience to how to navigate
36:58
that. You can figure out ways to
37:00
manage pain with end of life challenges and so forth.
37:05
So his work was just, you know, very important.
37:09
Time magazine Saturday Evening Post his deaths, reported New
37:15
York Times, founder of NA. The flip side of it is that
37:20
without, this is how I look at it, without a foundation in the
37:24
12 traditions that talks about rotating leadership and group
37:27
conscience and things like that. Everything rested with one
37:30
individual, he handed off to another individual.
37:34
And then when she died, it kind of disappeared.
37:37
And the difference is, is the Narcotics Anonymous exists
37:40
today. You know, it started off with a
37:45
commitment to the 12 traditions. It veered away from that.
37:48
But its success has been because of that.
37:52
And it's just, you know, just what Bill did with the idea of
37:55
the 12 traditions is really this under told story of, you know,
37:59
how these fellowships have survived their founding
38:02
generation. When we always do this stuff, we
38:05
love getting into the history. We had a few friends who'd be
38:09
like, all right, get to the Today, get to the today's.
38:12
NA, no. No, no.
38:13
I've got a question, though, in, in in the chronology of of the
38:16
chronology in general, because I'm just thinking about the time
38:19
frame of not adapting, adopting that you're adapting, adopting
38:26
the traditions of A A and NA. But they I mean the the 12 and
38:31
12 in Alcoholics Anonymous isn't published till 52, but 53.
38:35
But then but but it had been they've been introduced at a
38:40
conference 3 or 4 years before. So they were being implemented
38:44
without being, you know, in a formal text yet, right Your.
38:47
Your exposure to the traditions would be if you were in a A in
38:53
the 40s and reading the Grapevine, that's the first
38:56
place where Bill's testing out and articulating these things.
39:00
July of 1915, Cleveland, 15th anniversary of a a first
39:06
international conference. They affirm them there and then,
39:11
50. Well, they were called something
39:12
else that right that. No, they're called the 12
39:14
traditions. Then they.
39:15
Were also the 12 points for assuring our future.
39:18
Maybe that's what I'm thinking. Of yeah, but there there was
39:21
also we've come to learn too, that even six months before the
39:25
1950 conference, they published a booklet of them and sent them
39:30
out to known home groups too. So it was a very, if you were,
39:35
my opinion is if you were in a A and if he were at least involved
39:41
in anything within the service structure and knew what was
39:43
going on at the general service office, that you were aware of
39:47
the traditions. I mean, we've read things about,
39:50
you know, Bill to the point of all nausea.
39:52
We've read, we read a really cute line one time that Bill is
39:56
very much allowed to come and speak as long as he doesn't talk
40:00
about those damn traditions. Well, one other question is, I
40:05
mean, not one, but one of many, hopefully.
40:09
So we're talking about Bill comes to Shelby and then this is
40:14
Doctor Tom who is an addict, but is an A A and the what I've
40:18
always known is the first meeting in North Carolina and
40:19
Shelby and in the until you know, pretty recently,
40:24
relatively speaking, you know, a A is for alcohol only other
40:28
everything else is an outside issue.
40:31
And NA is has a little bit of a less, I guess the clear linear
40:36
start than a A does. But as it's starting, what was,
40:40
I mean, do you feel like that Bill, I mean, and Bob for as
40:43
long as he was alive to be part of the influence over was it?
40:47
What do you think they were helpful?
40:48
I mean, obviously like they started a A so you can't deny
40:51
that, but what did they you think they're helpful to NA or
40:53
not? Oh, no.
40:54
Incredibly helpful. I mean, no Bill writing his
40:59
paper of, you know, problems other than alcohol was very much
41:03
a clear line in the sand of who we can help and who we can't
41:08
help. And, you know, so that right
41:12
there, you know, kind of opened the door that there needed to be
41:16
something else more. But see the gift that that Bill
41:20
W gave Narcotics Anonymous was is that he did not tell
41:26
Narcotics Anonymous that he couldn't use the A AS
41:30
copyrighted steps and traditions, OK?
41:34
So it's not that he actually gave permission.
41:38
We've never really found anything like that.
41:41
But what we do know is that when asked he he would not
41:46
necessarily well, he didn't say, look folks, you guys can't use
41:50
them, OK? Never did that come down the
41:52
Pike. And so that, in my humble
41:55
opinion, is the gift of a lifetime right there.
41:58
Yeah. I mean it's.
41:59
Sort of peppered in the the a, a literature that this works for
42:02
everything, even though we also, like it's been said, you know,
42:06
what it works for and what it does, what it doesn't work for.
42:08
And I almost feel like it's pretty obvious.
42:11
But if if it a a had tried to be inclusive for a fellowship, that
42:17
would that would could work for drugs and eventually, you know,
42:21
gambling, sex, whatever it is, Then it probably would have
42:24
gotten to the birth would have been too wide and trying to do
42:28
too much and thus not really succeeded.
42:31
But instead it created the other 12 step fellowships for specific
42:35
reasons. And that's exactly the way it's
42:37
turned out for sure. We'll never know for sure
42:40
whether or not, you know, it could be an all inclusive thing
42:43
to be able to include gambling and sex anonymous and stuff like
42:47
that. But it's definitely, this is the
42:49
way it's gone. And it, you know, it's seems to
42:53
work pretty good. Yeah.
42:54
You know, the NA that exists today was also influenced by
42:58
Addicts Anonymous, aware of what Danny was doing.
43:04
The single most kind of significant innovation that
43:09
today's Narcotics Anonymous did was to to change the wording to
43:13
Step 1. And So what Addicts Anonymous
43:17
and early New York NA did is change Step 1 to a substance,
43:21
drugs or narcotic and narcotics. And what Jimmy K did, despite it
43:27
being just about 100%, you know, heroin addicts at the time, is
43:33
to not make step one about being powerless over narcotics, but to
43:37
be powerless over the condition of addiction.
43:39
So that's a huge shift. And that allowed Narcotics
43:43
Anonymous to welcome individuals with addiction in as drug
43:49
friends changed and so forth so that, you know, when things went
43:56
to a stimulant kind of trend, you know, stimulant addicts are
44:01
coming in. So.
44:03
And there were other people that kind of, you know, thought about
44:06
this this way. There's a woman up in Canada and
44:09
Montreal who was writing Bill W in 57 trying to get him to.
44:15
To the way she asked Bill is would you please identify
44:21
yourself as addicted to alcohol? Because she said she felt like
44:25
that if he were to use that, that that would open the door
44:30
for people with addicted to other substances to be able to
44:35
identify. Because she actually made a
44:37
point is it's not, you know, let me.
44:42
Say she said it's it's not the substance that's the problem.
44:46
It's the addiction. You know, addiction is the issue
44:48
that we're talking about. It's not.
44:50
And a as got such an interesting history with, you know, trying
44:53
to navigate this and people beginning to, you know, identify
44:58
problems of using sedatives and barbiturates and things like
45:01
that. And it's just been a really
45:04
fascinating kind of issue in the way two different fellowships
45:08
have sought to kind of address that, at least in its, as my
45:12
friend Jason would say, and it's doctrinal kind of approach,
45:17
which is the written literature and.
45:19
So something I noticed immediately was that, you know,
45:24
in a a obviously came first. So it didn't have the have the
45:27
luxury of having another fellowship go before to kind of
45:29
see what maybe to button up. But in in AI think it's in the
45:37
how it works or maybe the preamble, but it says that it it
45:39
explicitly says that alcohol is a drug.
45:42
But a, a kind of like you just mentioned, doesn't have the flip
45:45
side of that. And that's why you, we see
45:48
people in a, a who are like, think that, you know, they, they
45:51
look for loopholes with, you know, weed or some other
45:54
substance that's mood or mind altering, but they're, but it's
45:57
not alcohol. Yeah, that's a a great
46:00
observation. And really kind of like
46:03
historically and contemporary, this philosophy that Narcotics
46:07
Anonymous established of total abstinence, meaning this
46:10
recognition that it's not just the heroin that you're using in
46:15
the 50s that's the issue. But if you start drinking, it
46:17
leads you back, it manifests in this other way.
46:20
And so there was this really strong emphasis that, you know,
46:24
this is a program of total abstinence where that's kind of
46:28
a contemporary challenge for Narcotics Anonymous.
46:30
And in some ways, Narcotics Anonymous is having some of the
46:34
challenges that A A was having in the 50s is how do you
46:37
accommodate people who are coming in on agonist medications
46:41
like methadone and buprenorphine.
46:43
The NA World Service Conference and it's conference agenda
46:46
report is really focused on trying to help the fellowship
46:52
address certain issues. There's real clarity on, hey, we
46:55
understand our third tradition. Our job is to make anybody feel
46:59
welcome who shows up here. But where there is less kind of
47:03
consensus and agreement is, you know, what does it mean for
47:07
somebody to be on an agonist medication, to participate in
47:11
service, chair a meeting, celebrate an anniversary?
47:16
And so there's a lot of, there's a survey that's active until
47:18
April first where the survey and the fellowship.
47:20
How does your group handle this? And I look at a little bit like
47:24
the tensions that Bill W faced in the 50s of do we change our
47:31
core philosophy and approach to be accommodating to all?
47:36
Or do we draw a boundary and say this is, you know, who can be a
47:40
member, we can't be a solution for everyone.
47:44
And Narcotics Anonymous as a fellowship is actively working
47:48
on that in this cycle of the World Service Conference.
47:52
And I think as somebody who's both a person in recovery, also
47:56
a person who's professional in the field, I think the problem
48:01
is when professionals start trying to insist or mandate that
48:08
existing mutual aid groups alter or change based on that external
48:14
kind of influence, as opposed to allowing groups like or
48:18
fellowships like Alcoholics Anonymous to come up with.
48:20
Here's who what we are and who we are.
48:23
Narcotics Anonymous is in that same place of doing that.
48:26
And so there may be, you know, there's a window, there's an
48:29
opportunity, you know, just as a a couldn't be everything for
48:34
addicts and Narcotics Anonymous emerge, there may be an
48:37
opportunity where other mutual aid fellowships like Medication
48:41
Assisted Recovery Anonymous or something else emerges to try to
48:46
meet the needs. My friend Jason Recovery Review
48:49
blog has some really spot on observations about this in terms
48:53
of, you know, like what's the responsibility of the
48:58
professional field for identifying or creating spaces
49:03
of mutual aid versus kind of insisting that existing forms of
49:08
mutual aid adapt to to meet who's coming in.
49:11
That adaptation needs to come from within that fellowship and
49:15
in its own group conscience, its own discussion and so forth.
49:19
And really, the story of Alcoholics Anonymous and the
49:22
story of Narcotics Anonymous is, you know, when all previous
49:26
efforts, medical, psychiatric, correctional, didn't work, you
49:34
know, people mobilized to try to help themselves.
49:38
And that's really the case with Narcotics Anonymous.
49:42
Nobody believed that addicts could recover.
49:44
People mobilized together who had experience and created that
49:48
space where addicts could find hope and find a new life.
49:53
And back to Doctor Tom, like one of the things that Boyd
49:56
discovered is that he received this community recognition.
50:02
He'll talk about that. But it's this story that we know
50:07
more and more today, that wasn't always the case.
50:09
That when people get into recovery, benefits everyone, you
50:13
know, like it benefits the community and the efforts to
50:18
incarcerate to not support recovery.
50:22
They rob the community, Rob's families of the potential that
50:26
exists within that person that's struggling with addiction.
50:28
What was it that Doctor Tom was recognized as?
50:31
Well, he was the Lions Club Man of the Year and which is a
50:37
recognition. It was about three years, if I'm
50:40
not mistaken, after he'd come back to the community, which,
50:43
you know, Chris and I like to point out that, you know, Doctor
50:49
Tom at the time before, you know, going into Lexington and
50:54
stuff like that, being addicted to morphine was pretty much not
50:57
an asset and a liability of the community.
51:01
And then he goes to Lexington. He starts this a a group, and he
51:05
then becomes, you know, a huge asset to his community.
51:09
And Bill W says that he has the most thriving practice of, you
51:15
know, of any physician in Shelby.
51:18
Maybe that's true. We really don't know that.
51:20
But we just know that his community really and truly
51:23
thought very highly of him. Well, I believe it.
51:26
I mean, same. Similar to Doctor Bob, you know,
51:28
And being clean and sober is a superpower.
51:31
Yeah, you know, not just thinking about all, so many of
51:35
the examples you mentioned in the, in the formation and
51:38
history of NA involves doctors. And I can see why.
51:42
And, you know, a, a started by a stockbroker and a surgeon.
51:46
And it's, I was talking to this guy took a guy to his first
51:49
meeting last night. And, you know, we're talking
51:52
about the stigma, you know, and it's, and I, you know, I've
51:55
been, I'm in personal recovery as anybody who listens to this
51:58
knows. And I work in treatment and I'm
52:01
like surrounded by it, people in recovery.
52:05
And no matter what, when I hear the word addict or alcoholic, I
52:09
still like first thought is like that brown bag for the, you
52:13
know, alcoholic bum under the bridge kind of thing.
52:16
And then the attic is like the hey man, I got some stuff, you
52:19
know, like, you know, no matter what, it's still there.
52:22
And here we are talking about Bill and Bob stockbroker and and
52:26
and surgeon and all these doctors.
52:28
So key to the formation of NA, not that it matters in the grand
52:33
scheme of things, but when people are curious and not sure
52:37
and they just still that stigma and like and you, like you said
52:40
at the beginning, I mean, there's a stigma around
52:43
alcoholism, but there's definitely a bigger stigma
52:45
around, you know, addiction to drugs.
52:47
I mean, they've both been largely lifted.
52:50
So much more to go, but I always just want to emphasize that
52:53
point that this is not just what these stereotypes look like.
52:57
It's it's everybody, including doctors.
52:59
So well, we're we're coming up not quite yet.
53:03
We got some we got a little time left, but I kind of wanted to to
53:06
one question. I just want to make sure I ask
53:08
is again back to my conversation when dropping off my parents at
53:11
the airport this morning because they don't know anything.
53:13
They've they've they've been to 1 al Anon meeting ever and they
53:17
just know that, you know from what I talk about.
53:20
But but I was telling them about what we're doing today and they
53:22
just so wait, what, what what is the difference?
53:24
Like if you had to tell somebody and you know, 20 seconds, what
53:29
is the difference between a, A and NA?
53:31
It's. Kind of what I said earlier,
53:33
it's the wording of step one that says in NA we admit we're
53:39
powerless over addiction. And as a A says, we admit we're
53:43
powerless over alcohol. So a A is very specific.
53:46
You know, we deal with the problem of alcohol.
53:49
NA says we deal with the problem of addiction and so it's just a
53:53
it's a broader door of entry or point of entry for people to
53:58
come in because of a just kind of philosophical difference.
54:02
I think that one of the differences that people would
54:04
say in the past is that there's more stable recovery and long
54:09
term recovery in in Alcoholics Anonymous.
54:13
And I think it's really hard to argue about that today with
54:15
Narcotics Anonymous. Narcotics Anonymous has member
54:19
multiple members with decades of of recovery has evolving
54:25
literature such as Living clean that emerged in response to the
54:30
fact that addicts in recovery are living full lives and now
54:34
addressing issues with how do you deal with loss how do you
54:37
deal with that How do you deal with aging.
54:40
So Narcotics Anonymous is, is really become a thriving and
54:44
mature fellowship that I think the, the belief, you know, I
54:49
have a really dear friend who says in 82 and she was
54:53
introduced to recovery. If you want to go have fun, go
54:55
to NA. If you want to change your life,
54:56
go to AA. And I think that type of mindset
55:00
has has changed because NA to borrow a phrase from a a has
55:06
come of age, you know, it's become its own fellowship with,
55:11
you know, 72,000 meetings worldwide.
55:16
Just tremendous transmission of the narcotics knowledge program
55:21
largely from the publication of the basic text that came out in
55:27
1983 and really kind of started a trajectory of of meeting
55:32
growth and fellowship development that had been pretty
55:35
slow for the 1st 30 years. So other than what you just said
55:41
and then back to what you said at the beginning to just that,
55:44
that change and that that was one thing I did was able to say
55:47
in the car. Is it you know, kind of the 12
55:49
steps or the 12 steps with basically a word change in the
55:52
first step and probably the first part of the 12th step,
55:55
correct. Other than that though, do you,
55:59
I mean is it pretty much the same deal with like a, you know
56:03
with intergroup and general service and meeting just
56:07
sponsorship like all that is basically?
56:09
You've got all those things. You've got service structures,
56:12
you've got all the same things of, you know, working steps,
56:19
having a Home group, being of service, being involved with
56:21
sponsorship. But it's not correct to say that
56:26
NA is simply just kind of a clone of a A.
56:28
Like it's got its own culture. You know, it's got a different,
56:33
you know, focus this total abstinence focus, you know,
56:39
Narcotics Anonymous. Was there something I was going
56:45
to say? I want to say that part, I don't
56:47
say. What's up?
56:49
Yeah, I can. Finish your.
56:50
I know what's up with that. Yeah, welcome to older age.
56:54
Like, back to the point earlier, I mean, I love the fact that it
56:58
did have the hindsight to be able to close that loophole and
57:02
be total abstinence because, you know, addicts and Alcoholics
57:07
like to justify and rationalize. And it is black and white and I
57:11
love that about it. Yeah, I was.
57:12
What I was going to say is that like when you look at membership
57:14
surveys, which are samples of the fellowship and they tend to
57:17
be completed by people who are more invested and engaged, one
57:23
of the differences between NA and other 12 step fellowships is
57:27
there's just greater racial diversity.
57:30
So there's higher representation of persons of color.
57:33
I think one of the things that's really fascinating to us, which
57:36
is an entirely different story, is how adaptable the program has
57:40
been in cultures that you think it wouldn't take root in.
57:44
So 1/3 of all weekly Narcotics Anonymous meetings in the world
57:49
occur in Iran. I think you've told me that
57:53
that's insane. It is 0.
57:54
It is. It's a That's a that is such a.
57:59
I don't know what to call it an anomaly, but.
58:01
Well, it's just, it's, it's, it's just it speaks to the adept
58:05
how adaptable the program and the fellowship.
58:08
And the message is, I want to shout out, I think I could say
58:12
that dress like this. Now I'm going to shout out a few
58:16
resources out there. So I think you can still find it
58:20
Google at my recovery cast. This is like a 20/16/2017
58:26
podcast done by Ron and Dave. Fantastic interviews but really
58:33
interesting interviews about Iran, More modern podcasts,
58:38
Living clean podcast. Lot of great historical
58:43
information but just stories of of recovery.
58:47
They just had an episode that was so cool where a guy who got
58:53
clean in NA in the maybe 8687 is flying back to Missouri to take
58:59
care of his brother who's has, you know, such serious medical
59:05
conditions that he's kind of in institutional care.
59:08
Very difficult trip for him. He said that he travels with a
59:13
white NA key tag on his luggage to help him distinguish it and
59:18
from the other luggage. He is landing back in LA and he
59:22
sees his bag come around and there's his white key tag, but
59:26
now there's a black key tag attached to it.
59:29
That's awesome. And it turns out that, you know,
59:33
the, the there's an NA member at the airport in Missouri who's
59:39
having a bad day and he's a baggage handler and he sees it
59:43
come through and he says there's a newcomer.
59:46
And he tells his boss, pull that off and he runs and he grabs his
59:50
key chain and he takes off his black key tag and puts it on
59:52
there. And the cool thing about this
59:54
podcast episode is these two guys end up connecting.
59:57
And so they're getting to interview these guys.
59:59
So, so you know, as, as we all know, anyone listening to this,
1:00:04
you know, the, the miracles of recovery and the connections,
1:00:08
the so just endless fascinating stories of resilience of and
1:00:14
with this story in particular about the key tags they're
1:00:16
talking about. We are two completely different
1:00:19
people. The guy from LA is a is a gay
1:00:22
man. The guy from Missouri is
1:00:24
describes himself as having, you know, Nazi lightning bolt
1:00:27
tattoos from, you know, pre recovery and, you know, his
1:00:32
decision to say this part of my story and who I am.
1:00:35
But these two guys that have found this kind of universal
1:00:40
connection that transcends all these individual differences is
1:00:43
just always, I mean, you could spend your lifetime just hearing
1:00:47
those stories and studying those stories and and so forth.
1:00:51
I love it. Well, this is a great place to
1:00:55
wrap it up. I just wanted to say thank you
1:00:57
for coming back on the podcast. Chris Budnick and Boyd Pickard,
1:01:01
thank you for being here for your first time.
1:01:03
And thank you all so much for sharing this.
1:01:05
And I know I learned a lot today.
1:01:07
I hope everybody listening does too and watching.
1:01:09
So thank you so much. We'll see you out there in the
1:01:13
wild. You're welcome.
1:01:16
All right, have a great day. Thank you, Boyd.
1:01:18
Thank you, Chris. If you liked what you heard
1:01:20
today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
1:01:26
visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
1:01:29
Thank you.