Latest / Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza / Ep.64 - Josh Golin vs. Big Tech: Winning $170M for Kids’ Safety | Internet Protection | Kids Online Protection | DigitalDetox

Transcript

Ep.64 - Josh Golin vs. Big Tech: Winning $170M for Kids’ Safety | Internet Protection | Kids Online Protection | DigitalDetox · Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza

• 0:00
  Golin, you are the executive director of Fairplay.
• 0:03
  What do you do there? Sure.
• 0:06
  So Fairplay is a national advocacy organization that works
• 0:12
  to make the Internet less addictive and safer for young
• 0:17
  people. We got our start around being
• 0:21
  very concerned about marketing to children directly and have
• 0:26
  come to understand that the spaces that children are spend
• 0:31
  so much of their time online have really been built for
• 0:34
  marketers and for for advertisers to reach children
• 0:38
  and to collect their data. And as a result, that's really
• 0:42
  made the things like social media so addictive and so
• 0:45
  unsafe. And so we're really trying to
• 0:47
  change that business model through corporate campaigns,
• 0:50
  through advocating for legislation, and by using
• 0:54
  existing laws and regulations in order to force companies to
• 0:58
  change their behaviors. What kind of successes have you
• 1:01
  experienced in that so far? We've had a number of of really
• 1:06
  big successes, I think a few that I can mention.
• 1:10
  So for instance, we filed a Federal Trade Commission
• 1:14
  complaint against Google about five years ago documenting that
• 1:19
  they were illegally collecting children's data on YouTube.
• 1:24
  And that led to significant restrictions on how on how
• 1:29
  Google collects data from children on YouTube, as well as
• 1:32
  in 170 million dollar fine for YouTube.
• 1:34
  So that's an example of how we work through the FTC to force
• 1:37
  changes. A few years ago, it was
• 1:40
  announced that Meta was going to release a version of Instagram
• 1:44
  for little kids. And we organized over 100,000
• 1:50
  parents, leading pediatricians and psychologists and teachers,
• 1:56
  over 40 state attorneys general to say to Mehta, you absolutely
• 2:01
  should not do this. This will be incredibly harmful
• 2:03
  to, to have young kids on Instagram.
• 2:06
  And we were able to stop them from releasing that product.
• 2:09
  So that was a, that was a huge win.
• 2:11
  And on the on the legislative front, I wouldn't say that it
• 2:15
  was a 100% victory, but we have not had new legislation to
• 2:19
  protect children online in more than 25 years.
• 2:22
  Last year, we were able to get the Kids Online Safety Act and
• 2:27
  an update to the Children's Online Privacy and Protection
• 2:30
  Act through the Senate by a 91 to 3 vote, which is the first
• 2:34
  time legislation like that has passed the Senate in in 25
• 2:39
  years. Unfortunately, we came up short
• 2:41
  with the House at the end of the year, but I think it just shows
• 2:44
  kind of the power that we're building and the fact that this
• 2:47
  is a bipartisan issue when you pass 91 to 3 in the Senate and
• 2:51
  and some of the progress that we're making.
• 2:54
  Well, those are huge. That $170 million fine, that's
• 2:56
  enormous. And then stopping Mehta from
• 2:58
  from damaging the young kids, where, How do y'all manage that?
• 3:03
  How do y'all pull that off? I mean, I imagine it takes a lot
• 3:05
  of resources to go toe to toe with Google.
• 3:09
  Well, we, you know, we, we do a lot with a little and I think
• 3:13
  that, you know, at the time we filed that complaint against
• 3:17
  Google, we had five staff members.
• 3:19
  We're we have significantly more.
• 3:21
  We have 15 now, but still very small compared to Google.
• 3:24
  But you know, one of the things that we do is we're very careful
• 3:29
  in, in in researching and understanding what these
• 3:33
  platforms are doing. And then we really rely on the
• 3:37
  fact that we're bringing newsworthy and, and novel
• 3:43
  approaches to trying to regulate these companies or pointing out
• 3:46
  things that they're doing wrong. And so we get a ton of earned
• 3:49
  media around what we do. So, you know, if it was just us
• 3:53
  trying to get the word out, that would be really difficult.
• 3:55
  But when, you know, you're featured in the New York Times
• 3:57
  or Washington Post or Good Morning America, that greatly
• 4:01
  increases your reach. And so just being really smart
• 4:04
  about the campaigns that we bring and being media savvy to
• 4:07
  make sure that we get that media attention has allowed us to, I
• 4:11
  would say, punch above our weight.
• 4:14
  Yeah. So it sounds like you rely on
• 4:16
  external collaborators. Whether so, are there particular
• 4:20
  ones that you've developed over time that that really turned you
• 4:23
  and advocate for you? I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
• 4:28
  Are there like particular external collaborators that not,
• 4:31
  not of your, not your 15 employees, but that advocate for
• 4:35
  you or maybe do legal work or things like that?
• 4:38
  Yeah, we've had, we've been unfortunate to have a lot of
• 4:41
  amazing partners over the years. So everything that we do, we do
• 4:46
  in coalition and and you know, we try and get other groups to
• 4:49
  to join us, you know, whether it's Common Sense Media or
• 4:52
  Public Citizen or all sorts of groups that have that have a
• 4:56
  long history of advocating on these issues.
• 4:59
  But we also were fortunate when we filed that FTC complaint
• 5:03
  against against Google, we were fortunate to be working at the
• 5:07
  time with a law clinic at Georgetown that has done a lot
• 5:10
  of pro bono work for us. So that's really been helpful.
• 5:13
  And I think in the last couple of years, what has been the most
• 5:17
  amazing thing is we have something called the Children's
• 5:20
  Screen Time Action Network, where we house all of our
• 5:24
  grassroots advocates. So these can be pediatricians,
• 5:27
  psychiatrists, teachers, and a lot of parents.
• 5:32
  And these are folks who are deeply passionate about
• 5:36
  protecting children online, reducing the amount of time that
• 5:38
  kids spend online, but don't necessarily do this for a
• 5:42
  living. And so we we've created this
• 5:44
  structure where they can advocate under our umbrella.
• 5:47
  And that's been really powerful in expanding our reach.
• 5:50
  And, and, and I think most noteworthy out of that effort is
• 5:52
  we now work with a lot of families who have tragically
• 5:56
  lost their children, whose children have died because of
• 5:59
  things that have happened on social media.
• 6:01
  And they have become the most powerful spokespeople,
• 6:04
  organizers, advocates. And so when we talk about, you
• 6:09
  know, bills passing the Senate 91 to 3, that was primarily
• 6:12
  because of those parents and them going to Washington over
• 6:17
  and over again and telling their stories to lawmakers.
• 6:21
  So what personally motivates you to do this job?
• 6:25
  I think when I started doing this work, I was in grad school
• 6:32
  getting a degree in child development and I approached it
• 6:36
  that of course, everybody who is an influence in child's, a
• 6:42
  child's life, like wants what's best for children.
• 6:45
  We may not get that right as teachers or parents or or
• 6:50
  institutions. We may make mistakes, but we're
• 6:53
  starting from a place of wanting what's right for children,
• 6:56
  what's best for children. And I quickly realized that
• 7:00
  there were these enormous forces in children's lives, commercial
• 7:05
  forces, whether it was the advertisers or the producers of
• 7:08
  media or the creators of these online platforms who are
• 7:14
  agnostic about children's well-being.
• 7:16
  They don't set out to hurt children, but their number one
• 7:19
  purpose is to make money. And if there is a conflict
• 7:23
  between making money and doing what's best for children, they
• 7:26
  are going to pick making money every single time.
• 7:30
  And so it became very apparent to me that we needed an advocacy
• 7:35
  community that was standing up for kids against these
• 7:38
  tremendous forces. And it was lonely work when we
• 7:42
  started doing it. And I think over the years we've
• 7:44
  seen just a real change in how people view things like social
• 7:49
  media and how they view what's happening to kids online.
• 7:53
  And so there's a tremendous opportunity now to make change.
• 7:55
  But I am, I am motivated by if you're going to be an influence
• 8:00
  in a kids life, you should care about that kid.
• 8:03
  That's which seems like a pretty basic and and fundamental
• 8:07
  belief, but but it's not always adhered to to.
• 8:10
  And so that's why I think we need groups like Fair Play and,
• 8:13
  and all the other advocates in this space.
• 8:15
  Well, you said it seems common sense but it's not always
• 8:18
  adhered to. I just wonder why?
• 8:21
  What? What makes a difference with
• 8:22
  you? How come you're not pursuing
• 8:24
  money at the expense of children's well-being whereas
• 8:27
  other people are? That's a really interesting
• 8:31
  question. I mean, I think, you know, I
• 8:36
  mean, I think a lot of it has to do with how I was raised and my
• 8:39
  values and that and I think my own childhood was incredibly
• 8:43
  powerful for me, which was, I was one of the last.
• 8:47
  I think my generation was probably the last whose
• 8:52
  childhood was built around outdoor play and community based
• 8:56
  play and mixed age play. And you'd come home from school
• 9:00
  and you'd throw your backpack in the house and then you'd be out
• 9:03
  until it got dark or maybe even past then.
• 9:06
  And you were making up your own games.
• 9:09
  And there wasn't really a lot of money to be made off of us,
• 9:11
  right? We needed like some basic sports
• 9:13
  equipment and and and a patch of dirt in order to have fun.
• 9:19
  And I think as marketers and the media industries have started to
• 9:27
  see childhood as a place to be mined for profit is just
• 9:30
  fundamentally changed that childhood so much.
• 9:33
  And to me, kids today are really missing out on some incredible
• 9:39
  opportunities for growth and exploration and friendship and,
• 9:43
  and negotiating that, you know, when you're making up your own
• 9:47
  games and your own rules and having to negotiate those rules
• 9:50
  and, and conflict, I think it's just really important experience
• 9:54
  for kids. And then and it breaks my heart
• 9:56
  that kids aren't having that. It breaks my heart that kids,
• 10:00
  you know, you rarely go past a field and see kids playing
• 10:05
  without an adult directing the play, right.
• 10:08
  So there's a huge sort of industry around youth sports
• 10:11
  now, but just sort of pick up sports or pick up made-up games
• 10:16
  or playing pretend out in a park.
• 10:18
  You just don't see that unless it's being directed by adults.
• 10:21
  And I think, yeah, for me, that's a tragic.
• 10:25
  And we really need to get kids back to having those
• 10:28
  experiences. And we won't do that as long as
• 10:31
  kids are completely addicted to all of the media that is
• 10:34
  deliberately designed to be addicted.
• 10:37
  The childhood you described is so beautiful.
• 10:39
  Do you think we'll get back to that?
• 10:42
  I think we're starting to see, you know, particularly with
• 10:46
  books like the Anxious Generation, you know, which
• 10:49
  which has been a best seller, I think for like over a year now.
• 10:53
  I think there is a hunger for this.
• 10:55
  I think if you ask almost any parent or almost any person who
• 10:59
  works professionally with children, is there some
• 11:02
  something fundamentally wrong with how childhood is structured
• 11:06
  and and designed right now, Almost everyone will say there
• 11:09
  is. I think what the problem is, is
• 11:11
  that most people don't have hope or the imagination that things
• 11:14
  could be different. And I think that that's starting
• 11:16
  to change. I think we're starting to see
• 11:18
  that people are, are looking to organize not just against the
• 11:23
  tech companies, but also to create safe spaces and community
• 11:28
  spaces for kids to encourage parents to let let go of their
• 11:33
  children a little bit so that they can have those experiences
• 11:36
  that are driven by their kids and by other kids and by
• 11:39
  communities of kids. And I don't know that we'll ever
• 11:42
  get back to like my childhood in the late 70s, early 80s, but I
• 11:47
  think we're, we are seeing, we are seeing the opportunity and
• 11:53
  real changes happening where parents are saying we need to
• 11:57
  get create the ability for kids to have offline experiences and
• 12:01
  offline play. I.
• 12:03
  Have a lot of young parents listening to this show.
• 12:06
  What advice would you give to them so that their kids can have
• 12:10
  better shot at what you described?
• 12:12
  I think, you know, when we try and see our kids relationship
• 12:18
  with tech as only as something that affects our own family and
• 12:22
  we need our own family's rules, of course those things are
• 12:26
  important. Of course we need to put limits
• 12:28
  on our children. We shouldn't allow our kids to
• 12:30
  have phones in their bedrooms. We should delay getting our kids
• 12:33
  phones as long as we possibly can.
• 12:36
  But I think even more important than the rules that we set in
• 12:40
  our own household is how we parent in community.
• 12:43
  And these are things that need to be discussions we need to be
• 12:47
  having with other parents because you cannot get your kid
• 12:51
  a phone. You can be the one that doesn't
• 12:52
  get your kid a phone, but if everybody else is getting their
• 12:55
  kid a phone, it is really hard on your kid to be the only kid
• 13:00
  in fifth grade without a phone. It is really easy for your kid
• 13:04
  to be 1 of 15 kids in fifth grade without a phone.
• 13:08
  So having those conversations together, setting community
• 13:11
  norms, talking about what your fears and hopes are when it
• 13:15
  comes to, when it comes to technology, when it comes to
• 13:18
  things like play community, I think make all the difference.
• 13:23
  And so, you know, the tech industry would love for this to
• 13:26
  be just conversations that we have with our kids or with our
• 13:30
  partners. But when we start to parent in
• 13:33
  community, that's when we can start to make the changes that
• 13:36
  go beyond just one kid at a time.
• 13:39
  Exactly. Have you seen success with that
• 13:41
  concept of parenting with community?
• 13:44
  Absolutely. There's a program called wait
• 13:47
  until 8th where, where where parents pledge with other people
• 13:53
  in in their school to wait until at least eighth grade to get
• 13:58
  their get their child a, a cell phone.
• 14:01
  And the pledge kicks in once you get to 10 parents in in in your
• 14:06
  grade. And my understanding is that
• 14:09
  that's happening at scale all over the country.
• 14:12
  Like hundreds of thousands of parents have pledged and you
• 14:16
  know, thousands of these pledge have hit the 10, the 10 kid
• 14:19
  mark. And so they've gone into effect.
• 14:21
  And so then you all of a sudden it's a difference right between
• 14:24
  like, am I going to get my kid a phone in fifth grade and all the
• 14:29
  problems that come with it? Or am I going to be the parent
• 14:31
  who's only kid, the only kid in fifth grade who doesn't have a
• 14:34
  phone. Now all of a sudden you have
• 14:36
  thousands of communities that are saying no, every kid is not
• 14:39
  going to get a phone until 8th grade.
• 14:40
  I think that makes a tremendous difference.
• 14:43
  Yeah. Well, OK, that's an interesting
• 14:44
  concept. I didn't realize that they it
• 14:46
  doesn't kick in until you have some critical mass, which makes
• 14:49
  it easier for sure. So I'd be curious to hear your
• 14:52
  specific role as the executive director.
• 14:54
  So from the entrepreneurial side, what do you do to be an an
• 14:58
  effective executive for your team?
• 15:02
  I think the most important thing that I do is, is I hire well and
• 15:07
  then I try and get out of the way.
• 15:09
  You know, I think what's interesting for me is I started
• 15:14
  doing this work. It was just me and the founder
• 15:17
  of the organization was literally 2 of us for several
• 15:19
  years. And so you have to be able to do
• 15:22
  everything you had, you know, you had to get your hands dirty
• 15:24
  and, and everything. And I think now it's really
• 15:28
  about finding the right people, finding the the right skill sets
• 15:32
  and, and people who are who are able to drive this work much
• 15:35
  farther than when it was just two of us who were were possibly
• 15:38
  able to. You know, I see my role as as
• 15:43
  really understanding where the trends are in the tech industry
• 15:46
  and, and where, you know, where we need to be.
• 15:49
  So we're not fighting yesterday's battles, but but
• 15:51
  really fighting to protect kids into the future.
• 15:54
  Obviously fundraising for the organization.
• 15:56
  So we have the resources that we need.
• 15:58
  And, and I think, you know, one of the things that happens when
• 16:02
  you, I mean, there's no shortage of things that we could be
• 16:05
  working on when we come to attempt to work every day.
• 16:08
  There are so many commercial interests that are undermining
• 16:11
  children's well-being. And so making sure that what
• 16:15
  we're doing adds up to a coherent story, that we're not
• 16:18
  chasing every squirrel that that runs in front of us, but really
• 16:23
  thinking about where are we going to get the most bang for
• 16:26
  our buck? What is going to resonate most
• 16:28
  with the public? What are those visceral
• 16:30
  campaigns that people are going to get right out of the bat and
• 16:35
  don't aren't going to need a lot of explaining to them?
• 16:38
  Because frankly, people don't have a lot of time for you to
• 16:41
  explain things to them. It's you need to capture their
• 16:44
  attention fairly quickly. So really I see my job as as
• 16:47
  sort of helping us narrow down from from from almost infinite
• 16:51
  possibilities to to focus on those things that must that that
• 16:56
  will will be most effective and making sure that we have the
• 17:00
  resources to carry out the work that that is so important.
• 17:03
  What do you think is the single most effective low hanging fruit
• 17:08
  for you right now for your organization?
• 17:12
  I think one of the things that you're going to see us doing a
• 17:15
  lot more work on are these AI companions that are being
• 17:20
  marketed to kids, which are frequently.
• 17:24
  I mean, I think on the sort of, you know, if you have 10
• 17:27
  minutes, the longer story is like about what does it mean to
• 17:33
  transform kids and to have them have relationships with things
• 17:36
  that aren't even real and are been designed to take their
• 17:39
  money and attention. But I think, you know, the sort
• 17:43
  of 30 second story that we can be telling right now is that
• 17:46
  these chat bots are teaching kids to hurt themselves, are
• 17:50
  telling them to kill their parents, are initiating sexual
• 17:54
  conversations with children or initiating sexual conversations
• 17:58
  with adults who think they are talking to a chat bot that is a
• 18:01
  child. And I think that stuff is so
• 18:03
  viscerally horrific that we have a real opportunity as these
• 18:09
  things, you know, as, as the hype around AI that you know,
• 18:13
  it's going to solve all of our problems and, and, you know,
• 18:16
  rejuvenate the economy and get rid of all the boring jobs.
• 18:21
  I think the way that these chatbot, these AI is being used
• 18:25
  and unleashed on children is very, very concerning.
• 18:29
  And I think, you know, the fact that so many of these chat bots
• 18:33
  are sexualizing children or telling them to harm themselves
• 18:37
  makes it that low hanging fruit that we can that we can have
• 18:40
  some wins on right now. That is so dystopian.
• 18:43
  It's so dystopian. There was a huge piece just
• 18:45
  yesterday in the Wall Street Journal about Meta's AI chat
• 18:50
  bots and how they are having sexual conversations.
• 18:54
  You can like chat with a celebrity and then children will
• 18:57
  have the the chat mod will actually push the conversation
• 19:01
  to be more sexual because that's what keeps kids engaged.
• 19:04
  I'm glad to hear that the Wall Street Journal is publishing
• 19:06
  something helpful. You You had mentioned earlier
• 19:12
  that part of the reason why you do this is because the values
• 19:15
  you are raised with what? What are those values?
• 19:19
  The the values that I was raised with are speak up when you see
• 19:25
  injustice and that relationships are more important than profits.
• 19:33
  That, you know that the obviously we all need money in
• 19:40
  order to purchase necessities like housing and food and and
• 19:45
  clothing and things like that. But beyond meeting our basic
• 19:49
  needs, it's not actually money that makes us happy.
• 19:52
  It is it is it is community, it is a sense of purpose.
• 19:58
  It is living a life in in line with our values.
• 20:02
  And so to me, you know, valuing. Community and justice and and
• 20:12
  prizing the ability to speak up when we when we see injustice is
• 20:16
  is really important. I was, you know, my parents were
• 20:19
  activists, still are activists. They're in their 80s and, and,
• 20:24
  and, and I think that, yeah, I think that that had a a real
• 20:28
  impact on me. Beautiful.
• 20:30
  That's exactly right. Thank you, Josh.
• 20:33
  Thanks for what you do at Fair Play and I hope you just, I hope
• 20:35
  you continued success with that. So much was great to talk to
• 20:39
  you.