Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 161. Freedom from Victimhood with Guest Jon Hollifield

Transcript

161. Freedom from Victimhood with Guest Jon Hollifield · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:10
I found my freedom in you. I found a toy I can't lose, and
0:20
thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
0:24
and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me.
0:29
I found. Welcome to the four freedom
0:34
podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
0:37
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
0:40
everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
0:44
Seyfried and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the.
0:49
Four Freedom Podcast, what a great day it is to be here with
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you today. I'm always so grateful and
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thankful that you tune in to us every single week.
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And if you ever have a question for us, we more than willing to
1:03
entertain that and talk about it and listen to it.
1:06
Today. We're just me.
1:07
Brett is actually not here. He's not been feeling well these
1:11
last couple of weeks. If you'd be praying for him, we
1:14
hope to have him back next week. But right now he's been having
1:17
some debilitating headaches and just some hard times and doctors
1:22
have got him on some different medicine, different medication
1:25
to work on that. And so as they continue to work
1:28
on that, we're going to continue to pray for him and be there to
1:32
help him as as he needs the help that he needs.
1:35
But I would ask you if you would just remember him and pray for
1:38
him. Maybe reach out to him on
1:40
Facebook, social media and tell him that you're thinking about
1:42
him, that you're praying for him during this time.
1:44
I know that would greatly. He'd greatly appreciate that.
1:48
I want to. Remind you of just a couple of
1:50
things. Before we get started with
1:51
today's episode, we have our website for our four Freedom
1:56
Cigars collection. We right now we have 3 working
1:59
on 1/4 cigar and it's a great time, man.
2:02
We've been able to have some great conversations over that.
2:05
And if you'd like to be a part of that, jump into that
2:08
collection there the the link will be at the show notes.
2:12
You can also find on our website at for freedompodcast.com and a
2:17
couple of different ways you can order there from the 1689
2:20
collection. And just thankful that we have
2:22
that opportunity to be able to do that.
2:24
We're going to have some different specials and deals
2:27
coming out once we get our full line of four cigars ready.
2:30
And I'm just excited about what Lord's going to do in that Ave.
2:34
that we've jumped through. If you would like to join us,
2:39
we'll be going to Israel in just about a year.
2:41
We've finalized some dates in the end of January, February.
2:45
We're making sure that's all going to work out well and we'll
2:48
have that up and live on our website.
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If you'd like to go with us, It's going to be a great time.
2:52
It's a great opportunity for us to be able to do this and we
2:55
would love for you to join us and be a part of what the Lord's
3:00
doing in Israel. I just want to take a moment as
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I have, this is the 161st episode of the podcast.
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I was reflecting back and thinking back on all that we've
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been about being able to be a part of and just been able to
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record the interviews that we've had.
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And I'm just so thankful that we have been able to do this and
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just thankful for you as listeners, I've been able to be
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a part of this. The text messages, the phone
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calls that I've gotten have been a blessing to me.
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And I'm thankful that this microphone and the avenues that
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Lord has given us has been a blessing to others as well as a
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blessing to myself. And so looking forward to what
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the Lord's going to do through this over the next couple of
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years as we continue on the podcast in this realm of what
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we're doing. And thank you again for
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listening. I can't say it enough as I've
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been thinking through that. And thank you for your
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encouragement as well, Man, I get so many text messages,
4:01
direct messages that just encourage me, and I'm thankful
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for that. So today we've got a great
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episode for you. We're talking through our Woke
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series and Wokeness in the Church and got a great 1 today
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on Victimhood and what that looks like.
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We've got a great guest that you'll hear about in just a
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minute, but let's get started with our intro into Wokeness
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from Victimhood. We cannot truly worship God
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while we stay silent on injustice in all kinds of areas.
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And I know as a white pastor I have blind spots, so I am part
4:46
of the problem. James Paul elected to unhitch
4:53
the Christian faith from their Jewish.
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Scriptures. And my friends, we must as well.
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White people fear black men. That's not fair, but it's true.
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Jesus repents of his racism and extends healing to this woman's
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daughter. I love this story because it's a
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reminder that Jesus is human. He had prejudices and bias and
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when confronted with it, he was willing to do his work.
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I believe in the non binary God whose pronouns are plural.
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I believe in Jesus Christ, their child who wore a fabulous tunic
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and had two dads and saw everyone as a sibling child of
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God. I believe in the rainbow spirit
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who shatters our image of 1 white light and refracts it into
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a rainbow of gorgeous diversity. I believe in the Church of
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everyday Saints, as numerous creative and resilient as
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patches on the 8th quilt, whose feet are grounded in mud and
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whose eyes gaze at the stars and wonder.
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I believe in the calling to each of us that love is love is love.
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So beloved, let us love. I believe glorious God help my
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unbelief. This woke self loathing.
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And we will never let the woke left take it away.
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It's because they're putting woke ideology to a woke.
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Mob that can't even tell you what a woman is.
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In this season of the Four Freedom Podcast, we want to
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bring to you some enlightening topics that deal with the
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wokeness of the church. We want to bring to light some
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issues that are often overlooked, and we hope that
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it'll be a blessing to you in your listening experience.
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Hey, hey, hey, hey, everybody. OK,
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Some wounds don't leave bruises. Some chains don't make sound
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when they tighten, and some people carry pain that no one
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else sees until it's too heavy to bear.
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One day, Daniel sat at his kitchen table, staring at his
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hands. They were steady, but he didn't
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feel steady. Across the room, his wife,
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Sarah, stood at the counter, stirring a cup of tea, and she
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had no intention of drinking. The silence between them was
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familiar, too familiar. It wasn't the kind of silence
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that brought peace. It was the kind that suffocated.
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He finally spoke with his voice low, almost as if he were afraid
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to let the words out. I never thought it would get
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this bad. I don't know who I am anymore.
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Sarah didn't respond the right way.
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What could she say? She had seen it happen, piece by
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piece. The man who once laughed easily,
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the man who led his home with confidence, had become small,
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unsure, afraid. Not of a stranger, not of some
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outside force, but of the person he was supposed to be.
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His help, his love. She finally spoke, her voice
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careful, quiet. Daniel, have you ever thought
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that maybe this isn't normal? The small, bitter chuckle left
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his lips. Normal.
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He wasn't sure what normal was anymore.
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Every time he tried to stand up for himself, he was told he was
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selfish. Every time he gave in, he felt
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weaker. He had spent years trying to be
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the good husband, a godly man, but somehow, no matter what he
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did, it was never enough. Sarah had seen the signs long
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before he had. The way he hesitated before
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answering his phone, the way he braced himself before walking
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through the door, The way he second guessed himself before
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making the smallest decision because he knew that if he had
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gotten it wrong, there would be consequences.
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And now here they were, sitting in silence of a home that didn't
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feel like a home anymore. Sarah took the breath.
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Her hands gripped the back of her chair.
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Daniel, I think you're being abused.
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The word hit him like a hammer. Abuse.
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It was a word for broken bones and bruises of the faces.
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Not for whispered accusations, not for guilt trips and
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gaslighting. Not for him.
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For a long time, he didn't speak.
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He just sat there, letting the weight of it settle in.
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Then, finally, in a voice small it barely sounded like his own,
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he asked the only question left to ask.
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What do I do? And that was the moment the
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silence started to break. The moment of chains loosened
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just a little, because for the first time in years, Daniel
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allowed himself to ask the question he had been afraid to
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consider. What if it's not my fault?
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What if there's a way out? For many years, the people
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around us, the idea of victimhood is reserved only for
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the most extreme cases, those that bear visible scars.
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But today, we will discuss what abuse looks like, where it comes
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from in the many forms that it has, and how the church hasn't
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always known how to handle it. Well, today we're talking about
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victimhood care, and how to respond biblically to those who
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are suffering. Let us jump in today with our
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episode. Welcome back to the episode.
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We're excited to have you here today.
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Today I will be just solo. Brett is having some medical
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issues and he's not going to be to join us.
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And so reached out to an old friend of mine, someone who's a
11:09
mental confidant of mine and asked him to jump on with us
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today to talk about this. His name.
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You may know him. You may recognize his voices.
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The one, the only Jonathan Wayne Hollyfield.
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Killing me. Mandy killed me.
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It's good to good to be back. How you doing James?
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Man, I'm doing good. We are excited to have you back
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on the show with us. It's a it's a odd sight to hear
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you back on here, but man, we are doing well.
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Our family's doing well. Things are going good and I hope
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the things are going well in your area.
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No sickness in your family, church doing well as well.
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Yeah, everything's been got been very good and gracious to us and
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everything's going well. Snowing here today, Yeah.
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Checked the Apple weather on my phone three times and it said no
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snow, just cold and looked out the window and I said Nope, it's
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snowing. Yeah.
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Don, you got to go down to the Super Bowl, man.
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Tell us a little bit about that. This isn't part of our show, but
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you got to go down and enjoy down being down there.
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You got to see some celebrities. Really, the celebrities got to
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see you, if we're being honest. But how?
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How was it while you were down there, my friend?
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It was interesting. It was a you got to see the
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fans, the fan atmosphere a lot. And so there was a lot of I told
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before the the game, I told several people, I said that is
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definitely more Eagles fans down there than there were Chiefs
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fans. And that was an obvious thing.
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There's definitely more excitement among the Eagles fans
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than there were Chiefs fans, like the Eagles fans were just
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when they came through in a cluster, just like roaring,
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excited. The city itself, although it had
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some very beautiful landscape, it smelled, man, it's stunk like
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it was a it, it smelled bad. Great food, had some really good
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food. While we were down there, we
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were on a three day evangelism trip before the Super Bowl and
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saw God do some some wonderful things amidst a lot of darkness
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that was there. And yeah, we saw some
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celebrities trying to hand a track to Kourtney Kardashian and
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her husband, the guy from blink 182, and they refused to gospel
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tract coach John Gruden, who may be back in the NFL soon.
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We handed him a gospel tract and he smiled and said thank you.
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I think a couple of our guys saw Adam Sandler and try to hand him
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a gospel tract. He said no, but his security
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guard smiled and said thank you. So yeah, it was a it was a fun
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time, some good camaraderie with some other brothers in Christ.
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And so it was. Yeah, we had a great time.
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Yeah, that's awesome. Glad you got to do that and go
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down there next year. It's going to be in California,
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so I don't think you're going to go there.
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You know, with your big time pastoral salary, I don't know if
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that's going to happen or not. But well, today, John, we are
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talking about, we're in this series of wokeness in the church
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and talking through different issues.
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We've talked through cancel culture, we've talked about
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identity politics, We've talked about what wokeness is.
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And today we want to address the wokeness of victimhood.
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A couple years ago that the movement of the Me Too movement
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came out and everything became a victimized thought and action.
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And so we want to sort of take this out of victimhood, turn it
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into a biblical conversation, what it looks like, how we can
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deal with it, because we believe it's such an important topic to
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deal with in the church and really to deal with from a
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biblical perspective that sometimes, you know, we
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encounter these things. And how do we handle this?
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How do we give support? How do we offer support?
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And so we're excited to have you as a trained professional, a
15:08
trained certified biblical counselor, getting his doctorate
15:12
in counseling, maybe an honorary doctorate from the For Freedom
15:16
podcast. We'll figure out some of those
15:18
things. But John, what is, how do we
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start out by talking about abuse victimhood?
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How do we define these? What are some terms that we
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could use? Well, I don't know about all
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those credentials. I do have my honorary doctorate
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from the RFP though. Yeah.
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Well, you know, that's good too. Yeah, yeah.
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Abuse and victimhood. So we're approaching this from a
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standpoint of not just what is the right thing, but also sort
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of tearing apart a very poor and secular definition that is sort
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of redefined some of these terms over last several years.
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And so abuse is, is a very loaded term, a lot of people.
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And The thing is about these terms is, is that when one
16:10
person uses it, everybody thinks they're talking about the same
16:13
thing. When other people are using it,
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it's sort of like they're talking in cross directions.
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And that's the words matter. Definitions matter.
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You have to define some of these terms.
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So, so yeah, abuse is, I think one way of understanding this
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is, is abuse is like a mistreatment.
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It is someone who has been mistreated or wronged or abused
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in many ways. For the longest, for for many
16:44
years, abuse was understood as that which is physical abuse,
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violent physical abuse against someone by someone that they
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should view as a friend or a loved one or a caregiver.
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There is verbal abuse and verbal abuse is that which is just
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coming at somebody with angry tirades and criticisms and just
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very, very hurtful things a lot of times in the direction of the
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person who's giving it knows what things would specifically
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hurt the other and therefore unleashes that.
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We, we, we, we left after a couple of years, a couple years,
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several years ago, we left the idea of just abuse sort of
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encompassing those factors. And now you pretty much can take
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the word abuse and put anything in front of it.
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And now just about anything can become abusive.
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And I think that's where we should have a little bit of
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pause. I think we should have some
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concern because I think that are we are we being helpful and
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doing that? I think that's a question we
18:05
need to ask now. Don't cancel me yet, OK?
18:09
But I think it's a question we need to ask on whether that has
18:12
that is a helpful thing or if it's more helpful to understand
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abuse in the in the categories that I just explained it.
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And then when abuse happens in those subcategories, we are
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understanding it happening in these, for instance, I believe
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the context of of this talking about church hurt or church
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abuse, OK, which has been called spiritual abuse.
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All right, well, is it, is it helpful to make a brand new
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category of spiritual abuse? Or is it, is it better to then
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to understand the definitions of abuse that we already have
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physical abuse, emotional abuse, and then see that those two
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things are happening within that context?
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All right. So therefore, has physical abuse
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happened? Has sexual abuse happened?
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Has verbal abuse happened? OK.
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Are those things happening in the context of a church?
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And I think that's, that's a probably a better way to
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evaluate it and then work from it from there.
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As far as as help. Now I know people listen, I'm,
19:22
I'm not saying you're wrong if you disagree with me.
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I'm saying I'm making a suggestion.
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Could that be a simpler, better way than now labeling anything
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and everything its own category of abuse?
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And next thing you know, we have, you know, literary abuse
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and we have television abuse. You know what I'm saying?
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What I'm saying is this this don't think that I'm going soft
19:50
on abuse. It's actually the opposite.
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See, I think that doing that with abuse dilutes true abuse.
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It dilutes it dilutes it and it and it makes it less.
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I could use the same example for if we get to it on a discussion
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about trauma. But we'll get there and just
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maybe we'll get there. Maybe we won't, but it's OK If
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you want to bring that back up. Victimhood, let me talk about
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victimhood and then I'll turn it back over to you.
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James. If we define victimhood, I think
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I just plugged this in Google and the AI for Google watching
20:26
out for the AI. That's right.
20:27
The victim definition of a victim is someone who has been
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harmed or treated unfairly, while victimhood is a way of
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being that involves feeling powerless.
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A second definition of victimhood, The condition of
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having been hurt, damaged, or made to suffer.
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Especially when you want people to feel sorry for you because of
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this. Use this or use it as an excuse
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for something. All right, that's interesting.
20:57
Notice the wording there. All right, we go from being
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hurt. OK, now that's a common human
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experience, right? We understand being hurt.
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We were bit by a dog as a 5 year old, right?
21:12
We were hurt. There's there's hurt there.
21:14
People has been hurt. There's a, some people have seen
21:17
this movie Black Hawk Down. There's a psychologist in the,
21:21
in the 90s or, or something that, that, that, that
21:23
referenced this movie. And I thought this was a very
21:25
astute observation by the psychologist.
21:27
And she said, you know, she was working with somebody and said,
21:30
I, you know, I've been through this, I've been through this,
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I've been through this. And she was trying to talk about
21:34
how she back then, before woke culture came in, how she helped
21:39
people and she realized through her work, this story resonated
21:44
so well from Black Hawk Down. There's a, there's a scene where
21:47
Tom Sizemore's character, he, they're, they're, they're taking
21:53
fire. I mean, it's just all Hell's
21:55
breaking loose in Mogadishu there.
21:57
And they get what they call a cut V.
22:00
It's like a Humvee convertible where the top's taking off and
22:03
they're taking in machine gunfire.
22:04
And there's a couple guys, Tom Sizemore's character, who's a
22:06
Colonel. He gets into the he's, he's been
22:09
shot, he's in the car. He tells the guy to drive.
22:14
He looks over to the guy. He's in the passenger seat.
22:16
He looks over to the guy or he's in the back and there's a guy in
22:20
the, the the passenger seat and the driver.
22:24
And he tells the guy to drive and they're not moving.
22:26
And he looks up. The guy that was in the driver's
22:29
seat had just been shot and killed.
22:31
So he grabs him by the vest and pulls him out of the driver's
22:33
seat. And he looks over the guy next
22:35
to him and he says drive, He said, or it says he's a
22:39
Sergeant, I guess. He says, sarge, I've been shot.
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He says, we've all been shot. Drive.
22:46
And what this psychologist was saying was like, here's the
22:49
thing you need to realize, and I'm not trying to minimize what
22:52
people go through, but it's it's it's a truth that you need to
22:55
understand about everybody. And it helps you understand and
22:57
interpret your stuff. Everybody's been shot.
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Now, is all of that equal? No, but it helps you understand
23:08
that you can push on and you can keep going when you understand
23:13
you're not the only one that's ever gone through anything.
23:16
You're not the only one that's ever been hurt.
23:19
This, this world, this fallen, sinful world that we live in.
23:22
The Romans 8 says the creation groans because of the fall, that
23:28
the common human experience is not flourishing, it's suffering.
23:35
And so when you see the definition of victimhood, you
23:37
see these words. I think the interesting word
23:40
here that it talks about with victimhood is damaged.
23:44
And I think that may be probably the most problematic way that
23:49
this stuff in a woke understanding of it is
23:55
influencing people. And that is that they are
23:58
cementing and grounding in people that they have been
24:02
damaged and that there's not going to be repair or they don't
24:08
have any answers for repair if they're damaged.
24:11
And I think that is that is a major problem.
24:16
I know that's long winded and you got a lot of stuff on here.
24:19
So this may be like a three hour episode so.
24:23
Well, and I think the big thing when we think of victimhood is
24:26
we've all been hurt. Yeah, But there's a pattern of
24:30
suffering that begins to happen oftentimes set up hands of
24:34
someone they trust or someone that's close to them, a spouse,
24:37
a pastor, a family member. And that's when the victimhood
24:42
becomes this way of do I live with this or do I start seeking
24:48
help? We've all been hurt, but how do
24:51
we get help when those things come?
24:54
And so when I think when we from our point of view as a pastor,
24:57
as someone who who deals with these things on a daily basis,
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when we're faced with someone who's reaching out for help, how
25:05
do we handle that, John? How do we help someone who's
25:09
confessed of their abusive situation, who's confessed that
25:13
they are in the situation that is out of their hands, it's out
25:16
of their control, How do we handle that?
25:18
How do we respond? I mean, you can go through a
25:24
couple of the just the the obvious ones, right?
25:27
Compassion, care, love. That should be no brainers.
25:34
Yeah, that should be no brainers.
25:36
That that that's how we are responding.
25:40
But let's see, you said how do we handle?
25:45
How do are we talking about handling and helping?
25:50
Or we just talk about handling? Let's talk about handle.
25:52
First, OK, we we need to, we need to respond.
25:58
Well, no, I guess this goes away with with this as well.
26:01
Our first response should be that of Christ.
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I mean, this is the thing. And it's not like, oh, you know,
26:11
the typical ridiculous Christian answer.
26:13
Jesus. OK, first of all, you're not
26:17
going to go wrong with Jesus, all right?
26:20
And we shouldn't not listen to me if you're a Christian.
26:24
Do not be intimidated by the world.
26:28
It says that and and and let them intimidate you that because
26:32
you seek Jesus as the answer, that you are somehow less
26:36
educated or stupid or ignorant or some type of dumb
26:41
fundamentalist. Because Jesus has changed the
26:46
lives of so many different people of so many different life
26:51
experiences. Christ is the answer.
26:56
There is not a better solution. Think about what you what what
26:59
what we're saying here. Are we willing to admit that the
27:02
world has come up with a better answer to suffering than Jesus?
27:10
Yeah. Are we OK with saying that?
27:12
Because I'm not OK with saying that.
27:14
And I think the problem is, and this may be like I'm jumping all
27:18
over the place here, but the problem is, is that we're not
27:21
equipped and we either don't have the confidence and our and
27:26
our Bibles that Jesus is sufficient, or we may have that
27:32
confidence, but we're just not, we're not, we're not prepared to
27:36
know where to go. OK.
27:39
So I think and we can, we can, I can dive into that a little bit
27:43
more, but I think that we handle them.
27:46
We look at Jesus. So if you were to say, if I said
27:49
do this, and I do this sometimes in counseling, just let's just
27:55
do this fun exercise right now with you, James.
27:58
All right, give me, I'm going to say the word Christ or Jesus.
28:04
And I want you to just in one word, give me the first 3 terms
28:09
that come to your mind when thinking of Jesus.
28:12
Just in one, one word, Savior, Savior.
28:16
All right, give me another one. Supper.
28:19
Supper. Give me another one.
28:21
We stay with asses, John. How?
28:23
Are you do? We alliteration, let's go with a
28:28
friend. Think about that.
28:32
Number one, all three of those things are 100% true about
28:35
Christ #2 think about those things and how much those truths
28:42
about Jesus. When somebody's been abused or
28:46
is a victim, they need that. Yeah.
28:50
They have the they they can identify with Christ because he
28:52
is a sufferer. Someone who has become a victim
28:56
needs a savior now. That's what the woke culture is
29:00
like. No, you're enough.
29:02
You're all right. You're you know, you are
29:05
powerful enough in yourself. That is a Pagan message.
29:09
Listen to me, Christian. That is a Pagan message.
29:13
If you were enough, why would you ever need a savior?
29:17
OK, then what? The other one was friend.
29:20
Yeah, Think about somebody who's been through abuse or hurt.
29:25
I mean, a friend means everything.
29:28
Jesus is perfect in all three of those categories.
29:31
So we go to Scripture and we see where he has been those, and
29:35
then we encourage our soul, which is what has been hurt in
29:41
those categories. I think when, when you made when
29:44
you started that conversation, My mom went to 1 character in
29:47
scripture. That person was the woman that
29:50
came to Jesus at the well, right?
29:52
The woman that came to Jesus at the at the well had been married
29:55
several times, had living with a man that wasn't her own husband.
29:59
You see the the pain, the suffering.
30:02
She's looking for something in life that you can't find and she
30:05
meets Jesus and what does Jesus say to her?
30:09
I'm here to give you eternal life.
30:11
I'm here to give you a living well that's never going to run
30:15
dry. And she's thinking, Hey, I would
30:17
need that physical help. And he looks at her and says,
30:20
no, no, this is a whole lot better and bigger and greater
30:24
than the physical need that you have.
30:26
I'm giving you a spiritual need that will never run dry.
30:30
And when her life is changed by Christ, what does she do?
30:33
She goes and she tells everyone that she's met about this Savior
30:37
named Jesus, this man who gave her living water and her life
30:42
was changed. Did the abuse go away the the,
30:46
the seven husbands that she had had, Did those husbands go away?
30:50
We don't know that she stopped living with the man.
30:52
We we don't know the rest of her story, but we know that Jesus
30:56
changed her life at that point. The suffering didn't go away.
30:59
The pain of the past didn't go away, but the thing that changed
31:03
was Jesus was in her life. Yeah, let me give a word of
31:07
caution, too, OK? We don't know if the woman at
31:11
the well like the woman at the well.
31:13
Great example. All right.
31:16
But we also don't know if the woman at the well was suffered
31:19
abuse. Yeah, possible.
31:23
But let me tell you something. This is a caution.
31:25
And. And for those of you that's not
31:26
going to like what I got to say, OK, You can write Ben or write
31:31
write James and tell him all about, you know, that he can
31:35
hear it all. Yeah, my e-mail is John
31:38
Hollyfield. That's my e-mail, Yeah.
31:42
But here's the thing, the reason I'm going to give this caution
31:45
is because we, we, we, we must be on guard of this or else
31:49
we're going to end up doing the exact same thing that the
31:52
legalist and the the old time fundamentalist did as well to
31:57
the Scriptures. And that is we've got to be
31:59
careful not to be reading things into the passage that's not
32:02
there. All right?
32:04
And that is one thing. James plays this video or the
32:08
sound clip on his on some of these podcast episodes that go
32:15
along with this whole thing. And one of the things that those
32:18
that are woke are doing with the Bible is they're taking the
32:22
social justice issues and reading them into the text that
32:26
is never there. Now, that doesn't mean the Bible
32:30
is silent on abuse. There's several issues and
32:32
actually James has several places we're going to, we're
32:36
going to talk about a little bit that are legitimate issues that
32:39
deal with these types of things. But you got to be careful not to
32:43
say, oh, well, look at this, look at this, look at this.
32:46
And then you're reading into the situation because you're
32:48
informed of some secular ideology about men and women.
32:53
You're an egalitarian and you say, well, this woman has to be
32:56
like abused. She has to be, you know, put
32:59
down. OK, we'll take this text,
33:02
exegete what's there and pull out of it instead of reading
33:06
into some social justice woke issue into the text.
33:12
If you don't, you're doing the exact same thing that the
33:14
fundamentalist did on the other end.
33:16
Then let's go to a separate issue, which is the lady that
33:19
was caught in adultery, right? The Pharisees brought her before
33:24
Jesus. There was abuse from them that
33:28
brought her out to be an example to the community.
33:31
And how did Jesus respond to that?
33:33
OK, this is a great example. All right.
33:35
You're giving me an inroad to talk about something.
33:37
I wanted to talk about this subject.
33:39
That's why I'm trying to be here.
33:40
OK, give me that little softball toss up for you my friend.
33:43
All right, well, here's the deal.
33:45
Here's the thing that a biblical worldview does with victims.
33:49
OK, let me say this. Victims, there are such thing as
33:53
as real victims, OK? People have been done wrong.
33:56
OK, The example that James brings in John chapter 8 and we
34:01
can do maybe another podcast debate on whether that should be
34:03
in the Bible cancelled. Hey, it's in the King James,
34:07
baby. It's there.
34:08
I just got cancelled with that that that note right there.
34:10
OK anyways, John chapter 8 woman caught in adultery.
34:15
When you look at the examine that whole situation and what
34:17
the Pharisees were doing, is it is it reasonable to deduce that
34:22
she was being done wrong? Yes, I think so.
34:25
I, I think that, you know, scholarship agrees with that OK
34:29
as well. But here's the thing.
34:33
When somebody's a victim, a biblical worldview, and this is
34:36
the, the difference between what a secular concept and a worldly
34:39
concept does. When somebody's been victimized
34:43
or they've been abused, the the approach is, you know, you have
34:50
been done wrong, you have done nothing wrong.
34:53
You are you. You are the victim and
34:57
everything needs to cater around you and you are the one that
35:01
everybody needs to feel bad for and that they need to repent.
35:07
You did nothing wrong. That's the thing.
35:09
And that's some of a lot of the training comes.
35:12
That's one of the first things that a lot of the training comes
35:14
to people and says whenever they've been misused, hurt, a
35:18
treat, mistreated, abused, whatever, you've done nothing
35:22
wrong. You've done nothing wrong.
35:24
And they say you've got to assure that person you've done
35:26
nothing wrong. A biblical worldview doesn't
35:29
come this way because think about this.
35:32
What did Jesus say to her? She came and he said, where's
35:38
your accusers? What did he do first?
35:40
He dealt with their sin. He dealt with their wrong.
35:44
And whenever they were no longer there to abuse and they were,
35:49
they left. Then he looks at her and says
35:51
what? Where are your accusers?
35:54
Yeah, I have done, my Lord, he said.
35:58
Go and send no more. Go and send no more, which means
36:00
what he dealt with her sin too. And that's the problem because a
36:05
lot of the social justice woke left culture comes at this thing
36:11
and it says that you cannot deal with any wrongdoing done by the
36:16
person if they've been hurt. This is what perpetrates takes
36:19
somebody from being a victim to victimhood.
36:23
All right, victim is a is a thing that someone has been
36:27
hurt, but victim should not become an identity.
36:31
And the problem is, is that that's what the, that, that
36:34
this, this, what culture has done is it's taken victim and
36:38
it's gloried in the idea that it's an identity.
36:43
And that is opposed to a biblical worldview.
36:46
The biblical world view is I find my identity and a perfect
36:50
savior named Jesus Christ. I find my identity in Christ.
36:54
And as I find my identity in Christ, the light of Christ
36:57
exposes the things in my life that I have done wrong, and then
37:01
I get those things right with him.
37:03
And so therefore a biblical world view doesn't automatically
37:07
say, when somebody comes and says that they've been abused or
37:10
hurt, oh, you're a Sinner, it's your fault.
37:12
It's not what I'm saying because that's not what a lot of people
37:14
are going to interpret what I'm saying.
37:16
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we treat them like
37:19
Jesus. We go to them with compassion.
37:22
We love them. We point out where they have
37:25
been done wrong. And then we look and we say, all
37:29
right, is there any area where maybe you before God, a holy
37:35
God, and say that you need to get right with him.
37:40
And we hold it. We must be held responsible.
37:43
Four things that we do. So in other words, like this, I
37:46
say, is it somebody's find? I must clarify these things.
37:49
I know I'm going along here and we're sort of off the beaten
37:52
path, but somebody's been abused.
37:56
Somebody's been sexually abused, OK.
37:58
Is it their fault? Is am I saying it's their fault
38:01
and they need to repent of that? No, I'm not.
38:04
I'm not saying that. Don't run off and say that.
38:06
I'm saying that. Here's what I'm saying.
38:09
We must be honest and say that a lot of times our response to
38:16
when we've been hurt can tempt us, or we can be tempted in our
38:22
response to be sinful, can we not?
38:27
I mean, when you've been hurt, some people respond in anger and
38:31
they want what revenge. Isn't that what Hollywood has
38:35
really taught? That the appropriate response to
38:38
whenever you've been done wrong is seek revenge?
38:42
Yeah, well, our Sony school teacher, one of our deacons at
38:44
our church, he, he makes the statement all the time, and I
38:47
love it. I've used it ever since he said
38:49
it. He said Jesus teaches us that
38:52
when we've been hurt to turn the other cheek, he said.
38:55
But oftentimes what we want to do is turn their cheek.
38:59
Yeah, Yeah. And that's the response of human
39:02
nature is when you've been hurt, you hurt back.
39:05
You want to get even. Yeah.
39:07
OK, another common response to whenever we've been hurt is to
39:12
to escape our hurt and in the form of substance abuse, OK,
39:20
that's sinful. And that has very bad
39:26
ramifications for even those around them.
39:28
OK, that must be dealt with. You can't sit there and say
39:32
you're never get, you're not going to help someone by saying,
39:35
oh, you've been done wrong. It's not your fault.
39:37
This is not a wrong. No, you have to deal with those
39:40
things. And that's how I'm sorry.
39:42
That's how Jesus dealt with those things.
39:43
Long, long. I know, another rambling answer,
39:46
but there you go. I think it's good.
39:47
I think in that response we already really talked about the
39:51
next one of how do we offer support?
39:53
You know, we, we're there for them.
39:54
We hold the hand of those that have been hurt.
39:56
We walk through that journey with them.
39:58
We offer them support and help and care.
40:01
We we give them a community where they feel like they can.
40:04
Respond appropriately and we put a small group around them or
40:08
they can feel like they've got someone they can go to.
40:11
They've got a group of people that can relate to what they're
40:14
going through. They, they know that they're
40:16
struggling as well. They've been through similar
40:19
situations and, and concerns and they can help.
40:23
And so we begin to give them options and ways that they can
40:26
see Christ. They can seek a community and
40:29
help others in that same way. I want to briefly and, and you
40:34
sort of talked on it for a minute there, but, but why are
40:37
these issues happening? Why is, is this something new,
40:39
John? Is this something that just
40:41
popped up in the 21st century in the 2000s with with the
40:46
different movements or has this been something that has happened
40:50
as long as we can remember? You talking about abuse in the
40:55
church? Victimhood and abuse in the
40:57
church, Yeah. No, this has been going on since
40:59
the beginning. OK.
41:02
This listen, this isn't new, OK? It's not new.
41:06
And from two guys that are pastors, we don't need to shy
41:11
away from that. Yeah, OK, it's not new and it's
41:16
not, you know, to to jump ahead. It's not something that's going
41:20
to go away. And here's the reason why it's
41:23
called sin. It's called total depravity.
41:28
It's called radical corruption. It's called the sinfulness of
41:32
man, the doctrine of sin. And so while you still have
41:35
sinful people, that is going to happen.
41:40
OK, We cannot sin proof our churches.
41:46
We can try our best to preach Scripture and the Holy Spirit
41:51
speak in the sanctify our people, but here's the thing
41:55
that we need to be doing. All right, you go back.
41:58
I think one of the reasons why it's so prevalent now is not
42:03
because it's happening more. It's because with social media,
42:11
podcasts, television documentaries, I think that it's
42:16
being talked about, it's being out there and people are being
42:21
connected a lot more. So it's not.
42:25
It's not, I don't know if I could say with confidence or
42:29
with authority that it's happening more.
42:33
That would, in order to say that you'd have to be able to examine
42:37
all churches from all eras for the last 2000 years.
42:40
That's just impossible. Yeah, that's just impossible to
42:43
do. And I tend to think because of
42:46
my understanding of the biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of
42:48
man, that that's not the case. What do we do in response to
42:54
that? We we have to go to Scripture,
42:59
and we have to follow Scripture on how to deal with sin in the
43:03
church. And we have to hold those not
43:07
just people in the church, but pastors.
43:10
And let me say this, not just pastors, but people in the
43:12
church all have to be held accountable.
43:16
But let me say this when pastors don't hold church people
43:24
accountable for their sin in the church, church people will not
43:31
hold their pastors accountable for sin in the church.
43:37
That's good. It goes both ways.
43:38
You can't sit there and say we need to hold these pastors
43:41
accountable. Yes, we freaking do.
43:44
We do. But you don't want the pastors
43:47
to be exercising church discipline because then that
43:49
makes them look abusive. No, it does.
43:52
It goes both ways. You're not going to get church
43:54
people with backbone enough to hold elders accountable.
43:58
If those elders have not taught their people how to hold each
44:01
other accountable through church discipline, it's just not going
44:05
to happen. So you have to have a healthy
44:08
understanding of that and it's got to be taught to the church
44:11
and it's got to be practiced and they got to see how it's
44:13
practiced. I love it.
44:16
Hey, as we continue this talk on you made a you made A1 great
44:20
thing to talk about Scripture and how the Bible talks about
44:23
these things. I think it's important to
44:26
understand that Scripture doesn't shy away from difficult
44:30
issues. As you read through the Bible,
44:33
as you read through each situation and stories of
44:36
people's lives, these difficult issues and people being
44:40
mistreated, there are numerous examples throughout the Bible
44:44
that we could talk about where abuse happens, whether it's
44:47
either physical or emotional abuse.
44:50
And, and the beauty is we get to see how God responds in that
44:53
situation. So let's talk through some some
44:56
examples. I know you've got a couple.
44:59
We can go back as far as Genesis and talk about Hagar and the
45:04
abuse that happened there. We can talk about Tamar and the
45:07
story of abuse with Ammon, her half brother, And we can talk
45:12
through the when leaders don't respond and what that looks
45:15
like. So, so John, what's your
45:17
thoughts and and what are some examples that you would give
45:21
with how the Bible deals with abuse?
45:23
Well, I think the second Samuel 13 situation with Tamar and
45:29
Amnon and Absalom and King David is a cautionary tale.
45:35
It's a tragedy of what happens when leadership doesn't handle
45:42
abuse properly, because what flows out of that situation for
45:48
the next 20 years in that Kingdom and in that family is
45:52
just sin after sin after sin after sin.
45:56
And it has ramifications that reach out as far as the Kingdom
45:59
as a whole, as far as war. So it's a cautionary tale of
46:04
whenever leadership doesn't handle abuse properly.
46:07
All right, I think it in the situation of I like that you use
46:12
this example in the in the situation of Elijah and Queen
46:15
Jezebel in First Kings. I think you have that situation
46:19
is is a cautionary tale of when leadership is abusive towards
46:25
God's people. OK, and that that that is a
46:30
problem there. My mind goes to this that you
46:35
think about the aspect of victim and victimhood.
46:39
The Bible. I think that a scriptural
46:42
example for a victim. I'm going to go to him again.
46:47
Is Christ. I mean, let's think about Jesus
46:51
for a second. He was perfect.
46:56
He was innocent. He was wrongfully accused,
47:02
wrongfully maligned, betrayed, arrested, false trial done,
47:10
physically abused, verbally abused.
47:16
Orchard wrongfully killed. I mean, he was murdered, OK, by
47:24
the government. And emotionally, every one of
47:27
his followers and friends left. They abandoned him.
47:30
I mean, all of the all of the little boxes you can check.
47:35
You can check all the boxes. Jesus was the victim.
47:39
Now here's the deal. If you've been through hurt, you
47:42
think you can't find a comfort in Christ.
47:46
You think he doesn't know what you've been through.
47:50
He knows and then some. OK?
47:53
He identifies with our infirmities.
47:58
OK, so Jesus is someone we can go to as an example of a victim.
48:04
And what did Jesus do? What did he say on the cross?
48:10
You. You preached.
48:11
You preached a message on the sayings of Jesus last year,
48:14
right? All right.
48:15
What was one of the responses Christ had towards those who
48:20
victimized him? Father forgive them, for they
48:23
don't know what they do. Now are you saying that that's
48:28
that's a response? Listen, let me tell you what I'm
48:30
saying. I'm saying that is a Christ
48:33
centered response. Yeah.
48:35
Towards those that hurt us, is that going to be able to be
48:39
expected of you right away? I don't think so, yeah.
48:43
But I think eventually, for we cannot hold bitterness in our
48:47
heart towards anybody. I'm I'm preaching through the
48:50
book of Acts right now, John, and as I'm studying ahead right
48:54
as pastors, we don't we, we live in the weak, but we also look
48:57
for the future of where we're going to be at.
48:59
I'm in chapter 3 right now, but I know that I'm getting to
49:03
Stephen in the first Martyr of the Church.
49:05
Right, Stephen? Act 7 And what does what does
49:08
Steven say? As he's being stoned to death,
49:12
he looks up and he sees Jesus standing at the right hand of
49:15
the Father. And he looks around and he says,
49:17
Father, forgive them. He says lay not this sin against
49:21
their charge. Yeah, but you brought out a
49:23
great point there that just. Same thing.
49:26
Why was he able to do that? Because he had Christ.
49:30
Well, I think because what did you say?
49:32
He said he looked up. And what?
49:34
Saw the father. Saw.
49:35
He saw Jesus. I think the reason he was able
49:39
to do that in the moment is because his eyes were fixed on
49:44
Jesus. Yeah.
49:45
Hebrews. Yeah.
49:47
And I think that's the the idea. Like we must fix our eyes on
49:51
Christ. Turn your eyes upon Jesus.
49:53
Look full in his wonderful face. That's right.
49:55
OK What about that? Yeah.
49:59
Yeah. Did you write it?
50:01
Probably not. OK, that's what I would go to.
50:05
As far as victim, I want to look, read this passage for you
50:08
at 2nd Corinthians on the idea of victimhood.
50:12
Because I think one of the aspects of a, of the victimhood
50:16
is that this cementing that you were a victim, you're a victim,
50:19
you're a victim and that you know things should be done for
50:25
you. You can't.
50:25
You need to have this bubble around you so it protects you at
50:29
all times. All this, this stuff and it's
50:33
almost like some people that the the mentality that's taught to
50:38
them is to brag, like to boast, to be to to wear their
50:44
victimhood as a badge. I want, I want you to listen to
50:48
what Paul writes about this in 2nd Corinthians 11.
50:54
He says in verse 23, are they servants of Christ?
50:57
I'm a better one. I'm talking like a madman with
51:01
far greater laborers, far more imprisonments, with countless
51:05
beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the
51:09
hands of the Jews the 40 lashes. Less 1/3 times I was beaten with
51:14
rods. Once I I was stoned.
51:17
Three times I was shipwrecked. A night and a day I was adrift
51:21
at sea on frequent journeys. And danger from rivers, danger
51:26
from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles,
51:31
danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, dangerous sea,
51:36
danger from false brothers, and toil and hardship through many a
51:41
sleepless night. And hunger and thirst, often
51:44
without food and cold and exposure.
51:46
And apart from other things, there is a daily pressure on me
51:51
of my anxiety for all the churches.
51:53
Who is weak and I am not weak? Who has made the fall and I'm
51:59
not indignant? If I must boast, I will boast of
52:03
the things that show my weakness.
52:09
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed
52:13
forever, knows that I'm not lying.
52:19
That's powerful, man. What did he say?
52:21
He said, listen, I'm not, he says.
52:23
What he's saying was I'm not going to boast about this, but
52:26
if I'm going to boast, I don't mean to boast in what I've been
52:29
through. I need to boast in my weakness
52:33
because he says another place in chapter 12.
52:35
It is in my weakness that I am made strong.
52:40
Why? Because it has become is then
52:42
that I'm becoming more dependent upon who?
52:45
Christ. Yeah.
52:48
So I think that's sort of good, man.
52:49
And and it's a great example to use Jesus and Paul with what
52:53
they've been through and how they respond to those things.
52:57
But I think from our side of it as well, I want to look at, you
53:01
know, when, when these things happen, one, will abuse and
53:06
victimhood ever end would be the first question.
53:10
And then how do we avoid these situations and really protect
53:14
people, right. We want to the, the, I'm an SPC
53:18
pastor. They just proposed a budget to
53:21
allocate about $3,000,000 in prevention and how to how to
53:26
handle abuse and how to do the research and, and find what's
53:29
been going on with the cover up and abuse that's happened with
53:32
the recent things have been coming out from the past.
53:36
And So what is the ways that we can help prevent these things?
53:40
And I listed a couple things we can talk through it.
53:43
What's your thoughts on that, John?
53:47
It will end one day when Christ returns.
53:51
Yeah. It will end.
53:54
We will never be able to eradicate it before glory,
53:58
before heaven, before Christ returns, can we?
54:04
Here's the thing though. The question is not can we
54:07
prevent it or stop it? The question is how do we honor
54:10
Christ? How do we glorify God in our
54:13
response, in protection? And whenever this stuff happens,
54:22
and I think that's what we need to be, we need to be asking.
54:25
We need to be asking is what is the most glorifying way that we
54:29
can we can protect? What is the most glorifying way
54:32
we can respond? OK, and so I like your answers
54:36
here that that you, we, we talked to her before we got on
54:39
here. We need to we need to know, we
54:42
need to be, we cannot be ignorant.
54:46
We cannot be ignorant of how abusers act.
54:50
We cannot be ignorant of how of tactics that abusers do.
54:57
We must there's and there's. Listen, we are living in a time
55:00
where there's so much education about there and good biblical
55:03
education out there. There's not an excuse.
55:07
You do not have an excuse anymore if you're a pastor and
55:11
you do not have Deepak Raju's book on guard on your bookshelf
55:16
and have at least skimmed through it.
55:24
I was pointing to the book John. Oh, I thought you were telling.
55:28
Me. No, it's right below that red
55:29
helmet right there. Oh, I was like, what is he
55:31
doing? Is the finger telling me hold on
55:33
one minute? I thought something happened
55:35
with the video. I was pointing to it on my
55:37
bookshelf right there. But you need to get it.
55:39
You need to get it and you need to, you need to look at it.
55:41
You need to be aware. I mean, so, yeah, there's a lot
55:47
of good things out there for for education, yeah.
55:50
It's a huge thing. I think that pastors and and
55:54
those that are are in this spiritual warfare, they need to
55:58
be educated on how to identify and help in those areas rightly.
56:05
I like how Jim Neuheiser says that he said that the DSM
56:09
Diagnostic Statistic manual. It gives great definitions that
56:13
help us identify things, but it doesn't get solutions.
56:16
So we have this opportunity to give the Bible as a solution,
56:20
Christ as the help, the church as the body that is building up
56:23
one another together. And so we meet together in that
56:27
way to help one another. And so yes, we have the
56:31
education, but if we don't have the way to identify when someone
56:34
comes in and says these are the things that I'm going through
56:38
and we just brush it off as nothing.
56:40
Well, we therefore are enabling those that are one been abused
56:44
and a reasonable and others. And so we get this opportunity
56:47
through the education that we have to help and handle these
56:51
situations that are sensitive, that are require wisdom, that
56:54
require compassion, that require us to identify how we can give
57:00
help. I think the second one for me
57:02
that I would write down would be training and awareness, right?
57:05
We need to have a culture of openness where people are not
57:08
ashamed to talk about things and not blame others, but come and
57:13
say, hey, I need an environment where I can speak out without
57:16
fear of shame, retribution, acting upon what I'm doing, what
57:20
I'm going through, and giving this training to where people
57:24
can know that they have that area where they can come and
57:27
talk about where they're going through.
57:30
Yeah, and, and people need to be aware, be trained so they can be
57:35
aware of certain things to look for.
57:39
Yeah. When you see a red flag, don't
57:41
dismiss the red flag. Yeah.
57:44
OK. And then I like this that you
57:48
put on there. And this, this may go more for
57:51
pastors because you know what? James saw a report on this.
57:54
And I think it's 100% true. The majority of pastors in this
58:01
country are more liberal than their congregations.
58:06
And so therefore, I think that pastors need a little bit more
58:09
training in this than their congregation is.
58:11
And that is a theology of biblical justice and biblical
58:14
mercy, not secular social justice and secular mercy,
58:20
because it's going to fall far short.
58:22
It's coming from a humanistic perspective.
58:24
And here's the problem with social justice.
58:27
It'll never execute accurate justice.
58:32
It's just not. It's just not going to happen,
58:36
all right? Biblical justice, whether it
58:39
happens in this life or not, we know biblical justice will be
58:43
meted out in eternity, and so we can trust that.
58:49
I love it, John, last thing and I know we went long and if
58:53
people want to continue, listen, they can.
58:55
You mentioned this thing of trauma.
58:56
I want to bring it back up, talk through the idea of trauma and
59:00
then we'll sort of shut down the show today.
59:02
What is your thought on trauma, how to deal with trauma and the
59:07
the aspects of that? That's a large question.
59:11
Let me let me let me bring it back around to sort of what I
59:14
was alluding to earlier. I think that there's a, there's
59:17
a problem going on with trauma right now that we need to be
59:20
discerning about and that is this.
59:23
Again, don't hear what I'm not saying.
59:25
I'm not saying trauma is real. Trauma is 100% real.
59:29
But around 2014, a book came out called The Body Keeps the Score.
59:34
I have read the book from cover to cover.
59:35
I've highlighted several things in the book.
59:37
I think that if you're going to be somebody that works with
59:40
those that have gone through trauma, you need to have a heat.
59:42
Very, very solid biblical foundation and you probably need
59:46
to read that book because you need to be aware of some of the
59:48
things you're going to get involved with when it comes to
59:51
dealing with people that's been through hurt because he has some
59:53
examples in there that it's just like rock your world and you
59:56
didn't know that that's some of the hurt that people's been
59:59
through. OK, so there are some positive
1:00:02
things about the book. There are also some problems,
1:00:06
some major, major problems with the book and it has spurred a
1:00:10
trauma culture in this. I mean the things sold like.
1:00:16
I mean it was number one on the best sellers list for over 2
1:00:20
years. I've got the book, I'm pretty
1:00:22
sure. Yeah, I mean, it was a massively
1:00:24
popular book. But what it's done is now they
1:00:27
have the left has jumped on this thing of trauma.
1:00:31
And now here's the problem with it.
1:00:33
If everything is trauma, nothing's trauma.
1:00:38
If you were made fun of on social media, you have not been
1:00:41
traumatized, OK, If somebody that, that if you've lost a
1:00:46
loved one, that is not trauma, OK, that's suffering.
1:00:53
We have redefined the word suffering with the word trauma.
1:00:58
And the problem with that here's the problem with that is that it
1:01:01
sucks the definite the, the, the, the, the any meat or weight
1:01:07
to the word or the meaning of trauma out of it.
1:01:10
Therefore, if, if I'm, if I'm taking to somebody has been mean
1:01:16
to me or I can, let me just say it this way.
1:01:19
If somebody has bullied me on social media and I'm equating
1:01:22
that to somebody who's been raped or somebody who's been
1:01:25
through war, I might as well spit in the face of the person
1:01:29
who's been raped and went through war.
1:01:32
I've, I've said what they've gone through is there's no, no
1:01:35
different, no more harmful then then somebody that's gone
1:01:40
through something on social media.
1:01:44
That's the problem we've had that spurred from this one of
1:01:47
the problems that spurred from this trauma.
1:01:49
I have another book on my on my bookshelf by a neuroscientist
1:01:54
who's I don't think he's a Christian, but a neuroscientist
1:01:56
that actually debunks 42 scientific claims that Bezel van
1:01:59
der Cote makes in his book The Body Keeps the Scores.
1:02:02
So if you're a fan of Body Keeps the Score, you should probably
1:02:04
look this book up and get it. I'm, it's, I'm looking at it on
1:02:09
my bookshelf, but I don't, the title is not on the side of it.
1:02:12
But I mean, if, if you want to know what that book is, reach
1:02:15
out to James and I can send the, the, the title of it to James.
1:02:18
But I mean, this guy just debunks because Banzer van der
1:02:22
Koch, who wrote the book, is not a scientist.
1:02:25
He's a clinical psychologist. He's not a scientist.
1:02:28
And this guy's a neuroscientist and he debunks all these claims.
1:02:32
Trauma's a real thing and we're not going to help people and
1:02:37
trauma until we define trauma correctly.
1:02:43
We're not being helpful to people by categorizing all
1:02:47
suffering as trauma. OK, again, I go to this.
1:02:52
What is a help and aid for trauma?
1:02:54
Trauma, I think gets down to the idea of something that you've
1:02:56
been through that is caused a fracture in your soul.
1:03:04
And where is the healing balm for your soul?
1:03:08
We find it all through scripture.
1:03:11
We find it in Christ. There's no simple answer to
1:03:15
trauma. It's going to take a lot of
1:03:17
work. It's going to take a lot of
1:03:18
time. It's going to take, you know,
1:03:21
there's a lot of things to work through.
1:03:23
So I'm, I'm not trying to minimize that, but I think we
1:03:26
need to be discerning when people talk about trauma.
1:03:30
And another thing that goes along with this trauma and
1:03:32
victimhood idea is that a lot of the secular concepts and trying
1:03:37
to help with trauma don't ever heal people from their trauma.
1:03:42
It basically keeps them there in this state of like never moving
1:03:46
on. Yeah.
1:03:48
And that's that's not helpful. That's one thing with the the
1:03:52
modern therapist psychiatric work is there's never there's
1:03:57
never a way out, right. You, you have to continue for
1:04:01
the rest of your life to continue this therapy session to
1:04:05
like, like my goal as a biblical counselor is not to meet with
1:04:08
that person for the rest of your life.
1:04:10
Yeah. I want to give them enough tools
1:04:12
in their tool belt to be able to deal with the problems that
1:04:16
they're going through and help somebody else.
1:04:18
Yeah. And they're going to help other
1:04:20
people. And maybe, hey, once a year you
1:04:22
have doing some things. Let's talk, let's meet.
1:04:24
But let's have some intense sessions for a couple of months,
1:04:28
maybe a year. But, but there's got to be a way
1:04:31
where now you're dealing with these things on your own through
1:04:35
the help of Christ, through the help of the Bible, through the
1:04:36
help of the, the tools that we've given you so that you're
1:04:41
not living with the dependence of a therapist.
1:04:44
And this whole, I hear people all the time.
1:04:46
Well, I've got to talk to my therapist first.
1:04:49
What when did your therapist become God right.
1:04:52
And so that is the the whole point of goal of and and you you
1:04:57
did the whole reason why is it's all money thing, right?
1:05:00
They they want to continue to get you in the Well, not all.
1:05:04
I can be very cynical sometimes, but I mean, if you have to keep
1:05:08
coming back, you have to keep paying to come back.
1:05:11
And so it. But let me say this, I don't
1:05:13
want to be that guy who just lumps everybody who works in the
1:05:17
secular psychology field as just a greedy, money grubbing person
1:05:22
who's not interested in helping people.
1:05:23
That's not true. The I would say the vast
1:05:27
majority of those that are in that field are have a strong
1:05:31
desire to help others. So it's not their, their, their,
1:05:35
their motivation is not that. But.
1:05:42
And say I haven't seen it happen before.
1:05:44
Yeah. Well, John, closing remarks.
1:05:47
Thoughts on victimhood and abuse in the church.
1:05:51
I know I can come across because of my passion.
1:05:54
I can come across sort of like maybe like I'm angry and I hope
1:05:58
you don't see that. I hope that's not what came
1:06:02
across. We do care about those that have
1:06:08
been through hurt and our, our desire is to point them to the
1:06:14
one who can heal their hurt. And that is, that is Jesus
1:06:17
Christ. And not only do I believe that
1:06:21
because of my confidence and scripture, but I also believe
1:06:25
that because I've seen it, I've, I've experienced it, I've, I've
1:06:28
seen it, I've seen people come to healing.
1:06:31
I've, and I've heard thousands of testimonies of people that
1:06:34
have done the same. So our goal was to #1 see where
1:06:42
there's been a bad shift in thinking on this subject,
1:06:49
infiltrate even some of the church and, and point to a
1:06:54
better biblical way. And I hope that.
1:06:57
I hope we've done that. Yeah.
1:07:00
That's great. Well until next time we hope you
1:07:03
enjoyed this. To God be the glory great things
1:07:06
he has done. Found my new name, Found that
1:07:10
good grace, Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face
1:07:15
when I found my beginning that has no ending.
1:07:18
I found that second chance. Found my best friend.
1:07:19
Found my forgiveness, Found my happiness.
1:07:21
I've been singing ever since I found my freedom.
1:07:38
Thanks for listening to the Four Freedom Podcast.
1:07:41
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