Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL': Kohberger's Take-Down from Victim's Sister, Orders Him to 'Sit Up'

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'YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL': Kohberger's Take-Down from Victim's Sister, Orders Him to 'Sit Up' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Coburger Brian Coburger guilty and
0:11
Speaker 1: sentenced life plus life plus life plus life. That's four
0:17
Speaker 1: life sentences plus ten. Is it justice? I'm Nancy Grace.
0:24
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
0:26
Speaker 1: being with us in the last hours. Convicted quadruple killer
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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger in a court of law and now sentenced.
0:38
Speaker 1: The families of the four victims filing out of that courtroom.
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Speaker 1: Many people call it closure. Let me inform you there
0:47
Speaker 1: is no such thing as closure when the person you
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Speaker 1: love the most is murdered. Let's take a listen to
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Speaker 1: Judge Hippler on the bench.
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Speaker 2: I am not able to come up with anything redeeming
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Speaker 2: about mister Coburger because his grotesque acts of evil have
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Speaker 2: buried in hidden anything that might have been good or
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Speaker 2: prinsically human about him. His actions have made him the
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Speaker 2: worst of the worst. Even impleading guilty is giving nothing
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Speaker 2: hinting of remorse or redemption, nothing suggesting even a recognition
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Speaker 2: or understanding, let alone regret for the pain that he
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Speaker 2: has caused. And therefore I will not attempt to speak
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Speaker 2: about him further other than to simply sentence him. So
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Speaker 2: that he is forever removed from civilized society.
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Speaker 1: Himpler tees it up. Then he brings down the hammer. Listen.
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Speaker 2: Recognizing the standards that govern this Court's sentencing decisions as
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Speaker 2: set forth in state be two Hill, I hereby sentence
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Speaker 2: mister Coburger as follows on count one burglary ten years fixed,
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Speaker 2: zero years indeterminate. I also impose a fine of fifty
2:02
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. Count two, first degree murder of Madison Mogen I,
2:08
Speaker 2: sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment
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Speaker 2: without the possibility of parole, a fine of fifty thousand
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Speaker 2: dollars and a civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable
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Speaker 2: to the family of the victim. On count three, for
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Speaker 2: first degree murder of Kaylei gonsalvs I, sentence the defendant
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Speaker 2: to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility
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Speaker 2: of parole, a fine of fifty thousand dollars and a
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Speaker 2: civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable to the victim
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Speaker 2: of the family or to the family of the victim.
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Speaker 3: Pardon me.
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Speaker 2: On count four for the first degree murder of Santa
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Speaker 2: Kernodle I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of
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Speaker 2: life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of
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Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars and a civil penalty of five thousand
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Speaker 2: dollars payable to the family of the victim. On count five,
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Speaker 2: for the first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, I sentenced
3:02
Speaker 2: the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without
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Speaker 2: the possibility of parole, a fine of fifty thousand dollars
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Speaker 2: and a civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable to
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Speaker 2: the family of the victim. The sentences on counts one, two, three, four,
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Speaker 2: and five shall run consecutively to one another. I remand
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Speaker 2: the defendant to the custody of the Otto State Board
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Speaker 2: of Corrections for to be imprisoned and an appropriate facility
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Speaker 2: and execution of the sentence, where he will remain until
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Speaker 2: he dies.
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Speaker 1: You've heard from many outlets that the defendant, Brian Coberg,
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Speaker 1: will be sentenced to life behind bars. That is not correct.
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Speaker 1: This is life without the possibility of parole. And for
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Speaker 1: good measure, Hippler, who have got to give a lot
3:45
Speaker 1: of credit an amazing judge on the banch throughout this ordeal.
3:51
Speaker 1: For added good measure. He ran the life without Possibility
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Speaker 1: of parole consecutively, which means that when you finished one sentence,
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Speaker 1: that's when the next sentence starts. A lot of judges
4:05
Speaker 1: sentence concurrently, where one life sentence runs at the same
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Speaker 1: time as the next one, which gives a lot of
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Speaker 1: leeway for a defendant to get out from behind bars.
4:15
Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen it over and over again where
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Speaker 1: the laws change or circumstances change, and somehow a defendant
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Speaker 1: sentence to life actually walks free. Yes, It's happened quite often.
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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, perfect example, Charles Manson gets sentenced to a
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Speaker 1: very stiff sentence and that would be the DP and
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Speaker 1: then in that jurisdiction California is determined the DPE death
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Speaker 1: penalty is unconstitutional, so his sentence was changed, setting Charles
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Speaker 1: Manson up for parole. Yes, in this case, Hippler, God
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Speaker 1: bless him, sentences Coburger to life without parole, then life
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Speaker 1: without parole, and two more times to run consecutively. I've
5:05
Speaker 1: got an all star panel, but I want to go
5:07
Speaker 1: straight to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
5:12
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My feet on Amazon. Host of
5:15
Speaker 1: a star podcast Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: even though he's been sentenced to ELWOP life without parole.
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Speaker 1: At the end of that hearing today, just an hour ago,
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Speaker 1: I felt empty. I felt empty. You out of this
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Speaker 1: panel have seen so many death scenes as of I
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Speaker 1: Why the empty feeling, Jo Scott. It doesn't feel like justice.
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Speaker 4: Because there's no way Nancy to replace these precious souls.
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Speaker 4: There will always be an empty chair at every Thanksgiving table,
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Speaker 4: at every Christmas table. This is That's what makes this
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Speaker 4: so unsatisfying. You cannot replace those kids, period into paragraph.
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Speaker 4: That's what makes it so unsatisfying as far as I'm concerned.
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Speaker 1: You know, Joe Scott, you like me, have children, and
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Speaker 1: I think about, like, right now, I'm already planning the birthday,
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Speaker 1: What am I going to do? What am I going
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Speaker 1: to do for Christmas? And it spins out and in
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Speaker 1: my mind it's this endless path of my family and
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Speaker 1: me my husband with them, what do they have? All
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Speaker 1: they had was today The answers have been taken away
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Speaker 1: from them because there was no trial. We're getting bits
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Speaker 1: and pieces of information now that just make me sick,
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Speaker 1: sick to think that his motive was his sick pervy fetishes,
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Speaker 1: that he wanted to rape women that were passed out.
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Speaker 1: I mean, we're learning so much more. We're learning that
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Speaker 1: the defense was going to be blaming some of the
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Speaker 1: victim's friends. That was the defense. We're finding out that
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Speaker 1: his car was absolutely identified in the area, tagging everything
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Speaker 1: multiple times that night. There's even an eyewitness that identifies
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Speaker 1: him at the home the night of the murders. This
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Speaker 1: case would have been a death penalty in the end.
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Speaker 1: I don't know if that even that would have satisfied
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Speaker 1: a desire for justice. Here, we've got the future to
7:30
Speaker 1: look forward to. They've got nothing except today when they
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Speaker 1: gave those victim impact statements. Joe Scott, that's all they've got.
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Speaker 4: No, You're absolutely right, And look, I got to tell
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Speaker 4: you thank you for making the comment about the word closure.
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Speaker 4: It's one of the biggest lives that's ever been sold
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Speaker 4: to people that are going through grief. You do, you
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Speaker 4: do not, on any level achieve closure. It's very dissatisfying,
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Speaker 4: you know. And I've dealt with so many families over
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Speaker 4: the years, Nancy that still call me. You know, they
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Speaker 4: would call me seven years after the fact, after they
8:02
Speaker 4: had lost a loved one, many of them drunk. Can
8:05
Speaker 4: you imagine that in the middle of the night, I'd
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Speaker 4: still be on duty at the m's office, just wanting
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Speaker 4: to have somebody to talk to because no one else understood.
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Speaker 4: And I can't say that I could even plumb the
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Speaker 4: depths of it, but I was at the scene and
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Speaker 4: I talked to them, and that's that one point of
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Speaker 4: contact that they have Nancy over the years. And you
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Speaker 4: never stop missing the person, you never have closure. You
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Speaker 4: know why, because this guy, this convicted five time felon
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Speaker 4: now is still breathing air and their kids are not
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Speaker 4: He sentenced, not just he's sentenced these families. Please hear
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Speaker 4: me right on this. He sentenced these families to life
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Speaker 4: imprisonment along with him. They had no choice in this matter.
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Speaker 4: They are all that remains. They have been sentenced as well.
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Speaker 1: The victims in this case who are brutally murdered. From
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Speaker 1: the beginning, we were told they were murdered in their sleep.
9:00
Speaker 1: That's not true. That is not true. Joining me, Susan Hendrix,
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Speaker 1: you know her well, She's been with us all day
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Speaker 1: long outside the courthouse. She's the author of Down the Hill,
9:13
Speaker 1: My Descend into the double murder in Delphi, and now
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Speaker 1: she has latched onto this case like nobody's business. I
9:20
Speaker 1: want to welcome Susan Hendricks for being with us. Susan,
9:23
Speaker 1: we found out now that Xana had come down the
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Speaker 1: stairs and she fought for her life. She fought for
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Speaker 1: her life. That's nothing like what we were told to
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Speaker 1: start with.
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Speaker 5: Absolutely, and when new details come out, they're just more
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Speaker 5: excruciating for the family. We have heard that maybe she
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Speaker 5: saw something, heard something was getting of course the door
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Speaker 5: dash as you know, and then maybe he chased her
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Speaker 5: you mentioned, And I thought this was key, that this
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Speaker 5: is all they had.
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Speaker 6: Was today.
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Speaker 5: I was in the courtroom and I could see it,
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Speaker 5: Nancy building the tension, Kelly's his knee was shaking. He
10:01
Speaker 5: was to the right of me and his knee was shaking,
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Speaker 5: and I could tell he was going through what he
10:05
Speaker 5: was going to say. So he's almost like practicing. And
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Speaker 5: it's all they had, and they gave it everything they've
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Speaker 5: been wanting to say this for so long, everything that
10:14
Speaker 5: they wanted to say. And I will say there was
10:16
Speaker 5: a ten minute break in between and I looked at
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Speaker 5: Kelly's dad, and I said, you did a great job
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Speaker 5: in Kelly's sister and they said thank you and they
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Speaker 5: were smiling.
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Speaker 6: I feel like it's so healing to get that out.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I disagree, Susan, I disagree. I'll
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Speaker 1: tell you why. I hadn't had this memory for a decade,
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Speaker 1: two decades, But as we were hearing about Dylan Mortenson
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Speaker 1: stating that she had to go and sleep in her
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Speaker 1: mother's bed for so long after this, I remember sleeping
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Speaker 1: with my mother and my father in their little bed
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Speaker 1: after my fiance's murder. Those memories, like Joe Scott was saying,
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Speaker 1: they never go away and they come back at the
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Speaker 1: most improbable moments. So all this about healing and coclosure
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Speaker 1: and no closure, there's no such thing. And I really
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Speaker 1: resent people that have never been through it talk about
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Speaker 1: how all the victims' families are healed because they spoke
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Speaker 1: for five minutes in a courtroom. But I can tell
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Speaker 1: you one thing that happened in this hearing, and I
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Speaker 1: know you saw it. Tuesdays and Hendricks Killey Gounsovus's sister
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Speaker 1: let him have it. She said a lot of what
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Speaker 1: we all wanted to say to coburger. Listen.
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Speaker 7: My name is Olivia, and I'm the big sister of
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Speaker 7: Keilly Gonsalvez, and I was blessed to love Madison Mogan
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Speaker 7: as a sister too. I'm not here today to speak
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Speaker 7: in grief. I'm here to speak in truth because the
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Speaker 7: truth is, my sister Kayley and her best friend Mattie
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Speaker 7: were not yours to take. They were not yours to study,
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Speaker 7: to stalk, or to silence. They were two pieces of
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Speaker 7: a whole, the perfect yin and yang. They are everything
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Speaker 7: that you could never be loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave
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Speaker 7: and powerful. Because the truth about Kayley and Maddy, they
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Speaker 7: would have been kind to you if you would approach
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Speaker 7: them in their everyday lives. They would have given you directions,
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Speaker 7: thanked you for the compliment, or awkwardly giggled to make
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Speaker 7: your own words less uncomfortable for you in a world
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Speaker 7: that rejected you. They would have shown mercy. Because the
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Speaker 7: truth is, I'm angry. Every day I'm angry. I'm left
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Speaker 7: shouting at the inside of my own head. Everything I
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Speaker 7: wish I could say to you. The truth about me
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Speaker 7: is when I heard the news, I didn't cry I
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Speaker 7: listened for them. I promised them I would that I
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Speaker 7: would fight for them, that I would show up no
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Speaker 7: matter what it cost me.
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Speaker 1: That's Olivia Gonsalva said. She starts off talking about her sister,
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Speaker 1: then she lays in to Coburger.
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Speaker 7: I won't stand here and give you what you want.
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Speaker 7: I won't offer you tears, I won't offer you trembling
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Speaker 7: disappointments like you thrive on pain, on fear, and on
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Speaker 7: the illusion of power, And I won't feed your beast. Instead,
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Speaker 7: I will call you what you are, sociopath, psychopath, murderer.
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Speaker 7: I will ask the questions that reverberate violently in my
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Speaker 7: own head, so loudly that I can't think straight most
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Speaker 7: any day. Some of these might be familiar, So set
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Speaker 7: up straight.
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Speaker 1: I talk to you.
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Speaker 7: How is your life right before you murdered my sisters?
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Speaker 7: Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment?
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Speaker 7: Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time.
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Speaker 7: Why did you choose my sisters before making your move?
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Speaker 7: Did you approach my sisters? Detail what you were thinking
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Speaker 7: and feeling before leaving their home? Is there anything else
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Speaker 7: you did?
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Speaker 2: Yes?
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Speaker 7: How does it feel to know the only thing you
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Speaker 7: failed more miserably at than being a murderer is trying.
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Speaker 1: To be a rapper?
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Speaker 7: Did you recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows?
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Speaker 2: Why?
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Speaker 7: November thirteenth, did you truly think your Amazon purchase was
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Speaker 7: untraceable because you used a gift card? How do you
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Speaker 7: find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case
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Speaker 7: of visual snow? Where is the murder weapon? The clothes
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Speaker 7: you wore that night? What did you bring into the
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Speaker 7: house with you? What was the second weapon you used
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Speaker 7: on Keyley? What were Kaylee's last words?
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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is a special guest, Cheryl McCollum.
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Speaker 1: She's a forensic expert. She is the founder and director
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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, and she's the star
15:27
Speaker 1: of a hit podcast, Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum is joining
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Speaker 1: us from the field now. Cheryl McCollum. I don't know
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Speaker 1: if anybody else caught this. I bet you did. You're
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Speaker 1: hearing Liva go Solvice as Keille Goslves as sister, and
15:43
Speaker 1: she's reading right out of the questionnaire the Coburger gave
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Speaker 1: to all those violent felons as part of his pH
15:55
Speaker 1: d study did you hear did you prepare? How was
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Speaker 1: your life right before you murdered my sisters before leaving
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Speaker 1: your apartment? Detail what you were thinking and feeling at
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Speaker 1: the time. Why did you choose this victim before you
16:10
Speaker 1: made your move? Did you approach the victim? Detail what
16:14
Speaker 1: you were thinking and feeling before leaving your home? Is
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Speaker 1: there anything else you did? She is knifing him with
16:21
Speaker 1: his own words, Cheryl McCollum.
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Speaker 2: It was brilliant.
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Speaker 8: It was so unbelievably delivered. You're talking about a young
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Speaker 8: woman that is staring down the monster that killed her sister,
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Speaker 8: and she said, you will get no tears from me.
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Speaker 8: You are not going to see me shaking my boots
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Speaker 8: looking at you. And then when she delivered his own
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Speaker 8: words back to him, it was like nothing I've ever seen, Naki,
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Speaker 8: You and I have seen thousands of these. Normally it's
16:55
Speaker 8: only about the victim when she turned it on him.
17:00
Speaker 8: Are not just questions he had, but I think they're
17:03
Speaker 8: valid to what the family deserves to know.
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Speaker 1: And Cheryl, everyone keeps talking about, well, he showed no emotion, Cheryl,
17:12
Speaker 1: I never have, but I've seen people have pet lizards
17:15
Speaker 1: or sometimes maybe an iguana, but let me just go
17:17
Speaker 1: with lizard. It doesn't show emotion. It's called blooded. It's
17:23
Speaker 1: a reptile. Throughout the entire sentencing, Coburger sat there and
17:29
Speaker 1: showed no emotion. What did everybody think was going to happen?
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Speaker 1: That he'd start crying and beg forgiveness and say he
17:37
Speaker 1: was sorry and tell us the truth. No, in fact,
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Speaker 1: anything he says with this point on is a lie,
17:44
Speaker 1: and it's only for his self gratification or for he
17:48
Speaker 1: has aggrandizement. Of course, he didn't even I don't even
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Speaker 1: know if I saw him blink.
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Speaker 8: Cheryl, You're absolutely right, And I think that's another reason
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Speaker 8: when they addressed him about what he did, he did
18:01
Speaker 8: not give them anything that he could get enjoyment from.
18:06
Speaker 8: He didn't get that sadness, that gut wrenching. I caused
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Speaker 8: this chaos, I caused this heartache. They took that away
18:13
Speaker 8: from them. I thought her words were not just brilliant,
18:17
Speaker 8: but spot on, and it might have just set the
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Speaker 8: bar for everybody coming behind her.
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Speaker 1: You know, cherylmccall, I'm going to ask you a personal question.
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Speaker 1: In all the years i've known you, all the years
18:27
Speaker 1: we've worked together, I've never asked you, have you ever
18:31
Speaker 1: listened to testimony or in this case, a sentencing hearing
18:35
Speaker 1: and get physically nauseous because I actually got sick to
18:40
Speaker 1: my stomach listening to all this and hearing what these victims'
18:45
Speaker 1: families lived through in the ordeal that they're still going through.
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Speaker 1: It was like the worst flashback I've had in years.
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Speaker 8: You know, I certainly.
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Speaker 9: Often, you know, would find myself just choking up, like
19:01
Speaker 9: getting really emotional and crime because you can't hear it
19:06
Speaker 9: as a sister, as a daughter, Now, especially.
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Speaker 8: As a mother, I can tell you I could stay
19:12
Speaker 8: pretty good in control prior to having hunting Caroline. After that,
19:19
Speaker 8: I'm much more sensitive. I'm much more apt to just
19:23
Speaker 8: try to imagine the unthinkable, the just. There's no way
19:29
Speaker 8: to put into words. You and I have talked about it, Nancy.
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Speaker 8: You and I have sat with more than one victim
19:35
Speaker 8: and tried to help them craft their victim impact statement.
19:38
Speaker 8: How do you put it into words what your child
19:43
Speaker 8: means to you? It's impossible. But these families did a
19:47
Speaker 8: remarkable job today, There's no doubt about it.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Can we all agree that the families were remarkable?
19:54
Speaker 1: Every speaker in their own way was remarkable, but is
19:57
Speaker 1: their justice? Will we ever know what happened? We may
20:03
Speaker 1: never know a motive, We may never know how this
20:07
Speaker 1: thing went down. And I've got to tell you there's
20:12
Speaker 1: always questions and they never go away. For the rest
20:17
Speaker 1: of the victims family's life. They're going to wonder, well,
20:20
Speaker 1: wait a minute, did she see who attacked her? Did
20:23
Speaker 1: she have any idea? Had they ever met, did they
20:26
Speaker 1: fight back?
20:26
Speaker 2: What happened?
20:27
Speaker 1: And those are questions not everybody wants to know the
20:30
Speaker 1: answer to, but a lot of victims' families want to
20:33
Speaker 1: know what happened in the last moments of their child's life.
20:40
Speaker 1: You know, we read in news releases and obituaries X
20:45
Speaker 1: died with their family around them. It wasn't like this
20:50
Speaker 1: for the Idaho victims. They died at the hands of
20:55
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger, who slaughtered them. And now we got to
21:00
Speaker 1: give him three hats at a cot for the rest
21:04
Speaker 1: of his life. Now, I do appreciate what Judge Hipler did.
21:09
Speaker 1: I've got nothing bad to say about Hipler. Listen to
21:13
Speaker 1: how he described that morning of November thirteen.
21:18
Speaker 2: During the quiet morning hours of November thirteen, twenty twenty two,
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Speaker 2: a faceless coward reached the tranquility of six beautiful young
21:28
Speaker 2: people and senselessly slaughtered them. Four of them. Who committed
21:39
Speaker 2: this unspeakable evil was unknown for several weeks, but due
21:44
Speaker 2: to the killers in competence and outstanding police work by
21:47
Speaker 2: numerous local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies, the person
21:53
Speaker 2: that slithered through that sliding glass door at one one
21:55
Speaker 2: two two King Road now stands before the world, and
21:59
Speaker 2: this court unmasked. This unfathomable and senseless act of evil
22:06
Speaker 2: has caused immeasurable pain and loss. No parent should ever
22:13
Speaker 2: have to bury their child. This is the greatest tragedy
22:19
Speaker 2: that can be inflicted upon a person. Parents who took
22:25
Speaker 2: their children to college in a truck filled with moving
22:29
Speaker 2: boxes had to bring them home in hearses lined.
22:32
Speaker 10: With collins.
22:37
Speaker 1: Are.
22:37
Speaker 11: One of the roommates has passed out.
22:40
Speaker 8: And he a strong class and the up did you?
22:43
Speaker 2: On November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, in Leayta County, State
22:48
Speaker 2: of Idaho, kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalvez, Xana
22:53
Speaker 2: kernodle Ethan chapin Yes Oh.
22:56
Speaker 12: And they saw some man of their house that was Brian.
22:58
Speaker 1: Kiberger gets life plus life plus Life plus Life plus
23:04
Speaker 1: ten consecutively, one after the other, Life without parole, Will
23:11
Speaker 1: there ever truly be justice? We got to pay for
23:17
Speaker 1: three hots and a cot for this guy. We've got
23:20
Speaker 1: to pay for his therapy and his iPad and his
23:24
Speaker 1: vegan meals, and one day we're gonna have to pay
23:28
Speaker 1: for his internet connection so he can zoom with people
23:32
Speaker 1: to describe his side of the story and help coauthor
23:36
Speaker 1: his book and his made for TV movie and blah
23:39
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. Yeah, now I just figured out
23:43
Speaker 1: why the whole thing made me nauseous because of that. Well,
23:45
Speaker 1: one shining light in today was Olivia Gonsalves.
23:51
Speaker 7: Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must
23:55
Speaker 7: have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up
23:58
Speaker 7: to your family home. It's December thirtieth, twenty twenty two.
24:04
Speaker 7: Which do you regret more returning to the crime scene
24:08
Speaker 7: five hours later, or never ever going back to Moscow,
24:13
Speaker 7: not even once after stalking them there for months. If
24:19
Speaker 7: you're really smart, do you think you'd be here right now?
24:23
Speaker 7: What's it like needing this much attention just to feel real?
24:29
Speaker 7: You're terrified of being ordinary? Aren't you Do you feel
24:35
Speaker 7: anything at all? Or are you exactly what you always feared? Nothing?
24:43
Speaker 7: If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding? Defendant?
24:47
Speaker 7: You see I'm here today as me, But who are you?
24:52
Speaker 7: Let's try to take off your mask and see.
24:55
Speaker 1: Olivia Gonsalve is laying into Brian Coburger, and I find
24:59
Speaker 1: it really interesting the way she talked to him and
25:03
Speaker 1: asked him these questions, many of them out of his
25:05
Speaker 1: own questionnaire, and that he, as part of his PhD studies,
25:09
Speaker 1: would ask convicted violent felons behind bars, what were you
25:13
Speaker 1: thinking before you committed the violent crime? What went through
25:16
Speaker 1: your mind? How did she meet the victims? Just tons
25:19
Speaker 1: and tons of personal questions, But here she talks about
25:25
Speaker 1: many of the mistakes he made, mistakes that led to
25:29
Speaker 1: his uncovering. What about it? Joe Scott Morgan?
25:33
Speaker 4: You know he I think, I think that he longs
25:37
Speaker 4: for this opportunity to talk to people. That's one of
25:40
Speaker 4: the reasons he didn't say anything in the closing. That's
25:43
Speaker 4: one of the things he didn't one of the reasons
25:45
Speaker 4: we didn't have any form of elocution from him, Nancy.
25:49
Speaker 4: He wants to control things on his own terms. I
25:52
Speaker 4: love what the judge said relative to preventing him from
25:57
Speaker 4: creating anything in the future. And can I admit one
26:00
Speaker 4: thing to you real quick, Yes, the idea that he's
26:05
Speaker 4: going to not be allowed to talk to anybody from
26:08
Speaker 4: Hollywood about a story or whatever the judge alluded to.
26:12
Speaker 4: That understand, academics are just as mercenary, okay, because they're
26:17
Speaker 4: going to cloak themselves and say that we need to
26:20
Speaker 4: study this guy. What the hell else do we have
26:22
Speaker 4: to learn from him? Stick him in a deep dark hole.
26:26
Speaker 4: I don't ever want to hear his name again after today.
26:29
Speaker 4: To be perfectly honest.
26:30
Speaker 1: With you, I agree, Joe Scott. I hope I never
26:32
Speaker 1: hear him or see him again. But all of his
26:35
Speaker 1: business about how he cannot appeal the plea, that's not right.
26:40
Speaker 1: There's a US Supreme Court decision that says you can
26:43
Speaker 1: appeal a guilty plea that you willingly and knowingly enter.
26:49
Speaker 1: For instance, what if a year from now he finds
26:52
Speaker 1: out that some other person confessed a false confession, he
26:58
Speaker 1: could go back and claim neely discovered evidence and have
27:02
Speaker 1: that guilty plea thrown out. That's just an example. Guilty,
27:06
Speaker 1: Please can be appealed. So to think he'll never appeal this,
27:11
Speaker 1: that's a pipe dream. But I was noticing in the questioning.
27:16
Speaker 1: And I'm going to go now to doctor Chavon Scott, psychotherapist,
27:20
Speaker 1: a best selling author. Her new release is night Bird,
27:24
Speaker 1: and she wrote The Minds of mass Killers. Doctor Chavon Scott,
27:30
Speaker 1: There's so much more to say about you, but I
27:33
Speaker 1: want to ask you about Olivia and solve this. Addressing
27:38
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger in court, she says, if you are really smart,
27:43
Speaker 1: do you think you'd be here right now? Do you? Uh?
27:48
Speaker 1: What does it feel like to need this much attention
27:52
Speaker 1: just to feel real? That? And other questions. I've got
27:57
Speaker 1: them all laid down in front of me. She really
28:00
Speaker 1: called him on all of his mistakes, about how he
28:03
Speaker 1: looked down his nose at everybody else and felt superior
28:06
Speaker 1: to everybody else, but now he's the one in shackles
28:09
Speaker 1: in the orange jumpsuit.
28:11
Speaker 10: Yeah.
28:11
Speaker 13: I think she was brilliant because if you really want
28:14
Speaker 13: a jab at this guy's ego, that's the way to
28:18
Speaker 13: go about it is highlight his inadequacies, his mistakes, the
28:23
Speaker 13: ways that he thought he was such a brilliant killer
28:26
Speaker 13: and he was going to get away with it, and
28:28
Speaker 13: he didn't, And you hit him in that ego because
28:34
Speaker 13: we know he has an ego. And I think she
28:36
Speaker 13: did that beautifully. It's one of the awful things about
28:41
Speaker 13: psychopaths like this, who are sadistic. Often when they hear
28:46
Speaker 13: the family's pain, they get a perverse sense of pleasure
28:51
Speaker 13: out of it. They may sit there very stoic, they
28:54
Speaker 13: may not have a reaction, but inside they're enjoying it.
28:58
Speaker 13: I've heard them say I liked listening to the family
29:01
Speaker 13: suffering because they get off on suffering.
29:04
Speaker 1: Oh it's awful, Doctor Chevin Scott, I know that up
29:08
Speaker 1: here that killers enjoy like watching on TV, watching the hunt,
29:13
Speaker 1: watching the press conferences of people frantically looking for them.
29:17
Speaker 1: They like watching the victim's family begging. They like it.
29:23
Speaker 1: That's always been what I believed. But to hear you
29:26
Speaker 1: say it, that you know it, that you've spoken to
29:28
Speaker 1: killers that tell you they enjoyed it, I'm just wondering,
29:32
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, I'm just wondering if that piece of crap
29:38
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger enjoyed watching the victims' families suffering in court
29:45
Speaker 1: today because about based on what Chavin is telling me,
29:49
Speaker 1: doctor Chevin Scott, he probably did that freaking pervy.
29:54
Speaker 8: This is his big event. He calls all of this everything.
30:00
Speaker 8: A person that showed up today showed up because of him.
30:03
Speaker 8: Everybody upset he did it. Everybody that wasn't there, teachers
30:08
Speaker 8: and neighbors and friends and fraternity brothers. He calls every
30:13
Speaker 8: bit of that pain and anguish and chaos, every police officer,
30:18
Speaker 8: he did it. This is the biggest thing he will
30:22
Speaker 8: ever do in his life. This is the only thing
30:25
Speaker 8: anybody's ever going to talk to him about, want to
30:28
Speaker 8: hear from him about. He has nothing else to offer.
30:31
Speaker 8: But I want to say one thing about justice. And
30:33
Speaker 8: I want to make this really clear. When you talk
30:35
Speaker 8: about an eye for an eye, that sounds even like
30:40
Speaker 8: you took twenty dollars from me. You got to give
30:41
Speaker 8: me twenty dollars back. There is nothing that you could
30:46
Speaker 8: do to that man that would equal justice for those children.
30:52
Speaker 8: They were beautiful, they were loving, they were given, they
30:55
Speaker 8: were friendly, they were generous. He's none of those things.
31:00
Speaker 8: Hands get justice from him. If we put him in
31:03
Speaker 8: the electric chair and kill him, well, how many times
31:05
Speaker 8: do we get to killing? How many times do we
31:08
Speaker 8: revive him and kill him again. There is nothing mid
31:11
Speaker 8: evil enough we could do to him.
31:13
Speaker 1: I've got a great answer for that. I would say four.
31:17
Speaker 1: I'd say four four times too. Did you say kill
31:21
Speaker 1: him and revive him again? Yeah? Might go that far
31:26
Speaker 1: in seeking justice. I mean, I don't know if there
31:28
Speaker 1: ever is justice, But I know one thing I know.
31:32
Speaker 1: Olivia Gounsolves is a superstar. Listen to this.
31:35
Speaker 7: You didn't create devastation. You revealed it, and it's in
31:38
Speaker 7: yourself and that darkness you carry, that emptiness. You'll sit
31:43
Speaker 7: with it long after this is over. That is your sentence,
31:47
Speaker 7: and it was written on the wall long before you
31:50
Speaker 7: ever pled guilty. You didn't win. You just exposed yourself
31:57
Speaker 7: as the poward you are. You're a dellusional, pathetic, hypochondriac
32:03
Speaker 7: loser who thought you were so much smarter than everybody else,
32:08
Speaker 7: constantly scolding, turning your nose up to grammar mistakes, nitpicking
32:12
Speaker 7: and criticizing others. You wanted so badly to be different,
32:17
Speaker 7: to be special, to be better, to be deep, to
32:19
Speaker 7: be mysterious. You found yourself thinking you were better than
32:23
Speaker 7: everyone else, and you thought you could figure out the
32:26
Speaker 7: human psyche and see through it.
32:28
Speaker 14: All while tweaked.
32:28
Speaker 6: Out on heroin.
32:31
Speaker 7: Lurking in the shadows made you feel powerful because no
32:34
Speaker 7: one ever paid you any attention in the light.
32:36
Speaker 1: Two words, the bomb, Olivia Gonsalves the bob. Did you
32:41
Speaker 1: hear what? She said? Straight out to Greg Morris chomping
32:45
Speaker 1: at the bit, veteran criminal defense attorney at Morse I Legal,
32:48
Speaker 1: author of the Untested on Amazon, and you can find
32:52
Speaker 1: them at morse Illegal dot com. Man, this girl's got
32:57
Speaker 1: a future in front of her if she wants to
32:58
Speaker 1: be a felony prosecutor. Did you do you hear her?
33:00
Speaker 1: You're right, constantly scolding. You know, nobody hates anything more
33:05
Speaker 1: than I know it all, constantly scolding, turning your nose
33:10
Speaker 1: up to grammar mistakes. Remember he was a TA No,
33:14
Speaker 1: we do ntsizing.
33:18
Speaker 15: Yep.
33:19
Speaker 16: What if there's something that will stay with him for
33:23
Speaker 16: the rest of his life, it will be Olivia's allocution
33:29
Speaker 16: statement to him or victim impact statement on behalf of
33:31
Speaker 16: her sister. I've done this job for a long time.
33:34
Speaker 16: We can go back to the beginnings of criminals. Criminals
33:37
Speaker 16: are morons. This guy was a nobody who wanted to
33:41
Speaker 16: be special, and he's a nobody, loser, moron, and she
33:45
Speaker 16: called him on that and now all the other stuff.
33:48
Speaker 16: I think your experts are right. He liked to see
33:50
Speaker 16: the family struggle, and you know I caused all this,
33:53
Speaker 16: but that all stopped in his head when Olivia and
33:56
Speaker 16: the judge said something important too.
33:58
Speaker 15: He called him incompetent.
34:00
Speaker 16: When you attack a moron and call him for what
34:02
Speaker 16: he is is what the sister did to him, she
34:05
Speaker 16: can for what is. There is no closure in these cases.
34:08
Speaker 16: The trauma is too deep. My dad used to say,
34:10
Speaker 16: a parent who loses a child is only waiting to die,
34:15
Speaker 16: and so there is no closure. But knowing the criminal
34:19
Speaker 16: mind and knowing that this is born of stupidity, This
34:22
Speaker 16: is born of a loser, a weak person, a lazy person.
34:26
Speaker 16: That sister's statement, he will roll that over. And what
34:28
Speaker 16: he's going to do is he's going to think to himself,
34:31
Speaker 16: I'll show you. But he'll never be able to, so
34:34
Speaker 16: he will live in misery.
34:36
Speaker 15: Let alone.
34:37
Speaker 16: It's not three hots in the cop Our prison systems
34:39
Speaker 16: in America are difficult. Food is industrial level, so he
34:42
Speaker 16: will have a horrible experience.
34:44
Speaker 15: Every day will be how do I stop.
34:47
Speaker 1: Actually say that doesn't care to have food that you
34:51
Speaker 1: whit need. He's not getting his private chef to no, no.
34:54
Speaker 16: No, no, no, what you're not understanding, Nancy, in society were people,
35:00
Speaker 16: it's not. He will have a miserable existence and Olivia's
35:03
Speaker 16: statements will ring in his head because he is going
35:06
Speaker 16: to want to show where he's somebody, but he's a nobody.
35:09
Speaker 16: And she called him on it and brought vo to
35:11
Speaker 16: her for having the courage to do that.
35:13
Speaker 1: You know what, Mores, It just hit me in all
35:16
Speaker 1: the years that I prosecuted felony cases, and I would
35:20
Speaker 1: be in a closing argument and I would talk about
35:23
Speaker 1: all the mistakes the defendant made and how he got caught,
35:27
Speaker 1: Like it could be a fingerprint, It could be driving
35:31
Speaker 1: under a street lamp and somebody getting the tag id.
35:34
Speaker 1: It could be loose lips that sink ships where they
35:37
Speaker 1: said something that only the killer would know, that kind
35:41
Speaker 1: of thing. And there were a couple of times, and
35:44
Speaker 1: this was rare for me. Is you can only imagine
35:47
Speaker 1: that I would break a smile because such an idiot.
35:54
Speaker 1: Those were the only times when you would kind of
35:57
Speaker 1: get a laugh off the defendant house stupid and competently
36:00
Speaker 1: were that you would get a rise out of the defendant.
36:03
Speaker 1: That would make them matt no remorse, no shame. But
36:08
Speaker 1: when it's pointed out to them, hey, you screwed up
36:11
Speaker 1: a hole. That's how you got caught. That's the only
36:15
Speaker 1: way you'd get a rise out of them. And when
36:17
Speaker 1: Olivi Gosolvus was talking about you think you're so smart,
36:22
Speaker 1: you think you're brilliant, Look what you.
36:24
Speaker 15: Did, idiot, Well that's what it.
36:26
Speaker 1: Is that will stick with him.
36:28
Speaker 16: Morse, So he called him out on his you know,
36:31
Speaker 16: the way he viewed himself that was phony, not just
36:34
Speaker 16: you did this wrong or that, which was which was
36:37
Speaker 16: very impactful also, but also on you know.
36:40
Speaker 15: We know that you're a nobody.
36:42
Speaker 16: We know you're a loser who thinks you're special, and
36:45
Speaker 16: that's why you did this, but everybody knows you're not.
36:47
Speaker 16: And very to have the courage to be that articulate
36:50
Speaker 16: in such a unimaginable for anyone who hasn't experienced, I
36:54
Speaker 16: can't imagine. Even though I've sat in courtrooms and listened
36:57
Speaker 16: to this, I still no one can imagine what it's
36:59
Speaker 16: like unless you go through it. And also just to
37:02
Speaker 16: point out that was very smart. The prosecutor for the
37:06
Speaker 16: family to get the appellate waiver. We do that a
37:08
Speaker 16: lot in federal cases, at least in Florida. We don't
37:11
Speaker 16: do that much in state cases when there's a play,
37:14
Speaker 16: which most cases resolve by. But yes, you're right, there
37:17
Speaker 16: are very now narrow circumstances. He can appeal a habeas
37:21
Speaker 16: petition and ineffective counsel. Those petitions usually go nowhere fast.
37:27
Speaker 16: So that was a good thing for the family that
37:30
Speaker 16: maybe they don't realize now, But every time there's something
37:33
Speaker 16: in the paper about the initial brief was filed and
37:35
Speaker 16: now there's an appeal going to be heard, that overwhelms
37:38
Speaker 16: the family and feels like there's no this is going
37:42
Speaker 16: to open up again.
37:43
Speaker 1: I bet they feel a lot better when that firing
37:47
Speaker 1: squad goes down. No more now speaking yet, Well, that's
37:51
Speaker 1: you talking, that's not them talking. Living and solve us
37:55
Speaker 1: didn't stop there.
37:56
Speaker 7: You thought you were exceptional all because of a grade
37:58
Speaker 7: on a paper. You thought you were elite because your
38:02
Speaker 7: online IQ test from twenty ten told you so, all
38:07
Speaker 7: of that effort just to seem important.
38:09
Speaker 14: It's desperate.
38:11
Speaker 7: There is a name for your condition, though, your inflated
38:14
Speaker 7: ego just didn't allow you to see it.
38:16
Speaker 6: Wanna be.
38:19
Speaker 7: You act like no one could ever understand your mind.
38:22
Speaker 7: But the truth is you're basic. You're a text bookcase
38:26
Speaker 7: of insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable, your
38:30
Speaker 7: motives are shallow. You are not profound. You're pathetic. You
38:36
Speaker 7: aren't special or deep, not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever
38:41
Speaker 7: get it twisted again. No one is scared of you today.
38:47
Speaker 7: No one is intimidated by you, no one is impressed
38:49
Speaker 7: by you. No one thinks that you are important. You
38:54
Speaker 7: orchestrated this like you thought you were God. Now look
38:57
Speaker 7: at you, begging a courtroom for scraps. You spent months preparing,
39:02
Speaker 7: and still all it took was my sister and a sheath.
39:06
Speaker 7: You work so hard to see them dangerous, but real
39:09
Speaker 7: control doesn't have to prove itself.
39:11
Speaker 1: I just want to stand up and cheer right now.
39:13
Speaker 1: I want to cheer this woman. And I know I've
39:16
Speaker 1: got other victim impact statements for you to hear. I
39:20
Speaker 1: just want to give you one more little bit of
39:24
Speaker 1: this girl. I'm telling you Olivia Gonsolves. And if this
39:27
Speaker 1: is any tiny example, a tiny example of what her
39:33
Speaker 1: sister killer, gonslves was like I'm in She would have
39:37
Speaker 1: set the world on fire.
39:39
Speaker 7: Listen, the truth is the scariest part about you. It's
39:43
Speaker 7: how painfully average you turned out to be. The truth
39:47
Speaker 7: is as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.
39:58
Speaker 7: Let me be very clear, don't ever try to convince
40:02
Speaker 7: yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name
40:05
Speaker 7: out loud. You thought I see through you. You want
40:11
Speaker 7: the truth, Here's the one you'll hate the most. If
40:14
Speaker 7: you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the middle
40:18
Speaker 7: of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have kicked
40:21
Speaker 7: your fucking ass.
40:23
Speaker 14: Thank you, thank you.
40:39
Speaker 7: I don't know a location.
40:44
Speaker 6: I don't know what.
40:50
Speaker 1: She's not working up. My man in the house was
40:56
Speaker 1: life plus Live, plus Live plus live run consecutively. That's
41:01
Speaker 1: what coburger got today. Many people thought that a jury
41:05
Speaker 1: should at least be given the choice of the death penalty.
41:10
Speaker 1: That did not happen, over the objections of about half
41:15
Speaker 1: the victims' families. Joscott Morgan, I want you and the
41:20
Speaker 1: rest of our panel to listen to what Olivia Gonsova said.
41:24
Speaker 1: She says, just because you took an online IQ test.
41:29
Speaker 1: You think you're brilliant, man, Okay, that that hurt. You're
41:35
Speaker 1: a wanna be and you're just basic. You're basic, you know,
41:39
Speaker 1: like a car that doesn't have any upgrades on it.
41:43
Speaker 1: It's just like plastic on wheels, That's what she's saying.
41:48
Speaker 1: And all this time Coburger thought he was so subed.
41:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, he did. He thought he was a legend in
41:52
Speaker 4: his own mind. And you know, you can see that
41:55
Speaker 4: that's demonstrated in academia, Nancy. This idea that he went
41:59
Speaker 4: to WSU and he you know, first off, he treats
42:05
Speaker 4: all of his students, those that he's a TA for
42:09
Speaker 4: like garbage, particularly the women. I think that's kind of
42:12
Speaker 4: significant in this case. And then those that are in
42:15
Speaker 4: a position of authority over him, Nancy, he's only one
42:20
Speaker 4: he's only one semester into a doctoral program. Let's face it.
42:24
Speaker 4: In that position, you're lower than pond'scum at that point
42:28
Speaker 4: in time, you have no voice in that environment. You're
42:32
Speaker 4: there to work and do what you're told to do.
42:34
Speaker 4: And I don't think that it would balance out in
42:36
Speaker 4: his mind. I think that for a long time he
42:38
Speaker 4: thought that he was the smartest person in the room,
42:41
Speaker 4: and he failed miserably. I love the fact that she
42:44
Speaker 4: uses term basic that he thought that he was some
42:47
Speaker 4: kind of superstar.
42:48
Speaker 15: I don't know.
42:49
Speaker 4: For how long now, I've had people that have approached
42:52
Speaker 4: me that have said, oh, well, you know, he took
42:55
Speaker 4: these classes in college and he was exposed to this
42:59
Speaker 4: and that. But you know what, I watched NASCAR on
43:01
Speaker 4: Sunday afternoon. Doesn't make me a damn Nascar driver, you know.
43:05
Speaker 4: And that's about the extent of it. He has no
43:08
Speaker 4: experience in forensics whatsoever. And yeah, he was able to
43:12
Speaker 4: clean up after himself, but in the end, the science
43:15
Speaker 4: got him. He's not that bright, you know.
43:18
Speaker 1: Doctor Dwayne Hendrix is with us. He is former Associate
43:21
Speaker 1: Warden MDC Brooklyn, former Senior warden with the US Department
43:26
Speaker 1: of Justice with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He founded
43:29
Speaker 1: the New Daylight Foundation. He's the author of who Are
43:32
Speaker 1: You See It? Say It Sees It? Doctor Hendrix, you've
43:36
Speaker 1: seen it all, as have many of us on the panel.
43:40
Speaker 1: Why do defendants think they know everything? And then they're
43:45
Speaker 1: so angry when somebody says you took an online IQ test?
43:50
Speaker 1: Get over it?
43:51
Speaker 12: Well, Nancy. He appears and I'm not a psychologist by profession,
43:55
Speaker 12: but I think he's a sociopath. And for some reason,
43:59
Speaker 12: I agree what Professor Scott talked about, you know, thinking,
44:03
Speaker 12: you know, some of the thoughts about him, you know,
44:05
Speaker 12: being the smartest person in the room, thought he controlled everything.
44:09
Speaker 12: And now he's been exposed for what he truly is
44:12
Speaker 12: by the fact that he didn't say anything today at.
44:14
Speaker 15: The Cenising hearing.
44:15
Speaker 12: He didn't apologize, he didn't take any responsibility for his actions.
44:21
Speaker 1: And I'm projects, did you not hear me talking about
44:24
Speaker 1: the pet lizard that just goes we need to talk
44:29
Speaker 1: to it. That's coburger. What do you think he's going
44:32
Speaker 1: to say, I'm sorry I did.
44:34
Speaker 12: No, No, I didn't think that. But but I have
44:37
Speaker 12: a concerned about where if he's going to have I
44:40
Speaker 12: don't know if he's had a cell has a cell
44:41
Speaker 12: mate just yet, but I think the fact that he
44:45
Speaker 12: probably does want to be more famous, he does want
44:47
Speaker 12: to continue this conversation, I'm very concerned that he'll probably
44:51
Speaker 12: reoffend again, especially if they don't get a hold of
44:55
Speaker 12: his whatever his mental issues are. And I'm not sure
44:59
Speaker 12: where they're gonna house him once he gets to that
45:01
Speaker 12: maximum security prison.
45:02
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a medical diagnosis for this.
45:05
Speaker 1: I think he's just a straight up ahole.
45:08
Speaker 12: I would agree with that, And I do believe that
45:11
Speaker 12: he's going to reoffend again because I think he wants
45:14
Speaker 12: to keep his name in the papers, his name in
45:16
Speaker 12: the light. And depending on where they house him and
45:20
Speaker 12: who they house him with, is going to determine whether
45:23
Speaker 12: he is either going to reoffend or if he's going
45:26
Speaker 12: to be harmed in some way. He may end up
45:28
Speaker 12: being a victim of homicide himself there in the state
45:31
Speaker 12: of Idaho.
45:32
Speaker 1: Oh Hendrix, Hendrix, Hendrix, my poor naive doctor, Dwayne Hendrix.
45:38
Speaker 1: How many times do we hear people say there'll be
45:40
Speaker 1: prison justice. When is their prison justice? I've known of.
45:44
Speaker 1: I can count on one hand the number of times
45:48
Speaker 1: a killer has been killed behind bars because of what
45:52
Speaker 1: he did. There was one Catholic priest who was killed
45:57
Speaker 1: because one of his molested victims happened to be in
46:00
Speaker 1: that facility and killed him. There aren't that many cases
46:04
Speaker 1: of prison justice. There's a lot of fights, and there's
46:07
Speaker 1: a lot of murders, but not in the name of
46:09
Speaker 1: prison justice. So can we just put that myth to
46:12
Speaker 1: bad Hendrix.
46:13
Speaker 4: No, I won't.
46:14
Speaker 12: I respect your opinion, Nancy, but but this is who
46:18
Speaker 12: he is because remember I always say, there's two things
46:20
Speaker 12: you don't want to be in prison, one informant, one
46:22
Speaker 12: as a sex offender. But the third is the category
46:25
Speaker 12: he fits himself in. Inmates don't like inmates who harmed women.
46:30
Speaker 12: And he killed three women.
46:32
Speaker 1: Since you know that, doctor Hendricks, name me three people,
46:38
Speaker 1: just three, we'll just start with three and that have
46:40
Speaker 1: been murdered behind bars to get back at them for
46:43
Speaker 1: what they did.
46:45
Speaker 12: Said, what was the Jeffrey Dahmer. I believe that was one.
46:49
Speaker 12: I can't name the other two.
46:50
Speaker 1: Yep, that's one that was on my list.
46:52
Speaker 12: Yeah, Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't have the other two, but
46:56
Speaker 12: I guarantee you.
46:58
Speaker 1: The other two. But guy was on my list. Okay, yeah, right, Yeah,
47:03
Speaker 1: they're out there, but I don't know their names. You
47:05
Speaker 1: sound like one of the defendants that get on the
47:07
Speaker 1: stand under my cross examination and try to blame somebody else.
47:10
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, what's their name? I don't know what
47:12
Speaker 1: they look like. I don't know because they're not any
47:16
Speaker 1: there's not any you got father John Gogan, he was
47:20
Speaker 1: sixty eight. He was convicted of child molestation and he
47:24
Speaker 1: was murdered behind bars by Joseph Druce out of rage
47:30
Speaker 1: at what the father had done. And the assailant was
47:36
Speaker 1: a victim of child molestation. So that's two two in
47:42
Speaker 1: history that we can think of. So don't count on
47:45
Speaker 1: prison justice. We should meet out justice, the court should
47:50
Speaker 1: meet out justice. We shouldn't rely on inmates to meet
47:55
Speaker 1: out justice. Okay, that's too Hendrix. I'm going to give
47:59
Speaker 1: you a time out while you can google and find
48:02
Speaker 1: out if there's anybody else. In the meantime, you've heard
48:07
Speaker 1: sister gunsolves Olivia. Now take a listen to mother and gounsovs.
48:13
Speaker 1: I love this woman.
48:14
Speaker 10: You are entering a place where no one will care
48:16
Speaker 10: who you are and no one will ever respect you.
48:20
Speaker 1: You will be.
48:20
Speaker 10: Forgotten, discarded, used and erased. You will always be remembered
48:26
Speaker 10: as a loser, an absolute failure. And when those prison
48:30
Speaker 10: doors slams shut behind you, I hope that sound echoes
48:33
Speaker 10: in your heart for the rest of your meaningless days.
48:37
Speaker 10: I hope it reminds you of what we all already know.
48:40
Speaker 10: You're nothing. May you continue to live your life in misery.
48:45
Speaker 10: You are officially the property of the state of Idaho,
48:49
Speaker 10: where your fellow inmates are anxiously awaiting your arrival. But
48:53
Speaker 10: it's okay because they're there to help you.
48:56
Speaker 1: And she didn't leave it there. She sent Coburger a
49:02
Speaker 1: message from her youngest daughter.
49:05
Speaker 10: Listen quick message from our youngest daughter, Aubrey wanted to
49:10
Speaker 10: see you may have received a's in high school and college,
49:16
Speaker 10: but you're going to be getting big d's in prison.
49:22
Speaker 2: Thank you.
49:27
Speaker 1: Joining me is Susan Hendrix, who has been in the
49:30
Speaker 1: courtroom throughout covering this. Today you heard the mom of
49:35
Speaker 1: Killi Gorinsavas speak. She sends a message from the little
49:40
Speaker 1: sister Aubrey, and Aubrey says Coburger, you may have received
49:44
Speaker 1: a's in high school and college, but you're going to
49:47
Speaker 1: be getting big d's in prison. Yeah, okay, you don't
49:52
Speaker 1: have to spell that out for me. What was the
49:53
Speaker 1: reaction in the courtroom to that, speaking of prison justice.
49:57
Speaker 6: I was kind of looking around and there were, of
49:59
Speaker 6: course offices.
50:00
Speaker 5: In there, and there was kind of a truckle and
50:02
Speaker 5: take it aback and then applause. If there was a
50:04
Speaker 5: masterclass on how to get to a psychopathic sociopath.
50:10
Speaker 6: It was a consolvist family.
50:11
Speaker 5: It's the only time in court because I could directly
50:14
Speaker 5: see kind of his jawline only about twenty feet from
50:17
Speaker 5: Cobra or thirty feet that he clenched it when she
50:20
Speaker 5: talked about how he treased his students and how he's
50:24
Speaker 5: nothing in a paraphrasing here, it got to him and
50:27
Speaker 5: I saw it.
50:27
Speaker 1: Guys, we also heard from Xana Kernodle's sister Jasmine, listen.
50:33
Speaker 17: Because the truth is, you don't deserve power over my feelings,
50:38
Speaker 17: in my words or me. In the end, I realized
50:43
Speaker 17: this woman isn't about you. It's about justice for Xanna, Ethan, Kaylee,
50:49
Speaker 17: and Maddie. It's about honoring the beautiful, beautiful people they
50:53
Speaker 17: were and still are in God's eyes. Xanna didn't get
50:56
Speaker 17: the future she deserved.
50:59
Speaker 1: She won't be the.
50:59
Speaker 17: Maid of owning the cool on to my future children.
51:05
Speaker 17: I'll never hear her laugh or see her light upper
51:08
Speaker 17: room over again, but I will carry her with me
51:12
Speaker 17: for the rest of my life. I will live in
51:15
Speaker 17: her honor, fight to be the best kind of woman
51:18
Speaker 17: and someone she's proud of, to make sure the world
51:21
Speaker 17: never forgets who she was.
51:23
Speaker 1: That was so poignant, Cheryl McCollum. When the sister is
51:29
Speaker 1: describing how Xanna will never be her maid of honor,
51:33
Speaker 1: I mean, and it makes you think, it evokes all
51:36
Speaker 1: the future events that will never.
51:39
Speaker 8: Happen, when she describes the future events that are never
51:42
Speaker 8: going to happen again. The families live with this loss
51:46
Speaker 8: every single day, and some of those events are going
51:49
Speaker 8: to be so powerful when she does get married and
51:52
Speaker 8: her sister there, when she has her children and her
51:55
Speaker 8: sister's not there. But you know, just those general days,
51:59
Speaker 8: just an average Wednesday, that you can't call and talk
52:02
Speaker 8: about something funny that happened, or call and say I
52:05
Speaker 8: felt the baby, or you know, I picked out flowers,
52:09
Speaker 8: whatever it is. Those are such powerful moments that will
52:15
Speaker 8: be tarnished.
52:16
Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl, you just gave me a flashback when
52:19
Speaker 1: I found out I was gonna have the twins, right,
52:24
Speaker 1: I was sent to Virginia Tech, remember the shooting at
52:28
Speaker 1: Virginia Tech, And I didn't have anybody to tell. I
52:34
Speaker 1: got out of the car, pulled over to the side
52:36
Speaker 1: of the interstate and call my sister in California. And
52:42
Speaker 1: I was standing on the side of the interstate and
52:46
Speaker 1: that's who I had to tell and that will never happen.
52:51
Speaker 1: That will never happen for Jasmine. And we also heard
52:56
Speaker 1: from Xana's stepfather Randy, and you could tell he has
53:01
Speaker 1: been through hell.
53:04
Speaker 3: You man, I don't know what my limits are here,
53:09
Speaker 3: but I'm really struggling, dude, I am struggling, so I
53:13
Speaker 3: want to I want to just be out in the
53:16
Speaker 3: woods with you, just so I can teach you about
53:18
Speaker 3: loss and pain. I'm not I belive.
53:21
Speaker 15: I love God.
53:22
Speaker 3: I wouldn't take your life. That's up to him, but
53:25
Speaker 3: I guarantee you you are weak God. I would just
53:30
Speaker 3: give a moment, man, five minutes out of the woods.
53:35
Speaker 3: Oh man, you're gonna go to Hell. I know people
53:40
Speaker 3: believe in other stuff. You're You're evil. There's no place
53:44
Speaker 3: for you in heaven. You took our children. You are
53:49
Speaker 3: gonna suffer.
53:50
Speaker 2: Man.
53:51
Speaker 3: I'm shaking because I want to reach out to you.
53:54
Speaker 3: But I just I hope you feel my energy. Okay,
53:57
Speaker 3: go to hell.
54:07
Speaker 1: For one moment, I thought he was gonna leave across
54:09
Speaker 1: that lectern and get coburger by the neck. We also
54:13
Speaker 1: heard words from Dylan Mortenson. She and Bethany have been
54:18
Speaker 1: attacked so brutally and oppressed. Since the murders, they're lucky
54:23
Speaker 1: to be alive today. Let's know what, Dylan Mortenson relayed.
54:28
Speaker 11: I was barely nineteen when he did this. We had
54:31
Speaker 11: just celebrated my birthday at the end of September. I
54:35
Speaker 11: should have been figuring out who I was. I should
54:38
Speaker 11: have been having the cold experience and starting to establish
54:42
Speaker 11: my future. Instead, I was forced to learn how to
54:47
Speaker 11: survive the unimaginable. I'm couldn't be alone. I had to
54:55
Speaker 11: sleep in my mom's bed because I was too terrified
54:58
Speaker 11: to close my eyes, Terrified that if I blinked, someone
55:01
Speaker 11: might be there. I made escape plans everywhere I went.
55:07
Speaker 11: If something happens, how do I get out? What can
55:11
Speaker 11: I use to defend myself? Who can help? Then there
55:16
Speaker 11: are the panic attacks. The guy that slam into me
55:20
Speaker 11: like a tsunami out of nowhere. I can't breathe, I
55:26
Speaker 11: can't think.
55:27
Speaker 18: I can't stop shaking. All I can do is scream.
55:36
Speaker 1: It just is like a stab to hear Dylan Mortonson
55:40
Speaker 1: describing what she's still living through the panic attacks where
55:44
Speaker 1: she can't breathe, she said, it feels like a tsunami
55:47
Speaker 1: wave hitting her she can't stop shaking. All she can
55:50
Speaker 1: do is scream it's real, There's nothing wrong with her,
55:55
Speaker 1: this is normal. This is trauma that she may never
55:58
Speaker 1: get over. Listen to more of Dylan Morton's.
56:03
Speaker 11: People call me strong, they say I'm a survivor, but
56:07
Speaker 11: they don't see what my new reality looks like.
56:10
Speaker 18: They don't see the.
56:11
Speaker 11: Panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the way I scan
56:16
Speaker 11: every room I enter, the way I flinch, it sudden sounds.
56:22
Speaker 11: They don't know how heavy it is to carry so
56:25
Speaker 11: much pain and still be expected to keep going.
56:27
Speaker 18: And that's because of him. He still boards on me.
56:32
Speaker 18: I may never get back.
56:35
Speaker 11: He took the version of me who didn't go instantly
56:38
Speaker 11: ask what if that happens again? What if next time?
56:43
Speaker 11: I don't survive?
56:44
Speaker 1: Susan Henry's joining us from the courthouse. Susan explain to
56:49
Speaker 1: everyone how she came across as she was giving her
56:53
Speaker 1: impact statement. Oh that was.
56:55
Speaker 5: Heart wrenching, it was she her heart was bleeding. She
56:59
Speaker 5: was being honest about her life has been torture ever since.
57:03
Speaker 5: She thinks, when will I be next? Look what you
57:05
Speaker 5: took from me? These were my friends and this was
57:08
Speaker 5: the only time I looked over Brian Koberger's mother was there,
57:11
Speaker 5: no sign of his father. Two sisters, they were wiping tears.
57:14
Speaker 5: They connected with her. They felt that and I saw it.
57:17
Speaker 5: But I feel for her. You could tell that it
57:20
Speaker 5: took everything, but she had to be there. She had
57:22
Speaker 5: to read that statement and just saying how it's People
57:26
Speaker 5: expect me to go on and I don't know how to.
57:28
Speaker 1: You know, doctor Chavon Scott, he's joining us renowned psychotherapist's
57:33
Speaker 1: best selling author, doctor Chevon. It's hard for people that
57:38
Speaker 1: haven't lived through it, and people shouldn't understand it. I
57:41
Speaker 1: don't want them to have to understand it, but this
57:44
Speaker 1: is real. I've seen victims literally shaking all over when
57:51
Speaker 1: they had to take the witness stand and recount what
57:54
Speaker 1: happened to them, what they lived through. It's brutal and
58:00
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, anything can trigger it.
58:04
Speaker 13: Yeah, we're really talking about severe, severe, post traumatic stress.
58:09
Speaker 1: And that changes the brain.
58:13
Speaker 13: I've lived through it and I completely get it.
58:16
Speaker 1: The brain can just break.
58:18
Speaker 13: We can be emotionally shattered, and we're never the same
58:22
Speaker 13: people we would have been if we hadn't have gone
58:26
Speaker 13: through something like that, and in treatment. We certainly work
58:30
Speaker 13: with survivors. We do our best to try to help
58:34
Speaker 13: them come to some degree of healing, but the world
58:38
Speaker 13: is never safe for them again, and they're never the same,
58:41
Speaker 13: and they move through it completely differently than they would
58:45
Speaker 13: have if they'd not been through that trauma.
58:47
Speaker 1: And I guarantee you, Sharyl McCollum, just her testifying or
58:51
Speaker 1: speaking in court today, we'll make it all come back.
58:55
Speaker 1: And you and I have had to beg witnesses to testify.
58:59
Speaker 1: I beg them because they don't want to relive it,
59:03
Speaker 1: even verbally.
59:04
Speaker 8: She even said, I'm shaking right now she's having to
59:08
Speaker 8: face him. But let me say this, this is my
59:10
Speaker 8: prayer for her. With all the panic attacks and the
59:13
Speaker 8: escape plans that she puts into place, and her life
59:17
Speaker 8: is torture. She faced that devil today and I hope
59:21
Speaker 8: she understands the power in that.
59:25
Speaker 1: Guys, we've all heard the name Dylan Mortenson, but the
59:29
Speaker 1: other name, the other girl that lived. Finally, she tells
59:36
Speaker 1: us what she told police, what happened that night. A
59:39
Speaker 1: few answers. Listen.
59:41
Speaker 19: When I first woke up one morning, I had no
59:44
Speaker 19: idea what happened. I woke up around seven with a
59:47
Speaker 19: terrible toothache. So I called my dad, who is a dentist,
59:51
Speaker 19: and he asked what I should do. He told me
59:54
Speaker 19: to take Adville, so I did, and I went back
59:56
Speaker 19: to sleep. I was still out of it and still
59:59
Speaker 19: didn't what happened. If I had known, I of course
1:00:02
Speaker 19: would have called nine one right away. I still carry
1:00:05
Speaker 19: so much regret and guilt for not knowing what had
1:00:08
Speaker 19: happened in not calling right away, even though I understand
1:00:12
Speaker 19: it wouldn't have changed anything, not even if the paramedics
1:00:15
Speaker 19: had been right outside the door.
1:00:18
Speaker 1: You know Greg Morris, veteran defense attorney, but today I
1:00:20
Speaker 1: think we're on the same side. For once or now,
1:00:23
Speaker 1: lawyer at Morse Legal and author of the Untested on Amazon,
1:00:29
Speaker 1: Greg that I had no shrink. But I know what that is.
1:00:32
Speaker 1: It's survivor's guilt. And she is explaining why she didn't
1:00:37
Speaker 1: immediately call nine one one while there were several hours delayed.
1:00:40
Speaker 1: Because she's been attacked so much in the media. People
1:00:44
Speaker 1: have even written online inanely I think she was part
1:00:49
Speaker 1: of it. She was not part of it. She just
1:00:53
Speaker 1: explained what happened, and who would have imagined it was
1:00:56
Speaker 1: a toothache.
1:00:57
Speaker 16: You know, people that don't experience things have the biggest
1:01:00
Speaker 16: mouths that speak from ignorance, and that's all that is.
1:01:04
Speaker 16: I hope that she can put that burden down because
1:01:07
Speaker 16: the only person responsible for anything that happened that day
1:01:10
Speaker 16: was Brian Kolberger. Not one human in that house had
1:01:14
Speaker 16: anything to do with it. They didn't cause it to last.
1:01:17
Speaker 16: And it's unfortunate that she lived. And she has to
1:01:20
Speaker 16: live with that too, right, Her friends and the therapists
1:01:23
Speaker 16: and on the panel know this. I mean, she lived,
1:01:27
Speaker 16: like you said, survivor's guilt. Her friends are dead, and
1:01:29
Speaker 16: now people are attacking her for she should have done X?
1:01:33
Speaker 16: How could you not call nine on one? And it's
1:01:35
Speaker 16: you know, I think people it's a natural instinct. They
1:01:38
Speaker 16: filter logical rational choices through trauma, and when trauma happens,
1:01:45
Speaker 16: logical rational choices don't. Usually that's the whole point, and
1:01:49
Speaker 16: that's what's difficult, And it's if you're going to say
1:01:51
Speaker 16: anything negative about someone like that, you're just a loser,
1:01:54
Speaker 16: plain and simple. And if you're on a computer doing it,
1:01:56
Speaker 16: you're like a loser's loser.
1:01:58
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, Morse. Yeah, Now Morris is talking
1:02:01
Speaker 1: about survivor's guilt. Everybody on this panel has seen it
1:02:04
Speaker 1: in the courtroom, people that live. But listen to what now.
1:02:07
Speaker 1: Bethany is having a friend read this for her in court.
1:02:11
Speaker 1: I want you to listen to what she, Bethany relays.
1:02:14
Speaker 19: I still think about this every day.
1:02:15
Speaker 15: Why me? Why did I get.
1:02:18
Speaker 19: To live and not them? For the longest time, I
1:02:22
Speaker 19: could not even look at their families without feeling sick
1:02:24
Speaker 19: with guilt. I did not know what to say or
1:02:28
Speaker 19: what to do. I was terrified that my presence just
1:02:30
Speaker 19: made their pain worse, and I was still here when
1:02:33
Speaker 19: their kid, their siblings, and their friends. Their loved ones
1:02:37
Speaker 19: should have been here instead.
1:02:39
Speaker 1: Their loved ones should have been here instead, and not me.
1:02:44
Speaker 1: She's going to carry this with her the rest of
1:02:46
Speaker 1: her life while Coburger mates the made for TV movie
1:02:49
Speaker 1: behind Bars listen to her suffering.
1:02:52
Speaker 19: I slept in my parents' room for almost a year.
1:02:55
Speaker 19: I made them double lock every door, set an alarm,
1:03:00
Speaker 19: check everywhere in the room just in case someone was hiding.
1:03:03
Speaker 19: And I still check my room every night before and
1:03:06
Speaker 19: I double lock it. I have not slept through a
1:03:09
Speaker 19: single night since this happened. I constantly wake up in panics,
1:03:13
Speaker 19: terrified someone who's breaking in, or someone is here to
1:03:17
Speaker 19: hurt me, or I'm about to lose someone else that
1:03:19
Speaker 19: I love.
1:03:20
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. Final thought.
1:03:22
Speaker 8: I think the courage and grace and dignity that we
1:03:25
Speaker 8: saw today with every single person that took the podium
1:03:29
Speaker 8: was unbelievable. But I also have to say one pretty
1:03:34
Speaker 8: gangster move with Ethan's family who didn't show because Brian
1:03:40
Speaker 8: Coberg didn't deserfe it.
1:03:42
Speaker 1: Greg Morris, you and I have saying countless victim impact statements,
1:03:47
Speaker 1: but I've got to say the ones today in that
1:03:49
Speaker 1: Coburger court room, and well, they weren't like anything I've
1:03:53
Speaker 1: ever seen before. But I still believe this case should
1:03:58
Speaker 1: have gone to a jury trial. I will always say
1:04:01
Speaker 1: that because for the rest of their lives, and just
1:04:05
Speaker 1: admit it. More so, don't fight with me about this.
1:04:07
Speaker 1: You know, the rest of these victims families lives. They're
1:04:11
Speaker 1: going to wonder, They're going to wake up in the
1:04:14
Speaker 1: middle of the night. They may be driving down the
1:04:16
Speaker 1: road when it hit some What was the last thing
1:04:19
Speaker 1: she saw, What was the last thing he felt? Did
1:04:22
Speaker 1: he think about me before he died?
1:04:25
Speaker 17: Well?
1:04:25
Speaker 1: I ever see them again. They'll never have any of
1:04:30
Speaker 1: those answers. Coburger is never going to answer if he
1:04:33
Speaker 1: did say anything, which he didn't, it would be a lie.
1:04:36
Speaker 1: And the only way they would have found answers is
1:04:39
Speaker 1: by a trial.
1:04:41
Speaker 16: Well I don't know if they would have found those
1:04:43
Speaker 16: answers though, and the prosecution could have absolutely made that
1:04:47
Speaker 16: a part of the police so there actually was a
1:04:49
Speaker 16: measure of control that the prosecution controlled. But a trial
1:04:53
Speaker 16: is not going to, unfortunately, answer a lot of those questions,
1:04:58
Speaker 16: and the death penalty.
1:04:59
Speaker 1: Would all the questions, all the questions about what happened
1:05:05
Speaker 1: that night, whose room did he enter, who was killed first?
1:05:09
Speaker 1: Did this one hear that one screaming? What did they
1:05:12
Speaker 1: live through? I still wonder that now, after all these years,
1:05:17
Speaker 1: what did Keith live through? I don't really know what happened?
1:05:22
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's something that it happens the rest
1:05:24
Speaker 1: of your life.
1:05:25
Speaker 16: Morse having been in this situation with a client who
1:05:30
Speaker 16: was a family member blamed for a crime Mom killed
1:05:33
Speaker 16: dad and blamed the son. Thankfully the son had me
1:05:35
Speaker 16: as a lawyer, and to go through and you know,
1:05:39
Speaker 16: you're the victim of trauma. There is no right answer
1:05:43
Speaker 16: there's nothing that heals that. So you try this, you
1:05:45
Speaker 16: try that, you think this will give relief, but a
1:05:48
Speaker 16: trial will not one thing.
1:05:50
Speaker 1: I know.
1:05:50
Speaker 16: In sex cases and murder cases, you have to be
1:05:53
Speaker 16: very delicate on how you we get depositions in Florida.
1:05:57
Speaker 15: In criminal cases, you have to be.
1:05:59
Speaker 16: Very delicate how you litigate a case when there's a
1:06:01
Speaker 16: victim and those two type things are a victim's family,
1:06:04
Speaker 16: because you will lose any opportunity to do something decent
1:06:07
Speaker 16: for your client in resolving the case. So a trial
1:06:10
Speaker 16: will probably only hurt because you're going to get the
1:06:13
Speaker 16: horror with maybe one or two of those answers.
1:06:16
Speaker 1: I've never heard an actual victim state a trial only
1:06:22
Speaker 1: hurt that Scott Morgan went about it.
1:06:25
Speaker 4: You know, Nancy, we've been covering this case since it
1:06:29
Speaker 4: happened all this time, and I've got to tell you,
1:06:31
Speaker 4: there's this one these one moments that I never would
1:06:35
Speaker 4: have counted on that are going to be etched into
1:06:38
Speaker 4: my brain. And that's the sound of applause in the courtroom.
1:06:43
Speaker 4: I never expected it. I know you've handled a lot
1:06:45
Speaker 4: of cases, you've been in court, and I'm sure you've
1:06:48
Speaker 4: heard applause before. But the fact that the judge gave
1:06:51
Speaker 4: them that kind of latitude in there, it kind of,
1:06:55
Speaker 4: you know, reinforced these comments that the families are making
1:07:00
Speaker 4: relative to Coburger as he's sitting there and everybody's cheering
1:07:03
Speaker 4: on and it's almost like you could feel, you could
1:07:06
Speaker 4: feel this momentum building along the way. And I know
1:07:10
Speaker 4: that that's very little recompense after everything that has occurred,
1:07:14
Speaker 4: but that one moment, those moments that were captured in there,
1:07:19
Speaker 4: of the gallery of plodding in there, these impact statements,
1:07:25
Speaker 4: it goes to reinforce that all of the people on
1:07:28
Speaker 4: social media that are out there, that they come up
1:07:30
Speaker 4: with these crackpot conspiracy theories, the people in that courtroom
1:07:34
Speaker 4: they're behind these families, They're behind these victims, they support them,
1:07:38
Speaker 4: and I think that that's what should be remembered.
1:07:40
Speaker 1: Here as we close tonight. I know that there will
1:07:46
Speaker 1: never be peace, There will never be peace or closure
1:07:52
Speaker 1: for these victims' families, but I do pray for them
1:07:58
Speaker 1: with the knowledge that the victims are now resting in peace.
1:08:07
Speaker 1: Good Night, friend,