Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / WSU KNEW KOHBERGER A THREAT, KILLER'S BLEAK APT., WITNESS' DEATH THREATS, VILE IMAGES

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WSU KNEW KOHBERGER A THREAT, KILLER'S BLEAK APT., WITNESS' DEATH THREATS, VILE IMAGES · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Did Washington State University know Brian Coburger was a dangerous threat?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Were there fiery red.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Flags of alarm that they chose to ignore? Would he
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: have been kicked out and home to mommy and daddy
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: in the Poconos and these murders would never have happened
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: if Washington State University had acted this. As photos of
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: the killer's bleak apartment are revealed, what clues did he
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: leave behind?
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: And believe it or.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Not, witnesses are getting death threats as the victims' families
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: in anguish as vile images of their children in death
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: are being released. Oh e double l n oh, I
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: mean as he Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: to thank you for being with us.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Location of emergency.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: Scream and she ran un stairs because she saw someone.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She someone's here
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: and she's screaming.
• 1:24
  Speaker 5: Just a random series.
• 1:26
  Speaker 6: Did you kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Xana
• 1:30
  Speaker 6: cernodle Ethan Chapin.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Yes. At this our family members still holding out hope
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: that the Feds will swoop in and seek the death
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: penalty on Brian Coburger. Is it possible, And what about
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: the fact that he was leaving a trail a mile
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: wide red flags of alarm to Washington State University that
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Brian Coburger was a danger. Will listen to what the
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Gonsalvice family has to say. Find it really interesting that
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Washington State had this long history of his anti woman,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: misogynist stalking behavior and did nothing.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: If he had been thrown out, he wouldn't have even
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: been there exactly.
• 2:18
  Speaker 7: Yep.
• 2:19
  Speaker 8: He should have been thrown out before he ever killed
• 2:21
  Speaker 8: these kids.
• 2:21
  Speaker 9: That's the truth.
• 2:22
  Speaker 8: If they should have set a standard and said, look,
• 2:25
  Speaker 8: we don't put up with this in our university. You
• 2:28
  Speaker 8: cross the line, you're done. It's not even our decision,
• 2:31
  Speaker 8: it's just your behavior. We're holding you accountable. You should
• 2:34
  Speaker 8: behave like this. That's the expectations in Washington State University.
• 2:38
  Speaker 8: And you either do it or you don't.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I can always tell when he's having a bad day,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: and he looks probably the worst I've ever seen him,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: and he just kind of stared at me, and there
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: was a newsaper sitting on the bar, and he just
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: kind of picked it up.
• 2:51
  Speaker 9: And I was like he was him.
• 2:53
  Speaker 8: He was really desperate for its engine and ways to
• 2:56
  Speaker 8: control people.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: That last sound from our friends ever at Crime Fix
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: co workers when they heard about the killings.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: They're like, it's Coburger.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: It's got to be Brian Coburger with me an all
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: star panel of guests to make sense of what we
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: know right now. But first to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalists
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: that shot to fame in her coverage of the Delphi murderers,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: author of Down the heel My, descended to the double
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: murder in Delphi and was there for the sentencing drinking
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: in every move Coburger made, such as it was or
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: was not, he seemed completely oblivious to all the pain
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: around him, pain he had caused. But Susan Hendrix, let
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: me get to the issue at hand.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Washington State University.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Did you hear mister Golensolvis telling us that there had
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: been thirteen complaints where he would intimidate or stalk female students.
• 3:55
  Speaker 7: Absolutely and that he almost or wanted to make them cry.
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: That is what he did.
• 4:01
  Speaker 7: He treated them completely different than the male students.
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: It was signed after.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Sign after sign. To me, what did it take?
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: And was that the final straw for him? When he
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: was finally let go.
• 4:14
  Speaker 7: But you're right, complaint after a complaint, the Gonzalvez family says,
• 4:18
  Speaker 7: it just told.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Me something I didn't know, Susan Hendrix, that part of
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: the intimidation tactics on Brian Coiberger was to try and
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: make the girls cry.
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: Yes, he seemed to enjoy what well.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
• 4:31
  Speaker 7: Yes, would criticize the girls more, pin them out, pointed
• 4:35
  Speaker 7: them out in class, and would.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Make them cry.
• 4:38
  Speaker 7: It was a clear difference in that classroom, and they
• 4:42
  Speaker 7: complained and finally was the final straw when he was
• 4:45
  Speaker 7: let go. But absolutely there were signs, and we keep
• 4:49
  Speaker 7: hearing more and more every day.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Did nothing. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: In addition to Susan Hendrix, Doctor Bethany renounced like o
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Alice out.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Of La author of deal Breakers.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: You can see her now on Peacock and you can
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: find her a Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Dr Bethany.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: That sounds like a fifth grade No, not even a
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: fifth grade, a first grade boy, kiss the girls and
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: make them cry, A grown man getting his PhD. One instance,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: mister Golensovst told me about no is missus Gonsalvias told
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: me about Christy that he would standing in the doorway
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: where the students were trying to get into the classroom,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: all boat up, and the girls would have to like
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: edge by him and their bodies, their front of their bodies,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: you know what that ntails. It would have to brush
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: up against him. That's gross. And then Susant Hendricks telling
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: us that he would intentionally make the girls students cry.
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: Nancy, this doesn't surprise me at all because the defining
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: feature of psychopaths is that sexuality, cruelty, and sadism are
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: all commingled. They go together in some way. So making
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: the girls cry was probably sexually exciting for him.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Bethany, Okay, you know, even if you wear hit boots
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: when you walk through the saspool, you're still going to track.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: A little home on the living room carpet.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Do you ever get so saturated you track a little
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: bit home? Because do you hear what you're saying? That
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Coburger would get sexually aroused. Oh, I don't even think
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: about that, over seeing girls tear up and get upset.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: And how does that connect to what he did to
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the victims?
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so what I'm saying is that seeing them
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: cry is like looking in their eyes and seeing pain
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: of some sort. And when you think about what he
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: might have been doing to make them cry, he was
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: probably gathering personal information and pushing their buttons, and that
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: I'm saying this is associated with sexual arousal. So these
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: women he probably had an erection while he was doing this.
• 7:03
  Speaker 5: And how it relates to the murders is that the
• 7:06
  Speaker 5: murders were really overkilled. They were statistically motivated. And if
• 7:11
  Speaker 5: we think of think of him stalking the women, the
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: university women as kind of like foreplay before he got
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: to the major crime, which was stabbing these students multiple times.
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: So it's like he was graduating towards increasingly sadistic acts
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: in order to maintain his sexual excitement.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: That's what we have to see.
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: So had he not been incarcerated.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, Bethany, wait till you hear this, Christy. Missus Gonsalves
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: and husband Steve Gonsalves are telling me about how many
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: complaints he had. Now, remember, doctor Bethany, he had just
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: gotten to pull him in Washington State University and by
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Thanksgiving they say that there were already that they know
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: of teen formal complaints by women against him. What is
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: that September, October, part of November, in two and a
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: half months. What I'm saying is Washington State apparently did nothing.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: They finally had meetings and discussions and blah blah blah,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: and decided they were going to let him go. But
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: they released him just out into the wilderness.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Now listen to what they said, doctor Bethany.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, he had thirteen in the first semester. The
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: first one came in August, that's the first month that
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: you come to school, and then twelve twelve after and
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: November had a huge, you know, Thanksgiving break, and then
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: he didn't even go the whole month of December. He
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: took off, like December ninth or tenth. And there's thirteen
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: formal complaints back, aggressive and standing doorways from what we've read,
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: and the girls would have to like walk past him
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: and like all right, yeah, you know.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Joining me is justice.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Scott Morgan not only death investigator with literally thousands of
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: death scenes under his belt. He is a star of
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: hitting new series Body Bags with Joe. Scott Morgan, author
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, but purpose for
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: purposes of this discussion, Joe Scott is also professor a
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: forensics at Jacksonville State University.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Don't you guys have rules?
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know Jacksonville State University does, But how
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: many complaints do there have to be? There's thirteen formal
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: complaints we've been told by the gonsalvices.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: How many more were they that were just like comments?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: You know, just comments like what is wrong with him
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: going to complain to another faculty member or a guidance
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: counselor what in the world can you imagine a grown
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: man enjoying seeing his girls students.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Start crying and they just let it happen.
• 9:57
  Speaker 10: According to reports at jack State, he would have been
• 10:01
  Speaker 10: out on his ear. This is my twenty first year
• 10:04
  Speaker 10: as a college professor, Nancy, and I got to tell you,
• 10:08
  Speaker 10: I'm thinking about this in a different way now that
• 10:10
  Speaker 10: this conversation has come out and I've got my professor
• 10:13
  Speaker 10: hat on right now. I think that his motivation for
• 10:20
  Speaker 10: being in an academic environment is so that he can
• 10:26
  Speaker 10: perpetrate upon these defenseless kids. In this environment, he is
• 10:30
  Speaker 10: lord and master in this environment. He can control the classroom,
• 10:35
  Speaker 10: He can do whatever he wants to. He can do
• 10:37
  Speaker 10: that dead eyed stare at people, and he is not
• 10:41
  Speaker 10: in any way an educator. Look when kids come into
• 10:44
  Speaker 10: my class and they're learning about forensics, I don't want
• 10:48
  Speaker 10: to sound like a Kumba y'ah moment, because it's not.
• 10:50
  Speaker 10: I want them to come in so that they can learn,
• 10:53
  Speaker 10: so they can go forth and be effective practitioners in
• 10:56
  Speaker 10: the field. That's not the environment that he created, Nancy.
• 11:01
  Speaker 10: If I were to compare him to something, I would
• 11:04
  Speaker 10: say this. If you know how a snapping turtle works.
• 11:08
  Speaker 10: They sit on the bottom of the water, their mouth
• 11:10
  Speaker 10: is open, and you know what, their tongue comes out
• 11:12
  Speaker 10: and it looks like a worm. So anything that comes
• 11:14
  Speaker 10: by that fish is going to attack that worm and
• 11:18
  Speaker 10: then they clamp down. That's what he is. That's this behavior,
• 11:23
  Speaker 10: and he was utilizing the university in this environment to
• 11:26
  Speaker 10: look for victims. And I think he probably would have
• 11:29
  Speaker 10: continued as well, you're going to have.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: To tell me the tongue and the worm part again. What.
• 11:33
  Speaker 10: Yeah, snapping turtle will sit on the bottom of a
• 11:36
  Speaker 10: lake bed or on the bottom of a river bottom,
• 11:38
  Speaker 10: and they will sit there and they'll open their mouth
• 11:40
  Speaker 10: and their tongue looks like a worm. It'll come out
• 11:43
  Speaker 10: and just kind of sit in the water like this,
• 11:44
  Speaker 10: so if a fish comes by, they'll see it, they'll
• 11:47
  Speaker 10: strike at it, and when they do, the snapping turtle
• 11:50
  Speaker 10: clash down his jaws on them and there's your meal.
• 11:53
  Speaker 10: I've always felt like it was a reptile anyway, this
• 11:56
  Speaker 10: further confirms it to me as a professor.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, there has to be rules that are followed.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about what doctor Bethany is saying about
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: basically scaring the girls and making them cry and enjoying it.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: And according to the Gonsolvaces, this was a pattern of behavior.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: If they had kicked him out, as I think they
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: should have, he would have turned tail. You'd see nothing
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: but tailhole and elbows him are running home to mommy
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: and daddy. But no, he stayed and ended up murdering
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: the four students. And there's more. Listen to killing Gonsolvas's father.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: React.
• 12:42
  Speaker 8: Guys should have been punched in the face. He was
• 12:44
  Speaker 8: a creep man. He's a disgusting creep the kind of guy.
• 12:47
  Speaker 8: We even heard about it from the Seven Sirens Bar
• 12:49
  Speaker 8: where those girls put a little note saying, hey, if
• 12:52
  Speaker 8: you get this credit card, watch out for this guy.
• 12:53
  Speaker 8: I mean, he's been doing this his whole life and
• 12:56
  Speaker 8: we didn't stand up to him. We need to start
• 12:58
  Speaker 8: standing up to these type of bully and death. No,
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: hopefully Idaho get it right. Hope, Hopefully the prisoner's in there,
• 13:05
  Speaker 8: they'll do the real justice.
• 13:06
  Speaker 10: They they'll have like real.
• 13:08
  Speaker 8: Men in there and they'll handle it the way that
• 13:10
  Speaker 8: he should be handled in the first place.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Are you surprised, doctor Bethany Marshall? He wasn't just terrorizing
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the female students at school a lot of them thirteen
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: formal complaints that we know of. How many other complaints
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: were they that were there that were not formal, but
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: now we know it was discussed at bars and restaurants
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: where the female waitresses like, watch.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Out for this guy.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: He is a creep state away from him, so he
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: couldn't contain himself.
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: It was compulsive, Nancy, and he could not stop himself. Again,
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: if we think of sex aggression, making women cry, dominating women,
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: threatening and intimidating them as all going hand in hand,
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: we could say, in a sense he was sexually compulsive,
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: that he was constantly instantly acting this out everywhere he went.
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: And Nancy, if the criminology professors told the school administration
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: that he was a danger. Why wouldn't they trust criminology professors.
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: I mean, these people are trained to spot sociopaths. And furthermore,
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: did you know that Brian Coberger's school office was in
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: the basement. It was it was isolated from other offices,
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: and because of that, students were afraid of him and
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: did not want to go in. So in a sense,
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: they served up the students like a tasty little snack
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: to him, which I think is just so so disgusting
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: and it's really disturbing.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: The emergency of the emergency. What is the rest of
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: the address?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Oh roads okay?
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: And there's a house or an apartment.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: It's a house.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: it right.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you guys.
• 15:12
  Speaker 11: We're we live a delights so we're next to them.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: I need someone to repeat the adress for raification.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: The address one one to two Kingdom.
• 15:23
  Speaker 10: So many stabs, it's unbelievable, And I've written in the
• 15:28
  Speaker 10: document I heard that.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: You're gonna be okay, and you and I can call.
• 15:33
  Speaker 11: Your name to thee.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: They saw some men in their house.
• 15:37
  Speaker 10: A route wised to each and every one of them.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Does it never end for the victims families? Well, short answer, no,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: their suffering will never end. But now they have another
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: fight on their hands, trying to stop vile images of
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: their children in death being released.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine. I remember writing.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: My first book, Objection, and I learned about what I
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: call blood money, people trying to get crime scene photos.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: I remember specifically people trying to get Nicole Brown OJ
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Simpson's wife autopsy photos. Yes, so they could sell them.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: That fight going on.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that there are ghouls out there doing that.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: The family fighting tooth and now tonight to try to
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: stop those images. But right now I want to tell
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: you about just obtained photos.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: And we are not not here on crime stories.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: We are not posting photos, bloody photos of these children,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: these University idahost students.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: That is not happening here.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I will show you weird photos of the killer, Brian
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Coburger's Pullman apartment, very bleak apartment to.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Determine what, if anything, we can learn.
• 17:12
  Speaker 12: Listen, new evidence photos show the bleak interior of Coberger's
• 17:15
  Speaker 12: Pullman apartment and WSU office. Aside from graded papers, criminology
• 17:21
  Speaker 12: textbooks and a few birthday cards. Coburger's apartment is largely
• 17:25
  Speaker 12: devoid of any personal items.
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: Police marked a.
• 17:28
  Speaker 12: Black glove, Coburger's computer tower, a few receipts, and a
• 17:32
  Speaker 12: vacuum cleaner as evidence items, but found little of value
• 17:35
  Speaker 12: in the sparse apartment. Coberger's nearly empty home echoes his
• 17:39
  Speaker 12: thin social life. The admitted mass murderer had just eighteen
• 17:43
  Speaker 12: contacts saved in his cell phone and spoke to his
• 17:46
  Speaker 12: parents for hours at a time every single day.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Oh my stars.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Of course, Philip de Bay is going to join us
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: in just a moment to tell me how this doesn't
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: mean anything. But I guarantee you it would have meant
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: something to a jury. Did you see his bleak apartment,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, That means something.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Even his food in his freezer.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: I remember a family was over, a friend of my
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: daughter's family was over and they're very oh my goodness, Okay, yeah, no,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: that's not happening in our house. The family was over
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: and they were very strict on their diets and their
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: children's diets, and one of the children asked for, I
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: don't know, a juice box or something and I opened
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: up We're all standing in the kitchen. Of course, I
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: opened up our fridge and they literally physically react.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: And they went because the fridge is.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Just crammed with leftovers and leftovers and blah. It's just
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: you have to dig in there. It's like an excavation
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: to find something.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Look at Coburger's.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: I can hear Dubai in the background going, he wants
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: to jump in so badly. What does that mean, Bethany,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, looking this fridge, there's nothing.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: There's not even a piece of lint on the floor.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Oh is that an apple he's got in a zip
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: lock bag on the right. But you're not supposed to
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: put apples in the fridge, that said tofu. Yes, and
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: everything is hermetically sealed, and it looks like that fridge
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: was just cleaned out with some type of antibacterial spray.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Hit me, Bethany, well.
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: This, you know, the apples in the baggy are kind
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: of an OCD type thing, right, being afraid of germs.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: I like what the commentator said about a thin emotional life.
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: When you think of the traits of the sociopath as
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: having very shallow emotions, their lives are not rich like ours.
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: They don't put photos around of family members, they don't
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: collect memories of the people around them. They're not comforted
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: by home. If you think of what we were talking
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: about earlier, about the fact that he has what we
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: call a perophilia, So a paraphilia is constant sexual arousal
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: at something that is not sexual in nature, so anything
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: other than sex paired with attraction towards non consenting adults.
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: This is something that preoccupies Coburger. That's all he has
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: room for. So it's not surprising to me when you
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: look at his apartment that there's no sign of emotional richness,
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: emotional life relationships, anything other than crime and the apples
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: in the baggie, which are both just very compulsive. His
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: whole life is organized around his compulsion. Nancy, I don't
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: know what you just said. You lost me at being
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: sexually aroused.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: By an item not in nature, like, I don't know
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: what that.
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: Means, noet being a paraphilia is two things. It's being
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: aroused by anything that is not sexual in nature, meaning
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: it's and also being aroused by a non consenting adult.
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: That means that he would not be aroused by a
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: woman who loves him or wants to be with him,
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: he would he would only be aroused by a woman
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: who's non consenting and doesn't want to be with him.
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: In other words, he can't gain sexual excitement by anything
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: other than being around people who really are not connected
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: to him in any way. That's what we call a perversion.
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: You cannot be excited by a full connection with another
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: human being who loves you back. So it creates kind
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: of a shallow perspective in life, and the apartment seems shallow,
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: like it's just there's no life there.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Special guest Chris McDonough, director cole CA's Foundation, former homicide
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: detective with over three hundred Oh yes, speaking of OCD,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: check this out. Shoes lined up. He's staring up at
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: the shelf to make sure. Oh, he's cleaning the creases
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: in his shoe from.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: What all that mud? No, from nothing.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Chris McDonough director, Cold Case Foundation, homicide detective, over three
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: hundred homicides under his belt. I found him on the
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Interview Room on YouTube. That's his show, Chris. When you
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: look at this apartment, what I'm saying is overarching theory here.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: There were red flags, fiery red flags being.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Waved in front of everybody's face. Okay, nobody got it.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Nobody did anything, and including Washington State University. I'm calling
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: you out, people, But are you surprised that there were
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: no blood drops in his home? They got that vacuum cleaner,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: you know, to do what to see if there was
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: any trace of the victim's hair, any fibers, even dog
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: fibers from Murphy the dog, dog hair, from anything they
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: could find.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: That's not gonna happen.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: What do you see, you're the trained homicide detective. When
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: you look at his free key clean apartment, it gives
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: me the scheme just looking at.
• 23:23
  Speaker 9: It, You know, Nancy, what jumps out at me is
• 23:26
  Speaker 9: the duality of his personality. If we look at the
• 23:30
  Speaker 9: room as a whole, you can tell there's that OCD
• 23:34
  Speaker 9: you know, part of his personality. But then you go
• 23:37
  Speaker 9: into his closet, look inside of his closet to the
• 23:40
  Speaker 9: left side that is completely disheveled, all of the receipts
• 23:45
  Speaker 9: there you go, All of that tells us a whole
• 23:48
  Speaker 9: other side of his personality. This tells us what the
• 23:53
  Speaker 9: girls were seeing. This is the hidden side. Of his life,
• 23:56
  Speaker 9: the secret life, as we call it. These are the
• 24:00
  Speaker 9: complaints that we're seeing here, not physically, but this is
• 24:04
  Speaker 9: his personality. It's all about control in the public persona
• 24:10
  Speaker 9: and then behind the scenes it's about violence. If you
• 24:13
  Speaker 9: look at the book, there's one book there the Ivory Tower,
• 24:16
  Speaker 9: on the floor in it that was found inside of
• 24:20
  Speaker 9: his chester of other items there that is about sexual
• 24:25
  Speaker 9: assault of college students. It's called Unsafe in the Ivory Tower.
• 24:32
  Speaker 9: If we look closely at that book all right there
• 24:35
  Speaker 9: to the far right, in the bottom right corner, that
• 24:37
  Speaker 9: book is about sexual assault about college students. Now go
• 24:42
  Speaker 9: do the math, right.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: I'm doing it right now. I'm making a note of
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: everything you say. You know what's really interesting, Chris mcdunna.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: And this isn't aside. This is how you prepare for trial.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: You get with somebody. I try to get with somebody
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: that knows more than I do so you can hear
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: their ideas. See, I've looked at those books. I've looked
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: at the titles. But you point out a book about
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: sex assault in the Unsafe in the Ivory Tower, how
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: female coeds are sex assaulted. It's not just a coincidence.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: There is no coincidence in criminal law. These are all
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: tutorials for Brian Koberger, but nobody put together the puzzle pieces,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: and now four students are dead. You know, Joe Scott Morgan,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Professor Forensics and a forensic expert. Joe Scott, You've been
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: to a million scenes and I can't explain why, but
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: when I would go to a crime scene, I would
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: want to just sit down and have everybody get out
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: of the room so I could just sit there.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: And I don't know what I was.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Looking for, but I needed it to be quiet so
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: I could just look and see what I could see.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: And learn what I could learn, and.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Feel what I could feel in a crime saint like
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Coburger's bleak apartment. And what about that computer screen, Joe
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Scott remember how he quote helped his colleague. Helped his
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: colleague put in her Wi Fi security cams so he
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: could have access and watch her walk around her apartment
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: naked or half naked, or just sitting there watching TV
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: or making out with their boyfriend.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he was watching.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine the hours he's spent on that computer.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Just look at the chair, look at the stark position.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a shrink, but this is telling
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: me something. And look at the bed one pillow. I
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: guarantee you he makes the bed up and at night
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: just get it said on his side and leaves the
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: rest made up and sleeps on the one little area.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: See how one side is a little messed up and
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: the other side isn't He just like sleeps in one
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: spot by his computer. I mean, there's no way that
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: anyone would have known all this, but we're learning all
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: this in retrospect. Washington State knew a lot, but we're
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: learning a lot, and none.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Of it's good. Joe Scott, No it's not.
• 27:30
  Speaker 10: And listen, yeah, I can't imagine. I don't want to
• 27:33
  Speaker 10: imagine what he was viewing on that computer, particularly when
• 27:36
  Speaker 10: you think about this observable, you know, kind of track
• 27:42
  Speaker 10: that he was on where he goes into this woman's
• 27:44
  Speaker 10: apartment and tells her that he's going to assist her
• 27:47
  Speaker 10: with her security system. Lord only knows where that went.
• 27:52
  Speaker 10: And sitting around you know, to me, Nancy, this this
• 27:56
  Speaker 10: speaks to me as this guy is mission oriented and
• 28:01
  Speaker 10: his mission is to reak total and complete havoc. You're
• 28:06
  Speaker 10: showing the text here I'm wondering where his forensics text
• 28:09
  Speaker 10: are as well, you know, because for so long people
• 28:12
  Speaker 10: had kind of pushed out this idea that he is this,
• 28:15
  Speaker 10: and you know, I took great exception of this that
• 28:18
  Speaker 10: because he's studying criminology, that he's a forensics expert and
• 28:22
  Speaker 10: those two things. You can't conflate those two things. But
• 28:26
  Speaker 10: I would assume that he had texts relative to that
• 28:29
  Speaker 10: as well to help him kind of work through this
• 28:31
  Speaker 10: idea that I'm going to be this master criminal. He's
• 28:34
  Speaker 10: not trying to edify himself by studying these texts in
• 28:37
  Speaker 10: any way. He's using this. He's using this as a
• 28:41
  Speaker 10: means in order to understand what he needs to do
• 28:44
  Speaker 10: in order to get to certain points along this journey
• 28:48
  Speaker 10: of horror that he's on.
• 28:51
  Speaker 11: For me.
• 28:52
  Speaker 10: For me personally, one of the things that I would
• 28:55
  Speaker 10: really like to try to understand is not only what
• 28:58
  Speaker 10: happened in Pullman, Washington. I hope, I true hope with
• 29:03
  Speaker 10: everything in my being, that they're going back to the
• 29:05
  Speaker 10: sales Nancy, that they're taking a long look at everything
• 29:09
  Speaker 10: that he got involved in in Pennsylvania and see if
• 29:12
  Speaker 10: there is anything else out there that is very disturbing
• 29:17
  Speaker 10: where he was interacting with people. I want to know
• 29:20
  Speaker 10: if there's any cold cases around that proximity, because this
• 29:23
  Speaker 10: is something he's been thinking about for a while. And
• 29:27
  Speaker 10: to start off, well, yeah, four homicide, four homicides. I
• 29:32
  Speaker 10: just think that there's.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: He went from zero to one twenty mph overnight. Hey,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Cidy sign er, Joe Scott just says something that jogged
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: my memory. He says to Coburger, says to his female coworker,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: let me help you.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I'm going to help you set up your WiFi.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: So he could watch her naked or half naked or
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: cooking or whatever she's doing in her place.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Same words and echo.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna help you. That's what he said to the
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: murder victim before he butchered her. Another thing that you
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: said earlier, Sidney Center, Sydney Summer Crime Stories.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Investigative reporter joining us that he had a thin social.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Life, as evidenced by his devices, explain.
• 30:29
  Speaker 11: Well, we've learned that Brian Koberger only had eighteen contacts
• 30:35
  Speaker 11: saved in his phone. I cannot imagine by the twenty
• 30:40
  Speaker 11: seven year old when this first started, only having eighteen
• 30:44
  Speaker 11: people saved in your phone and most of those contacts
• 30:48
  Speaker 11: didn't even have names associated with them. That's what I
• 30:51
  Speaker 11: found even more odd about this that oh girl, I
• 30:55
  Speaker 11: went jogging with another girl, I went jogging with red hair.
• 31:00
  Speaker 11: So the eighteen contacts that he does have saved in
• 31:03
  Speaker 11: his phone, many of those are extremely impersonal, somebody who
• 31:07
  Speaker 11: maybe met once or twice. So it just goes to
• 31:11
  Speaker 11: show that he was very socially in it and speaking
• 31:14
  Speaker 11: on the phone for hours with his parents every single day.
• 31:18
  Speaker 11: There's evidence that he would call them and talk to
• 31:21
  Speaker 11: them until he fell asleep every single day, and that
• 31:26
  Speaker 11: is just again extremely odd for a twenty seven year
• 31:30
  Speaker 11: old in a PhD program.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: DoD to Mathony Marshall, I named his shrink and I
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: named one fast hit me well.
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: The fact that he didn't have their real names in
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: the phone suggests that he was already trying to depersonalize
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: potential victims, right, I said earlier, sexual attraction only to
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: non consenting adults. If they become real, then he has
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: to relate to them. He just wants to have power
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: over people, and aggression is such a core part of
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: that personality. I bet he talked to his parents for
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: hours because that was the only place he could even
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: feel a semblance of an attachment, right, he probably didn't
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: feel attached to anybody.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Contort thing doctor Bethany to keep the phone open and
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: talk to your mom until you fall asleep. It's like
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: it's or holding onto you.
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, having your little binkie in your mouth exactly.
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: And that computer in his room, I just can't stop
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: looking at it and wondering what else is in there?
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: Are there other pictures he took of non consenting adults
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: in public? Like was he going into bathrooms and putting
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: the you know, the mirror and the camera into the
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: stall or you know, I would be surprised if this
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: perverse activity was just isolated to the one professor and
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: to the students and to the people in the bars
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: and restaurants. He had to have been doing it everywhere.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: That's a scary thought.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I wonder if bathrooms at these restaurants and where he
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: worked had been checked for you know, like the tiny
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: cameras they need to check.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they've thought of that yet.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, joining me now, veterans trial lawyer Philip Dubay joining
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: us the LA jurisdiction. Okay, Dubai, I guess now you're
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: going to tell me that none of this amounts to
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: a hill of beans.
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: Right, not even close.
• 33:21
  Speaker 13: I mean, are you going to say that because he's
• 33:24
  Speaker 13: living in an austere apartment as a starving student, basically
• 33:29
  Speaker 13: not having a pot or a window is a foreshadow
• 33:32
  Speaker 13: of a quadruple homicide? I mean, I look back at
• 33:35
  Speaker 13: my own college days and those days we had a
• 33:38
  Speaker 13: beanbag chair and a lawn chair in our living room. Seriously,
• 33:42
  Speaker 13: and to suggest it because he has a quote unquote
• 33:44
  Speaker 13: bag of apples, that it's a sign of lowliness or
• 33:47
  Speaker 13: a sign of sexual fatigue or some other type of psych.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Said at all what we said, Dubai.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Look, you can do your legal analysis, your defense related
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: analysis through your your lens.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: But at least get it straight.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: We were talking about the sparsity of items in his
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: fridge and the way that things were organized neatly, and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the austerity of his apartment and the lack of any
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: connection to anybody another human. Did you see his mom
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: and dad in a frame photo by his bed, or
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of pieces of paper and memories and ticket
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: stubs and photos stuck to his wall with Scotch tape.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Uh huh? No, No, he's like a robot.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: He's a machine, a killing machine, and it means something,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: whether you want to admit it or not, it means something.
• 34:43
  Speaker 13: The guy's on the spectrum, don't you remember he has
• 34:46
  Speaker 13: as birds. You know what that is. It's a social
• 34:49
  Speaker 13: awkward news. He doesn't know how to relate to other people.
• 34:52
  Speaker 13: He's alienated himself. Nobody wants to be around the guy,
• 34:56
  Speaker 13: let alone give them their telephone number and address to
• 34:59
  Speaker 13: be it as a contact to his phone. That is
• 35:03
  Speaker 13: one of the symptoms of aspergers. They don't have a
• 35:06
  Speaker 13: social network or people in their orbit. So if you
• 35:09
  Speaker 13: were to look at it from afar, yeah, compared to
• 35:12
  Speaker 13: other healthy, able, working, assiduous college students, he stands out.
• 35:18
  Speaker 13: But to suggest that this is all a symptom or
• 35:21
  Speaker 13: a foreshadow of a quadruple homicide, that is psychobabble.
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: The families of Madison Mogan and Ethan Chapin are suing
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: Moscow over the release of hundreds of crime scene photos
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: and video of the first response to eleven twenty two
• 35:35
  Speaker 6: King Road. Their attorney claims many of the photos constitute
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: an unwarned invasion of privacy. Leander James says blurring on
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: the images isn't effective and blood is still visible on
• 35:45
  Speaker 6: floors and walls, and footage sounds of sobbing friends and
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: roommates are incredibly traumatizing for the families. James argues the
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: crime has been extremely sensationalized and harrowing images have now
• 35:56
  Speaker 6: been plastered across the Internet, news channels and social media,
• 36:00
  Speaker 6: often for economic game.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Straight out to Susan Hendrix joining US investigative journalist on
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the case. Okay, so now the family that's still dealing
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: with the murder, the brutal murder of their children, are
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: having to take on a fight.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: So these vile photos are not released. Why would they
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: be released?
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: I mean somebody files a for you request freedom of information.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: I so what exactly.
• 36:29
  Speaker 7: Stacy Chapin, Ethan Chapin's mom and also Matty Mugen's family
• 36:34
  Speaker 7: filed this and said it opens a wound. This is
• 36:37
  Speaker 7: what Stacy said. That's not healed yet. In Dell fin Nancy,
• 36:41
  Speaker 7: they were sealed. Sadly, there was a leak of the
• 36:43
  Speaker 7: crime scene photos early on, but the autopsy sealed decision
• 36:47
  Speaker 7: made by Judge Frank goul and I think it should
• 36:49
  Speaker 7: be made here. But there was a hearing on this,
• 36:52
  Speaker 7: and the judge said that you will make a decision
• 36:55
  Speaker 7: down the road.
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: So I hope. So, I mean, why do we have.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: To see that exactly?
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, I I get it that when a case
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: you're seeing some of the photos that have been released.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: We are not showing bloody photos.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Of the victim's blood in the crime scene the home
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: on King Road. The families have been through enough, not
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: only that, not only that, now witnesses are being threatened,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: death threatened.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Listen, Judge Hipler.
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: Weighing redaction, attorneys say witnesses name should remain private, as
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: witnesses have been threatened and stocked, hiring private security and
• 37:38
  Speaker 6: relocating from their homes. In particular, attorneys believe Coberger's alternate
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: perpetrators should be kept from the public. Hitpler asked for
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: the information on each intended redaction, including their roles in
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: the case and whether they have already been identified in
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: the media.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, Sidney Sumner, Crime Story's investigative reporter, also on the
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Coburger case, I take it that the well, there have
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: been a lot of threats on witnesses, but the witnesses
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: that are getting the most serious threats are the ones
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: that defense wanted to use as some other dude did
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: it scapegoat and they knew all along it wasn't true.
• 38:19
  Speaker 11: That is correct. That is those are the witnesses that
• 38:23
  Speaker 11: attorneys on both sides are most concerned about getting any
• 38:27
  Speaker 11: kind of threat or having safety concerns with their names
• 38:32
  Speaker 11: being made public. And the defense at this point has
• 38:36
  Speaker 11: admitted that those people were never involved in this crime
• 38:39
  Speaker 11: and this was simply a defense. They were trying to
• 38:42
  Speaker 11: point the finger elsewhere to say it was not Brian
• 38:46
  Speaker 11: Coburger that committed this crime. So that has been disproven.
• 38:50
  Speaker 11: But we know how many people support Brian Coberger. We
• 38:54
  Speaker 11: saw the Reddit threads, we saw the Facebook groups trying
• 38:58
  Speaker 11: to prove Brian coburgers in a sense, So they want
• 39:01
  Speaker 11: to protect those people that were named in this alternate
• 39:04
  Speaker 11: perpetrator theory and make sure their names are not linked
• 39:07
  Speaker 11: to the public so no one can do anything to
• 39:11
  Speaker 11: put those men in harsh way.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethanie Marshall, the victims'
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: families call them the quote proburgers that are still going online.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I said every time I dare to look at social
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: media that he was framed they're actually death threatening witnesses,
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: especially threats going.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: To some other dude did it scapegoat?
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: The defense came up with, knowing full well Coburger committed
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: the murderers. They were going to blame somebody else in
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: open court and it leaked out and now the scapegoats
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: are getting threat What is Nancy these people?
• 40:02
  Speaker 9: Do?
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: Three to five percent of the general population has the
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: same personality disorder that Coburger has, so it's not surprising
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: to me that he has this huge following. Coburger probably
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: did what his minions or followers wish they could have
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: done themselves. They just don't have the courage to do it, Nancy,
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: So he's their king. They are pro Burger, and they
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: probably are harassing anybody who they feel is going to
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: bring the king down. That's just what's happening here.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: And Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, I can't stress enough the
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: brutality of the crime scene photos. They're worse than any
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: so called slice and dice video you've ever seen, except
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: they're real. And to re victimize these victims and you
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: a horrible death that night and their families, I mean,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I can't convey the nature of these photos, Jo Scott.
• 41:09
  Speaker 10: It's very difficult to do that. Nancy, reflect back, just
• 41:12
  Speaker 10: for a moment. Do you remember being in pre trial
• 41:16
  Speaker 10: as a prosecutor and when we still had the old
• 41:20
  Speaker 10: format images and they would be spread out all over
• 41:23
  Speaker 10: the table, and you're trying to decide what you're going
• 41:26
  Speaker 10: to use in order to describe what happened, all right,
• 41:30
  Speaker 10: and some of these images in our circumstances, you and
• 41:34
  Speaker 10: I over those years ago, you think, do I really
• 41:37
  Speaker 10: need to show this to the jury to get the
• 41:39
  Speaker 10: point across because we would have to use our discernment
• 41:43
  Speaker 10: in order to do that. Because some of these things
• 41:45
  Speaker 10: are so over the top, Nancy, I can't express this
• 41:49
  Speaker 10: enough to the viewing public. Why do you need to
• 41:53
  Speaker 10: see them outside of court? The thing has been adjudicated
• 41:56
  Speaker 10: at this point in time. There is no value in this.
• 41:59
  Speaker 10: No one is edified by this at all. And families
• 42:02
  Speaker 10: are being destroyed, they're being traumatized, they're having to live
• 42:06
  Speaker 10: through this over and over and over again. People don't understand.
• 42:10
  Speaker 10: You know, you could just be one of these parents
• 42:12
  Speaker 10: and you could be in a store and someone would
• 42:14
  Speaker 10: have seen this on the internet and they'll say, I
• 42:17
  Speaker 10: can't believe what happened to your child. I actually saw
• 42:20
  Speaker 10: the image. Just let that sink in.
• 42:22
  Speaker 9: Just check.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I can tell you one thing, Joe Scott.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Before I would introduce brutal photos like this, I would
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: absolutely clear the courtroom and warn the victims' families.
• 42:33
  Speaker 6: Brian Cobert wasn't always skinny, as surviving roommate Dylan Mortenson
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: said in her description of the mass perp. Golberger was
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: quite plumped before losing one hundred and thirty pounds just
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: in time for his sixteenth birthday. Goberger bragged about the
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: weight laws and a job application, claiming his dedication to
• 42:48
  Speaker 6: running and boxing qualified him for the part time security
• 42:51
  Speaker 6: job at a school in his hometown's Pleasant Valley district.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Again, Doctor Bethany Marshall, I don't know what it means,
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: but it means something. Brian Cober obese then goes on
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: a crash diet. A crash oh my goodness, yes, okay,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: a crash diet. It means something.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: If it was to lure women, what does it mean?
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: The body image? How does that factor into this?
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: Antisocial personality disorder, which is used interchangeably with sociopathy and psychopathy.
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: It causes impulsivity and disregulation, meaning that people cannot control
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: all of their emotions overwhelm them. So somebody who's disregulated
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: and impulsive is just going to eat anything that's not
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: nailed down. Okay, So he probably had to go into
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: this total starvation mode, vegan vegetarian mode to get the
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: weight off so he could predate on women. I mean,
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: you're right, he had to look great to lure women.
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: And what was this one of his first It was
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: as a security guard, a position of power. He was
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: already graduating to the next thing, which would be working
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: in an academic environment where he would have access to
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: women and could study criminology. So it had a dual purpose,
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: access to women and at the same time he was
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: learning and preparing for the upcoming crime.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: You know, Chris McDonough, I'm thinking through all of these
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: red flags, the bleak apartment, the lack of contacts, the
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: objectification of women he would put as a contact red hair.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to take it all in.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: But one of the most disturbing is that Washington State University.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Knew they knew there was a big.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Problem when they heard about the Mersey's Coburger.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: They knew, but they let him stay.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: If they had fired him long before, maybe these murders
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: would not have happened.
• 45:05
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a great point, Nancy. I mean, what did
• 45:08
  Speaker 9: they know, right did they? They obviously had a PhD
• 45:11
  Speaker 9: file hire and deeper on complaints about Brian Coberger. And
• 45:16
  Speaker 9: also if we look back into his apartment for a minute,
• 45:20
  Speaker 9: you know, and this is his office here. You know,
• 45:23
  Speaker 9: it's just such a bleak personality. But look at the
• 45:26
  Speaker 9: Look at the birthday card to the left. It's Teddy
• 45:29
  Speaker 9: Roosevelt on a Torontosaurus Rex. And there's a comment on
• 45:34
  Speaker 9: that that says, this is basically your person your egos
• 45:38
  Speaker 9: and your personality. You know, carry a big stick. But
• 45:42
  Speaker 9: make sure you know you eat them. I eat right there,
• 45:45
  Speaker 9: both of your egos. This is a whole whole other
• 45:50
  Speaker 9: lane for for doc to tell us about. But this
• 45:54
  Speaker 9: really is Brian Coberger, and other people saw it, and
• 45:59
  Speaker 9: WSU most definitely saw it.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, DEBEI, what do you make of the Freedom of
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Information Act to release these brutal photos, the judges taking
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: it under advisement. I don't say there's any way that
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: you can redact out all of that gore.
• 46:17
  Speaker 13: No, And first of all, I don't even know who
• 46:19
  Speaker 13: would want it. I mean seriously, I mean what type
• 46:21
  Speaker 13: of carnography would the petitioner be into?
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: The freaks?
• 46:26
  Speaker 9: Yeah, gore core is what I call it.
• 46:28
  Speaker 13: But make no mistake about it that just because somebody
• 46:31
  Speaker 13: files a petition to make these photos public doesn't mean
• 46:35
  Speaker 13: the court's just going to grant that petition. It's subject
• 46:38
  Speaker 13: to a balancing test where court has to balance the
• 46:43
  Speaker 13: public interest in disclosure against the privacy interests of the
• 46:48
  Speaker 13: next of ken.
• 46:49
  Speaker 9: And if you have a situation.
• 46:52
  Speaker 13: Where you can prevent trauma, preserve dignity, and prevent further
• 46:56
  Speaker 13: distribution of this type of carnage, of court can deny it.
• 47:01
  Speaker 13: There's no automatic right to this material. And frankly, I
• 47:05
  Speaker 13: could see somebody who's into this type of imagery further
• 47:09
  Speaker 13: disseminating it on the black market somewhere, maybe to share
• 47:13
  Speaker 13: in this type of gorecore, or to even propit from it.
• 47:16
  Speaker 13: Who in their right mind would even want this?
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, blood money, blood money, debey, you ask who is it?
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Probably nobody that you associate with.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: It's uh, probably the same people that wanted Nicole Brown's
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: autopsy photos. Them, those people, and they do make money
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: off of it.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: You know what, for once, debate for once.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I pray that you are right and the two judges
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: involved in this matter will hear your voice tonight, debate
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: as we all join the victims families and ask the
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: judges please do not release these photos, these images, this
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: audio where you can hear crying and see what happened
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: to the victims. Please don't do this to their families.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Don't say the law compels. The law does not compel.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Doby was right. You are responsible for the release of
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: these photos. Judge, It's on you. As we wait for
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: justice two unfold, we remember an American hero Officer Darren
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Burke's Dallas PD survived by his grieving mother, Sheri. American
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: hero officer Darren Burke's rest in peace officer Nancy Grace
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend,