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Is the Stop Killing Games campaign destined to fail? · The Game Business Show

0:00
SPEAKER_00: This week, is the Stop Killing Games campaign destined to fail?
0:07
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to The Game Business Show.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: This week's show is sponsored by Keyword Studios.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: We've spoken about keywords a few times already on this show because they just do
0:15
SPEAKER_00: so much across the whole spectrum of making and selling.
0:18
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SPEAKER_00: They like to say they are supercharged by technology and shaped by long term partnerships.
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SPEAKER_00: Keywords Studios connects specialist expertise around the player experience.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: One of the things they are perhaps best known for,
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SPEAKER_00: certainly This is how they help studios prepare games for more markets,
0:40
SPEAKER_00: languages, platforms, launch windows, all sorts.
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SPEAKER_00: While importantly, keeping the quality, context and control where they matter most.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: They do localization planning, testing, localization testing.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: That's really important.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: That was my first job in video games, localization testing.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: And of course, launch support as well.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Keywords helps protect meaning, tone and release quality at a global scale.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: You can find out more on the Keyword Studios website and of course,
1:02
SPEAKER_00: in today's edition of The Game Business Newsletter.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: That was your advert for the week.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Now back to the show.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: We took a break last week and it gave me a moment to look back on the summer
1:14
SPEAKER_00: that we've been having as a video game business.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's been rough.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: It started okay,
1:20
SPEAKER_00: go back to spring,
1:21
SPEAKER_00: go back to May,
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SPEAKER_00: and there were so many hits,
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Forza Horizon 6, 007 First Light, Lego Batman to a degree, Subnautica 2.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
1:28
SPEAKER_00: all year,
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SPEAKER_00: whether it's AAA new IP like Pragmata and Crimson Desert,
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SPEAKER_00: established franchises like Resident Evil,
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SPEAKER_00: tons of indie hits like Mugenics, for instance.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: There's been lots of failures too of course high guard was a high profile one
1:40
SPEAKER_00: but there's been a lot of successes and summer game fest was great tons
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SPEAKER_00: of big game reveals from all three platform holders this year very strong showings
1:48
SPEAKER_00: that set up the end of year nicely I think but that's not what
1:52
SPEAKER_00: the conversation has been about over
1:54
SPEAKER_00: the last few months we've had these rising prices of consoles it's become
1:57
SPEAKER_00: a real crisis as playstation xbox and nintendo significantly increase the cost
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SPEAKER_00: of their machines to compensate for the rising component prices specifically
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SPEAKER_00: the price of ram and storage It feels like an existential threat to
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SPEAKER_00: the typical forward trajectory the industry has been going on.
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SPEAKER_00: We've had Amazon Luna on the show and Netflix to a lesser extent too,
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SPEAKER_00: which are these streaming platforms alongside Xbox that might offer some solution,
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SPEAKER_00: an avenue to get games out there that doesn't require expensive hardware.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: There's renewed industry interest in this.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: We had Strauss Zelnick talk about it several times during last week's Take Two financial calls.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: But it's easy to be skeptical.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Streaming outside of,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:37
SPEAKER_00: players that want to play their games on other screens, it hasn't really caught on.
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SPEAKER_00: Technically, it still isn't quite good enough for hardcore players.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: For non-gamers or more casual users, there are still barriers to use.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, the cost of these things, the fact you still need a controller.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe it will work this time,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe there's a way forward, but you can understand the skepticism.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: So we've had that big story,
2:58
SPEAKER_00: and we've also had this big story around physical discs no longer being produced
3:01
SPEAKER_00: by PlayStation from January 2028.
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SPEAKER_00: Sony says it's because gamers have shown they don't want physical discs,
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SPEAKER_00: and to be honest,
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SPEAKER_00: few of us expected the next generation of consoles to have disc drives built in.
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SPEAKER_00: But no disc drives at all?
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SPEAKER_00: Not even an external one?
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SPEAKER_00: No discs?
3:16
SPEAKER_00: The industry uses percentages to highlight how small the physical market is
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SPEAKER_00: for games, but that doesn't paint the truth.
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SPEAKER_00: We're talking millions of gamers here.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: In the UK,
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SPEAKER_00: around 40% of people who bought Resident Evil Requiem this year bought it in a box,
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SPEAKER_00: according to Ampere.
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SPEAKER_00: Sure, it's a third party game, but it's a classic PlayStation IP.
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SPEAKER_00: I bought that one physically because I'm a fan and I've got physical copies
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SPEAKER_00: of Resident Evil dating back to the original which I bought on PC.
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SPEAKER_00: This has to be a margin play.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: With the aforementioned cost rises on hardware plus games generally,
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SPEAKER_00: this is a way to cut out a distribution channel that is frankly quite costly where
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SPEAKER_00: the margins just aren't as good.
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SPEAKER_00: I do get it.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: But for me it still feels odd.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Nintendo has changed it so that if you want a physical game it costs more than a digital one.
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SPEAKER_00: I still buy those games physically because, well, I'm a fan.
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SPEAKER_00: If the next Resident Evil game,
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SPEAKER_00: well not the next one,
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SPEAKER_00: the next one's out next year,
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SPEAKER_00: so that will be available in a box,
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SPEAKER_00: but the one after that,
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SPEAKER_00: if that game is $80 as a download and $100 as a physical good,
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SPEAKER_00: I would still buy the physical good, because I'm a fan.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: In the same way I dropped £50 on a fancy coloured Linkin Park vinyl,
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SPEAKER_00: it's a small industry of course, it's not going to drive things for the industry.
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SPEAKER_00: But there's a business in it and it will keep audiences happy-ish.
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SPEAKER_00: In fact,
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SPEAKER_00: it might even improve the quality of physical goods being created
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SPEAKER_00: because they're being made not as a mass-produced product but as
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SPEAKER_00: a specialist collector's item.
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SPEAKER_00: The vinyls you get today are really cool.
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SPEAKER_00: That's where I thought physical was heading, not into oblivion.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: It certainly upset a lot of gamers at a time when, well, frankly as an industry, we need them.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: And finally, the other big stories, of course, have been around layoffs.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: It's just been constant.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: It's been constant for years.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: I was just writing about the cuts at Supermassive Games,
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SPEAKER_00: but the big headline cuts have come at Bungie and, of course, Xbox.
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SPEAKER_00: Xbox has laid off 1,600 people, sold two studios, let two other studios leave.
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SPEAKER_00: There's another 1,600 cuts to come, including more potential studio departures.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: We've talked extensively about the business and how congested the market is
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SPEAKER_00: and how hard it is to succeed and how everyone overinvested and et cetera,
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SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, there are successes across the industry every year.
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SPEAKER_00: I listed a bunch of them earlier.
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SPEAKER_00: But it's a crowded space.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Costs are high and success is hard.
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SPEAKER_00: This is leading to closures of companies who are struggling to break through.
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SPEAKER_00: Investors are getting scared.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Whereas big organizations like Xbox are focusing in on the more reliable bets.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: This isn't unique to Bundy and Xbox.
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SPEAKER_00: Everyone is doing it.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: What appears to be cropping up,
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SPEAKER_00: and you might have heard this in our Sumo interview,
5:37
SPEAKER_00: which we did on Tuesday, is these smaller teams are appearing.
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SPEAKER_00: A handful of people who are finding the fun,
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SPEAKER_00: getting to the heart of the game, that's what they say, before scaling up.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: They do that first.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that scaling up is internal, but in any cases it isn't.
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SPEAKER_00: It's with outsourcing companies and contractors.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: This is more theory at the moment.
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SPEAKER_00: We're not necessarily seeing it everywhere.
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SPEAKER_00: But certainly some companies are doing it.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: But if this is the direction of the industry,
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SPEAKER_00: if we are talking a future where we have a load of small teams that scale up
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SPEAKER_00: when they need,
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SPEAKER_00: probably using outsourcing in cheaper locations and then scaling back afterwards,
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SPEAKER_00: what does that mean for the existing companies with hundreds of staff?
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Of course, live service games might need that internal resource, but does everybody?
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SPEAKER_00: The model won't work for everyone,
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SPEAKER_00: but I can see it becoming something that works for both people and businesses.
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SPEAKER_00: It might require some professionalised union protections,
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SPEAKER_00: of course, but generally this might be the model.
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SPEAKER_00: But if it is,
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SPEAKER_00: and that is where we're heading,
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SPEAKER_00: and that's no sure thing,
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SPEAKER_00: then I think painful layoff stories,
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SPEAKER_00: well, painful layoff stories are going to continue.
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SPEAKER_00: This is going to be a long transition.
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SPEAKER_00: It's going to take a long time to get us to that place,
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SPEAKER_00: and yeah, I think that this might be part of it.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Now all of that, the price rise, the death of discs and job cuts, it is bleak, it's miserable.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: But change, change isn't always good, but good things do often come from it.
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SPEAKER_00: And it is inevitable.
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SPEAKER_00: And this industry remains a creative force, an entertainment leader.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: It's where Hollywood is going, you know, it's where they're turning because of our strong IP.
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SPEAKER_00: It's where other industries are learning,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: they're learning from us in terms of how to engage people and speak to audiences.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: And looking more immediately, you know, September looks really good.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: The lineup of games, the quality on show, October is also looking pretty good.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: November it's got one game in it but it looks pretty good um there are
7:24
SPEAKER_00: so many challenges but we will overcome it because we have to
7:29
SPEAKER_00: and we'll do it together that's what we're about
7:31
SPEAKER_00: The Game Business I'm I'm not jason schreier I'm not even steven tortillo we're not
7:37
SPEAKER_00: kotaku we're not ign they do their jobs exceptionally well it's important
7:41
SPEAKER_00: that they do but for tgb our job It's not to avoid the tough conversations,
7:47
SPEAKER_00: quite the opposite,
7:49
SPEAKER_00: but to tackle them in a way that's designed to move things on,
7:51
SPEAKER_00: to take a sort of more reasonable,
7:53
SPEAKER_00: pragmatic approach to what we're facing so we can all learn from it
7:56
SPEAKER_00: and be inspired together and hopefully find a sustainable way forward.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping we can get there.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm genuinely very grateful to all the industry leaders who have come on
8:06
SPEAKER_00: and just shared their thoughts in candid,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:09
SPEAKER_00: opinions and all sorts I hope to keep doing this for a long long long long time
8:13
SPEAKER_00: and you know those people make this job interesting and exciting
8:17
SPEAKER_00: and hopefully useful for you all and indeed I want
8:19
SPEAKER_00: to thank paying subscribers we don't have a lot but we have a good number
8:23
SPEAKER_00: and it's helping us to sort of plow forward with The Game Business so thank you
8:26
SPEAKER_00: for your support if you're not if you'd like to become
8:27
SPEAKER_00: a paid subscriber you can find out more at thegamebusiness.com Now today,
8:32
SPEAKER_00: we're going to tackle an altogether different conversation,
8:35
SPEAKER_00: although it does loosely tie to the physical disc story.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: It's around the Stop Killing Games campaign.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: You may have heard this name come up a few times now.
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SPEAKER_00: Stop Killing Games is a consumer movement that is largely concerned with preserving video games.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: It has expanded a bit from that.
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SPEAKER_00: It started in 2024 in response to Ubisoft shutting down The Crew.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a 12 year old racing game that requires a constant internet connection
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SPEAKER_00: to play, despite being mainly single player.
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SPEAKER_00: It's also most recently joined a lawsuit against PlayStation.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: It's digital pricing.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: That's the Dutch lawsuit that claims that PlayStation are a monopoly.
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SPEAKER_00: It's also taking issue with streaming technology.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: A lot of this is wrapped up in the conversation of game ownership,
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SPEAKER_00: preservation and consumer rights.
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SPEAKER_00: It has triggered responses,
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SPEAKER_00: particularly via petitions, both by the UK government and the European Union.
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SPEAKER_00: Industry trade bodies have got involved against this movement due
9:23
SPEAKER_00: to how complicated it is to keep games alive indefinitely.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And it's faced some defeats.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: The UK said it considered existing consumer protection laws sufficient.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: And just this June,
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SPEAKER_00: the European Commission ruled out proposing new legislation to legally mandate
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SPEAKER_00: that video game publishers keep discontinued games playable.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: And shortly after that,
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SPEAKER_00: a California bill called Protect Our Games Act,
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SPEAKER_00: which was backed by Stop Killing Games, failed to get through the state senate.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: So it keeps losing.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: Some small victories here and there, but it keeps losing.
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SPEAKER_00: And it is facing big opposition from major industry players.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: But why?
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Why?
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Why are we so against saving our games?
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Why is it so complicated?
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SPEAKER_00: Surely you want this art to kill you forever.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: To help me work this out and see if Stop Killing Games has any hope of success,
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SPEAKER_00: I had a chat with a real industry expert on video game policy.
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SPEAKER_00: She's been actively involved in conversations around Stop Killing Games
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SPEAKER_00: and is Director of Public Policy and Public Affairs at Flux Digital Policy.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Her name is Dr Celia Pontin and here she is.
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SPEAKER_00: Hello Celia, welcome to the show.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Hi, thank you for having me.
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SPEAKER_00: Now, I think it's important to say up front,
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SPEAKER_00: you're generally pro-preservation,
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SPEAKER_00: you're sort of sympathetic to what the Stop Killing Games campaign's about,
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SPEAKER_00: that's right.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah,
10:33
SPEAKER_01: I understand people's passions behind it and That they want to continue playing
10:38
SPEAKER_01: a game that they have particularly loved or enjoyed and invested time in.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: And I can see exactly why that is important to an awful lot of people.
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SPEAKER_00: Because when we start getting into some of the challenges,
10:48
SPEAKER_00: they may sound like we're being down on it.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think in various trade body meetings and that kind of thing,
10:54
SPEAKER_00: have you been involved in those conversations and stuff?
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there are a lot of conversations happening around this at a policy level,
11:01
SPEAKER_01: and I've been lucky enough to be part of those.
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SPEAKER_01: And it is,
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's a mark of how seriously it is being taken and that it's not just
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SPEAKER_01: a side issue that's being punted away.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
11:11
SPEAKER_01: people are talking about this and are really trying to find the way forward
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SPEAKER_01: that works practically and legally and gives the industry
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SPEAKER_01: on both sides what it needs.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, this ties into what I was going to ask because I'm surprised
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SPEAKER_00: to see trade body statements around this issue.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm surprised that it's not being just pushed away and ignored.
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SPEAKER_00: Why is the industry,
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SPEAKER_00: why are game publishers,
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SPEAKER_00: why are trade bodies not ignoring it and pushing it under the carpet?
11:38
SPEAKER_01: I think they are engaging with it Seriously and I think fairly intensely because
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SPEAKER_01: the campaign has been very vocal across multiple jurisdictions.
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SPEAKER_01: And so it's not like this is just an American issue and we don't hear about it
11:54
SPEAKER_01: the UK or it's not just an EU one.
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SPEAKER_01: It's being shared everywhere.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: Particularly in those three areas.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: And so it's hard to escape and it's not something that you can really back away from.
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SPEAKER_01: It's also gaining momentum as a talking point,
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SPEAKER_01: not necessarily on one side or the other,
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SPEAKER_01: but as something that's in the more general public consciousness because it speaks
12:17
SPEAKER_01: to a move towards a digital learning culture and that's not just games.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: It's also music, it's also film, ebooks, things like that.
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SPEAKER_01: This is something that we are moving towards as a society when it comes
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SPEAKER_01: to how we intake our culture and our media and our inputs.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: And so,
12:37
SPEAKER_01: although games are kind of at the forefront of it in terms of what's happening
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SPEAKER_01: in public commentary, but like you said, they're not just pushing it away.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: They do seem to be trying to counter it.
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SPEAKER_00: They seem worried.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: That's where I'm coming from,
12:52
SPEAKER_00: that Stop Killing Games is calling for legislation, they're calling for change.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: And the reaction of the publishers seems to suggest they're worried that
12:57
SPEAKER_00: that might happen if they're not careful.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: And so is that... You're nodding your head.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, everyone in every industry is worried about new legislation because it's
13:11
SPEAKER_01: a big unknown, right?
13:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, so whenever there is.
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SPEAKER_01: New legislation on anything on the horizon,
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SPEAKER_01: then people start getting a little bit concerned because there's a little bit of
13:23
SPEAKER_01: a better the devil you know thing that happens within regulation.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the concerns that you see is a mismatch between what
13:37
SPEAKER_01: the public might be calling for And what is possible,
13:41
SPEAKER_01: not necessarily just technologically,
13:44
SPEAKER_01: although there are some barriers there,
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SPEAKER_01: but also when it comes to how existing legislation works,
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SPEAKER_01: whether that's consumer protection or IP law,
13:53
SPEAKER_01: as well as the practical implementation of it.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: So there might be some ideal solution being touted by some of
14:02
SPEAKER_01: the really engaged players in this space, but that might not actually work out.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: And so if That were to be legislated for,
14:11
SPEAKER_01: then you could have this real tension of something having been called for
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SPEAKER_01: and supposedly supported,
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SPEAKER_01: but actually the industry gets caught in the middle having to deliver something
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SPEAKER_01: that might not actually really work in practice.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think that can be a real concern to them.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Let's dive into it.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: This seems more like a consumer rights issue, right?
14:29
SPEAKER_00: This is really what we're talking about here.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Are consumer rights being violated here?
14:33
SPEAKER_01: In that area, it's very...
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Case by case and specific, right?
14:39
SPEAKER_01: And so it would be hard to call that one way or another in general.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: What I would say is that there are existing protections, and actually that's kind of a point.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, are consumer rights being violated?
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, they already exist to be violated, if that makes sense.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: There is already a framework.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: For dealing with these sorts of things about contracts having to be delivered
15:03
SPEAKER_01: as laid out in terms of service and things like that and
15:06
SPEAKER_01: whether what you have been provided as digital content or a digital service,
15:11
SPEAKER_01: whether that matches up to your expectations and to what was promised.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: So I think there are aspects of that and the EU and I think
15:20
SPEAKER_01: the UK have called those out,
15:21
SPEAKER_01: but there are aspects of those that already exist
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SPEAKER_01: and actually already provide what's being asked for.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, because this gets down to it, right?
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Stop Killing Games is arguing that when you buy a copy of a game, you should own it.
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SPEAKER_00: But that's never been the case, has it?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: That's not even been the case when you bought a physical disc,
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SPEAKER_00: even if in practicality you do own it, right?
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Technically you don't, is that right?
15:46
SPEAKER_01: It's the niche thing for me to just call to mind,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: but when you used to play a DVD,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: and therefore you had to watch the beginning bit where it said,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: like, what the rights were, I think, because if you was the holder of this DVD.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: Because you couldn't skip things back in those days.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: You would have to read the bit that said it's not licensed for distribution or for showing.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's usually prisons and schools are mentioned,
16:14
SPEAKER_01: which as an ex-teacher, I very much appreciate that equivalence.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: And you would, so, because you were being given a license to use it, like, it was personal use.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: You weren't supposed to be,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: like, showing it to make money out of screening it or something like that, right?
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Because it was a license to be able to use this bit
16:33
SPEAKER_01: of media That's just what I remember as a really concrete example of this.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: But games have those as well.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
16:41
SPEAKER_01: you can't really revoke someone's copy of a PS1 game without going into their house
16:49
SPEAKER_01: and taking it away from them, which does seem a bit over the top.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: But it's nonetheless a bit more complicated than just, I have this disc and it is mine.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, there's the technicality and then the...
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And the reality, you know, people did sell their games.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: In fact, there was even an entire mechanism set up around doing that.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, this all comes from the crew, right?
17:09
SPEAKER_00: It all comes from, it started there, the game came offline, it's no longer accessible.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: There is,
17:15
SPEAKER_00: of course,
17:16
SPEAKER_00: their call for why couldn't they just give that to the players
17:18
SPEAKER_00: or why couldn't they make that available in other ways?
17:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is where we get down into the complications around IP and all sorts of stuff.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: This is quite a big question,
17:27
SPEAKER_00: but there are quite a few legal barriers to necessarily being able to do that,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: right?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes, quite a few.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: So I think firstly,
17:38
SPEAKER_01: there are barriers in terms of intellectual property law,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: and this is something that was directly cited by the European Commission recently.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: So they commented on whether or not they were going
17:49
SPEAKER_01: to immediately pursue New legislation,
17:52
SPEAKER_01: for example,
17:54
SPEAKER_01: to deal with this,
17:54
SPEAKER_01: and that came as a result of the Stop Killing Games campaign getting a bunch
17:58
SPEAKER_01: of signatures and having a debate in the EU.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: So they directly called out IP law, and it's the same in the UK as well, broadly speaking.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Now, here's a caveat.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a lawyer.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Seek legal advice if you're affected by these issues.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: But it's not straightforward when it comes to video games because they are a...
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Instead of being one single item that has one kind
18:26
SPEAKER_01: of intellectual property right associated with it,
18:30
SPEAKER_01: it is this like bundle and cloud miasma
18:34
SPEAKER_01: of all these interconnecting different tiny bits of copyright works, okay?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: It's not just one thing,
18:41
SPEAKER_01: it is the script and the voiceover and the graphics,
18:45
SPEAKER_01: sometimes even frame by frame, right?
18:47
SPEAKER_01: It's this big old bundle.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: And that means that if you are talking about handing over a game to the fans,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: that's not really a very straightforward way of thinking about it in certain aspects
19:00
SPEAKER_01: of the law, right?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: So although in consumer protection law,
19:03
SPEAKER_01: you know, if you're being sold a game, you're being sold a game.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: That's not how it works in other areas of regulation.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's hard for people who have never come across this idea before
19:14
SPEAKER_01: to really Immediately get that it's not some kind of kicking it down the road,
19:20
SPEAKER_01: free pass argument.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: It is genuinely something that adds a lot of complication
19:26
SPEAKER_01: because you might not actually,
19:30
SPEAKER_01: as a company,
19:31
SPEAKER_01: be legally able to hand that stuff over even if you wanted to,
19:35
SPEAKER_01: because it might not all be yours.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: But even if it were,
19:39
SPEAKER_01: there's a certain degree to which you might question
19:42
SPEAKER_01: whether someone can be compelled to do something with intellectual property
19:47
SPEAKER_01: that they hold the rights to.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, that it is their thing.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: So you have that aspect.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: That's a barrier to it.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: And it is one that looks simple on paper when you say,
19:59
SPEAKER_01: well, just get someone the IP or we're not asking for rights over it.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, it's not that straightforward.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: But you also have Technical barriers when it comes to the integration
20:11
SPEAKER_01: of third party services and platforms and things.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And so obviously there are technical issues with that and how you hand over maybe
20:20
SPEAKER_01: the contracts or the way that those plug in and integrate with certain features
20:25
SPEAKER_01: of your game.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: But there is also the idea of, well, who has liability for third party?
20:31
SPEAKER_01: No longer provides their services, right?
20:33
SPEAKER_01: So if I,
20:34
SPEAKER_01: as a game creator,
20:35
SPEAKER_01: want to sunset my game and I hand it over to the fans,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I might have this web underneath of different third-party services to do things
20:43
SPEAKER_01: that I haven't done myself.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And fine, I could maybe hand over the arrangements if I could get that worked out.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: But then if one of those services goes under or they're bought out
20:56
SPEAKER_01: or they just cease to exist for whatever reason,
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Then what happens to the game that was dependent on them?
21:03
SPEAKER_01: You know,
21:03
SPEAKER_01: that then has a weakness to it that means that
21:07
SPEAKER_01: that still might not be persistently available.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And does that third party service have any obligations in this?
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And again,
21:13
SPEAKER_01: it starts to get quite complicated and it's another,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: you can't just hand this over to someone else.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: What is not easily?
21:22
SPEAKER_00: No.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Some instances you probably can,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: but it's just, it's not a case that it's always
21:28
SPEAKER_00: In some instances, that happens.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: I guess there's also the thing that I think someone said it to me before was like,
21:34
SPEAKER_00: what happens if you've got a license for a song?
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's a car game.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a license to a certain type of car.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: And that license is for 10 years for a set period of time and you've handed it over
21:44
SPEAKER_00: to someone else.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, those licensing agreements that might expire.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Is this amateur group, maybe,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: let's say,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: of people who are looking after the game know they have to take this out of
21:53
SPEAKER_00: the game?
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And then who's liable if they don't?
21:56
SPEAKER_01: And there are other liabilities if you've got,
21:59
SPEAKER_01: and of course we are mainly talking about multiplayer and live service games.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: I know there are some questions over single player that's got Always Online and
22:08
SPEAKER_01: whether that's necessary,
22:10
SPEAKER_01: and that's kind of its own thing,
22:11
SPEAKER_01: but overwhelmingly we're talking about multiplayer or live service.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: When you take over that,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: you may well find that you have regulatory obligations
22:22
SPEAKER_01: under things like Ofcom's Online Safety Act implementation, right?
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Or if you've got player chat,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: that could well be subject to age restrictions from Maybe spring onwards,
22:36
SPEAKER_01: all that stuff's kind of up in the air at the moment and whether it would apply,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: but it's an example of where you could have some obligation suddenly that you,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: depending on how you structure a takeover,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: you could end up being responsible for in quite a big way.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how...
22:56
SPEAKER_01: Cognizant people are of that,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: necessarily,
22:59
SPEAKER_01: and how serious that could be and how much work it could be,
23:03
SPEAKER_01: even if they were willing and able to take it on.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: All sorts of GDPR even.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: All of that.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: And they have to be compliant with all of these things.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And if you're just a group of people that are doing it in your spare time,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: who are on a games forum, that's like you're running a business.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you basically said a moment ago that if they own an IP,
23:19
SPEAKER_00: they don't have to release it, right?
23:21
SPEAKER_00: They don't have to put it out there.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: This is an example of a game that isn't,
23:24
SPEAKER_00: it is an online game,
23:25
SPEAKER_00: but when Nintendo did the Super Mario 35 game for the 35th anniversary of Mario,
23:30
SPEAKER_00: They said it was going to be available for six months.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, part of the subscription service.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And after six months, it doesn't exist anymore.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: The game's gone.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: And that is in a way what the Stop Killing Games is about.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: We don't want you to do that.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: But from Nintendo's point of view,
23:43
SPEAKER_00: that was specifically created to celebrate the 35th anniversary of Mario.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: And from their point of view, it's not the 35th anniversary of Mario anymore.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: The game shouldn't exist anymore.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: It was designed for being a moment in time.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's because they are free to do with their IP as they want.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And I guess that's, you can't force people to release stuff or do these things, I guess.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's where maybe some of these ambitions are going to run
24:09
SPEAKER_00: into some brick walls, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a question, was it?
24:17
SPEAKER_00: I was actually just trying to look up,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: there was a game that was released on the Nintendo website for the Wii,
24:21
SPEAKER_00: and it was like a Christmas game.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And the idea was you unlocked something every day as a Christmas advent calendar,
24:25
SPEAKER_00: it was done by a marketing agency.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: And I really read the story recently, I thought it was fascinating.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And that game, of course, when the Christmas was over, it stopped existing.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: But the marketing agency got the rights from the game from Nintendo
24:37
SPEAKER_00: and actually re-released the thing and continued it.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Nothing to do with what we're talking about.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of cool though.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know about that.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm looking...
24:44
SPEAKER_00: I was trying to...
24:44
SPEAKER_00: I should have done it before I started the podcast.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: It's a wee Christmas browser game.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: There was a whole article about somebody who was their favourite game they played
24:53
SPEAKER_00: over Christmas.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I'll put it in the newsletter.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: Those that want to know what that is, but it does exist.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: They have made it and they've obviously removed some of the Nintendo bits.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Is commitment to a minimum,
25:04
SPEAKER_00: if a game company said, look,
25:05
SPEAKER_00: we're going to make this online service game,
25:07
SPEAKER_00: it is online,
25:07
SPEAKER_00: it is connected,
25:10
SPEAKER_00: is saying we can guarantee you this will be available for six, seven, eight, nine,
25:14
SPEAKER_00: ten years,
25:15
SPEAKER_00: is that a potential, it's not a solution, but is it a potential middle ground?
25:19
SPEAKER_01: I think it depends on how it's communicated and what expectations are.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I think in the example you gave,
25:26
SPEAKER_01: a very short-lived,
25:28
SPEAKER_01: effectively promotional game,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: that's one context where It is intended to be available for this short period
25:36
SPEAKER_01: of time, and people are aware.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit like having a limited edition of something, right?
25:41
SPEAKER_01: You've only got this amount of time to visit
25:44
SPEAKER_01: the Natural History Museum Pokemon pop-up shop,
25:47
SPEAKER_00: and once it's gone, it's gone.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: It's still on, I think.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I was, you know, early doors on that.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Me too.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: So much money.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Spent so much money.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: But if it's a game that's going to be,
26:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:04
SPEAKER_01: it's just marketed as a game,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: then you would expect it to be running for
26:11
SPEAKER_00: longer than just a few months, for sure.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: But guaranteeing a specific amount of time Wouldn't necessarily be at odds
26:21
SPEAKER_01: with consumer rights, you know, if it forms part of the material information.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: If it is indeed something that is going to be available for that certain amount
26:31
SPEAKER_01: of time,
26:32
SPEAKER_01: then depending Depending on the context,
26:34
SPEAKER_01: that could be something that consumers need to know before they decide whether
26:38
SPEAKER_01: or not to purchase that product or to engage with it,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: because it could apply to free-to-play as well,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: because it's about whether you engage with the commercial decision rather than
26:47
SPEAKER_01: when you actually buy something.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if it answers the question of some of the people
26:56
SPEAKER_01: who are raising concerns,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: because some of the asks of Some of
27:02
SPEAKER_01: the Stop Killing Games campaign have been around being playable in perpetuity
27:07
SPEAKER_01: and being able to be handed over.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: And so there is a question over whether saying that it's going to be available for
27:15
SPEAKER_01: a minimum period, whether that addresses that side of it.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a couple of different things going on within the same umbrella.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And some of it is about whether it continues to be available and some of it is
27:28
SPEAKER_01: whether about you know what you're getting when you buy it.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: I think there are difficulties with minimum commitment periods in terms of
27:37
SPEAKER_01: whether you can guarantee that that's going to be available.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've talked before about third party services or whether there could be hiccups in it.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: I think it's going to be more manageable for some games than for others.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: But you tend to have to have a principle of the law is the law
27:56
SPEAKER_01: or regulations are regulations or enforcement is enforcement.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: For everyone,
28:01
SPEAKER_01: and I would be wary of whether a small indie developer can necessarily make
28:09
SPEAKER_01: the same kind of commitment as someone who's got maybe a simpler game
28:13
SPEAKER_01: or is more experienced or is larger, right?
28:16
SPEAKER_01: I think it needs to be done under the context of will it work and is it feasible?
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Kind of how you can like force that into law or legislation that has to be available
28:27
SPEAKER_00: for a certain amount of time either because whatever company doesn't,
28:30
SPEAKER_00: you know, as you said, things get turned off, companies go bust.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: I've just been linked to it by the way,
28:34
SPEAKER_00: the game I was talking about was Mission in Snowdrift Land.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Which is a Nintendo and German advent calendar to promote the Wii that turned into
28:42
SPEAKER_00: a game that exists.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, just deviating off a little bit.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: What makes this look more topical at the moment is that there's this talk around
28:50
SPEAKER_00: the end of physical games, certainly on PlayStation.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: Is that putting even more momentum behind this Stop Killing Games campaign?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Because I guess that is something these games are now tied to us,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: you know, digital stores and services.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: I think it is being talked about in those circles.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: I've definitely seen people posting about it in stock in the game spaces online
29:15
SPEAKER_01: and talking about it.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's been interesting looking at those discussions because there is a mix
29:21
SPEAKER_01: of people saying that The digital learning distribution is very linked
29:25
SPEAKER_01: to Stocktonic Games because of that kind of ephemeral feeling about it.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: But then,
29:33
SPEAKER_01: on the other hand,
29:33
SPEAKER_01: there are some people saying,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: well, we get why this is linked, but it isn't the same kind of thing.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: And we don't want to detract from the ultimate aim of this.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think their point of view on that is because an awful lot
29:51
SPEAKER_01: of people Buy games digitally, even if they are available in physical formats.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: And so it's already a live issue when it comes to digital distribution, right?
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Like the conversation is already happening.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: I do think this has kind of pushed it up a little bit as well,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: but it's not the, it's not the thing that has put this on the agenda.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: I also,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: I also think it highlights kind of where there's an overlap between digital only
30:26
SPEAKER_01: and physical distribution in that there's,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: the code in a box,
30:32
SPEAKER_01: like approach to physical distribution,
30:33
SPEAKER_01: where you are getting a box and you can buy it from,
30:36
SPEAKER_01: I'd say Toys R Us, and then I realized that hasn't existed for a very long time.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: It exists within WH Smith.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, TG Jones.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: I've lost track.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Sad.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm now firmly aboard Smith's Toy Superstore.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: But you can go and you can physically buy it,
30:52
SPEAKER_01: but actually you're not buying the disk to go in the machine, right?
30:57
SPEAKER_01: It's an access code, effectively like a Steam key, right?
31:02
SPEAKER_01: So sure, that's physical distribution, but it is also, in a sense, a digital distribution.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: And so it's...
31:12
SPEAKER_01: It's one of those areas where things are a little bit messy and mixed together at the moment.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: And in due course, I mean, eventually everything's going to be digital only distribution.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just a case of when that happens and in what format.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a weird, I mean, I've got my views on it.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm a bit surprised that they're stopping disc production entirely.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I always think there's going to be always a group of people that will happily spend
31:34
SPEAKER_00: over the odds for physical items.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Even if it's a small industry, I think there is still an industry for that.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess the concern from From a consumer point of view is the same concern that,
31:43
SPEAKER_00: you know, you could switch it off.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: For example,
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Nintendo has these things called the key cards which are a bit like code in the box
31:47
SPEAKER_00: but work better in the sense that you can still lend your friend the game
31:51
SPEAKER_00: and they put it in their machine and they can download it and play it just
31:53
SPEAKER_00: as they would in the other game but it still requires download of it.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: If there's a time in the future when that store gets turned off or that ability
31:59
SPEAKER_00: to download that game gets turned off,
32:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that physical item that you bought is It's not useless
32:04
SPEAKER_00: because you might have downloaded it onto a hard drive somewhere,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: but you can't use it anymore.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: You can't move it on a different device,
32:09
SPEAKER_00: a different machine, and that's part of that preservation calling.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: What I can't see from this, talking about this, I don't know what the solution is.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that can be done?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Is this the Stop Killing Games campaign destined to fail?
32:21
SPEAKER_00: It feels like there's too many reasons why this can't win.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: That's a really big question.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: The impression I get from publishers,
32:29
SPEAKER_00: I think consumers have a certain impression,
32:31
SPEAKER_00: and I completely understand that impression, that publishers don't care.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: They're laughing maniacally as they turn off their games,
32:36
SPEAKER_00: going, haha, you can't play this anymore.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: They don't want to do that.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: They don't want these games to fail.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: They want them to live forever.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: There is costs involved and there is,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: resources involved and there's difficult things and all that kind of stuff.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: But they would love there to be a way that they,
32:50
SPEAKER_00: I guess, a framework to go, right, how do we do this?
32:54
SPEAKER_00: And I always get the impression as well,
32:56
SPEAKER_00: speaking to certain developers,
32:57
SPEAKER_00: they are increasingly thinking about What if or when does this game ends?
33:02
SPEAKER_00: What do we do?
33:03
SPEAKER_00: What happens to it?
33:04
SPEAKER_00: So they're trying to work those plans into the beginning.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: But obviously for some games it's a case of we can package it up
33:10
SPEAKER_00: and make it available open source.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: And some people it's a case of well maybe we can I can take off all
33:15
SPEAKER_00: the offline modes and make it available as a standalone single player experience.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: It's going to depend on the game.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: And there's no legislation, there's no one rule that will fit all that.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: I do get the impression the industry is now thinking about it more.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: But from sort of a legal and legislative point of view,
33:30
SPEAKER_00: I can't see an avenue here that doesn't conflict with all
33:33
SPEAKER_00: the various different rights and IP law and all sorts.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: So I think when it comes to the arguments around IP,
33:44
SPEAKER_01: It is very complicated,
33:46
SPEAKER_01: but also,
33:48
SPEAKER_01: really, really importantly, it is linked to international distribution, right?
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Like,
33:55
SPEAKER_01: every country in a jurisdiction or group of jurisdictions have their approaches
34:01
SPEAKER_01: and their law, but there are, you know, interlinks between them.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: And again, very complicated subject.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: And if you were going to change something in one country,
34:11
SPEAKER_01: the ripples outwards and how that then changes and functions would be enormous.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is an area where change would have to be on a systemic level
34:23
SPEAKER_01: and it would have to be For a reason and on its own merits.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it would be really hard to justify...
34:31
SPEAKER_01: I think the European Commission kind of basically said this reading between the lines.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: It would be really hard to justify A change to that mechanism and to that kind
34:42
SPEAKER_01: of web of international approaches for this
34:47
SPEAKER_01: when there are already consumer rights protections for contracts and services
34:53
SPEAKER_01: and your expectations and the way it's sold to you and the rights that you have and
34:57
SPEAKER_01: the contracts that you sign.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: So I think that the consumer protection avenue would be a much more likely avenue
35:06
SPEAKER_01: to be pursued if regulations were going to change on this and
35:11
SPEAKER_01: if regulatory priorities changed.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: On that side of things though,
35:18
SPEAKER_01: you've also got to consider whether things,
35:22
SPEAKER_01: so whether games already exist and how those could be impacted.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: In general, you Tend not to have things that are retroactively applied.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: This is a very broad and heavily caveated statement because there may be instances
35:36
SPEAKER_01: where particularly live games are expected to fall in line with things like
35:41
SPEAKER_01: the Online Safety Act, right?
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Like Opcom enforce it as it's a service,
35:47
SPEAKER_01: so you have to be making changes to it to make it comply
35:50
SPEAKER_01: with your regulatory requirements.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: But there are other aspects where, well,
35:57
SPEAKER_01: If you've created a game that's made in this way that couldn't be passed on,
36:02
SPEAKER_01: it would be really hard to justify changing regulations or changing the law to say,
36:07
SPEAKER_01: oh, well, you now have to recreate it in this way so that you can pass it on.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: So I think there are always going to be things that can't be retroactively moved
36:17
SPEAKER_01: into a always available in perpetuity kind of model if it doesn't already suit it.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: But you also have to think about what does available,
36:26
SPEAKER_01: what does continuing to be available look like and what does it mean
36:30
SPEAKER_01: and what standards do players set for that and is playable the same for one person
36:36
SPEAKER_01: as it is for the other and is playable the same for one kind of game than it is
36:40
SPEAKER_01: for another.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: If I can play a multiplayer game by myself, Right?
36:45
SPEAKER_01: In an open world, but no one else is there.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: Is that playable?
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Or is it only playable if there is the live service aspect where I can be matched
36:54
SPEAKER_01: with other people?
36:55
SPEAKER_01: And then you have to start figuring out how legislation would work
36:59
SPEAKER_01: for different scenarios and how it would account for the vast variability both
37:03
SPEAKER_01: in game genre and in player expectations of those.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: And in some instances,
37:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that there is one solution that would work even if there were
37:11
SPEAKER_01: a legislative appetite to do so.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: It's really complicated.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, this is what I'm getting from it.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: And there's also different types of companies.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: Destiny is a game that's not being updated anymore and you can foresee a future
37:25
SPEAKER_00: where they go, it's costing us money, we're going to close it down.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: And it might be a situation there where fans can Spin up some servers and run
37:35
SPEAKER_00: the game themselves, look after the game themselves.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: And because it's Sony,
37:38
SPEAKER_00: it's Bungie,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: because they're a big company,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: they've got money,
37:40
SPEAKER_00: they can go, well,
37:41
SPEAKER_00: we can afford to have a very low level oversight on this to make sure,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: you know, it's all above board and everything's fine and kosher.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: A smaller company who's maybe spun up,
37:52
SPEAKER_00: there was somebody,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: my sales guy, George,
37:55
SPEAKER_00: his daughter,
37:56
SPEAKER_00: loved an online so-called game community thing and they've just closed it down
38:01
SPEAKER_00: and she was apparently devastated and somebody's found an old version of it
38:05
SPEAKER_00: and they've spun it all up.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: But that sounds like a small company where fans have basically just taken the code.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: And done their thing with it.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's a very different world.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't sound to me like this is something that legislation can fix
38:17
SPEAKER_00: or legal requirements can fix.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just something the industry almost needs to say, stop killing games.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Noted.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: We've heard this and we'll do our best.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: But I guess there's trust there, right?
38:29
SPEAKER_00: And there's always a lack of it.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Do we trust you?
38:32
SPEAKER_00: And maybe part of it is just Making consumers aware
38:36
SPEAKER_00: that this online game they've played may eventually not exist anymore.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's an awareness thing and an education thing.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: I think there is something to be said for the awareness bit as well.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: And if nothing else,
38:48
SPEAKER_01: I think the campaign has highlighted both for games specifically,
38:52
SPEAKER_01: but also I think,
38:53
SPEAKER_01: like I mentioned earlier,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: media more broadly, that when it comes to Digital media of certain types.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not about whether you are purchasing the media,
39:04
SPEAKER_01: it's you are purchasing access to it, for example, and how that functions.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: And you'll see that some platforms are putting on there quite clearly
39:15
SPEAKER_01: that you're purchasing a license.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think it is becoming more and more well known and well understood,
39:22
SPEAKER_01: particularly as a result of this.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: I do wonder,
39:26
SPEAKER_01: this is me as a millennial sitting here saying, well,
39:30
SPEAKER_01: that Gen Z,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: but genuinely,
39:34
SPEAKER_01: I do wonder if Gen Z are going to have less of a problem with this
39:38
SPEAKER_01: because this is just how a lot of things work now.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: I have this thing where when I was young,
39:48
SPEAKER_00: and I guess when you were young as well,
39:50
SPEAKER_00: younger,
39:51
SPEAKER_00: not saying we're old,
39:53
SPEAKER_00: there wasn't a lot of stuff,
39:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:55
SPEAKER_00: things like I didn't have access to every single TV show in the world immediately.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm going to do.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: A collection of DVDs is almost non-existent.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Every now and again,
40:21
SPEAKER_00: I might have the urge to watch an old classic that I can't get access to,
40:24
SPEAKER_00: isn't on one of the services.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: But those aren't very regular moments for me.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you're in a generation where you've got so much Entertainment just
40:34
SPEAKER_00: at your fingertips.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can't.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that film isn't available anymore.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: There's about a billion others you can watch instead.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: That, I think, changes the motivation.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it just limits stuff.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: You've got access to so much great stuff as well that suddenly the fact
40:51
SPEAKER_00: that something from years and years ago isn't available anymore isn't so much of
40:55
SPEAKER_00: an issue.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: I also think preservation today isn't...
40:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm a Doctor Who fan.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: And in the 60s and 70s,
41:02
SPEAKER_00: 60s in particular, like hundreds of Doctor Who episodes were set on fire, right?
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Put in a furnace that don't exist anymore.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: And there's treasure hunters that go around the world to like TV stations in Africa
41:12
SPEAKER_00: to see if they've got old reels of this old destroyed episode of Doctor Who.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: When they find one, it becomes headline news, right?
41:19
SPEAKER_00: It's like we found the episode of the Dalek episode.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: That was last year, I think.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: That happens.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: And in games today, they are preserved on laptops.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: They are preserved in private collections.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: They do exist still.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: They can come back out.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: It's obviously clear an issue for a certain group of people,
41:34
SPEAKER_00: but I do think it's quite a small vocal group of people.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: And I think, I'll be clear, I like buying physical goods.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: I like having my collections, but I haven't bought a CD in years.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: I own fewer than a dozen CDs and they're all in the glove box in my car
41:48
SPEAKER_01: because that's the only CD player I own.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: And I haven't had a disk drive in my computer for about 13 years.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: So the, uh, yeah,
41:59
SPEAKER_01: physical media definitely is, has a different place in my life than it used to.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: If I want to listen to something I can listen to at any time for the thing.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: And even if I can't listen to it, I can listen to every other song in the world.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's, um,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: and so it's,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: uh, it, you know, I still wanna, I am of a generation that likes physical.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: I still buy all my Nintendo games in box form, even though it's cheaper to buy them digitally.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: No, but I do as well.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why that's the one that I do.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: Everything else is digital.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know why.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: I know, actually,
42:33
SPEAKER_00: and I have a practical reason today is my six,
42:35
SPEAKER_00: nearly seven-year-old plays on the Switch 2 and I play a game and I like being able
42:40
SPEAKER_00: to just unplug it,
42:41
SPEAKER_00: plug it into his and he can play it without having to work out,
42:44
SPEAKER_00: hang on, is the account connected?
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Can I share my digital code license?
42:48
SPEAKER_00: And that's quite messy.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, have I missed anything?
42:52
SPEAKER_00: Is there any other complications?
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's something that's missed per se,
42:57
SPEAKER_01: but something that I'm quite keen to have stated reasonably clearly,
43:04
SPEAKER_01: which is that a lot of this is complicated,
43:07
SPEAKER_01: particularly when you are trying to apply a solution across
43:11
SPEAKER_01: a really diverse industry and diverse in terms of the types of game there are,
43:16
SPEAKER_01: not just genres,
43:17
SPEAKER_01: but whether they're,
43:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:19
SPEAKER_01: multiplayer or single player or required lobbies or,
43:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:23
SPEAKER_01: Server architecture and the technology that lies behind that,
43:26
SPEAKER_01: but also the sorts of companies that you have from like one or two people studios
43:30
SPEAKER_01: through to multi-billion dollar companies with thousands and thousands of staff.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: Trying to get to a point where you have a solution that works across that
43:44
SPEAKER_01: and including across the diversity of what people will think of as what it means
43:48
SPEAKER_01: to play a game and to be able to access it,
43:50
SPEAKER_01: I think that's That's a really tall order,
43:54
SPEAKER_01: and it's not necessarily something where you can suggest a neat solution,
44:01
SPEAKER_01: particularly if you have to take into account a patchwork of overlapping
44:07
SPEAKER_01: and also dependent bits of regulation across different jurisdictions.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: And I think there is sometimes a cynicism that when particularly a big company says,
44:20
SPEAKER_01: That something can't be done, right?
44:22
SPEAKER_01: There's a level of cynicism in people to think,
44:25
SPEAKER_01: well, you would say that because it's commercially convenient for you to say that.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: And there are times when something that may be commercially convenient may also be true.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's really important to recognize and that it is also sometimes true for
44:41
SPEAKER_01: the little studios as well as true for the big studios and that we need to make sure
44:45
SPEAKER_01: that their voices don't get lost in the mix as well and that you're not going
44:50
SPEAKER_01: to end up putting out suggestions that would perhaps work to get what you want for
44:58
SPEAKER_01: a big game and then stifle innovation because a small studio thinks
45:02
SPEAKER_01: that they can't Engage with that process to a sufficient degree to be able to know
45:08
SPEAKER_01: that their game does what it needs to do if it comes to the end of its life.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: You want to make sure that you've got an ecosystem that is going to work
45:15
SPEAKER_01: and support new talent and new sorts of games and new things that work rather
45:21
SPEAKER_01: than stifle them.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Celia, thank you so much for your insight.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: I'll let you get back to your important policy work.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: I won't bore you about Nintendo advent calendar games anymore.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm very glad you did.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: It was lovely.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Thank you to Celia there for joining us.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: It is a really tough conversation ultimately.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: No developer wants to kill their games and we don't want unhappy fans
45:46
SPEAKER_00: so hopefully we can find a way forward that can satisfy as many people as possible.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: All that's left me to do is to wrap up the news from
45:52
SPEAKER_00: the last week except we weren't here last week so we're going to wrap up the news
45:54
SPEAKER_00: for the last two weeks.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of news so bear with us.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: Let's start with news that's a bit more recent.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to start with Remedy's financials.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Remedy, we feature them a lot on the show, so I thought it'd be good to start with them.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: Their Q2 revenue hit 10.2 million euros,
46:08
SPEAKER_00: which is down 40% year on year, had an operating loss of 3.9 million euros.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: For the half year, sales were down 23% and losses hit 2.9 million euros.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: Part of the decline is due to the gain FBC firebreak.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: That came out in the same quarter last year.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: And even though it didn't do as well as people hoped or Remedy hoped,
46:26
SPEAKER_00: it nevertheless was in that quarter.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: The firm is building up to some big launches,
46:31
SPEAKER_00: well one particular big launch, Control Resonant is out in September.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: It launches in a very competitive market,
46:36
SPEAKER_00: you might be a bit nervous about that,
46:38
SPEAKER_00: but it has attracted a large number of Steam wishlists,
46:41
SPEAKER_00: 1.5 million, and the game looks great.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: If it wasn't going up against Wolverine,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: I'd feel a lot more confident about it, but hopefully it will do well.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: It certainly looks great.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: And again, that has started to do pretty well with Alan Wake 2.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: The game has now sold 3 million copies worldwide.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: It's not a huge number.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: I think it should be doing better than that, but it is profitable.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: It's a profitable game and hopefully we'll see more from Alan in the future.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: Sticking with financial, Square Enix has had a strong Q1.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: Profit rose 175.5% to $83 million.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: A number of titles helped it achieve that.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: The big one though was Final Fantasy VII Rebirth,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: which arrived on Nintendo Switch 2 and on Xbox formats in June.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: The game initially launched on PS5 in February 2024 and PC in January 2025.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: Square Enix also saw an uptick in users for its MMO,
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Final Fantasy XIV, so some decent numbers there.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: Sticking with Japanese companies,
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Bandai Namco, its digital segment, which includes games, did have a bit of a drop.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: 15.6% decline to $573 million.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: Profit fell 30.19% to $94.5 million.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: This was due to there being no major PC or console release in the quarter.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: This time last year it had Elden Ring Night Reign in that quarter,
47:47
SPEAKER_00: which did quite well for them.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: It has some promising titles coming up.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: Ace Combat 8, which is out in October, has had some real good buzz around it.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: It's got some decent numbers.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: They've got a new Dragon Ball game coming out as well.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: It's also handling the publishing of a promising RPG called Blood of the Dawnwalker.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: That's also out in September.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: So some big titles coming out from Bandai Namco.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: Sega, they didn't have a big game in Q1 either,
48:07
SPEAKER_00: but actually it did a little better than expected.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Sales increased slightly to $432 million.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: Sega's bigger titles are due later in the year.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: They've got Stranger Than Heaven and Persona 4 Revival coming out in sort of the early 2027.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Other upcoming titles include Alien Isolation 2,
48:23
SPEAKER_00: Crazy Taxi World Tour, Total War, Warhammer 40,000 and Virtual Fighter.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: All of them will be in the next financial year or beyond,
48:29
SPEAKER_00: but there are quite a lot of games coming to Sega.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: And as an old school Sega fan, I'm looking forward to playing those.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Moving away from financials,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: at least for a little while,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: Ampere Analysis shared some interesting data on LinkedIn that I really want
48:41
SPEAKER_00: to draw your attention to.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: It's about Resident Evil Requiem.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: The game's physical share of sales up to the end of June differs from a little
48:47
SPEAKER_00: over 10% to more than 50% in some territories.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: What that means is in the US, 22% of Resident Evil Requiem's sales were physical.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: In France, it was 55%.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: In Japan, 51%, 43% in Australia, 40% in the UK.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: That's a good number of games, you know, copies of a big AAA game sold physically.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: Just goes to show that some markets will react differently
49:06
SPEAKER_00: when PlayStation stops making disc games available in January 2028.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: There's an education process to be done for sure.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is a good story.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: This is just broken.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: NC, which you might not have heard of NC,
49:17
SPEAKER_00: if I tell you what they used to be called, NC Soft, you might remember them.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: They're taking over the global publishing of Throne and Liberty.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: They were making Throne and Liberty.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: That's their game.
49:26
SPEAKER_00: It's an MMO that it was making alongside its studio, FastSpark Games.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: But it was being published by Amazon Games globally.
49:32
SPEAKER_00: Amazon is shifting away from MMOs now,
49:34
SPEAKER_00: and it's towards more mainstream games, better suited to its Lunar platform.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: So NC has now taken over the publishing of the MMO.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: Hope it does well.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we've got some indie games that have done pretty well.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Mecha Chameleon, the game that's dominated the summer.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: 20 million copies sold now.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: It is the biggest selling game of the year, even at $6, which is how much the game costs.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: It was the second biggest revenue generator in June in the US.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: Real hit.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Excellent hit.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of sort of games in this friend sloppy genres that are doing quite well,
50:04
SPEAKER_00: co-op adventure game Big Walker sold 1 million copies worldwide.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: That's the game from House House, that's the Australian studio famous for Untitled Goose Game.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: So that's two nice indie hits there.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: A bit of a negative story this one.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: What is a negative story?
50:17
SPEAKER_00: Supermassive Games,
50:18
SPEAKER_00: the UK developer behind horror story titles such as Until Dawn,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: which is brilliant,
50:22
SPEAKER_00: and the Dark Picture anthology,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: which I haven't played,
50:24
SPEAKER_00: but I've heard is also pretty good, is laying off a further 75 employees.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: It is his third round of job the studio I don't know what's going on within
50:31
SPEAKER_00: the studio and sony it made a bunch of games to sony it hasn't done for a while
50:35
SPEAKER_00: and it isn't working on until dawn 2 that's being made
50:37
SPEAKER_00: by fellow uk developers fire sprite the best of luck to the folks of supermassive
50:41
SPEAKER_00: because the games are good and the horror genre is you know hot right now In
50:46
SPEAKER_00: a more positive story,
50:47
SPEAKER_00: UK charity GainsAid has raised £82,000 that were distributed amongst four charities,
50:51
SPEAKER_00: AFK,
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Autistica,
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Reyes of Sunshine Children's Charity and Solving Kids' Cancer,
50:56
SPEAKER_00: each receiving £20,500 each.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: I used to be a trustee of that charity.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: It's nice to see them still going and doing quite well.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Long time ago that.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: And now let's move into the stories that we cover these in the micro so
51:07
SPEAKER_00: if you listen to the micro that it's only available
51:09
SPEAKER_00: to paid subscribers you will have heard of all these but I'll wrap off
51:12
SPEAKER_00: with them quickly.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Electronic Arts appointed Cam Webber as Chief Studios Officer and Dave Tinson as COO
51:17
SPEAKER_00: after the completion of its 55 billion dollar leveraged buyout.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: The company's majority owner is the Saudi Arabia Public Investment Fund
51:24
SPEAKER_00: with Silver Lake and Affinity Partners also among the investors.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: Take-Two did its financials and it beat its guidance for Q1.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: This was due to strong revenue from NBA 2K26 and Grand Theft Auto Online, the Classic II.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: It says it will hit between $8 billion and $8.2 billion in net bookings for
51:40
SPEAKER_00: the full year and that's all because of the launch of a certain Grand Theft Auto.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: Six.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: I had a chat with Strauss Elnick,
51:45
SPEAKER_00: it's on The Game Business website right now,
51:48
SPEAKER_00: after the financial results, and we talked a little bit about consoles.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: I think this was the most interesting one,
51:52
SPEAKER_00: because obviously the console market's going for a tough time,
51:55
SPEAKER_00: rising prices and all sorts of things might impact the install base,
51:58
SPEAKER_00: and he said,
51:59
SPEAKER_00: the install base of this generation at Christmas time will be roughly the same as
52:02
SPEAKER_00: the install base was when we launched GTA V.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: We're not concerned about selling to a smaller audience.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: That bit's good.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: But the intersection of the growth of PC as a format within console and PC releases
52:12
SPEAKER_00: from 1% to 50% over the last 20 years,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: combined with our optimism about streaming service over the next three years,
52:18
SPEAKER_00: we do think the audience for console and PC games could be 10 times or more the size
52:22
SPEAKER_00: of the business today.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: And that does not mean we think our revenues will grow by 10 times,
52:26
SPEAKER_00: but we do think the install base will grow materially.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: Really ambitious around streaming,
52:29
SPEAKER_00: we mentioned it earlier,
52:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm sceptical, but if people are willing to give it a go, I think it's worthwhile.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: The platform holders to their financials,
52:39
SPEAKER_00: Nintendo saw its operating profit jumped nearly 151% thanks
52:42
SPEAKER_00: to higher software revenue and a $300 million US tariff refund.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: However,
52:46
SPEAKER_00: Q1 sales were down 9.5%,
52:48
SPEAKER_00: mainly due to unfavorable comparisons with the Nintendo Switch 2 launch
52:51
SPEAKER_00: in June 2025.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: Another key number that I spotted in
52:54
SPEAKER_00: the Nintendo financials was its digital sales rose 90% to $840 million.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: This is mostly due to higher download sales for games that are also sold in boxes.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: Big digital transition happening there on Nintendo.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: Remember Nintendo now charge more for the physical versions of their games
53:08
SPEAKER_00: than they do for the digital versions.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: PlayStation sales were basically flat for the quarter to $5.8 billion.
53:16
SPEAKER_00: Operating income rose 37%.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: Again, they were boosted by a US tariff refund.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: However,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: the cost of next generation platforms and restructuring has hit
53:22
SPEAKER_00: the company's overall earnings.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: The firm says it is cautiously moving forward with its controversial plan to base out discs.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: Xbox revenue, we knew they had a bit of a tough time.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: Asha Sharma has been talking about it a lot.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: That's the CEO of Xbox.
53:36
SPEAKER_00: Their revenue was down 7% for the full financial year,
53:38
SPEAKER_00: 10% down during its financial fourth quarter ending June 30.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: Game Pass growth helped offset declines elsewhere, including a 29% drop in hardware revenue.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: What's not going to help that 29% drop in hardware revenue were the new prices for
53:50
SPEAKER_00: the Xbox Series S and X in Europe and the UK.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: We knew that the prices were going up.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: They said that already.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: They gave us the US prices.
53:56
SPEAKER_00: They didn't give us the prices for the US in Europe.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: They have now and it is high.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: The Xbox Series S will increase by £130 and €150,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: while Xbox Series X will increase by £170 and €200.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: That's quite the price hike, I have to say.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: There was a time when you could buy a console for that amount of money.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: Another, loads of financials, financial seasons.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: Atari's core business returned to profit in its latest financial results
54:21
SPEAKER_00: and it hit its highest revenue number for more than a decade.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: However,
54:24
SPEAKER_00: losses within its newly acquired funderful business meant that the group posted
54:27
SPEAKER_00: a $5.5 million loss overall.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: Roblox shares dropped by 30% after its Q2 results,
54:33
SPEAKER_00: which showed monetization was 2% below its guidance.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Investors hated it,
54:37
SPEAKER_00: but the company said this was because it had switched how it recommends games,
54:40
SPEAKER_00: focusing on longer-term retention over short-term monetization.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: It is also changing what games it showcases younger players following
54:46
SPEAKER_00: an introduction of age checks.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: It's a good move, but investors don't like it.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: A company that doesn't want to be in the financial conversation anymore is Devolver Digital.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: He wants to go private.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: The firm intends to delist on the UK's AIM market,
54:58
SPEAKER_00: with shareholders set to vote on the matter on September 8th.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: Devolver went public in November 2021 with a valuation of nearly £695 million.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Today, its market cap is £34.6 million.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Devolver cited the challenging video game market since 2021
55:11
SPEAKER_00: and insists its share price does not reflect the true value of the business.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Sticking with a UK related story,
55:18
SPEAKER_00: Secret Mode has opened an internal development studio in Sheffield, UK.
55:23
SPEAKER_00: The studio will support the publisher's games by creating add-on content as well
55:25
SPEAKER_00: as porting titles to other platforms.
55:27
SPEAKER_00: The new team is expected to grow to 20 people.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Secret Mode was owned by Sumo.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: It bought itself out with the help of Emona Capital and it's publishing
55:35
SPEAKER_00: the upcoming Star Wars Galactic Racer game.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: It's really cool.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get them on the show soon.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: It's a really cool story that one.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: This isn't a cool story.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: The studio behind the Netflix FIFA World Cup game Refactor Games has laid off 85% of its staff.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: The US developer previously made Football Simulator in 2022.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: Sticking with Unity,
55:52
SPEAKER_00: Triple Dot Studios has bought mobile publishers Supersonic for $40 million
55:56
SPEAKER_00: from Unity.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: Unity announced plans to divest Supersonic earlier this year.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Razer has acquired the assets to cloud-based streaming platform Stream Elements,
56:04
SPEAKER_00: which includes its technology brands and operations.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: Co-development studio Vertpaint has appointed former Sumo Group co-founder
56:10
SPEAKER_00: and CEO Carl Cavers OBE as non-executive director and shareholder.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: Cavers left Sumo in 2025.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: And Frontier Developments has appointed Dan Lazaridis as Chief Marketing Officer.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: Dan previously worked as Senior VP of Marketing at Sega Europe and Head of Brand at Bethesda.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: Over 10 minutes on the news.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: Dan, thank you for listening.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed today's show.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: And become a paid subscriber.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: But obviously our big episodes are available for free.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: They always will be.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: And those will come out on a Tuesday and a Thursday.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: And we appreciate subscribers to that too.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: If you're not subscribing it to either a free subscriber or a paid subscriber,
56:59
SPEAKER_00: thegamebusiness.com.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: It's everything you need to know.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: That's it for me today.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Thank you all for tuning in.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, have a good week.