Latest / Where We Rise / 11 | "The Stories We Tell... Matter" | Growing from Pain

Transcript

11 | "The Stories We Tell... Matter" | Growing from Pain · Where We Rise

• 0:01
  Khalila McCoy: Hey, I'm Khalila McCoy, and you're listening to the podcast that helps you see the power in your own story.
• 0:08
  Khalila McCoy: This is where we rise.
• 0:13
  Khalila McCoy: Hi everyone.
• 0:14
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you for joining me this week.
• 0:15
  Khalila McCoy: Sharing new voices and new stories with you is one of my favorite things to do.
• 0:20
  Khalila McCoy: Today, I would like to introduce you to Ann.
• 0:24
  Khalila McCoy: Ann is a beautiful person, and I truly enjoyed our conversation.
• 0:29
  Khalila McCoy: Her story reminded me just how layered life can be.
• 0:33
  Khalila McCoy: Ann lives with chronic pain and illness, and it affects every part of her world.
• 0:39
  Khalila McCoy: Her job, her relationships, the food she can eat, how she's viewed within her culture, and so much more.
• 0:45
  Khalila McCoy: By sharing her story, she reminds us of the importance of empathy, of slowing down enough to really see one another, and of staying true to ourselves no matter what we're navigating.
• 0:57
  Khalila McCoy: Her honesty is a powerful reminder that everyone carries something, but we can choose to see ourselves as storytellers, shaping meaning, direction, and purpose as we go.
• 1:10
  Khalila McCoy: Let's listen.
• 1:15
  Khalila McCoy: Hi Ann, how are you?
• 1:17
  Ann Harikeerthan: Hi, I'm well.
• 1:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Thank you for having me.
• 1:21
  Khalila McCoy: So for all of our listeners, Ann is actually in India, and we found out.
• 1:26
  Khalila McCoy: Well, I found out she already knew, but I found out when we were scheduling her recording that it's actually morning there.
• 1:34
  Khalila McCoy: So where you are it's Saturday morning for you.
• 1:37
  Khalila McCoy: And you said it's eight o'clock in the morning?
• 1:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, it's 8 a.m.
• 1:42
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 1:42
  Khalila McCoy: So she got up early.
• 1:43
  Khalila McCoy: So thank you so much.
• 1:44
  Khalila McCoy: And it's 9 30 for me here on Friday night.
• 1:49
  Khalila McCoy: So you're my first international guest.
• 1:51
  Khalila McCoy: So I'm super excited to have you.
• 1:53
  Khalila McCoy: And I'm super excited to talk to you.
• 1:56
  Khalila McCoy: It means so much that you would, like I said, get up early just to get on and share your story with I like to say the world, but you know, our listeners.
• 2:05
  Khalila McCoy: The world, yeah.
• 2:07
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, right.
• 2:08
  Khalila McCoy: We're gonna, we're gonna speak it out there.
• 2:10
  Khalila McCoy: The whole world's gonna be listening to this.
• 2:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 2:13
  Khalila McCoy: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
• 2:16
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay, I'm Ann Harikeerthan.
• 2:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: I'm a writer from India.
• 2:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, I actually wanted to be a writer from the time I was really young, but um my community and family told me to pursue medicine instead.
• 2:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I joined um medical school, and then I became a doctor, and I found that it was a space that was changing me um for the worse.
• 2:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was making me less empathic.
• 2:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I also noticed that I stopped writing.
• 2:48
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I took a decision um when I was three years into being a practicing doctor that I'm going to leave practice so that I can write.
• 3:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and I write about themes that are related to what I studied.
• 3:06
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I write about suffering and about healing.
• 3:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um I also come from a faith tradition, so I do talk about faith and how it relates to suffering.
• 3:18
  Ann Harikeerthan: And that's about me.
• 3:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, I live here with my husband and I have a cat.
• 3:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: Uh-huh.
• 3:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: What's your cat's name?
• 3:25
  Ann Harikeerthan: My cat's name is Kumbli.
• 3:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: It means blanket Okay.
• 3:33
  Khalila McCoy: Ah, that's cute.
• 3:34
  Khalila McCoy: I like that.
• 3:34
  Khalila McCoy: Is it Kumbli?
• 3:36
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yes, Kumbly.
• 3:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: Nice.
• 3:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: That's pretty.
• 3:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: I like that.
• 3:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: Well, it's interesting that you're gonna talk a little bit about pain today.
• 3:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, your own kind of journey with pain and just learning how to be kind to yourself, and then you have a message of encouraging people to show empathy as well.
• 3:57
  Ann Harikeerthan: So go ahead and kind of tell us what are you working through right now.
• 4:05
  Ann Harikeerthan: So there are a couple of different kinds of things that I'm working through at the moment.
• 4:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um when I was a teenager, we found that I I have migraine.
• 4:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um I think when I was a little older, when I just left clinical practice to become a writer, the migraine intensity increased a lot.
• 4:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was also the time when I was processing a lot of trauma from um the time when I was in medicine and the time when I was a child.
• 4:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: So with all of that, I think that my body really couldn't handle it.
• 4:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: So the migraine episodes just became so many, so frequent that I couldn't work for a very long time.
• 4:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but more recently, in addition to this uh issue of migraine, we also found that I have an autoimmune condition.
• 5:05
  Ann Harikeerthan: And there is a story behind how we discovered that, which I'll tell you in a bit.
• 5:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but it just means that during the winters, a lot of my symptoms get worse.
• 5:17
  Ann Harikeerthan: It means that I can't always do the things that I want to, but I need to slow down to allow my body the space to catch up and rest.
• 5:26
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um It is a little difficult, it is an adjustment, but I feel that it is it's something worth adjusting to, in that if I am able to take care of my body, then my body is able to take care of me and allow me to do the things that I want to.
• 5:47
  Khalila McCoy: You said with the migraines, that started when you were younger.
• 5:51
  Khalila McCoy: How were how did that come about finding out that it was migraines that you were having versus just a headache here and there?
• 6:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: So when I was a child, um what I noticed was that uh there were a lot of foods that I didn't like.
• 6:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and a lot of foods would give me tummy aches.
• 6:14
  Ann Harikeerthan: Uh, but I didn't know what it was or how to explain it to anybody.
• 6:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Much later we found out I mean I found out that um migraine in really young children presents with abdominal pain.
• 6:27
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 6:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's called abdominal migraine.
• 6:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but when I was a teenager, one evening I just came back from school and I had this pain on one side of my head, and I I could hear this really loud buzzing sound, like like there were crickets outside um the window.
• 6:50
  Ann Harikeerthan: And it was just so intense.
• 6:52
  Ann Harikeerthan: I didn't know what to do, so I just switched off the lights and tried to sleep, but I couldn't sleep.
• 6:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um my brother came back home after his school and he said, you know, he was really surprised because I usually watch TV or uh do something else after coming back from school.
• 7:11
  Ann Harikeerthan: But he was like, How come all the lights are off?
• 7:15
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I just I shushed him.
• 7:17
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's like shh, it's hurting a lot.
• 7:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um so he asked me about you know the the pain and what was going on.
• 7:26
  Ann Harikeerthan: He was also in school at this point, but he was you know preparing for medical school.
• 7:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um I remember telling him, There are these crickets, they're really annoying and they're really loud.
• 7:41
  Ann Harikeerthan: And my brother was like, I don't hear anything.
• 7:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that's when we realized that it was not just a headache, there was something else as well.
• 7:51
  Ann Harikeerthan: And then um later when I was in medical school, um the intensity of the pain and the frequency of the migraines increased.
• 8:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: Initially, we didn't really know what it was.
• 8:04
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um we knew that it was not just a headache, but we weren't very clear on what it what exactly the diagnosis was.
• 8:13
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but over time I began to notice that uh there were other symptoms that didn't fit into a typical headache, but it had to be something more.
• 8:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: Uh one of it was that sometimes my visual field would look really funny.
• 8:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it would look as if um everything that I'm looking at is zooming in and out.
• 8:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: Or it would feel like the room is just beginning to spin.
• 8:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, or sometimes I would have tingling on my face or numbness on one side of my body.
• 8:46
  Khalila McCoy: How did you handle that in those moments?
• 8:48
  Khalila McCoy: Did you get nervous?
• 8:49
  Khalila McCoy: Were you scared?
• 8:51
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, I was so scared.
• 8:53
  Ann Harikeerthan: The first time it happened, I had no idea, you know, and um I didn't know that a lot of my triggers were dietary.
• 9:00
  Ann Harikeerthan: So, in fact, the first time that I had this pulsating feeling, you know, like the uh visual feel was just zooming in and out.
• 9:09
  Ann Harikeerthan: I had just eaten something in a in a restaurant, and it was this dish that that I really like.
• 9:15
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I came outside and these symptoms started, and I was so sure I was poisoned because I don't know what this is.
• 9:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 9:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: This is just not typical.
• 9:26
  Khalila McCoy: Oh so you were able to eat that food before and had no problem, then all of a sudden food started triggering you.
• 9:33
  Ann Harikeerthan: I think it was more that I was eating the food and then developing the symptoms, but not realizing that it was the food that was causing the symptoms.
• 9:44
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 9:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um I found out about the food much later when um one of my professors in college said that it's a good idea to keep a migraine journal.
• 9:57
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I very meticulously wrote down everything that I was eating.
• 10:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I don't mean like the name of the dish, but every ingredient that went into the dish.
• 10:10
  Khalila McCoy: And I know in Indian foods you use a lot of spices.
• 10:13
  Khalila McCoy: I'm sure your list was very long.
• 10:16
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was so long, it was like a page or longer.
• 10:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 10:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and so on one side I would put down all of the ingredients, and on the other side I would put down the time when a symptom began.
• 10:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: And that's when I began to that's how I began to notice the correlation.
• 10:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I found that there were specific foods um that caused the migraine.
• 10:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: And one of them is bell peppers.
• 10:43
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and at that point it was one of my favorite foods.
• 10:49
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I had to give it up.
• 10:53
  Khalila McCoy: Did you find it hard?
• 10:54
  Khalila McCoy: Like I know you just said one of them is bell peppers, but were there other ingredients that would trigger you that were very common in the food that you were eating?
• 11:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yes.
• 11:04
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um, after we found out that I couldn't have bell peppers and I stopped having it, I noticed that I was also getting migraine, but not as intense, with um chili peppers.
• 11:18
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I had to stop consuming chili, which is very difficult in the Indian context because all our food has chilies.
• 11:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and another really important spice in India that I can't have is cumin.
• 11:36
  Ann Harikeerthan: And cumin again is something that we use in all of our curries.
• 11:41
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's there in almost every Indian dish.
• 11:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it was quite difficult to give that up.
• 11:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but funnyly, what was more difficult than giving it up was convincing people that these are things that can trigger migraine.
• 11:57
  Khalila McCoy: So people weren't believing you?
• 12:00
  Ann Harikeerthan: No, because in the in the Indian tradition, cumin is part of a healing.
• 12:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: I mean, it's thought to be a healing ingredient.
• 12:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 12:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: That's one of the reasons why they use it in cooking, because they feel that, you know, it reduces um bloating, it reduces gastric kind of issues, and it just helps them.
• 12:24
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 12:24
  Khalila McCoy: So you have something that's supposed to make you well, and you're like, no, it's actually making you sick.
• 12:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 12:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 12:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Khalila McCoy: I can see that being really hard.
• 12:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 12:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: My dad would often say, you know, no, this is a healing food.
• 12:36
  Ann Harikeerthan: How can it cause any for you?
• 12:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: Like just us to know what to say.
• 12:42
  Khalila McCoy: What was it like for you trying to like avoid those meals and like I said, convincing people, were you upset at first that people weren't believing you, that they would till still try to get you to eat it?
• 12:51
  Khalila McCoy: Or were you kind of just like understanding that, you know, this is rare, so they don't get it?
• 12:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was quite difficult in in the beginning, to be honest.
• 13:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, very often people would say that, you know, it's just psychological.
• 13:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, and that would hurt me because a lot of the foods that I came up on were things that I like.
• 13:15
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I was like, why would I, you know, why would my mind just be like, you can't have like I'm not making this up.
• 13:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 13:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so that was that was one thing that really bothered me.
• 13:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: But actually another thing that really bothered me was um that the the church that I was going to at that time, um, they they used to have meals together after services, which was very nice.
• 13:43
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but I explained to them that you know I have these dietary restrictions, and then sometimes they would make food uh which had some of these ingredients, and then they would say, you know, just just pray and eat and you'll be okay.
• 13:59
  Ann Harikeerthan: If you have a migraine, it means that you don't have enough faith.
• 14:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I was like, oh no.
• 14:04
  Ann Harikeerthan: That just I think that hurt more.
• 14:08
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um it's not easy when people don't take your illnesses seriously.
• 14:16
  Khalila McCoy: Did you believe that?
• 14:17
  Khalila McCoy: Like, oh no, I don't have enough faith.
• 14:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: No, I did not believe that.
• 14:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 14:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: Because I had been a while that you know that it would just go away, but it didn't.
• 14:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Khalila McCoy: So it took a long time for you to figure out those triggers and for you to figure out what you had to change when you started noticing that it was certain foods and you started letting go of those.
• 14:42
  Khalila McCoy: Did the migraines go away?
• 14:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 14:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um before I found out what my triggers were, I was getting episodes almost every other day.
• 14:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: And uh I remember when I was uh maintaining this journal of uh the triggers and the migraine episodes.
• 15:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: That's when I found out that two-thirds of my month I was I was I was in a lot of pain or I had other symptoms.
• 15:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um one of the symptoms that I didn't mention was is is a symptom called brain fog.
• 15:18
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's when you really can't focus on anything.
• 15:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: So in addition to the pain, some of the days I just couldn't focus, which meant that I couldn't write.
• 15:27
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I just switched to careers at that point, so it was it was really upsetting me.
• 15:33
  Ann Harikeerthan: But once I found out what the triggers were and I cut them out of my diet, I found that the symptoms reduced significantly.
• 15:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I had only four or five episodes in a month.
• 15:49
  Ann Harikeerthan: But now I just get one, and that's usually around the time of my period.
• 15:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that's amazing.
• 15:57
  Khalila McCoy: Do you have medication that you can take when that happens, or do you just kind of have to fight through it?
• 16:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um yeah, that's a really good question.
• 16:06
  Ann Harikeerthan: So there there are a lot of medicines for migraine.
• 16:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, there are some medicines that prevent migraine.
• 16:13
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um I started taking that when I was uh really having a difficult time with migraine.
• 16:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: But what I found was that it had other side effects and it wasn't perfect in its ability to prevent the migraine.
• 16:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I I stopped the medicines and I just focused on um reducing or avoiding the triggers and that worked better.
• 16:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 16:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: But when I get an episode now, um I found that what works best is to take a painkiller really early.
• 16:49
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um here I just use paracetamol, which I think in the US is called Tylenol.
• 16:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yes, yeah.
• 16:57
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I just take one of that really early.
• 17:00
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that's when the pain intensity is one out of ten.
• 17:04
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um what I used to do before was to think, okay, let's just wait and see.
• 17:09
  Ann Harikeerthan: If it gets worse, then I'll take the medicine.
• 17:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: But what ends up happening is as the symptoms worsen, the simpler medicines don't work.
• 17:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: At which point, um, if I need to feel better, I would need injectable analgesics, or I would have to go to the hospital.
• 17:27
  Ann Harikeerthan: So this is what I found works, which is to take um a small over-the-counter painkiller really early.
• 17:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: So as soon as the symptoms begin.
• 17:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: And that usually just aborts the symptoms within, I don't know, maybe an hour or so.
• 17:46
  Khalila McCoy: Oh good.
• 17:47
  Khalila McCoy: So when did you have your last migraine?
• 17:50
  Khalila McCoy: Three days back.
• 17:54
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 17:55
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 17:58
  Khalila McCoy: Oh, lucky you.
• 18:00
  Ann Harikeerthan: Lucky me.
• 18:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 18:03
  Khalila McCoy: But you took the Tylenol and in an hour, at least that that issue in your body was taken care of right now.
• 18:09
  Khalila McCoy: So then fast forward to your immune system, right?
• 18:17
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 18:17
  Khalila McCoy: What happened with that?
• 18:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay, so um it was winter last year.
• 18:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um pretty much around the same time as now when we're doing this recording.
• 18:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: And the temperature was it wasn't too low.
• 18:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: I mean, it's not as cold.
• 18:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: It doesn't get as cold here as it does in the US.
• 18:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: But it was colder than the place where I grew up.
• 18:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: And uh, during a cold wave, um, in the middle of the night, I just felt like my toe was hurting.
• 18:50
  Ann Harikeerthan: Initially I thought some insect had bitten it.
• 18:53
  Ann Harikeerthan: I took a look and it looked like, you know, swelling a little bit.
• 18:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: Just looked like an insect bite.
• 18:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I ignored it and I went back to sleep.
• 19:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: It didn't occur to me that what was happening was that it was too cold and something was happening to my toes.
• 19:08
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but within a couple of days we noticed that the pain hadn't subsided, it had gotten worse and the swelling was worse.
• 19:17
  Ann Harikeerthan: And uh when these symptoms had begun, my husband was not in town.
• 19:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: He had gone out of station.
• 19:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: And he just came back and he saw my toe and he was like, Ann, it's purple.
• 19:32
  Khalila McCoy: Wow.
• 19:33
  Khalila McCoy: That's good.
• 19:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: That started to ring some bells because I remembered from uh studying medicine that if a toe turns purple, it's usually because it's lost blood supply.
• 19:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um I also knew that if a toe loses blood supply, not all of them, just one toe loses blood supply, it's very likely that um the reason why that happened is either just because it's a frostbite or because um there's an autoimmune condition which is causing the toe to turn purple.
• 20:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that's when I began to think that there is an autoimmune condition that's um happening.
• 20:16
  Ann Harikeerthan: But I didn't know what it was.
• 20:18
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I went back to uh my alma mater, which is a hospital, and I spoke to one of my um one of the people who graduated before me, who is a specialist in um issues related to the immune system, and she asked a bunch of questions and she helped me figure out that it was um a condition called chogrin's.
• 20:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: But um chogrins is it's it's a common, it's quite common apparently, but only some people have um symptoms like this of toast early purple, things of that sort.
• 20:59
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um I didn't know a lot about it at that point, but then I Googled it and I found out that one of the um uh one of the Williams sisters, uh the tennis players, has children.
• 21:13
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I was so happy to just hear her story and to know that she's been through this and she knows what it's like.
• 21:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: She knows what it's like to put a pause on her career because of it and then come back to it, and things of that sort.
• 21:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it was it was just fantastic to um.
• 21:32
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, that's so cool that you were Yeah, you were able to hear her story and kind of feel like you weren't alone in it and that there was hope.
• 21:40
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 21:40
  Khalila McCoy: Because I believe you told me before this is not curable, right?
• 21:44
  Khalila McCoy: So it's something you'll always have to manage.
• 21:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 21:48
  Khalila McCoy: Other than your toe losing blood, like and turning purple, what are some of the other symptoms that you experience with this?
• 21:57
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, so with with shokens, it's It's usually dryness of the skin, of the mouth, um of like everywhere.
• 22:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: So a lot of things can get painful and during winter, you know, like skin can crack and that can be painful.
• 22:17
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but uh we also noticed that my symptoms don't fit perfectly into shoplance.
• 22:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um because I do get a few other symptoms which are more typical of a slightly more serious um autoimmune condition, but it hasn't yet fully manifested, so we just have to wait and see what it is.
• 22:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I I also get a rash on the face, it's called a mala rash.
• 22:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: I get ulcers inside my mouth.
• 22:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um in the future it's possible that um I could have joint pains, um it could it could lead to other organs also getting affected.
• 23:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: But the hope is that we will be able to spot and treat those things or avoid those things that can worsen these symptoms.
• 23:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: So in that sense, having migraine helped because it taught me to take care of my body.
• 23:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: And now with this happening, I just began to reframe it in that I started to think, okay, this illness is teaching me how to care for my body better.
• 23:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it's gonna help me find more things that I need to be careful of.
• 23:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um a simple thing is winters, right?
• 23:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: So whereas last year I was very ignorant of what's happening during winter, this year I'm more careful to um keep myself warm and make sure that um, you know, I'm moisturized well.
• 23:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: Right.
• 23:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: Just yeah.
• 23:57
  Ann Harikeerthan: Think so that's what I think I found this to be a really good way of thinking of it, that these illnesses just help me understand the mechanics of my body and help me figure out how to take care of it better.
• 24:12
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, I like how you're turning the situation into a positive, making yourself think, okay, I'm gonna slow down so I'm ready for whatever comes.
• 24:20
  Khalila McCoy: You're not living in fear of what comes.
• 24:23
  Khalila McCoy: And like you said, you've listened to your body, you've had to make changes before for your migraine, so you know you have the ability to do that again.
• 24:30
  Khalila McCoy: And it's not something that is overwhelming.
• 24:34
  Khalila McCoy: As far as like I know you're you're married, so I'm assuming your husband is a big support for you.
• 24:41
  Khalila McCoy: Who do you lean on?
• 24:42
  Khalila McCoy: Like on those days when it feels hard or you're uncomfortable.
• 24:45
  Khalila McCoy: Do you have somebody you lean on?
• 24:46
  Khalila McCoy: Do you have like, you know, like a little thing that you do that makes you feel better?
• 24:52
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Ann Harikeerthan: So when I'm on will, my husband does most of the things that we might have done together.
• 25:00
  Ann Harikeerthan: So for instance, he would cook the food, uh, which usually is a shared responsibility.
• 25:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: Right.
• 25:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and I'd just be in bed.
• 25:09
  Ann Harikeerthan: He kind of take care of me, which is very sweet.
• 25:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um another thing that really helps, and this is something I found out when I was really uh young.
• 25:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: So the first time that I had the migraine and I heard the crickets, um my mom came back home and she was really worried about me.
• 25:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: So she just put her hand on my forehead.
• 25:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I can't tell you how this worked, but within half an hour or so the symptoms subsided.
• 25:42
  Khalila McCoy: I find the mother's love.
• 25:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: So a hand on the forehead, especially from my husband or my mother, yeah, still works.
• 25:51
  Ann Harikeerthan: So when I'm not feeling so well, you know, I ask them to just place their hand on my forehead.
• 25:57
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and my cat also helps.
• 26:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I think she also seems to know when I'm not feeling my best.
• 26:05
  Ann Harikeerthan: So she just comes and snumbles up next to me and burrs, and that also helps.
• 26:11
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um yeah, very often it's just switch off all the lights, pull the curtains, draw the sheets over myself and try to sleep.
• 26:21
  Khalila McCoy: How do you manage like your social life?
• 26:23
  Khalila McCoy: So from what I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, from what I know of Indian culture, it's a very big community.
• 26:29
  Khalila McCoy: Food is a very big important part.
• 26:31
  Khalila McCoy: So we already talked about the food aspect of it.
• 26:33
  Khalila McCoy: I'm sure some of the days like you have to stay at home to relax, and you're like, no, please don't call or come over.
• 26:39
  Khalila McCoy: How do you balance that?
• 26:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 26:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so yes, in India, um food is a really important, vital part of community.
• 26:53
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and I'll I'll talk about it in a bit.
• 26:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: I just want to mention another thing that's really big in India.
• 27:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: So in India, um there are these different kinds of celebrations.
• 27:08
  Ann Harikeerthan: For example, if someone is getting married, throw a huge, huge banquet with anywhere between thousand and five thousand people who's coming to wish the couple.
• 27:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um there have been multiple times when I've had a really bad migraine, which stopped me from going to a friend's wedding.
• 27:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I think that that hits me the hardest, that I wasn't there for them on the day when they were getting married.
• 27:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: And this happened with at least um three really close friends.
• 27:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um that really upset me that I couldn't be there with them.
• 27:50
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but uh like I was saying, food is an important part of the culture.
• 27:59
  Ann Harikeerthan: So for instance, if um we were meeting friends, it would have to be over a meal most most of the time.
• 28:08
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it's very rare that you know people would meet as friends and go for a movie or meet as friends and go play some games.
• 28:16
  Ann Harikeerthan: Very often to have a meal.
• 28:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so sometimes when friends invite me over to their homes, I would tell them that I have these dietary restrictions.
• 28:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: And uh occasionally they would listen to whatever's saying and they would make sure that you know the food doesn't have those ingredients.
• 28:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: Like yesterday I went to a friend's house and they were really kind about it and they made sure that the food was um was perfect for me.
• 28:48
  Ann Harikeerthan: But sometimes people come with that attitude of, you know, you're just making this up or you just need to pray a little bit more, sort of thing.
• 28:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um what's happened was when that happened, I felt really hurt and I g I couldn't get past the fact that they were not able to just um appreciate this boundary that I had with food or to think that you know it's it's important for me to take care of my body and that I can't just eat because they created something we made.
• 29:21
  Khalila McCoy: So here in America, I feel like all we talk about is food allergies, right?
• 29:27
  Khalila McCoy: Like people can't have peanuts or people can't have gluten and things like that.
• 29:30
  Khalila McCoy: Like it's very common to go places and understand that you can ask for your food to be prepared a certain way, or you know, don't have this at, you know, at our schools we have peanut-free tables.
• 29:42
  Khalila McCoy: Is our food allergies not something that's talked about a lot in India, or is it something that you don't see regularly?
• 29:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: I think in India there's not as much awareness of um food allergies.
• 30:00
  Ann Harikeerthan: I mean, people know, for instance, that seafood could cause allergies.
• 30:06
  Ann Harikeerthan: So there are, you know, like if you go to a restaurant and you tell them that I can't have shellfish, that's an allergy they would take seriously.
• 30:15
  Ann Harikeerthan: But everything else, it's not as understood or the general public isn't very aware that's so since your allergy is not one of like the more common ones, yeah.
• 30:27
  Khalila McCoy: Then it's not taken as seriously.
• 30:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: And it's part of Indian food.
• 30:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's people's stuff.
• 30:33
  Khalila McCoy: That's what we always do, right?
• 30:34
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 30:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 30:36
  Ann Harikeerthan: So they find it really difficult.
• 30:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: I think the more complicated thing is that um a lot of people uh depend on these spices for their cooking to bring the flavors that they want.
• 30:49
  Ann Harikeerthan: So asking them to cook without it can feel difficult for them, especially if they're not very familiar with cooking.
• 30:57
  Khalila McCoy: Because they don't know what else to put in there.
• 30:59
  Khalila McCoy: They don't know what else to put in it.
• 31:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: Uh-huh.
• 31:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:02
  Khalila McCoy: Um have you found good substitutions?
• 31:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: I found that even if you just leave out those ingredients, it still tastes very good.
• 31:15
  Khalila McCoy: I like that.
• 31:15
  Khalila McCoy: You should just celebrate like, hey, it's still gonna be great.
• 31:18
  Khalila McCoy: As long as you cook it, right?
• 31:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 31:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um, for example, um chili peppers and we use a lot of chili powders as well.
• 31:27
  Ann Harikeerthan: So red chili powdered and just you know, like like paprika, but really spicy.
• 31:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um instead of that, you can just use black pepper.
• 31:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 31:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: You use a lot of it and it creates the spice that we want without it being a trigger.
• 31:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um there are substitutes as well, but in addition to that, some things I find just taste better without the spices.
• 31:53
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um I also want to say that um I found something really interesting when I discovered the the food triggers.
• 32:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I think this is this is how I found who my people were.
• 32:06
  Ann Harikeerthan: So, like I imagine, you know, I went to friends' houses and they ignored what I was saying.
• 32:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: But then I I went to my aunt's house, and this is my mom's brother's wife.
• 32:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: So my mom's brother's family.
• 32:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: We went there for uh dinner, and I just explained to my aunt that, you know, I can't have these things because it it gives me my cream.
• 32:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: And so she made this huge banquet with dishes, and she made the same dishes for me without the ingredients.
• 32:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I tasted both just to make sure that they tasted exactly the same.
• 32:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was amazing.
• 32:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um what was fascinating was that I didn't have to tell any other relative that I have these food allergies.
• 32:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: Every time I went to another person's house, they made food and they they said we already made it to your requirements because Auntie's dead so that was so amazing.
• 33:08
  Ann Harikeerthan: Then, you know, like they just um yeah, it did it just it made me feel really loved that they would think about it and consider it even before I tell them anything.
• 33:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 33:22
  Khalila McCoy: That is really sweet.
• 33:23
  Khalila McCoy: I know you said that you have a book coming out.
• 33:26
  Khalila McCoy: Is your book related to this?
• 33:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, so my book is called From Wounds to Wholeness.
• 33:33
  Ann Harikeerthan: A Doctor's Journey to Healing from Trauma.
• 33:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um it's a book that talks about a lot of my stories.
• 33:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it does talk about um my journey to finding the migraine triggers.
• 33:50
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, it talks about my transition from being a doctor to becoming a writer, and it also talks about um deeper issues like um um trauma from childhood.
• 34:06
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I've interviewed a lot of people to write this book, so it's not just my story, but the stories of people who have been through really difficult things like abuse, and who've had um complicated diagnosis being given to them.
• 34:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and it it's just a book that explores how they made a sense of it and how I made sense of my experiences.
• 34:30
  Khalila McCoy: You mentioned before earlier that when you were younger, the migraines kind of were born out of trauma.
• 34:36
  Khalila McCoy: Do you mind sharing what some of the trauma that you experienced?
• 34:41
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um I can share some of it.
• 34:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: Uh so I think in Indian culture, um the school system is quite different.
• 34:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: I remember when I was um really young in school, um must have been in the fourth grade at that point.
• 35:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: There was a teacher who was really scary.
• 35:09
  Ann Harikeerthan: Really, really scary.
• 35:11
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um she used to hit people, you know, like little children, and uh she would yell a lot.
• 35:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was it was accepted in India at that point.
• 35:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so I remember um that every every time her class was coming, um her class was usually uh after lunch.
• 35:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: So there was a period after lunch when there was some other subject, and then there was this one.
• 35:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and if I had not completed my homework, right after lunch I would get a I would get a tummy ache.
• 35:51
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, because you're nervous to see her reaction.
• 35:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 35:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um I remember going to the uh the school, you know, the first aid area, forgot what it was called, like a rest space.
• 36:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um they called my mom, and my mom was like, she's she doesn't have anything at the moment.
• 36:17
  Ann Harikeerthan: But anyway, she came to school and picked me up and took me home.
• 36:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: And then my mom kind of, you know, tried to understand what was going on, and I told her about, you know, this teacher.
• 36:28
  Ann Harikeerthan: And so they figured out that um this teacher was causing so much trauma to so many kids.
• 36:36
  Khalila McCoy: So the school didn't know she was acting this way.
• 36:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: The school knew about it, but I think they didn't realize what kind of an impact it was having on the kids.
• 36:45
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 36:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um because I think like for a really long time there was just this thought that, you know, spare the rod, spoil the kid.
• 36:52
  Khalila McCoy: Spoil the child, yeah.
• 36:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 36:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um, yeah, I think it it was just not something that we were talking about in India at that point.
• 37:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: And it was just very normal and casual to spam kids and you know, be angry with them and that sort of thing.
• 37:08
  Ann Harikeerthan: But it was causing a lot of agony for a lot of kids.
• 37:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: And this was when they figured out.
• 37:15
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um And then they I think we we tried to speak to the school admin.
• 37:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: My mom must have, you know, had a word with them and say that um do something about it.
• 37:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: But the the sad part was that, you know, a few days later, when the teacher realized that I was the person who raised the complaint, um, she, you know, she was just pacing up and down in the class.
• 37:43
  Ann Harikeerthan: And by this time they made sure that there was always another teacher present.
• 37:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 37:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it wasn't just her, it was another teacher as well.
• 37:50
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and she said um in in Tamil, which is the uh the language of the place where I grew up, um she said something that meant you are the one who brought me disgrace.
• 38:05
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I carry that also with me for a really long time.
• 38:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so yeah, this is just one example, but you know, just generally because of the culture kind of people and the kind of thinking that exists, um, there were a lot of other things as well.
• 38:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 38:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's also very common for girls to get molested when they're really little.
• 38:27
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that happened to me as well when I was a kid.
• 38:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um yeah, things of that sort.
• 38:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Khalila McCoy: And I'm so sorry that you had to experience that.
• 38:38
  Khalila McCoy: First of all, as a former fourth grade teacher myself, like that should never happen.
• 38:43
  Khalila McCoy: You shouldn't be scared to go to school.
• 38:45
  Khalila McCoy: Adults should never talk down on you, on kids out there.
• 38:48
  Khalila McCoy: And I know you know that.
• 38:49
  Khalila McCoy: So I'm really sorry that that happened, as well as being molested.
• 38:53
  Khalila McCoy: I know that can carry a lot of weights.
• 38:56
  Khalila McCoy: And I feel like your story, like you've just talked about, you know, the physical things that you're doing with as far as the chronic migraines and the autoimmune, um, the autoimmune condition, but you have a lot of healing and pain inside that you've had to deal with as well.
• 39:14
  Khalila McCoy: Now you talked about the culture being different.
• 39:16
  Khalila McCoy: Was it something like you could go to therapy for?
• 39:19
  Khalila McCoy: Is it something you kind of had to figure out on your own?
• 39:21
  Khalila McCoy: Like figure out like what she said to be like I didn't bring her disgrace, like I stood up for myself and healing from what you've experienced.
• 39:29
  Khalila McCoy: How did that happen for you?
• 39:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um yeah, so therapy is another thing that, you know, within the Indian culture, is like um it it's still treated with a lot of uh skepticism and stigma.
• 39:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: So it's not very easy to uh for people to go to therapy.
• 39:52
  Ann Harikeerthan: Uh but I did speak to a lot of different people.
• 39:55
  Ann Harikeerthan: I had um friends who are therapists who helped me through some of these things.
• 40:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: But I think the biggest thing to help me heal was writing itself.
• 40:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I remember when I had um left clinical medicine and started writing, I had a lot of anger and bitterness towards the fact that I didn't pursue the career that I wanted to pursue.
• 40:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: But um I followed a path which was really the dreams of my family and my community.
• 40:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I was carrying a lot of, you know, hambring a lot of anger around that.
• 40:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so I wrote to another writer um explaining that, you know, this is what I'm going through.
• 40:43
  Ann Harikeerthan: And he's a much older writer, very well established in India.
• 40:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: His name is Vahalsan Thambu.
• 40:49
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and he gave me this idea that, you know, I could I could just write about what I'm experiencing and how I'm going through this process of healing, and that you know, I could write to him and then he would share his thoughts on it, and then it would be like a written counselling session, if that makes sense.
• 41:13
  Ann Harikeerthan: And then he said, as you're doing this and it's coming together, just think about making it a book.
• 41:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: So actually that's how this book came into existence.
• 41:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: It is a series of conversations um that I had with this person, this other writer and so the way we did it was I would write a chapter and send it to him.
• 41:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: And there were chapters where I was processing something.
• 41:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: Sometimes it was heavy with research because that's what I was doing at that point, you know, I was researching something.
• 41:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: And then he would send back edits with comments in brackets, and those comments would sometimes go for pages, and um those would be things that really uplift and really help me put what I'm going through into perspective.
• 42:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay, a different form of counseling.
• 42:07
  Ann Harikeerthan: It was very effective, it really helped.
• 42:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: And of course, you know, we got this beautiful book out of here.
• 42:13
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 42:16
  Khalila McCoy: Now, are all is your writings kind of more of that reflective?
• 42:21
  Khalila McCoy: Or do you what else do you what what other types of writing?
• 42:24
  Khalila McCoy: Sorry, I'm asking this a little bit.
• 42:26
  Khalila McCoy: What other types of writings do you do?
• 42:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so I do write fiction.
• 42:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: I write poetry.
• 42:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, but I think my favorite at the moment is nonfiction.
• 42:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 42:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: And yes, it is very reflective.
• 42:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um what I've found was uh quite recently, you know, I was thinking I need to be able to live what I write.
• 42:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: And then there was a lot of pressure, you know, to to make sure that whatever I was living was what I was writing.
• 43:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: Right.
• 43:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, so it was like I thought I'm writing this ideal and I need to make sure that I'm living it.
• 43:09
  Ann Harikeerthan: But then as I was thinking about it more, I realized that that's not my style at all.
• 43:14
  Ann Harikeerthan: My style is to write what I'm living.
• 43:16
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I write from experience.
• 43:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: And uh I write lessons that I drew from the stories that I went through.
• 43:24
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um it's not that I live what I write with the other, you know.
• 43:28
  Khalila McCoy: And I think you write what you live.
• 43:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 43:32
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, and like you said, that kind of adds like that therapeutic experience to it as well.
• 43:37
  Khalila McCoy: It makes you a reflective person, I'm sure.
• 43:41
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 43:42
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 43:43
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I found that um a lot of the questions that I ask myself are also questions that other people enjoy, like answers to.
• 43:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I started a community of writers um where It's it's a free community, anyone can join.
• 44:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: Where we meet together once in a couple of weeks and I share writing prompts.
• 44:09
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um and then we just answer those questions and then towards the end we might write a poem or a short story or um just a little bit of an essay, a little bit of prose and share it with one another.
• 44:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: And we found that this is also really therapeutic.
• 44:28
  Khalila McCoy: Now, how did you decide to start your community?
• 44:33
  Ann Harikeerthan: Oh, uh that's that's a good question as well.
• 44:36
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um I had mentioned earlier in the conversation that there was this church that I was part of, which didn't really understand.
• 44:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: So when we left that church, there was this huge lacuna.
• 44:52
  Ann Harikeerthan: I felt like I didn't have community.
• 44:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um the place where I'm living right now is very far from my family.
• 44:59
  Ann Harikeerthan: It's um it would take us um there there are no direct flights.
• 45:06
  Ann Harikeerthan: So people would have to go through two different airports at least.
• 45:12
  Ann Harikeerthan: And if they were to take a train to us or a bus, it would take 24 hours.
• 45:18
  Khalila McCoy: Oh, yeah, that's a long time.
• 45:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um I was feeling very isolated here.
• 45:25
  Ann Harikeerthan: I mean, of course, my husband is here, but um I felt like I needed friends and I needed people who were on in the same wavelength as me.
• 45:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: So one of my mentors at the time said, you know, if you don't have a community there, start a community.
• 45:42
  Khalila McCoy: Okay, yeah.
• 45:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um I started this community online because um there were friends in different parts of the country and the world that I wanted to keep in touch with.
• 45:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I felt like um if it's a virtual community, then it would it would work well.
• 46:04
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that's how the community started.
• 46:07
  Khalila McCoy: Um about how many people do you think you connect with?
• 46:11
  Ann Harikeerthan: Right now there are about a hundred people in the community.
• 46:16
  Khalila McCoy: Wow, that's awesome, yeah.
• 46:18
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 46:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I think almost all of them are writers.
• 46:22
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 46:23
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um in different phases of their writing journey.
• 46:25
  Khalila McCoy: I guess they couldn't just be like an amateur, they don't have to be like this in training to be a professional.
• 46:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 46:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: And it could also be that, you know, they just they only want to journal.
• 46:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: You can be a writer and only journal.
• 46:37
  Ann Harikeerthan: You know, you don't have to publish something.
• 46:39
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um, yeah, we have all kinds of people, just people who like to write.
• 46:46
  Khalila McCoy: Can you give us an example of like what a prompt was that you recently talked about?
• 46:52
  Ann Harikeerthan: We did a set of workshops using the psalms as a model.
• 46:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: So uh using that, I created a few prompts, and one of them is based on the psalm, psalm three, where it's a really nice psalm.
• 47:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: The psalmist is very, very authentic and honest to God.
• 47:15
  Ann Harikeerthan: And the psalmist says, break the teeth of my foes.
• 47:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: And I just thought, you know, that that's fantastic.
• 47:26
  Ann Harikeerthan: We should be able to at least write like that, you know, without the pretenses.
• 47:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 47:31
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um the prompts were um, what is something that's disturbing you today?
• 47:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, what do you know to be true in this situation?
• 47:44
  Ann Harikeerthan: And how does that bring you courage?
• 47:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: And what would you like God or um the higher power to do for you in this context?
• 47:59
  Ann Harikeerthan: And people wrote amazing things.
• 48:02
  Ann Harikeerthan: I am it.
• 48:04
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 48:05
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 48:05
  Khalila McCoy: That is so deep.
• 48:07
  Khalila McCoy: I'm like sitting here like, whoa, I'm gonna have to replay this and like sit down and journal myself.
• 48:13
  Khalila McCoy: That is a really good.
• 48:14
  Khalila McCoy: So each week it's really so it's not just like create a story about a fairy tale thing.
• 48:20
  Khalila McCoy: Like this is real stuff that is making you dig deep into who you are.
• 48:26
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:27
  Khalila McCoy: That's really neat.
• 48:29
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah.
• 48:29
  Khalila McCoy: And do you always come up with a prompt or do other people lead some weeks?
• 48:33
  Khalila McCoy: How does that work?
• 48:35
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um most of the time I create the prompts.
• 48:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: But what I've done is um I've invited different people to talk.
• 48:45
  Ann Harikeerthan: Okay.
• 48:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: And um to to just share their knowledge, their wisdom about uh different things that we are writing about.
• 48:56
  Ann Harikeerthan: So for instance, there have been people talking to us about storytelling, there have been people talking to us about poetry.
• 49:03
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um with this group that's walking through the psalms, we also have people coming in talking about um, you know, how the psalms are structured, what the poetry, what the poetry within it is like, and things of that sort.
• 49:19
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um so people teach.
• 49:21
  Ann Harikeerthan: I have asked a few people to share prompts as well to help people reflect and write.
• 49:27
  Ann Harikeerthan: And sometimes you do it really well, but I think it it's a learning process.
• 49:32
  Ann Harikeerthan: So um I'm hoping that very soon more people be able to lead these workshops.
• 49:42
  Khalila McCoy: I like that a lot.
• 49:43
  Khalila McCoy: You're creating space for other people as well.
• 49:46
  Ann Harikeerthan: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:47
  Ann Harikeerthan: I think with prompts it's just um the art of you know thinking about what question would make me think deeper.
• 50:01
  Ann Harikeerthan: And if we ask the same question to other people, then we'd find that they also think deeper.
• 50:08
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 50:10
  Ann Harikeerthan: And uh during these workshops, um, although I give the prompts, I also write.
• 50:16
  Ann Harikeerthan: So I find that it tends to be quite therapeutic for me as well.
• 50:21
  Khalila McCoy: Ann, when you and I first met, you let me know there's a lot of things that you could talk about from your life.
• 50:29
  Khalila McCoy: And when I asked you to pick what you wanted to share and what you felt most comfortable talking about, you really wanted to share about the chronic illnesses and pains that you went through that you were still dealing with in your life.
• 50:46
  Khalila McCoy: Now that we've heard what you go through and what you live through pretty much daily, talk to us about what you really hope the listener takes away from what you've shared today and how they can use what you've shared to rise.
• 51:04
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um, you know, through my life I've experienced different forms of difficulty, different forms of suffering, whether it's illness or um recovery from trauma or having to do go into a career that I was not interested in, um, difficulties with relationships, uh sometimes financial difficulties, different things of this sort.
• 51:30
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um but I just want to say that, you know, I've found that it helps a lot to think about suffering um in an in a new way, meaning try to speak to different people and try to find a narrative for your suffering that empowers you.
• 51:53
  Ann Harikeerthan: Because the stories that we tell around our suffering matter.
• 51:58
  Ann Harikeerthan: So if I say that, you know, I'm suffering because um I'm a bad person, or I'm suffering because this is what I deserve, or I'm suffering because you know the world is against me, that's the story that's gonna stick.
• 52:13
  Ann Harikeerthan: And it's gonna affect us, um, not just in our mind, but also in our body, in our spirit.
• 52:20
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um what would help instead is to speak to people to understand their perspectives on it, and then to create a story about your suffering that works for you.
• 52:34
  Ann Harikeerthan: Like I was saying with my illnesses, it's that these teach me how to take care of my body better.
• 52:41
  Ann Harikeerthan: And that almost gives purpose to something that's otherwise, you know, just a pain in the neck.
• 52:48
  Ann Harikeerthan: Right?
• 52:48
  Ann Harikeerthan: So that would be the last thing that I would say, you know.
• 52:54
  Ann Harikeerthan: Um try to see if there's a story that's more powerful for you in whatever you're going through.
• 53:04
  Khalila McCoy: That's beautiful.
• 53:05
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing yourself with the people that you're helping and as you're helping yourself too.
• 53:14
  Khalila McCoy: And we'll definitely link um the information to join your community or to look at your website.
• 53:21
  Khalila McCoy: And also, um, I know your book's not coming out for a few months, but we'll check back in and we'll be excited to hear.
• 53:28
  Khalila McCoy: I will definitely get a copy.
• 53:29
  Khalila McCoy: I'm excited to hear and read about your exchanges with the other author.
• 53:35
  Khalila McCoy: So I think it's gonna be wonderful.
• 53:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: Thank you.
• 53:38
  Ann Harikeerthan: Thank you so much for having me.
• 53:40
  Ann Harikeerthan: This has been such a beautiful conversation.
• 53:44
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you.
• 53:45
  Khalila McCoy: Ann's story has so many layers to it.
• 53:52
  Khalila McCoy: We didn't just hear a woman talk about being sick or not feeling well.
• 53:56
  Khalila McCoy: We heard how illness and pain have reshaped her entire life.
• 54:01
  Khalila McCoy: Things that many of us take for granted, the food we eat, the culture we grew up in, the friendships we assume would hold.
• 54:08
  Khalila McCoy: All of that has been tested by something completely outside of her control.
• 54:13
  Khalila McCoy: And yet, Ann finds a way to carry the weight of it all through writing.
• 54:18
  Khalila McCoy: It's her passion, her outlet, and her bridge to connection.
• 54:23
  Khalila McCoy: In the show notes, you'll find a link to her Instagram.
• 54:26
  Khalila McCoy: I really encourage you to follow her.
• 54:29
  Khalila McCoy: She often shares her poems and they are truly beautiful.
• 54:33
  Khalila McCoy: As Ann wrapped up the conversation, she said, change the narrative.
• 54:40
  Khalila McCoy: She also said, create a story around your suffering that works for you.
• 54:46
  Khalila McCoy: She's not telling us to pretend everything is fine or to deny that we're going through something.
• 54:52
  Khalila McCoy: She's inviting us to rise above it, to look at our pain and ask how it might move us forward instead of holding us back.
• 55:00
  Khalila McCoy: And that's not easy.
• 55:02
  Khalila McCoy: It can be terrifying to confront the truth of a situation or to acknowledge the limits something has placed on us.
• 55:09
  Khalila McCoy: But that's where real growth begins.
• 55:12
  Khalila McCoy: When we stop running from the hard parts and start facing them with honesty and compassion, we give ourselves a chance to heal, to shift, and to become someone stronger on the other side.
• 55:24
  Khalila McCoy: Ann took her heart and turned it into art.
• 55:27
  Khalila McCoy: She uses her gift for writing to help others feel seen and teaches other writers how to do the same.
• 55:34
  Khalila McCoy: And while yes, Ann's story and many of the stories on this podcast begin in a place of pain or struggle, your story doesn't have to start there.
• 55:43
  Khalila McCoy: If you're someone who hasn't walked through the fire, that's wonderful.
• 55:48
  Khalila McCoy: You still have something to offer.
• 55:50
  Khalila McCoy: You still have a voice, a gift, and a perspective that can help someone else.
• 55:55
  Khalila McCoy: In honor of Ann, I will do my best to give you a thoughtful writing prompt.
• 56:02
  Khalila McCoy: So when you get a chance, pick one and reflect on it.
• 56:06
  Khalila McCoy: Here we go.
• 56:07
  Khalila McCoy: Here's the first one.
• 56:09
  Khalila McCoy: Write about a moment in your life where the story you were telling yourself kept you stuck.
• 56:15
  Khalila McCoy: Then explore what happens when you shift that narrative.
• 56:19
  Khalila McCoy: What new meaning, possibility, or direction becomes available when you choose to see it differently?
• 56:25
  Khalila McCoy: Or my second one is reflect on a gift, talent, or passion that has helped you grow.
• 56:32
  Khalila McCoy: How can you lean into that strength even more and allow it to expand in your life?
• 56:38
  Khalila McCoy: If you would like to share your reflection with me or others, look for Where We Rise Pod on YouTube.
• 56:45
  Khalila McCoy: I'll post these questions in the community section and you can reply there.
• 56:50
  Khalila McCoy: I can't wait to see what you write.
• 56:52
  Khalila McCoy: Alright, y'all.
• 56:54
  Khalila McCoy: That's our time for today.
• 56:56
  Khalila McCoy: But you know what I'm gonna say.
• 56:58
  Khalila McCoy: As you move through the rest of your day, I hope you take a moment to listen a little louder to yourself, to the people you love, and to the things that connect us the ways we sometimes forget to know.
• 57:09
  Khalila McCoy: I'll meet you back here next time.
• 57:12
  Khalila McCoy: See ya bye.