Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Alex Gladstein | Bitcoin Fixes Democracy | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Alex Gladstein | Bitcoin Fixes Democracy | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:00
No, welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin live.
0:05
I mean, no, it's IRL. It's not life.
0:07
It's been a. It's been a very, very long day.
0:09
Anyways today, a very special guest Alex gladstein before I
0:15
welcome him on the stage. I Wanna Give a shout-out to the
0:18
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Anyways, I want to welcome Alex on stage.
0:45
Alex, thank you so much for for joining me today.
0:48
Yeah, my pleasure man, happy to be here.
0:51
So I was on a plane ride back from, it was Colorado to Miami
0:57
and I ran into If one of your pieces that the legend guy Swan
1:03
was covering and I think I deemed you right then?
1:05
And there was like, dude, this is this is absolutely incredible
1:08
and it really opened my mind's to my mind to a lot of things.
1:12
And basically what I'm talking about Alex is You would think
1:18
that the IMF and World Bank would be institutions that were
1:22
bettering the human race. It was it was improving the
1:24
human race and I think that's really how they advertise
1:28
themselves. But the reality is quite
1:31
different, isn't it? Yeah.
1:34
And I think that most bitcoiners are Aware that these
1:42
institutions are up to no good, especially the IMF I think has
1:47
had a negative reputation among let's say leftists and
1:53
Libertarians. I think, you know, for a long
1:56
time and look, you speak to people in the global South and
2:00
they immediately are, you know, very skeptical of the IMF, the
2:06
World Bank has a much better reputation generally.
2:09
And either way, I think most folks kind of in the mainstream
2:14
would say something like, well, you know, maybe they make
2:16
mistakes but you know, we really need them.
2:19
We need a global lender of Last Resort, you know, with the IMF.
2:23
And we need a institution that's going to invest in
2:27
infrastructure projects, in poor countries.
2:29
Whether you know is not appetite from private.
2:33
In the case of the World Bank. So I think people just sort of
2:36
justify them even if they know there's some problems. but when
2:40
you really dive in and look at, What they've been doing in the
2:45
meta sense, you know, since the 60s, what the results have been,
2:50
and kind of who they've, who they have allied with and what
2:54
their incentives are. As I argue it basically reveals
2:58
that they've become a colonial Force.
3:06
You know that's emerged since decolonization in the 60s.
3:12
They've What kind of replenish some of those Colonial flows
3:17
that used to come in to rich countries from poor countries,
3:20
through traditional imperialism. They've helped replenish those
3:24
and help build that flow. So that since 1982, you know,
3:29
poor countries are Subsidizing the quality of life of people in
3:35
rich countries to the tune of these days, you know, several
3:38
trillion dollars a year and I think that's what's you know,
3:43
really shocking. Because the second thing is just
3:45
the structural adjustment generally.
3:47
Like it's not just the loans, it's not just the fact that
3:52
these are not gifts. These are usually High interest
3:55
rate loans where the borrowing country You know, will end up
4:01
paying maybe a billion and a half, back on a billion dollar
4:03
loan or maybe even two billion over the lifetime of the loan.
4:07
It's not it's not just that the flow is like coming the other
4:10
way and that these institutions and their creditors are making
4:13
money off these loans and off, you know, development it's that
4:18
the global South countries are being like engineered to be more
4:25
kind of like Dependent on us and less Sovereign.
4:32
And, and that's, that's the really crazy part is that again,
4:35
not only is it sort of a debt trap, but these countries are
4:39
sort of forced to become dependent on buying, you know,
4:43
let's say like mainly like agricultural products food from
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the west and then producing stuff that we need.
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So this, this sort of these are two things that are related in
4:53
the in the spot in this spiral and the drain.
4:56
I guess that that I've described So, and why do you think?
5:03
And you mentioned earlier, right?
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You said what they've been doing since the 60s and I know we
5:10
don't have enough time to get into the nuance and get into the
5:13
nooks and crannies of that. But I want to focus on Alex what
5:19
they advertise they've been doing and what they've actually
5:22
been doing well when they were set up in 44 their Bretton Woods
5:26
institutions. So they were set up.
5:27
Originally in a hotel in New Hampshire, 1944 by the Allies,
5:33
by The Winning Side, of World War Two, they were originally
5:37
set up to avoid the what happened in the 1930s with
5:40
global trade, where it kind of broke down and there was a lot
5:42
of like countries kind of a pulling back.
5:46
Away from trade to be self, Sovereign that wasn't good for
5:51
people who make money on global trade, meaning countries like
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the US. So the Bretton Woods
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institutions were set up to prevent that from happening
5:58
meaning to keep the trade flowing.
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So, you know, a lot of people think that that's a good thing,
6:04
and that we should all just be comparative for comparative
6:08
advantage, free market, you know, making the stuff we're
6:10
good at and then trading with each other.
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I have questions about that. Let's say after doing this
6:15
research about whether or not that's ideal but but but put
6:18
that to the side, you know, the mainstream would say, that's a
6:22
good thing. Yeah, let's let's not have like
6:24
trade breakdown. So for example, the idea being
6:28
post 44, if some country Had like a crisis where it's import
6:33
started to really outweigh its exports.
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That, the IMF could step in and provide a 223 or loan to tight
6:39
it over until I can get back on its feet ditto, the World Bank,
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if some country, like couldn't afford a really important
6:47
hydroelectric Dam, let's say the World Bank would come in and
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Lead around with a bunch of other investors and and and and
6:54
the local government could get that built.
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So that, that, that's what they, that's what they're advertised
7:00
for. And, and that's what essentially
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they do. It's just you have to think
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about the second order effects of that.
7:05
And in the imf's case, it means bailing out dictators for
7:08
decades with a bigger and bigger debt, pile of the citizens are
7:12
always left holding the bag with and the dictators really, never
7:16
personally have to pay it off, even though they skim, what, 20
7:18
30 percent off the top on the World Bank side, what it means
7:22
is these enormous projects that The World Bank and its creditors
7:28
and its allies benefit from through the dynamic of What's
7:31
called the double loan. So, for example, the World Bank
7:34
will help a big loan be given out to a country like Ghana or
7:37
Argentina or Brazil Etc. And let's say it's a billion
7:42
dollars in today's money. So what happens is within the
7:48
first like year to that entire billion dollars get spent by
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let's say Brazil on the, on the western companies who are going
7:56
to build a Thing. So let's say it's a dam in
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Brazil. So the World Bank leads around,
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it's a billion dollars in credit credit is extended the Brazilian
8:02
government. Brazilian government pays a
8:04
billion dollars to have the thing built and it pays Western
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companies. So the West has been paid back
8:10
within a year or two right away but Brazil now the taxpayers are
8:14
Brazil. Now, oh, principal plus interest
8:16
on the billion so when all is said and done, you know, the the
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West gets, let's say two and a half billion, they make a lot of
8:24
money on this thing and And what ends up happening is that that
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day. I'm usually benefits them like,
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it's usually a damn that is basically powering.
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Let's say, like a mineral. Harvesting operation, where 90
8:43
percent of the profits are going towards the West with really
8:48
cheap, really below-market cheap energy, because of the dam.
8:52
So it's this is not development in in the true sense, it's not
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like the local population is being embedded or you know
8:59
benefiting in any real way. Other people are somewhere else
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and they're paying for it and that's why what the World Bank
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does. You know, is so sort of devious
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is it's very it's sort of hidden away, but they really do like
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Accomplish the same feat, says, a lot of colonial Dynamics, just
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just, you know, by using debt as a weapon instead of a gun or a,
9:24
you know, a ship with cannons. Etc.
9:27
So Alex, why, why do they prefer dictators?
9:31
Why is that? Well, I mean and you know, we
9:33
can debate about democracy and what does it mean?
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And what's a democracy? But generally speaking, it's
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much easier for them to deal with a dictatorial client that
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can just like put down. Protests With, You Know, It Go
9:46
quell them at any time because the structural adjustment
9:49
policies that the IMF attaches to loans are not popular, but
9:53
they're called a steady measures like nobody wants them.
9:56
Everybody knows what's coming. You know the mass is know what's
9:58
coming. The Masters know what's coming
10:00
is currency devaluation. Basically a recession you know
10:06
shrinking Bank credit more you know Rising taxes, Rising
10:09
interest rates the end or like dramatically reduce subsidies
10:13
for things like Bread and fuel. Like, that's what the IMF wants.
10:18
And that's what he told people get pissed.
10:20
So, if it's a dictatorship, you know, like Marcos in the
10:23
Philippines, like it was easy. He would just, he didn't have to
10:26
deal with a Supreme Court. Ruling him down, you know, by
10:29
the end of his term or, you know, A legislature like a
10:32
senator or a congress house, getting angry with him, he
10:36
didn't have to deal with labor unions, or whatever.
10:39
He could just do whatever he wants and he would shoot anybody
10:41
or prison, anybody who disagrees with him.
10:44
You try to do austerity on a democracy, people are going to
10:47
be Marching In the Streets. The Supreme Court's going to be
10:50
you know kind of like vetoing maybe contracts with the with
10:57
foreign companies, you're going to have people in the Congress
11:00
or the Senate trying to overturn stuff, you're going to have
11:03
labor unions. Pushing back with.
11:06
So, you know, there's no perfect Society.
11:09
But these Democratic societies are much, more hard to deal with
11:12
when you're trying to impose something on them because the
11:15
people can can fight back. So that's why.
11:18
Traditionally the IMF really preferred dictators?
11:22
Who could just kind of, they could just be like easy clients
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to work with the you can control them easier.
11:28
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, a dictatorship is way
11:30
easier to control than at democracies.
11:32
The point where I liberal democracy properly understood.
11:35
Yeah, That's much harder. Because power is decentralized
11:38
among different parties. You don't just have the
11:40
military, you have the legislative branch, the
11:43
Executive Branch, the judicial branch, you have the media, you
11:45
have labor unions, you have Lobby groups.
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You have like this, all kinds of different people kind of
11:51
jostling for power and they're not going to like someone coming
11:55
in and like crushing their economy so that people can get
11:59
cheaper stuff in other countries, you know, can buy
12:03
their stuff for cheaper. Dictators don't care because
12:06
they can take a percentage off the top of the new money flowing
12:09
in and like everybody else be damned.
12:12
You know, what are your thoughts on Democracy?
12:16
Alex. And that I'm asking, is from the
12:17
angle of, you know, if I'm sure you've known that you're sure,
12:21
you know this but big Winners, some bitcoiners better said,
12:25
feel a certain way about democracy.
12:27
I'll be honest with you, Alex, like the, maybe the last two
12:33
years, I'm starting to feel a certain way but the The thing is
12:36
though, is that what is the bet? There is no better alternative
12:39
to it and I think Winston Churchill, had that amazing
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quote, right? This is the worst systems best.
12:47
We have something like that. I totally Butch paraphrasing
12:50
out, but what are your thoughts on this?
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Specifically after you've been kind of, you've gone down the
12:55
rabbit hole because I think Bitcoin makes you think of it
12:58
differently. I don't know. well, Bitcoin is
13:01
reinforced my passion for Liberal democracy and my
13:07
distaste for dictatorship and tyranny.
13:10
If I just were to be short about it, in the classic example would
13:14
be North Korea, South Korea, right?
13:16
You have a dictator King in the north and you have a liberal
13:20
democracy in the South and you look at a satellite image and
13:23
any toddler could point to you. What looks like a nicer place to
13:26
live. And that's because of some basic
13:30
things that the that liberal democracies protect that.
13:33
At dictatorships don't and they include rule of law, private
13:38
property and free speech. So this is why Texas is like a
13:42
better place to live than to bet.
13:45
I think Nash, especially like, you know democracy is all, you
13:50
know, is such a big word but local governance of democracies
13:54
tends to be like decent federal or like National governance in
13:59
democracies tends to be not great.
14:03
But like when you look at that Society, it's extremely complex,
14:06
right? It goes It goes from the
14:08
national to the Village level, right?
14:10
And you know, when you don't have secret police in your town
14:14
like this is a positive thing, right?
14:16
So people's rights are just much better protected in a place like
14:20
Texas and in a place like Tibet, and I would have hope in.
14:24
Imagine people, understand that like there's a huge huge
14:27
difference. There are a lot of issues and
14:30
problems with the democracies they But I think those related,
14:35
I think those relate a lot to fiat currency.
14:38
Like I think that if you have liberal democracies with on a
14:43
Bitcoin standard I think that that's that's where I'm that's
14:47
what I'm signing up for like I think that's gonna be awesome
14:49
because that really limits the government prevents them from
14:52
stealing a lot of the wealth from the people and making
14:54
decisions that people don't authorizing.
14:56
You can argue that, you know, post 71 fiat currency has
15:00
really, you know, damaged democracies quite a And I think
15:04
that if we governments aren't allowed to like borrow without
15:07
asking from the people to do war and stuff which they want which
15:12
would be much harder to do, by the way, in a Bitcoin standard.
15:15
Then I think we get closer to the sort of, the more ideal
15:17
government. But yeah, I mean, I can't fault
15:20
anyone for criticizing the post 1971 democracies.
15:24
I mean, I can't, I mean, they've done horrible things abroad and
15:29
that there's been some like serious like social social
15:32
erosion. Inside that being said, I mean,
15:34
I certainly, you know, I just, you know, visited for example,
15:39
Costa Rica, and before that Ghana, and before that India,
15:43
and before that Norway, I mean, these are these aren't perfect
15:47
countries, but their democracies, India, being the
15:50
one that's like most most problematic.
15:52
But I mean, generally speaking these countries of rule of law.
15:55
Ah free speech and they really are, they outshine their
15:58
neighbors in many ways. Like if you think about
16:01
Nicaragua next to Costa Rica oh my God, if you think about You
16:08
know something like Belarus next to Norway or something like
16:11
China next to India or something like Zimbabwe next to Ghana.
16:18
I mean it's not clear. I don't think it's closed.
16:19
Where people would prefer to live in, you know, I think that
16:23
people would prefer the most. You know, I there's there's you
16:28
know, people reasonable people can disagree, but I think people
16:31
would prefer the, like, you know, more open society as far
16:36
as bitcoiners. Yeah.
16:37
I mean I think that it would make sense.
16:39
If bitcoiners were like against the surveillance police state
16:42
type stuff, it would make sense that that's kind of what they're
16:45
here fighting for. But that being said, I think
16:49
eventually everybody will be a big winner more or less.
16:52
We're all going to different opinions like already.
16:54
There's bitcoiners who seemed like totally, totally cool with
16:57
a aggressive authoritarian, police state.
17:00
All these people supporting boucle seem like totally fine
17:02
with that. They don't see any issues with,
17:05
you know, a sizable minority of the people just having all their
17:09
rights taken away as long as it makes like, as long as the guys
17:13
saying, the right things, they have no problem with this
17:15
whatsoever. In fact, if you criticize Is
17:17
that guy at all? They get really pissed off.
17:20
So already, we've got like a small group of bitcoiners who
17:22
were like Pro statist police state which like to me is just
17:26
crazy but I think that's just going to expand.
17:29
Like you're going to have all kinds of ideologies inside
17:31
Bitcoin. I mean started with like a bunch
17:35
of like cypherpunk Libertarians. That's not where it's going to
17:38
end, man. I mean, I've met I've talked to
17:40
communist bitcoiners in Cuba who are communists, like they
17:44
believe in the revolution. They see the Bitcoin as As
17:47
positive because it can hurt the Dollar Empire.
17:51
And at the same by the same token, I've seen Pro
17:54
surveillance police state bitcoiners who are buchelli
17:56
stands. So I think this is just going to
17:59
expand and and, and it's just going to like, become more
18:02
Divergent and there won't be be very hard to say, like, what is
18:07
a Bitcoin her in 30 years that's going to be a very difficult
18:10
thing. Other than that, we all believe
18:11
Bitcoin is cool, right? I think it'll really shrink are,
18:17
you know, the dietary stuff, the political stuff it all.
18:21
Gets a health stuff. It all gets some, it will get to
18:25
fuse the thing that will all think is cool.
18:28
I think it's just that like, we want Bitcoin and that we wanted
18:32
to succeed. I hope that makes sense.
18:35
No, it totally. It totally makes sense and I
18:38
agree with you, by the way, I think that a lot of the problems
18:41
in Smith. Let's talk about the state's,
18:44
right? Definitely comes from the DVD.
18:48
The alignment are on alignment of incentives between
18:51
politicians and their constituents.
18:53
Because politicians, in my opinion, of course, they're more
18:57
interested in getting as close as humanly possible to the money
19:00
printer. And I think that's insensitive
19:04
thing. So Alex, I wanted to ask you
19:07
because we have to cover this topic.
19:11
We simply we do a live show every single day and we are
19:14
slaves to the new cycle and This troubling development that I've
19:18
seen over the last couple of months, which is the hostility
19:23
by the B Administration towards the industry and Nick Carter
19:27
actually releases phenomenal piece.
19:28
I think it came out either it was yesterday or today.
19:31
Yeah. Name of the piece is called
19:32
operation. Chokepoint 2.0 is underway and
19:35
in that piece basically, he makes the case that divided
19:37
Administration has you know, they're hostile towards the
19:41
industry which makes perfect sense.
19:44
Right? Why wouldn't you be hostile?
19:47
Towards something that listen to this.
19:49
Your I just I just shared this. There's a reporter from Fox who
19:52
just tweeted scoop, Gary Gensler is embarking on a midnight
19:56
Massacre and attempt to bring all the crypto under his control
19:59
in the coming weeks, the SEC and my DFS, and the office of the
20:05
Comptroller, the concert Currency the OCC.
20:08
They'll be bringing a myriad of enforcement actions against
20:10
exchanges in Banks. And in the last 24 hours, you've
20:13
seen this, right? You've seen people go after
20:14
paxos which is like the issue of the vine Instagram.
20:17
Able coin. You've seen crack and get hit
20:19
with a huge fine. You saw, you know, coinbase
20:23
starting to come under the pressure.
20:24
So I think in a lot of this relates to staking Services is
20:30
where I think they're going after start, which might have
20:34
very interesting effects on a theory.
20:36
I mean, it might actually forced people away from using these big
20:40
study ins will see, but the point being we could be heading
20:45
into like a really intense year. Regulated cryptocurrency
20:51
businesses in the United States. Which look we've seen this
20:55
happen before in China, in India and Nigeria.
20:59
We've seen it, we've seen it, get so extreme that like in
21:01
countries like Nigeria, it's like illegal for a bank to serve
21:05
as someone who uses cryptocurrency essentially like
21:08
they go after the on off ramp right now.
21:12
What is this do is, is, is it pushes people into pure pure
21:15
marketplaces and that's what Happened in Nigeria and it does
21:18
not kill Bitcoin. That's for sure.
21:21
Now, it's never happened though. In The Hornet's Nest before like
21:25
you know we never seen this before.
21:26
So no one knows what it's going to do.
21:29
Is it going to tank the prices? It going to trigger the price
21:32
up? Is it going to hamper
21:35
Innovation? Is it going to spark Innovation?
21:37
I think you can make a great case for all this stuff we just
21:39
don't know. It's very bad.
21:41
I don't think it's great for like tokens that's for sure 44.
21:47
Tokens that claim to be decentralized but are all
21:49
actually centralized like this is, this is not, these are not
21:51
good. Developments like these are this
21:53
is why we created bitcoin because the like stuff that
21:57
actually has a group of actors who control it.
22:00
They're gonna they're going to go down with the ship when the
22:02
state really turns on the heat. You know Bitcoin seems to
22:07
centralized enough that it can withstand this will see.
22:10
I think that devs are feeling really really feeling the heat
22:15
right now developers like So we need obviously a lot more
22:18
pseudonymous developers and we need ways of financing and
22:21
supporting those pseudonymous developers, but hey, man, I
22:25
mean, I don't, I don't know if the, you know, first they ignore
22:29
you then they laugh at you, then they fight you, like, I don't
22:31
know. For this is fight you, the still
22:33
might be laughing, but we're getting there, and it's pretty
22:37
intense. But it comes at a time of
22:42
Honestly, really exciting time for Bitcoin.
22:44
I mean like, what can I say? I mean Global adoption
22:48
exploding. I mean the Noster stuff's really
22:51
exciting just because I think it's giving us a new area to
22:54
talk where the big social traditional social platforms
22:58
are. I think you know could face a
23:00
lot of stress right now and then austere things awesome.
23:04
I mean it took me a while to figure it out but really like
23:07
yeah your there's not going to you're not going to you're not
23:09
going to be using the global feed.
23:10
You're going to be using your own feed much.
23:12
On Twitter feed and there won't be any censorship and you manage
23:16
your realize properly and you're going to get a good healthy
23:19
stream of the content you want to see and there will be any
23:21
spam and it's gonna be a pretty awesome experience from what
23:24
I've seen and the integration of lightning on it is super slick
23:28
and I really love the I got to say that ordinals inscriptions
23:32
things, fascinating. I think it's bringing a lot more
23:34
people into Bitcoin at the right time.
23:36
I think it'll fade certainly from like the big being the big
23:41
thing. We're talking about to being
23:42
something that's sort of on the side, but it certainly doesn't
23:46
help to have a healthy FEMA. I mean, a certain it doesn't
23:48
hurt to have a healthy Market. I think that's going to be
23:51
important in the coming years and it's bringing look, it's
23:56
bringing a lot more people into running full nodes.
23:59
I mean, there, you got Discord channels out there where there's
24:01
like, hundreds of people from all coin communities coming in
24:04
and running full nodes so that they can, they can participate
24:07
in this. I mean, this is really bullish.
24:09
I think eventually they figure out how to make phone apps so
24:11
that you don't have Do that. But the point is that it's kind
24:14
of a very exciting time for Bitcoin.
24:16
There's a lot happening right now.
24:18
Yeah, no. And I totally agree.
24:21
It's definitely a very exciting time, but I also agree that it's
24:27
weird. Look, the, the way that I
24:29
described it Alex, is you see the dark ominous clouds on the
24:32
horizon and you know, you get little, yeah, trickles of rain
24:37
and then you're like, okay, are they?
24:39
Are they above me? Are they, are they?
24:41
I quite like are they not here yet?
24:44
But but I think that there's an inevitable Clash Alex, I can't
24:47
get around that guess. But I we've seen some big stuff
24:50
like we saw the Chinese government basically and Mining
24:56
like that was really intense. Like I'm not sure people like as
24:59
far as Bitcoin goes, that's that's as close to like an
25:01
infrastructure attack. We could get that was like the
25:04
world's biggest dictatorship. Just trying to punch Bitcoin in
25:07
the face. It lost what a massive amount of
25:11
its hash power. Like, you know, week like the
25:14
network went all the way down. I mean, we're at like what 300
25:18
right now, it went all the way down, like, 70 or 60.
25:20
It was insane, and yet it kept going like nobody's Services
25:25
were like affected. It was like, not a problem.
25:27
So, I mean that was really inspiring to me.
25:30
I mean, obviously gox was intense in the early days but
25:34
you've had like these bigoted big moments where it looked like
25:37
the corn was going to go down and it kept going.
25:39
So obviously, You know, block size Wars, gox, block size, were
25:46
CCP, shutting off mining. I mean, these are these are,
25:48
these are pretty serious things. I mean right now you're seeing
25:51
you know the big one is that the tax on centralized staking
25:55
services and stuff like that. I mean I mean Bitcoin node
25:59
Runners and Sovereign users are just kind of watching.
26:02
I mean the the most impacted the moment is is on the price as
26:06
we'll see. I do think that the Supreme
26:10
Court in the United States For all the people like the trash
26:13
democracy is going to be very helpful because I think that
26:16
having an independent Judiciary which is part of a liberal
26:18
democracy is extremely important in terms of preventing the
26:21
executive from doing whatever they want.
26:23
You live in a kingdom, there ain't no Supreme Court.
26:26
Let's just remember that. So all these Hypocrites that
26:29
went to the Satoshi Roundtable and Dubai or at least the
26:32
organizers, there were some good people who attended, but a lot
26:35
of the people who want their total Hypocrites because they're
26:37
out there. Blah blah, blah, blah blah.
26:39
What two days later, the dictators who Who run Dubai band
26:43
all privacy coins. They're going to go on the
26:45
attack against all unregulated user cryptocurrency.
26:48
That's that's not a place to be like Gathering to talk about
26:51
cypherpunks stuff. That's an authoritarian regime
26:53
that is built on slave labor. Like that is there's a weird
26:56
shit going on there. But the point is that like, you
27:01
know, we're you know, things are definitely going to heat up, but
27:04
I'm confident in the communities like ability to fight back.
27:09
Have you read? And I am to have you He'd have
27:13
you read the have you read huh have you read the piece by Corey
27:18
clips and the race to avoid the war?
27:20
And I'm going to connect it with and I'm sure you've seen this
27:23
speech. Alex, the speech by sailor at
27:26
the atlas Gala. I was like, I don't want to be,
27:29
I want to be a martyr. I do, you know what I'm talking
27:31
about II? Didn't get a chance to fully
27:35
absorb either of those pieces, but get feel free to do a tldr
27:38
or tell me what you want where you want to go here?
27:40
Yeah. So The point is that I think the
27:44
point I'm trying to make Alex is that I think that bitcoiners
27:48
from all walks of life whether you're the CEO of, you know,
27:51
they, you know, Bitcoin company or, you know, the CEO of a big
27:56
public company like microstrategy, I think we all
28:00
feel innately. That I think we all feel
28:05
innately what's at stake? And I think that a lot of people
28:08
see the big, you know, because I think we always make the
28:12
Joker's, the US, government's the final boss, right?
28:15
But at the same time, right? How much, how much power does
28:18
the government have from being able to issue money for free
28:22
that everyone else has to work for?
28:24
As it's a huge privilege and they're able to get away with
28:26
all this deficit spending because they have that
28:28
capability, why I don't see them just willingly handing over the
28:33
Keys and saying yes all you don't they don't really seem to
28:37
we're not there yet like that they're not really grasping it
28:40
like they're going after they're trying to protect their own
28:45
seigniorage ability first against things like stable
28:49
coins, and crypto tokens that represent dollars and and
28:53
against competitors to bonds. So the US government does not
28:57
want like competitors to bonds. They want you to stake with
29:00
them, right? So all these other
29:02
attractiveness kryptos, Services.
29:05
And they want you to use their dollars, the ones that they
29:07
completely control. Not these other dollars, right?
29:09
So what's your happening right now?
29:11
What you're seeing right now is the u.s. government start to
29:13
fight back a little against like people who are creating
29:15
Alternatives staking and dollar Services, we have not seen like
29:20
a full-throated like Hey we're worried that Bitcoin is going to
29:25
like take away dollar market share from.
29:31
Global users thinking about what do I save in or what do I
29:34
transact in and and to be fair, they'd be correct in assessing
29:37
that that's not quite happening yet but they're just they're not
29:41
they're not even I don't see that really here and the good
29:45
news is in America. Again we have checks and
29:47
balances so we have good senators and governors who are
29:49
fighting to have Bitcoin mining in their state who are fighting
29:52
who are going to fight for the right for you, to self custody,
29:54
who are going to fight against things like unrealized cap,
29:57
gains things like that. Those won't just be able to be
29:59
imposed in the United, Um, on people, because we're a liberal
30:04
democracy because we have a supreme court and we because we
30:06
have labor unions and all these other things, and the longer it
30:10
goes that they don't attack like Bitcoin self custody and Bitcoin
30:15
mining in this way, but won't the stronger we get.
30:18
And and, and the more unpopular it will be again, a democracy,
30:22
they're devoting more unpopular. It will be to go after Bitcoin
30:26
in the more likely you'll be to lose your seat if your anti
30:29
Bitcoin. Like I really firmly believe
30:30
that. Of that, one of the reasons
30:32
level democracy works with Bitcoin is like I think six to
30:35
eight years from now, it'll be political suicide to be anti
30:38
Bitcoin, whereas in a dictatorship there aren't
30:40
election. So government or king or the
30:42
Dubai Emirate of whatever, they don't have to them, not to
30:44
listen to the people, they can just do whatever they want.
30:46
So it doesn't matter as much for them.
30:48
You're out there. Living in Singapore or Dubai or
30:51
Rwanda, or you know, whatever bouquet late.
30:56
I mean, you know, El Salvador, you know, name.
30:59
These semi-authoritarian are fully Authority.
31:01
Regime, the some Bitcoin or seem to think is cool like hey when
31:05
the rubber hits the road like you don't have any Protections
31:07
in those places in the u.s. you got protections.
31:12
Like we it's a different system like it's a rule of law based
31:15
Supreme Court based system. So I feel good that the
31:18
superpower still has that in its DNA right now.
31:22
That's very helpful for us as Bitcoin is like bootstrapping
31:25
essentially. I mean, eventually you long
31:28
enough it doesn't quite matter, but Right now, I think that's
31:30
helpful. What is the ideal case?
31:34
Like, the ideal like, because I think, you know, obviously the
31:39
were expecting worst-case scenario, right?
31:42
But what is the ideal case for this transition?
31:46
I mean, I thought about that a lot I think say 15 has a great
31:48
course that he has for free on his on his podcast about this.
31:56
It's like the summary of His Fiat standard kind of course and
32:03
I'd be hoping for like a gradual transition to a Bitcoin
32:06
standard, I think a explosive, you know, some sort of
32:10
catastrophic explosive Like thing would be really
32:15
devastating because basically what you're going to have is an
32:17
unwinding of like the sovereign debt bubble.
32:19
It's like 90 trillion dollars so overtime and the corporate debt
32:23
bubble 60 trillion dollars in like A whole hell of a lot of
32:27
that is going to melt into Bitcoin.
32:29
But also real estate, which is, you know, in that ballpark gold
32:36
is 10 trillion. So you have all these asset
32:38
classes that are over a some amount of time in my view going
32:42
to melt mostly into Bitcoin. I still think companies and and
32:46
governments will always be able to issue debt for the promise of
32:49
more money. Denominated in whatever the
32:52
reserve currency is like in the Bitcoin standard was be SATs
32:55
like hey give us Us X number of sets will pay you back this much
32:58
more later and there will have to be a big discount because
33:01
people will be more fearful of lending.
33:03
But I don't, I mean, I totally, I don't see corporate and
33:06
national debt going away. I just think it's in a massive
33:08
bubble and as we transition over the next few decades towards a
33:12
Bitcoin standard, I think those, I think those bubbles start to
33:15
unwind, and I hope it's it's basically done in a way that's
33:21
gradual enough citizen. It doesn't hurt too many people
33:24
because it's going to be bad no matter what.
33:26
Really well. So that's why we need to educate
33:29
as many people as possible. Now about self custody seems
33:31
you're going to get really hairy is the Fiat system starts to
33:34
like essentially evolved and and essentially like decline I guess
33:40
in a way. Yeah and I completely agree.
33:44
I think the you know, one of the the tragedies that have noticed
33:47
Alex is that if you pitch an Argentinian or you know, a
33:54
Venezuelan or someone from Turkey, Hey hey hey here's
33:58
Bitcoin no non-government money Cap Supply take self custody.
34:04
Dude. It's like where can I sign up?
34:07
Yeah. Exact can I sign up for this?
34:08
Yeah. And then in the u.s. it's like
34:12
Why do I need that exact that away from me?
34:16
Hmm, I could go to prison or whatever.
34:18
Yeah people well it's Financial privilege dude and I mean hmm
34:22
eventually though. Like it's it at comes chickens
34:26
come home to roost or whatever like seriously.
34:28
Like as soon as like you get to platform or your bank account
34:32
happens to your bank account, or you start having trouble sending
34:36
a wire abroad or mean you name it.
34:39
There could be any number of like trigger items that get
34:42
Somebody to go into Bitcoin. I think those trigger moments
34:45
are going to like really intensify in volume over the
34:49
coming years. Like you're going to see a lot
34:51
more to platforming. You're going to see a lot more
34:53
have trouble Technical and liquidity trouble with
34:56
traditional Financial Services. I mean, look at Lebanon.
35:00
I mean I think you're going to have trouble with both National
35:03
and private banking. You're going to crises in both,
35:07
you're going to see a lot of issues moving money from A to B
35:11
if If there's conflict or a breakdown in trade or
35:15
Communications like you're just going to see a whole hell of a
35:18
lot of problems and and every single one of those is like a
35:21
moment that's going to Mint a new Bitcoin ER, out of
35:24
necessity. So this is why we have so many
35:28
tens of millions of bitcoiners or at least people who use
35:31
Bitcoin, I guess to say Loosely, it might be paper Bitcoin, it
35:34
might be custodial Etc but at least, you know, least they're
35:38
there on the journey. Let's put it that way through
35:40
the beginning of the journey that the The hill.
35:42
But they're climbing up the hill, okay.
35:44
You've got people climbing up the hill.
35:46
Yeah. Tens of millions of these people
35:47
climbing up the hill and a lot of the global South, right?
35:51
And I hope they just get a head start that would be that would
35:54
be the most like just thing and the most historically, perfect
35:59
thing would be for the, you know, people who have been
36:03
subjugated by Colonial powers to to get a better Head Start than
36:07
their former Masters, like that would really be something.
36:09
So that's like what I'm hoping for.
36:11
I mean, who knows maybe Maybe it won't work out but it certainly
36:14
seems to be working in that direction at the moment,
36:16
basically, from what I've seen and I completely agreed.
36:19
It's beautiful to wait because it almost feels like Cosmic
36:21
Justice. That's what I was.
36:23
Yeah, that's what it would be, but we don't know yet.
36:28
We don't know yet and look if the US government Against All
36:32
Odds. You know, if Gensler and Biden
36:35
end up being able to you know, somehow win an arm wrestling
36:40
match against the courts and The Congress.
36:43
And they can impose some of this stuff in America.
36:46
It causes a chilling effect and those Miners and devs.
36:50
And companies just going to go somewhere else.
36:53
And, and maybe it ends up being more like a cat and mouse or
36:55
like a whack-a-mole game, but they're gonna go to Taiwan or
36:59
they're gonna, they're gonna go to some of these partially at
37:01
the return places though, you might allow that Innovation for
37:03
certain amount of time for political aim but just don't, I
37:07
would caution people when they think about a place like, Like
37:10
El Salvador or or Singapore, or Saudi Arabia, or Dubai or
37:16
whatever. Like just know that you're there
37:18
at the pleasure of the ruler and like as soon as they're tired of
37:21
you like they're going to get rid of you.
37:23
Now, maybe getting rid of used bad for business and maybe you
37:27
do have a solid era there. But just just be careful, but I
37:32
do think that worst-case bad shit goes down in the United
37:36
States. People just go elsewhere, so
37:40
that that's the case you're making.
37:41
And now I'm starting to understand you Alex, okay?
37:44
So, the case that you're making is as long as things are
37:49
politically aligned with these authoritarians, right, whether
37:53
it's Saudi Arabia, I love Bitcoin.
37:56
But as soon as things go against them is what you're making.
38:00
In the case that it becomes incredibly hard to fight them in
38:04
those jurisdictions versus possible.
38:07
Well, by the way, the only one who says I love Bitcoins but
38:09
Kelly right now which which is again, great.
38:11
And I've been on record saying, it was an awesome move for him
38:14
to have Bitcoin as the national currency.
38:17
Love the volcano mining love the Bitcoin bonds, lots of good
38:20
stuff. Love giving the middle finger to
38:22
the IMF meets. The problem is that he's Putting
38:26
tens of thousands of people in prison without due process.
38:29
I mean, the problem is that he's spying on his opponents using
38:32
Pegasus software. I mean, these are these are,
38:34
these are not. I mean, the problem is that he's
38:38
changing the law so that he can rule for ever.
38:43
I don't know, he's a young guy and he's getting rid of the
38:47
independence of the courts and the Attorney General's so that
38:49
they stop investigating him. He's also stopping some really
38:52
important. Nation into war crimes in the
38:57
80s because whatever he probably cut a deal with the military.
39:00
The point is that like these are worrying Trends.
39:03
If you're thinking about property rights in the future,
39:06
as long as you keep your mouth shut you don't criticize him,
39:08
you're going to be fine. I think in the near term but you
39:11
never know. Same thing in other places like
39:14
if you're just some tourist or a client and you have a conference
39:18
in Dubai and you keep your mouth shut about the government.
39:20
They're they're freaking delighted to have you but as
39:23
soon as you soon as you open your mouth, About the government
39:26
watch out, same thing in Singapore, same thing as enemies
39:29
places. Whereas the United States, it's
39:31
like, I mean, you can go give him a little finger to Biden all
39:33
day long and run your business. And like, I mean, generally
39:37
speaking, you're going to be fine.
39:39
It's just very, very different. And you could say the same thing
39:42
in a bunch of other democracies generally speaking.
39:46
But look, the point is that Where the democracies have
39:52
broken down. I do think it's very clearly
39:54
related to fiat currency, and I do think that that Bitcoin fixes
39:59
this in a way, like, I think Bitcoin fixes democracy, is my
40:01
point. If I were to appear to put our
40:03
conversation in that in that three words, Bitcoin fixes
40:06
democracy, because I think democracies have been disabled
40:09
and infected with the fiat currency essentially.
40:15
And I think that they'll be much better off on the other side.
40:17
Whereas I think Tyrannies and police states are going to have
40:21
a really hard time on the Fiats on the Bitcoin standard.
40:25
Because basically like if you think about what Bitcoin is,
40:28
it's free speech property rights and open Capital markets, these
40:31
three things. So those Vibe with the American
40:34
values that America was founded on the principles of the
40:37
Declaration of Independence. But if you think about what
40:39
tyrants need for autocrats are strong men, they need the
40:43
opposite. They need censorship, right?
40:46
Censorship, confiscation and close.
40:49
Capital markets. This is what China and Russia
40:51
need to survive. They need censorship, they need
40:54
clothes, Capital markets, and they need confiscation.
40:57
So Bitcoin makes it really hard for governments to impose those
41:01
things on their people. So if you have like a political
41:04
construct, whose DNA resembles the values of Bitcoin, like, I
41:09
think that's going to vibe pretty nicely.
41:11
We're talking 30, 40 years out II.
41:14
So, I don't see these like dictatorial Powers doing that.
41:17
Well, in a Bitcoin standard, I it becomes really hard for them.
41:21
Yeah, interesting as fascinating as is one of those things is
41:26
Bitcoin fixes this. So, You were you were talking
41:31
about it earlier. We're just way before in the
41:37
beginning of the conversation, but I was meaning to ask you,
41:39
but we just, you know, got carried away in this
41:41
conversation about the IMF and the World Bank, we know how the
41:45
current system works, what would be the alternative to that
41:49
system? Yes.
41:51
So look in a Bitcoin standard you could still have a global
41:55
lender of Last Resort and you could still have like a super
41:58
National lending institution that would help in poor
42:02
countries but they would be very limited in terms of their power.
42:04
They would really have to think carefully about the loans that
42:09
have to be prudent. If a client country has
42:12
continually said no we're not paying you back instead of
42:16
bailing them out again with this like infinite Fiat machine that
42:20
We have we've been able to do. We basically we have to let them
42:24
go bankrupt which is a healthy part of capitalism, right?
42:28
The problem is like, you know, our world, what's happened is
42:31
that the banks that are the ultimate creditors of, let's say
42:35
the World Bank or the IMF etcetera, the Western private
42:38
Banks. You know, the loan that they
42:40
make to that, eventually goes to these third world countries is
42:43
an asset on the balance sheet so they don't want to see that go
42:46
to zero. They would they would rather
42:48
when like mbutu in Zaire when He was like, thanks for the money.
42:52
A couple years later. They come to collect and he was
42:54
like, I don't got it, you know, rather than let him go bankrupt
42:57
and right off the loan, like there was pressure from like the
43:01
Creditor side to just create another loan and just to keep
43:04
the party going. And that's why you've seen the
43:07
external debt of the third world to go from.
43:11
I don't know what it was like 100 billion or something in the
43:15
early 1970s around around when the Fiat standard began and and
43:20
and today it's like got like many many trillion dollars.
43:25
I have all the data in my piece but it's we're talking about
43:28
exponential rise in external debt.
43:30
We're countries would have a couple hundred million dollars
43:33
and now they have a hundred billion dollars in external
43:35
debt. And that's because like in you
43:38
know, instead of whenever they did fail, whenever You know,
43:41
instead of going bankrupt starting over again, they would
43:44
just get another loan and this you know, would go forever.
43:48
I don't, that's not possible and if Bitcoin standard so I think
43:50
the lenders have to be a lot more careful.
43:52
More prudent I think World Bank projects would have a lot more
43:55
skin in the game like the people investing in it would have to
43:57
like actually assess like is this going to work?
44:00
This is going to make money or is this going to be some like
44:03
failed project? The local governments just gonna
44:04
like take 30% off the top and let it rot in the jungle
44:08
afterwards. Like this is like So I think
44:11
it's possible. These things still exist in
44:13
terms of what they were founded to do.
44:15
I just think that they have like a little bit more limited of
44:17
influence which is healthy. I don't think they should have
44:20
dramatic influence over these countries.
44:21
Does that make sense? Yeah, it totally makes sense and
44:24
I agree and I think that it will be a more fair system and a lot
44:30
of people don't like and of course you know this Alex has a
44:33
lot of people don't understand that.
44:34
Those bailouts come with so many conditions that is it really
44:38
worth like for example, the one in Argentina, It was fascinating
44:41
right? Where the IMF was like Hey you
44:44
must be incentivize the adoption of Bitcoin while the country is
44:49
suffering from 95% efficient? Yeah, no.
44:52
I think that they're going to fight that back in that way and
44:55
we're just I just let's stay on guard here but you know will be
45:01
let's be hopeful like we have a very powerful tool here to fight
45:04
back. I know there's disagreement over
45:08
like what kind of societies this leads us towards I know some
45:11
people think it leads to a total disintegration of the modern
45:14
nation state the West value system, and it kind of leads to
45:17
like much more local governance and it kind of getting rid of
45:23
the representative, Mike Democratic model, maybe that's
45:27
the case. Maybe that's the case.
45:28
I think local governments is awesome.
45:29
It's much better. I mean much better to like kind
45:32
of have your rulers be people, you know, and you see rather
45:36
than like a thousand miles away. I mean, I'm totally on board
45:38
with that. I just tend to think again that
45:43
what this leads to is just more honest government and government
45:47
is more accountable to the people.
45:49
That's what democracy is all about.
45:50
It's about accountability. That's what it is.
45:54
I mean, again, property rights. I mean you can't have property
45:59
rights unless the government is accountable to the people.
46:03
I mean and that matters. I mean because look Bitcoin
46:05
gives people prop real, the real property rights.
46:07
That's awesome. But you still need a house.
46:09
You still need to incorporate a business, like I mean, you know,
46:13
these are these are these are things where we need the old
46:15
property rights, meaning like property rights, derived from
46:19
men with guns. Like you do need that like you
46:22
do need that for houses and for businesses you don't need for
46:24
Bitcoin it's invisible and we can protect ourselves of math
46:27
and it's cool. Be like that but but not, you
46:31
know, not not the stuff we're going to need for our daily
46:33
lives beyond money itself. Still going to need rule of law
46:36
for that and I think that Bitcoin drives us to have a more
46:42
honest and accountable rule of law system, which which, which
46:46
is much more associated with liberal democracy than with
46:49
tyranny, or Kings, or whatever Lords feudal system, God knows
46:54
what so we'll see. We'll see where it goes.
46:57
Yes, but I think it's pushing us.
46:59
It's paddling Us in like the right right direction.
47:03
Yeah absolutely. It's one of those things where
47:06
Bitcoin fixes this total is Alex.
47:08
I don't want to take more of your time.
47:10
Thank you so much for joining me on certain brother.
47:14
Oh, really extreme happiness. Thanks man.
47:18
Peace peace. Hey guys, another episode of
47:23
Simply Bitcoin iroh, we will see you back tomorrow for the live
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show. Take care everybody.