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Complicated Thoughts About Therapy (Or Does Money Ruin Everything?) · Checked In

• Taylor: Welcome to Checked In, a mother daughter cultural deep dive podcast, where each episode we unpack the topics we can't stop talking about. I'm Taylor, the daughter. Jenny Gumm: I'm Jenny the mom. Taylor: And this week we're talking about our complicated opinions on therapy. But before we jump into that, what are you checking in on this week, mom? Jenny Gumm: I have been checking in and listening to all things Dolly Parton. I didn't it's interesting because I grew up with her and I can't say I've ever been a huge country music fan growing up in the era that I did. I really I appreciate it. However, I think especially being a working woman and with nine to five when that came out. I mean as those types of things and then just getting to know more about her over the years and then seeing how she has just always been such through the HIV crisis and through everything, just as always came across as so compassionate and giving and non-judgmental. And then as I've been doing research, just learning about her, I it's not that I didn't know about it, but the Imagination Library and all the things that she did for both the world and her local community, really being committed to that. And clearly literacy is something I really care about and think is super important. And it's been fun though going back and listening to all of her music and then understanding a little bit more about her story and how it evolved and like and how committed she always was to a hundred percent being herself. And a lot of the quotes are about that. Taylor: Yeah, she's so cool. Jenny Gumm: So I think one of the quotes was always be yourself on purpose and with purpose. And so it's Taylor: Did you Jenny Gumm: been sad and fun too to kind of do a deep dive. Taylor: Did you see that thing that her like the statement it says she wants to be buried in cotton 'cause she'd been wearing rhinestones and like polyester for so long. Jenny Gumm: I didn't see that. Taylor: She needs a breathable fabric in depth. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. No. Yeah. So anyway, just kind of been doing that this week. That's what's been on my mind. How about you? Taylor: I started reading East of Eden because there is gonna be a adaptation coming out soon. And I've always heard it's a very good book, but in school I read Grapes of Wrath and found it really boring. I mean, I was like 16 at the time. So I don't know that I could fully appreciate a story about the Dust Bowl. at that age, but Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: which is interesting because I believe my on my dad's side we actually had family members that Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: like migrated during that time and I remember him telling me and Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: still I was like no thank you I hate this book Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: but I will say I'm only like a hundred and fifty pages into East of Eden and it is a banger. It starts off with a bang. The story Is so good. I'm really excited to see the film adaptation. Florence Pugh plays Kathy. Jenny Gumm: wow. she's gonna be that'll be badass. Yeah. That it's a very complicated woman. Taylor: Yeah, I feel I feel that she deserves a character like that. Jenny Gumm: Mm. Taylor: Especially after Oppenheimer that character Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: was just mean. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: It was just not right to make someone act out that character. I mean, you Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: can't say no to a Christopher Nolan film. I get that, but Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I'm I'm happy to see a character with so much going on and so Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: much interest and hopefully because I do believe I'm not done with it, but from everything I've seen in like the internet and like through osmosis, I feel that she's everyone's kind of favorite to unpack in the book. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: The most interesting. So I'm like, good for you, Florence. I'm excited to see you. Act act your little heart out. So that's Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: that's what I'm checking in on and I'm happy. I'm happy I gave John Steinbeck, one of our greatest authors ever, another Jenny Gumm: Another chance. I know. Taylor: chance. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. I read that book when I was probably like thirteen or fourteen. But did go back and read it as an adult too. But loved it even then. I just think the characters have it's it's complicated. I mean it it's a very much where each character is pretty fully developed and it is complicated. I'll have to go back and read it again because it's I if I remember correctly, it's it's not that Taylor: It's six hundred pages. Jenny Gumm: It's yeah. So it's not short, but it's not long. Yeah. Taylor: yeah, the not like I was in honors English and the non-honours, so my friends not in honors got to read this book and I kept thinking, that sounds so much more interesting. Why Jenny Gumm: Yeah, yeah. Taylor: why am I reading and also I went to Catholic high school so I can totally see the whole Cain and Abel Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: plot line would be interesting to talk about from a theological perspective too. I don't even remember much about Graves of Wrath, so maybe there was that element in there too. But I j was so jealous of my friend reading this interesting book when I was reading Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: something I found very dry. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. I think to your point, East of Eden grabs you from the beginning. And so it and often, I'm a big believer you don't have to finish books. It's much better if a book grabs you in the first couple pages. I will give books a few chapters though, because sometimes depending on the how complicated the story is and those things. But yeah, no, it's a good book for sure. Taylor: shall we get to our Ugh Jenny Gumm: yeah, let's get to it. Taylor: this is a tough one. But Jenny Gumm: Yeah, well I think complicated. Tough. Yeah, both. Taylor: Tough tough in the way that Yeah, I think I you probably know people, I know you know people, I know people that love their therapist so much, so Jenny Gumm: yeah. Taylor: I wanna leave space for that and obviously we are coming from our own perspectives, so just yeah. I wanna do it Jenny Gumm: Yeah. No, and I Taylor: carefully. Jenny Gumm: yeah. And I think with full disclosure, I think what you're saying is that we've both been in therapy. We know people who are, we are not. This isn't about as much having an opinion about a therapist or those types of things. I think it's really just we are and we can't say what's right for anybody else. But I think through our conversations, we've noticed that there are definitely some nuances, especially with how it's developed and with our healthcare system and those types of things. And so that's what really we got us talking. Less about is therapy good or bad, and more about how do we look at therapy the way it is today. Taylor: Yeah, very much better said. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: So I feel like I should preface that I very the reason we even started talking about this is that I had a traumatic for me therapy breakup. Not in the fact that anything bad happened, in fact nothing bad happened, but I just didn't know how to do it at all. And through the process of trying to break up with my therapist over two months. realized a lot of things that are wrong and or not wrong but are confusing and maybe not set up the right way for both therapists and patients to have a really successful relationship because there are these just like landmines that especially if you're s like an anxious person like I am, that's why I'm in therap or I was in therapy, you don't know how to navigate them. There's no manual on how To do therapy from the patient's point of view. So that really got us talking about like, what are what is the system? Why did I feel that way? Why is it so hard to break up with your therapist? Why do you feel like you owe them as much as you would owe a best friend in a breakup? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, and I had gone through it too, because about a year and a half ago I had started. And the interesting thing was is for a variety of reasons I decided I it wasn't what I needed at the time. But even me, who have had a million tough conversations and has done all you know work and all of this stuff, I had to sit down and figure out the best way to do it. And even with me, I and you know If not sorry I didn't, but I ended up paying somebody for a session just to tell them that I was ending therapy. And so we not only did this come up with you, but when we started talking, I realized that even for me, it like there isn't a playbook. Although there is some information as we some recommendations as we did some research. Yet still I don't to me it was less about I'm happy I did it the way I did. it I felt it was the right thing to do. Still though, the amount of angst I had prior to it just had me questioning like, what is happening here? Taylor: you're you're very vulnerable being a patient going to therapy. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: It involves you acknowledging you as like a person acknowledging that something is wrong and that you need help with things that for some people they're not even talking about with the intimate people in their lives. So you're already opening yourself up so much to a person. and getting help with things are more intimate than medical doctors. I feel like there's a detachment from your body sometimes, but letting someone into your brain is a super, super vulnerable act. So I think that really plays into how much angst you could feel to just stop paying someone. Cause it is at the end of the day, a like financial transaction as well. So I do think that vulnerability that you inherently have to have in order to even make therapy worth it is leads to some some feelings of angst. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, you're yeah, you're being vulnerable. And also to your point, if it's gonna help, it's often looking at the parts of yourself, to your point, that you don't discuss with your friends or your family because they're the hard parts and they're the parts that aren't up until now, and we'll talk about this a little later, really haven't been discussed in public. I mean, I do think one of the things that is helpful is that there's a much higher awareness than when I was growing up. I mean, when I was growing up, you it was just starting to be okay to say that people had cancer. Up until then you didn't even like it was yeah. Taylor: Whoa. Jenny Gumm: So no. I mean I think that that so that's part of the good part. I also think though, as more people have access and we can to this, it does create maybe the Some dynamics that people aren't expecting because that with vulnerability is that sense of intimacy with somebody. And Taylor: Yeah, it yeah. Jenny Gumm: you know, and I think one of the things, you know, is is that we are paying the therapist. It is their job. But for us, it's more of a personal dynamic interaction with somebody that we have to trust in explicitly, or we cannot The relationship won't help us with what we need help with. Taylor: Yeah, I wonder if we should just dive into the payment of it all. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, I think so. Taylor: Because that does it kinda sets up I mean, it's basically the reason why the system creates these quagmires for everyone involved, because for the patient you're paying money. Usually most therapy is not covered by insurance. And if yeah, Jenny Gumm: Or not completely. Yeah. Taylor: exactly. Which I do think it's probably easier to get meds covered than therapy which is its own issue. But Jenny Gumm: That's a different podcast. But for sure, probably. Well, because it's it's a transaction. I mean, if you think about even though you have to share your to get a prescription, it's more of a diagnosis. Taylor: Right. Jenny Gumm: It's not an exploration per se. Where with therapy it's much more of a vulnerable exploration. Taylor: And it's like harder to put on a chart what's going on in a therapy session. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: So yeah, so the patient's paying and the therapist needs money to pay rent and feed themselves, and it's their job. And every job is a job at the end of the day, with its pros and cons and stresses and de-stresses, whatever. So not only are you in a vulnerable position as the patient, but you can be vulnerable as a therapist in the desire to keep your patient so that you can pay for your life. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. And I think that that leads to the hard part about being a human is that we don't know you can have the best intentions that you're gonna stay clean and that you would never continue a relationship with a patient if it, you know, if they were ready to leave or any number of reasons. And then we're also humans in that we have to survive. And then we all have that. And sometimes it's very difficult because of how we're wired to separate those things. And then I think part of the payment, but then there's also, especially in our society, is this sets up a power dynamic. And so we also know that as humans, we're super hierarchical. And so anytime we're in a power dynamic, then the person with the power always has a little bit more. control of the situation and also responsibility, I think, in the situation to make sure that things are that it people are getting what they need. Taylor: Yeah. Yeah, I think something that happened for me was I had a disagreement on what would be the best course of action for me, like timing-wise with therapy. And I trusted them that they knew me better than myself because of this Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: dynamic, because I don't know what's best for my mental health. If I did, I wouldn't need a therapist. And at the end of the day, I think That my therapist was wrong and that I was right. But in the moment I just deferred to their authority because I felt that of course I don't know. How could I know? I'm the one that has issues. They're the expert. It's like when the doctor tells you to go on antibiotics, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: you know? You want to trust that they have they do and they probably do have your best interests at heart, but it's really easy to just almost defer to them instead of yourself, which Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: is kind of the opposite of what you want in therapy. Like you wanna learn to trust yourself. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. it's mostly best cases about self-exploration and learning how to be in the world. And I do think that there, you know, there's a variety of reasons. I don't think that there's a start, you know, to your point an exact stop date on anything, because I think it really depends on the therapist and the individual and what you're looking for. However, I do think that Maybe in what we both talked about is if you set things up from the beginning a little bit or set Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: some ground rules, which doesn't tend to has I well, I shouldn't say that I did I did go to a therapist one time who was very clear. We set goals, what we were working on, said, you know, let's try this many sessions and then we can regroup. And so in that case, it was super easy because everything was laid out. We knew exactly what we're working on. And then we had a check in point to where we could decide. And at that point, the what I really needed help with was resolved. And so there I think there are ways around it. And I I think I was glad I had that experience. Although ironically, in other cases, I did not set things up that way. so I didn't learn. I because I worked with other therapists who didn't do that. And then yeah, so I don't know. Yeah. Taylor: Is that on you though? I think that's the question, right? Is it on you as the patient to set things up? I guess in some ways. Sure. But I I guess I have a hard time wanting to put that much pressure on patients. And sure, you had had a prior experience with a therapist who did do that. So maybe you're you would know what to ask for. But I bet a lot of people who go to therapy for the first time, they don't even have a concept of being able to ask for that. So I kind of feel that it should be more standard practice to set up here's how we're gonna here even if the first time you s let them know how they can end it, like what your ideal process as a therapist would be to end sessions. I think that would Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: take a lot of pressure off because I don't I I don't think that a patient should just be like babied through everything. But they're not a professional. They didn't go to school for this. They're coming to someone with a problem. I do think it's on the professional to have more information and to be more proactive with like the rules of engagement. Jenny Gumm: Well, and I think too, especially because if you're coming to somebody in crisis, like I said, even though I had that experience when the next time I was in, I was in crisis. So it never occurred to me to think to think through. I mean, it ended up great and fine and all that, but to exactly to your point is a person in crisis is not the person who's gonna be putting those guardrails in place. And talking through the process necessarily, because they're just there because they really need support and help. And Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: so, and I do think with the power dynamic to your point, especially in our system, doctors are put on such a pedestal for a Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: time. variety of reasons that the patient generally is going to follow what the doctor is saying. And to your point, even with the best interest in mind, and I'm sure your therapist did have that. Without any rules of engagement, it makes it so difficult to disengage. Taylor: Yeah, yeah, I I felt stressed about it. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I I think there is this the way we're talking about the sort of professionalism that goes with the therapist, I think when we I was doing the research at least for this episode, a lot all of it basically is from the therapist point of view. And something that kept bothering me was the emphasis on the care and attention to the therapist, which makes sense because When you're looking at research, when you're looking at stuff, there's always a point of view. Nothing Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: is really unbiased in our world. But I just kept brushing up against bad feelings that I do think professionalism does need to be involved. And just because you're getting into an intimate conversation with someone, it is more of a one sided intimacy, right? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Because you don't know anything about this person. Maybe they'll tell you a little bit, but at the end of the day they know your trauma. You might know that they're married or that one time Jenny Gumm: Right. Taylor: they fought with their sister or something. You know what I mean? it's not Jenny Gumm: Well, it's false intimacy because it's not reciprocal. Taylor: Yes. It's like the Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: only person you can go to a meeting and not ask them how their day is, and that's appropriate for the interaction. Jenny Gumm: Yes. Exactly. And I think what happens and where a different topic a little bit, but where that changes, then the dynamic changes. Because part of what they're doing is holding space for you to say the things you can't say to somebody else. Sometimes it's just like when I started a year ago. I guess it's been a couple of years ago. It was because I didn't want to be the person that everybody that I called didn't want to pick up the phone because I was going through a tough Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: time. And so I did. I needed to find and that was great because I could say all the things that I needed to say and I could work through them and I didn't have to censor myself and all of those things. So I think that's the other, but Maybe that's another part of it. There's intimacy. They also aren't seeing the whole picture of your life either. So you're not seeing all almost any of them. And they it's a very specific, usually, I mean it can cover broad swashes of your life. And it's usually around specific things that you're working on. Taylor: Yeah, something I just thought about is that it's also very skewed towards negativity. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Yeah, you don't go to usually Taylor: Yeah, basic Jenny Gumm: you're not doing your gratitude list while you're in. Taylor: Yeah, but that's gonna put a really big spin Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: on the view of a person that a therapist gets. I Jenny Gumm: Yeah, do you I don't do you I don't think you remember this, but it was when you were in high school and you called me and you and it had been like a few days in a row and you were upset. And I just remember sitting down on the stairs in the house I was living, we were living in the time, and asking you, okay, I need to know is this 10 is it what I'm hearing 10% of your life or 90? Because depending on If I'm just the person you're calling and it's 10% and you need somebody to listen, I'm all in. If it's 90%, then I need to take another course of action. However, I've never had a therapist ask me that. Like I mean, they do because the Taylor: Well I'm sure they know. Jenny Gumm: way you say the problem. But to your point, I hadn't thought about that either. But generally, you're not speaking about, you know, assuming you're lucky enough to have a lot of. other good things in your life. And often it's more about I think having them help you manage and cope and learn yourself. Taylor: Exactly. You don't need help being so happy that the sun shined on you today. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Like you can process I think it's so much easier to process happy emotions ourselves than more Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: complicated ones. But I mean, of course a therapist is gonna know that that's the only side they're getting. That's part of their training, I'm sure. I guess I just didn't think about it until y I heard you speak that wow, they're really only getting the worst Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: parts of your day. And that is that is one that's a very specific picture of someone is just their worst parts. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. And then understanding because they're really in a position of care. Understanding how I mean, also what I imagine is hard for them is like the seriousness of some of the things that people bring and then how being able to understand how to best care for the person based on that too. So I mean, no doubt their job is difficult. Taylor: Hard. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Horror, horror, yeah. And I think that's problem that to me, based on the research you did, would show why, and I imagine people who go into this profession are really wanting to help people. Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: and they do, even though maybe the vulnerability isn't reciprocal, I do think that most of the therapists I've met, and I would imagine this is true for most of them, genuinely have a vested interest in the well-being of their patients. Taylor: And it is you do take on other people's trauma in some way, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: on purpose or not, any sort of service job. you are having to take on feelings, like other people's feelings in some way. And that that is hard and I think in one of the articles I read the guy was saying That sometimes it's hard for therapists to want to get rid of their clients that are okay because it's like a break. It's like Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: a job that's not gonna leave you feeling really bad at the end. And again, I had some complicated thoughts about it, but because I it made me think, well, it's really easy for people Who can afford therapy to just Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: keep going forever. I have a friend who wants to have like maintenance therapy for the rest of her life because she likes to check in once a month. And I think that's awesome because it helps her so much. And she has such a good relationship with her therapist, and it makes a huge difference in her life. But Most people don't have the money to add Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: that expense into their life. And I feel that probably, I mean, don't don't have research on this, but probably the people who don't have access to this type of care or don't have the money to it need it more. Jenny Gumm: Often probably, or maybe not, more or less, I would guess that there are a lot of people who it would really, really help and be supportive of and who cannot, even if they have insurance, cannot access it because it's too expensive. Taylor: Or they have a limited supply of therapists that they can go to, so they can't do Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: the shopping around, which that's a whole other thing is that if you want to talk to multiple therapists, you're paying for each session. But if your Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: insurance only gives you a couple, then you're really incentivized to just go with whatever one for the sessions you're allowed. But what if that's not a good therapist? Jenny Gumm: Right. Taylor: You don't even have the ability to find the one that might be the most helpful to you because you're stuck with whatever and it could end up good, but you d have no guarantee of that. Yes. Jenny Gumm: But it's by luck, not by design, that you're getting the right person. Taylor: And a bad therapist can do a lot of harm. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Like we, of course, we've had any negative experience we've had has been we know that they had good intentions. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: And the problem was not the fact that they were doing actual harm to us. But you can have that is a possibility. You can have therapists. I know friends who have had been harmed by interactions with therapists and that is a true part of it too is like just like every other type of job there's people who are very bad at it and if Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: you don't have choice you're put even more vulnerable with who might be taking care of you. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. And I do think if you don't, this whole access piece is so big because if you're in a crisis or you're really needing help and you don't have anybody to go to, it just can have such impact on your entire life. And then we've set up a we've set up systems where we make it hard for the most vulnerable. I mean, you and I are very lucky. We are privileged Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: to have access to the way we do, to know the people we do because we can get referral, you know, those types of things. But if you don't have that and you're vulnerable, I feel like the other part of this is is there a whole population that really needs therapy that would be happy if they were having to figure out how to quit because they'd gotten help and assistance Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: that just never even gets the help that they need because they we don't always have Our society isn't always set up for people to do that and our systems are not. And then to your point, go ahead. No, go ahead. Taylor: No, go ahead. Jenny Gumm: I was gonna say, and then if they're vulnerable and they only have the choice of one and then that person isn't a good fit, i I think it can be even more it more harmful than good. Taylor: Yeah, and we can say we wish therapy could be cheaper or that therapists charge less, but again it goes back to the fact that it's a job. And we already have such a devaluation of service jobs in our country. And I don't want to say that they shouldn't be paid what they're worth. I know therapists a lot of them have sliding scale spots, but they're always limited because just the way the system's set up, there's just you have to eke out a living. I mean, if you're getting mega rich from being a therapist, maybe you should reconsider what you're doing. Jenny Gumm: a few more pro bono clients. Yeah. Taylor: Maybe you should do some soul searching because I don't know that you should be able to get filthy rich off Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: other people's mental health. But like people do have to again pay rent, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: feed themselves, like take care of their families. So it is you would hope that we could have a more robust insurance system, but I mean we can barely have that for like basic medical care. So I don't totally see Jenny Gumm: Yeah. although things Taylor: Changing. Jenny Gumm: have changed. It it's slow. I mean, I've seen changes in my lifetime. I mean, I don't know because I can't remember when I was first Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: on insurance, but I don't think there was any coverage. And so things have changed. I think to your point, our point isn't that therapists should work for free to create more access. I think the point is is how do we recognize that it is an important service. To your point, if therapists had a different way of getting paid, it could take some of this dynamic out of Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: because if they knew there was a certain amount of income or there was a certain, you know, different things, then losing patients wouldn't be such a a risk to them either. Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: because to your point, it is if that is their livelihood, it does make a difference. and most of them, I would I mean, there are, I'm sure there There are many that are on staff and those types of things. But for independent people or working in a practice, they have to, there's no way for them not to consider that. Taylor: Totally. You can't fault someone for wanting to make a living. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Especially right now, but it would be disingenuous to have the conversation without acknowledging the access issues that this all provides. And yeah, our privilege for our struggles are how to get out of it, not get into it. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Or to find people or you know anyway, yeah. No, I think that we've been fortunate, even if we've had some angst about breaking up. Taylor: what do you think about we talk you talked about it a little bit at the beginning, but kind of the change in how it used to be embarrassing to talk about mental health, and now you have teens self-diagnosing themselves with like b borderline personality disorder on TikTok. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, well I think it's most things as you go from we won't even say the word and people did p it was so bad that people wouldn't even share in their their families if somebody had severe depression. sometimes you found out because I'm my in my family we have severe depression, but it was we found out because people were hospitalized. No one wanted to talk to them about it, but Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: like you can't ignore that somebody So that was on one end, which meant a lot of people, if they had just known that there was a history, probably would have been, things would have been caught sooner or they would have had a better understanding. To now, yeah, we're all self-diagnosing ourselves with a bunch of stuff daily, both from health and mental health. I think ironically, it's on the path to the middle ground. Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: Because you if you start over here where there's not even a conversation and then you move to where everybody's diagnosing. I do think we have to be careful though, just my personal opinion that when we start labeling things, it can get a little dicey because then we start to identify with something. And then that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so that's why I think this access piece is really important. And I also think that the fact that we're having more conversations about it and it's okay. And I think maybe working in corporate America for a long time, one of the things I appreciate is that like everybody doesn't show up to work the same every day. And that people don't aren't robots. And so we don't walk into the office. And, when I started working, it was like, leave, leave your personal life and yourself at the door. Literally, that was what was said, which we know was never real. you can say Taylor: Wow. Yeah. Jenny Gumm: anything you want. To now, I think all the awareness is actually helping to create. Where people can be honest, and then people that are leading and managing can be better support. And when people Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: feel better supported, they naturally are able to show up differently. Because the other thing is if you are always high, it takes energy to hide things. Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: And so how able are we to show up for other people and even if you think about it from an employment perspective for a job, if we're pushing everything under the rug. That's usually, I think, what leads to something going haywire as opposed to if we can have conversations about it, then at least there's a possibility for understanding. Taylor: Yeah, I wanna say one quick thing on labels Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: because I know you're super anti label. Jenny Gumm: I know I have a living. Taylor: But I do think it is a double edged sword because it can Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: either box you in or set you free. Because I do think, like if you find out something about yourself and all the weird quirks about yourself that you thought you had to change. are just you're able to understand them as something that's intrinsically a part of you that can be freeing because you can learn to work with it versus try to suppress it, I think in some ways. But at the same time, obviously it can become a box where you don't let yourself grow beyond it. But I think that's one of those things that's in d like it can change. Jenny Gumm: And I'm probably using labeling wrong because I think naming something, because until we can name something for ourselves, it's to your point. I mean, like I've learned I one of the best things, I mean, and the worst things I learned is that I have anxiety. But I didn't know I had anxiety until I was Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: talking to you one time and you were explaining something. And I'm like, I've had that every day of my life. I just thought that that's how I was. And I have like I probably have one of the best coping systems of any human alive. So just by being Taylor: Yes, definitely. Jenny Gumm: able to do that to your point, I was like, okay, I am not anxiety. That would be a label to me. Like, I am not Taylor: Okay. Jenny Gumm: that. I have. I that's where I guess I'm making the I don't think we I I always am fearful that when we label people that we are we are making them smaller. We all are a multitude. So I guess that's the nuance I have. But I have anxiety. Like I'm all that Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: is different. And that was freeing for me. And it also Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: allowed me to recognize, like actually to give myself a tiny bit of credit for wow, lady, you've been coping. Pretty good. and I and I don't think and I think it would have been so much easier for me, to your point, if I had known that sooner, because I probably would have done some things differently. And it wouldn't have I feel like part of what it did was isolate me to some extent because it wasn't something I could talk to anybody about. Or I didn't feel like I could. I probably could have, but I didn't feel like Taylor: Yeah, because when we're in the world, even with like we're we're making the world sound so peachy, but at the end of the day, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: you're really still it they might be a little bit more understanding at work, but mostly no. Like we do live especially in America, like you are what you produce. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: like and you are expected to show up and be able to do your work no matter what. and that's just the way that it is. And so when you live in a society like that, it can be hard. It's basically impossible to live up to that standard. Like Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, because we're not, we can't some days. And Taylor: Ha ha. Jenny Gumm: we all I mean, I suppose if you set a very, very, very low bar, maybe you can be consistent every day with hitting it. but that's not what life is either. And so to your point, I I think we still have a long way to go. and so talking about it and having it be in the vernacular and having people even under I mean, some of these things people didn't we didn't even have names for before. Taylor: Yeah, that's crazy. Jenny Gumm: Or we d or maybe a few people, but it just was I mean, we were we have as a as an American society, it's especially at work. What have you done for me lately? It's you know, here's the hours, here's the productivity, here's the expectation. And Taylor: And only the boss gets to put their shit on other people. Jenny Gumm: Yes, that is true. Although you know that's a whole other podcast about how I feel about the responsibility of the boss. Taylor: Yeah, but I the boss is always expecting you to be productive, but I think we've all had bosses yell at us because they're probably having a bad day. And every underling is thinking, I could never act like this. I could never just lose my shit. Jenny Gumm: Yes. And then though I wonder though I wonder though how many of them when they become the boss do. So yeah. Taylor: I probably all. I mean Jenny Gumm: Probably all. Taylor: power is it's a a hell of a drug. Jenny Gumm: Well, a higher it's a hierarchy. Yeah, it is. And it's an and it's a part of the system. It's the high companies are hierarchies and we're hierarchical. So yeah. I know. I always think it's funny because my career has done these ups and downs, and I'm always super grateful for it because just when I might feel myself getting a little bit that way, I pr I probably took a Taylor: Ha ha ha. Jenny Gumm: jaw or I was back down and it was always like, yeah, I have to remember. this is this is what it's really like. This is which we've gotten a little bit off topic, but I do think that that To your point, the vernacular and just being able to talk about it. And maybe it's gone too far. But it's better than not talking about it at all. I know that for sure. Taylor: Yeah, I think there should be more focus on how other things affect your life and that should be more thought of in jobs. I think that would be a huge benefit to our society. I think we can talk about it all we want, but I don't I haven't seen it being implemented into anyone I know's workspace. Jenny Gumm: Either. Taylor: And I guess yes, we got a little off topic with work, but I think that is probably the field where this could make the biggest change. Jenny Gumm: Me too. Taylor: Because if you go through a month because someone died in your family and you can't show up at work, you could get fired. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. most companies have a three so think like your mom dies and you get three days off. Taylor: Yeah, that's just not enough time to process that in that and I guess that's Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: like I guess part of the reason going back to therapy, part the reason we rely on therapy so much is because we need an outlet Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: for all these feelings and thinking about a human being, what they go through in a day, they have their job, if you're a parent, you're not able to take your stress out on your child like or you shouldn't. You can. You Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, or i it if you're lucky, you this is a great outlet for that because it you can Taylor: Yes. Jenny Gumm: share your frustrations. And I think the other part, it can be helpful. I mean, we talked about the negativity, and I think that there are there's some research and we looked a little bit about that, that sometimes negativity can be a loop. I also think part of the help is that sometimes we're thinking something in our head, and just when we say it out loud, even just that expression of it helps us see it differently and helps us recognize which parts like which parts are what's really hurting and which parts we've just Taylor: which Jenny Gumm: Spiraled. Yeah. Taylor: parts we've just decided we're gonna focus on, like beating the dead horse. Yeah, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Yeah. Taylor: I wonder, so we can obviously see the utility in therapy and even thinking about the work thing, which I don't I just it really blows my mind to think about how much damage work does to all of us, but It is having a therapist is such a good tool to have to diffuse those negative feelings and to learn tools on how to self soothe. But I think at the end of the day, the hope is that you will get to the self soothing part. The Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: point where you don't need to pay someone to say, I wanna kill my family Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: if they wake me up before five AM one more time. Like you should be able to, you know, like Dig deep and figure out ways to help yourself through it, barring serious mental illness. But for most people, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: just the maintenance therapy. You did some research on like how long do you stay in therapy? Because Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: that that was a question I had. Like, I was in therapy for two years. I was like, what is when am I healed? Probably never in reality. But like Jenny Gumm: Never. Taylor: What is there's and again, we're not medical professionals, but I just am interested in what you found. Jenny Gumm: So what I found interestingly enough is that, and I'm looking at this, there is a front-loaded curve in a study they did. granted, it's hard to, I mean, some of the first studies were done in 1977. Taylor: Okay, yeah. Jenny Gumm: that most and then that it was at 75% of untreated people, 75%. Of people who went to therapy were better off than untreated. But there was some research done that found that measurable improvements happened in a cup like thir for 30% of the patients in two sessions. And then, Taylor: Wow. Jenny Gumm: you know, it kept going up to like to 75% by 26%. So Taylor: Okay. Jenny Gumm: there's somewhere in there, you know, between you will even if you can do I mean think this goes to probab my guess is this is some of and probably more studies than this to where some of the insurance things have been. Because most if you like have a system that is for like if an incident happens, you will have three to ten sessions per incident is usually what it is. So you can tell that insurances Taylor: Interesting. Jenny Gumm: probably use some of this because then so they're using that range, that three to ten per occurrence. Well, no. No, but Taylor: Well, that makes me feel icky that it's for the insurance, but Jenny Gumm: I mean, I don't know if the study was done for insurance, but my guess is is it because as they're trying to do that to figure out how much treatment you need, it's always based on something. Taylor: Right. Jenny Gumm: but again, I think where the research is gonna fall down is it's gonna depend on the person. To your point, you have a friend who wants to go monthly for as long as they can. I mean, or I'm guessing as long as it helps them. Other people, like when I when my dad died, I did eight sessions, but it was I was working on something very specific. And so Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: I think it kind of comes back to. Being clear and you talked to me a little bit about this, that you weren't necessarily clear what you were hoping to get out of it. Taylor: No, I I went into therapy so uninformed. I went in with no idea, which I just kind of had been self fixing for so long and just was like, I'm turning thirty. I wanna solve my problems. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I went in very naively, I guess, is the right way to say it. And I think that's why I bristle against so much of what we've talked about that I just feel that there does need to be some acknowledgement of the rules of engagement in therapy, no matter what, because I think it can be really easy to just get stuck doing something and maybe not even know what a measure of it helping you could even be. And I don't I don't know if therapists would even know how to do that. And I definitely just didn't know what it could do for me, what I should be looking for with it. And I think having that sort of up in the air vague structure, at least for me, made it almost impossible to understand what I was supposed to be doing or how I could get out of it. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Or what you could get out of it or how. both. It ended up how to get Taylor: Both. Jenny Gumm: out, but yeah. Taylor: Both because I something that helped me at the beginning so much became something I resented. It became my Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: most resented part of my week was paying to sit there and not get anything out of it. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: which is not fair really to either of us because it's like a waste of everyone's time. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: So I do wonder how we could or I at least I implore therapists, if they hear this, to think about that when setting up these relationships, especially with new to therapy people. And maybe getting a feel for what they want or even pushing the patient to figure out that this is like a treatment in a lot of ways. Jenny Gumm: Yes, I was gonna say, I think we forget about that. When you go on antibiotics, they're like the course is seven days. If this is not happening in seven days, you need to come back. I don't know that we can do that because mental health is much more complicated. And and to your point though, I think if we look at it more as a it is a form of treatment because the point is to support another human being Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: in what whether everybody's goals are going to be different. However, I think at a minimum working with the patient to understand and maybe their goals will change over time. Because to your point, you may have gone in with a I'm 30, I gotta fix this, to Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: something else. But if you were having that ongoing conversation Even though it's not measurable, both the therapist and the patient would continue to have an understanding of what's happening as a result Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: of the treatment. Taylor: Yeah, and I I will say, I know when I was trying to do my breakup, you were telling me I needed to do it in person. And I after all the research I have read, I have come to the conclusion that you are right. I should have gone in person. What I did instead was create a situation where I could have the last session I was willing to do. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: And then I emailed and said, I'm done. And yeah, I I now, after talking it out with you, doing the research, realized that was wrong. But I also kind of wanted to put it in here in case other people Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: have not gone in and told their therapist I should admit that I just sent an email. And then when my therapist Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: was like, we should really collaborate on this, I just said no. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well and I think yeah. And Taylor: I don't want to Jenny Gumm: that but that and yeah. And so I mean, the right way, you know, yeah. I think you could have gone in and done it collaboratively. And I think the research would say that that's preferable. I think both for the patient and for the therapist, Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: because in that situation you can come up with a, hey, here's some let's just remind you of the tools, or you can have Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: a better Just closure of the process because you have made yourself vulnerable. I also can say, though, from talking to you about it, that for a lot of the reasons that we talked about at the beginning of this podcast, to do that would have been really, really difficult based on the circumstances that led up to you doing that. Taylor: And I will say sh like they they didn't tell me what the ending should be like until I sent that Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: email. So I had already decided in my mind I'm never seeing this person again before Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I even knew what their expectation would be to end. And so Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I guess I probably could have intuited it be but When you see media about this. Jenny Gumm: No, there's too much research that says how even from the therapist perspective, because most of it is, everything you found is that this isn't this is not something that has been looked at and solutions created for it. It is something that is a quandary for people, for even the therapists. Taylor: And I feel like you always hear about people just sending an email Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: and so I didn't know. And I do think yeah, that's why I have such a strong feeling that all these things should be really talked about up front. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. No, and the therapist that I took the time, which I was glad I did, to go to it was over Zoom, but to go and explain and quit told me how much they appreciated it because so many people didn't even bother with an email, honey. So many people just ghost them. And so I can imagine Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: how like that's where it it is both sides. I I see it too. And I do Taylor: Honestly, I wish I could have ghosted. So I see it. Even sending the e Jenny Gumm: know. That it was appreciated that I did not, yeah. Taylor: I think it's yeah, I think it's just you're in such this whole getting into therapy, getting out of therapy, all of it's really complicated and obviously neither of us are therapists, so we don't know what it's like to Jenny Gumm: No. Taylor: have all your patients ghost you. I'm sure it I mean, I can assume it doesn't feel good because having anyone leave your life suddenly is terrible. Jenny Gumm: With no explanation, yeah, not good. Not not easy even, you know, even if it's people that we're not interacting with on a regular basis. Taylor: But I think so much of the way that therapy is presented to us, or a lay the casual person is very, you know, it's casual. You see it in media, people are like, my therapist said this, my therapist said that. They're not your friend, but it's almost seems like it. I know that sounds Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: makes me sound like I don't know anything. Like I was born yesterday, but I do I think it's important to say how truly nothing I knew about what therapy should be Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: at 29 years old and getting into it. And I think that that sets up kind of the casual dynamic that feels like this never-ending thing where you're just paying money and you're thinking, Am I even getting my money's worth? Why am I paying $200 every week to this person? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Do I need to be doing this? How do I get out of it? Am I getting better? Am I not getting better? And I think that lack of clarity is kind of perpetuates that idea. At least it definitely did in my head. And I'm guessing other people have the same like feelings and situation pop up for them. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: And I just think. I don't wanna implement standards on therapists and do anything 'cause I'm just me, but I do feel Jenny Gumm: Yeah, no, I agree. Taylor: I just feel like there could be some changes that make it better all the way around. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, I think just so people know what they're getting into a little more. and I and I imagine, I mean, depending on how you end up. Yeah, a therapist, to your point, there are a lot of different entry points. But at some point, just like a ch I mean, sometimes it's, you know, depending on your job or your role. And if you've been through something, you may have it be where it's recommended, or you have in those cases, I think it can be clearer. But to your point, if it's just I'm gonna start because I have this thing going on or this way of being in the world. It's really hard without some at least an initial conversation. And like Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: I said, that's why I can appreciate at the time I went, we had that. It worked very well. I didn't feel any angst or anything. I also knew if something came up again that I could call this person and that I could make an appointment. Again, it wasn't acute. I wasn't in, I mean, I was It was a situation I was working with, but it wasn't I wasn't in extreme distress. but that situation I didn't have any angst at any time. I personal angst, but no angst about the relationship. And so to your point, I think it can be really helpful for people. Well, for any of us, if we know what we're getting into, it just generally tends to make the outcome better. Taylor: Yeah, and I think it's so individual that it goes back to Jenny Gumm: It is. Taylor: the thing that is overarching everything we're saying is that therapy can be so amazing, but the therapist that's good for me is probably not gonna be good for someone else, and vice Jenny Gumm: Right. Taylor: versa. And so the fact that the system is so limiting and so cost prohibitive Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: and has all these like Negative incentives baked into it is the problem. therapists Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: and patients are not really the problem. Even if sometimes we don't behave our absolute best. It is really just the fact that we live in this system that is not set up to help either party. Jenny Gumm: No, that's not ideal for either per the patient or the therapist. And so consequently, I would say in general, people are probably doing the best that they can. And systematically, though, there are probably some changes that could be made that would actually improve things for both parties. Because the therapist, if they're an independent therapist, is largely dependent on having patients so they can ha you know. have what they need and then a p that can lead them to certain types of behaviors potentially. And if a patient walks in not knowing what they're up to, to your point, you know, if we can measure outcomes for other treatments, I think it makes it hard for the patient to know if they're improving. Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Well, someone smarter than us can solve these problems. We can just point out the problem. Jenny Gumm: Yes. We can talk about it. both of us kind of started in one place. We came in kind of hot around the, you know, power dynamics and some of the other things. And I think when we started talking about this, and I think like most things, we're finding that it is in the nuance and it's taking Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: peeling back a little bit and really understanding that there are always more sides to things when you start to really look at them. Taylor: Yeah, and it's it's so easy to wanna blame a person. So I think Jenny Gumm: It's yeah. Taylor: yeah, it's it's it's nice to be able to take it back a few steps and look at the system rather than the actual people involved because it doesn't feel good to put animosity towards a person. So Jenny Gumm: It does not. Taylor: Okay, on that note, that's what we're checking into this week. Thanks everyone for listening in.