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On the ground in France after widespread riots · The Morning Edition

0:01
S1: It's Sunday night in Paris. And bear with me. There's
0:03
S1: some tear gas in the air behind me. Because police
0:05
S1: have just disrupted another effort by protesters to put barricades
0:09
S1: across the street here.
0:10
S2: Riots erupted across France over the weekend.
0:13
S3: The 143 year old clock tower at Limoges City Hall
0:18
S3: engulfed and destroyed.
0:20
S2: What started as student protests in support of striking teachers
0:24
S2: has escalated into a countrywide crisis.
0:27
S4: Shops. Restaurants completely gutted by the rioters last night. This
0:32
S4: wine store, as you can see, is, well, the shelves
0:35
S4: are empty and they're smashed glass underfoot.
0:37
S2: I'm Samantha Salinger Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition
0:41
S2: from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Today, Europe
0:45
S2: correspondent David Crowe on France's worst riots in decades. So, David,
0:56
S2: you're in Paris at the moment. What sort of mayhem
0:59
S2: have you witnessed on the ground and who is involved
1:02
S2: in these protests and these riots?
1:05
S5: What I've witnessed is a sort of a long running
1:08
S5: test of strength between protesters and police. And I've been
1:14
S5: based around the place de la Republique, relatively close to
1:20
S5: the middle of Paris. And I've really focused on this
1:24
S5: area because this was a focal point of the protests,
1:29
S5: especially on Saturday night when there was rioting and looting
1:33
S5: in the street, and now a huge national conversation about
1:36
S5: just how that got totally out of hand and caused
1:40
S5: so much damage and destruction.
1:42
S2: Okay. And so how widespread is the damage, though? Because
1:45
S2: you mentioned, of course, the focal point being in Paris,
1:48
S2: but we know it is actually spread to numerous spots
1:52
S2: around France. So just tell us about this.
1:54
S5: The destruction is widespread and the looting is widespread. And
1:58
S5: so we've got, you know, undoubted proof of huge social
2:04
S5: unrest and high levels of crime. So in the streets
2:08
S5: that I've been walking around, I've seen store after store looted.
2:11
S2: I mean, indeed, I'm sure many have seen reports that
2:15
S2: apparently 1500 shops have been damaged or looted nationwide. I
2:20
S2: saw a report by Alexandre Bompard, the head of the
2:23
S2: French Federation of Commerce and Distribution. I think he's estimated
2:27
S2: cost of the repairs could run into hundreds of millions
2:30
S2: of dollars. So just tell us, Davis. David, walk us
2:33
S2: back to where this began. What day did it begin
2:37
S2: and what is the genesis of these protests in particular, when,
2:41
S2: you know, was there an incident or something in particular
2:43
S2: that prompted them in the first place?
2:45
S5: We're kind of in the fourth week. It began last
2:48
S5: month when students began protesting for better conditions in in
2:52
S5: their schools, and they were arguing for. um, more teachers
2:59
S5: because they were sick and tired of having casual teachers
3:01
S5: who they said didn't turn up. They had an argument
3:05
S5: that schools in wealthier areas were better looked after by
3:10
S5: the government compared to schools in poorer areas. So there
3:13
S5: was this sort of inequality argument. Some of the arguments
3:17
S5: were simply about the fact that the the toilets weren't
3:20
S5: working in their schools. I mean, basic infrastructure didn't seem
3:23
S5: to be functioning. And I think the government took some
3:26
S5: of those concerns on board because as those gatherings of
3:30
S5: school students increased, the government promised to spend more money,
3:35
S5: hire thousands of more teachers, and to act on some
3:38
S5: of those infrastructure problems. But as the protests grew, um,
3:44
S5: other people joined in, unions joined in because they were
3:47
S5: concerned about the cost of living. And so that expanded
3:50
S5: the protest movement. But I don't think this is, you know, Surprising.
3:56
S5: We see it happen with protests all around the world.
4:00
S5: Fringe elements came in. Whether you call them fringe elements,
4:03
S5: they're more than fringe now. But they came in and
4:05
S5: they rode the protest wave. And so it became a
4:09
S5: way for others to really show their anger, uh, at
4:14
S5: the police and at the authorities, at the government and
4:18
S5: run loose. And that's what's been happening. And certainly that
4:22
S5: reached a crescendo on Saturday when it really was. I mean,
4:27
S5: there were rallies across the country about the cost of
4:30
S5: living and about schools.
4:33
S6: If we don't scream, they will not listen to us.
4:37
S6: It's not just high schoolers. It's all the society we
4:40
S6: want to change.
4:41
S4: Shouldn't people go back to studying after four weeks? Is
4:43
S4: enough enough?
4:44
S7: We haven't obtained anything yet, so it would be a
4:47
S7: defeat for us.
4:48
S5: But those rallies as night fell were then used by
4:52
S5: rioters to run amok in the streets of of France,
4:56
S5: one patisserie.
4:57
S4: Six members of staff had to keep guard last night
5:00
S4: to keep the rioters out. And then there are barricades
5:03
S4: on every street.
5:06
S3: Looters taking advantage of the chaos.
5:10
S5: And we saw in regional centers in Lyon, a tourist
5:15
S5: center totally smashed in Limoges in the south of France.
5:21
S5: The town hall, about 150 years old. A heritage building
5:26
S5: set on fire. We're not talking about protesters here. We're
5:29
S5: talking about arsonists, criminals, looters and rioters.
5:35
S2: And I wanted to ask you about the timing of
5:38
S2: when a lot of this violence really got going over
5:41
S2: the weekend, because on Friday evening, this is the evening
5:44
S2: of October 16th, President Emmanuel Macron and his wife, Brigitte,
5:49
S2: they were seen attending a Celine Dion concert. This, of course,
5:53
S2: was on the eve of these nationwide demonstrations and violent protests.
5:57
S2: So has there been much outrage about that in France?
6:00
S2: You know, because I was talking with colleagues here in
6:03
S2: Sydney that perhaps this had a bit of, you know,
6:05
S2: a whiff of Marie Antoinette, sort of let them eat
6:07
S2: cake vibes, you know, partying while ordinary citizens across all
6:11
S2: strata of society there in France have been protesting a
6:15
S2: lot about the government, you know, not doing what it should.
6:19
S5: It's it's an interesting debate, isn't it? Because there's been
6:22
S5: a lot in the media in France and elsewhere about
6:26
S5: how the government is to blame. And certainly on the left,
6:30
S5: they're blaming Macron. But at the same time, on the left,
6:34
S5: they're supporting the protest movement and refusing to sort of
6:38
S5: speak out against the protest movement to discourage the violence.
6:42
S5: This is another classic, um, dynamic. When you look at
6:45
S5: these things at heart, the blame for the riots, the
6:49
S5: destruction and the crime Lies with those who committed the crime.
6:54
S5: Macron is caught because he did go to the Celine
6:57
S5: Dion concert, and he looked like he was unaware or
7:01
S5: unprepared for what was happening. And that's why there's so
7:04
S5: much argument about how the government got it wrong. But
7:08
S5: I would say one other thing about that. When I
7:10
S5: look at the protesters around, uh, the place de la Republique,
7:16
S5: I see a large number, right? And so I'm not
7:20
S5: going to sit here the morning after and say, oh, yes,
7:23
S5: the police should have acted better to bring this under
7:26
S5: control with the scale of what's been happening. Uh, you've
7:30
S5: really got to ask whether you can have enough police
7:33
S5: to bring it under control because you're seeing, you know,
7:36
S5: a lot of young kids, mostly young men, are running
7:41
S5: amuck in the streets. I mean, I know there's a
7:43
S5: debate about some of the actions of some of the police, but, um,
7:47
S5: you know, they're not hurting them all up and carting
7:50
S5: them off. It's very, very hard for them to deal
7:54
S5: with protests of this magnitude.
7:57
S2: And I really want to ask you about what the
7:59
S2: mood on the ground just among people is like, because
8:02
S2: Macron has been in power for a very long time now.
8:06
S2: France is due for elections for presidential elections in March
8:10
S2: or April. So are people on the ground feeling a
8:13
S2: lack of hope that a government, whether this one in
8:16
S2: its remaining six months or the next one, will fix
8:18
S2: the current problems with cost of living and the sort
8:21
S2: of decrepitude of schooling conditions.
8:25
S5: Everybody knows that it's not really fundamentally about Macron anymore,
8:28
S5: because it's about who's going to replace him. He cannot
8:31
S5: run in the presidential election with, you know, a two
8:35
S5: stage voting process in March and April next year. There
8:40
S5: are term limits. So he's out. He can't turn things
8:43
S5: around in six months. There's a sense of disappointment because
8:47
S5: he has not revived France in the way that he promised.
8:50
S5: But the crucial choice now is whether the country chooses
8:54
S5: a left wing president next year or goes to the
8:57
S5: right with Marine Le Pen and National Rally, which is anti-migrant,
9:03
S5: which is about cutting down on welfare and restoring traditional
9:08
S5: French values. So you can see where Marine Le Pen
9:11
S5: is coming from. On the left, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, who's the
9:16
S5: leader of a party called France Unbowed in in English. Um,
9:21
S5: he is walking alongside the protesters at these rallies. He's
9:27
S5: criticizing the violence. Sure. But Jean-Luc Mélenchon is being blamed for,
9:35
S5: I guess, encouraging this uprising, which has allowed some violence. Um,
9:43
S5: so you've got this competition between left and right ahead
9:47
S5: of the presidential election. And these riots totally shaped the debate.
9:54
S2: And I wanted to ask you, I mean, we've spoken about, obviously,
9:57
S2: mass destruction across the country, you know, possibly hundreds of
10:02
S2: millions of dollars required to rebuild that. More than 500,000
10:07
S2: protesters marched on Saturday alone. But I have seen reporting
10:10
S2: that this is actually the biggest student protest in France
10:14
S2: since the famous student protests of May 1968, which shook
10:19
S2: the government of, you know, at the time, which was
10:21
S2: then led by the French president, Charles de Gaulle. Based
10:24
S2: on what you've witnessed on the ground and what you've
10:26
S2: been reading, do you reckon that's accurate, that these really
10:28
S2: could be the biggest student protests since those very famous protests?
10:33
S5: When I talk to people on the streets in Paris
10:37
S5: on Sunday, I was one of the questions I would
10:41
S5: ask was, is this worse than you've seen before? Because
10:45
S5: of course, we've seen protests in recent years across France.
10:49
S5: Whether it's the yellow vest movement about the cost of
10:51
S5: living and working conditions or, you know, the student protests.
10:56
S5: And I was told, yes, this was shocking. One guy,
11:00
S5: a lovely guy, a chiropractor who lives nearby. He said
11:03
S5: it was like a civil war on Saturday. So there
11:07
S5: is a real sense of dismay among the French people
11:09
S5: about the scale of these riots. I was not around
11:15
S5: in the 68 protests, so I'm very wary of drawing parallels.
11:21
S5: The 68 protests, yes, were about students, but it was
11:24
S5: about social change. And I'm not aware of looting being
11:28
S5: a major part of those protests. Whereas, you know, crime
11:33
S5: and looting and rioting was a real characteristic of what
11:37
S5: happened over the weekend. And I talked to French people.
11:41
S5: One of them said to me, you know, she can
11:43
S5: understand why people were demonstrating about school conditions and about
11:47
S5: the cost of living. About the price of filling up
11:49
S5: your tank of fuel at the petrol station. But she
11:52
S5: was horrified by the way that turned into violence. And
11:56
S5: she condemned that. And I met her when she was
12:00
S5: in the place de la Republique trying to clean up
12:02
S5: the rubbish. So I think you can look back at
12:06
S5: times like 68 as a moment of social change and
12:09
S5: political change. I'm not sure you can do that with
12:12
S5: this one, because it's much more about social unrest. And
12:15
S5: who are these people who are resorting to looting and crime?
12:21
S5: I didn't hear, um, chanting in the street for a
12:24
S5: social cause on Sunday. I saw a young guys really
12:30
S5: want to take it up to the police and show
12:34
S5: their strength.
12:35
S2: But is there a feeling there in France of holding breath,
12:40
S2: I guess, to see whether this could grow even bigger?
12:43
S2: Because of course, in addition to these protests, there have
12:46
S2: also been protests in Albania, in Spain, in Italy, in Portugal,
12:50
S2: and in some of those places over similar concerns, certainly
12:53
S2: in terms of the cost of living. So is there
12:55
S2: that holding your breath sort of feeling to see whether
12:58
S2: this could grow much larger in France?
13:01
S5: It's an interesting moment where you don't really know how
13:03
S5: bad things could get. That's true. Um, there were protests
13:07
S5: in Brussels that did seem similar. Um, the protests in Italy,
13:11
S5: I'm not sure about. Um, I'd have to go to
13:14
S5: Milan really to, to understand what's happening there in Albania,
13:18
S5: the protest movement was against, uh, a conservative leader. Uh,
13:23
S5: and one of the concerns among the protesters is that
13:27
S5: he's doing deals with the Trump administration or people around
13:30
S5: the Trump administration and Trump family. So different factors in
13:34
S5: different countries. And I'm, I've got to be cautious about
13:38
S5: making too many generalizations. Um, but I think in the
13:43
S5: broadest level. Yeah, you can say that there's a there's
13:46
S5: a deep unhappiness in Europe. Conditions. Living conditions are getting
13:51
S5: harder and people are responding to that in different ways. Um,
13:57
S5: some are responding by shifting to the conservative side of
14:00
S5: politics and becoming very anti-migrant in their views. But it's
14:05
S5: reflected in different ways in different countries. But underlying it
14:09
S5: is a sense of lack of growth, lack of prospects
14:12
S5: for a lot of people in Europe.
14:14
S2: Well, thank you so much, David, for your time.
14:17
S5: Thanks a lot, Sam. Always good to talk.
14:24
S2: In other news today, the chief economist of the nation's
14:28
S2: biggest bank has warned that the reserve Bank could crash
14:31
S2: the economy if it pushes up interest rates much further
14:35
S2: amid signs that oil prices could be stuck above U.S.
14:38
S2: $100 a barrel in the run up to Christmas. Adding
14:41
S2: to inflation pressures. The Australian Defence Force is participating in
14:45
S2: war games in Canberra this week that simulate a regional
14:49
S2: conflict with China and how U.S. submarines, as well as
14:52
S2: those yet to be acquired under Aukus, would be utilised,
14:56
S2: and low cost carrier Vietjet's hopes of expanding into Australia's
15:00
S2: domestic market have hit a snag after the United Kingdom
15:04
S2: High Court granted an order to freeze the carrier's assets
15:08
S2: as part of a fight with a hedge fund seeking
15:10
S2: to recover debts. You can read more at the age.com.au
15:16
S2: or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Tammy Mills, and
15:23
S2: our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick.
15:27
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15:33
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