Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Racing Reborn: The Revival of European Motorsports Post-WWII
Transcript
- 0:00Break Fix's History of Motorsports Series is brought to you in part
- 0:04by the International Motor Racing Research Center, as well as the
- 0:07Society of Automotive Historians, the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of
- 0:11Commerce, and the Argo Singer family,
- 0:16the best years of our lives, the rebirth of post-war European
- 0:19Motor Sports by Skip McGowan.
- 0:21World War II in Europe left both victorious and vanquished
- 0:25countries devastated.
- 0:26Yet, within weeks of the end of hostilities on September
- 0:289th, 1945, an automobile race was held in Paris's bla Deone.
- 0:32This presentation addresses the questions, where did the financial
- 0:35and material resources for an active postwar racing program come from?
- 0:39And perhaps even more importantly, why were they expended in what many
- 0:43might regard as non-essential or perhaps even frivolous activity?
- 0:47Skip McGowan is the William h Cock Emeritus Professor of Finance at
- 0:52Bucknell University and was a longtime visiting professor at universities
- 0:55in Slovenia and Montenegro.
- 0:57He has presented and published on the history and culture of finance,
- 1:00as well as automobile history and culture, and served as area chair
- 1:04of the vehicle culture section of the Popular Culture Association.
- 1:08My interest in motor sports really has been what's under the table.
- 1:13You know, if you read my little bio in the brochure, what did it look
- 1:17like at the end of World War ii?
- 1:18Okay, so we had this classic image, and yeah, it maybe looked like that for a few
- 1:24days, you know, maybe even a few weeks or it looked like that in New York City.
- 1:29But there are other places where things were very, very different.
- 1:32The end of World War II looked like this in Britain.
- 1:34It looked like that in France, Germany, Italy.
- 1:38But what surprised me was that within weeks of the end of World
- 1:44War II, there was an automobile race in the bar de bologna.
- 1:47So the question I had been asking myself, maybe it's two questions.
- 1:52How and why did this happen?
- 1:54First of all, there's the question, how is we're looking at a place
- 1:58where there was considerable.
- 2:00Deprivation.
- 2:01You know, there were shortages of food, shortages of cash, shortages
- 2:06of all sorts of materials.
- 2:08So how did they manage to put together a racing program so quickly?
- 2:13But the other question, of course, is why were these scarce
- 2:18resources devoted to motor racing?
- 2:20I mean, because obviously there are a lot of other things that could
- 2:23have been done with them at the time.
- 2:25To approach this, and I cannot pretend that this is any sort of
- 2:28scientific approach, but I took a look early 1950s Grand Prix
- 2:32racing shortly after World War ii.
- 2:34Of course, they were racing automobiles that had existed before the war, but
- 2:38what I was interested in was when new vehicles started being built.
- 2:44So I took a look at all the vehicles that had raced in the early to mid fifties,
- 2:49and I came up with a list of those that had been designed and built after.
- 2:54The end of the war, and that had raced in at least several races over
- 2:59several years, not just the ones that maybe were one and done that showed
- 3:03up and then disappeared again, but ones that hung around for a while.
- 3:06These were the major players, and the Hess represent the cash flows.
- 3:11I'll get back to this a little later, but I wanted to show this down because
- 3:15what I wanted to focus on here were the constructors, you know, as kind
- 3:18of the heart of this whole process.
- 3:20So who were the people who built the new vehicles that participated in
- 3:25this very early Grand Prix racing?
- 3:28And it turns out there were 10 of them, five of them were from Britain,
- 3:32five of them were from the continent.
- 3:33The five that were from Britain were largely constructed by.
- 3:38Businesses with mechanical interests.
- 3:41To kind of rephrase that a bit, they were built by gearheads in
- 3:44overall playing with their own money.
- 3:46I don't mean this to be pejorative because honestly, the more I read about the folks
- 3:51who did this, the more respect I had for them and not just respect, I liked them.
- 3:55These were people I would've liked to have known, and this is who they were.
- 3:59We had HWM Cooper, connot Van Wall.
- 4:04And BRM.
- 4:05Now, the continent was a little different.
- 4:08These were businesses that were more or less corporately connected, and I
- 4:14would describe them as gearheads in suits playing with someone else's money.
- 4:18So they didn't wear overalls, they wore suits, they didn't use their own money.
- 4:22They were using someone else's money.
- 4:24So we had Gordini Maserati.
- 4:27Macho Mercedes, and of course Ferrari.
- 4:30Just a few observations here to begin with.
- 4:34The groups illustrate two different forms of industrial organizations.
- 4:40The British companies were really representative of what you might
- 4:43call entrepreneurial capitalism.
- 4:44Really, this applies almost across the board in the industrial structure.
- 4:50Britain was dealing with individuals who started their own businesses.
- 4:55Maybe they grew, maybe they didn't, but it was a very individual thing versus
- 5:00what we saw in the continent, which you might refer to as national capitalism.
- 5:05The idea being that there were groups of related industries.
- 5:09They were associated with certain financial arrangements.
- 5:13They probably had close connections with the government.
- 5:16So we had really smaller organizations, larger organizations, but as I say here,
- 5:22the motoring industry or the racing in.
- 5:25Was really representative of something that was much broader phenomenon.
- 5:29Now, I did use the term gearheads, but the idea was that regardless of the type
- 5:34of organization, it all involved someone that had obvious personal motivations in
- 5:41racing, talking about money, which was kind of how I entered into this interest.
- 5:47Was construction really a real business or was it something else?
- 5:53Now, the more I looked at this, I realized that what went on there,
- 5:58and not surprisingly, because we're talking about the same era, was what
- 6:02we're seeing in these early days of post-war racing seemed to me to resemble
- 6:07the early days of rock and roll.
- 6:10You had garage bands, and in the case of Connot and HRM, these
- 6:15were literally garage bands.
- 6:18They built their cars within their garages.
- 6:21Cooper began as a garage band, but it's kind of like a garage band.
- 6:25They got a recording contract.
- 6:27Okay.
- 6:28So they were able to kind of move upscale from their origins.
- 6:32We also had groups with wealthy parents, so Van Wall.
- 6:37Was an interest of Tony Vanderwell who had made money with thin wall bearings.
- 6:43And in the case of Maserati, lots of details here.
- 6:47This was Ori who had a lot of other industrial interests.
- 6:51Okay.
- 6:52And Maserati was among them.
- 6:54So the racing activities received contributions from these other larger
- 6:58industrial concerns within the group.
- 7:01You had groups with what I might call gullible parents.
- 7:05In other words, someone was willing to.
- 7:08We're able to convince someone else that racing was a good
- 7:12idea from a business standpoint.
- 7:14So supposedly launch of getting involved in racing would help sell launches.
- 7:20This is the one, honestly, with Mercedes that kind of baffles me
- 7:23because it's like, okay, if we race, we're gonna sell Mercedes.
- 7:27And we had an unfortunate person who was abandoned by their parents.
- 7:32Gordini was very closely associated with sim c. But Simcock kind of cut
- 7:37'em loose when the cars deviated too much on the track from the
- 7:41ones that he was trying to sell.
- 7:43You hear little bits and pieces of launch A going bankrupt and all of its.
- 7:50Racing assets being transferred to Ferrari, and you see little bits and
- 7:56pieces suggesting that Fiat was the one that orchestrated this transaction.
- 8:02And I can't help but think that somehow the Italian government was involved.
- 8:08In preserving the presence of the country or some sort of, you know,
- 8:13national Italian product within racing.
- 8:16This was certainly the case prior to World War ii, and I'm not sure that this
- 8:21industrial governmental relationship.
- 8:24It wasn't still in effect after the war.
- 8:27VRM is a little different.
- 8:28Okay.
- 8:29We had this group of really significant British industrialists coming together
- 8:35to produce kind of a British automobile.
- 8:39I've not seen anything that indicated a direct involvement with the government.
- 8:45But at the same time, all of these folks were plugged in, you know, and if it
- 8:50was necessary in some way to have the government kind of grease the skids for
- 8:55this project, I'm sure that they were able to arrange that it could be done.
- 9:00Bottom line is pretty much every one of those vehicles and every one of
- 9:06those constructors was depending upon some sort of handout from someone.
- 9:11The only one of these that I think you might argue as a business
- 9:14would be Cooper, but Cooper.
- 9:16Was probably the only one that actually turned into a success at actually selling
- 9:21a product that someone wanted to pay for.
- 9:23They started out as a garage band, like a lot of the others.
- 9:26So then the question is, aside from these handouts, was there
- 9:29any other money flowing in.
- 9:32To this process that might have turned it into some sort of business.
- 9:36So here's where I get back to this.
- 9:38So we did have two sources of cash flowing in.
- 9:41One was from sponsorships and the other was from the promoters.
- 9:45Even those cash flows are not so easy to understand.
- 9:50First of all, the sponsors had to make money.
- 9:53So you assume that, okay, the sponsors were using this as.
- 9:57Kind of a marketing tool, but it's hard to value marketing.
- 10:03You really can't say that, look, you know, we put this much into
- 10:06sponsoring racing, and we can expect to get this much in sales out of it.
- 10:11You know, I did make a presentation about this last year, and there are lots of
- 10:16intangible benefits that companies believe they can realize from sponsorships.
- 10:23So it would be hard to argue that this is like a strictly business activity.
- 10:29Promoters had to not lose money.
- 10:31One of the things that I always found interesting was it looks as
- 10:34if these promoters of these races immediately after World War II were
- 10:37not money making organizations.
- 10:39They were clubs, regions, just.
- 10:44Creating some sort of activity, and I noticed in the presentation it
- 10:47was mentioned that NASCAR kind of stepped in as a business because the
- 10:51aaa, and I forget which the other organization weren't making a go of this.
- 10:55Again, it does not appear that originally this could even be referred to as
- 10:59a business, but at least they could count the cash at the end of the.
- 11:03Okay, so they could say, look, you know, we're providing this service,
- 11:07we're getting this much money in.
- 11:08As a result of doing that, that's almost as close as it came to business.
- 11:13There had to be more going on.
- 11:15Obviously something else was driving this revival of racing
- 11:20right after World War ii.
- 11:22So quickly keep in mind the two questions that I posed up front were how.
- 11:27And why this was happening.
- 11:30So the how, at least in one sense was that we're seeing handouts in various
- 11:36ways to construct these vehicles.
- 11:39You know, we're seeing money coming in from sponsors for something
- 11:43that the sponsors felt they were getting out of it, although I can't
- 11:47help feeling that these almost were handouts from sponsors as well.
- 11:51Yeah, sure.
- 11:52You can kind of sell that and say that this is a marketing
- 11:54expense, we'll put this money in.
- 11:56But basically, and people wanted to go to the races, they wanted to hang
- 12:00out in the pit areas and meet the drivers and those sorts of things.
- 12:04So, you know, hard pressed to consider that business.
- 12:07And a lot of the races were organized as mainly just, you
- 12:11know, kind of public events.
- 12:12You know, the money there is pretty peculiar.
- 12:14There were other advantages that kind of facilitated.
- 12:18Racing right after World War ii.
- 12:20First of all, one was that a lot of the businesses in the war
- 12:23really had made money, so the money kind of came out of the war.
- 12:28Vanderwell, I imagine, made quite a bit of money selling bearings during the war.
- 12:32Another thing was there was a surplus of reasonable pavement.
- 12:36It was not necessary to really spend a whole lot of money
- 12:40constructing facilities.
- 12:41I mean, this could be done on the old aircraft tarmax that, you
- 12:45know, were existing from the war.
- 12:46There was a lot of scrap around.
- 12:48It was interesting to, I mean, I may get this wrong, but you know, Cooper's
- 12:52original chassis, they took the front ends from two old Fiats and cut 'em in
- 12:58half and put them together back to back.
- 13:00But of course, I think what was interesting is the fact that this could
- 13:03be done so inexpensively that they created kind of a market for inexpensive
- 13:08vehicles that other people would purchase.
- 13:11But yeah, there was a lot of stuff flying around that they could work with.
- 13:14And finally, nationalists sentiment was still running high.
- 13:19You know, the Italians were still interested in having
- 13:22a. Italy compete in some way.
- 13:24The British wanted to see Britain compete in some way, so you come out of the war
- 13:30with actually some profits from the war.
- 13:33You come out with some good places to race.
- 13:36You come out with kind of a desire still to compete.
- 13:39But I think there's more, and I think it's a little more subtle.
- 13:44When I read a lot of the, uh, things that are written about this area and
- 13:48about the early post-war racing, a lot of times they say, well, people
- 13:52just wanted to get back to normal.
- 13:54People wanted to get back to doing the sorts of things that
- 13:58they had done before the war.
- 14:00Forget about the war.
- 14:01Get back to normal.
- 14:03Remember, this is racing.
- 14:04This isn't like going bowling like I see on the billboard out there.
- 14:08The question is why racing?
- 14:10We need to consider.
- 14:12The people who wanted to get back to normal weren't the same people
- 14:16that were normal before the war.
- 14:18They came back differently.
- 14:20You know, I chose this image because, you know, there's a suggestion that the
- 14:26original biker gangs after World War II were, you know, were made up gis.
- 14:31So yeah, okay, we wanna get back to normal.
- 14:34But the people who were getting back to normal weren't the same people.
- 14:37How are they different?
- 14:38I don't know how accurate some of these characterizations are.
- 14:41We turned into Gearhead Nation.
- 14:44Everyone in the war to some extent, had to deal with something mechanical.
- 14:48They had to know how to take care of it.
- 14:50They had to know how to repair it.
- 14:52So we had a nation of people that were really mechanically inclined.
- 14:59And mechanically interested and in support of that.
- 15:02Now you can read this quote from Raymond Mays.
- 15:05And Raymond Mays was certainly noted for using hyperbole when it served
- 15:11his interests, but he anticipated this phenomenon when he was
- 15:16soliciting contributions in order to.
- 15:20Create BRM.
- 15:22Okay, so one of, one of the rationales he gave was that this would exist.
- 15:28He saw all of these people coming out of the war with this mechanical
- 15:32aptitude in the mechanical interest.
- 15:34Second, people wanted it fast and loud.
- 15:38I'm not sure that this is anything new, but the war had been fast and loud.
- 15:43And people wanted to continue with the fast and loud, and this is the
- 15:48one I think is maybe the most subtle, but the most significant people came
- 15:53out of the war as adrenaline addicts.
- 15:56Life was just never as exciting.
- 15:59You know, I remember reading about the settlement of the West.
- 16:03You know, after the Civil War.
- 16:05I can't help thinking what it was.
- 16:06A lot of people came out of the war saying, look, running a
- 16:09general store in Connecticut just didn't have that thrill anymore.
- 16:12So I'm gonna go out and do something a lot more interesting.
- 16:15And I happen to run into this in one of the emails that I get from the Veterans
- 16:21Administration, so maybe this wasn't just a post-World War II phenomenon, someone
- 16:28thinks that there is still such a thing as an adrenaline addiction out there.
- 16:34So my underlying argument was that despite what the literature often
- 16:39says, people just wanna get back to normal and do normal things.
- 16:42Racing was not a return to post-war normal.
- 16:47It was a continuation of the wartime intensity.
- 16:50It was a way for people to capture the best years of their lives.
- 16:55Now, I don't know how many of you have seen the movie or remember the movie
- 17:00Dana Andrews before the war had worked at a soda Fountain, comes back from
- 17:05the war and you know, these three guys were sharing hop back to the hometown.
- 17:10Frederick Marsh had been a banker.
- 17:13I can't remember what Harold Holland's job had been before the war.
- 17:16I wanna focus on Dana Andrews.
- 17:18Okay.
- 17:19He was working at a soda fountain before the war.
- 17:24In the war.
- 17:24Obviously he had been a captain and he was a bombardier, and I think a beat 24.
- 17:31Big difference between pre-war, life and life in the Army Air Corps.
- 17:37So he comes home and it turns out his wartime marriage essentially fallen apart.
- 17:43He shows an interest in Frederick March's daughter Theresa Wright, which doesn't
- 17:48exactly make Frederick March too happy.
- 17:51You know, you, you can kind of picture, this is actually a C, great movie.
- 17:54You can picture the situation he's in.
- 17:56Can't go back to doing what he did.
- 17:58He can't go back to normal.
- 17:59So what happens in the movie is he ends up in an aircraft boneyard
- 18:05where all of the surplus equipment is being torn apart and scrapped.
- 18:10So he climbs into a B 24 and he sits down in the Bombardier's position.
- 18:18And you kind of get the parallels there.
- 18:20The aircraft was post-war surplus, but in a sense he's kind of looking at himself
- 18:25as post-war surplus as well, and the foreman and the, uh, scrap art comes up
- 18:31to him as what, what are you doing there?
- 18:34And is subsequently kind, you know, sympathetic that he's returned to
- 18:39the best years of his life, which was sitting in a plexiglass canopy.
- 18:46Dropping bombs.
- 18:47Probably the only person in greater danger than he was was the tail gunner,
- 18:51but it was the best years of his life.
- 18:53It didn't just happen in a movie.
- 18:56You can read this closing quotation that really zeroes in
- 19:00on the motor racing situation.
- 19:03Okay.
- 19:04Abe Caee was one of the principals in founding HWM.
- 19:10So you can see that he raced, of course, before the war, raced after
- 19:14the war, which was probably the closest he came to what he had done during
- 19:19the war, which he always regarded as the best years of his life.
- 19:23So the how of racing.
- 19:25People who had a personal interest in this in one way or another
- 19:30we're able to scrape together the money and the resources to do it.
- 19:35The key though is why did they do it?
- 19:37And to me, I think this provides one of the best explanations of why they did it.
- 19:43They just weren't the same people they were during the war and racing
- 19:47might have been an activity that was as close to recapturing that emotion
- 19:53as anything else they could do.
- 19:55Thanks very much.
- 20:02Thanks.
- 20:03That was great.
- 20:03Do we have any questions or comments on that?
- 20:06So I have a, I guess a sort of a, maybe a similar analogy to your thesis here
- 20:10is, uh, a while back I watched Peter Jackson's, they shall never grow old.
- 20:15It's a fabulous World War I documentary.
- 20:17And I wonder if there's a connection between the lost generation, right?
- 20:21These men that were just killed in mass numbers and early racing where they almost
- 20:27became sort of desensitized to death.
- 20:29You're referring to the post World War I?
- 20:32Yes.
- 20:32Yeah.
- 20:33Uh, yeah.
- 20:34Actually, I had studied the history of Bentley and how Bentley got started.
- 20:39Bentley was building cars for World War I aviators.
- 20:44Okay, because they were the people from the gentleman
- 20:46sportsman segment at the time.
- 20:49He was building cars for them and they were engaged in as closely as they could
- 20:55to what they felt during World War I. Although it turned out, of course, a
- 20:58lot of people ended up putting really heavy his Dan bodies on his automobile.
- 21:04So kind of created like a, like a. Puzzle in terms of what a Bentley
- 21:08really was, but this was who Bentley was building vehicles for.
- 21:11It was it.
- 21:12You're right.
- 21:12It was the same thing was the racing.
- 21:14You mentioned nationalism, the desire for people in England, France, Germany,
- 21:20to have a car they could take pride in.
- 21:23So with that in mind, wouldn't the governments, even though their resources
- 21:28were stretched and limited, and especially when you look at your opening pictures
- 21:32of people in despair, wouldn't those governments wanna fund events that
- 21:37would give them hope and excitement and a reason to be excited instead
- 21:42of just living in a pile of rubble?
- 21:44I don't know enough about the original situations in each of those countries,
- 21:49but I agree with you a lot of.
- 21:52Research can be done on the direct and indirect support.
- 21:57I tend to think at the time, and this is just off the top of my head, governments
- 22:01didn't have a lot of resources.
- 22:03They had run up considerable debts during the war.
- 22:05Sure.
- 22:06It was tough.
- 22:07It was maybe, I suppose, moral support in a way.
- 22:11If they could ease up on regulations or maybe make sure that supplies
- 22:17one thing, were available for something else, whatever they
- 22:20could do that didn't cost anything.
- 22:22Even if they could clear the streets to a lap race to go through a particular, but I
- 22:27suspect that this was definitely happening in Italy and there were only hints.
- 22:32Of it happening in Britain of a governmental connection?
- 22:35Well, as and Zo Ferrari said, so much of this stuff is under the
- 22:39table and it's really, really difficult to find information as
- 22:43to what really went on from this political and and economic standpoint.
- 22:48I think it'd be a great opportunity for someone in scholarship and people are kind
- 22:52of, it's just nibbling around the edges.
- 22:54Anyone else have any questions?
- 22:56There's a comment from John Summers dovetailing off what you said.
- 22:59He said, Sterling Moss's success was in part reverence in Britain is
- 23:05down to the idea of Britain winning abroad and then taking your mind
- 23:09off of the reign and the poverty and everything that was going on at home.
- 23:13So I guess to your point about nationalization and patriotism and
- 23:16all those things, so he just wanted to throw that out there to be in
- 23:19concert with what you're saying.
- 23:20Well that, and I know that the British automobile industry after
- 23:23World War II was highly expert oriented to earn foreign exchange.
- 23:27You know, the government was encouraging companies to produce
- 23:30the automobiles that could be sold in the United States to earn money.
- 23:35I wanted to ask a question about your concept of entrepreneurial capitalism
- 23:38versus national capitalism, and in particular, I'm interested, I think, in
- 23:42how that manifests in the United States.
- 23:45And if you've thought through the post-war dimensions of construction of special
- 23:49automobiles in the United States and how that differs or is similar to the
- 23:53British perspective, the literature on that subject is like massive because
- 23:58it's, this is not just automobiles.
- 23:59This is.
- 24:00Pretty much across the board.
- 24:02A lot of it had to do with the way capital is allocated in the different areas.
- 24:08And in Britain and the United States, companies would raise money,
- 24:13presumably at arms length from capital markets, which is today.
- 24:18We still see that stock ownership being much more common in the
- 24:21United States and Britain, whereas.
- 24:24On the continent, financing generally went through banks with close
- 24:30relationships to industrial combines.
- 24:33Just for one example, in Germany, they're doing everything they can to
- 24:36try to get people used to the idea of investing in stocks and having a
- 24:42better investor connection with the companies as opposed to the companies
- 24:46being connected to the larger banks.
- 24:48In fact, they designed the stock exchange to make it look exciting.
- 24:52If you ever get a chance to go to Frankfurt and go to the stock exchange,
- 24:56well worth the visit all for show, but that's the reason behind it.
- 25:00This may be related, it's somehow connected to what you're talking about,
- 25:03but I had read somewhere along the line that one of the reasons death was
- 25:08tolerated so much in auto racing was that.
- 25:11People were looking to replace their World War II heroes, which
- 25:16often were killed in plane crashes and fighter pilots and so forth.
- 25:21That auto racing became that outlet for a hero.
- 25:25And yes, it was high risk and it often included death, but it was accepted.
- 25:29But that.
- 25:31How those heroes were formed and are made, and it was the vicarious
- 25:37thrill of imagining that was you.
- 25:40I'd have to disagree with that.
- 25:41I don't think anyone goes to the fact to see people fail in, oh, no.
- 25:44Uhuh.
- 25:45No, I'm not saying that.
- 25:46It's just the idea of going to the track to feel as if you're the hero.
- 25:51You're driving fast.
- 25:52Being on the edge.
- 25:53Yes.
- 25:54Yeah, that's that part.
- 25:55There were so many drivers killed.
- 25:57Oh no.
- 25:57I started, no, I completely agree with you on that, that that was not, the
- 26:02tolerance was there for period, and I'm not suggesting that either, but I just
- 26:08was an interesting concept that I read and I just think, yeah, sometimes still.
- 26:15Yeah.
- 26:15Is that possible?
- 26:18I'm just gonna question your flow chart.
- 26:20Yeah, all, all of the arrows went, the money went to the drivers
- 26:23and I don't think that was true.
- 26:24Pardon?
- 26:25I said the flow chart that you put up, all of the arrows went to the drivers.
- 26:31Like they were the ones getting the money.
- 26:33And I don't think that's true.
- 26:34The air, no.
- 26:36The arrow simply means they got something.
- 26:38Yeah.
- 26:39Maybe, you know, I've talked to even the ones that did survive, they might have
- 26:43gotten something, although, you know.
- 26:45That did change over time.
- 26:47Yeah.
- 26:47Well, and many times they were, they were the sources many times as well.
- 26:50When you go back, even in post World War ii, the, the wealthy,
- 26:54you know, sporting gentlemen were the sources of some that money.
- 26:56But anyway, I just was commenting 'cause it was like, no, that's not true.
- 26:59Not a whole lot.
- 27:00Well, and the other thing I'm just as a personal experience that when I went to
- 27:03Bonneville in 2017, I was just really amazed at the bottle of Salt Flats.
- 27:08That, and, and of course this is.
- 27:10Will passed post World War, but how many of the people that run and build cars
- 27:15and run at Bonneville were ex-military?
- 27:17I mean, they almost all talked about that.
- 27:19And I mean, it was a real act, you know, an activity that the military was a,
- 27:23this was a place for them to go racing and, and to use their skills and have
- 27:26fun and, and camaraderie and all of that.
- 27:28So it was a culture that really attracted, uh, military people.
- 27:31Mm-hmm.
- 27:31Just share that actually, a lot of the Bonneville cars were, yeah.
- 27:35Great analogy.
- 27:36Anyone else have any other questions?
- 27:39Thank you, skip.
- 27:40That was great.
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