Latest / Drawn of History / Andrew Huberman on Nicotine_ Caffeine_ and the Biology of Addiction(M4A_128K)

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Andrew Huberman on Nicotine_ Caffeine_ and the Biology of Addiction(M4A_128K) · Drawn of History

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan experience.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: So nicotine, for instance, people think, is it a cognitive enhancer?
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: It is if you don't do it all the time
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: every day. But if you, you know, I talk about
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: nicotine and it's, you know, it's pretty habit forming. But
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: if you take it before or after learning something, even after, right, before,
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: during or after learning something, and you're not highly saturated
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: with nicotine already, yeah, you'll enhance your ability to learn
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: that thing. The problem is people are just popping them
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: all day long, every day, just to get to baseline.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: They're for fun. We drink caffeine to get to baseline.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: We take nicotine to get to baseline. Are you on
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: the nicotine?
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: I take them. But I wanted to ask you this
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: about addiction. Is there a biological component to addiction? And
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: one of the reasons why I ask is because I
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: take these. Tucker Carlson sends me these Alps. I like these.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: They taste different than the other ones I've had. I've
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: tried athletic nicotine, zinc. I've not tried the else.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: I like athletic nicotine. That's probably my favorite, like the
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: threes because it's mild.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: The little three milligrams. My point is I do it
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: all the time and I take them before shows. I
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: like to suck on them before I go on stage.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: But when I went on vacation for 10 days, I
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: didn't bring any on purpose. So I was like, let's
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: see what this is like.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: And I've heard so many people say that they have
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: horrible cravings. They can't tolerate it. They go nuts. They
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: just need nicotine. And I'm sitting there, like, on day two, like,
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: waiting for it to come on. Nope, nothing. I just,
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: I'm not on nicotine.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're a bit of a mutant, too.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Like, I mean, just because you're so, it sounds to
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: me like you're so familiar with discomfort. You may not
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: even register that, like, a mild, tiny bit of withdrawal.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: But it is interesting, you know, because if I don't
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: drink caffeine, like, life is a lot less interesting to me.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: And I've been drinking a shit ton of caffeine. I mean,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I've got a picture. I'm half Argentine. So there's a
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: picture of me on my grandfather's lap drinking mate from
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: a gourd when I'm like three years old in my
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Spider-Man pajamas. You know, people on the internet, they go, oh,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I don't believe it. I probably drink 800 milligrams of
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: caffeine a day. And I'm fine. But if I don't
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: drink caffeine, I'm just like, oh, man. I don't know
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: if I'm addicted in the classic sense. Like, I'm not
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: going to go rob old ladies to get caffeine. I'm not...
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to harm myself with it.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: If anything, it shows that it can offset dementia. I mean,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: the new data basically say up to about 400 milligrams
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: per day. Caffeine is great for the brain, for the body.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: You know, it's people have anxiety. It can be problematic.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: But you just might not have. I mean, you may
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: just naturally make a lot of acetylcholine. And so when
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: you don't take nicotine, maybe you just rebound really fast.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's it. I mean, I do
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: take nootropics that might have an effect on it.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Oh, definitely.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: But I didn't bring any with me when I was
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: on vacation. Amazing. I just brought vitamins.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: No cigars? Nope.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: No cigars.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: And what kind of vacation was it?
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: It was fun. I enjoyed it. It was just a
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: family vacation.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: But the point is I was waiting for this thing
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: that everybody told me was coming, and it never showed
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: up at all. There was zero. I mean, it wasn't hard.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: It wasn't a thing. It's a good experiment to do, right?
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: And I do sometimes during the day, like I'll wake
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: up in the morning and say, I'm not going to
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: eat them today. I'm not going to take any nicotine powder.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: But I always wonder, like, is it just I got lucky?
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: Like some people, they literally cannot drink. Alcoholism is in
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: their genetics. They have families that are alcoholics. That's a
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: real thing. And they just can't handle it.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the guys who started AA talked about
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: an allergy. They described it as like an allergy. Like
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: some people, when they drink alcohol, their first– I had
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: a friend like this from childhood, became an alcoholic, not surprisingly.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: And when he drank the first or second time, he
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: was like, this is how I'm meant to feel.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: Oh boy.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Like he felt like it completed something in him. I
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: don't feel that way with alcohol. I don't drink, but
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I could without problems. You know, you're sort of on
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: off now, right?
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Like occasional drink. I don't get drunk anymore. I'll have
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: a drink or two, but I don't get drunk anymore.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Getting drunk?
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, no. When I took the
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: eight months off, I didn't even miss alcohol. But then
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: I went to dinner, had a margarita. I was like, ooh,
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: I missed this. This is fun.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: This is nice. But the key is like I just
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: wanted to take some time off and just not feel
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: like shit because my problem was I was stacking too
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: many days where I was having a drink or two
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: on the podcast and then I was having a drink
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: or two at the club. And then, you know, you
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: do multiple days of that and you feel like shit.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: And it was like affecting my workouts. And I said,
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: this is stupid. Let me see how it feels. And
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: I didn't miss it at all. But when I did
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: have a drink or two, I'm like, okay, I see
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: there is a benefit from a social lubricant aspect. There's
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: a funness to a glass of wine or, you know,
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: a glass of whiskey. But the thing is just understand
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: what you're doing and don't fuck your body up and
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: try to do your best. Take a lot of glutathione,
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: mitigate whatever you're doing to your body by actually consuming alcohol.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: And more likely you don't need as much as you're
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: going to drink. That's the problem. But to have a
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: good time, A couple of drinks, you have a good time. Five,
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: six drinks, it's not really a good time anymore. You're
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: kind of fucking plastered and you sound stupid.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: And nowadays, you know, with cameras and stuff, people say
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: stupid stuff. I mean, I drank in college and I
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: drank after a bit and I just drank less and less. But,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: you know, when I was a junior professor, my girlfriend
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: at the time, like she just had the genetics where
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: she could have a couple of drinks and it and
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: really enjoy it. Just like really enjoy it. And I mean,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I think some people can do that.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: So what are the genetics that would cause someone to
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: be like severely addicted to nicotine? Another one that I
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: hear about all the time is kratom. We had a
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: guy who came and did the podcast and someone had
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: sent us some kratom. One of our guests like had
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: a kratom company. So I'm like, and it was just
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: laying around the kitchen. And he goes, you're not taking that,
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: are you? I go, no, some guy just sent it
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: to me. And he goes, get rid of that shit.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: He goes, it is the fucking hardest thing to kick.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I go, really?
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: And he goes, yeah, I'm on it. It's horrible. He goes,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: it's an awful high. And he goes, and I'm fucking,
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: I'm really struggling to get off of it. And I was,
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: I was kind of stunned. I was like, well, I've
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: taken it before and it didn't seem like it would
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: be that thing. Like a thing that would make you addicted.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: But apparently it's like any other opioid. Like you can
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: get like fully wrapped up in that stuff. So, but
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: what is it about some people and their biology that,
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: that makes them more susceptible to whether it's nicotine or
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: caffeine or whatever it is?
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: It's going to undoubtedly have to do with the genetics
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: that line up the receptors in the brain that lead
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: some people to have a very different experience with one
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: substance versus another. For instance, there's a subset of people,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: about 8% of people, that when they drink alcohol, they
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: experience a much more euphoric high from it. These people
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: tend to recover very easily the next morning. That's independent
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: of tolerance. It tends to run in families. These people
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: are very high susceptibility to severe alcohol use disorder, what
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: you and I know as alcoholism. There are people who
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: take their first drink, as I mentioned before, and are
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: just like, this completes me, right? And those people usually
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: have Certain genetic backgrounds, you know, we don't want to
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: talk about this, but there's certain genetic backgrounds. They probably
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: have high levels of the enzyme that can digest alcohol, right?
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: You know, it can break down alcohol because it is
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: a poison. But if you're breaking it down more quickly,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: maybe it's not impacting your microbiome and your sleep quite
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: as much. And so you can drink a lot more
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: and sleep fine and do fine. And it varies by
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: age too. You know, two glasses of wine at 60
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: feels very different at two glasses of wine at like
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: you know, at 25, as most people will tell you, right?
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: We're just different resilience.
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  Speaker 2: In general, what the data say is that kids who
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: took their first drink really young, like 12, 13, 14,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: are greatly predisposed to alcoholism later. But it's hard to
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: dissociate that from this environmental circumstances around that. Why are
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: they drinking at 12 or 13? you know, I think
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I took my first drink of alcohol. I'm not proud
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: of this at 11, a friend, I won't mention his name,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: went to his house and he goes, Hey, you know,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: my dad's got some, I think it was like wine
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: cooler or something. And we were, and we, we drank
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: them and we got, you know, we got drunk and, uh,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: you know, I was, I wasn't a bad kid, but
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: we got drunk. And, but the earlier you drink, the
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: more susceptible you are to alcoholism, but I never became
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: an alcoholic, but I will tell you that my love
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: of caffeine, my love of energy focus and that sort
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: of thing makes me like about half the population who
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: probably have a decent susceptibility to stimulants. I've never done cocaine,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: I've never done speed, I've never done Adderall or Vyvanse.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: We could talk about stimulants, and in the book I
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: talk about some of the newer stimulants that are still amphetamine-like,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: but a little bit potentially safer.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Do you do anything like modafinil?
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: I don't. I took one modafinil, couldn't sleep for two days.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I'm very, very sensitive to these things. There is a
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: drug that's approved for excessive daytime sleepiness that I took
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: on a trip where I was underslept and I needed
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: to work. I'm called Sunozy. It's a, that's now in
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: phase three for mild attention deficit. And I've taken that
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: and I don't use it often, but I find that
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: it really dials in focus and energy in a way
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: that still allows sleep. And for me, it was much
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: gentler and felt better than Modafinil or Armodafinil.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: For me, the best thing that I've ever discovered for
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: mitigating that feeling of being groggy with sleep deprivation is creatine.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: That definitely helps. The data on creatine for strength- are there.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: The data for creatine on enhancing cognition when mildly sleep-deprived
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: are there. That's really where the powerful data is.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: You can feel it. It is.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Definitely.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Definitely.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a fuel for the phosphocreatine system for
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: the forebrain, the part of your brain that's involved in
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: strategy setting, et cetera. I would say about half, and
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: these are broad numbers, right? These aren't from one study.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: The real expert on all this, by the way, is
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: my colleague, Keith Humphreys at Stanford, and we could talk
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: about some of the interesting things that he's found. But
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: About half the population seems to like sedatives. They like Vicodin.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: They like opioids. I had a tooth surgery a long
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: time ago. They gave me Vicodin. I took half of one.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I never wanted that experience again. But I know people
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: who are like Vicodin. They love Vicodin. They love being sedated.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: They like being sedated. They like being brought down a
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: bit in terms of arousal. Some people like being ramped up.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: And I think one needs to be aware of their
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: genetics and their predisposition for one or the other. Some
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: people like both. But generally, people fall into one or
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: the other category. And I think now that many more
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: people are avoiding alcohol, the ones who say, oh yeah,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: it's easy and I never liked it, people like me,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I think they're probably more of the, you know, they
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: like stimulants. They like caffeine. They like nicotine. They like
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: being up and alert. You don't even need a substance
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: for that. So some people like both, but I think
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: people generally bin into these categories. You asked about kratom.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: So the world expert on this is an amazing guy.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: He was on my podcast. His name is Chris McCurdy.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: He's a professor down in Florida. And man, He has
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: the best take on this. So the community online around
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Kratom is very split. If you put out something about Kratom,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: half of people will say, this stuff is evil. It's opioids.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: This is like OxyContin. Get out of here. The other
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: half will say, this stuff saved me. So you go like,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: what's going on? And whenever I see that, I go,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: there's some interesting biology here, right? There's a sociology there.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: But as a biologist, I'm like, what's the biology? So
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I brought Chris on. He said, here's the deal. In America...
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Pharma companies develop drugs based on bioprospecting. Peptides are a
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: different story, and we can talk about that. But bioprospecting
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: is finding alkaloids and other substances in plants, purifying the substance,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: the alkaloid that gives a specific effect, and developing a drug. Cocaine,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: it comes from the coca plant, obviously, from the coca leaf.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And he said the experience of chewing coca leaf is
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: very different than the experience of cocaine. The experience of the,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I'm going to call it kratom because I know there's
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: another way to pronounce it, but I just feel weird
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: saying it like kratom or something like that. But, you know,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the kratom leaf, he said when people chew the kratom leaf,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: but the leaf, they feel a calm, but also energized.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: It's how you and I would think of like a
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: strong coffee or a yerba. But what's happened in this
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: country is that companies have synthesized pure kratom. They've taken
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: one of the compounds in the kratom leaf and they've,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: isolate it. And now they've made it synthetically. And that
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: leads to a very different experience and addiction potential. And
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: it's so it's incredible because he said, you know, the
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: most protected building in the entire United States, these are
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: his words, not mine, is the Coca-Cola factory.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: He said, well, you know, years ago they had new
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Coke and they took out the flavor that they get
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: all this. They still get all this coca leaf sent
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: to this factory in the United States. It's still going there.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: And then they extract the components that they need to
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: put it into Coca-Cola to this day, this happened today.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: And then we drink Coca-Cola.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: So I'm like, there, so there's, and they use the
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: cocaine they get from it for medical cocaine use.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: That it is.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: Cocaine is approved. It's not schedule one. That's right. It's
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: schedule two as a, as an anesthetic. That's right. So,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Chris really nails it, right? Like so many things in
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: science and medicine, we're saying kratom good, kratom bad. Turns
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: out it's the synthetic kratom product that is bad, highly addictive.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: So when you have those drinks, like what is it,
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: live free? Aren't those, is that the kratom synthetic or
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: is that the plant?
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I think it's the plant derived isolated kratom, which is
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: somewhere in between the two. But this is, but if you,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: you and I would both say, okay, like kids taking cocaine,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: not good. But Chris would say, The coca leaf actually
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: is a very interesting leaf that actually has some, could
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: be a, he'll talk about this as like, oh, it
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: could be an interesting stimulant compound for people. People love it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: It's the same thing with THC. You know, like people
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: will say, oh, you know, let's just get the highest
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: dose of THC into an edible. And then people are,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: they're eating it too fast. They don't know how to
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: gauge their plane of high. And then we hear about
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: certain people having psychosis and this kind of thing. Well,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: what happened, right? When you and I were growing up, Look,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, where I grew up, everyone learned how to
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: smoke a joint and take a bong rip. I'm not
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: suggesting anyone do this, but you knew if you could
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: handle one or a half.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: You learned the hard way.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly. You learned the hard way. I found I didn't
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: like cannabis. But what you didn't do was eat half
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of a cookie that had 200 milligrams of THC and
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: find yourself in a psychotic episode. And so nowadays, when
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: we isolate things and we enrich them and we take
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: them in that isolated form, that's when they get really precarious.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: So that's the story. And by the way, I know
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: people are always coming on here and telling you, you
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: should talk to so-and-so. If you want to talk to
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: someone highly educated on all these compounds, bioprospecting, pharma versus
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: plant medicine, and all of this, Chris McCurdy is your man.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: He is, like I'm paraphrasing here, but he's a savant
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. And he comes in with no judgment.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: And so he'll say- The leaf products are very different
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: than the isolated. The isolated are very different than the
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: isolated synthetic products. And therein is where the legislature needs
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: to look. Because in this country, as you know, we
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: go like, all drugs bad. Or then we go, oh, wait,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: there's these incredible compounds in plants that we want.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Well, there's a parallel in refined sugar, right?
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Parallel in refined sugar. Exactly.