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The Study of Baptism Part 2 - Simply Christ Podcast · Simply Christ Podcast

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Welcome back to the Simply Christ podcast hosted by Leon
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Martin, along with Aaron Keaton, Melvin Martin, Andrew Schrock
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and Dan Blatz. Let's get right to it.
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Let's break. Father, we praise you tonight
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and we thank you for this opportunity to look into your
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word and to see what Your word says about all things in life.
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I mean, it doesn't matter what it is, Your word covers it all.
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And so, Father, I just pray tonight that we would go by what
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your word says and not our own opinions or our own what we
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think is true, but you have given us the ultimate truth.
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And Father, I just pray that you could guide us with your spirit
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as we go through your word and open the ears of the hearers,
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Father, and just that people can understand and see things more
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clearly, you know, because we need to understand what you want
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from us and what your your word says about all things in life
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and special about baptism tonight.
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So Father, I just thank you for sending your son Jesus to die
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for us in the cross. And we just praise you and we
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honor you and we glorify. You're so worthy of all praise
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and honor in Jesus name, Amen. Amen.
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All right, a couple of things to whatever platform you're
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watching this on, whether it's YouTube or Facebook or or later
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on the podcast or whatever, give us a like and a share that helps
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the algorithm get it out to more people around.
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Appreciate if you could do that. That would be a ministry that
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you can help out with a little bit on your end.
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So appreciate that if you could do that.
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Secondarily, I wanted to point out Dan Blatz has his channel
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called In Light of the Gospel, a YouTube channel as well as a
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podcast. I'm not even sure, Dad, you
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produce that at a podcast. Yeah, that's right.
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Yeah, but for sure the YouTube channel, he has some really good
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content. Go check that out.
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That is going to put a link in the chat.
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You sure can. Some really good stuff there.
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They had a deal on on marriage over the weekend here that was
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really good. If you don't listen that would
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you like? All right, so.
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Baptism, what's it what does it mean and how do we do it and who
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can and who can't and who should administer it, all those things.
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So we had a question over the weekend here wondering if a
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woman could perform baptism in in, you know, if that would be
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acceptable or how the Bible addresses that.
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And I don't believe that the Bible addresses that anywhere
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directly. But I'm excited to hear these
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four guys's opinions on on this since that's what we can have to
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go by probably here in this case.
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So Andrew, would you pick us off with your idea on Is it OK for a
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woman to baptize another person in water?
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Yeah, I like we discussed earlier, there is not a verse
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that I can quote and say women shoot or shoot and baptize.
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But there are verses that say let the older women teach the
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younger women and it also tell there's a clear direction about
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women's their position and authority in the church as far
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as leading in that way. Or actually, I was just reading
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that today about being silent in the church.
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And if you even have a question, wait to ask your husband at
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home. I mean, it's pretty radical like
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that. It's pretty UN American right
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now. Like a lot of a lot of female
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evangelists would really turn their snout upside down about
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that. But shit, I have no problem with
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a woman baptizing anybody except I think it might be a little
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weird if she's baptizing the guys.
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I don't know. One thing that I find
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interesting, Jesus Christ started baptizing more people
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than John and the Pharisees had to bring that out.
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And but it slips it in there that Jesus Christ himself didn't
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do the baptizing, so he had people doing it.
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So that eliminates the thing that we're talking about,
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authority. If it had to do with authority,
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then Jesus should have been doing it because that's the
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ultimate authority. So evidently Jesus didn't didn't
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even name the people that were doing the baptizing and Paul
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didn't necessarily name that either.
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So I don't think it's significant.
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I I personally think if the family wants to take their
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bleeding kit down into the water and baptize and go for it.
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Another reason I don't think women should do it for men is
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because some men are pretty big and I don't know if they fall in
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the water if she can pick them up out of the water.
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That's a large. That's good.
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I'm laughing but. It's not Scripture reference
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Andrew. You guys are cracking me up
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today. That's good.
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Yeah, Melvin. Yeah.
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So I would want to start with Matthew 28 where it says go
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there for, be there for and teach all nations baptizing them
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in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost,
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which is, you know, the Great Commission commands the same
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thing in Mark. And so I guess in my mind.
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So if we say that women can't baptize, then you're excluding
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them from the Great Commission in my view of that.
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So the Bible does not say that women should not baptize.
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And like I said earlier, if I was writing the Bible, I would
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say that women shouldn't baptize.
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But that's not what the Bible says.
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The Bible does directly say that.
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So I think too that it's OK for women to baptize other women.
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In my mind that just if if mom wants to baptize the daughter or
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or sister or whatever in Christ, then go ahead as far as women
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actually how would you say leading it or or like actually
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doing the baptism service? Maybe I would have a little bit
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of an issue with that, but actually baptizing the person.
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Sure, they they can do that because that there's nothing in
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the Scriptures against that. And obviously it seems we are
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like Nate Andrew was saying that if a woman would be baptizing
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other men, that would be kind of weird in my mind too as well.
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So yeah, that's pretty much my opinion because the Bible
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doesn't correctly speak to it. But.
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I have another thought that I was going to share.
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So my sister in law's have been in another country was over in
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Iraq somewhere where they were evangelizing, they were
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baptizing some Muslims and the women there were not comfortable
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being touched by a man to have him baptize them.
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So they so my sister-in-law actually did it and I thought
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that was pretty neat that, you know, over there.
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I guess. I mean, it's Muslim culture, I
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guess for the the opposite sex not to be so interactive in the
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way and it might have its positive and negatives
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connotations to that or whatever, but I think that was
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very appropriate. Yeah, that's good.
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Thanks for adding up, Dan. Mine obviously, like the rest of
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you, is kind of opinion, but I would like to think our opinions
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have been shaped and formed by the things that we read in the
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Scriptures. There is a major problem in
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American, Canadian modern contemporary Christianity where
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a pastor is ordained, but it's not usually a pastor.
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It's a pastor couple. And they're like this power team
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where there's a male pastor and a female pastor.
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There's the men's pastor and there's women's pastor, there's
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the male church and there's the female church.
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And I think where you see where we're going with this, I don't
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believe that there are any women pastors in the New Testament.
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I don't believe there's any women elders in the New
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Testament. There's some arguments to be
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made here and there, but I think most of them could be dismissed
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pretty readily based on following the text of the
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Scripture carefully and looking at history and all that kind of
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stuff. So I don't think there's any
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room, as far as I can tell, for female pastors.
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And so if it is a matter of authority and that kind of
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thing, or well, I would like a woman to be my pastor, then I
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think, well, you've missed something here.
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You, you in church, all the all the people, men, women,
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children, they're all under the authority of the elders of the
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church, the bishops and deacons, all of them.
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The men, the women, the children, everybody.
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And if you have a question, ask your husband at home.
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But there is no such thing as well, then just go to the female
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pastor and find out what the women think it.
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It can so easily get Askew this way where there's a women's
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night. They'll have it once every two
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or three weeks, whatever it might be.
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And you find that they have a whole different set of teaching.
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And they got women preachers that come in, women authors that
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teach things that are contrary to what the men are teaching.
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And they're teaching theology and in depth doctrine from a
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more feminine perspective, a more emotional perspective
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perspective often. And so I know I'm getting a
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little off course here, but I feel like there should be some
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caution here to be like, OK, well, clearly women shouldn't be
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leading a service like this, I don't think.
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But again, if you're in a strange place where there is no,
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like we talked about before, Elizabeth Elliott doing ministry
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when there were no men present, I remember I hear reading a
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testimony about in the days of William Booth and the Salvation
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Army, there was two men walking down the street and I heard a
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woman preaching in the in the park.
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And the one man says, what a shame that the woman's
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preaching. And the other guy said, what a
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shame that there isn't any men doing the preaching.
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And so, you know, like there are opportunities.
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There are situations where women are more readily available.
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You know, God used Deborah in the Old Testament for something
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that men just were not rising to the occasion of.
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It wasn't because Deborah was necessarily, you know, called to
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that. It was the men were not doing
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it. So somebody that had the the the
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guts to do it had to rise to the occasion.
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And so again, it's kind of opinion, but I do think we need
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to stay away from the whole women pastor mentality.
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Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
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I agree. I just and I did and I would go
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a little further, I guess and and here again, I'm not we said
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this before we started. I don't have acknowledge we
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don't have a command of the Lord.
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I've read that first before we started that First Corinthians
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725 where Paul's talking about virgins.
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He says I have no commandment of the Lord yet I give my judgment
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as one that obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
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So that's I'm going to give my judgment.
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But but I do think and I said this before, we are using
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authority when we baptize because we are baptizing in the
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name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, right?
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I mean, if you look back and find that there were several
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instances, Acts, or I mean Matthew 2819 that you all
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mentioned, when he gives the Commission, he says baptized in
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the name of the Father, Son, the Holy Ghost.
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Acts 238 he says baptize the name of the Lord Jesus.
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Acts 812 in the name of Acts 1048 in the name of.
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Acts 19 five in the name of and then Paul references it in First
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Corinthians 13 and 15. He just asked it, did you get
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baptized in my name or was you baptized in the name of Paul?
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So I would say there is an authority aspect to it.
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So for me making that connection, I would when the
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Bible says in the verses what it says not let not a woman usurp
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authority over the man. I would I would be tempted, I
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guess I'll say to try to connect those two and say that it would
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be uncomely for her to do that with with in that position.
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Now again, as we've all said, I'm not saying that there's
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never a circumstance. I think Andrew what he brought
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up there that might be a good circumstance.
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You take someone that's uncomfortable with a man
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touching her. I mean, I could hear that.
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I'm not saying, like I said, I'm not saying there's a verse that
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says it's illegal, but I think it's not the the most
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appropriate thing. And I think that it's Dan
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mentioned it. I had said that before about
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Elizabeth Elliott going and going into this tribe that
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actually killed her husband. And she's the only man or she's
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the only person there that has the gospel.
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She's trying to teach it to those people.
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And she said that as soon as somebody that couldn't do near
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as good a job as her, but was a man could stand up and actually
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talk, she gave them that authority, you know, gave them
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that role with the intent of getting that out of her hand.
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So that would just be my thought on it is it's not illegal.
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I think there's circumstances that that wouldn't, it's not
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like God's going to punish somebody for it, but I just, I
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don't think it's appropriate. Like I would take.
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Generally speaking, it's not appropriate.
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Yeah, no, that's, that's good. I, I appreciate your opinions on
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that. And hopefully if someone has
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that question, they could forge their, their idea of what's
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appropriate there, because that's really kind of what, what
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it boils down to in, in your situation, you'll have to make
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your, your best judgement there. So, OK, another thing that that
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I have heard a few times and this, you know, I don't want to
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spend a lot of time with this, but just real briefly, the idea
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consists in some circles of if you get, you know, part of the
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reason that you'd want to get baptized is to obtain a, you
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know, a power or an authority in the spiritual world or whatever.
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And so again, in my opinion, it seems almost as if, you know,
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this, this baptism is kind of an obedience like, right.
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If it's, it's something that is expected of, of a believer, some
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convert, you know, but, but I'd be interested in hearing what
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your idea is. Is there like a like a feeling
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of the Holy Spirit kind of power that's going to allow you to
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walk in the in the gospel better than than someone that's not
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baptized other than, you know, being somebody that has, you
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know, put the stake in the ground and said, yes, this is
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who I am in Christ and this is this is where my life as a
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believer started. Just just kind of wonder what
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your opinion is on that. Melvin, go ahead.
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So in when John was baptizing, he said he's baptism of
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repentance, which was a water baptism.
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He said several times. He said, I indeed baptize you
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with the water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is
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mightier than I. He shoes I'm not worthy to bear,
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and he shall baptize you with Holy Ghost in fire.
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Well The thing is, is that he's talking about Pentecost because
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later Jesus actually said the same thing in the book of John.
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So there's like a differential there.
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Like the water was 1, baptismal water was one in the baptism of
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the Holy Ghost was a separate thing, so to speak.
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So I don't see in the Scriptures that there is a Holy Spirit
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power from getting baptized because in the book of Acts,
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when you read there, there's one account there where they started
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speaking in tongues and then Paul said, were you baptized in
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the name of Jesus? And they said, no, we were not.
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And so they they were baptized and then another account, they
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got baptized and then they started speaking in tongues and
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with the power of Spirit. But it doesn't appear to me like
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it happened, like there's no pattern, so to speak.
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And so the baptism of water baptism is what we're
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specifically talking about here is just simply what I see an
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obedient thing is like when when Paul went preaching and people
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said, yes, I believe the gospel that you're preaching through
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Jesus, death on the cross and the resurrection.
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I believe that by faith. And immediately they were
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baptized and it was just like, it was like a like almost like
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instead of an order call, they got baptized, right.
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So that's just it's, no, I don't see any spiritual power that's
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actually in conjunction with water baptism.
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Yeah, there. I I prefer if somebody else
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spoke first. I'm not sure where exactly where
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to go with this. Yeah, sure, aired.
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Any idea how do you think it out?
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I kind of touched on this beforehand or in my last
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comment. I don't know.
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I don't know what to to make of it.
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I'm not saying there's some specific thing connected with
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it, but I do know this. Like I said, I looked that up
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and there was there was several places that it literally says
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baptized in the name of either the Father Son, the Holy Ghost
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or in the name of Jesus, which was Matthew 2819, Acts 238, Acts
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816, Acts 1048, Acts 19, five. And then Paul asked the question
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in First Corinthians 13, First Corinthians one and verse 13 and
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verse 15. So I know it is something like,
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if you think about the literalness of that, you are
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saying I am administering this in the name of by the power, by
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the authority of, of the Lord, right?
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Like I'm doing something with authority.
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So there is some authority connected with it.
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Now I'm like Melvin kind of mentioned this and I look this
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up, the Acts 238, he says repent, be baptized everyone of
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you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall
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receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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And then if you go to Acts chapter 16, this is Acts 16, and
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I'm sorry, Acts 8, sorry. Acts chapter 8.
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That's when they go and they have, let's see, Acts 8 and
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verse 12 says this. But when they believe Philip
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preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name
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of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
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Then Simon himself believed also.
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And when he was baptized, he continued with Philip and
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wondered, beholding the miracles and the signs which were done.
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Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that the that
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Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter
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and John, who when they were come down, prayed for them, that
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they might receive the Holy Ghost.
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It says, For as yet he was fallen upon none of them, only
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they were baptized in the name of the Lord.
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So they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy
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Ghost. Now I have to balance all these
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things, because Romans chapter 8 says that Romans 8 and verse 9
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says. Romans 8 and verse 9 says, But
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ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
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If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
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Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of
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his. And if Christ be in you, the
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body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of
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righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that
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raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up
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Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by
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his Spirit that dwells in you. So I would say, and I'm a
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Regent. One more verse, but I would say
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that what Peter promised you'll receive the gift.
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The Holy Ghost was God coming as Jesus prayed and dwelling in the
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people. It's like the comforter that he
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said it's expedient for me to leave and if I leave then the
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comforter will come and be with you all the time.
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And I would separate that from this speaking with tongues and
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all that. And here's the the last verse as
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to why I would make that connection.
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First Corinthians 12 says this. First Corinthians 12 and
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starting about verse 28, First Corinthians 12/28, he says and
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God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
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prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts
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of healing, helps governments, diversities of tongues.
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And then he asks the question, are all apostles?
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Are all prophets? Are all teachers?
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Are all workers of miracles? Listen, this, this is for the
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Apostolic crowd out there. Have all the gifts of healings.
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Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret so he's
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insinuating that that is not an automatic just because you are
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in the body of Christ and have the Holy Spirit does not mean
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that you do all these things right.
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So he is separating that out as a some do this, some do not.
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Some have this gift and some do not.
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But Romans 8 said if you don't have the spirit dwelling in you,
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you're none of his. So we I would, I would, I know
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that's a little off topic, but I'm just saying is connected
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with the question you asked. Is there some power comes with
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it? And I would say there is an
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authority with it and there is a promise of the dwelling of the
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Spirit of God with being in the body of Christ, but it is not
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bringing on the gift of prophecy, tongues or whatever.
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In fact, that's what if you read the rest of that story in Acts
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chapter 8 about Simon that he offers money because he sees
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that the laying on of hands gave the gift.
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Remember that like the rest of that story that that when Simon
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himself believed also was baptized.
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The rest of that story is, is that Peter and John come and
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they start laying hands on people and they receive the gift
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to the Holy Ghost and start speaking with tongues.
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And he tries to buy the gift. He says he offers them money,
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that he could have the gift so that when he laid his hands on
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somebody, they would receive the, you know, the Holy Ghost
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like that. So I don't know.
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I don't know if that's even connected, but.
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Yeah. I think it is, you know, I don't
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know that like the those things, if they necessarily become
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effective Atwater baptism necessarily.
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No, no, no. I was saying they don't.
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Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they come with the new
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birthright. Yeah.
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Well, and I would say that this is kindly a rabbit trail, but
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the problem with gifts is, is that they they, they glorify the
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person and the person is tempted with the glory that comes with
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but the purpose of a gift is to glorify the gospel, right?
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I mean, it's to press on the gospel.
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So I, I think there's such a as as pertaining to gifts.
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I think there's such a such a fine knife edge of desiring a
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gift like that, some special gift of the Holy Ghost so that
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you're not just looking for confirmation that you're
25:56
actually saved or you're not just looking for the glory that
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comes with performing the gift, but that you're concerned about
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the gift helping to add power or spread the message, right?
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I mean, that's when the apostles only one of the only times I can
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ever think of anybody asking for miracles to happen in a good way
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is the apostles get together and they pray that signs and wonders
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be done, that his message would be spread right.
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So I just think it's I said all that to say, I think it's a
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dangerous thing. I don't know if dangerous is the
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right word, but it's a fine point, fine point edge to hope
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for some kind of gift. I think that's a that's a fine
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edged knife, you know, to to hope and and hope that baptism
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or any other thing would bring on some kind of gift.
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But sure. Yeah, I don't know, maybe that's
26:55
out of line. I mean, as I said it, I thought,
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well, is that out of line? Yeah.
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I don't know. Well, I mean, a person would of
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course do better to just continue seeking God and you
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know, and and living his life that way rather than seeking a
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gift or whatever. So and really just and you put
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up, I don't know, Andrew. So when I think about most of
27:21
all the things that we're talking about, I also think
27:24
about how upset God gets when the good thing that he uses to
27:33
make a change in someone's life. Somehow we want to the humans
27:37
want to them all of a sudden adopt that as a pattern.
27:41
And we want to adopt that, adopt that as a method and make that
27:45
the thing instead of the God that used that to make his name
27:51
known. Like the serpent that was raised
27:55
up in the wilderness and the people that looked at the
27:57
serpent got healed. That was a big deal.
28:00
God showed his glory, his salvation.
28:04
Just like the Son of Man must be lifted up, so was that serpent
28:07
lifted up and that everyone would look would be healed from
28:12
a from a death sentence. They would be healed.
28:17
And later he the people worship the snake.
28:23
They worship the serpent instead of the one that told them, you
28:28
know, where the power actually came from.
28:30
So they started not glorifying God.
28:33
They glorified the thing that God used.
28:38
It also makes sense why Paul says that he's glad he didn't
28:41
baptize them because people were doing the same thing there.
28:46
And I think in a lot of places in churches today, God would say
28:51
don't baptize because it's the connection that they're putting
28:54
on the weight and the significance they're putting on
28:57
baptism there. It identifies you with that
29:02
group. It makes you one with them and
29:06
they forget Jesus. That's where I come from.
29:09
We were baptized into the Amish church and that's how you
29:13
identify that is made that made you that.
29:16
And I didn't have to know Jesus. I didn't have to be born again.
29:20
And the other thing that I would like to remember talking about
29:24
power coming on a believer when he gets baptized.
29:29
I know one way power gets on you and in you when you get baptized
29:34
and that is when you get baptized into Jesus Christ.
29:38
And that's not water. That's the Spirit baptizing us
29:43
into his son, making this one. That's definite change.
29:47
When you're baptized into Christ, there's a change.
29:51
You're different. It's it's significant and some
29:56
people get that when they get baptized in water.
30:00
So that's what's hence the confusion.
30:03
Some get it before they're baptized, Some got it when they
30:06
were baptized in the name of John or in the baptism of John.
30:12
And some were got the Holy Ghost.
30:15
They got baptized into Christ before they got water baptized
30:18
and some did when they got water baptized.
30:21
And then some didn't get it even after they were water baptized
30:24
and then they got it later by the laying on of hands, I would
30:26
say. And then also, it seems to me
30:29
like there was a lot of gifts that people got by the laying on
30:32
of hands later. And I agree with you guys as far
30:39
as the gifts that there's, there's again, the whole concept
30:47
of the thing that got used to glorify his name.
30:50
We want to jump on and get it, get that program.
30:54
So it would make a lot of sense for me if God quit doing his
30:59
money miracles because we end up worshipping the miracles.
31:02
We end up worshipping and and following the people that do the
31:06
miracles as somehow God is not able to deliver us.
31:10
So somehow we need to go to this man so that he can through his
31:15
because he has the anointing that somehow the middle wall
31:18
petition has not been taken down.
31:20
That somehow we don't have access to come before the throne
31:23
of grace boldly as an individual.
31:26
That somehow the blood of Jesus Christ is still bound and we
31:30
have to go through another man like another priest.
31:33
That the Jesus Christ is not that great high priest that
31:36
we've talked about. And so don't let ministers rob
31:43
you from going boldly to the throne of grace because they're
31:46
telling you that you need them and to be under their authority
31:50
in order for you to have power. I was taught that to the certain
31:54
extent it's there and it limits you because you're constantly
31:57
waiting for that power to come so that you can act.
32:01
And it's just another form of bondage.
32:04
And ministries like to use it because it keeps people under
32:07
their grip. And, and they'll always give you
32:09
that hope that, you know, I see the God working in you.
32:12
I see how the Spirit of God is moving in your lines.
32:15
And if you just hang in there, you just follow our guidance,
32:18
you'll go places that you never would have outside of our
32:22
umbrella protection. But again, they're trying to be
32:25
somewhat of a priesthood there. And I just, I just don't think
32:29
that's God. And we end up worshipping them.
32:32
That's why I wanted to. They mess up, the church falls
32:35
apart. People are scattered.
32:36
They don't know who they believe.
32:38
They don't know if they're Christian.
32:39
They go out in the world and it just tells you how much emphasis
32:44
we put on the things that we can see, feel, taste and smell.
32:48
So it makes full well sense to not chase after miracles today.
32:52
Do we really need a miracle in 2025?
32:55
Do we need a miracle with all the technology we got on the
32:59
Bibles? On our phone we can read 56000
33:02
years of history of God doing miracles and and exposing who he
33:06
is. And I don't need a miracle to be
33:09
convinced Now there are still people that do need one there in
33:12
the in the you know, I'm in in town where they're in the and
33:18
like totally illiterate and never hurt the Bible.
33:20
And somehow a miracle will rise them up to the faith.
33:24
And that's good. I'm not against miracles.
33:26
I think God is very much still into it.
33:28
But I'm talking about out here, general people going trying to
33:32
go to church to perform a power by baptizing and laying on our
33:36
hands is to me unbelief. That's at that point it's just
33:40
unbelief. Miracles are designed for people
33:43
that need to come to Christ and they're unconvinced, but that
33:45
miracle will convince them of Christ is kind of my view on
33:48
that. Yeah.
33:50
No, that's, that's good. And yeah, and if you do have any
33:55
input, I'm going to switch gears here a little bit.
33:58
We we said that I said that we would talk about our testimonies
34:02
regarding baptism individually. I'm just interested in hearing
34:06
I, some of you, I know a little bit about me and Melvin's path
34:10
was parallel in a lot of ways. We were good friends in the same
34:13
community at the time. But a lot of you, I never
34:15
really, you know, like what, what made you get baptized or
34:19
were you baptized twice or, you know, what's your story
34:23
regarding that? As brief as you can, Dad, go
34:25
ahead. I'm going to, if you don't mind,
34:27
just offer a few little tidbits there because now I'm kind of
34:30
wrapping my mind around where you guys are coming from.
34:32
I don't think I have any any further answers necessarily, but
34:35
Jesus or the sorry John the Baptist says in Matthew 311 and
34:41
other places that when he comes, when Christ comes, he will
34:44
baptize you with the Holy Ghost, right?
34:46
And so to me, I think there is a baptism by the Holy Ghost and
34:50
there's a baptism of the Holy Ghost.
34:53
So you every believer is baptized into the body of
34:56
Christ. And if you're not in Christ,
34:58
then you're not of his, right? However, the believers in the
35:02
book of Acts chapter 3 and then later in five, they got baptized
35:06
by the Holy Ghost multiple occasions, right?
35:09
And so I believe that baptism with the Holy Ghost where the
35:12
Holy Ghost comes upon a believer and they perhaps have miraculous
35:17
things happen or power or boldness to to speak the word of
35:20
God. That's baptism by the whole or
35:23
with the Holy Ghost. Whereas if you're not baptized
35:26
into the body of Jesus by the Holy Ghost, then you're not
35:29
saved. And so if you read like the
35:32
passage that Aaron went to where they were baptized by Philip
35:37
already, I think they were believers, but they had not yet
35:40
received the baptism. Of the Holy.
35:42
Ghost where they got the the gifts and all that in the early
35:45
church as they were all getting. But I would like to think based
35:49
on the book of Romans and plenty of other passages, that they
35:52
were already believers. They were already in the body of
35:54
Christ and they had not yet received that miraculous gift of
35:58
the Holy Ghost. But yeah, now leading into my
36:03
personal baptism story, in Acts chapter 19, the apostle Paul is
36:08
out preaching and he comes unto these certain disciples, I think
36:12
there was about 12 of them. And Acts 19 in verse 2 he says
36:17
unto them, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
36:22
And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether
36:25
there be any Holy Ghost. We don't even know what you're
36:27
talking about. And then he says, well then what
36:29
were you baptized unto? They said unto John's baptism.
36:32
And then he told them the gospel, and he believed the
36:35
gospel. And then he baptized them in the
36:37
name of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so on one hand, baptism is
36:42
simply just obedience to God, like we should all obey God.
36:46
But it is a little different than, hey, you should be kind to
36:49
the poor. You should, you should be
36:52
generous with your time, you should be hospitable.
36:54
We should all be hospitable. But this is like a like a
36:57
devotional outward committal to A cause to a person.
37:02
And in this case, it's the name of the Lord Jesus.
37:05
I'm committing myself to that name.
37:07
I'm giving myself over to him in a sense.
37:10
So it does seem to be a more ceremonial type of obedience
37:13
where it's not like, you know, don't commit adultery or be kind
37:20
to your neighbor. It's like the ceremonial thing.
37:22
I want you to do this so that the world may know, you know, so
37:26
that so that the people around you can see, hey, he's actually
37:30
committed to this 'cause I almost think that water baptism,
37:33
though, it's in the name of Jesus, in the name of the
37:36
Father, Son, the Holy Ghost. It's in obedience to God the
37:38
Father. It's more for the people around
37:42
to see. It's like an initiation into
37:44
this thing. Like you say you're a believer,
37:47
but I, I don't know if you are because you haven't dared get in
37:50
the water yet, you know, and it's, it's like you tell me
37:53
you're baptized by the Holy Ghost.
37:55
You tell me that you're in the body of Christ, but you haven't
37:58
been in the water. How come you know, like what's
38:00
going on, right? And so for myself, I, I was a
38:04
Mennonite, you know, as strict as I knew how to be, as far as
38:07
Ontario, Canada standards went, I was a very staunch Old Colony
38:12
Mennonite. And I read my Bible every day, I
38:14
prayed my prayers, I went through the baptismal classes.
38:17
I didn't want to do it just to get married.
38:19
I wanted to do it to actually be a better person.
38:22
And my wife and I were dating at the time.
38:25
We knew we had to get baptized to get married, but we were
38:27
like, we're not going to do it just to get married.
38:29
That's what we see everyone else doing.
38:31
We want to actually make some changes.
38:33
And so we tried to pray more, we try to read more, tried hard to
38:37
stop doing certain sins. And we didn't have any big
38:42
outward sins. We weren't Alcoholics, we
38:44
weren't partiers, we didn't smoke.
38:45
We didn't do any of those things.
38:47
But the one sin we had was secret to us, just the two of
38:50
us, as most young couples know, and we couldn't stop.
38:54
So we committed like, we're going to do this thing.
38:56
We confessed to the preachers what we have been doing and all
38:58
that stuff was cleared up and it our commitment to this cause of
39:03
trying to be better lasted maybe a few days like we do.
39:07
We have no power, no new life, no no change in our thinking.
39:12
There was no gospel presented to us.
39:14
It was just a commitment trying to be a better person.
39:18
Fast forward about a year and a half, we got married, had our
39:21
first baby and the church kind of split.
39:24
We left with one of the preachers.
39:25
I started hearing the gospel finally and I heard that Christ
39:30
had become sin for me, that he had died as if he were me and it
39:33
should have been me on the cross.
39:35
And I immediately saw for the first time ever that my sin was
39:38
gone, that I didn't have to try to deal with it.
39:41
It wasn't an ongoing basis. I wasn't trying to clean myself
39:44
up. I wasn't trying to stop certain
39:46
sins to come to God. I knew immediately in my heart,
39:49
I now trust Christ. He put he took my sin, he went
39:52
down into the grave. He left my sin there.
39:54
He was raised to new life. There's nothing I need to do.
39:57
And I knew then that there was like a a black.
40:00
Versus white thing, there was a death to life moment, there was
40:05
a child of the devil became translated into the Kingdom of
40:08
God and now is a child of God. And I just knew that any, any,
40:12
any religious effort I did before that moment, before I
40:15
trusted in Christ was filthy rags and had no merit or bearing
40:19
before God whatsoever. So to me, I felt like more than
40:22
anything, I needed to make that public declaration of, hey, not
40:26
only am I trusting Christ, but I am not trusting in my Mennonite
40:31
confession. I am not trusting in the water
40:33
that was sprinkled on my head. I'm not trusting in the church
40:36
system that I went through. I'm not trusting in any of my
40:38
own effort. I'm trusting in Christ alone.
40:41
Therefore, I'm going to go down into the water and get me some
40:44
real baptism going on here, right?
40:45
So it was. There was also the immersion
40:49
versus sprinkling. To me, every time the Bible uses
40:52
the word baptism, whether it's Speaking of water or spirit or
40:55
clouds or anything, it's always this complete, enveloping,
40:59
complete immersion thing. So to me, it just felt like it
41:02
was so obvious. I had to get baptized.
41:04
It was clear and it caused major ripples.
41:07
I could go on and on about that. I was shunned from my inlaws for
41:10
two years. Wedding pictures were burned and
41:13
I was this own, so to speak. My parents were having
41:17
nightmares. My mom, they were sure I was
41:19
going to hell because I in the, our Mennonite tradition, the
41:23
second baptism was considered the unpardonable sin because you
41:26
were committing a sin against the Holy Ghost.
41:28
You had promised God by the Holy Ghost in the name of the Father,
41:32
Son, Holy Ghost, that you would be true to the church.
41:34
And now you're departing from that.
41:36
So you're committing this unpardonable sin, right?
41:39
And so it was a major upheaval in my family.
41:43
So anyway, I can go on and on, but you said to keep it brief.
41:46
Yeah, that that is really interesting that that kind of
41:50
condemnation gets piled from people that actually would
41:53
uphold at a Baptist doctrines to the to the last straw, which
42:00
literally means to be baptized. Yeah.
42:05
So I'll I'll, I'll go here. Just it's in the rotation.
42:07
Real, real quick on on my story. Yeah, I was when we were 17.
42:14
I guess it was customary in our setting or conservative
42:18
Mennonite setting to to get baptized around that time.
42:22
But I was thinking marriage. And to get married, I had to be
42:25
a member of the church. And to be a member of the
42:28
church, he had to be baptized, which, which was sitting through
42:31
the instruction class and for a couple of several weeks and then
42:37
get sprinkled and say yes to the three questions or whatever that
42:41
you were that that was as as shallow as that baptism was.
42:46
I, I had one noted that was to get married.
42:49
And this is what I had to do to get that.
42:51
But then when, when I got saved much later, I, I too, I was, it
42:58
wasn't, I just, I just knew right away that I'd have to get
43:01
baptized again for real. And we did.
43:05
And the reason is, you know what I read, I kind of got probably
43:10
converted out of like Romans 6. They're talking about how that
43:15
you are in Christ, you know, a new creation and stuff like
43:18
that. And I wanted I wanted people to
43:22
be that. And the way to show that was do
43:24
exactly what baptism is to go down into the water,
43:27
representing every up out of there a new creation.
43:31
And at the time I would say, you know, talking about power, at
43:35
the time I didn't really feel any different.
43:38
I mean, I was really glad I did it.
43:40
It was a powerful time. A lot of our friends were there.
43:44
Church, you know, we didn't get shot nearly as as dramatically
43:47
as Dan. A lot of people we would try to
43:51
they think it was weird, but they didn't barely shot us.
43:55
But then many years later and even they looking back, I'm
44:00
really, really glad that I did that because there was something
44:03
to be obedient to God and what he what he wants.
44:08
So that's a very brief kind of how we decided I just I, I could
44:14
see in the Bible that that's what that baptism, right?
44:16
But that's what we did. Aaron, go ahead.
44:22
Mines are totally different because I am different than the
44:25
rest of you. I'm from a totally different so
44:29
I was raised church Christ, which would have they would have
44:33
said that's the moment. In other words, God is
44:35
withholding forgiveness until you get baptized like you could
44:40
hear you could believe it you could confess your sins, you
44:44
could repent. You can do all those things, but
44:47
until you we're willing to be baptized in water, you're not
44:53
forgiven. So that that's what I was raised
44:55
to believe. And technically I was baptized
44:58
under that assumption, but I did.
45:02
I know. Well, I'll just tell the story I
45:05
had. I had been a good kid up until I
45:10
was 17 or 18 years old. Good, you know, good kid.
45:14
Didn't do what everybody else is doing.
45:16
Didn't cast and mess around with anything that I shouldn't have
45:20
done really. Pretty much.
45:22
And then I started hanging out with the wrong crowd and got
45:25
into some of those things. And then I woke up one day just
45:30
because of a bad instance that happened.
45:32
I woke up and I was like, not woke up from the bed, but woke
45:35
like hit a wall and said, what am I doing?
45:39
Like what am I doing here? So I go to they're having a
45:42
revival. I go that night to the revival.
45:45
No one I'm going to commit to the Lord, right?
45:49
Like, I mean, I'm just telling you what I thought at the time I
45:52
went. No one I'm going to commit to
45:55
God tonight and and become a new person.
45:59
Like because I recognized that being baptized was, I think Dan
46:05
maybe said this, this, that I recognized that was a
46:09
acknowledgement to everybody around me.
46:12
Hey, Aaron's not living for himself anymore.
46:15
He's living for Christ, right? Like I did recognize that.
46:18
So I go. And that was the thing we would
46:21
do is when the sermon was over, you would walk to the front of
46:24
the building that would let the preacher know that you wanted to
46:29
be baptized or if people would do that even if they were
46:33
already baptized, but wanting to, you know, like, whatever,
46:37
come back to the terms. They felt like they fell away.
46:39
So anyway, I get up. I mean, soon as they start
46:42
singing the song, the invitation song, I walk to the front and.
46:46
Just. Wept like, weeping bitter tears.
46:50
And I remember thinking after, like after that, between that
46:54
and being baptized, I remember thinking like sitting back there
46:59
weeping, thinking I don't know how I'm going to do this.
47:05
I know this is the right thing. Like I know this is the right
47:08
thing because I didn't hear the gospel.
47:09
I don't know if I did. I probably didn't clarify that
47:12
we were not teaching the gospel that I was that, that I was
47:16
going to be, you know, dead to sin, like they weren't teaching
47:21
all that. So I didn't know that the Bible
47:23
taught that, but I knew, I remember sitting back there
47:26
weeping, thinking, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I
47:31
know this is the right thing to do.
47:32
And just feeling overwhelmed with how am I going?
47:35
How am I going to be a perfect man?
47:38
I mean, I really did like I so, so I'll admit to you, I didn't
47:42
know the gospel back then. When I got baptized, I was 19.
47:47
But but I do remember that thought of knowing that this is
47:52
a public declaration that Aaron Keaton is accepting Christ and
47:58
that he's going to, you know, not live for himself anymore.
48:03
Like I do remember thinking that.
48:04
And so that's my personal experience.
48:06
Like I said, I got the gospel some.
48:09
I mean, I, I never really both saw the gospel until, well, that
48:15
would have been 2001, so another 11 years before I actually saw
48:20
the gospel clearly. So, so that's a whole nother
48:24
story, I guess. But that was my, that was my
48:27
experience with baptism as far. As I guess, but.
48:31
Andrew yeah, my story similar to Dan's, I was also going to be
48:37
the the good Amish person, the actual believer, the actual
48:42
Christian. I knew that most of the Amish,
48:46
the spiritual topic would freak him out and they would think I'm
48:49
weird crazy. So as far as talking spiritual
48:52
things among the Amish is just you just don't do it for the
48:56
risk of someone thinking that you're more than crazy believer.
49:00
So I just kind of kept it to myself and I still remember
49:07
going through the classes just this is try to be actually
49:11
meditate and stop and think and be sincere and find the moment
49:18
game where everything went through and I was on my knees.
49:23
They did the whole thing and the water sprinkled down and I was
49:27
so focused to know what this was doing that on the drips of the
49:32
water went down. I was like, that's my sense, my
49:36
sense I'm being washed, that I was trying so hard to not just
49:42
go through the emotions. I wanted to know that this is
49:46
that little sprinkling that water.
49:48
That is my sense. I'm going to be a brand new
49:50
person. And yeah, there had a little bit
49:53
of an outward emotional effect to it, but it was so
49:55
disappointing later, like right the next day, just nothing
49:59
there. So.
50:01
And I got baptized against my brother Moses advice.
50:05
He had become a believer and wrote me a letter and told me
50:08
not to do it. And I did it anyway.
50:10
And also probably because I was chasing some girls.
50:14
I don't know. So then that would have been
50:23
18-19. And then by the time I was 23,
50:29
when I was 23, I kept getting challenged by ex Amish believers
50:34
to the point where I started studying the Bible and I was up
50:37
in my room and my eyes just got opened.
50:41
I got, that's why I would say I got baptized into Christ.
50:44
My spiritual eyes were open. I understood the gospel, but I
50:48
didn't know that's what happened.
50:50
I just knew now that Jesus Christ is the only way that
50:54
there's nothing I can do. That wasn't even I wasn't even
50:56
trying to fight that anymore. I just knew there's nothing I
50:59
can do. Nobody had to tell me.
51:01
I just knew. And I knew that my only hope was
51:04
Jesus Christ, but I didn't know. Even though I knew that I didn't
51:08
know if it if it's been applied to me.
51:11
I didn't know if I have it. I didn't.
51:15
I was still struggling with lust and sin.
51:18
So that told me I probably don't have it.
51:20
So I tried to get it safe for 2-3 years probably.
51:25
I don't remember how long after that experience it was until I
51:28
got baptized because finally I was like, well, I'm just going
51:31
to go and publicly go with Jesus.
51:34
I'm going to show God that way that I'm committed to him if he
51:38
doesn't come and save me the way it is or verify whether I'm
51:41
saved or not. Everybody around me told me I'm
51:43
saved and I did. I was like, well, I'm done.
51:46
People telling me where I'm at before God, That's what I do
51:48
with the Amish. So I wanted to know myself and
51:52
Long story short I finally I got baptized.
51:54
Still nothing happened to where I now knew in my spirit.
51:59
And then finally I heard the gospel of being crucified with
52:03
Christ and the old man. The flesh being destroyed not by
52:08
baptism, not by being born again, but by believing that I
52:13
am dead with Christ. Like that is something that a
52:15
believer can actually take part in and doing and make it happen.
52:20
Like it's not God withholding, It's not God just automatically
52:25
delivering you. It's something you initiate.
52:27
You have to believe that you're crucified with Christ.
52:30
That was a big moment. And some people might say that's
52:33
when I actually got saved. But looking back, I think I got
52:37
saved up in the Amish rumor. I was already saved and I just
52:40
didn't know the weapons I had as a believer, you know how to act
52:44
in. And I would just say this, a lot
52:51
of times we're looking for that radical spirit to verify whether
52:54
we're safe or not. But God says the Spirit of God
52:58
is like the wind. You can't see it, but you can
53:00
see the effects of it. So if you look back, you there's
53:03
there's a boldness, there's a power that happened when I
53:06
believed when I surrendered to Christ.
53:08
I just well. That's good.
53:12
Delvin. Yeah, man, I feel like he
53:14
impaired you guys, so I. I got.
53:19
I got baptized into the Old order Mennonite Church at 19 and
53:23
and I was AI was a rebel man. I got baptized for one reason,
53:27
one reason 11 is I was going to get married.
53:30
And you know that little book they give you that you're
53:33
supposed to read before you get baptized?
53:35
I didn't read it. I just chucked it on my room in
53:38
the corner and and I didn't really care.
53:41
You know, I just wanted to get baptized so I could get married.
53:45
And so that's what I did and my poor wife.
53:49
But anyway, that's another story.
53:50
So anyway, I got baptized and I was 19, right?
53:56
And I got saved or born again or baptized into Christ at 33.
54:03
And I got, I got born again or baptized into Christ in the seat
54:08
of my truck in my driveway. And it was just, but it took a
54:13
long time, like it took over a year of me hearing the gospel
54:16
over and over again, listening to all kinds of preachers,
54:20
listening to the word of God, listening to the truth.
54:23
It took a long time for me to sort.
54:26
Through. This whole thing.
54:28
But when I got saved, I knew that, you know, I needed to get
54:33
baptized because I knew that my first baptism was not valid.
54:36
I was, I, I was not trying to be a good person or anything.
54:40
I didn't really give a risk and so about God or anything or
54:44
Jesus at that point. So I but I did struggle with the
54:49
fact of getting me baptized because I knew it would create a
54:51
risk, right? We didn't get Sean like the
54:54
Amish, but I knew it would create a problem a little bit,
54:57
right. So I, when I read in Acts
54:59
chapter 19, what you read then there were, he's, they, Paul
55:05
asked them if they, you know, what baptism they were baptized
55:08
with. And they said that the baptism
55:10
of John. And then he, it says there that
55:13
they believed on Jesus and then he baptized them in the name of
55:16
Jesus. And when I read that, it was
55:18
like, Oh, that's, that's re baptism right there.
55:22
And so I was like, I'm doing it, man.
55:24
I, I need to get immersed because that's what baptism
55:28
means. And so we did.
55:30
I did with Leon. Me and Leon did it together.
55:33
I remember it was. Cold.
55:35
Water. And it was a cold day and we got
55:38
dunked, man, It was, it was awesome.
55:40
But, you know, it was just like, it was a thing that I wanted to
55:43
do to show everyone around me that I was all in for Jesus.
55:50
And so, yeah, it was, it was a beautiful thing, but it, it,
55:56
it's not. As far as?
55:57
Power. I didn't feel any power
56:00
necessarily. I already had the power after I
56:03
got born again. I could, I, I felt it to some
56:08
degree because I had power over sin.
56:10
All of a sudden. I had no power over sin before
56:13
that point. And I remember you, Leon, I
56:16
remember it was like a week after I got born again that you
56:20
said to me, Melon, something happened to you.
56:22
You're different. And my wife was the first person
56:24
that told me that. And you were the second person.
56:27
And so that when I got baptized into Christ, like you were
56:31
saying, Andrew, that's when the change happened.
56:33
So so. With that, Melvin, do you, do
56:37
you see that the the water baptism marked any kind of a
56:42
turning point or did it, did it bring any kind of change to your
56:45
actions at all that you that you thought of?
56:48
Not really. You mean when I got immersed?
56:51
Yeah, like, yeah, yeah. Like the the change happened
56:54
when you got baptized into Jesus, not not necessarily at
56:58
the water or did was there something else that happened
57:01
like some some kind of a turning point at all?
57:03
No, no, not really. I it was like like it was like I
57:08
felt like, how would how can I describe it is like I felt like
57:13
I was being obedient to the word because the word, that's what
57:17
the word. You know what I seen in the
57:19
Bible, But as far as no, not I wouldn't say so not in my case
57:24
at all. Go.
57:27
Ahead, Dad, looking back when you got baptized for real, what
57:33
did you did you do you understand anything differently
57:37
now about it than you did back when you did it that did you
57:39
learn other about it that that would change your view on how
57:43
you got baptized at all or no? No, I think the water baptism
57:47
just became very crystal clear to me.
57:50
It was, it was a very public statement and I wanted to do it
57:54
to show the people around me that I again have no confidence
57:59
in myself. And in fact, I'm not only no
58:02
confidence in myself, I'm also rejecting any other man made
58:06
attempt at saving my soul. I have no hope but Jesus.
58:10
Obviously not everybody who was watching understood that
58:13
message. But if you heard my testimony at
58:16
the time, it was very clear. Like I used to believe this
58:19
system had merit before God. I used to think that this was a
58:24
step I had to take to earn favor before God.
58:27
I used to think, you know, follow these rules, right?
58:30
And when I understood that it was simply faith in Christ and
58:33
Christ had done the work. Water baptism was just a very
58:37
external thing. Nothing changed in my life, but
58:39
it was something I wanted to do in boldness and the public
58:43
declaration of my allegiance to Christ.
58:47
And I agree with kind of what what Melvin said to like in, in
58:51
one sense, it was exhilarating knowing that you did the right
58:55
thing, that you might catch some Flack like that.
58:58
That was exciting to me that that we that you took that
59:01
stance. Yeah.
59:03
And yeah. And the doing it outside or in
59:06
the cold or something almost adds to that effect.
59:09
It's like, yeah, we're we're doing this right.
59:13
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a fun time.
59:15
I, I, I would really add to just kind of wrap this up, you know,
59:21
if somebody is a child of God and hasn't become, hasn't gotten
59:26
baptized in water, you know, I would highly recommend it.
59:31
I think the Bible is very clear on it.
59:34
I think you should. And for, for so many reasons,
59:38
you know, if it's obedience or whatever else, but yeah, it's,
59:43
it's a good, it's a good, good discussion.
59:46
So all right, we're going to get some more questions.
59:49
I got a, another list of questions that I want to ask you
59:52
guys to discuss a little bit next week.
59:56
So we'll go. And I, I really appreciate it.
59:58
We kind of talked about the baptism of the the Holy Ghost of
1:00:02
the Spirit. That that falls under the same
1:00:06
category, but it's actually a little bit different Ave.
1:00:09
probably than we were going after really interesting as
1:00:12
well. So as we go forward through
1:00:14
this, if you want to bring that into it as we go that that's
1:00:17
great too. So anyway, thanks guys for being
1:00:21
on here. Cameron, I see you you posted
1:00:24
some stuff in the chat here. We'll get that pasted over into
1:00:28
the YouTube and stuff so we guys can see that that's that's good
1:00:33
stuff there. So.
1:00:34
I appreciate you guys. Alright then, I know you do
1:00:37
invest time study at this. Appreciate that.
1:00:40
So we'll see you back here next week, same time, same place.
1:00:44
God bless you guys. Have a great evening.