Latest / Faith Rehab / Ep. 11 – Elizabeth Priller: Ex-Jehovah's Witness, Still Chasing the Light

Transcript

Ep. 11 – Elizabeth Priller: Ex-Jehovah's Witness, Still Chasing the Light · Faith Rehab

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, quick heads up before we dive in.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's a stretch in this episode where the audio quality dips a bit due to some technical issues on our end.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: We cleaned up as much as we could, but you'll notice it for a few minutes.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let it throw you off.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: What our guest Elizabeth shares in this episode is too good to miss.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: So stick with us through it.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's get into it.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Faith Rehab.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Today we have an awesome interview with someone who was a former Jehovah's Witness and has dedicated their life to science.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna learn about a time she thought she was getting arrested when she was 15 years old.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna hear about her 23andme, that she has all of them.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 0:59
  unknown: Okay, all right, right.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, welcome to Faith Rehab.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Real talk about church hurt healing and where we headed.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: My name's Steve, and I had a birthday this week.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And guess how old I am?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Six seven.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Happy birthday.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, I made it.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Six seven.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've all been waiting for this.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you get a whole year of this now.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have had like the best content on your social media lately with like all the six seven videos that have brought me so much joy.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so glad.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I am currently wearing a six seven bucket hat that CJ sent me for my birthday.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little small, a little small, but you know what?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: It'll help me when I do my breakdancing later.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right, who's next?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, my name is CJ.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually triglyceride too high right now.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh got my blood work done.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it was also my birthday right before Steve's.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not 6'7.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what did I send you for your birthday?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Heidi.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: She sent me way too many candy cigarettes.
• 2:03
  unknown: A box.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Enough for a lifetime.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have so many.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that, Heidi.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're still waiting for a picture of all your kids with candy cigarettes.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: We need that picture.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working on it.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: That should be your Christmas card.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: But thanks, thanks, Heidi.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great gift.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: They were so cheap, it makes me worried that I sent you like something really unhealthy.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's like 7,000 of them.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: I can see Steve's book on your table behind you.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, check that out.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: I ordered that a few weeks ago, and I'm taking my time with it because that's what the author says to do.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm looking at it, Steve.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I read this while I go number two.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, just letting you know.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's love right there.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'd have it finished if I ever exactly.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is maybe fun fact, but I wrote it with that in mind.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted all the chapters to be short enough to write to read on the crapper.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm Heidi, T I T-I.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And uh my fun fact is when we were little kids, we would not go trick-or-treating, we would go to harvest parties because that's what good Christians do.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And my sister went as Amy Grant, oh, the the singer, and I went as Sandy Patty.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you know who Sandy Patty is.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Give it a goog.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: 80s.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have like a big wig?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: She's a redhead, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: She had blonde hair.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh who was the redhead?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: There was a redhead, though.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: She had blonde hair.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm thinking of the girl Lamb Chop.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Jerry Lewis.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: You could have went with a little uh with a little cheap stock.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um no, but I ended up getting grounded from going to the harvest party because my mom did buy me a blonde wig, and when she was at work, I cut bangs.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: The wig needed bangs, and I cut bangs, and my mom grounded me, so I didn't get it.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you've been making up for it with candy cigarettes ever since.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Ever since.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: In today's interview, she does such a great job, and she mentions 23andMe, which I've never done, but have you guys ever done that 23andMe?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me too.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And mine's a big failure.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us I've me and my wife got the ancestry uh DNA test for Christmas.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is like two years ago.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I did it one time and it came back unable to identify identity.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh you don't have DNA.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: They sent me another one.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I did it again.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Same result, two times, and I made sure the second one I had a lot of spit in that vial.
• 4:41
  unknown: Oh my gosh.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So they sent me another one.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't do it.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of quit.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be disappointed again.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm an alien.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Heidi, I'm I'm worried now.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: CJ might have invaded the earth.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: That is really wild.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so my 23andme story, I did it with my best friend right before the pandemic.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And my dad was kind of like getting into ancestry stuff at the same time.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: And he learned that there was this relative out there, and I'm sure this is happening to so many people.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was so confused by the percentage, like the match that he had with this individual that he called 23andMe like you can call.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, I'm just wondering if you can explain to me this percentage.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is he a cousin?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And whoever he was talking to on the phone was like, sir, he would be a half brother.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was like, What?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so we kind of became these detectives of our family history when all the people who would have known the story have passed on.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: And my dad learned that he had a half-brother, and in his like final years, he's since passed away.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: He not my dad, the half brother.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: We got to know um, we got to know him.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: And when we met him, it was wild.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: He looked so much like my grandpa, who died in like 2000, I think, that it was like sitting across the table from my grandpa.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I could his his voice, his his expressions, his um hand movements, all of it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then just like probably two or three months ago, my dad got another email.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Guess what?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: We've got another relative that we didn't know about.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Wait a second, you gotta spill the tea.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Did one of them have an affair?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like your grandparents had an affair.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: My grandpa got my grandma pregnant, and so they got married, and then he went away to the war.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and in that time, my grandma was pregnant again with her second at the same time that this woman was pregnant with my grandpa's son.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: What's really sad about it is that his mom thought that my grandpa was gonna come and be with her.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: So she was raising him as a single mom until he was about three or four.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then she put him up for adoption because my grandpa never came back.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: Came back.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And seeing photos of my grandpa with his mom, like so in love at the same time that there's pictures of my grandpa with my grandma, like it was just a wild journey.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Fun fact for all of our listeners, Heidi Brandt is part of the Brandt family, and I know the rest of that story, but the Brandt family welcomed him as a brother.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was so heartwarming.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: They had him, they played poker together, they had him this whole reunion, they had it was like this big old welcoming home kind of celebrations and relationship, and it was very, very heartwarming.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Except for grandpa who cheated, but anyway, yeah.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Way to go, Grandpa.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Those are great stories, and stay tuned because we have a lot of great stories ahead with an amazing interview.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to be interviewing my sweet friend and soul sister, Elizabeth Priller, today.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yay.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: I met Elizabeth, oh my gosh, how many years ago was that?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say it was pre-pandemic.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it was pre-pandemic.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: I spoke at this like pharmaceutical company uh in-service thing, and Elizabeth came up to me afterwards and she was like, I want to do this.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, people say that a lot when you're done speaking.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea the capability that Elizabeth has to really connect with an audience.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm gonna let her share kind of her professional background, but she has any letter you could possibly have after your last name is a title.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth is in her last reincarnation on planet Earth.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: She has done everything you can imagine.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: One time we met for lunch and she backed into a parking spot like a boss.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, When I was an EMT, I used to have to do this with the ambulance.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, of course you drove ambulance.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So why don't you share a little bit about your professional background?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much, Heidi, for having me.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I do remember that day sitting in the audience thinking, why am I not, why am I in the audience and not standing up there with her?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and little do I did we know that a few years later we gave our first like co-keynote, if you will, co-training, and it was the best time of our lives.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: That's cool.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so at any rate, yeah, so uh Elizabeth Priller, and um, as my grandson would say, my government name is Elizabeth Chambers Priller.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was on this kick of asking our government name.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good because the CIA is listening, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to like make sure our identity is don't impersonate somebody else, please.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I do, I was born in Chicago, and as I started to grow up, I wanted to be a neurosurgeon and I wanted to be in in the Air Force.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so I wanted to, you know, like fighter planes by day, neurosurgery by night.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And really what it amounted to is I have a keen attention to detail, and I notice everything.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really fun for my husband when it comes to cleaning the house.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm so nervous about my background.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like don't don't I will not look.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Don't look.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: But at any rate, um, I my senior year of high school had a change in trajectory, if you will, and got pregnant and so decided at a very quick time frame, um, what do I need to do with my life?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: And nursing school was the next best option since there was a community college near my high school.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I've been a nurse for 26 years, which is hard to believe.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I have worked the span and worked the gamut of nursing.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's the beauty of nursing, is you can do almost anything.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if you don't like blood and guts, you don't have to be on that side of patient care, you can be in administration.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I've probably spent 50% in patient care, direct patient care, and 50% in in in uh administration or leadership and education.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can can I um just stop you there?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as people that have listened to this show know I have a son that's been sick a couple of times.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of time we've spent with nurses has been more than one should in a lifetime.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: But we just have this deep love and respect for nurses because first of all, they do all the medical care.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care what doctors listen to.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: No, they don't.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: But also just thank you for the care and compassion that you're showing families on a day-to-day basis.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Both uh in administration, I know you're demanding that of the folks that work for you, but also just your bedside.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I have fond memories of some of the patients I've taken care of, um, both at the beginning of life and at the end of life, and I definitely consider it an honor.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so because most people come on here like you and describe themselves like you with way too much humility.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um Heidi sent us your resume, and I apologize if I'm a mini stalker, but um what you you've done a lot of stuff, cool stuff.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so let me just kind of throw that out to the world.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I am a nerd for mascots.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you went to all of at Nazarene University, and the mascots is.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you even know?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: I do maybe a bulldog?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Tigers, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Tigers, yes, of course.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, tigers.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Heidi just learned a few years ago a tiger is not a female lion, it is its own species.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a Christian school, I didn't learn accurate the science.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay, we're gonna talk about what I didn't learn either.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, and I you graduated summa cum laude, which is the absolute highest.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Heidi, that is not another female species.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is something I don't know anything about, but it's the highest you can do.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you are an author, you've finished top five in Teacher of the Year voting.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: You've been an adjunct instructor for the Highland Community College, which is mascot, please, drum roll.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Cougars.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know that one because it's a mile from my house.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Heidi, that one might be a female thing, but we'll talk about that on another episode.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: You have been the director of diversity, inclusion, and belonging.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: You've given talks on resilience.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping that at some point today you'll talk a little bit about resilience for those of us that have had some church hurt.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: You've been a keynote speaker all over the world.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And listen to these things that she's done just for fun.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: She has been a CASA worker, but if you've in social services at all, you know what that is.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a court-appointed special advocate for kids that have to go to court for family issues.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the heart of CASA workers is so genuine and pure, and I love that.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing that.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she's worked with the Boys and Girls Club, she's been a part of the Black Girl Magic Educational Services.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: She has done diversity round table, she's driven an ambulance, she's been, wait for it, a cop.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what haven't you done?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_05: I know, right?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_05: That's why I said she's done it all.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I literally want to go back to bed and just give up on life because you have done so many amazing things.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Every time we have guests, I'm like, what am I doing with my life?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I and she like one time, Elizabeth.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: We live what, like two hours away from each other, an hour and a half.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we try to get intentional about meeting up halfway and doing something like going for a hike, going to a spa.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, I signed us up for pottery class.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, okay.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: She makes actual things in pottery class.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we're we're taking the class, we're all done with it.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: She's got like three beautiful cereal bowls.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, you know, what do you want to name these?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, This is a cereal bowl.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna be for my knitting stuff.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he comes to me, which it looks nothing like anything than like a toddler could have done.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, What do you want to name yours?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that's midlife crisis number one.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was just like a melted glob of so she when she says she has an eye for detail, she's an artist.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she's a creative, but she's so thorough in what she does.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a a level of excellence that she brings to whatever is in front of her, whoever is in front of her.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: She asks the best questions.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just so, so excited to be sharing you with the world because you're one of my favorite people.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Heidi.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now I feel like my cheeks hurt.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: I am humble.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being here today.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we're looking forward to hearing your story.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we um, I'm just on the edge of my seat, and now I'm really bummed that I didn't bring Garrett's popcorn to just enjoy while you share.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just while you share.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because I think what you're gonna learn about Elizabeth is she has this rich history of like a lot of challenges, I feel like in in your earlier years that you just use to propel you forward, which is why I'm excited to hear some ideas you have around resilience.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: But this is a podcast about church hurt, and you have a unique background because you grew up Jehovah's Witness.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I want you to share just a little bit about um your growing up experience and what it was like to be a part of uh a faith that I think we know of is like the people who come to our door, but what was it like being on the inside of that faith structure?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: It really is one of those things when you're born into something, you don't realize that there's something different out there.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think one of my earliest memories that I can remember um being in the Jehovah's Witness faith is we were at the Kingdom Hall and my father and mother were there, and I was probably about four years old.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember my dad would say, and this must have been his way of keeping me focused, he would say, Every time you hear the word Jesus, I need you to make a slash mark, and we're gonna count how many times you heard the word Jesus, and I'm gonna quiz you at the end.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh, challenge accepted.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: I got this, you know.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm I'm marking off every time I hear the word Jesus.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, also in my brain, I was just learning how to write my name.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would just like start to daydream and start to write my name, and then I might have to hurry up and make hash marks every time I heard the word Jesus.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: So then I can remember writing my full name, and I think I screamed something out like, Dad, I got it.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's one of my earliest memories of the Kingdom Hall.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, certainly there are a lot more memories, um, but that was my earliest memory.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you feel like you always kind of had a God sense inside of you from the time you were small, or was that something that was taught to you through the church?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: No, I absolutely think that was there.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: I can remember.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I again, my earliest memory ever was about two years old.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I can remember being at my grandparents' house and they had a den with a library, and there's actually a photo.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: I maybe I'll share it, and folks can see this photo of me.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm in the den and I'm in the library, and I just remember hiding behind the couch, looking at the books, and just always thinking.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: I've always been a thinker, I've always been a questioner, um, and knowing just like, what is this world about?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I can remember even looking at my family, thinking, why am I with these people?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't know if I fit uh this crowd.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's my extended family as well, and I love them all dearly, but I always remember thinking broader, and I now can just look at that as like that God um um essence in me where I'm always looking at people as more than just the human flesh that they are.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, I feel like that's always been in me.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, what a great, great way to look at people.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, Elizabeth, for those of us that are listening, don't know anything about the Jehovah's Witness group or their denomination.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just give us like a two-minute little uh intro to what are Jehovah's Witnesses?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And give us what you know.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: So from my memory, my recollection um as a young child in that particular faith, um, what I remember is that there were different congregations.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so a congregation would be looked at as maybe a different church, um, a loc in a different location.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and each congregation has, you know, different levels of elders in the congregation, uh, which are kind of like this, these the senior leaders in each congregation.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then different elders give different what is called talks every week.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so it's basically if you were to compare that to a non-Jehovah's Witnesses um faith, it would be like the sermon every week.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it would be a different topic.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: They would have different publications.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: If I remember the watchtower is the main publication, and it would be based on scripture, and there would be a different topic that was relevant to today's time.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so each congregation, um, I can remember the one that we belonged to, and it was a very like warm and inviting place.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: I can remember a lot of the women, especially being, you know, very supportive of our family.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I didn't necessarily feel that always about the men.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: It was, I was generally the women.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: My mom was friends with them, those types of things, and they were very approachable.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas the men, I it was like this, you know, crystal tower, and you don't talk to them, and and and it kind of felt like that even as a child.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And what kinds of things do they believe?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know that they come to our door on Thanksgiving, and I know that they have some other kinds of beliefs, and maybe we don't need to get into that.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell me.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I know that they have a formative part of your life, but as as people are curious, I'm just curious what you might say about that.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, again, from what I remember, is they do believe in God as as in Jehovah is the name of God.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they believe in Jesus.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there is no belief from my recollection of the Trinity in terms of the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's also interpretations of scripture that are different from some other faiths, um, and some of them very literal.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they also have a very clear separation of those that are within the truth, is what it's called, and those that are outside of the truth, meaning inside being a Jehovah's Witness and being worldly or outside of that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a very, very clear separation.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I can remember as a child being very wrestling with that because I'm like, aren't we supposed to love people?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Aren't we supposed to be kind?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: But yet there is this very clear separation of we don't associate with people of the world unless we're trying to witness to them, which is their way of saying we're trying to bring back um our beliefs to them.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Talk a little bit about your faith journey.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, my faith journey has been wide and broad.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um And I would say deep, and I'm I'm I think I'm still on that journey.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: So we stayed as Jehovah's Witnesses while we were in Chicago after my parents divorced.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: When I was 10, we came out to where I live now and we continued.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: My mother continued to attend the Jehovah's Witness congregation in our area.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we probably stayed there until I was about 16.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Then there was a, I will say, like a maybe a natural falling away.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even sure why.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: My mom, I think she got remarried, and maybe that was part of it, and he was not a Jehovah's Witness.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was probably a conversation that was had of saying, you either choose us or choose him.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: That was not necessarily shared with me.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so just by default, I stopped attending because my mother wasn't attending anymore.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: I can remember though, as I approached that 18 to 21 age, I remember having a desire to have a sense of faith and community and connection, but I had no idea.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: I had never known anything else besides the Jehovah's Witness faith.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I felt like if I were to explore anything else, I would be condemned, even just maybe by God Himself.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just didn't.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I just tried to like, you know, have my own faith.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure I had a Bible at that time and just was exploring it on my own.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: It was probably not until I was 27 when I finally stepped foot in a church that was non-Jehovah's Witness.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I can remember feeling like everything I was taught about quote unquote church, terrified.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, there's going to be like hellfire and damnation.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go to hell immediately for stepping foot in this church.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm worshiping the devil in some way.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was pretty severe, deep beliefs that I had to wrestle with, but I was deeply seeking that spiritual connection and trying to explore what does that mean for me now?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, among that fear for you to have the courage to walk forward and go into that church and experience that, that's that's kind of gutsy.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: It was deep.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: It was really deep.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I would say I'll go back to when I was five years old.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: I remember this specifically, and I think that's what really like led to that wrestling, I guess you could say.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: When I was five years old, um, and I cannot believe at five years old they had us going door to door, knocking on people's doors, as many people are familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was not alone.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was with my mom and and probably a friend of hers.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And they kind of told me, you know, like what to say, knock on the door, what to say.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the publication.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: I knock on the door, a woman answers the door, and I kind of give my little spiel and she says, Thank you so much.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I already believe in God and I go to church.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I can remember thinking, so what's wrong with that?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I have to continue to tell someone that they're wrong if they're already doing maybe what we're wired to do in some way?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and she's happy with that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I can remember, I think I said, okay, have a nice day.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I turned around because my my mom was not close by.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, she wasn't interested.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I walked away.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but then fast forward as an adult, when I chose to go to church, I remember that conversation and thinking, what's so wrong with that?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, what a great moment.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I know from the experiential on the other side, CJ and I live in California, and in Chicago, it's a little bit more formal.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: California is casual, 24-7.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So if I ever see anybody in my neighborhood walking around full dresses and suits, I know the Jehovah's Witnesses are here because no one else wears that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe if I worked in a bank or something like that, but um, they must have told you to dress up.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: That must be an important part, which is great.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're very presentable.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, and as a that was absolutely it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: So as a young child, I've always been in dresses and skirts my whole entire life.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: I would say it's actually something I still practice um a lot, probably because of that early influence.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: And my mother made our clothes, my grandmother made our clothes, that kind of thing.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it translated into school.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: I would wear dresses and skirts to school and get made fun of all of the time because kids were not wearing that uh in the early 80s.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: They were wearing, you know, jeans and shorts and t-shirts.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it definitely set me apart even at school, even just in the clothing I would wear.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you would have been the only nurse in the hospital in a dress.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: And my mom was the only nurse in the hospital wearing a dress on.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she had one of those big white hats too.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, she did.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, she did.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, you when we have conversation, you talk a lot when you look back, thinking about being the only in a lot of rooms.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Can you share a little bit about that?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, early in my life, um, zero to ten will say that was my formative years in Chicago.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: I went to a gifted school that was an international school.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: So we had people from all over the world and I loved it.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: It was just one of my best friends was from Holland.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: She wore wooden shoes to school.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we had people from that spoke different languages.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I never felt the only time I felt like the only or an outsider was related to my faith.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because they was, I would have to sit out in the hallway when we talked about evolution.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, when we talked about holidays, I would have to sit out in the hallway.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember feeling so isolated but so confused.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what's the big deal?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't understand why this is such a big deal.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Birthdays, all of that stuff.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Then when I moved out to Northwest Illinois, and it was a uh very it's a very rural area, and I would say predominantly white, but it was actually all white.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: I was the only person that was not white in my school, in the entire school, um, besides my brother.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: So then I would became the only in terms of not only my my faith, but then also my skin color, my culture, where I grew up, all of those things.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was incredibly isolating.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, didn't feel like I could really connect with anyone.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so I became, I was already quite introverted, but I became even more introverted because I'm like, I'm not talking to anybody about any of this because it's so obvious that I'm different.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um then it really translated into, if you want to say, an identity crisis.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know what box to check.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was still sitting out in the hallway for birthday parties, for discussions in science class.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I would just remember sitting there thinking, what is the big deal about this?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Why does this have to be such a big deal?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: And how it impacted me growing up.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that isolation that I think kind of led up to some rougher youth years.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can you share a little bit about that if you feel comfortable?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Story I I remember being on a walk with you and just learning more about you and thinking the the depth of character that you have, how poised you are, how smart you are, I think comes from a lot of challenges that you've had to overcome.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: So share a little bit about high school, middle school, high school.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, it was definitely very challenging.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: And when my parents got divorced, I didn't know they were divorcing.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um we had come out to visit my grandparents one winter break in fourth grade, and I never saw my friends or my family or my father again.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: That was really the end.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how I found out my parents were divorcing.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so I started at this new school, um, never felt like I fit in, was teased all of the time for numerous things.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so in high school, I remember, you know, you had made mention of all like, gosh, is there anything you haven't done?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like I had big dreams.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: I was raised and in and went to an excellent school in Chicago that really encouraged you to do big things.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then I came to this small rural town that I was already like, I had done what they were doing two years ago.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I was incredibly bored.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: So as someone with a very short attention span who gets bored tends to do things that maybe they shouldn't be doing.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was probably it would probably be a shock to know that I was uh a little bit of a rebellious kid in high school, quite mouthy, said things that were on my mind.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: All of a sudden, this introvert became very extroverted and probably was not respectful in some spaces.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I also had a lot of frustration and anger because you know I was very confusing time where no one was really telling me what was going on.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't feel like I had anyone to connect with or relate to adult-wise or um peers.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was navigating that on my own.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then my stepdad at the time, we didn't know this at the time, but he was uh a drug addict and the type that would like steal from money, like not just like, you know, we're smoking pot.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: We are actually um on heroin or cocaine, etc.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um I remember one time in particular, I only had my driver's permit.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: And he said to me, Hey, your mom said, you know, because my mom worked nights, so she was sleeping during the day.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, Your mom said it'd be okay for you to take me over to so-and-so's house.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta go grab something.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, okay, whatever.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you're the adult, sounds good.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: I also did not know he doesn't have a driver's license.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I was not necessarily driving legally, but I didn't know that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so at any rate, we we drive to this person's house.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, just wait here.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be just a minute.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta go pick something up.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm sitting in the car.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: This is before cell phones, so I'm truly just sitting there listening to the radio.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: And all of a sudden, the car is surrounded by about 10 cops, and they grab me out of the driver's seat, throw me on the ground, and I'm like, I mean, you can just imagine the shock as a 15-year-old.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it turns out my stepdad was going into that house to beat up an old man and rob him for money.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Someone called the police, and I was the driver.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, had no idea what was going on.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: Once I pleaded with them and told them he's my stepdad, I'm 15, I have no idea what's going on.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: They let me go and and you know, they nothing happened further than that besides traumatic experience.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but they arrested him and I had to drive home.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so just imagine like help, like get me out of here.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, like there were things like that that were happening that no one at school ever knew.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I just would come to school and you know, they would just see the kid that was, you know, um mouthy or maybe picking fights with people or the her grades were slipping.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Why all of a sudden she's getting C's and D's when I really left school.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: So those were some of the things that were going on.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, I'm sort of fascinated by this moment, if I may ask.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are are brilliant and you kind of knew it.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then you came to this school where it's almost all white except for you.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you had to sit outside during some of the science classes.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And at a time when a lot of women give up on science and math, you went uh full on.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you went, you doubled down, like you have these amazing science and nursing credentials and research and published articles.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And how how how did that happen at a time when a lot of girls are just kind of giving up on math and science, and you just went, This is my way, this is the thing.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you for recognizing that.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like the moment that I knew science was for me, I mean, I always had an inquisitive mind, I was always thinking about things, my environment, etc.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I can remember in seventh grade, I had this amazing science teacher, and he was probably 80 when I had him.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: And he was incredible.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Shout out to him if he's still around.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: He's not, he's since passed, but like I think he was 80 when he passed, so I'm not sure how this worked, but he was incredible, and I was probably one of the few students that took his lectures seriously.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: What I loved about him is he would connect science to real life, and he would really just help us.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he would go off on these tangents and everyone loved it because then they weren't focused on science, but I was so engaged with what he was talking about.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: And he had us go deep into some of these science projects, and I was like, ooh, this.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, whether it was meteorology, geology, anatomy, and physiology, I really didn't care.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: I just loved science.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: All the ologies.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: All the ologies.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: I loved them.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I actually wanted to be an archaeologist on the side too.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: So like I still play with rocks.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so at any rate, that was where my love for science really started.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it really wasn't as much as like having my mom as a nurse as the influence.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was more my education and really just being encouraged in those spaces.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I continued that through high school.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: Again, surgery was where I really thought I wanted to be.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: I want to I don't want to say I settled for nursing, but I did what I what I could do with the um experiences that I was having.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask one more thing?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I think a lot of us, like I'm an old white guy, right?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh there's a lot of privilege and a lot of things that I don't I'm I'm learning.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: But for you, you've had to live this experience.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I maybe you're familiar with the term called code switching.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And not sometimes a lot of folks don't know what that is.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: But can you talk a little bit about what that meant in your life?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh what I'm hearing is I'm the only kid of color, so I have to fit in.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the only Jehovah's Witness, so I have to try to fit in.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the only, you know, one with a stepdad who's a drug addict and making me drive him to drug deals, you know.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit about what is that like and and how has that sort of formed whatever it formed in you?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: One word to describe how that feels is exhausting.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: It is absolutely exhausting to have to be a chameleon in every single space and have to like pre-identify who do I have to be in the space that I'm gonna enter?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Can I actually be myself?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or do I have to hide or mask certain parts of myself?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I would add to that, I'm also neurodivergent.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: So there's an extra layer of masking that occurs.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: So not only is it the identities that people can see, it's the identities that people can't see.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I realized as a child that I was masking in any of those identities.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: I was just adapting, but it was exhausting to have to constantly adapt to the situation.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, now what it has positively done is I can walk into any situation, whether it is a person that is unhoused on the streets to the CEO of a hospital, and I can have a conversation with both people.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: So that is the gift that it's been given me, um, that's given me is that I'm able to adapt to any situation and can connect with absolutely any person.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then how do you, as a person who is playing hopscotch around identities, how do you find your own?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: That has been a journey.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that I did um again, through this whole, you know, whether it's it's my my religious background and faith to my racial identity to cultural identity, all of these different pieces, is I decided to do a 23andMe um test because I'm like, I know what my family is telling me that they think we are, but I'm like, I need to really find out what am I?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because people will say, What are you?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I just would always answer, a human and a woman.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I was like, what, like, what am I?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's no way we have time to go through all of the percentages of what I actually am, but some of the shocking ones were um Ashkenazi Jewish, I am Spanish and Portuguese, which is not too much of a surprise.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: My my mother's side is from Mexico, um, Nigerian, Congolese, Filipino, um, Bengali Indian.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's literally everything but Russian and Australian.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: You made CJ happy there for a second.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Your cousins.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: We never know.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: We'll have to do a DNA test.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Never know.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: You probably speak more Tagalog than he does.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't speak any.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like I at one time knew seven languages thanks to my early education, but I do not know them anymore.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but again, I I go back to my childhood, and I'm like, it's no surprise to me that I felt at home in an international school because I literally was everything and I didn't even know it yet.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: So my identity as an adult, you know, oftentimes you go to the doctor, you're filling out a bank loan form, all of these different categories of race and ethnicity, and they always make you choose one.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, but I am not one, and I'm not even an equal percentage of one or a greater percentage of one that I could choose one.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm actually probably, if we want to get technical, 59% European.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, but if every time someone looks at me, they're like, oh, well, you're black or you're Hispanic.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and um, so that makes it really challenging.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I often, when I am in spaces, will challenge folks and say, you know, you really should expand your uh requirements here because I am not one and not everyone is.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a fun fact.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: About probably 15 years ago, there was a big push in Congress to make all the federal forms have a box that said biracial.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it got voted down.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, does that surprise anybody?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, isn't that that's sad?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, when considering like the especially in the United States, there is there are so many people that are multiracial now.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there are, you know, so maybe someday we'll adapt.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: How was being a young single mom for you, like at that point, had you stepped out of the church completely?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's a tough person to be sometimes in the church, but maybe that's an assumption.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: So definitely had left the Jehovah's Witness congregation by that point.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I did not have the, if you want to say, stigma of being um in the Jehovah's Witness faith and being a teen mom.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I did not have that to wrestle with.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, however, I did wrestle with that in my community and in my school because I was a senior in high school.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I got told everything from, you know, you're going to amount to nothing to um, you know, you're a statistic and you should probably, you know, there were other options they told me I should consider instead of becoming a mother.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I knew that I just needed to take the harder road.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, they're all going to be hard.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: I might as well take the hard road that seems right for me.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, as far as how that has shaped my identity again, I think it's still, I carry that with me.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when, you know, you had mentioned Steve earlier, like, oh my goodness, is there anything you haven't done?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think there was this internal fire in me that had to prove that no matter my situation, or, you know, obviously being a teen mom, that I was still capable of doing great things.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: And those great things were not for me.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: They were not to necessarily put them on my resume, but they were to show the contribution, the care, the empathy that I give to others, but also to encourage people, especially younger people, that it is possible to do things even in spite of difficult situations.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, it's summertime when we're recording this.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my favorite things to do in a pool is to take something floatable, hold it underneath the water, and then watch it shoot out.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm getting the same, the same sort of image of you that as people have tried to hold you down, when they let go, you sort of shoot out of the water and excel.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I just um I love that because there are so many times in our life when things happen and we have a choice.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we can be bitter or we can be better.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And boy, just looking at your resume, it's been better in all caps.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so thankful and so proud that you've worked so hard.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I do want to hear more of your story, but I just had to break because I'm sort of feeling this sense of quit trying to hold people down.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're either gonna be better better or bitter, and and holding people down just creates problems.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my lecture for all of you listeners.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for that visual because I absolutely used to do that as a kid.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: I used to hold those pool noodles down as low as I could, stand on them, and then let them go.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then they go shooting out, isn't that fun?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is, and your capacity to hold, I don't know if paradox is the right word, but in the church or in some church communities where science is kind of like um poo-pooed.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how I would say that more intelligently than that.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is perfect.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: For you to for you to have like a deep understanding and knowledge of science and this deep and understanding of who God is.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you said that that kind of work of God awareness was with you from when you were small.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: So and you were in your 20s when you started going to a different kind of church.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um so how do you describe your faith now and kind of how did that develop in your 20s and 30s and early 40s?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, thank you.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, people can do the math, it's all good.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm proud of that.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm proud of it at this point.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: So um, so definitely.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I started exploring um church outside of the Jehovah's Witness faith in my late 20s, um, did land in a church home and was part of that church home for over 15 years.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was interesting because that was more, I guess you could say, on the non-denominational slash evangelical Christian church is how we can probably phrase this one.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I just got all in.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was all in and it just spoke to my heart.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: It, uh, whether it was the worship, it was the um the youth for the um youth programs for my kids, or if it was um just the messaging that I received every week, it just feel like it spoke to me.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: I was deeply involved in a lot of their community events, um, you know, volunteer work, all of the things.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: Then there was a turning point, um, and it was around the pandemic when the pandemic we had not gone into lockdown yet, but there was news of COVID starting to spread.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: And as a nurse, as someone who's deeply uh has a strong understanding of science, I understood how important this was.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, as someone who's immunocompromised also, I had to take this very, very seriously.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I was actually part of the welcome committee at our church, and so I was one of the door greeters.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: And one Sunday, I brought bottles of hand sanitizer, and instead of shaking everyone's hand, I offered sanitizer.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_05: Genius.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And about 90% of people looked at me and said, What do I need that garbage for?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, ooh, ouch.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I just kind of took note and I smiled and I was like, oh, I just want to make sure everyone stays healthy and, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it was after that that I watched.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: I started, you know, again, because I'm an observer, I started watching how is the church, both from the leadership level and in the congregation, responding to the pandemic.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it was not what I expected.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that was when I really started to take a deeper look at what are their true beliefs and what are they actually working, you know, living out in action.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it was not congruent.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, then I started examining the word, if you will, not necessarily from the biblical perspective, straight out of the Bible, but how they were interpreting it.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a lot of guilt that was put on the congregation about tithing and about giving constantly.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I was part of that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I tithed faithfully every single week for 15 years.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: But then there became a point where it became more that that was the message versus just living a really positive, good life and treating people well.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that's what this was supposed to be about.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I stepped away.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, naturally, I kind of organically stepped away during the pandemic.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we went on lockdown and we started um watching online, but then I was deeper questioning like, is this really what I want to stand for?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Is this really what I believe?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm really seeing how people are responding.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there was also a lot of political influence around that time.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, wait a second, because I thought those were separate.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I was taught in US history class.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: What is going on?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm a very kind of like follow the law, follow the book kind of person.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so I stepped away.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I during that time was really wrestling deeply though, because I had been part of this church for so long.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: I felt it was my home.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was connected with a lot of the people in the congregation.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: And one of their pastors, um, who was no longer a pastor at this church, I reached out to him and I said, I need some guidance.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: I trusted him and his wife, and I said, I need some guidance.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really wrestling, and here's what I'm wrestling with.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: And he was really great about um just kind of objectively asking me questions to help me find the answer.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it was after about three months after that conversation, I made the decision to leave that church.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it was so hard.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I knew that I'm like, I can see where this is going.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's not congruent with my values and my belief system.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: I have to leave.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: That is something I admire about you, Elizabeth.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you kind of helped me think about what are my values?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because you talk about how you've kind of established your your hard no's and your yeses through your values.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: I I do actually wrote about it in my book, um, which is interesting that you talked about the balance that I have between science and faith.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because I wrote a book about living a migraine free life, and it's the science and spirituality of living a migraine free life.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, I do balance science and spirituality in kind of my decision making and kind of the filter that I use are my values.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: And my values are number one is integrity.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: I want to do the right thing when no one is looking, and it's really easy for me to do that.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: My parents would always say, if you walk past a piece of garbage on the sidewalk, pick it up.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't matter if anybody's around, pick it up.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh yes, I can't, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta do the right thing.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: The second one is peace.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: If it doesn't bring me peace, I probably shouldn't be doing it because there's something telling me I shouldn't be doing it.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, what would you say to people?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: There are folks who I hear this regularly.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I don't really believe in God, I believe in science.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So as someone who's trying to balance both of those, what would you say to that?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think through my journey, what I've learned is the way I live my life is as long as what you believe doesn't harm someone else or harm yourself, believe it.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of where my line is, has been created.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't believe in God in the formal sense, that's not for me to change your mind.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's for me to like, how does that show up for you and where is our common ground?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if it's science, I mean again, I come from a you know a deep science background and I'm super inquisitive in the why.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's dive deep together.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: Let's figure this out together and find out where is the common ground.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: I probably 10 years ago would have tried to convert someone to look at science and find God in it, which is perfectly plausible.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: And there's times I am like, there's nothing that can explain this besides something that's a higher power or supernatural, because it's like what kidneys are doing what when I'm sleeping?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like how does how do they know?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but at the same time, I wasn't there.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not the authority figure.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I can't tell someone to be to believe something if I don't have all of the answers.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: What I love about your story is that there's just kind of this evolution.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: And even at the top of our conversation, you said, I'm still on my faith journey.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, how would you describe your experience now?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'll say this too.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I remember going for a walk with you and just being so mesmerized by your story and and how you live your life, and um being surprised that you believed in God.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I say that because wait, wait, wait.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know now that I know you I'm wondering if you believe in God.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just believe it's a good idea.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, how do you that strikes me really far?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: And she believes in God.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was just kind of surprising to me because I think some I made the the assumption or the stereotype that if you're this intelligent, you can't possibly believe in God.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how I would describe it.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: I just I just remember thinking, like, oh my gosh, like she's you're the full package.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: I would trust you with anything.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like you'd lead the charge, you'd you'd care for other people, integrity being one of your values, like of course it is.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I see it in how you live your life and how you show up and how you really listen to people.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, sorry, I got away from myself there.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: How would you describe the path that you're on now?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, thank you so much for that, Heidi.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't take offense to that at all.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a beautiful compliment.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so around the time that I had chosen to leave the Christian church, and I say the Christian church as that particular church, not the Christian church as a whole at that time, um, I also was writing my book, Um, The Migraine Method.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: And through that journey, I was also um under I was going through yoga certification, which if you are familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses, um, that is a big no-no.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yoga is essentially double worshiping.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was a big turning point too for me to become certified as a yoga teacher and understand the philosophy and the deeper um explanation of yoga.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just poses, it would have a much deeper um beginning.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: So through that journey, I discovered Buddhism.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: I had never really heard of it before.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't understand anything about it.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: But as I was going through this yoga certification, I'm like, wait a second, this actually aligns exactly with who I am.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: Be a good person, have right speech, have a right frame of mind, treat people well like what?
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that what we should have been doing this whole time?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so that sevenfold path, I was like, this actually aligns with exactly who I am.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Now, have I become a Buddhist?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: No, I wouldn't necessarily say that.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: Do I follow a lifestyle that is in a congruence with Buddhism?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: I would say yeah, probably.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because again, it's that, you know, pick the garbage up when you see it.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's treat people well, don't cause harm to others.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I do that in my nursing practice.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: I do that with my family.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that most closely aligned.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I started studying that a little bit more to understand how I can live a better life, how can I do better for those around me and the world around me, um, and keeping it simple.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to follow a particular religious like uh ceremony, if you will.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: I really wanted to keep it simple.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: Once the pandemic kind of, you know, settled in a little bit, um, I was living in Madison, Wisconsin for a short while, and I was like, I want to attend a Buddhist meditation center.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: I've never been to one, I don't know what it's like, and I want to see what it's like.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I attended one, and you know, just again observing, taking it all in, and a Buddhist monk is who uh ran the service, if you will, and I just loved it.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: He was uh a former Catholic priest who went into Buddhism and he had a sense of humor.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that was like right up my alley.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody who left a very strict religion, is now living a more simple life, and has a sense of humor.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so for about a year I attended that um that space, just soaking it in, learning, trying to let go of false beliefs that were really deeply ingrained into me that it was very much a performative nature in both sex, if you will, in terms of the Jehovah's Witness and the Christian faith.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, again, didn't necessarily call myself a Buddhist, I just called myself a spiritual person.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: Where I'm at today is probably even more confused because now I'm like, what am I?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was asked the other day, I was at a board meeting, and someone's like, Oh, do you have a church home?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, nope, and I probably won't have one.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like kind of taken back by that, and I had to just say, Oh, I'm, you know, really just I believe in God, I have a strong faith.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I wrestle with God sometimes in terms of like, okay, you said this, but this is what happened.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is what the Bible says, but this is what it looks like in life, and being very, still very confused about some of that.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm again a very deep questioner.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: I honor nature, I honor people, I honor living things, I honor God through those things.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's kind of where I'm at today.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's a much bigger playground, right?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's huge that you've kind of hammered out on your own.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's something really beautiful about that.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the container itself is like God, right?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it I think you experience your spirituality in connection with people, in connection with nature, in connection in embodiment, like under when you did the whole yoga.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that was you had a yoga studio, you facilitated book classes, like you just got deep inside of yourself and became curious.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how I see you.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: Wide-eyed, curious, Elizabeth, like your whole lifetime.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope that that's who you'll always be.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's so accurate, Heidi.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I love hearing that because I'm like, yes, that's who I am.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for identifying that.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't always have the words to say that.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that um we find on this podcast is what what's coming clear to me is that most of us that have a relationship with God in some way have not arrived.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Nor do I think we will until maybe we're done breathing.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um one of the things that I love about what you're saying is I have a relationship with God, it's evolving, and I'm gonna keep moving towards it.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the best we can ask of anybody, even those that feel like I've arrived on everything I believe and I've got it nailed.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: That we would just encourage people to continue to grow, uh, evolve, and transform into whatever you know, relationship is gonna be.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for sharing that.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh Steve, do you remember what you said at my uncle's funeral uh about uh and maybe it was a a story that from the Buddhist teaching about like pointing to the moon?
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he so her uncle Rich and I were um very close, and I asked him in his final days, like how would you describe your faith now?
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, and I'm gonna butcher this a little bit, that he said, I feel like all religions point to the light.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to get closer to the light, and I want to follow the light.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter what expression of faith people have, it was about pointing to the light.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Was that it, Heidi?
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we we sometimes like if there's a bunch of people kind of pointing to the light, we get more hung up on the people that are pointing instead of the light itself or something like that, right?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: That is so beautiful.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: And Elizabeth knew my uncle Rich.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so thankful that you that you got to know him and she did a beautiful portrait of him that I was able to have one for myself and give to my family.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I know we're kind of bumping up against the time right now, but maybe you can share kind of how now you're an art, not now you're an artist.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've been an artist your whole life, but you're in this chapter where my gosh, you just have all of these creative ways of expressing your thoughts and the I don't know, it's like coming to life through your art.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: So can you explain a little bit about your art?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you so much.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: The easiest way to find me is my website, um, elisabethpriller.com.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm sure we'll link that in the show notes.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm also on Instagram and Facebook under the same um profile, Elizabeth Priller Studio.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's a good way to find my not only my art, but also my thoughts.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, my most recent book was a coloring book of my illustrations paired with my poetry.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's poetry that I've had like locked away on my computer.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, let me put these two together.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's my most recent publication, but that's the best way to find me.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: How fun is that?
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're getting ready to wrap this up, but I I did want to ask Elizabeth if she would do something.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Something else on your resume is that you speak Spanish.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so do you speak it well enough that you would feel comfortable for those Spanish speakers that are on here?
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Could you give them a message, give them a greeting, give them something?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: I will say the phrase that has stuck with me most of my life.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: My grandmother, um, my mother's side of the family is from Mexico, and I did not learn learn it formally until later in life.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, if you don't use it, you lose it.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: But there is one phrase that has stuck with me.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: No todo loco y brio es oro.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it means not everything that glitters is gold.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_05: That's beautiful.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so that has stuck with me as a reminder that just because it's shiny doesn't mean it's gold, and to really examine it um for its purity.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think Tolkien said that.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'll take it.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think he did.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, thank you so much for sharing your story and just your life with us.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that please, listeners, look her up on Instagram, look up her website because she is someone that I think everyone should know.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to share you with the world.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, thank you so much.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you all.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a joy.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, all right.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we like to end our podcast on a lighter note.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear maybe a funny story to bring some levity to the conversation.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: So you now that you've gotten to know me a little bit, you may not be surprised by this, but this is one of my um earliest memories of school.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: So it was my first day of kindergarten.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's a pretty important day.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you've got a new school, uh, new people, new teachers, etc.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sitting there, and again, I always was observing people and always thinking, am I supposed to be here?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: Are these my people?
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like just observing people as a whole.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so my teacher is taking roll call.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: And Elizabeth is a daydreamer, so naturally I'm in and out of consciousness in terms of paying attention.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I kind of hear what the other students are saying when their names are called, and she says my name, Elizabeth Chambers, and I say president, because I thought that that's what everybody was saying.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: She was saying present.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe that's a foreshadowing.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: You haven't hit that box yet.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, I haven't, not yet.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so I that's kind of that sums up Elizabeth, not really fully paying attention in her own world, and clearly thought it was president.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I will vote for you for sure.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, you have my vote.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate you all so much.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Elizabeth.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, thank you so much.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: This was really great.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're gonna help a lot of people, and thank you for speaking so honestly and deeply about so many great things.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: This was such a joy.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_03: And Heidi, thank you so much for the invitation.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: I really am honored, and I have been just it makes my heart happy.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: So happy.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Steve.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: Me too.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Heidi, thank you for bringing her on.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: What a great interview and what an accomplished person.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: And what I took away is just her poise and grace for so many situations that she's been in, but also how she's carrying herself forward.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: That her life is really about uh being filled with grace and doing you know what what the Bible would say is you know, act justly, love mercy, walk humbly.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so real, she's such an authentic person.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not she's not putting on airs.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it's what drew drew me to her is that she's a real person, like the velveteen rabbit, right?
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like she's been worn down, but my gosh, is she a strong human?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm glad we got to meet her like that.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what about you, CJ?
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: What did you take away?
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was listening during the the pandemic part because we never really talked about it, but there I'm sure across the world church hurt happened in pandemic a lot and is like magnified.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we always talk I talk about this with my wife.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's just some couples that if your relationship was bad before the pandemic, it was amplified.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them didn't make it through the pandemic.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing with churches, same thing with churches.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: If the church relationship or something wasn't mentioned, or um, there's values that were like hidden below, it came out during the pandemic and people left.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Even our church, uh, me and the church that me and Steve go to, there was a huge split during the pandemic that had to do with Black Lives Matter, yeah, you know, um, protocols, stuff like that.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that was a big chapter in everyone's like religious, you know, journey.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it'd be a great interview, like how the pandemic has impacted people's church experience because I remember Josh and I were still married at the time and his office was in the basement.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I accidentally posted a video for my work in diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it was around um when George Floyd was murdered, and I posted it to my personal Facebook account instead of my professional account.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_02: And people were sending us private messages.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna take our money from the church, we're gonna leave the church if this is really how Heidi sees the world.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember going into the basement and looking at Josh and saying, You can work there, but I cannot worship next to people who are bigots.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was like so angry, and um, because there was a lot and we were paying attention differently, right?
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we were all paying attention, that's probably what was different.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, right.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, thank you so much for listening, and I hope that you listen next time.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: But until then, be blessed.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: Bye, guys.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.