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The Battle Within: A Veteran's Struggle with Moral Injury and Sexual Trauma · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Today, we have a special guest on our podcast, tiffany Marchink.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Tiffany is an office administrator as well as a military veteran, with over 24 years of experience in the United States Army as well as the United States Army Reserves, and, just as a digression, the content may be distressing or triggering for individuals who had similar experiences or are sensitive to these topics.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Tiffany will be sharing her personal journey through the complexities of the military, focusing on her experiences with military sexual trauma, moral injury as well as post traumatic stress disorder.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Tiffany also is the host of the Medal of Honor podcast, where she also shares inspiring veteran stories of courage, strength and perseverance.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: I'm also joined with Dr Daniel Roberts, who is the president and CEO of Missions, as well as senior exec officer Jamie Pierre, who is also a retired military officer.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome, tiffany, we really appreciate you taking your time to join us today.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: How are you doing?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I can't complain.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Another day, another dollar.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Thanks, yeah, we're.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: We want to say thanks to Tiffany for you joining us today.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: It's great to have you.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Awesome Good to be here.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I feel like every time we have a guest we always ask them how they would define moral injury, Like it's a complex topic and I feel like the definitions kind of go based on the experiences.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: So how would you define moral injury based on your military experience?
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: So, um, moral injury, you're right, it is a fluid.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: There is a fluid definition.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: For me, a moral injury is when somebody experiences a moral injury, when something violates their belief system, whether it was done internally by the that individual or done externally by some sort of outside source, whether it be another person or another event.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: So, whatever the instance is, I think it's just when your belief system is violated.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: And what would you like to share about your moral injury?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: For me, one event caused, I guess, two different types of moral injury.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I was sexually assaulted by somebody that I knew in the military, that we had previously worked together and so that it was because at the time I was a reservist and he was at the duty.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: How to handle it was a very difficult process, so I hadn't.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: My moral injury is hit me hard because being sexually assaulted by somebody that I trusted greatly, not only were we both professional co-workers, but we had also developed a friendship and prior to his getting married we actually were in a relationship.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: So there was a pretty good level of trust to where I believed nothing was going to happen.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Nothing would happen because I trusted him enough.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: He was like a big brother to me.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: And then I was sexually assaulted and that changed the dynamic of the relationship.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I hope that's what you're asking, right?
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes.
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Well, so because we talked before, Tiffany, and I think one of the things that we had discussed was the event itself caused some moral injury, but then, oh yes, that was a part too Complex navigation of the system after you tried to report it.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: So a little bit more about that, because I think that is a lot of what causes moral injury, as well as just the way that it gets mishandled.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely so.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: The first part of the moral injury was from the individual, the actual event occurring, after the event occurred, trying to navigate it by myself, because it's such a sensitive topic, it's not something that you want to just talk to anybody about there was a fear of judgment, but once I had gone to the VA emergency room because a good friend of mine worked in the ER and so I told her what happened and that triggered the process of doing an investigation the investigation took two and a half three years, so I had already retired before it happened.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: And that's the second part that you're referring to.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: For the moral injury, I gave two and a half decades of my life to an organization that I feel like ended up betraying me.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And I feel like it was a betrayal because of the different rules set in place and policies set in place, because the moral injury, the harassment or sexual assault, occurred on a day that was not a duty day for me.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: I was not able to take advantage of getting some of the help that's a little bit more readily available for had I been on active duty.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: So there was that part, and so I was navigating this whole instance on my own, and that made it even more difficult because I didn't have anybody standing in my corner, so that took the blow pretty hard.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Monta and I talked last week.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: For those that don't understand these different nuances of military you know, active duty versus reserves, versus national security, and I think it's worth clarifying and I know you know this, tiffany, but just for our listeners that may not realize when you're on active duty, you are afforded all the resources of the military 24 seven, 365 days a year.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: But when you're in a reserve or national guard capacity, if you're not on, you know, doing a 24 seven, then those resources are technically only afforded to you during the time that you are doing your two week.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: You know two days a month or two weeks out of the year, and so in this instance, what I just want to confirm what you're saying is, because the event occurred, even though it was with another military member, you were not on drill status, meaning you weren't doing your two days of the month or two weeks out of the year, and so some of the different resources that military members have, like sexual assault counseling or victim advocate counseling or any of that stuff, you technically weren't able to access those resources just because of the raw you were.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: It happened on the wrong day, right.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Is that, essentially, that's absolutely so.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: It's, and with that clarification, it doesn't matter the status of the perpetrator, because he was at the beauty.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: The status of the perpetrator doesn't matter is the status of the victim, because it's the victim seeking out some sort of justice.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: And so I was not.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I was that.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: So that's what made, that's a part of what made that process so difficult is that, you know, for him it happened on the on the right day of the week, for me it didn't.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, that's that's a lot of what hit me hard to.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: And even I think we I think I shared this with you guys when we were talking before the time we were retired, I was talking to the Army Reserve Surgeon General and said, hey, look, here's my, my issue, here's what happened.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I just want a line of duty, and a line of duty is just basically a note from your command saying, yes, an incident did occur.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: You didn't have to get into details, it's just, yes, some sort of sort of sharp complaint, sharp being the sexual harassment and rape prevention program that army has.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: And when I and when I talked to him that the frustrating part ended up, when it boiled down to it, I said, I asked him.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I said now this happened on a Tuesday.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: For me it was a non duty day, I wasn't on any army status that day, and so I don't get to take advantage of these benefits.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: What if I was so distraught because of the events of that day that I went to the bar, got drunk, got in my car and drove back home getting pulled over for a DUI?
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: And what would happen to me then?
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I would be arrested or not arrest, whatever the process is for that, and then I would be kicked out of the military because it would be conduct on becoming of an NCO.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Why is my, my personal conduct going to be held against me when doing something?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: But when something is done to me, it doesn't matter.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of what I was left with.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: And that, I think, is really important, you know, because everybody's got a story like that, not that, not to minimize your story at all, but everybody's got a story where you know I thought the organization stood for these things.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: You know, because of a technicality or an old policy that hasn't been looked at in decades.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: I can't get help that other people can get.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: I just can't get it because of this technicality, and that is one of the things that I think you know.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: As we are doing the work that we're doing with missions, one of the things that we're trying to highlight is how institutions and organizations and policies and regulations can also cause moral injury when we don't have somebody aware of what moral injury is telling somebody no, because this is what it says in black and white.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: There's got to be some sort of sensitivity in that built in and people need to be aware that they may.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: This person coming to you may not be comfortable that be comfortable telling you the whole story, but you've got to be aware enough to say, okay, before I tell them, no, let's make sure that we are being careful with this so that we don't end up causing even further distress by our lack of awareness of the full situation.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, god's with trauma has a hard time talking about it, let alone remembering exactly what happened, and it's just that is very injurious, you know speaking of moral injury.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: So absolutely Sounds like that.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: It's not like.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: It's not like.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: It's not like good and it can happen to men or women, but it's not like the guy Said, okay, I'm alone in the room with this girl.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Before I do what I want to do, let me look up this regulation on my phone, make sure I can do it and get away with it.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't happen.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: So, yes, you're, you are correct.
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: So so, tiffany, in the in the process, from the time you first reported it till Say the investigation was completed, how many times do you think you told your story?
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, how many different people.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Well, I told it to Jag multiple times and I think part of the I will clarify this too part of the problem is I was in South Carolina when it happened and and so I talked to the VA in the emergency room.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: A social worker came into the emergency room, the VA police came in there and Then, after the VA police Talked to me for a little bit, he said, okay, it didn't happen on our property or any federal property.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: You need to go to local police.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: So now I had to tell it again, just, and I think about a week went by before I actually reported it.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: And then I talked to CID, the criminal investigation Division, the people that do the investigations in the army.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: So I had to tell it then.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: And then I got a job, a contracting job, at Fort Knox, kentucky.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: So the Jag at Fort Knox ended up handling it.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So I had to tell it again and At that point I had already shared it several times and I think what made it and Not to get To graphic and I won't, but what was when I was talking to Jag they said, okay, we need to know what part of him touched what part of you and how much.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: And the Jag officer started labeling like the official names of different parts of your body and Said and said so what part of you was touched?
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, like my anxiety, my blood pressure probably are not blood pressure, my heart rate probably like doubled instantly.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Because, just like you're not thinking about a regulation during something happening, you're also not thinking, okay, how much of what's touching, how much of what you just that's not on your mind.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: You're what's on your mind is.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be here, I don't want this to happen.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I wanted to stop.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: So I told my story, really, I think, while the investigation was going on.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I only told it to the people I need to.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: And Then, when I heard that you were doing a Like a research project, you and I talked about it Because I wanted to participate in it for the sake of helping others.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: But then there was a point where I was like, okay, I got to stop.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I can't, I can't finish this story.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: So no, yeah so I mean it sounded like a dozen times just under few, you know the few as you told about what was the emotional effect of telling the story over.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: It was like it is with many people who have a try, any kind of trauma or or PTSD.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: You're reliving it every single time.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: So every time I got a phone call from Jag saying, hey, we need you to come over here, I was like here we go again.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: They're gonna ask some sort of question.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Now I I know this is gets into another little bit of like army terminology, but at one point when I had gone over to Jag, I remember asking the Jag and I got handed off from one Jag officer to another because, by the way, they're active duty and they PCS, so the case gets handled to the next, handed to the next person.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: At one point I asked one of the Jag officers Look, when are we gonna get a decision?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I feel like this is black and white, cut and dry.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I, you know, show, because I had.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: I had written communication between myself and the perpetrator of the day after in writing from messaging.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: So to me that was black and white evidence of what happened.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And yet here it is.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I think at that point it was probably a year and a half later and it was still going on, and so I said what I said when is this gonna end?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, when was it gonna end?
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: And so I said what I said when is this gonna end?
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: I mean when?
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Why can't we just do a court martial, send them on his way, and everybody's happy?
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And he turned around at me, slapped his manila forward or down onto the conference table and said look, you need to understand.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: We are dealing with a senior NCOs career.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: And it took every little bit of strength to not cry and my jaw had to have dropped to the ground and I said well, you do realize that we are dealing with a junior NCOs Livelihood, not my career, my livelihood, my well-being.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: So I'm not no offense, but I'm not, I'm not concerned about his career.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: He made a decision.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: It impacted me forever.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I've been telling the story over and over why, why can't we just move on?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And but?
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So they ended up doing, instead of doing, a court martial which, for those who don't know, a court martial carries criminal offenses with it, whereas an administrative board, which is what we ended up doing An administrative board doesn't have any criminal activity attached to it.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Rather, it's just the army saying what are we going to do with this individual based upon their records, this event that happened?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And then they make it, then they make a decision on what they're going to do with the perpetrator.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: So that's what they ended up doing, and that really increased my frustration Towards the army, because a sexual assault, like drinking and driving, is one of those things that's preached a zero tolerance.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: We do not tolerate this kind of activity.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: So if you can kick somebody out of the military because of an activity like that happening, why are we taking so long to figure this out?
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So, yes, well, and there's moral injury number three or four right, mm-hmm, yep it really like when I that where the Jag office was located was just a like five minute walk from from the office where I worked and I tears just ran down my face because I it.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Basically what that Jag officer was telling me is A person's career is more important than another person's well-being.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: So we don't care really much about the person's well-being, so we don't care really if it's a zero tolerance, we're just concerned about a senior leaders career.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: So that that was just.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: That was just a slap in the face and that made me feel like a number.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: I'm already isolated, but now I'm isolated and feeling like a number.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: So, if you don't mind me asking Tiffany, how did things go for you after that experience like?
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: Because a lot of times physiological ramifications of these kinds of, you know, emotional and mental traumas starts creating like physical Things or lower work performance or stuff like that Did, did you?
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: How did things go for you after this compared to before?
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's great.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: So I was the last six years of being in the army.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: I was an instructor, I was a great instructor, I was outstanding whatever good word you want to put there.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I could do that, I could do that job and do it well.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: And then I became A dirt bag of a soldier, I guess is the best way to put it.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Then I really was not showing up in on time and many times I wouldn't show up at all to the drill, that weekend duty as a reservist.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I just wouldn't even show up and I just was they.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I many times I was there physically but I was gone mentally and emotionally.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Because it just, I think just to even step back a little bit further, when this occurred I was homeless for 13 months, so I had been living out of my car or out of a storage unit and then I got my VA claim back.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I got an answer to what my percentage was going to be and got a.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: So that's when I started staying at an extended stay hotel and that extended stay hotel is where the event occurred.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: So when I so when I was homeless, I would go to my, my command.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I would go to my commander and sergeant major and say hey look, I need employment.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: There's a lot within this unit that needs to be done, so it's a win-win situation.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: I work full time for a couple days or a couple weeks to Accomplish what you need done, and I get paid for it and everybody's happy.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And the response was well, it doesn't work like that.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: And I said actually it does.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: And so there was already that resistance, just from being homeless, and I was like I'm not going to be homeless.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I was already that resistance just from being homeless.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And then, when the event occurred, just out of a courtesy, I sent an email to my commander and sergeant major and said, hey, fyi, if I come out on the blotter report, it's because I something was done to me, not because I did something wrong, and the blotter report is just basically a report of, you know, people who have have some sort of action that they're involved in, and so I just I didn't know how that was going to work.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to make sure that I gave them a heads up and said, hey, I can't talk about it right now, but if my name comes up, I was the victim of something.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Not, I didn't do anything wrong, and Both times being homeless, as well as the sexual assault.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Both times I was told All right, well, if you need anything, let me know, let us know.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I let them know.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: When I was homeless and I not only let them know I said hey, I'm coming to you with a solution, I'm going to help you, the unit, and the unit is going to help me by paying me for those for that work.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: And it never happened.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Then, with the sexual assault, you know, I let them know and gave them a heads up and all I got was sorry to hear that, let us know if we can do anything.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: And the times that I was late or didn't show up, I never got a phone call saying hey, you know, this weekend is our drill, right, you know it's our battle assembly.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Where are you?
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: You're not here.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: We didn't, you didn't have an excused absence.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: So no phone call, no, nothing.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And so I became the bad soldier that just we don't know if they're going to show up at all.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: So I went from being an outstanding instructor to yeah, we can't depend on her.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: So it was just a continuous failure on me or on the unit, but towards me.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Right, they said we let us know how we can help, but that was more of just to say To brush me off.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, thank you for answering my questions, montaid.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Did you have another question?
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say obviously, after all these disappointments, you feel like you actually did have support from someone, maybe like family members and whatnot.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Not from family.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: My relationships at home with my family were not.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was not like ill will, but sharing personal things like that, like asexual assault, was not a thing.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: It was not a thing that would happen.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: So I didn't feel even comfortable telling them about it.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I did start getting counseling at the VA because I was already service connected over 30%.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I was able to, while I didn't and I was never given the diagnosis of PTSD as it relates to being service connected or disabled.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I did have the diagnosis, but again because they didn't deem it appropriate, because it didn't happen on the Army's time.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: It didn't happen according to the Army.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: So wait, did I answer what you're asking?
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: You did, Okay.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just so much.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: I think, family, any friends or any other coworkers that.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: No, I mean when I say I was isolated, I was isolated and that's what was hard.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I knew I needed to tell somebody and talk about it.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: But it's just, who do I trust?
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: And Dan was one of those people that I did tell early on, just saying, hey look, this happened.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: It's somebody that we both know because we both had worked with the individual at some point in time in our careers.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: So I had at the time I think I just knew of Dan and had seen him in a conference that we both attended, but of the interaction that I had had with Dan I felt like there was enough of a relationship where I could trust him and tell him this.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: But even though I could trust him, there was still fear in talking about it, because I'm talking to a fellow service member, someone that is senior to me.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think he's going to do anything of reprisal towards me, but I just don't know.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: It's that fear of judgment.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: But after getting counseling and hearing other people either hint around that they experienced a sexual assault or know somebody who had experienced one, made me kind of like an open door for me to share it, because I believe that the more you tell your story, the more healing comes to me sharing that story.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: So I kind of and even I was always very vague, but at least saying hey, I experienced something too made me more comfortable, and that I mean I don't think that that would have.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I mean I was surprised at how that happened.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: But somebody else, another female that I met through Dan, who was a Navy veteran, who had also experienced a sexual assault, so she and I had connected and we were able to talk about it and she was further along in her journey than I was.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: So talking to somebody who had been there, done that really helped, because there wasn't going to be any judgment, there was the compassion because of knowing what it's like to go through something like that.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: So that's part of the reason why I even started the podcast that I did is that to provide that, provide a platform for people to share that story so they can get healing and let other people know who's listening hey, you're not the only one so that kind of give them the confidence to reach out and ask for help when needed.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I was definitely the purpose of this podcast as well.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Also, dan, I wanted to ask when Tiffany shared this with you obviously you knew the individual as well how did you feel after that?
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: So one of the difficult things I think of being a provider and this is, and I say provider in a general sense, or just being a listener to a story is the difficulty of suspending judgment, because here you have a senior NCO that you know and now I didn't know the guy.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: Well, you get me wrong, but there's a certain in the military, there's a certain narrative built up around senior non-commissioned officers and commissioned officers as being ethical leaders and moral and all that kind of stuff, without any other kind of information.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: It's natural to believe that our leaders are good people and so on and so forth.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: And then you hear this story that's very counter to that and it creates this dissonance cognitive and emotional dissonance of which one's telling the truth and part of it is like why would this senior NCO, with all these years to lose, do something like this?
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: And so you have some internal conflict and emotional and cognitive dissonance of is the story true?
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: Well, what does that make this person?
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: And blah, blah, blah.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: And that can be difficult.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: Now my approach is I believe the victim, the survivor, right.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: I believe the survivor because I have no other reason to suspect otherwise and I haven't talked to many other women who have gone through things that this stuff really does happen.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: And I have learned to believe right.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: And the reason why I bring that up as being important is because, as Tiffany talked about the JAG officer, you know that lawyer who had that reaction.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: He obviously has not trained himself to believe and learn to believe.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: His reaction was probably a little bit unthinking, right, it certainly was cold and uncaring.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: But I think if he had the chance to do it again, if he had the chance to think about it, if he had worked with many other survivors, he probably would have had a very different reaction.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: But our reactions are trained by our experiences and so, until you begin, hearing those things.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: You know, the narratives that are out there commonly are that survivors lie, they're making stuff up to get out of people.
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: All this kind of stuff, most stories aren't true.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: All that stuff, that's all a bunch of nonsense.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: But until you're faced with, you know, an actual survivor with that experience, you have to really, you really have to, you know, deal with your own internal conflict.
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: Now we'll say, by the time I heard Tiffany's story, thank God, I had grown a lot as a person and I was able to believe her without any troubles, even though I knew this person was a senior NCO, because I know that these things happen, and so I know Tiffany to be a very honest person who actually had no reason to make something up, especially to you know, the idea that a person would put themselves through three years of traumatization, telling a false story to get at somebody who's not even their chain of command is just total bullshit.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: There's no other word for it.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: That's total BS.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: But that's what's out there, right?
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: So, so, so one of the important things from this you didn't really ask this, but it's just as I'm rambling on is that it really is important.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: That's why podcasts like this are so important, because we need to really, you know, put it right in front of people and challenge them with the truth of these kind of stories so that they can begin to learn and begin to see things and maybe question some of the narratives they might have had before about people.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And I even add to that prior to you know, just to like even back up what he's saying, with the exception of that event happening on paper, he was an outstanding service member, an outstanding NCO.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: You know was getting ready to be the highest ranked and listed rank in the Army.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: So obviously he has had a good career.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: So that was even a fear of mine.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: That great little me that has not made it through the ranks like he did is now going to accuse somebody that looks great on paper.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: And so there was that.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: You know I was.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I did have that fear of great this thing going to come back and bite me in the butt because I accused somebody who has a good career of doing something that he potentially didn't do, even though he did do it.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm glad you said that, tiffany, because in my experience with watching these things play out, I was a human resource officer and so, by virtue of my position, I was often aware of senior leader personnel actions that were happening, whether it was disciplinary or administrative, and I saw with my own eyes on a couple of different occasions where, because somebody did hold such a high ranking position and there are so few of those people, you know, there's a lot of lower enlisted, there's very few senior leaders, and so when, for example, a unit's getting ready to deploy, there's a lot of requirements that unit has to me in order to deploy, and one of those is that they've got to have their leadership positions filled.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Well, if there's only a few of these people running around and this person gets removed, that unit is now considered combat ineffective and can't deploy, and so this is not a justification on a human level at all.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: But it's why, you know, the military, they get like that jag slam down the paper, you know, probably getting a lot of pressure, like before we remove this person who's going to make our unit non deployable, you know.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: And that stuff frustrated me to no end because I'm like they shouldn't be anywhere near soldiers.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: I don't care if the unit's not deployable, but do you like?
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: It's such a rock and a hard play situation.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: But I also think and this is just Jamie peer talking is some of these people know this and they take advantage of well, I'm untouchable, I can do no wrong.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: You see all the metals on my chest and who she she's.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: She's even been homeless recently.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: Of course she would make this up to get attention or whatever.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: And they, they take advantage of the situation and victim you know, and they're looking for these people who maybe other people wouldn't believe, not that they should have done that to you, but do you see what I'm saying?
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: And I've seen it a couple of different times they let the senior person or the more important person off the hook and then they moved the person who was the victim or just marginalized and dismissed them.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: And I think I'm just saying I think that's part of the the perpetrators MO is that they are reasonably sure they're going to be able to get away with it, or they wouldn't do it.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: And yeah, and on that note of being deemed the troubled soldier or no, not the last thing close to being a stellar soldier I did not get a retirement award.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: When I retired from the military and my Sergeant Major and I were talking on the phone, he asked me if I wanted a retirement in CEOER.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I said not really, he's.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: He's like okay, I didn't think so.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: I said, well, what about the retirement award, though?
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, I've only known you for two years.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: I'm like right, but I served for 24.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: So well, I don't know what to write up because I don't know you that well.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: I said, well, tell you what.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I will send you an email.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I sent him every single NCOER that I had, from the moment of getting promoted to E5.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: And I also was at the 638, the form for an award.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I sent him a copy of those as well, so he could see what I got awarded and why I was awarded that particular thing, and then my performance reviews.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: So, to me, I included all of those in an email, and I also pulled some things out that I felt like stuck out, not just for that one award, but maybe, maybe a behavior or performance that lasted through my career.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: So I gave him the ammunition and I did not get anything.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I filed an IG complaint and I got a certificate of appreciation.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: So that was my award with an IG complaint.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: And from my perspective as a military leader, you're exactly right.
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: Your retirement award is not based on your current duty station, it's based on your entire career.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: So you have to calculate all that in there.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: And unless a person really did something that deserves a disarmament discharge or something like that, I mean some major legal action against them, I would never look at the person I have.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: I only known them for two years.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: You're exactly right.
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: Even if you've known them for four or five, you're still not doing a retirement award based on that four or five.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: You're doing it based on their entire career.
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: So that's very unjust and that's you know.
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: We get into institutional trauma and organizational trauma.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: That's a good example of those kind of things where the institution or the organization betrayed you because of their prejudicial opinion of you or lack of, or whatever it is like could be a hundred different reasons, but but but that's an institutional piece where we often talk about moral injury as being about a person.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: You know, but we're, we're opening that lens a lot more and saying, well, moral injury can come from an institution, an organization, a group.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: You know a lot of different, a lot of different things, and so you're bringing up a lot of really, really important issues that you know should give the folks that listen to this podcast a whole lot to think about and talk about, certainly fodder for future, future episodes on some of these these each thing.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: So I appreciate that.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: And I was thinking about too.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I meant when, jamie, when you were talking about seeing the process happen because of working in human resources, I think part of the the Jack officer, the attorney that was handling the case was a captain, so a junior officer, and so with officers, you have junior officers, senior officers and then general officers, and the command that the this soldier belonged to was a two star command or one star two star command.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: So this captain is interacting with a general officer, so I imagine he's having pressure to deal with something that's dealing with somebody who is greatly senior to him and feeling that pressure as well.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: But you know, I think when the day that might, I guess to distinguish the day that my sexual assault happened yes, that hurt, yes, that was hard.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: I was getting counseling.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I had a couple of friends that I could talk to, but an organizational trauma who do you talk to?
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: If you talk to a fellow service member, they're going to say, yep, that's the military for you or yep, that's the federal government for you.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: We'll just say, yeah, I hope you don't expect anything more from the army, the DOD, the federal government, whatever it is, because I think we see a lot of injustices happening, but we just chalk it up to the fact that that's just the way things are done.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: So towards the end of my career, yes, I did not show up to battle assemblies Intentionally.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: I did not show up because I was so broken and so undone that I just couldn't show up.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: So I can see being looked at by that Sergeant Major as, look, you need to get your stuff together.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: But they still, even though I had that negative impression now, I still never got that phone call.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: When somebody doesn't show up to formation, once that formation is over, you're calling that person saying, hey, are you good?
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Is everything okay?
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: Are you on your way, something?
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: And I didn't even get that ever.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: Right, I need to be coming to check on you and make sure you haven't fallen down.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, exactly Because, with suicide being a big issue in the military and my leadership knew that I was homeless, my leadership knew that I had experienced a sexual assault and now I'm not showing up to work.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I could be a prime candidate for attempting suicide and yet I didn't.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: I mean it just yeah.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: So the injustice, I think.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say that probably the organizational or institutional trauma was probably worse than one afternoon event, because the organizational or institutional trauma continued to happen over and over again in different forms.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I was like I I know that we're getting close on time, but I think this is such an important point to make is, you know, we want to say organizational trauma, institutional trauma, right, but what are those things made out of?
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: They're made out of people.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: They're made out of people who are put into leadership positions by other leaders.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: And this is one of the problems is that, you know, it's not always the right people who are given this authority and given this power and they're making really bad decisions and they have no concept of what they're doing and they certainly don't know the implications of what they're doing on the psyche of the people who are looking up to them as the organization.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: And that's why a lot of the work that Dan and I want to do, in addition to the research and the support network for the service women is leader education.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: Like we should be definitely talking to the JAG school about moral injury and you know, these things take forever and we just kind of keep soldiers in the dark about what's going on.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden there's an outcome and there's no explanation of how they came to that outcome, and we just leave people high and dry to sort it out on their own and they're not doing it because there's no resources to do it with and you know, so there's just.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: This is such a deep and complex situation.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: But before I let Monte ask the last question for today, tiffany, we're probably just going to have to have you back, right, but wait there's more.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: I want to say to you because I don't think we hear this enough you know I've even felt like a dirtbag at dirtbag at different points in my career and you know I made it to a senior level.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: Like everything that you did as a response to your trauma I think is completely valid and you know, like you shouldn't have to get it together for an organization who has marginalized and dismissed you and doesn't even call you if you don't show up.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: Like that's not a safe place to be, especially after a trauma.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: So the fact that you weren't able to comport yourself or do what you were supposed to do as a good soldier, that hadn't been done to you.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: So your body was rejecting the idea of continuing to put yourself in that situation and it just wouldn't let you go, wouldn't let you get out of bed or it wouldn't let you get in your car.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: You know, I totally understand that and I just want you to know, like I think that was probably a healthy response, a white-skinned experience, that you didn't want to be grounded anymore and I'm so sorry that that happened.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: I'm not responsible for the military anymore, but I'm still the fact that you ever, for a minute, were left to feel like you were less than or anything.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: I just want to tell you, like we, you are awesome and we all think that, and we appreciate your willingness to come on, and obviously you've done a lot of work, but I think we all have a lot of work to do, and that's why having podcasts like this and people that are willing to come on and share their stories is awesome, and so just I just want to say thanks.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that, and since you said the word awesome, I got to say this is another point of uh-oh.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: You've hold it closer to your face.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, my face here, let's make it my face.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you what does it say oh, I just decorated my my self and it's hot too.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: It says sometimes you forget that you're awesome, so this is your reminder.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I bought this cup from Amazon.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: I saw somebody you know I was talking to somebody that I've built a good relationship with who was on the podcast early on, and she kept that's one thing that she would keep on saying to me you're like oh, tiffany, you're awesome.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I'm like, please, whatever, because I'm putting myself down.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: But she kept saying no, look.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: And so when I saw this mug, it reminded me of her and I, when I, when it arrived, I took a picture of it and sent her a text message and she's like yes, that you better drink out of that every day, yeah, so yeah, it's great.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: I'll shut up because I can ramble pretty good.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: All right, Monty, you got one more question.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: One more question.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: So with that, what changes would you like to see in the military policies or the support system to address this issue?
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: You should have asked that question first.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding, so we would have had more time.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: As it relates to sexual assault, the army and maybe even I think it's DOD wide for all branches they have made some improvements.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: One example of that improvement is when a sexual assault report comes to a unit, that commander is not the one that handles the case because, like Dan was saying earlier, you have a senior NCO and so if I'm a one star, two star general and I have an E8 that's under my command, I'm gonna stand by my people, because that's what we do we stand by our people.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: So having a third party view the incident and work towards making a decision I think does help.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: So it helps eliminate any biases that can exist, which do exist.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: So that's good.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: As it relates to sexual assault, one thing that another thing with that too is, I think, when it comes to being a full timer on active duty or a part timer in the reserves, when something happens to an individual like what happened to me, I think that should be standard across the board, that I have that access of resources to take advantage of as I navigate through what I'm experiencing or going through.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: I mean I had even talked to the USARC, the reserve command, the top headquarters, they're on lawyer, and she was even looking for loopholes and couldn't find any loopholes and except one having an attorney that was there as a neutral party to like so.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: So that way if the attorneys got went overboard or with anything that he'd be like, hey, tiffany, do you need a break?
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately he wasn't there for everything, like an attorney slapping a folder down, saying a person's career is more important than another's NCO's wellbeing.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: So I think so.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I guess with that I think we can tighten up on the policy of how sexual assaults are handled and handling them with a little bit more sensitivity.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Also, and that's the first one, the second one is with the reserve.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: I know that some, I know money is always the reason why we can't do a lot of stuff.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: So I think finding those things like a sexual assault that happens to a reservist when they're not on duty, because I still hold an ID card that maybe I can still get care for that through the Army and have it on my record indicating that something actually did happen.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: I think the third thing is like the education.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Like you mentioned earlier, I as an instructor, so what I taught was the religious affairs NCO.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I taught the basic level of that course.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: We even cover the topic of what kind of sexual assault.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: What's an official report, what's not, and what.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: If somebody who experienced a sexual assault comes to your office, how am I allowed to interact, or am I?
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Is it?
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Do I have to keep it confidential?
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Do I have to report it?
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: And so I think understanding your roles, no matter what your job is, I think does help, so that that captain, who was an attorney, can feel the stress coming from higher ups, demanding that this be resolved quickly as well as meeting the need of the victim, no matter what their rank is.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if I'm a private and I've been in the Army for six months, or if I'm a colonel and I've been in for like three or four decades.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter when it comes to a sexual assault, each person should be treated fairly, fairly and justly.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: I'm going to stop right there, because I'm a rambler.
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: I agree, and I think anybody who signs their name on the line for their country because at any moment we could, you could have gotten called up and put your life on the line.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: The least we can do is have your back when you're faced with such a catastrophic event.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's, that's very key.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: It is you know, you you're.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: We say you train like you fight, all right.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: So if we train like we fight, are we also going to treat people in the garrison, or are we going to treat people back home the way we want to treat them in a combat zone?
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: So if this is how you're going to treat me, when we're not even in combat and nothing is pressing going on, how what's going to happen?
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: If my life is literally on the line in a combat zone, then what?
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Because if I be, I feel I feel like I'd be left for dead, you know, honestly.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: So anyway, I'm glad that part of your life's behind you, oh yeah.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: And when you asked about or I think it was either asked about who I had to talk to, I think now I still have triggers that will catch me when I'm not thinking about it, or or it might be something completely new that I would have no idea that.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: It would, you know, be a trigger Dang it, my brain is all over the place.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, but I, like me now I think I am more willing to share my story again for my own benefit as well as the benefit of the person that I'm talking to.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: So I don't I don't get too detailed with anybody, really, just because I don't want to make the other person uncomfortable.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: So that's my two cents.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: Well, tiffany, we really appreciate having you on today and you know it's a.
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: I understand that.
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: You know it can be cathartic to to tell your story, especially with the idea that could help other people, but I also know it still brings up all the crap that you know.
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: All those feelings, all those emotions, all the you know.
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: So so I hope that you spend the rest of your afternoon evening doing some self care and some and some help there and you know if there's anything we can do to help, please, please, let us know.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: But I appreciate that you coming on and sharing your story, talking about all that you shared today, is Super important for people to think about care providers, other other veterans.
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: You know there's a lot to unpack and, as Jamie said, you know it'd be great to have you on again, maybe to zero in on some of those specific pieces.
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: But again, thanks so much for taking the time to be with us.
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: It was really a joy to have you.
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: We appreciate it.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: And, just as an FYI on the side with that, my heart rate.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: I've been looking at my watch the whole time.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Sat, anywhere between 126 and 146, got to 150.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm not moving, I'm just sitting here, but so the stress is still there and the frustration is still there, but I'm willing to let my heart rate get high for the sake of saying hey look, I've been through it.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: I know it's hard.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: I will walk this walk with you, but we both have to walk.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: I can't do it for you.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: Ante, do you have any final comment?
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: No, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today, Tiffany.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: No problem, let's do it again sometime.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: And, for our listeners, don't forget to check out our website at MISNSorg missionsorg and sign up for our newsletter so you can stay up to date with everything we've got going on as an organization.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much for your time today, Tiffany.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: We'll talk about it.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely Bye, bye.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Bye, bye.