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Clinical Interventions, Mental Health Crises, and Navigating Recovery with Will Crosswell · Finding New Waters

• 0:00
  What's the point of being sober if life's not like significantly
• 0:03
  better? Like like, because ultimately if
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  it's not, then we're not going to keep doing what we have to do
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  to stay sober, right? I mean, at the end of the day,
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  like my life has to continually be like full of juice.
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  Like that's a word I use a lot. It's like, where am I getting my
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  juice, you know, And because if I'm, you know, feeling empty and
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  just life is dull and whatever, like, what's the point?
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  All right. Welcome back everybody to
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  another episode of Finding New Waters.
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  My name is Bea Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
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  Development here at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh.
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  Sitting here with our CEO, Justin McClendon, and our very
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  special guest today, Mr. Will Crosswell in Austin, TX with
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  Crosswell Interventions and Crosswell Counseling and a buddy
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  of mine. Welcome, Will.
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  Thank you. Thanks for having me man, sad to
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  be here. Glad to have you, man.
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  Yeah. We're excited to have you.
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  I we're talking a little bit before we got started about
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  Willie Nelson and some other things.
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  I'm wearing a Willie Nelson shirt and it's a cricket shirt,
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  both Austin sort of brands. And I also was thinking about,
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  you know, the guy who's the Co founder of cricket shirts.
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  I met at Woodbury sports Camp and you went to Woodbury Forest
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  School correct? I sure did.
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  I sure did. I'm a proud tiger.
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  Yeah, and. You're a rival of mine, so.
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  That's right. But we'll get past that.
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  We will. We got past it.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  And I mean, and also we were just talking about, you know,
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  like, I've just been very fortunate to get to meet so many
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  people that I like know and trust who are, you know, well,
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  as one of those people's becoming, you know, friend.
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  We talk, we have other interests in common just from like the
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  playing golf through the treatment world.
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  It's really amazing. And we met out at this Jay
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  Walker event and just realized like, OK, it's my kind of guy
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  here and then learned about what he does.
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  And he's, you know, he does a lot of good work and so glad to
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  have you. So tell us though, should we
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  just give us kind of like a little bit of a, you know what,
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  what I'll do you do? Yeah, so I'm a therapist and
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  then in the treatment industry or just the space, mental health
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  and substance use God, over a decade now getting old and, you
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  know, kind of cut my teeth and in the treatment center world
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  and got my LCSW. And, and yeah, I've been a
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  therapist for a while and I pivoted about a year and a half
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  ago probably and to doing clinical interventions and
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  clinical case management, concierge therapy and, you know,
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  helping families through crisis and just being that kind of
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  navigator and, and voice of clarity for really stressful,
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  confusing, dark, dark times and helping them get on the other
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  side of it. Well, we, I hear you the, the
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  word dark, you know, I, I know that I've been through some of
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  my own. How did you find your way into
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  this? World yourself.
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  Yeah, yeah, Also, I've been in recovery coming up on 15 years
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  in May and yeah, thank you. It's hard to believe and it
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  does, you know, it's really just right.
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  Like I can remember day one and the preceding years like it was
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  yesterday, thank thankfully. And you know, I was kind of your
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  classic spoiled brat, you know, college drug addict who just
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  burn it to the ground and then graduated to the big leagues and
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  found heroin and crack cocaine, which expedited my demise.
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  And thankfully, you know, and at 24, I went to to treatment for
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  the second time, one of a couple other little outpatient stents.
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  And I was just a shell of myself and 150 lbs.
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  And they were put me on Ensure shakes because I was
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  malnourished. And, you know, Long story short,
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  I did what I was told to do and, and found the 12 steps and, and
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  what, what really clicked with me was, you know, the helping
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  others and, and I liked it and I felt like I was good at it.
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  And I was like, I want to do this forever.
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  And I want to be as skilled and, you know, I'm going to get as
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  good as this as I can. And so so I pursued my masters
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  in social work and in her essence history.
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  That's awesome. You mentioned that you so you're
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  working and doing clinical work in in treatment centers and then
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  kind of made this migration or transition to you know, do an
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  independent work. And then that I'm curious like
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  how, how did that land with the intervention piece?
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  Was it out of like necessity or just see the need from the
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  clients or like how did how did that transition?
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  Take place that's a good question and you know when I
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  first got in the field I I knew exactly what I wanted to do when
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  I got into grad school so I got you know working with with
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  addiction and mental health was I I was fast tracked to know I
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  wanted to do that working in inpatient.
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  So I worked at a great program called the Arbor here and
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  outside of Austin and was the men's program director there
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  and, you know, every day and residential and detox as as you
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  guys know, it's just so intense and, and just the transformation
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  is so, so dramatic and, and it was addicting, you know, I mean,
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  it was just awesome, but it also was hard.
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  And so over time, I found myself drifting into more just kind of
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  less intensity, lower levels of care and, and I found myself in
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  private practice doing individual work and once a week
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  and, you know, talk through stuff.
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  I do EMDR and trauma work. But it was just, you know, at
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  the end of that continuum and over three years, you know, I
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  found myself a little uninspired, honestly, and a
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  little aimless. And it was just kind of
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  wondering like what, what is my path here?
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  Because it's, I wasn't feeling inspired.
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  And that's a problem for me, you know, I don't tolerate that
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  well. And so, so, you know, it just
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  dawned on me and a couple things just clicked and I was like, I
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  need to get back in the trenches.
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  And I didn't get into this space to just talk about stuff, you
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  know, and I needed. And I, for whatever reason, you
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  know, the way I'm cut, I can just handle intensity.
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  My nervous system, you know, I have to do my own work, you
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  know, that's critical. But my nervous system can handle
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  crisis and chaos. And so that's, I know I just
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  kind of had to dig deep and kind of under the realization of
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  like, I need to throw myself back to the end of the trenches.
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  And so, so I ended up, you know, I've done interventions before
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  and every day and residential is an intervention with somebody
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  who's trying to leave and you know, all that stuff.
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  But I, I really felt like I needed some, you know, specific
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  training too. So I did the love first clinical
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  interventionist training with part of Jeff and Deborah J, who
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  are just, you know, the most incredible people and O GS in
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  the fields, you know, and so I did that and and I haven't
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  looked back and it's the best thing I've ever done.
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  I hear ya. And I you said when we're
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  talking about what you do and you said clinical
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  interventionist is, what does that mean versus just the word
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  interventionist? Yeah, You know, as a LCSW and
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  just the training and experience I have with with acuity and
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  complexities and the the trauma lens and just, you know, the all
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  the layers that make up an individual is struggling with
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  substance use and mental health issues.
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  And just a product of that training and schooling and
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  experience comes just an insight that that a non clinician maybe
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  doesn't have, you know, and it's not a better or worse thing.
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  It's just that's it's just a unique skill set.
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  And so I think what I'm able to do is a clinical intervention is
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  to handle more complex cases and also work with mental health
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  primary cases where you know, someone who's is not a
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  clinician, just really it's not appropriate, you know, for
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  obvious reasons. And so, you know, from
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  schizophrenia to really severe bipolar depression, you know,
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  you name it, I've fortunately had a lot of experience in
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  training to be able to, to understand that and understand
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  treating that, understand how to navigate kind of, you know,
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  communicating with someone and, and also working with the
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  families and educating the families around just what we're
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  dealing with and just being really sensitive to, you know,
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  how do you, how do you kind of promote someone with, with
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  something, you know, that's a little more complex?
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  How do you promote them? Getting help and being willing
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  to get some help. It's, it's a really delicate
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  thing. And so I think that's where the
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  clinical interventionist, you know, that that kind of skill
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  set comes into play. Thank you for that answer.
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  What? How does the preparation and
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  then the execution of intervention differ when it's a
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  primary mental health versus a classic alcoholic addict?
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  Yeah. Well, you know, it's just so
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  case by case. And I will say this, you know,
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  and I get a lot of mental health primary calls that on further
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  investigation we find there there's some substances almost
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  all the time honestly and so but occasionally not.
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  And even if there is like those the you know those are deflating
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  and Co occurring and they they work off each other.
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  So you have to treat them both. But you know, I think it's just
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  so case by case. But you know, when, when you're
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  dealing with maybe a drug addict like me, you know, just a
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  little, you know, 24 year old frat Boyd, you know, heroin
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  addict, like you can come in and just tell it like it is and, you
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  know, communicate love. And that's kind of your standard
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  intervention process, let's say, you know, but with someone with,
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  you know, really complex trauma, you know, some schizo effectives
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  and things like that, like you're not going to just roll up
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  on them and say, Hey, you know, you're screwed unless you go to
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  treatment, you're not going to do that.
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  I mean, that's not appropriate. And you know what suicidal
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  ideation history. And you just got to be really
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  careful about how you do that because my big thing and I think
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  hopefully all interventions feel its way.
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  The the great, the biggest responsibility I feel and my
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  main, one of my main objectives, of course, alongside getting
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  that person help is I want this experience to bring a family
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  closer together. The last thing I want is to
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  create further rupture, further discord, more resentment, you
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  know, more animosity. Like I'm not trying to cultivate
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  that. That's, you know, that's the
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  opposite. And so it's such a huge
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  responsibility that I have, you know, of this family is putting
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  all their trust in me to not just get their loved one help,
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  but to be a family again, you know, and to, and to start, you
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  know, to create that foundation. And it starts, I think in the
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  intervention, it should at least.
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  And so, so that's, that's what informs the approach and, and
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  with the person, you know, when I assess, you know, on the first
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  couple zoom calls that I do with family, I do a pretty deep dive
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  assessment with them of just really, I'm trying to understand
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  every in and out of the situation so that, you know, we
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  can really curate of an approach that is going to promote healing
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  and togetherness and repair. And you know, of course it
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  doesn't always work out that way.
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  And but you know, the family, you know, is consistent.
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  Usually if I do my job well and and having this be a loving
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  healing experience and the language that they use and the
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  actions that we take and that I recommend they take, seek that
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  you know. Yeah.
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  So you, since you've been doing them yourself for a year and a
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  half roughly, but you've been doing them basically for way
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  longer. Just probably as somebody who's,
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  you know, early recovery, 12 step calls and then, you know,
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  as you're getting your credentials working at treatment
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  centers, how different does the general landscape of people who
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  need to be intervened upon look now versus, you know, maybe 5 to
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  10 years ago? Gosh, I mean, as you guys are
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  probably experiencing the psychosis and psychotic symptoms
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  that are just proliferating with, you know, the Super potent
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  weed products, marijuana products, they're like off
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  brands, random stuff. You can buy a gas station that
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  God knows what's in there, Kratom, Kava, all that stuff,
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  man. I mean, I'm seeing psych like
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  delusions and distorted thinking and all these psychotic symptoms
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  just left and right and probably 70% of my cases, which is, you
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  know, really stark contrast to 10 years ago.
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  That was like kind of rare. And so when you're navigating
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  someone and psychosis who's, you know, believing things that
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  aren't real, and that's just the sensitivity to how do you
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  navigate like talking to someone who's, and, and getting out in
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  front of or, you know, just kind of influencing someone who's
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  really not in a stable place. I mean, that's really
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  complicated. So that that's the biggest
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  difference I've seen in the last 10 years, 11 years that I've
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  been doing this. Yeah.
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  It's been a real, it's been a real shift.
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  And as you mentioned, we do experience that and you know,
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  it's a, it's a, it's widespread because, you know, I'm, I'm sure
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  you're experiencing the same thing, Will, but the more
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  professionals that you talk to, it sounds like everybody's
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  having the same experience with that.
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  It's it's unfortunate for sure. I had lunch with a fraternity
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  brother this past weekend who's got a son in college and just
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  talking about. Yeah, I did, you know, he wasn't
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  like, he wasn't. He's not wild like us.
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  He's in a fraternity, but not like super wild like we were.
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  He's like, yeah, he doesn't really drink.
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  He just smokes a lot of weed and the and like the delta 8 and
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  he's kind of he didn't even know what to call it really.
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  I was like, Hey, man, I'm not telling you what to do, but just
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  like that stuff is not harmless. I'm just just telling you.
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  And he just had he had no idea. He's like, what do you mean?
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  They can get it in a they can get it in a gas station, you
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  know, and they don't have to be 21.
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  I was like, I mean, So what you know, you can also buy, you
• 15:04
  know, Scotchgard at the at CVS and huff that you know, good.
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  Old Duster. Yeah, I mean, but that's and I
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  don't know, I don't know what it's going to take for more
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  people to be really aware of that because it doesn't seem to
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  really be sinking in with the general public that this stuff
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  is is so harmful. And, you know, there's the whole
• 15:27
  issue of of illegal in most states, THC about how, you know,
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  starting in the 60s, there's this lobby to make weed legal
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  and you know, it was a cut. It was a totally different drug
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  that they were lobbying for then.
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  And by the time it kind of gets traction becomes legal in a lot
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  of States and decriminalize in most states, it's a totally
• 15:49
  different animal. That's that alone is already so
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  potent that's driving people into psychosis or creating it
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  or, and then there's this whole gas station stuff.
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  And So what do you, what do you tell people who would listen to
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  this, who have kids who are, you know, adolescents and older, who
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  are they're, they're, they're hearing about this stuff for the
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  first time or not. So I think it's hard for a lot
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  of them to believe that this is so harmful.
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  What do you what would you tell them?
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  Yeah, I mean, as you were saying all that, I was just thinking
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  about, you know, my experience with the drugs I was using.
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  And I mean, I, you know, smoked crack for about 5 months
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  straight every day, all day alongside other stuff.
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  And I was losing my mind naturally.
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  But honestly, like this, the Delta 8 and all these other
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  things, like those people are worse off than I was smoking
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  crack every day all day. And it's that it's in the cat,
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  it's in that category. Like, it's not this kind of, you
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  know, of course there's all the social kind of acceptability and
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  just the normalcy and lack of education maybe around what this
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  stuff really is. But I am seeing the consequences
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  of using Delta A and the gas station stuff worse than someone
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  who is smoking crack every day, all day.
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  And of course, that's my experience.
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  And I guarantee you a lot of people would, would agree with
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  that. And because the problem is like,
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  I came back, you know, I'm, I'm here, I'm, I think I'm fully
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  with it for the most part, you know, definitely, you know, have
• 17:20
  some, some mental, you know, blank spots occasionally.
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  But, but I'm, I'm mostly with it.
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  And the people that, you know, the guys and clients that I'm
• 17:28
  working with who are using this, you know, gas station stuff that
• 17:31
  some of them aren't coming back. They are kind of, for lack of a
• 17:36
  better clinical term, permafroid, you know, and, and
• 17:40
  that's what scares me. And that's so that's what, and
• 17:42
  when I talk to parents, I'm like, this is a crisis.
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  This is urgent because we don't know when that point of no
• 17:49
  return is going to be. And you may never get your son
• 17:52
  or daughter or husband like really back if we don't do
• 17:56
  something. If they don't, you know, find
• 17:58
  recovery and get treated ASAP. Man, Yeah, well, you heard it.
• 18:05
  Here not to be a fear monger. No, that's, that's true because
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  think about it, you know, if, if you, if a parent has a kid,
• 18:12
  let's say, you know, it's now in 2026 and the kid is I've I've
• 18:18
  smoked, I've been smoking crack every day, all day for five
• 18:22
  months. They would be like, I mean, like
• 18:25
  there's no amount of electricity that could shock them back into
• 18:29
  reality from hearing that. But if they hear the same thing
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  about yeah, I've just been sitting smoking Delta 8 all day
• 18:35
  every day for five months, they'd be like that stuff from
• 18:37
  the gas station. What do you, what is that
• 18:39
  anyway? You know, you know, the the
• 18:40
  reaction is totally different. And that's kind of just, I think
• 18:43
  emblematic for how the the world feels about it anyway.
• 18:46
  It's just, I just can't believe that this thing that's basically
• 18:49
  like weed that sold, you know, at gas stations could do that.
• 18:53
  Yeah. That's.
• 18:55
  Yeah, it's interesting. So I've had a couple of, well,
• 18:57
  maybe more than a couple, but more recent conversation with
• 19:00
  other professionals out in the field talking about this exact
• 19:03
  same topic. And I don't know, it's been
• 19:06
  interesting to hear this kind of like recent what feels like a
• 19:09
  trend of like, you know, we see this all the time.
• 19:11
  It sounds like you do too well, but individuals, individuals
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  coming in, you know, on kind of the detox and stabilization
• 19:17
  piece, struggling with that substance to do psychosis.
• 19:20
  And we see ones that, you know, few days a week maybe and they
• 19:23
  start kind of clearing up. We also see other ones that like
• 19:26
  we're talking more like a month or there's the question that
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  maybe, you know, there was kind of a predisposition and now
• 19:32
  we've triggered something that may not go away.
• 19:35
  But anyways, back to, you know, here in this kind of trend of
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  like, you know, what do you do about this?
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  Because if it's just the cannabis, then you know, they
• 19:43
  should be fine after a few days and we're seeing these people
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  still struggling. I'm not like no, no, no, no, no.
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  I think there is just a huge spectrum there.
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  There are those people like I said that you know, it's a few
• 19:51
  days and they're kind of pulling back out of it and they're fine
• 19:54
  and and others that it is not that case whatsoever.
• 19:57
  I mean, struggling for weeks on end, months on end, you know,
• 20:02
  and maybe even those individuals that that might be the new
• 20:05
  normal for them, unfortunately. I just thought of something that
• 20:10
  irony. Ironic is the right word.
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  But you know, the the 50s movie that I've actually never seen,
• 20:15
  but I know it is called Reefer Madness.
• 20:17
  That was supposed to scare everybody, but it was.
• 20:19
  But really it turned out to be, you know, kind of a boogeyman
• 20:21
  because it wasn't that scary. But it that it's almost like we
• 20:23
  need a real new Reefer Madness like campaign.
• 20:29
  Yeah. Just not that.
• 20:31
  Well, that's right. The the thing and don't reefer
• 20:33
  madness. If you watch it now, you're
• 20:34
  like, damn, that kind of looks fun.
• 20:39
  But the crazy thing, you know, is like in Texas, there's
• 20:43
  lobbies that are like fighting to keep this stuff in the gas
• 20:46
  stations. And of course there's all these,
• 20:48
  you know, people follow the money, you know, it's, you know,
• 20:52
  probably pretty revealing, but it's all, you know, and I don't
• 20:55
  necessarily need to get into it. I I definitely, you know, I
• 20:58
  think it's a product of Texas not having legal THC Jana versus
• 21:02
  that the byproduct is here is the way we get around that and
• 21:05
  the loophole and we're going to, you know, have this synthetic
• 21:09
  stuff made in China shipped over here.
• 21:11
  But there's lobbies that are like fighting to like, this is
• 21:13
  right, this is good. And it's baffling to me, like,
• 21:16
  how people are like, really putting their, you know, names
• 21:19
  behind, you know, substances that are driving people into
• 21:23
  psychosis, like, regularly. It's crazy and all, you know,
• 21:26
  related to that, we had, you know, we had somebody on here
• 21:31
  who was from a treatment center in Baton Rouge and she does a
• 21:35
  lot of policy work on getting this stuff out of gas stations
• 21:39
  and also and more specifically kratom.
• 21:42
  And it's the same thing. It's like this stuff is really
• 21:45
  hurting people and it's legal for now.
• 21:48
  And the lobbying and the dark money behind keeping it in
• 21:50
  there. And we, you know, we posted
• 21:53
  something, you know, a clip of this on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn
• 21:56
  for our podcast, you know, and our new Waters page.
• 21:59
  And I think it was the most comment, the, the most amount of
• 22:03
  comments we've ever gotten on were from this post.
• 22:06
  And it was mostly, I don't know if they were bots or people who
• 22:10
  are just work for these lobbying firms or were just, I mean,
• 22:13
  going after her and us. Like it's so it's, you know,
• 22:17
  therapeutically proven to be great for this and that.
• 22:20
  And it's like, there's some real powers that be, some dark powers
• 22:25
  out there trying to keep this stuff in there.
• 22:27
  And it's. Yeah, you know, they're, they're
• 22:31
  crazy. There's just funny, not funny
• 22:33
  story at all, but just little thing about the kratom and, you
• 22:38
  know, the feel good. There's all these like, you
• 22:40
  know, legitimate brands that they they're like the top
• 22:45
  advertiser for UT basketball and the stadium.
• 22:49
  The the feel good kratom shot advertisements are everywhere.
• 22:53
  It's. At UT.
• 22:55
  At University of Texas, like they are.
• 22:58
  They're like Tops, one of their top sponsors.
• 23:01
  That is sickening. Sick but it.
• 23:05
  Makes sense, I guess from the company's perspective there's.
• 23:07
  Big money, yeah. I mean, that's synthetic heroin.
• 23:09
  I mean, let's be real. Like it's I mean, or herbal,
• 23:12
  whatever you want to say, you know, it's and yeah, the detox
• 23:17
  and from freedom and the feel good stuff is so gnarly, so
• 23:21
  gnarly. Worse than worse than heroin?
• 23:23
  For sure when I was, you know, the recovery, opioid recovery
• 23:27
  and and alcoholic too and recovery.
• 23:28
  But I there's that that last year when I was trying to, you
• 23:32
  know, manage all that before I got sober, somebody told me
• 23:35
  about creative. I'd never heard of it.
• 23:37
  And so I googled it in the first sentence in the Wikipedia entry
• 23:41
  says or did say at least banned in Europe and Thailand.
• 23:47
  Comma. I didn't read another, I didn't
• 23:49
  read another word. I just went and got it based on
• 23:51
  that right. There I did and it.
• 23:56
  Was disgusting and didn't really work and it was but it but
• 23:59
  either way, I, you know, luckily it never became my thing.
• 24:02
  It was a pretty short lived thing.
• 24:03
  But like we see, I mean, right, I mean, as of maybe not right
• 24:06
  this second, but maybe 2 weeks ago it was definitely for
• 24:09
  there's a period of maybe a month, six weeks where alcohol
• 24:12
  with us in terms of our, you know, detox and short term
• 24:16
  residential is always a far and ahead #1 like 80 to 85,
• 24:19
  sometimes 90% of our, of our clients.
• 24:22
  But you know, it kind of the number 2, which is always a
• 24:24
  distant #2 kind of shifts. And it was kratom there for a
• 24:27
  while. You know and.
• 24:29
  Again, it's like people still play tricks with them and their
• 24:34
  minds play tricks on them thinking that it's OK just
• 24:36
  because it didn't go buy it from a drug dealer, you know?
• 24:40
  And you know, I don't, I don't know anybody since the 30's, the
• 24:44
  early 30s who's had to buy alcohol from a drug dealer.
• 24:48
  Yeah, yeah, that that Menshine out in North.
• 24:51
  Carolina. You know, out in the Smoky
• 24:53
  Mountains, that's right. But you know, I feel for those
• 24:57
  guys and you know, the, the folks in recovery like, 'cause
• 25:01
  if I had to go, you know, obviously I could, you know,
• 25:04
  find alcohol at any gas station. But if I kratom or, you know,
• 25:08
  these delta 8 things where my DOC and I, you know, in early
• 25:13
  recovery and I was just going to get a bottle of water and I had
• 25:16
  to grapple with that, You know, every time.
• 25:18
  It's just, it's tough on these, you know, just getting through
• 25:22
  those first couple months and just everywhere you turn, it's
• 25:25
  your drug of choice. And it's like, you know, I got
• 25:28
  to go out of my way. I can find it probably in a
• 25:30
  couple hours if I wanted to, you know, but I got to go out of my
• 25:33
  way to get heroin and crack. But like, you just go to the,
• 25:36
  you know, stop and go and there you go.
• 25:41
  Especially when all the messaging is that, you know,
• 25:43
  it's fine for you and it's, you know, it suits your anxiety and
• 25:46
  like, you know, it makes you feel good and all this stuff.
• 25:48
  And which is unfortunate. And I think, I mean, we've had
• 25:50
  probably the vast majority of individuals that have come in
• 25:53
  that we've had to help, you know, separate their self from
• 25:56
  those substances, especially the Kava stuff, the Kava and the
• 26:02
  kratom Kava and the kratom. I mean, like that's the branding
• 26:05
  or someone told them like, hey, you know, this is not bad for
• 26:08
  you. This is fine.
• 26:08
  It helps you feel good. It's not addictive and it's just
• 26:11
  like you were sold a bill of goods.
• 26:12
  Unfortunately, you know you didn't know what you were
• 26:14
  getting yourself into a lot of the times.
• 26:16
  And exactly. And people can still claim
• 26:19
  they're I mean, not sober, but yeah, but I'm on this feel free.
• 26:23
  I need to go to detox for taking feel free.
• 26:26
  But I'm picking up my 4 year chip at an A a meeting tomorrow
• 26:29
  or when I get out. I mean, I'm I'm that's not a I'm
• 26:32
  serious. I've seen this.
• 26:34
  This is, it's, it's, it's just somehow it was just not clicking
• 26:38
  with, with people. This is bad news, you know.
• 26:41
  Well, you know, it all comes back to like, like, what is the
• 26:45
  why do I use the way that I use? And it's because I don't like
• 26:48
  how I feel. Like I, how I feel when I wake
• 26:51
  up is unacceptable to me. And so I need something to alter
• 26:55
  my chemistry as soon as possible.
• 26:58
  And, you know, obviously that, you know, funnels down to like,
• 27:02
  well, what is it about how you feel when you're sober that's
• 27:07
  just so intolerable? Like that's, that's what this,
• 27:11
  all this stuff we do and, and recovery and you know, the
• 27:14
  treatment programs, like we, we have to treat that stuff.
• 27:18
  And as you've experienced this, I've experienced like, thank
• 27:22
  God, like I've just, it's, there's no upside for me, you
• 27:27
  know, anymore. Like, I like how I feel and I
• 27:29
  have hard days and bad shit happens, you know, but like the
• 27:34
  position of neutrality that we get put in where it's not a
• 27:39
  struggle because at my core, I've, you know, healed, you
• 27:44
  know, most of my wounds, I think.
• 27:46
  And I have purpose and I, I like how I feel even when bad stuff's
• 27:50
  going on, like I still like it's, it's preferable to see the
• 27:54
  alternative. And so, so anyways, I think that
• 27:57
  like you know, this symptom treatment, you know that all
• 28:01
  these products promote, right? It's like it's not treating
• 28:04
  anything. Right.
• 28:05
  Right, no, you're exactly right. And you know, I mean waking up,
• 28:09
  not not having that feeling of being of waking up every day
• 28:12
  sentenced to another day of life.
• 28:14
  You know, I'm I'm just revisit a story where that's mentioned.
• 28:18
  And I mean, you know, fortunately for me, I when I was
• 28:23
  when I got sober, I was never I never had any temptation for the
• 28:26
  THC. And I know I don't even think
• 28:28
  that I've never heard of the others that the cannabinoid
• 28:31
  stuff at that point. But but it to your point,
• 28:36
  though, about waking up and needing to feel different
• 28:38
  immediately in terms of the of we like I was never really my
• 28:44
  thing. I mean, I'd smoked weed as much
• 28:46
  as more than most humans have ever lived, of course, but still
• 28:49
  was never my thing. But let's say, you know, I would
• 28:51
  wake up and, and I hadn't put any other substances in my body
• 28:55
  yet that day, that morning, usually that afternoon when I
• 28:58
  would wake up by the end, especially, and there was some
• 29:01
  weed at my house sitting on the coffee table in the for whatever
• 29:05
  reason, I had it wake up. And I would look at that and I
• 29:08
  would say, you know what, there's a 95% chance that's
• 29:12
  going to make me paranoid. But I would still smoke it
• 29:16
  because I would rather be paranoid and miserable than just
• 29:20
  like you said, like in the way I felt just being me, like I
• 29:23
  couldn't do it. I could, I did not.
• 29:25
  I would rather be put something in my body that I knew was going
• 29:28
  to make me honestly feel worse because it was different.
• 29:31
  I just had to feel different. Or at least I thought I did.
• 29:34
  And that's right. I mean, that's, that's what we
• 29:35
  want in the position of neutrality.
• 29:36
  We're neither cocky nor we afraid.
• 29:38
  We just, we just, it's just, we're that just there, you know?
• 29:41
  And that's what that yeah. I mean, I, I the disconnect.
• 29:46
  I'm glad that I for now today feel this way.
• 29:51
  But yeah, getting people to see they don't need something.
• 29:54
  They don't need to feel free or be high because we can't be.
• 29:59
  We can't feel free and or be high and be sober at the same
• 30:02
  time. That's what I've learned.
• 30:05
  No, you can't have your cake and eat at tune this thing I tried.
• 30:08
  I remember I was yeah, I was doing Oxycontin at this time,
• 30:11
  but I had a sponsor and I did a four step when I was using
• 30:16
  opiates and it didn't it didn't land, you know.
• 30:19
  Yeah, just one. Yeah, I can believe that.
• 30:22
  Yeah. It just didn't clear me up.
• 30:25
  But yeah, I mean, and you're spot on.
• 30:26
  I mean, I, you know, I think we towards the late stage
• 30:31
  addiction, you know, every day it's the jumping off place.
• 30:34
  Like I hate this, but I can't not do this right.
• 30:39
  I just, you know, towards the end for me for sure, it was just
• 30:42
  every day was kind of the worst day of my life and I didn't want
• 30:46
  to do it and crying on the way to the drug dealer And but I was
• 30:50
  still going, you know, and just the relief when the when I the
• 30:56
  gig was up finally. And, you know, the catch is, of
• 31:01
  course with healing and recovery is we can't manifest it just by
• 31:06
  thinking our way into it. We can't.
• 31:10
  Yeah, it's you don't just like a a switch.
• 31:12
  It takes a little work, but good board.
• 31:15
  You know, the work that we put in to stay high as frequently as
• 31:19
  we did. I mean, it's a fraction of that
• 31:21
  after, that's for sure. And I always joke with people
• 31:25
  who are resistant. It's like, alright, so like
• 31:28
  we're talking like 3 to 5 hours a week and you can like have a
• 31:32
  life beyond your wildest imagination.
• 31:35
  Like do you think, do you think that's a decent pay off?
• 31:38
  You know, the ROI there is, is pretty good, you know, and
• 31:42
  that's kind of what it is. It's like 3 to 5 hours a week.
• 31:46
  That's it. And then freedom, sunlight,
• 31:48
  spirit, all that stuff for five hours a week.
• 31:50
  Like, I'll take that for sure. Exactly.
• 31:53
  I think that what you just said is what people, whether they
• 31:56
  want to kind of act on it, but the people that can relate to
• 31:59
  the most is how much time we spent, you know, drinking and
• 32:02
  using and recovering from the night before, waiting on the
• 32:05
  guy, waiting on the liquor store, sleeping, all that
• 32:08
  compared to this, you know, sort of little piece of each day just
• 32:12
  to do this stuff that can help us achieve a life beyond our
• 32:16
  wildest dreams. You're exactly right.
• 32:19
  But yeah, And it's like the more we do for I, the more I do for
• 32:22
  my recovery, the more time I have for everything else.
• 32:25
  I don't know how it works, but it's just one of those paradoxes
• 32:27
  of recovery that I don't need to know why, but it just seems to
• 32:30
  be the case. It's an amazing thing there.
• 32:32
  You go. I want to ask you quickly,
• 32:35
  though. So when we first met, we talked
• 32:38
  about a lot of music stuff We won't get into being critics
• 32:41
  here on the podcast. Although I'd like to.
• 32:43
  But I do want to just, you know, something that when I was
• 32:48
  sitting in treatment, I remember, you know, I was like
• 32:51
  just, you know, I'd had a spiritual experience and I was
• 32:53
  starting to, you know, continue to have the awakening of the
• 32:57
  educational variety, you know, and feeling good, good, good.
• 33:00
  And then, like, I can't wait to be sober and like, live a sober
• 33:03
  life and of course, get everybody else sober.
• 33:06
  But then I had a kind of like brief moment of of dread, you
• 33:10
  know, wait a minute, How am I going to go to a party, go to a
• 33:14
  wedding, go to a football game, go to a comedy show, go on a
• 33:17
  date, go to New York, New Orleans, Europe, go see fish, go
• 33:21
  do like, how am I going to do all that?
• 33:23
  And then I was like, wait a minute, how did I do that
• 33:25
  before? Because it was everything I did
• 33:26
  was so contingent on all the drugs and setting up and all
• 33:29
  that stuff. So luckily that was a very short
• 33:31
  lived, you know, little panic. But you know, we do talk about,
• 33:35
  you know, music was one of the first things we talked about and
• 33:37
  you guys see a lot of music. What I mean tell us from your
• 33:39
  experience about like those getting into doing the the stuff
• 33:43
  you want to do sober. Yeah, I mean, and I, you know, I
• 33:46
  was just thinking, yeah, we can do anything a free man can do,
• 33:51
  you know, and, and I obviously, you know, the the holes that we
• 33:53
  poke and the argument of like, how am I going to do that?
• 33:56
  It's like I wasn't doing that stuff anyway.
• 33:58
  It's hard, You know, I wanted to.
• 34:00
  And if I was, it was like a crisis every like fun thing that
• 34:05
  I did. It was like, you know, the, the
• 34:07
  night ended with some crisis so, so quickly.
• 34:10
  I was like, well, it really couldn't be any worse and better
• 34:14
  than that, you know, And but you know, I, so, you know, Tish, you
• 34:19
  mentioned and that's, that's my band for sure.
• 34:23
  And it's, you know, the cult following where you can't see
• 34:26
  enough shows, right? And so I accepted one show I've
• 34:29
  seen, you know, probably it's like 70s and the 70s like shows
• 34:34
  in the last 14 years. So obviously, and and you know,
• 34:42
  that's a recovery hostile environment for sure.
• 34:44
  There's a little pockets of us, you know, so the guys in the
• 34:48
  fellowship and war frats and all that, but like it's, you know,
• 34:51
  we're in the vast minority and and not only this in an
• 34:56
  incredible time, but like the, you know, community that exists
• 35:00
  in that space. And I think we chased that music
• 35:02
  because of the, it's experientially kind of it's
• 35:07
  spiritual. I think, you know, there's
• 35:08
  something there that we and so like my perspective on like,
• 35:11
  what am I, why am I going to this show or doing whatever it
• 35:16
  is I want to do? Like I think my motives are
• 35:19
  good. And and so I think that's huge
• 35:22
  too. But yeah, I mean, what's the
• 35:25
  point of being sober if life's not, like significantly better?
• 35:29
  Like, like, because ultimately if it's not, then we're not
• 35:32
  going to keep doing what we have to do to stay sober, right?
• 35:35
  I mean, at the end of the day, like my life has to continually
• 35:39
  be like full of juice. Like that's a word I use a lot.
• 35:44
  It's like, where am I getting my juice, you know?
• 35:46
  And because if I'm, you know, feeling empty and just life is
• 35:51
  dull and whatever, like, what's the point?
• 35:54
  Like I would just go back to getting high.
• 35:56
  And so that's, that's the thing about, you know, especially
• 36:00
  being young, but any age of like I, you know, I need to
• 36:04
  continually put myself in position to have experiences
• 36:07
  that give me juice. And, and then there's no looking
• 36:11
  back, you know, at that point because life has just taken off
• 36:14
  and it's so full and exciting and, and even the, the normal
• 36:18
  weeks, you know, where it's just the routine, like there's
• 36:22
  comfort and, and peace in that. And, and we appreciate, we grow
• 36:25
  to appreciate that too. That's important also.
• 36:27
  But but yeah, I think the, the greatest thing about this path
• 36:31
  is that we can do whatever we want to do when we want to do
• 36:34
  it. And I don't have to worry about
• 36:35
  getting high. I love it.
• 36:37
  Yeah. And I mean, like you just said,
• 36:39
  we do anything a free man can do.
• 36:41
  And you know, it's just the key is being spiritually fit so we
• 36:44
  can enjoy that stuff and not be like go to a recovery hostile
• 36:48
  environment and feel, you know, like we're being attacked.
• 36:51
  I'd rather we're safe and protected in in a position of
• 36:53
  neutrality. Well, this has been really good,
• 36:58
  man. Yeah, it's great.
• 37:00
  Thank you. Thank you.
• 37:01
  So much good conversations. Yeah, Yeah, man.
• 37:04
  Well, we always ask everybody just how do they, how do our
• 37:08
  listeners and viewers in our audience in general find you?
• 37:12
  Yeah. So you know the website
• 37:14
  croswellinterventions.com, I don't know if you wanted my
• 37:18
  phone number out here, but. I'm happy to do that.
• 37:21
  Too. Yeah, 830-992-5836 is my phone
• 37:26
  number, so reach out and you know, social media, Croswell
• 37:29
  interventions and yeah, and that's how you get in touch.
• 37:33
  Awesome. Love it man.
• 37:35
  Thank you so much. Really thank you.
• 37:37
  It's great. Appreciate you guys love talking
• 37:40
  with you all and seeing you guys and and we look forward to
• 37:43
  getting on a golf course or being rail riding at at a show
• 37:47
  here in your. Yeah, I hear you.
• 37:49
  All right, man. I'll see you soon.
• 37:51
  Thank you so much. OK.
• 37:52
  Take care guys. Thanks.
• 37:53
  If you liked what you heard today or just want to know more,
• 37:56
  give us a call on 9196708119 or visit us at
• 38:01
  newwatersrecovery.com. Thank you.