Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / Almost Famous: A Deeper Understanding

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Almost Famous: A Deeper Understanding · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: This is the Benn and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast
0:03
Speaker 1: with i R Radio. Welcome to another almost famous podcast. Uh.
0:10
Speaker 1: This one is unique and it's special, and I think
0:13
Speaker 1: it's timely. You know obviously we we usually do our
0:19
Speaker 1: podcasts on Monday's. Uh the release like late Monday night
0:23
Speaker 1: early Tuesday morning. Uh. This you know, this week's podcast
0:27
Speaker 1: had a response that we felt as a team that
0:31
Speaker 1: we should do a special episode for. It's probably not
0:35
Speaker 1: an episode that you are expecting. Uh, this will look
0:39
Speaker 1: different than most Almost Famous episodes, but I wanted to start,
0:45
Speaker 1: uh just speaking to all of you as listeners. I
0:47
Speaker 1: know there are some very sensitive subjects going around Bachelor
0:51
Speaker 1: Nation right now. As we mentioned the last podcast, they're
0:54
Speaker 1: not fun to talk about. It is not why we
0:57
Speaker 1: do this podcast. It is not why I sit down,
1:00
Speaker 1: own and work through this podcast. It is not the
1:05
Speaker 1: fun moments, and it's not things we like to talk about.
1:09
Speaker 1: But this is a podcast about what is happening in
1:12
Speaker 1: Bachelor Nation. We are trying our best to cover those
1:18
Speaker 1: using the information that we know and sharing that with
1:21
Speaker 1: the listeners because that's what we've committed to. We as
1:26
Speaker 1: hosts don't have a script. There's no practice for this,
1:30
Speaker 1: and we say things in the moment that can be misconstrued,
1:35
Speaker 1: and our communication can sometimes fail, and mistakes happen. Ah,
1:42
Speaker 1: I I know they happen. They happen, happen often with me,
1:47
Speaker 1: and I'm sure if you're a listener you also can
1:50
Speaker 1: relate with You've said things in the moment that you
1:53
Speaker 1: didn't really mean, and somehow they got communicating in a
1:57
Speaker 1: way that you never intended them to be. Communication aided
2:00
Speaker 1: and they sat with whoever you were talking to in
2:02
Speaker 1: a way that maybe was um offensive and you had
2:09
Speaker 1: to recommunicate, re explain yourself. And that's what I have
2:14
Speaker 1: to do now. I know. On the last podcast, I
2:17
Speaker 1: made the comment that love makes you do crazy things
2:22
Speaker 1: that at no level, and I want to reinforce this
2:25
Speaker 1: was justifying any actions. It was never my intention and
2:30
Speaker 1: it's never my hope and it's not my feelings to
2:33
Speaker 1: justify any actions that have happened within Bachelor Nation. That
2:38
Speaker 1: comment was irresponsible at best. It was something that I
2:45
Speaker 1: said in the moment that I would have loved to
2:49
Speaker 1: follow up on and say, yeah, that's not what I meant.
2:52
Speaker 1: I don't think true, healthy, good love makes you do
2:55
Speaker 1: crazy things I don't want to justify anybody's actions here.
3:01
Speaker 1: There is no justification for it. But I do want
3:05
Speaker 1: to make it clear that nothing I said was in
3:09
Speaker 1: support of any actions that are damaging to any other human.
3:13
Speaker 1: What I want to do is say things that help
3:15
Speaker 1: and hurt, and we want to walk this line on
3:18
Speaker 1: sensitive subjects. To do that, it's not easy and I'm
3:22
Speaker 1: not great at it. I try really hard, and I'm
3:26
Speaker 1: gonna fail. And if you're listening to this podcast for
3:30
Speaker 1: the last how many years we've been doing it, you
3:32
Speaker 1: know I failed. But I also hope you can see
3:36
Speaker 1: that we're trying. This is not fun for us to
3:39
Speaker 1: sit down and make anybody's life worse. It's not to
3:42
Speaker 1: hope for this. It doesn't do anything for Ashley or I.
3:45
Speaker 1: Our hope is that we sit down, we discuss a
3:48
Speaker 1: show that we've experienced and that you all watch and
3:51
Speaker 1: you all enjoy, and at the end of it, we
3:55
Speaker 1: wash our hands clean and we move on with the week.
3:58
Speaker 1: And this week it's heavy on my chest because I
4:00
Speaker 1: know there was words said that have sat with you
4:02
Speaker 1: all and that have offended you all, and for that,
4:04
Speaker 1: I am sorry. It was not my intent. There is
4:06
Speaker 1: no justification within those words, they are irresponsible words. I
4:12
Speaker 1: think at best, I was trying to explain the excuses
4:17
Speaker 1: that have been given to why things happened within Bachelor Nation.
4:22
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry, I'm not justifying any actions. I don't
4:27
Speaker 1: want anybody to hurt worse. I don't want anybody to
4:30
Speaker 1: feel like I am on the side of anybody but
4:34
Speaker 1: somebody hurting deeply, which is a victim. So it is
4:39
Speaker 1: important for me to start this podcast out and say that,
4:44
Speaker 1: going off of what Ben said, words are powerful, and
4:48
Speaker 1: this week was a lesson for us that we have
4:51
Speaker 1: to be careful, way more careful with our words. When
4:54
Speaker 1: Ben said love makes you crazy, I knew he meant
4:58
Speaker 1: heartbreak and get so dark for some people that it
5:01
Speaker 1: drives a person to a point where their actions are dangerous,
5:06
Speaker 1: fear inducing, and mental help is necessary. What love doesn't
5:11
Speaker 1: do is excuse inexcusable behavior. That's something that we did
5:16
Speaker 1: fail to say. Our intentions were never to excuse disgusting
5:21
Speaker 1: behavior by saying such things as love makes you crazy.
5:25
Speaker 1: And while others aren't able to read our heart and
5:29
Speaker 1: our minds intention, that's the purpose of well chosen words,
5:34
Speaker 1: and as a podcast host, well, Um, chosen chosen good
5:39
Speaker 1: chosen words are kind of important, UM, and this has
5:43
Speaker 1: been a reminder of that this week. Today we want
5:46
Speaker 1: to learn how to discuss sensitive subjects better. We decided
5:49
Speaker 1: to do this podcast that we can learn, alongside any
5:52
Speaker 1: of you listening, how to better talk about things like this,
5:56
Speaker 1: so that we can ensure that we're helping and not hurting.
5:59
Speaker 1: The money that Ben and I make from today's episode
6:02
Speaker 1: of The Almost This podcast will be donated to RAIN.
6:04
Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit helping victims of sexual assault. And our
6:08
Speaker 1: first guest today is Dr Hillary Golscher. She's a licensed
6:12
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist with a private practice in Beverly Hills and
6:15
Speaker 1: she specializes in the treatment of couples and relationships, depression, anxiety,
6:20
Speaker 1: and trauma. Hey, Dr Gulscher, how are you doing good? Ashley?
6:33
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. How do you bend to thank
6:37
Speaker 1: you for being here? So just our listeners are out there? Um,
6:41
Speaker 1: can you give a little background about why you're here
6:44
Speaker 1: right now? Like what makes you equipped to speak with us? Sure?
6:48
Speaker 1: I'm a clinical psychologist. I practice in Beverly Hills and
6:52
Speaker 1: one of my areas of specialty is around domestic violence
6:56
Speaker 1: and it sounds like there's been a lot of really
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Speaker 1: important discussions and the whole range of feelings about the
7:04
Speaker 1: topics you've discussed over the last podcasts, and I feel
7:08
Speaker 1: like I'm in a really good position to sort of
7:10
Speaker 1: address concerns confusion, upset and this super important topic. You know,
7:18
Speaker 1: can we start there then? Um? We this podcast is
7:23
Speaker 1: not We just talked about it, but it's just not
7:25
Speaker 1: fun to talk about those like the subjects that are
7:28
Speaker 1: are heavy and burden full and they're just sensitive. They're
7:31
Speaker 1: sensitive topics. Um. There's obviously things that I said on
7:36
Speaker 1: the podcast. Before I made the comment, I said love
7:39
Speaker 1: makes you do crazy things. And I've already spoken to
7:42
Speaker 1: the fact that I didn't mean it in any really
7:46
Speaker 1: with anything. It was an irresponsible thing for me to
7:49
Speaker 1: say because I had no weight behind it. It had
7:51
Speaker 1: no intention behind it. It was just the thing I said. Uh.
7:55
Speaker 1: And I now recognize based on a few people who
7:58
Speaker 1: have been awesome to me, who um our victims or
8:03
Speaker 1: they know somebody close to the victims, that said, hey,
8:05
Speaker 1: this is why this was offensive. It was offensive because
8:07
Speaker 1: it felt like you were justifying that love, uh gives
8:12
Speaker 1: you the the excuse to do things that are harmful
8:16
Speaker 1: or hurtful, and I recognized that now that was that
8:19
Speaker 1: that's not that was not at all what I wanted.
8:21
Speaker 1: But I would love if you could spend a few
8:22
Speaker 1: moments and talk about, you know, when we do speak openly,
8:27
Speaker 1: like how how we navigate these sensitive subjects so that
8:31
Speaker 1: we aren't harmful in our speech, especially when we're just
8:36
Speaker 1: we're you know, when they're just topics that come up
8:39
Speaker 1: and we have to speak off of off the cuff. Yeah. Yeah,
8:43
Speaker 1: it's such a complex question and the right one to ask.
8:46
Speaker 1: I mean it we have, of course, want to address
8:50
Speaker 1: these topics with a lot of sensitivity and with the
8:52
Speaker 1: goal of listening, right, I mean, whenever we're talking about
8:55
Speaker 1: something where people have been harmed emotionally or physically want
9:00
Speaker 1: to be listening. We want to ask a lot of questions.
9:02
Speaker 1: We want to understand what their experiences before we offer
9:05
Speaker 1: our perspective or opinion. I think that's a really important
9:09
Speaker 1: thing for all of us to try to strive towards. However,
9:13
Speaker 1: we all in conversation with our friends and family and
9:17
Speaker 1: loved ones, and conversations in podcasts or um in groups
9:21
Speaker 1: of friends get animated um and involved the conversations and
9:26
Speaker 1: and say things that we might not think through before him.
9:30
Speaker 1: So to me, this is a beautiful teaching moment um
9:34
Speaker 1: and and then and it might not be fun to
9:36
Speaker 1: be at the center of it um for you, but
9:39
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful teaching moment. We're all human, we all
9:43
Speaker 1: say things at moments that we don't think about or
9:46
Speaker 1: come to learn impact someone in a way that we
9:48
Speaker 1: never intended. So this is a moment to sort of
9:51
Speaker 1: really step back for you, for all of your listeners
9:53
Speaker 1: that when you're talking about things like this like harassment,
9:57
Speaker 1: domestic violence and that arena of pain that people go through,
10:02
Speaker 1: that we want to be really, really careful about the
10:04
Speaker 1: words that we choose. We want to ask a lot
10:06
Speaker 1: of questions, we want to understand what people are going through,
10:10
Speaker 1: and we want to bring a lot of sensitivity to
10:12
Speaker 1: the topic. And part of it is that there's just
10:14
Speaker 1: a lack of discussion and education around this issue. This
10:18
Speaker 1: isn't something people talk about in a lot of different
10:21
Speaker 1: circles often, and so part of my hope what we're
10:24
Speaker 1: doing here today is increasing our ability to have these
10:27
Speaker 1: kind of conversations, not just shy away from them, but
10:30
Speaker 1: how do we have them productively and respectfully. So some
10:36
Speaker 1: of our feedback from Monday's episode was people telling us
10:40
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be discussing matters like this, like this
10:43
Speaker 1: is not the point of our podcast, And part of
10:46
Speaker 1: me was like, oh, maybe, and then the other part
10:49
Speaker 1: of me thought, well, don't we need to talk about
10:53
Speaker 1: this in order to prevent it from happening to more people?
10:58
Speaker 1: And I guess my question is, and it comes to
11:00
Speaker 1: high profile UH cases like this, do we let them
11:07
Speaker 1: be dealt with as privately as possible or do we
11:11
Speaker 1: discuss it like we we are today. I think it's
11:14
Speaker 1: a fine line. I think we have to be really
11:16
Speaker 1: careful about delving into the details of anyone's issues around
11:21
Speaker 1: domestic violence or harassment stalking. If we don't have all
11:26
Speaker 1: the information at hand, whether it's a high profile case
11:29
Speaker 1: or um something in our personal circles, I think we
11:32
Speaker 1: have to be really careful about it because if we
11:34
Speaker 1: don't have all the information, there's a lot of hypothesis
11:37
Speaker 1: and speculation, and that can be hurtful or harmful to people. However,
11:42
Speaker 1: I think we can have a really important macro discussion
11:45
Speaker 1: about the issue of domestic violence and the issue of
11:48
Speaker 1: stalking and harassment and even um what happens to people
11:52
Speaker 1: on both sides of that equation, right, Like, what is
11:55
Speaker 1: it like to be a victim of stalking and harassment
11:58
Speaker 1: and domestic violence? What is it due to someone psychologically?
12:01
Speaker 1: What does it take to speak out um publicly or
12:05
Speaker 1: to seek legal assistant and assistance? And if you're on
12:09
Speaker 1: the other end of it and have perpetrated um um
12:12
Speaker 1: these type of wounds against someone, how does that come
12:16
Speaker 1: to pass and how does someone like that begin to heal?
12:18
Speaker 1: I think those are all really important discussions to have,
12:21
Speaker 1: both on a micro and a macro level. So I
12:24
Speaker 1: think I think it's possible for both to happen. It
12:27
Speaker 1: can coexist, that you can talk about this issue, about
12:30
Speaker 1: these two folks from this nation of people that you
12:33
Speaker 1: talk about a lot, without um delving so deep into areas,
12:38
Speaker 1: uh that that with which you aren't familiar. So I
12:41
Speaker 1: think I think both can be accomplished. Well, let's start
12:45
Speaker 1: there then, UM, Because obviously the last few days of
12:49
Speaker 1: just and this is not about me at any level,
12:51
Speaker 1: but they've been really hard to process because I know
12:56
Speaker 1: how I feel and I and I also know that
12:58
Speaker 1: how I actually feels and I know we do want
13:00
Speaker 1: to help and not hurt, and that there's things we
13:01
Speaker 1: say sometimes that definitely hurt, and I guess um as
13:06
Speaker 1: we do. Then begin to speak up or let's move
13:10
Speaker 1: it to this example. Then say we have a friend
13:12
Speaker 1: who is on both sides of this situation. What can
13:17
Speaker 1: we do as friends, UH to be helpful to them
13:21
Speaker 1: in situations like this? And let's start with speaking to
13:24
Speaker 1: the victim. If there is somebody that has been hurt
13:27
Speaker 1: and pain, how do we as humans communicate with them
13:31
Speaker 1: to allow them to feel safe into at least to
13:36
Speaker 1: however they want to open up to us. Yes, such
13:40
Speaker 1: an important question and I sort of alluded to it before,
13:42
Speaker 1: but really important to repeat. Being a listener, asking a
13:46
Speaker 1: lot of questions, slowing down your case and your energy,
13:52
Speaker 1: and just deeply sinking into meeting the person where they're
13:56
Speaker 1: at and hearing their story. Support and empathy and compassion
13:59
Speaker 1: is key because most people who are in situations where
14:03
Speaker 1: they are victims domestic violence or stalking harassment feel a
14:06
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of anxiety and fear and helplessness and a
14:10
Speaker 1: sense of feeling sort of out of control. And there's
14:12
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings around talking about it publicly, um,
14:16
Speaker 1: not just publiclylike in the format where you all are
14:18
Speaker 1: dealing with, but just publicly to to friends and family.
14:21
Speaker 1: It can feel um. One can feel shame, embarrassment, fear
14:26
Speaker 1: of retaliation from the person whom they are accusing. And
14:31
Speaker 1: there's so there's such a myriad of feelings that someone
14:33
Speaker 1: in that position is going to experience. So sitting with
14:37
Speaker 1: them and being able to absorb those feelings, listen and
14:40
Speaker 1: ask questions and offer empathy and compassion is key. Is
14:44
Speaker 1: a requirement, you know, for that person to be able
14:47
Speaker 1: to sit with you and feel hurt and safe. And
14:51
Speaker 1: I think if you only do one thing, it's that
14:54
Speaker 1: And then the second is trying to figure out what
14:58
Speaker 1: level of um of concern or danger that this person
15:04
Speaker 1: is experiencing and our external resources required, And so that
15:09
Speaker 1: mean reaching out to a therapist, Does that mean reaching
15:12
Speaker 1: out to authorities, Does that mean reaching out to parents
15:16
Speaker 1: or family, etcetera. Making sure that you're helping that person
15:19
Speaker 1: mobilized resources. What do you do if you don't have
15:25
Speaker 1: proof that there's something danger is going on, but you
15:29
Speaker 1: have a sense that your friend in a relationship is
15:33
Speaker 1: going through something very serious, how do you approach that
15:36
Speaker 1: if they don't bring it up to you, do do
15:38
Speaker 1: you at all approach it? Such a good question. My
15:41
Speaker 1: opinion is that you do approach it, but you approach
15:44
Speaker 1: it in a way that is open, that is flexible,
15:48
Speaker 1: and that is without pressure, so that you're going to
15:51
Speaker 1: someone and saying a version of my my intuition is
15:55
Speaker 1: saying that something's happening here and I just want to
15:57
Speaker 1: check in with you. Is there any way in which
15:59
Speaker 1: you're feeling not safe physically, emotionally and if the person
16:03
Speaker 1: is quickly defensive or I'm dismissive, and you still have
16:07
Speaker 1: that suspicion, making sure that you create an open door,
16:12
Speaker 1: that you create an open space. Okay, I hear you.
16:14
Speaker 1: I just want to let you know I'm no matter what,
16:16
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I support the relationship, something happens,
16:19
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I'm always a resource for you
16:21
Speaker 1: and making sure that you aren't um uh, pushing your
16:25
Speaker 1: opinion or your agenda or your fears too close to
16:29
Speaker 1: that person so that they shut down and don't see
16:31
Speaker 1: you as as a safe haven to go to it
16:33
Speaker 1: some other time. I mean, if you think someone is
16:36
Speaker 1: in imminent danger, then you're gonna want to go to UM,
16:40
Speaker 1: the authorities or something UM of course, But in the
16:43
Speaker 1: scenario that you describe where you have an inkling and
16:45
Speaker 1: aren't sure, in my opinion, the key is keeping the
16:48
Speaker 1: door open so that that person can come to you
16:51
Speaker 1: if something happens and they need help. I always struggle,
16:54
Speaker 1: UM before we move into then something that I don't
16:58
Speaker 1: think it's talked about a lot um. One thing you've
17:01
Speaker 1: hinted at is talking about what we do if there
17:03
Speaker 1: is somebody on the harassing or stalking end of things,
17:07
Speaker 1: and how we deal with that. But before we get there,
17:10
Speaker 1: one scenario I always struggle with is you know, when
17:13
Speaker 1: when I know there's something traumatic or really difficult going
17:17
Speaker 1: on in somebody's life that is a friend of mine
17:19
Speaker 1: that I have communication with, often, I never know if
17:23
Speaker 1: I should be the one reaching out. I never know
17:25
Speaker 1: if And and maybe this could be the transition then
17:29
Speaker 1: into talking about both sides because I don't know my
17:33
Speaker 1: role in this, because I know how I feel, I
17:35
Speaker 1: know what what I stand for, but yet there's still
17:39
Speaker 1: humans at play here, and and those humans still matter
17:43
Speaker 1: uh to to you as a friend or to what
17:46
Speaker 1: you know? So do you reach out. Do you just
17:48
Speaker 1: wait till they reach out? How do you deal with that?
17:52
Speaker 1: You know, I work a lot with people, UM, who
17:54
Speaker 1: are dealing with grief, who have lost Lauren's sisters, brothers, children, etcetera,
18:00
Speaker 1: And this question comes up a lot. Should I reach
18:03
Speaker 1: out to my friend who lost a daughter? UM, I'm
18:06
Speaker 1: so anxious about the idea of having that conversation, of
18:09
Speaker 1: triggering something with them, of reaching out that they haven't
18:12
Speaker 1: reached out to me, etcetera. And almost always, when you
18:16
Speaker 1: speak to the person dealing with the grief, they always
18:19
Speaker 1: want welcome being reached out, to, being told that they're
18:24
Speaker 1: being thought of, letting them know that there's someone there
18:27
Speaker 1: for them should they need it, and are never additionally
18:31
Speaker 1: traumatized by someone bringing up the topic, so to speak.
18:36
Speaker 1: So all of this to say that through that in
18:39
Speaker 1: particular and through my work as a clinician, the answer
18:42
Speaker 1: is is sort of an unabashedly yes that I don't
18:45
Speaker 1: think you can ever lose to to go to a
18:47
Speaker 1: loved one or a friend and say I'm thinking of you,
18:50
Speaker 1: I'm here. And if this isn't the right time for you,
18:54
Speaker 1: if it isn't something you want to talk about, absolutely
18:57
Speaker 1: respect that, but I want to let you know that
18:58
Speaker 1: I'm here and I'm a resource for you of him
19:00
Speaker 1: when you're ready. I think it's a really important thing,
19:02
Speaker 1: and it can be a really uncomfortable thing, because to
19:05
Speaker 1: move into the space of someone suffering, even via text
19:09
Speaker 1: or via phone call or a drop live visit, is
19:12
Speaker 1: is vulnerable. Is anxiety provoking is difficult. It makes us
19:16
Speaker 1: feel awkward, It makes us feel difficult when we're reaching out.
19:19
Speaker 1: But we have to kind of reach out outside of
19:23
Speaker 1: ourselves and be in that uncomfortable space in the service
19:27
Speaker 1: of letting someone know we're thinking of them. It's it's
19:30
Speaker 1: sort of I mean, it's sort of like humanity. What
19:32
Speaker 1: brings us together is that kind of connection and letting
19:34
Speaker 1: people know that, like I'm thinking of you when things
19:36
Speaker 1: are hard. You said a word there that uh you know,
19:41
Speaker 1: it's a good I don't know if it's something I've
19:43
Speaker 1: learned already in the last uh you know, a couple
19:46
Speaker 1: of minutes of us talking, but the triggering and being
19:50
Speaker 1: more careful of the language used to and because I
19:54
Speaker 1: think personally I struggle with trying to fill the gap
19:57
Speaker 1: in those conversations, like not letting silence sit it and
20:00
Speaker 1: just trying to say something to fill the gap, to
20:03
Speaker 1: try to make it feel better. And something that as
20:06
Speaker 1: you're talking that's reminded me is sometimes I can't fill
20:09
Speaker 1: that gap in when I do, there's actually something there
20:11
Speaker 1: that I would say that is triggering and hurtful and harmful.
20:15
Speaker 1: And allowing those silence, those moments of silence to be
20:18
Speaker 1: there and then asking those questions to learn and to
20:20
Speaker 1: not assume are just that's I don't know, that's something
20:24
Speaker 1: I'm taking out of this. And as I sit here
20:25
Speaker 1: here and you talk, I'm saying, yes, this is exactly
20:28
Speaker 1: why we wanted to do this, so that hopefully I
20:32
Speaker 1: can learn and leave this and people listening and actually
20:34
Speaker 1: can leave this and become a better friend or a
20:37
Speaker 1: better partner or whatever that looks like. Um. One thing
20:41
Speaker 1: that's a difficult subject that that I don't even know
20:43
Speaker 1: how to broach or even asking too, is what do
20:46
Speaker 1: you do for somebody that is on the other side?
20:48
Speaker 1: What is our role there as humans? And how do
20:51
Speaker 1: we navigate that appropriately without causing more harm? Yeah, it's
20:58
Speaker 1: it's a really difficult question and there's only imperfect answers.
21:03
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so messy and difficult. If someone that
21:06
Speaker 1: we love engages in behavior that is wrong. I mean,
21:09
Speaker 1: it's really painful for everyone involved. So I think it's
21:11
Speaker 1: just really important to acknowledge that upfront that no matter
21:14
Speaker 1: what we do, it's going to be a little messy,
21:17
Speaker 1: because that's a really really messy scenario someone we loved,
21:20
Speaker 1: it's something that is wrong or hurt another person. You know,
21:24
Speaker 1: there's not much we can do that's going to um
21:27
Speaker 1: fully heal that fracture. Having said all that, I think
21:32
Speaker 1: that it is important to acknowledge the person who has
21:35
Speaker 1: engaged in the wrong behavior in some way to let
21:39
Speaker 1: them know that you have heard their story, that you're
21:42
Speaker 1: thinking of them and wishing them healing. You know, a
21:45
Speaker 1: version of being able to stand in the sphere of
21:49
Speaker 1: someone who is dealing with something difficult and trying to
21:53
Speaker 1: heal and find um forgiveness within themselves and find better
21:58
Speaker 1: ways and better copy mac isms, that you can stand
22:01
Speaker 1: even symbolically to support that effort, even if you aren't
22:05
Speaker 1: directly involved. So communicating in some way that I support
22:09
Speaker 1: your effort as you move towards healing UM and I
22:13
Speaker 1: want you to know that kind of thing could serve
22:15
Speaker 1: to communicate I'm thinking of you. I'm here from you
22:18
Speaker 1: for you, and I am um supporting the idea of
22:22
Speaker 1: this being changed worthy behavior, you know, so trying to navigate,
22:26
Speaker 1: UM what I think you're asking, which is, how do
22:28
Speaker 1: I love on someone? How do I support someone and
22:31
Speaker 1: also make it clear that I don't endorse or support
22:33
Speaker 1: the behavior. So there's there's some version of being able
22:37
Speaker 1: to do that in a respectful way. I mean, it
22:40
Speaker 1: depends on the role of the person that you're talking about.
22:42
Speaker 1: If it's a dearer friend of yours, you might have
22:45
Speaker 1: a more candid conversation with that person. How did this happen?
22:48
Speaker 1: Where did things go wrong? How can I support you
22:50
Speaker 1: in figuring out a different way? You know? Right? If
22:54
Speaker 1: it's someone that you know less well and are just
22:57
Speaker 1: trying to sort of put out into the world that
22:59
Speaker 1: you don't support the behavior and that you do support healing,
23:04
Speaker 1: and there's probably a way to do that without triggering
23:07
Speaker 1: um too many people in your own spere and in
23:10
Speaker 1: that person's here. I UM find myself frustratingly inarticulate, especially
23:19
Speaker 1: in tough, sticky situation like the heart of the situation,
23:22
Speaker 1: to talk about the the less words come to me right,
23:27
Speaker 1: and things just may come out that I that don't
23:34
Speaker 1: do the job that I intended them to do. Like
23:37
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, I guess, what are some
23:40
Speaker 1: trigger words or phrases that I wouldn't think were offensive
23:45
Speaker 1: to a victim? But are Can you think of anyone? Mhm?
23:51
Speaker 1: I think the notion of over questioning the victim about, UM,
24:01
Speaker 1: their narrative. I thought you guys, I thought you guys
24:04
Speaker 1: were in a really good place. I've never seen that
24:09
Speaker 1: kind of energy between you two, you know, any anything
24:13
Speaker 1: that might demonstrate, UM, a dismissiveness or a denial or
24:18
Speaker 1: a disbelief of the victim's story. UM, we really want
24:22
Speaker 1: to be careful to avoid. I think that that's that's
24:27
Speaker 1: a primary thing that comes to mind. UM. I think
24:33
Speaker 1: platitudes can be difficult for people to take into. Oh
24:37
Speaker 1: that's really hard, you know kind of thing, UM, really
24:42
Speaker 1: asking questions and sitting back and listening I think is critical.
24:45
Speaker 1: What what's that? What's this been like for you? How
24:48
Speaker 1: was it been? It's hard for me to imagine. I
24:51
Speaker 1: would love to sit with you as you talk about it,
24:53
Speaker 1: you know kind of thing. You know, Ben mentioned something
24:56
Speaker 1: really important which I want to rehighlight around being able
24:59
Speaker 1: to tell lerate that silence and that I guess awkwardness.
25:03
Speaker 1: This is a messy, awkward situation, the one that we're
25:06
Speaker 1: talking about, specifically, in any situation, whether there's domestic violence
25:10
Speaker 1: or harassment or stalking, and so, but being able to
25:13
Speaker 1: tolerate the messiness of it as as someone on the outside,
25:16
Speaker 1: as someone who's not the victim. You know, that's that's
25:19
Speaker 1: a job we should probably try to take on. You know,
25:21
Speaker 1: since we're not the victim, we're not the perpetrator, we're
25:23
Speaker 1: a support member. And so being able to sit in
25:26
Speaker 1: the silence, being able to sit in the awkwardness, being
25:28
Speaker 1: able to say I'm not even sure what to say
25:32
Speaker 1: right now, but I'm I'm just gonna sit here with you.
25:35
Speaker 1: I think are really important skills to cultivate in moments
25:39
Speaker 1: like this. We don't have to fix it. As a
25:41
Speaker 1: support number. We we cannot fix it. We cannot. That
25:44
Speaker 1: isn't our job. The best that we can do is
25:46
Speaker 1: to let people know we love you, We're here, I'm
25:48
Speaker 1: sitting with you in this. I thank you for all
25:53
Speaker 1: of this. By the way, this is really helpful for me, um,
25:58
Speaker 1: and I hope it is for the listener, especially coming
26:01
Speaker 1: off of, you know, something that was contentious and misunderstood
26:06
Speaker 1: and really fired people up. I I was told I
26:09
Speaker 1: was talking to Buddy yesterday and was just like just
26:12
Speaker 1: in the worst possible place mentally, and he he just
26:17
Speaker 1: reminded me, he said, hey, like this is really hard. Uh,
26:21
Speaker 1: you know your intentions. Um, it sometimes takes really difficult
26:25
Speaker 1: situations to bring about something positive. And I think what
26:30
Speaker 1: I'm feeling is like the firing up and the anger
26:34
Speaker 1: it was was healthy at some level, because what it
26:37
Speaker 1: is is it forces us to sit down and say, Okay,
26:39
Speaker 1: let's regroup and let's talk about how we actually communicate
26:41
Speaker 1: to others who have really difficult situations, and maybe we
26:45
Speaker 1: can all take something away from the message that you're
26:48
Speaker 1: sharing and go, I just want to be a better friend,
26:50
Speaker 1: a better partner, a better son, a better sister, whatever
26:53
Speaker 1: that is. Uh. And I hope that's happening. Um, it's
26:56
Speaker 1: happening for me. Uh. If we could spend a few moments,
27:00
Speaker 1: something that was intrigued to me is you know, it's
27:02
Speaker 1: no secret we're in a very divisive time in the
27:05
Speaker 1: United States, especially. Uh. It feels like, especially during quarantine
27:09
Speaker 1: I hear more and more often that people just feel
27:11
Speaker 1: like they can't communicate with each other, and that there's
27:13
Speaker 1: these silos that we run into and everybody's yelling at
27:17
Speaker 1: each other, you know, through the silo, and nobody actually
27:19
Speaker 1: wants to enter in to understand where the other person
27:22
Speaker 1: is coming from. With that being the stage, it's set
27:25
Speaker 1: right now, and for a lot of us feeling it.
27:27
Speaker 1: I don't want to assume everybody, but a lot of
27:29
Speaker 1: us is feeling it. How do we navigate then moving
27:32
Speaker 1: from difficult situations that can that surround trauma to then
27:36
Speaker 1: just moving about our everyday lives talking about things that
27:39
Speaker 1: are triggering Mm. So you're saying, how do how do
27:44
Speaker 1: how do those things coexist both the truth that trauma
27:47
Speaker 1: has occurred is occurring, and how do we also go
27:50
Speaker 1: about our sort of regular day. Yeah, and and then
27:53
Speaker 1: moving then into like how do we start talking about
27:56
Speaker 1: difficult subjects that maybe don't aren't back by trauma, but
27:59
Speaker 1: they're back by our passions and our feelings, if that
28:02
Speaker 1: be spiritually, politically, emotionally. So what you're saying, Yeah, I
28:07
Speaker 1: think it's it's a it's a really timely question for um.
28:11
Speaker 1: The environment in which we find ourselves and a lot
28:14
Speaker 1: of important discussions need to happen right now in our society.
28:18
Speaker 1: So it's really good to be thinking about how do
28:20
Speaker 1: I do this in a way that's most digestible. I
28:22
Speaker 1: think that's what you're talking about. So being able to
28:26
Speaker 1: narrate that upfront, I think it's really really important. Um,
28:30
Speaker 1: you know, in the context of a podcast that you host,
28:32
Speaker 1: or when you're talking with friends or family, being able
28:34
Speaker 1: to say I have a lot on my mind right
28:36
Speaker 1: now and I want to I want to share it,
28:39
Speaker 1: I want to talk about it. I want to elicit
28:40
Speaker 1: feedback and have discourse. But it's it's difficult material, it's
28:44
Speaker 1: it's triggering. Um, it's about the BLM movement, it's about
28:50
Speaker 1: domestic violence, it's about our our upcoming election. Are you
28:54
Speaker 1: available to have that kind of discussion. I'd like to
28:57
Speaker 1: do it if you're up for it kind of thing.
28:59
Speaker 1: I mean, this is and something you could ask on
29:00
Speaker 1: a podcast, but if you're with friends or family, and
29:03
Speaker 1: if you're about to do something like that on a podcast,
29:05
Speaker 1: sort of letting the audience know that we're gonna we're
29:08
Speaker 1: gonna go into some territory that might be triggering. There's
29:11
Speaker 1: that word again. That might be complex, that might be messy,
29:14
Speaker 1: but it's important as people, especially given the times that
29:17
Speaker 1: we're in, to go there so we can all learn,
29:19
Speaker 1: so we can educate, so we can transform. And so
29:22
Speaker 1: I think when people feel like they have UM a
29:26
Speaker 1: narrative to present what your intentions are and to let
29:29
Speaker 1: them know what's coming that they are, they feel more
29:32
Speaker 1: open to it and feel more contained before you enter
29:36
Speaker 1: into the part where you're talking about really difficult material
29:39
Speaker 1: and triggering stuff. So I think that's a way that
29:44
Speaker 1: we can be careful UM with our words and with
29:48
Speaker 1: our sentiments, but not shut down and avoid them. Because
29:52
Speaker 1: we don't want to do that either. Why not why
29:55
Speaker 1: I mean why in these moments, in holistically what we've
29:58
Speaker 1: just talked about through this up until this point on
30:00
Speaker 1: this podcast, why don't we want to just ignore them
30:03
Speaker 1: and shut down. If we ignore them and shut down,
30:05
Speaker 1: we never learned, We never grow, we never transform, we
30:09
Speaker 1: never change. As I was looking at some of the
30:12
Speaker 1: discourse that was happening on your UM Instagram page, one
30:18
Speaker 1: of the reasons I wanted to come join you today
30:20
Speaker 1: is that I didn't want the conversation to get foreclosed because,
30:24
Speaker 1: for example, domestic violence is a really important topic and
30:27
Speaker 1: a lot of people have UM shame, embarrassment, and myriad
30:31
Speaker 1: of experiences that they can't imagine sharing because it feels
30:35
Speaker 1: so triggering and um they fear that there's judgment and repercussions.
30:40
Speaker 1: And I don't want that for people that are victims.
30:43
Speaker 1: I want there to be a discussion that can feel
30:45
Speaker 1: supportive and open and has an opportunity to educate people
30:49
Speaker 1: who don't know you know, who don't know about it,
30:51
Speaker 1: who don't know how to talk about it. And that
30:53
Speaker 1: goes for all sensitive topics. If we shut down and
30:57
Speaker 1: don't don't talk about it, we never grow and transform
30:59
Speaker 1: and change change. And we see that with the Black
31:01
Speaker 1: Lives movement now right is that finally as a society
31:04
Speaker 1: we're starting to talk about it and things are beginning
31:07
Speaker 1: slowly to change. Do you think that there's anything that
31:11
Speaker 1: we should talk about now that we have an addressed
31:14
Speaker 1: yet that will help educate people on this. I think
31:19
Speaker 1: talking about what happened yesterday or whenever you guys did
31:24
Speaker 1: that the podcast is probably the most key thing that
31:27
Speaker 1: you can do in terms of educating people. How having
31:31
Speaker 1: um um casual discussions about sensitive, difficult, painful topics can
31:41
Speaker 1: impact people, right, And I think I think that's the
31:44
Speaker 1: thread of your message, is part of the recognition that,
31:47
Speaker 1: like may, we want to be able to talk about this,
31:49
Speaker 1: and we want to do it in the best way possible,
31:51
Speaker 1: and so being able to stand up and go, wow,
31:53
Speaker 1: we we might not have done that in the best
31:55
Speaker 1: way possible. Um, And and we're okay standing up and
31:59
Speaker 1: saying that because we wanted the examples of how to
32:02
Speaker 1: again grow, transform and do it differently. And so to me,
32:06
Speaker 1: I hope that's the biggest takeaway for folks listening is that, right,
32:10
Speaker 1: we all might make mistakes when we talk about things
32:12
Speaker 1: that are messy because it's hard, and um, we get confused,
32:17
Speaker 1: we we we lose the through line. Um, we're overly
32:20
Speaker 1: casual in a moment um and we can step back
32:24
Speaker 1: and learn and impact people in a more positive way.
32:28
Speaker 1: We never want to lose a moment like that. We discussed, Um,
32:32
Speaker 1: we discussed cancel culture a couple you know, during the
32:34
Speaker 1: same podcast, and I think that what I don't like
32:40
Speaker 1: about cancel culture so much is that it's just not
32:44
Speaker 1: forgiving and it doesn't allow people to learn from their mistakes,
32:50
Speaker 1: And UM, I guess, how do you feel that counterculture
32:54
Speaker 1: is affecting these kinds of kinds of conversation, because now
32:57
Speaker 1: I feel like there's even more fear or round having
33:00
Speaker 1: conversations like this. I talk a lot about cancel culture
33:04
Speaker 1: in my work, and I always say there's there's probably
33:07
Speaker 1: a time and a place for cancel culture, like a
33:09
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein or something right where there's been there's been
33:14
Speaker 1: such sort of documented a borrent behavior that disaffiliating from
33:21
Speaker 1: someone like that makes a lot of sense. So in
33:25
Speaker 1: some ways that it can apply, and it's it's a
33:28
Speaker 1: way that society can hold someone accountable who has wronged
33:33
Speaker 1: so many people on that level. Having said that, in
33:37
Speaker 1: a situation like you guys are dealing with, when someone
33:40
Speaker 1: does or says something that feels hurtful or triggering to people,
33:44
Speaker 1: if we totally foreclose conversation, we absolutely lose moments for
33:49
Speaker 1: people to grow and change and educate themselves and to
33:53
Speaker 1: educate um others that are participating or listening. And so
33:57
Speaker 1: I think it it really can do harm in that sense.
34:00
Speaker 1: And if we have willing spirits like you two are,
34:03
Speaker 1: who want to learn, who want to listen who want
34:06
Speaker 1: to hear and grow and think about this and talk
34:08
Speaker 1: about that. We don't want to miss that. In my opinion,
34:11
Speaker 1: we don't want to miss that at all. We want
34:12
Speaker 1: to highlight it. And we have two people are willing
34:14
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable and say, like, I don't know if
34:16
Speaker 1: that went as well as it could have. I want
34:18
Speaker 1: to do that better. Let's hold that up. Like I said,
34:21
Speaker 1: if we have willing spirits and show people what it
34:24
Speaker 1: looks like to go, I might out of like how
34:26
Speaker 1: that went. I want to do it differently. I want
34:28
Speaker 1: to talk about it, want to be vulnerable. And I
34:31
Speaker 1: think if we were able to do that in um
34:34
Speaker 1: small and large scales over and over and over again,
34:37
Speaker 1: we'd be more connected as a society. So I think
34:40
Speaker 1: every little moment like this matters, where we have someone
34:43
Speaker 1: who is willing to say I want to be vulnerable,
34:45
Speaker 1: I want to learn. So I dislike cancel culture when
34:49
Speaker 1: it's applied in this kind of situation because we miss
34:51
Speaker 1: all of that, and that's where a lot of the
34:53
Speaker 1: beauty and learning comes. We're you know, because this is
34:59
Speaker 1: what how been on our podcast as an example, and UM,
35:03
Speaker 1: we're trying to use it to create a bigger discussion
35:05
Speaker 1: that we all are learning from, um, including the listener
35:08
Speaker 1: out there. And so if we're looking at all of
35:11
Speaker 1: us here going okay, this happened, This is a good
35:13
Speaker 1: example that we can all that we've pretty much all
35:16
Speaker 1: heard and we understand, Um, where is the through line?
35:19
Speaker 1: Then you've talked about the through line, like where does cancel?
35:22
Speaker 1: Like how do we even look at this? And people
35:23
Speaker 1: are really enraged and they're angry and they're triggered, and
35:26
Speaker 1: they feel like there there's there's stuff on our podcast.
35:30
Speaker 1: It's justifying stuff that they are very much against, and
35:32
Speaker 1: it's like, no, it's not at all, it's not at
35:35
Speaker 1: all what was meant? So, like what stops that person
35:38
Speaker 1: from going through the through line saying I'm just done
35:40
Speaker 1: or saying I'm going to stick it out for a bit,
35:42
Speaker 1: Like how do you help, like in a healthy with
35:44
Speaker 1: healthy boundaries understand that for yourself? Mhm. Hopefully this kind
35:49
Speaker 1: of discourse kind of traits the the upset and sense
35:55
Speaker 1: of enragement that people are experiencing right now, you know,
35:58
Speaker 1: this kind of discourse and keep will get in touch
36:00
Speaker 1: with their own humanity, you know, and their own um,
36:04
Speaker 1: their own ability to to make mistakes and UM their
36:09
Speaker 1: own flaws, you know, and that these kind of discussions
36:13
Speaker 1: make someone go like, right, we all make mistakes, we
36:16
Speaker 1: all show up in ways that we aren't proud of
36:18
Speaker 1: in moments, and if we shut each other down after
36:22
Speaker 1: those things occur, we never get to stay connected, we
36:26
Speaker 1: never get to learn, we never get to stay whole, really,
36:29
Speaker 1: and so we hope that it just penetrates people's sense
36:32
Speaker 1: of humanity, you know. That's really the through line to me.
36:35
Speaker 1: And look, I I support the idea of people advocating
36:42
Speaker 1: for victims of domestic violence. It's a good idea to
36:46
Speaker 1: make sure that victims of domestic violence don't feel shamed
36:49
Speaker 1: or don't feel exploited. That's that's a good idea, and
36:53
Speaker 1: I would stand alongside someone who is advocating for that.
36:56
Speaker 1: And so I think your listeners that that were were
37:00
Speaker 1: sending that message along can feel UM supported, were justified.
37:05
Speaker 1: I think the nuance we're trying to demonstrate here is
37:08
Speaker 1: that you guys stand with that idea too, that idea too,
37:12
Speaker 1: that the kind of dialogue that you had UM might
37:17
Speaker 1: not have fully demonstrated that, and for that you are
37:21
Speaker 1: sorry and want to do better. UM, but that everyone
37:24
Speaker 1: can stand together and in the the idea that we
37:28
Speaker 1: want victims to heal and to feel supported, and we
37:32
Speaker 1: want perpetrators to be health responsible. And so I think
37:35
Speaker 1: that people are able to take kind of a deep
37:37
Speaker 1: breath and allow those truths to sink in that those
37:41
Speaker 1: were the messages that you guys stood behind UM to
37:43
Speaker 1: begin with. As well. We don't have to be so divisive,
37:46
Speaker 1: because this is why often divisiveness happens, is that people
37:49
Speaker 1: aren't willing to fully listen, you know. So I guess
37:53
Speaker 1: the through line is humanity and listening. And and some
37:56
Speaker 1: people listening UM might find that and some people UM
38:00
Speaker 1: might not. And and that's okay, because this is messy,
38:03
Speaker 1: This is emotional and messy, and I think we have
38:05
Speaker 1: to be okay with with all of this being imperfect
38:08
Speaker 1: because it's a hard situation and and a lot of
38:11
Speaker 1: people's UM emotional reaction reactions are super justified in the
38:16
Speaker 1: sense that they're genuine, you know, feelings, and they're to
38:19
Speaker 1: do the right thing. I'm just like you guys are.
38:22
Speaker 1: So we may also have to just be okay with
38:24
Speaker 1: with everyone living with a degree of upset around this
38:27
Speaker 1: because this is a hard topic. Dr Goldcher, I really
38:32
Speaker 1: appreciate you, UM, thank you for for doing this with us. UM.
38:37
Speaker 1: It's been really good for me. I I hope it's
38:41
Speaker 1: good for you know a few people out there listening. UM,
38:45
Speaker 1: thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insight, and thank
38:47
Speaker 1: you for willing, you know, kind of being willing to
38:49
Speaker 1: sit with us through something that's difficult and then also
38:52
Speaker 1: educating all of us on how we can be better. Uh.
38:55
Speaker 1: Dr Goldcher, Uh, before you leave, if anybody's out there listening,
38:59
Speaker 1: who is in the midst of deep trauma, Uh, they
39:03
Speaker 1: haven't found an outlet to speak about it. What advice
39:06
Speaker 1: would you give to anybody for ways to get help,
39:09
Speaker 1: resources to get help, et cetera. Yeah, Well, it's so
39:14
Speaker 1: important to just begin talking to someone. And if that's
39:17
Speaker 1: just a trusted other, a friend or a partner or
39:20
Speaker 1: a family member, it's critical to start getting your story out.
39:24
Speaker 1: And if you're finding that you have invasive symptoms, whether
39:28
Speaker 1: that's depression and anxiety, women in thoughts, etcetera, that you
39:32
Speaker 1: reach out to a professional and UM you can google
39:35
Speaker 1: in your local areas looking you're a psychologist that specialize
39:39
Speaker 1: in domestic violence and UM during quarantine COVID. Lots of
39:43
Speaker 1: folks are offering virtual sessions and so there's resources available immediately.
39:47
Speaker 1: So I would just encourage to start talking first with
39:51
Speaker 1: trusted others and then with a professional additional help is needed.
39:56
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. It means a
39:58
Speaker 1: lot of cranky. I'm glad I could be that our
40:11
Speaker 1: next guest is somebody who has become a friend of mine. Um,
40:14
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know through a couple of different instances.
40:17
Speaker 1: Alice was a huge supporter of The Bachelive on stage, Alise,
40:23
Speaker 1: welcome to the Almost Famous podcast. Thank you and thanks
40:26
Speaker 1: for having me. Thank you. I want to give a
40:29
Speaker 1: little bit of a background while you're here. UM, from
40:32
Speaker 1: my perspective, so we've already broached on the things that
40:36
Speaker 1: I said that came off poorly and that triggered some
40:41
Speaker 1: and that angered many, and UH, through all of this,
40:46
Speaker 1: you were actually the first time I even knew this,
40:49
Speaker 1: Like when you texted me, it was the first time
40:52
Speaker 1: I even knew something was happening. I was with my
40:54
Speaker 1: parents and UM, I got your text, and your text
41:00
Speaker 1: just laid out to me that hey, you had listened
41:02
Speaker 1: to the podcast, that there was some things said that
41:05
Speaker 1: you felt, uh, we're not right and you wanted to
41:07
Speaker 1: get clarity on them. Uh. You know that's been what
41:12
Speaker 1: two days now, um, since you texted me, and you've
41:16
Speaker 1: been a consistent voice to me through that. You um
41:20
Speaker 1: did not only uh bring it to light in my
41:23
Speaker 1: life and to tell me how I misspoke and what
41:26
Speaker 1: I said that was triggering, but you then also and
41:29
Speaker 1: have encouraged me and help guide me through this and
41:33
Speaker 1: it will. It's weird how life happens and how there's
41:36
Speaker 1: unexpected people that kind of step in at moments that
41:39
Speaker 1: you don't expect it and when you need it, and
41:41
Speaker 1: and speak truth into you. That isn't just you know,
41:46
Speaker 1: saying things that are nice to help you feel better,
41:48
Speaker 1: but you actually like speaking constructive criticism into you so
41:51
Speaker 1: that you can be better. And you've done that for me.
41:54
Speaker 1: So it was only right that we brought you on
41:56
Speaker 1: because you do come from a place uh that can
41:59
Speaker 1: speak to this, and you've spoken to me, and so
42:03
Speaker 1: I just want to open up the floor to you
42:05
Speaker 1: to talk about why you're here and why this mattered
42:07
Speaker 1: to you so much. Yeah, it was a friend that
42:11
Speaker 1: sent me your end. Thanks for all those kind words,
42:14
Speaker 1: but um, it was a friend that sent me the clip,
42:17
Speaker 1: and I'll be honest, I I didn't listen to the
42:19
Speaker 1: whole episode, but I listened to what we're talking about today,
42:23
Speaker 1: and immediately I knew why she had sent me the clip.
42:26
Speaker 1: And I know you guys have talked about this earlier
42:28
Speaker 1: in this podcast, but UM, I felt that when you
42:33
Speaker 1: are quote unquote a public figure, right, people on social
42:37
Speaker 1: media are quick to um jump and want to make
42:41
Speaker 1: commentary and speculate on people's intentions behind their words. And
42:44
Speaker 1: I think from our brief interactions together, I had a
42:47
Speaker 1: very good sense of that you don't do things with
42:50
Speaker 1: intention to hurt people. And I wanted to go into
42:53
Speaker 1: the conversation with you initially privately, UM, knowing what I
42:58
Speaker 1: know of you, and that your attentions in having that
43:03
Speaker 1: conversation and wanting to show support for casts but also
43:08
Speaker 1: um empathy for other humans that are involved got massively. Ah,
43:15
Speaker 1: you missed the mark, and I told you that in
43:17
Speaker 1: our conversation. And I think for me, this is not
43:21
Speaker 1: something that I ever thought I would talk about publicly
43:24
Speaker 1: because it is so personal and there's very mixed messages.
43:29
Speaker 1: But I felt like by me reaching out to you
43:32
Speaker 1: and sharing a little bit of my back story and
43:35
Speaker 1: being a victim of domestic partner abuse, UM, and having
43:39
Speaker 1: to go through some of these really difficult choices that
43:43
Speaker 1: um that you guys were talking about having a perspective
43:47
Speaker 1: from the other end. UM, maybe I could said, shed
43:51
Speaker 1: some light, but from a place of hopefully love and
43:54
Speaker 1: compassion and not just anger over what was said. Well,
44:00
Speaker 1: you've done that, UM, And I mean I I can't
44:04
Speaker 1: tell you how much I do appreciate it, UM, because
44:08
Speaker 1: I do. I think it's it's probably helpful. And we
44:11
Speaker 1: haven't dove into this yet, but you know the words
44:15
Speaker 1: that I said, UM, that love makes you do crazy things?
44:20
Speaker 1: What about that? And triggered you? What about that? Frustrated you? Um?
44:26
Speaker 1: I think there's two parts of it one it really UM.
44:30
Speaker 1: Unfortunately have this narrative through even just movies, But just
44:34
Speaker 1: are our idea of what love should look like based
44:38
Speaker 1: on the representations we have around us, and sometimes those
44:41
Speaker 1: representations really aren't a healthy display of love. We've all
44:45
Speaker 1: gone through heartbreak and navigated it poorly. Right, You've sent
44:49
Speaker 1: you have one too many cocktails and sent a text
44:51
Speaker 1: that you regret like we can all agree that it's
44:55
Speaker 1: not that was not an act of love when you
44:57
Speaker 1: sent that texts. That's acting out of ego and her.
45:00
Speaker 1: But there's a massive distinction between a regrettable text or
45:04
Speaker 1: a comment set in an argument and intentionally and purposefully
45:11
Speaker 1: causing someone physical, emotional, or psychological harm. There those two
45:16
Speaker 1: can't go hand in hand because love and then I
45:19
Speaker 1: know you talk a lot about your faith, and if
45:21
Speaker 1: we go back to like the good old Corinthians passage
45:24
Speaker 1: that we all talk about of what is love? But
45:27
Speaker 1: I was, I was looking at that last night, there
45:29
Speaker 1: is never a time in there that it excuses behavior
45:33
Speaker 1: that is not beneficial to others. Because at the root
45:37
Speaker 1: of it, we have to stop talking about and and
45:40
Speaker 1: in a way or at least verbally making it sound
45:43
Speaker 1: like we're excusing poor behavior as passion, as intimacy, and
45:49
Speaker 1: nobody understands our relationship but us. These are all a
45:53
Speaker 1: narrative that abusers use to justify their actions, so that
45:59
Speaker 1: when we use the same narratives that the victim has
46:02
Speaker 1: heard over and over, you think they must be right.
46:06
Speaker 1: He is right, he just loves me. We're passionate, we
46:08
Speaker 1: fight hard, we love harder. That's not love. Yeah, And
46:13
Speaker 1: so um, that part of it affected me. But also
46:18
Speaker 1: I want I want to make it clear too that
46:21
Speaker 1: I can understand wanting to have empathy for just a
46:26
Speaker 1: human person, whoever that is, and that it doesn't coincide
46:30
Speaker 1: with making excuses for inexcusable behavior. But you would hope,
46:36
Speaker 1: especially for me, and I'm happy to share some of
46:39
Speaker 1: the backstory that that there is some sort of intervention
46:43
Speaker 1: with mental health or whatever the case may be, that
46:45
Speaker 1: they break those cycles of abuse. Because the person that
46:48
Speaker 1: did to me did to someone earlier and maybe if
46:51
Speaker 1: they've had that help, um, that wouldn't have happened to me,
46:56
Speaker 1: And unfortunately it happened to the girl after me. And
46:59
Speaker 1: so I want to encourage that people that are really
47:02
Speaker 1: struggling with whether they had prior abuse in their lives
47:05
Speaker 1: and it's manifesting and now their romantic relationship, that they
47:10
Speaker 1: should and absolutely should get help. But when we say
47:14
Speaker 1: things that make the narrative of the abuser something that
47:19
Speaker 1: is so commonplace for the victim, it really makes you
47:24
Speaker 1: second guess, um, your own intuition of what is right
47:28
Speaker 1: or wrong in a relationship. I think that's one of
47:32
Speaker 1: the biggest things I've learned. And you highlight it to
47:36
Speaker 1: me was that that those words I used, that we're irresponsible,
47:43
Speaker 1: they give an excuse for why things are happening, and
47:48
Speaker 1: not only did it justify it, but it excused it,
47:51
Speaker 1: and it did make it commonplace. And for me, that's
47:55
Speaker 1: a takeaway from this that honestly I didn't understand until you.
48:00
Speaker 1: I like it to me, but now as you explain
48:02
Speaker 1: it and have explained it to me, it is definitely hurtful.
48:09
Speaker 1: When I said that it's hurtful, I can see where
48:13
Speaker 1: somebody would listen to that who is in the midst
48:16
Speaker 1: or who has been a victim, and go, Ben is
48:20
Speaker 1: excusing actions that have devastated me and hurt my life. Yeah,
48:28
Speaker 1: and you know, and that's why I wanted to talk
48:30
Speaker 1: to you initially about privately, because I know your heart,
48:34
Speaker 1: I think, and I know that that was not the
48:36
Speaker 1: intention behind your words, but I think opening up if
48:39
Speaker 1: anything positive is to come from what has I'm sure
48:43
Speaker 1: for you've been a really really dark time. Um of
48:46
Speaker 1: hearing these comments and accusations about your intention. Bond behind
48:51
Speaker 1: those words is that it's opening up a dialogue for
48:54
Speaker 1: someone to give not you, not only you, information, but
48:58
Speaker 1: other people that the we have to change the narrative
49:01
Speaker 1: around what domestic abuse even looks like. Because I'm going
49:06
Speaker 1: to be honest, the if you look into like statistics,
49:10
Speaker 1: and I shared some of these with Ben, and I'm
49:12
Speaker 1: sure earlier you guys mentioned this when you were talking
49:15
Speaker 1: about a therapist, But um, I feel like we put
49:17
Speaker 1: things on this spectrum of and I've even seen this
49:20
Speaker 1: in comments about recent events. If they're not hit, if
49:24
Speaker 1: they're not sexually abused, it almost goes on this spectrum
49:30
Speaker 1: of how bad is it really? And when you start
49:33
Speaker 1: going through statistics, and I did after our conversation Ben,
49:37
Speaker 1: and I'm sitting there checking off going down of things
49:41
Speaker 1: of how it impacts people's lives to be harassed, to
49:44
Speaker 1: be stocked. It is psychological warfare. And that is the
49:49
Speaker 1: best way I can put it. And I'm not discrediting
49:52
Speaker 1: the severity of what other people go through as far
49:56
Speaker 1: as actual physical abuse or otherwise, but all levels of
50:01
Speaker 1: abuse have long term effects on the person that was victimized.
50:06
Speaker 1: And and so yes, words and and things that make
50:10
Speaker 1: it seem okay if just taken from faith value of
50:14
Speaker 1: what those words are really discredit the actual work that
50:19
Speaker 1: myself and others have to do to just feel like
50:24
Speaker 1: themselves again. And I can't speak for everyone obviously, but um,
50:29
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much that through my experience I lost
50:32
Speaker 1: trust in other people or even romantic relationships, but I
50:35
Speaker 1: lost trust in myself of what I was allowing in
50:38
Speaker 1: my life the wise, all these things that go through
50:41
Speaker 1: your head when constantly you are just scared at every turn,
50:45
Speaker 1: and to not trust yourself is something that takes years
50:49
Speaker 1: to overcome. And so I don't want to minimalize abuse
50:53
Speaker 1: as category A is bad, category B is worse, and
50:57
Speaker 1: and C is the absolute worst, because all off it
51:00
Speaker 1: has just unbelievable long term effects on the person that
51:04
Speaker 1: went through it. It might be helpful here how do
51:11
Speaker 1: you define abuse? This is certainly not going to be
51:19
Speaker 1: a therapist way of defining it, But for myself, it
51:25
Speaker 1: where I could draw the line was would I accept
51:29
Speaker 1: this if my best friend was telling me this was
51:32
Speaker 1: happening to her. M hmm At some point, Yeah, people
51:36
Speaker 1: are going to go through you know, we all make
51:38
Speaker 1: mistakes and relationships, We all do and say things that
51:40
Speaker 1: are regrettable. But when you are in a position where
51:45
Speaker 1: you're losing work, you're forced to move, you are isolated,
51:50
Speaker 1: and I really want to hone in on that isolation thing,
51:52
Speaker 1: because that is usually how this starts. No matter what
51:54
Speaker 1: type of abuse, it is the easiest way to control
51:57
Speaker 1: and manipulate someone is to isolate them as much as
52:00
Speaker 1: possible from friends and family that care about them that
52:03
Speaker 1: would point out that this is not okay. So if
52:07
Speaker 1: I was seeing this in a friend and her relationship
52:10
Speaker 1: or his relationship, at what point would I step in
52:13
Speaker 1: and say something? And if I would do that for them,
52:16
Speaker 1: why aren't I doing it for myself? So I define
52:19
Speaker 1: abuse as behavior that I wouldn't tolerate for the people
52:22
Speaker 1: that I love the most, because a lot of times
52:25
Speaker 1: we were very quick to jump to action for people
52:27
Speaker 1: we love and not as quick to jump to protect
52:29
Speaker 1: ourselves else when you're going through this, was there a
52:34
Speaker 1: friend of yours that really excelled in taking care of you?
52:38
Speaker 1: And can you explain how they were able to communicate
52:42
Speaker 1: with you in such an effective way? I am very,
52:45
Speaker 1: very lucky that I have an incredible family and my
52:49
Speaker 1: dad is Can I say he's a no bullshitter? He
52:55
Speaker 1: tells things like it is, But when um, we're living
52:59
Speaker 1: states apart, it's not always easy to see what's going on.
53:03
Speaker 1: And at the time I was not really close to
53:06
Speaker 1: many people, and like I said, isolation becomes a huge
53:09
Speaker 1: part of it. I remember the people that introduced me
53:12
Speaker 1: to this guy. I wasn't even allowed to be in
53:13
Speaker 1: their wedding because he had a problem with it. I mean,
53:16
Speaker 1: this is the extent that people go to make sure
53:19
Speaker 1: that you're in a bubble all to yourself or two
53:23
Speaker 1: the abuse yourself. Really, UM did I have friends that
53:26
Speaker 1: supported me, absolutely, But during it, I'll be honest, I
53:32
Speaker 1: was hiding a lot of what was going on out
53:34
Speaker 1: of fear of criticism, out of shame that wasn't mine
53:39
Speaker 1: to hold. But that is something I think a lot
53:41
Speaker 1: of people experience. UM it's embarrassing. You don't want to
53:46
Speaker 1: admit to how bad things really got. We all want
53:49
Speaker 1: to have the happily ever after and when it goes
53:52
Speaker 1: on a path that is so opposite of that. UM,
53:56
Speaker 1: it's really hard to open up to people. But after
53:59
Speaker 1: I came forward, and I'll be honest, I was forced
54:01
Speaker 1: to come forward. It was not a decision I made
54:03
Speaker 1: on my own. UM. The state press charges and after
54:09
Speaker 1: a particularly bad incident and then we things escalated from there,
54:13
Speaker 1: but after I came forward the amount of support I had,
54:18
Speaker 1: whether it was from family even from a long distance,
54:20
Speaker 1: or friends just having a yeah, an unbiased of course
54:27
Speaker 1: they support you. But if you have a friend going
54:30
Speaker 1: through this, don't go into like the rhetoric of like
54:34
Speaker 1: your favorite self help guru, because it's a lot deeper
54:38
Speaker 1: than you know. Think positive and you'll get through this. UM,
54:42
Speaker 1: you have to understand that by the time someone opens up,
54:45
Speaker 1: they've more than likely been holding onto this pain and
54:48
Speaker 1: the shame that goes along with that for longer than
54:51
Speaker 1: you have ever recognized. Because you become so good at
54:54
Speaker 1: being a chameleon too, keeping that person happy so that
54:59
Speaker 1: the abuse doesn't contin in you, but also to not
55:02
Speaker 1: show anyone else was going on out of fear of
55:05
Speaker 1: retaliation if you do UH. At least, I want to
55:10
Speaker 1: give you the ability to share your story as much
55:13
Speaker 1: as you're comfortable with. UM. But just before we do,
55:18
Speaker 1: you did share some statistics with me. I don't know
55:20
Speaker 1: if they're in front of you right now. UM, I
55:22
Speaker 1: have a couple of them, I know I sent a
55:24
Speaker 1: few a few in in our conversation, but yeah, do
55:28
Speaker 1: you mind sharing those? And then whatever amount of your
55:32
Speaker 1: story you're comfortable sharing. UH, if you'd like to do that,
55:35
Speaker 1: I think it would be appreciated. UM. And I can
55:38
Speaker 1: certainly give you the link to where I found these,
55:40
Speaker 1: but it was from a two thousand and eleven studies,
55:42
Speaker 1: So I can't even imagine how this is escalated with
55:45
Speaker 1: technology advancing. UM. But one in seven people and this
55:52
Speaker 1: is this is only about UM domestic abuse that was
55:57
Speaker 1: not escalated to violent an axe or homicide. One in
56:04
Speaker 1: seven lost work, one and eight were forced or forcibly
56:10
Speaker 1: moved out out of fear of harassment. Victims report their
56:15
Speaker 1: personality was changed as a result. And the one that
56:21
Speaker 1: really struck me because it's not a fun thing to
56:24
Speaker 1: talk about, but UM that within the first year after
56:30
Speaker 1: legality and all of this has settled, one in four
56:33
Speaker 1: people that have been harassed and or stock will contemplate suicide.
56:37
Speaker 1: When you go into the statistics of UM what it
56:40
Speaker 1: looks like for issues of harassment and stocking to escalate. UM,
56:46
Speaker 1: I think the numbers would floor you. But these are
56:50
Speaker 1: just things that because thankfully that that wasn't my situation.
56:54
Speaker 1: I was checking off the list and UM, I don't
56:59
Speaker 1: have this one written down, but if I remember correctly. UM.
57:03
Speaker 1: One in one in three people that have been harassed
57:07
Speaker 1: and or stocked UM will will suffer from some sort
57:14
Speaker 1: of post traumatic stress going forward, which takes a lot
57:17
Speaker 1: of therapy and a lot of care to navigate and
57:21
Speaker 1: and get back to the healthiest version of you possible.
57:24
Speaker 1: These these things don't end with a restraining order. Yeah.
57:33
Speaker 1: So that's a UM, that's tough. There's not a response
57:41
Speaker 1: to that. I don't know what to say other than
57:43
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for sharing those, thanks for doing
57:45
Speaker 1: the research, and thanks for sharing those with me. UM.
57:47
Speaker 1: They do give a picture, a better idea of just
57:52
Speaker 1: how tough it is. And like you said, one thing
57:55
Speaker 1: that sticks with me in this and it happens all
57:57
Speaker 1: the time. But it's like we see a conclusion right
58:02
Speaker 1: with the restraining order. Yeah, Yet the it doesn't stop
58:06
Speaker 1: there for the human that's experienced like it's not like that,
58:08
Speaker 1: It's not like that brings healing. UM. So I want
58:13
Speaker 1: to talk about healing with you. But before we do,
58:15
Speaker 1: let's talk. Let's let's talk as much as you want
58:17
Speaker 1: about your story, and then I would love to lean
58:21
Speaker 1: that into anybody that's experiencing this as well to how
58:24
Speaker 1: you've gone about trying to heal and what has you
58:26
Speaker 1: found helpful in that? Absolutely? Um this happened. Jeez. I'm
58:32
Speaker 1: thirty three and we'll live in all of y'all, but
58:35
Speaker 1: I'm right behind you. Um I. This was a number
58:41
Speaker 1: of years ago, but I remember plane as day. It
58:45
Speaker 1: is one of the most vivid memories. I was having
58:47
Speaker 1: a New Year's Eve party and a guy walked in
58:49
Speaker 1: and it immediately was like, who is that? And it
58:56
Speaker 1: was very clear to see that he could be what
58:59
Speaker 1: you would probably stereotype as like the bad boy if
59:02
Speaker 1: this was just just horribly written romantic comedy. And I
59:08
Speaker 1: remember talking that night and there was just an energy
59:12
Speaker 1: about him that I think now I would recognize as
59:16
Speaker 1: run away. But at the time it was so captivating
59:20
Speaker 1: because I'm someone that loves to figure people out and
59:22
Speaker 1: the why behind who they are, and I could not
59:26
Speaker 1: read his energy and that captivated me. Um. I remember
59:31
Speaker 1: our first date was one that in hindsight, and this
59:36
Speaker 1: is gonna sound so silly, like you almost want to say, like, Hi,
59:39
Speaker 1: where how many red flags do you need before you know,
59:43
Speaker 1: before you get the hint. But the red flags went
59:46
Speaker 1: off immediately that this was going to be something pitole
59:54
Speaker 1: in my life. Unfortunately, I mistook that coming from a place. Um.
1:00:00
Speaker 1: I know you guys obviously watched the show, so you
1:00:03
Speaker 1: know that I talked a little bit about my sister's passing.
1:00:06
Speaker 1: This was all concurrent to when she was finding out
1:00:09
Speaker 1: she was pregnant and sick, so I was already in
1:00:13
Speaker 1: a very fragile position, and I think by opening up
1:00:19
Speaker 1: that side of what was going on in my life,
1:00:22
Speaker 1: it almost made it so much easier for him to
1:00:25
Speaker 1: step in and me to excuse some of the behaviors
1:00:28
Speaker 1: that I saw. Um our relationship could be summed up
1:00:33
Speaker 1: very quickly and that it was all a lie. Things
1:00:36
Speaker 1: were fabricated from the beginning. But it was so intense.
1:00:40
Speaker 1: We would fight, we would I hate to sit but
1:00:43
Speaker 1: have the best sex ever and make up and it
1:00:46
Speaker 1: was just this roller coaster of emotions and it was
1:00:49
Speaker 1: so addicting at the time to have these I don't
1:00:53
Speaker 1: want to say I was addicted to drama, but I think,
1:00:55
Speaker 1: if I'm being honest, I was heightened emotion um because
1:01:01
Speaker 1: it felt like something new that I had never experienced.
1:01:03
Speaker 1: And like I said, we see it in movies and stuff.
1:01:06
Speaker 1: That's like I'll do anything for you, but when it
1:01:10
Speaker 1: feels like that from the first date, that's probably not
1:01:14
Speaker 1: a healthy sign um. And it was not until and
1:01:18
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for this moment of clarity where I
1:01:22
Speaker 1: ended the relationship. It moved quickly. We got engaged four
1:01:26
Speaker 1: months later from the day we met. Four months later,
1:01:30
Speaker 1: I had a ring on my finger, and when my
1:01:34
Speaker 1: sister was diagnosed, I remember we were all waiting by
1:01:38
Speaker 1: the phone, and she obviously had her husband, and my
1:01:41
Speaker 1: dad was consoling my mom, and I was waiting there alone,
1:01:46
Speaker 1: and I thought, if something ever happens to me, I
1:01:51
Speaker 1: would never have his support. It would always be about
1:01:54
Speaker 1: him in some way. I remember he went out that
1:01:57
Speaker 1: night because he couldn't handle the emotional It's just too
1:02:01
Speaker 1: emotional for him to be there. And I made excuse
1:02:06
Speaker 1: after excuse, And then that moment really triggered my desire
1:02:10
Speaker 1: to end the relationship because I knew, at the core
1:02:14
Speaker 1: of a healthy relationship it should be a little bit boring.
1:02:17
Speaker 1: You know without question that that person is there for you.
1:02:21
Speaker 1: You don't have to question these things that I was
1:02:23
Speaker 1: questioning every single day. And it was not until after
1:02:27
Speaker 1: I ended the relationship that um things that maybe felt
1:02:32
Speaker 1: like they were crossing the line escalated almost overnight. And
1:02:36
Speaker 1: I want to be careful with my words because why
1:02:39
Speaker 1: I'm sharing my story. I don't want it to scare
1:02:42
Speaker 1: someone out of like coming forward or or walking away
1:02:46
Speaker 1: from an abusive situation, because you have the right to
1:02:49
Speaker 1: do that, and you should do that. UM. But in
1:02:52
Speaker 1: my particular instance, when he lost control of me, he
1:02:57
Speaker 1: completely lost control over that phil that he had tried
1:03:01
Speaker 1: so hard to keep up, and it escalated in ways
1:03:06
Speaker 1: that now I feel so disconnected to that it almost
1:03:10
Speaker 1: doesn't seem real. Um. There was burner phones, there was
1:03:14
Speaker 1: pictures of me at different places. UM. I lost my
1:03:18
Speaker 1: job because my coworkers started to feel unsafe because he
1:03:22
Speaker 1: was um taking pictures of me while I was at work,
1:03:25
Speaker 1: sending them to me, but not from him. Right, it's
1:03:28
Speaker 1: from these crazy numbers that I didn't know. UM. One
1:03:34
Speaker 1: night in particular where the state got involved, he came
1:03:38
Speaker 1: into my home and out of fear, I thought, take
1:03:40
Speaker 1: anything you want, but I'm getting the hell out. So
1:03:44
Speaker 1: you go in and I'm getting out. UM. And he
1:03:48
Speaker 1: did take items of mine, including and this isn't a
1:03:51
Speaker 1: fun thing to admit, but a laptop that he had
1:03:54
Speaker 1: purchased for me as a gift that had a picture
1:03:56
Speaker 1: that I mean, by Instagram standards, probably wasn't that embarrassing,
1:04:00
Speaker 1: but when it's sent to my father posted as his
1:04:03
Speaker 1: Facebook photo profile photo, UM that was supposed to be
1:04:09
Speaker 1: something so intimate between us, UM and used in a
1:04:13
Speaker 1: way to absolutely shame and embarrass me. And UM had
1:04:18
Speaker 1: a lot of things taken and used as leverage. If
1:04:22
Speaker 1: you talk to me, if you see me, you can
1:04:23
Speaker 1: have these back. UM. That is where UH legal got involved.
1:04:28
Speaker 1: And there's times where I'll be honest, there was physical
1:04:32
Speaker 1: things that happened that that should never have happened. But
1:04:35
Speaker 1: I'm very thankful it never got to a place of
1:04:39
Speaker 1: UM where I needed treatment of any sort for any
1:04:45
Speaker 1: like physical injury. But UM, it it's hard to just
1:04:49
Speaker 1: sum up how crazy it was. But I remember Thanksgiving night,
1:04:53
Speaker 1: my my aunt calling me and saying, I'm so sorry,
1:04:56
Speaker 1: but we don't feel safe, you know, when they little
1:04:59
Speaker 1: kids around. We don't feel safe of having you come
1:05:01
Speaker 1: to Thanksgiving because we don't know if he's tracking you,
1:05:05
Speaker 1: if he comes here, what's going to happen. And they
1:05:09
Speaker 1: had to call the police that night because he showed
1:05:11
Speaker 1: up UM and was lighting. I don't know what you
1:05:15
Speaker 1: call them, but if you get in a car accent,
1:05:16
Speaker 1: they're like flare things in your car to like help
1:05:19
Speaker 1: with traffic, UM and throwing those at their windows on
1:05:22
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving night, assuming that I was there. These aren't in
1:05:27
Speaker 1: any way loving actions to make me lose a career.
1:05:32
Speaker 1: I had to then move out of the home I
1:05:34
Speaker 1: was living in because my roommates no longer felt safe
1:05:37
Speaker 1: and rightfully so UM. I just want to say, like,
1:05:41
Speaker 1: there's nothing loving about these type of actions, but it
1:05:47
Speaker 1: is very almost easy when you're in this situation to
1:05:51
Speaker 1: make excuses because your emotions are still involved. I still
1:05:55
Speaker 1: cared about him. I still also carried a lot of
1:05:59
Speaker 1: um el like, oh, you know, when you're in that
1:06:02
Speaker 1: deep you go, God, maybe I did do something wrong
1:06:04
Speaker 1: and deserved this. That was the thing in my head
1:06:07
Speaker 1: all the time. Maybe I deserved this. Um. Unfortunately, UM,
1:06:13
Speaker 1: as you went to the legal process, I found out
1:06:15
Speaker 1: that this was not the first time he had done this. UM.
1:06:18
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly the extent. I could only read
1:06:21
Speaker 1: the court finalines of what he had done to someone
1:06:23
Speaker 1: in the past. UM, and that is what prompted me
1:06:26
Speaker 1: to continue because I will tell you I did not
1:06:29
Speaker 1: want to show up that day in court to testify
1:06:31
Speaker 1: against him. It was terrifying. I don't want to put
1:06:35
Speaker 1: down the legal system, but I didn't feel I enough
1:06:38
Speaker 1: measures were taken to make sure that even my arrival
1:06:42
Speaker 1: there was safe. UM, and I hope that that has
1:06:45
Speaker 1: changed in the years since. UM. It was the scariest
1:06:50
Speaker 1: by far day of my life sitting in court. UM.
1:06:53
Speaker 1: But I knew that if I wasn't going to take
1:06:57
Speaker 1: responsibility for what was happening to me, that there's all so,
1:07:00
Speaker 1: in my opinion, responsibility to what could potentially happen to
1:07:05
Speaker 1: the next person. Because it was very clear that his
1:07:07
Speaker 1: patterns were escalating. And now I'll take a big deep
1:07:12
Speaker 1: break because it was a lot. Well, I'm just I'm
1:07:14
Speaker 1: so I'm so thankful that you felt comfortable sharing that, UM,
1:07:18
Speaker 1: and I'm just incredibly sorry for everything that you went through. UM.
1:07:23
Speaker 1: If there was some you talked about their being red
1:07:26
Speaker 1: flags very early on, would you feel comfortable sharing what
1:07:30
Speaker 1: some of those are just so that other girls listening
1:07:33
Speaker 1: can look out for them in their own relationships or
1:07:36
Speaker 1: in their friends relationships. And I kind of want to
1:07:39
Speaker 1: respond to that that I want to make sure that
1:07:41
Speaker 1: this isn't it's not just females that go through this,
1:07:44
Speaker 1: it's it's both um and unfortunately, I think there's even
1:07:47
Speaker 1: more critique when a criticism when a man comes forward
1:07:51
Speaker 1: and says something because of the unfortunate stereotypes we have
1:07:55
Speaker 1: about masculinity. No, thank you for calling me out on that,
1:07:59
Speaker 1: But I I think for me, some of the major
1:08:02
Speaker 1: red flags that I can look back in hindsight is
1:08:07
Speaker 1: one the constant roller coaster. And it felt like we
1:08:11
Speaker 1: started on a little kittie roller coaster to one that
1:08:15
Speaker 1: you know is doing loop to loops and you're hanging
1:08:17
Speaker 1: upside down. And I know that seems like kind of
1:08:20
Speaker 1: a funny analogy, but it just kept escalating, and the
1:08:24
Speaker 1: things that I would have to excuse is, oh, this
1:08:26
Speaker 1: was just an argument kept becoming harder to excuse. UM intense,
1:08:33
Speaker 1: intense jealousy that isn't coming from a place of that
1:08:37
Speaker 1: where it's warranted. I think a little jealousy sometimes can
1:08:40
Speaker 1: even be healthy and a little fun in a relationship.
1:08:42
Speaker 1: If I'm dating someone and the girls looking at him,
1:08:46
Speaker 1: good for me, I feel you. I'm like, okay, you
1:08:50
Speaker 1: think he's cut good exactly. There's a massive difference between
1:08:54
Speaker 1: that and having, UM, just a pleasant conversation trying to
1:08:58
Speaker 1: be kind to a member of the deposite sex, and
1:09:02
Speaker 1: immediately seeing a switch where any loving affection has gone
1:09:06
Speaker 1: out the window and now you are going to be
1:09:09
Speaker 1: publicly ridiculed and shamed. Because control is just the major
1:09:15
Speaker 1: factor when it comes to harassment, stalking, and abuse, and
1:09:19
Speaker 1: if there's any semblance that they are losing control, things
1:09:22
Speaker 1: escalate very quickly. And jealousy for me, is a major
1:09:29
Speaker 1: red flag in a relationship like actually and I talked about,
1:09:32
Speaker 1: there's a difference between healthy amounts of just normal human
1:09:35
Speaker 1: jealousy and jealousy that becomes vindictive, becomes a reason in
1:09:42
Speaker 1: their eyes to publicly shame you for things that you
1:09:46
Speaker 1: you truly didn't do. Um. I pride myself on being very,
1:09:50
Speaker 1: very loyal, so cheating has never been an issue for me.
1:09:53
Speaker 1: Yet to be standing at a dinner party and I
1:09:57
Speaker 1: think I made reference. I mean, this is how really
1:10:00
Speaker 1: it was. Um. There was a guy that was from
1:10:02
Speaker 1: Russia there, and I said, oh, I'm from a town
1:10:05
Speaker 1: in Alaska and we have a pretty large Russian population,
1:10:10
Speaker 1: and my my town that I'm from mean soldier and Russian.
1:10:14
Speaker 1: That is not a flirtatious comment. In fact, it's a
1:10:16
Speaker 1: pretty awkward, weird dinner party conversation where you're just trying
1:10:21
Speaker 1: to get to know someone. But that briefest of interaction
1:10:25
Speaker 1: where the attention wasn't on him, became a reason for
1:10:28
Speaker 1: him to call me a whore, to call me a
1:10:31
Speaker 1: slut in front of people that I cared about and
1:10:33
Speaker 1: work colleagues, and to create a scene where I was
1:10:38
Speaker 1: in the wrong and people would because of how he
1:10:42
Speaker 1: portrayed it, would go, oh, I'm so sorry she did
1:10:46
Speaker 1: that to you. Gosh, you're right, that's terrible, And when
1:10:48
Speaker 1: you hear other people saying that, you go, man, maybe
1:10:52
Speaker 1: I really did something wrong. I don't think a Russian
1:10:55
Speaker 1: to English translation is, you know, going to be on
1:10:58
Speaker 1: top of someone's tinder foul is a way to make
1:11:01
Speaker 1: a move. But when you're in those scenarios, it's um
1:11:06
Speaker 1: it's the littlest things that can set them off. One
1:11:10
Speaker 1: huge one was he would get angry at me for
1:11:16
Speaker 1: I was his like escape. He could take everything out
1:11:19
Speaker 1: on me that had absolutely nothing to do with me.
1:11:22
Speaker 1: If he got a flat tire, I'd be left on
1:11:24
Speaker 1: a very busy city interstate because somehow it was my
1:11:29
Speaker 1: fault that he got a flat tire with driving his car.
1:11:32
Speaker 1: These those are completely irrational thoughts. No one can cause
1:11:36
Speaker 1: you to get a flat tire, it's the nail on
1:11:39
Speaker 1: the road that causes it. But when you are constantly
1:11:43
Speaker 1: put in a position where you are the source of
1:11:45
Speaker 1: their problems. UM, I hope people stop believing it a
1:11:51
Speaker 1: lot quicker than I did. But you believe somehow, gosh,
1:11:55
Speaker 1: I did do this, And I think now people call
1:11:58
Speaker 1: that geah slighting of where you question your own thought
1:12:04
Speaker 1: process or even just the reality of the situation around
1:12:08
Speaker 1: you because someone has absolutely convinced you and you've lost
1:12:13
Speaker 1: so much trust in yourself and your own ability to
1:12:15
Speaker 1: make healthy decisions that they must be correct and you
1:12:19
Speaker 1: must be absolutely that ship crazy and everyone else knows
1:12:24
Speaker 1: that you're that ship crazy, so they're right. And it
1:12:27
Speaker 1: just continued to escalate from from there. So then moving
1:12:34
Speaker 1: into the healing process, how, what steps or what does
1:12:43
Speaker 1: somebody do coming off of this, still living within it,
1:12:48
Speaker 1: to heal, to recover, to start knowing truth about themselves again?
1:12:53
Speaker 1: I think, do everything I didn't do. Um, this is
1:12:59
Speaker 1: not something I dealt with for quite some time. Like
1:13:02
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of new traumas
1:13:07
Speaker 1: going on with family matters that compounded at the time
1:13:10
Speaker 1: that quite frankly, that's where my emotional um space went to,
1:13:15
Speaker 1: and rightfully so. But there's so many resources that I
1:13:19
Speaker 1: wish I knew about then that I know about now.
1:13:23
Speaker 1: UM One that I spoke to Ben about and that
1:13:25
Speaker 1: I would speak to anybody about is the hotline dot org.
1:13:29
Speaker 1: They have just that website alone, whether you call the
1:13:33
Speaker 1: number or just look at the website, the amount of
1:13:36
Speaker 1: information and measures that they go to protect the safety
1:13:39
Speaker 1: of even someone typing in hotline dot org. The first
1:13:43
Speaker 1: thing it pops up is, if you feel like your
1:13:46
Speaker 1: phone could potentially be UM monitored, here's how to get
1:13:50
Speaker 1: to this website on your browsers safely so no one
1:13:52
Speaker 1: can look it up. I had never seen things like
1:13:55
Speaker 1: that um but also providing not only legal support no
1:14:00
Speaker 1: matter where they are, but therapy and advice and how
1:14:05
Speaker 1: and creating a safety plan for how to get out
1:14:08
Speaker 1: of that relationship as safely as possible, whether you live
1:14:10
Speaker 1: with them, have kids, et cetera. I think that is
1:14:13
Speaker 1: always something I'm going to recommend is the very first step,
1:14:17
Speaker 1: and the second is do not be afraid to talk
1:14:21
Speaker 1: to people. I have found that our hardest experiences in
1:14:25
Speaker 1: life either make us more empathetic to others going through it,
1:14:30
Speaker 1: or allow others an opportunity to help us get through it.
1:14:34
Speaker 1: And when you shut off those conversations that you're I
1:14:39
Speaker 1: don't know about you, guys, but if I have something
1:14:40
Speaker 1: weighing all my heart, if I don't talk about it,
1:14:43
Speaker 1: it's almost like the worst stomach ache. It's just sitting
1:14:46
Speaker 1: there and festering. And you don't need to do that
1:14:49
Speaker 1: to yourself. There's so many people that you can reach
1:14:53
Speaker 1: out to, and if you're not in a position where
1:14:56
Speaker 1: friends and family might not be local to you, or
1:14:59
Speaker 1: or you don't feel comfort rule, there's complete strangers that
1:15:02
Speaker 1: have been through this that are willing to rally like
1:15:05
Speaker 1: hell for you to get out of there safely and
1:15:08
Speaker 1: that you can have the therapy that you will need.
1:15:11
Speaker 1: There's no there's such a stigma about getting mental health help.
1:15:17
Speaker 1: But if you live in fear for X amount of
1:15:23
Speaker 1: months or years, that doesn't just go away. It's going
1:15:27
Speaker 1: to take that same amount of time, if not more,
1:15:31
Speaker 1: two retrain yourself to not live in fear and to
1:15:35
Speaker 1: have a safe, unbiased person to talk to about it.
1:15:40
Speaker 1: So I think making sure that you are getting out safely, UM,
1:15:44
Speaker 1: not making spontaneous decisions that could potentially put you in
1:15:47
Speaker 1: harm's way. Going to the hotline dot org. Allowing these
1:15:51
Speaker 1: people to rally for you and make sure that you
1:15:54
Speaker 1: and potential any children are are able to get out
1:15:57
Speaker 1: of there safely, and create a plan. Plan is a huge,
1:16:01
Speaker 1: a huge help, UM, because it's not everyone's reality where
1:16:06
Speaker 1: you can just wake up and say I'm getting the
1:16:08
Speaker 1: keys and I'm getting in the car and I'm going.
1:16:11
Speaker 1: That isn't always the safest bet depending on the type
1:16:14
Speaker 1: of abuser that is in your life. So having a
1:16:18
Speaker 1: plan and then making yourself and your mental health and
1:16:23
Speaker 1: recovery a priority through conversation with others, through the conversations
1:16:27
Speaker 1: with therapists, and to not be afraid, I mean this conversation,
1:16:31
Speaker 1: I can't tell you I was sweating bullets to have it, UM,
1:16:35
Speaker 1: but to not be afraid of maybe the one or
1:16:39
Speaker 1: two potential criticisms that can come from it, because you
1:16:44
Speaker 1: are so worthy of being heard and you're your words
1:16:50
Speaker 1: could help somebody else what a fantastic articulate advocate you are.
1:16:59
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm a rambler, so I don't know
1:17:01
Speaker 1: how articulate I was, but oh, incredibly at least. I
1:17:06
Speaker 1: I don't want to understate just how like how great
1:17:12
Speaker 1: you've been in the last forty hours for others, including
1:17:15
Speaker 1: this moment, including me. This isn't about me, I know that,
1:17:20
Speaker 1: but like in times of like not like feeling like
1:17:23
Speaker 1: I'm spending not knowing how this is happening and not
1:17:26
Speaker 1: knowing where to go with it and not knowing how
1:17:27
Speaker 1: to how to process it, You've been awesome and you're
1:17:32
Speaker 1: gonna make me cry now, And I got through that
1:17:34
Speaker 1: whole thing without crying. You know, we come on this
1:17:41
Speaker 1: thing and like it's not worth it's it's not worth
1:17:43
Speaker 1: any time or effort to do this and know that
1:17:47
Speaker 1: like other people are gonna experience pain because of the
1:17:49
Speaker 1: hour and a half that we take a week to
1:17:51
Speaker 1: just like talk about a crazy show. And every once
1:17:56
Speaker 1: in a while, like it hits and it hits hard,
1:17:59
Speaker 1: and you realize that your words really do matter. And
1:18:02
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being in this with
1:18:06
Speaker 1: me and also encouraging me yet keeping me knowing what
1:18:11
Speaker 1: I did wrong, UM, and how hard it was for
1:18:15
Speaker 1: me to hear that, yet how helpful it's been, UM,
1:18:18
Speaker 1: And thank you for coming on. Like, I don't want
1:18:19
Speaker 1: to underestimate just how much it took for you to
1:18:21
Speaker 1: even like show up today and to stalk talk to us,
1:18:24
Speaker 1: and to to sit in this and be here. And
1:18:27
Speaker 1: I guarantee you this, there's somebody outside of myself, even
1:18:31
Speaker 1: that myself included, that will hear you talk today and
1:18:35
Speaker 1: their life will be changed forever for the better. And
1:18:38
Speaker 1: like that is a weight that I want you to
1:18:40
Speaker 1: know and I wanted you to carry, and I want
1:18:42
Speaker 1: you to realize because I can't imagine anything anything better
1:18:46
Speaker 1: to spend our time doing that. And so at least,
1:18:47
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on, Thank you for being here.
1:18:50
Speaker 1: This has been great. I appreciate you. At least your
1:18:55
Speaker 1: approach in this situation has been so admirable. You've been honest,
1:18:59
Speaker 1: be kind, You say, hey, guys, you messed up. You
1:19:02
Speaker 1: hurt me and others. Here's what you went wrong. And
1:19:06
Speaker 1: I just really appreciate. I appreciate that. May add something
1:19:09
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you said that, UM. I think
1:19:15
Speaker 1: because both of you are public figures right. I just
1:19:17
Speaker 1: went back. I took my white dress and went back
1:19:20
Speaker 1: to my life as normal. But we are. And I
1:19:27
Speaker 1: said this to Ben yesterday when I was a little
1:19:29
Speaker 1: bit concerned for maybe where his emotional space was, is
1:19:33
Speaker 1: that I would just encourage people this kind of a
1:19:36
Speaker 1: two point thing that first of all, um, be careful
1:19:42
Speaker 1: when you are critiquing others that you I'm treading carefully
1:19:51
Speaker 1: because Ben, what you said's not okay, but you didn't
1:19:56
Speaker 1: do it with negative intent and that was clear to
1:19:59
Speaker 1: me from the beginning. And just be a little slower
1:20:03
Speaker 1: people to jump know and be able to differentiate if
1:20:07
Speaker 1: you are speaking from a place of trauma, if you're
1:20:10
Speaker 1: speaking from a place of emotion, take a beat before
1:20:14
Speaker 1: having that conversation with with someone so that you can
1:20:18
Speaker 1: come to them from a place of love and with
1:20:21
Speaker 1: your ears open and not attacking them for something that
1:20:24
Speaker 1: they might not just understand yet. And that really extends
1:20:28
Speaker 1: to social media that people giving commentary. And I told Ben,
1:20:33
Speaker 1: I won't come on here and give commentary about the
1:20:35
Speaker 1: topic because I don't think commentary on someone's trauma is
1:20:40
Speaker 1: any of our rights. That person can speak for themselves
1:20:44
Speaker 1: and them alone, because they're the only ones that know
1:20:47
Speaker 1: the depth of what's going on. And I've read comments
1:20:51
Speaker 1: online directed towards Ben, directed towards someone that I consider
1:20:56
Speaker 1: a friend from my time on the show, and it
1:20:59
Speaker 1: terrifies me, not only for that person's mental well being,
1:21:02
Speaker 1: but also for how paralyzing. If you can stop before
1:21:07
Speaker 1: you comment and think is this helpful? Because my god,
1:21:11
Speaker 1: if my twenty year old self had read these comments
1:21:14
Speaker 1: that are directed towards someone who rightfully um made steps
1:21:19
Speaker 1: to feel safe, how paralyzing that would have been for
1:21:24
Speaker 1: me in seeking that same help. Seeing that amount of
1:21:27
Speaker 1: criticism and shame and speculation is not acceptable because you're
1:21:33
Speaker 1: not in the situation. These are characters that you see
1:21:36
Speaker 1: on TV, and no we're not actors, but you see
1:21:39
Speaker 1: such a small fraction of our lives that you do
1:21:41
Speaker 1: not get to pass judgment on what length someone needs
1:21:44
Speaker 1: to go to feel safe, because we all have that
1:21:47
Speaker 1: right and your comments, not you guys specifically, obviously, but
1:21:52
Speaker 1: people that are commenting these things. I'm just terrified for
1:21:57
Speaker 1: someone reading it. Like I said, my itself would never
1:22:01
Speaker 1: have sought help if I thought I would get a
1:22:03
Speaker 1: fraction of the criticism that I'm seeing online. It's disgusting.
1:22:10
Speaker 1: Well in there, Elise. Thank you. UM, if you don't mind,
1:22:14
Speaker 1: we have a tradition that we're going to keep too, um,
1:22:18
Speaker 1: so follow our lead. This has been an almost famous podcast.
1:22:21
Speaker 1: It's a special podcast. Um, I've I don't know if
1:22:26
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed sitting in it. I've I'm glad I sat
1:22:30
Speaker 1: in it. I'll say that. Um. But with that, I've
1:22:35
Speaker 1: been been, I've been Ashley, and I've been a naughty
1:22:38
Speaker 1: Elise naughty. A thank you followed the Benn and Ashley
1:22:48
Speaker 1: I Almost Famous podcast on iHeart Radio or subscribe wherever
1:22:52
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts.