Latest / The Game Business Show / Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 director hopes “AI revolution” will allow him to make games faster

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Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 director hopes “AI revolution” will allow him to make games faster · The Game Business Show

• 0:00
  I would dare to say that what we did is the most complicated
• 0:04
  type of game that you
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: can choose to make.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Embracer had,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it still has,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: the idea that Lars,
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: who is a CEO,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: is giving the studios a lot of freedom.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we had a lot of trust and we could do basically whatever we wanted.
• 0:22
  hello and welcome to the game business show with me christopher
• 0:25
  drink today we chat
• 0:27
  to daniel vavra the creative director and co-founder of
• 0:29
  warhorse studios the team
• 0:31
  behind the monstrously successful kingdom come deliverance
• 0:34
  series if you're new to
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  the game business show we are a new publication all about the
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  SPEAKER_02: Head to thegamebusiness.com and stick in your email.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: That way you won't.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: But hello, Daniel.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Nice to see you.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Nice to see you.
• 0:58
  Well,
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  congratulations on the early sales,
• 1:02
  certainly,
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  of Kingdom Come Deliverance 2.
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  SPEAKER_02: I saw it did two million units in two days.
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  SPEAKER_02: It seems to have gone down very well.
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  SPEAKER_02: Has it met your expectations?
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  SPEAKER_00: It did.
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  SPEAKER_00: Actually, my expectations were very...
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  SPEAKER_00: Very precisely, almost identical to what actually happened.
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  SPEAKER_00: I made some predictions and initial day I missed by like 90 copies.
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  SPEAKER_00: 90 copies.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well 900 or something, 90.
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  SPEAKER_00: So my expectation was something and it was really,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was couple hundred thousand,
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  SPEAKER_00: well almost,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I missed expectation by 90 copies.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think I've got it wrong.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's two million in two weeks.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's still amazing.
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  SPEAKER_02: But do you think you should become a games analyst?
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  SPEAKER_02: I think we could do some accurate predictions about the market.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had numbers from the pre-orders in comparison with the first game,
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  SPEAKER_00: so it was quite,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  easy or it was logical to extrapolate the numbers from the
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  first game and stuff
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  SPEAKER_00: like that,
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  SPEAKER_00: so it wasn't that hard.
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  SPEAKER_02: Is anything about the launch that surprised you?
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  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything you didn't see coming?
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  SPEAKER_00: I was a little bit afraid if the game is good enough.
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  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
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  SPEAKER_00: You are never sure what people will think.
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  SPEAKER_00: The initial news were good.
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  Like there was a lot of people playing it in some test place
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  and some journalists
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  let us know how they think about the game and we did some test
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  reviews and stuff
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  SPEAKER_00: like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we knew that it's not going to be
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  bad let's say but generally i'm very very happy and surprised
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  how much some people
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  praise the game and it's getting better and better after the
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  release so a lot of
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  people say it's the best game they ever played and stuff like
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  that every day i had
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  a lot of messages i played 150 hours and it's the best game i
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  played in last 10
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  SPEAKER_00: years and stuff like that so that's what i didn't expect it that much
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  SPEAKER_00: It's much more than what happened with the first game.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very grateful for that, actually.
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  SPEAKER_02: Well,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's reassuring to see it do so well,
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  SPEAKER_02: particularly in this market where big games,
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  SPEAKER_02: you think it'd be...
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  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_02: Kingdom Come Deliverance's first one was such a hit,
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  SPEAKER_02: so successful,
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  SPEAKER_02: I would have predicted this would do well.
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  SPEAKER_02: in the market where Star Wars Outlaws didn't do what was expected of it,
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  SPEAKER_02: and Dragon Age of Aelgard,
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  SPEAKER_02: and so many big games just for some reason not fine in the market.
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  The market seems difficult to predict,
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  so well done for being so close to your estimates.
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  Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_02: You obviously reviewed well, pretty much high scores across the board.
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  SPEAKER_02: There are a couple of mid-level scores.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think you're a little disappointed in them.
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  But does that hitting that 90 Metacritic number,
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  does it matter as much as it used to?
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  SPEAKER_01: Um...
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  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is important in the first days,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  because the people look at those numbers and then judge if they
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  will buy the game
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  SPEAKER_00: or not.
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  SPEAKER_00: But generally, when there are Steam reviews and user reviews, it's
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  SPEAKER_00: For me, and I believe for many people, it's much more important then.
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  So generally Steam reviews are more important for me and they
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  are even better.
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  SPEAKER_00: So currently we are like 93% or something, which is great.
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  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
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  SPEAKER_00: Times have changed a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit different than it was a couple of years ago.
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  SPEAKER_02: I guess with Steam reviews as well,
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  SPEAKER_02: they reflect all the changes you make to the game,
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  SPEAKER_02: whereas critical reviews are very much the time it comes out.
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  What do you think it is about the series that has resonated so
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  well with players?
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  SPEAKER_02: Because it started off,
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  I think you said the second game was what you wanted the first
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  game to be,
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  SPEAKER_02: that was your objective,
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  SPEAKER_02: but the first game really won people over in a big way as well.
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  SPEAKER_02: So what is it about it that's been so enticing?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm really actually surprised that
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  SPEAKER_00: So many people are surprised by the success of the game.
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  Since the beginning,
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  I was absolutely sure that it's a recipe for success if we do
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  it right.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like similar games.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are very few of them.
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  SPEAKER_00: For some weird reason, nobody makes them anymore that much.
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  SPEAKER_00: So generally we are in the same
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  SPEAKER_00: genre, let's say, as Witcher or Red Dead Redemption games.
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  Actually,
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  we pitched the game to publishers as Red Dead Redemption with a
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  sword 14 years ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: So generally it's a strong story,
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  SPEAKER_00: but at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_00: big open world,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of freedom for the player and the story,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is very important.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where a lot of games today fail.
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  SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, the story has to be good
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  By which I mean cool characters that you can relate to and
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  humor and something they
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  SPEAKER_00: can kind of relate to and feel that it's them.
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  SPEAKER_00: And many games today when they have a story,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's just like some fill-in,
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  SPEAKER_00: some random bullshit or...
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  they try to tell the player some message or something but
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  usually there are very
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  few games like that and every time such game is published it's
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  it becomes very
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  SPEAKER_00: successful so
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  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of weird that nobody... Where do you think people rate them?
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  SPEAKER_02: You get stories like that in film though all the time, right?
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  SPEAKER_02: I think I know what you mean.
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  SPEAKER_02: Any theories as to why you don't get quite so many games like this?
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  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of theories.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have a theory about it, of course.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's probably a little bit controversial, maybe.
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  SPEAKER_00: But generally, if you look at the movies, at least
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  In the past,
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  Hollywood studios are based very differently than games industry.
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  You have a producers that choose some script and then they kind
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  of try to find
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  money and they assemble the team and they give a lot of control
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  to the director.
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  So basically the person who controls everything is the director
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  and the producer and they give
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  chances to even very young and sometimes even unexperienced
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  people so so uh i don't
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  know brian singer was very young when he was needed first x-men
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  for example and
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  they give him a very important franchise reboot of superhero
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  movies and he was a
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  young director at the time so hollywood was at least in the
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  past was willing to
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  risk and try to do new stuff with new people and they knew that
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  it's about
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  SPEAKER_00: good director rather than some committee.
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  SPEAKER_00: While in games,
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  you have a company that's making games and there is a board of
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  people who are
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  deciding stuff and director or writer is just one of them and
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  very often doesn't
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  SPEAKER_00: have the final word.
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  So there's much bigger risk than it will become some basically
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  corporate product
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  SPEAKER_00: rather than the piece of art.
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  SPEAKER_00: This environment also kind of repels
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  SPEAKER_00: creative people, a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: and still for a big game,
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  SPEAKER_00: similar to ours or RDR or whatever,
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  SPEAKER_00: you need a lot of money,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of resources,
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  SPEAKER_00: much more than for a typical movie,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's say today,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can say it,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it takes much longer.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you can shoot a movie very quickly.
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  And then there's a lot of post-production of course,
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  but generally you assemble the small,
• 8:31
  quite
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Big team, but for a short time.
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  SPEAKER_00: While in games, you have a large team for years.
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  So this work for hire that works in Hollywood doesn't work in
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  games industry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I see.
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  SPEAKER_00: It comes all from that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And also, and that's the controversial part.
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  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people think that the cultural wars, they are here.
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  SPEAKER_00: But generally,
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  a lot of people think that it's some evil management that's
• 8:58
  forcing the creators to
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: do something.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I would say that it's the opposite.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's coming from the creators, actually.
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  I would even dare to say that some companies are not liking it
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  and they don't know
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  SPEAKER_00: what to do about it.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: But generally, we can see it now in movies that they are a little bit...
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: or sometimes a lot kind of for a non-existent audience, I would say.
• 9:26
  Even in Hollywood,
• 9:27
  they are currently making movies sometimes for non-existent audience.
• 9:31
  And if you look at the old movies from the 80s or 90s,
• 9:35
  I know Spielberg movies like E.T.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Extraterrestrial, it's set in some small town with quite normal people
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  SPEAKER_00: Everybody can relate to them.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are behaving like normal people from small town.
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  And when you look at a lot of movies today,
• 9:56
  they are about people from California.
• 9:59
  rich people from California very often that have very different
• 10:02
  problems that
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: normal people have.
• 10:04
  So there is this kind of difference between what basically I
• 10:08
  would say that the
• 10:08
  creators are making movies about themselves or they are using
• 10:13
  cliches that they see
• 10:15
  in other movies and they kind of stopped doing movies about
• 10:20
  regular people that are
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  SPEAKER_00: still existing
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: in the majority of the world, USA or whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I would love to see a movie from Montana, for example.
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  SPEAKER_00: And tell me some.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about any movie from Montana.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when there is some,
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  SPEAKER_00: I usually like it when there is not,
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  SPEAKER_00: when it's a different setting and stuff.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the same can be applied to games.
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  SPEAKER_00: When you look at the games from the 90s, the
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  scale of topics and different genres was,
• 10:47
  I would dare to say,
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  larger than it's today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: Well, certainly from the, maybe from the AAA space, certainly.
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  I guess the risk of these AAA games are so high,
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  you know,
• 10:56
  you've got 250 employees now,
• 10:58
  right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_02: You've been making the game for...
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: six years or was that how long it's been in development for?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's a... I imagine that's a... It's very tough, yes.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: So how have you got away with it then?
• 11:12
  How have you been able to say to Embracer and Pion or Koch and
• 11:16
  all those sort of people,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 11:18
  Actually Embracer had,
• 11:21
  I believe it still has,
• 11:23
  the idea that Lars,
• 11:25
  who is a CEO,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: is giving the studios a lot of freedom.
• 11:31
  So generally we had a lot of trust and we could do basically
• 11:35
  whatever we wanted.
• 11:36
  So there was almost zero outside influence on the creative
• 11:42
  decisions on the game,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: which is great if it works and when you are not insane.
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  I understand that the corporation wants to have some control
• 11:54
  over the final product
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  SPEAKER_00: when it invests a lot of money,
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  SPEAKER_00: but generally we had a lot of freedom and it worked.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I guess you've got a proven track record.
• 12:03
  Well,
• 12:03
  but I tell you,
• 12:04
  it's obviously 2019 it started development or something like that.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you had the lockdowns,
• 12:08
  like you started making the game and immediately COVID hit and
• 12:11
  you were locked down.
• 12:12
  How was that experience going through sort of early development
• 12:16
  when getting to the
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: office wasn't always possible?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was weird.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was definitely probably a slowdown.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Initially it was very problematic,
• 12:24
  but then a lot of people learned to work from home and it's
• 12:28
  somehow working.
• 12:29
  I was working from home in the final stages a lot because I was
• 12:33
  playing the game,
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: reporting bugs,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: and for that you don't necessarily need to be in the office that much.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: But generally,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: it was a slowdown,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: definitely,
• 12:42
  especially in the beginning when you didn't know what's
• 12:45
  happening and if it's end
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: of the world or not.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: But generally, the game is very complicated.
• 12:51
  I would dare to say that what we did is the most complicated
• 12:57
  type of game that you
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: can choose to make.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: It has everything other games have and
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes even more complicated than other games.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we have, it's an RPG, but we have a combat system.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have a simulation of people.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have a large open world with as good graphics as possible.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have mini games,
• 13:18
  basically some part of our game could be standalone games on
• 13:22
  mobile phones or something.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really insane amount of work,
• 13:27
  very complicated to kind of put it together and make it the
• 13:32
  final product.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of conversation around AAA,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: and I think it's because we've had a bunch of AAA flops recently,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: and around whether or not that business even works.
• 13:42
  But then obviously something like this comes along and it
• 13:45
  proves that it can.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not really a question there,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: but I think it just shows that a lot of games lately have been
• 13:54
  really focused on one or two features and have tried to do
• 13:56
  those features really,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: really well to be able to make things on a budget.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I've read the reviews.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've not played the game yet,
• 14:02
  but I've seen so much of the game through stories on social
• 14:06
  media about comedy
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: skits from what guards are saying and all this kind of stuff.
• 14:10
  These things used to be everyone was making these games at one
• 14:13
  point and now it
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: feels like people are starting to pull back.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: So you are proving that, you know, there is no one way to approach this.
• 14:19
  have to say it's kind of weird for me as well because when you
• 14:21
  look for example at
• 14:22
  the comparison of old games and new games which is very popular
• 14:26
  on youtube now like
• 14:28
  look what this old rpg could do and what the new one cannot and
• 14:33
  sometimes i'm quite
• 14:34
  surprised because those features that are missing in the new
• 14:38
  games are actually not
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: about
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Assets currently,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 14:47
  are the most expensive thing to create the models that are much
• 14:52
  better than they
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: were before.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: But to program a feature where,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: arrows don't disappear when you shoot them,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: it's very similar to 20 years ago.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: If it worked 20 years ago, it should work today.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So just nobody cares about it, it seems to me, I guess.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we do have such...
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: attention to detail.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: We know that people like it and it works.
• 15:19
  And it's kind of surprising to me that nobody cares about such
• 15:21
  details anymore.
• 15:23
  It might be because the games are really much more expensive to
• 15:27
  make and the asset
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: creation is very complicated.
• 15:31
  But then it's still maybe it's about the focus of the people in
• 15:34
  charge that they
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: will kind of pay attention to such details and they don't.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about the studio,
• 15:43
  because the studio has doubled in size over the course of the
• 15:46
  game's development,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: almost.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Have you had to change how you operate?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Has that brought a cultural change?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite a big jump in numbers.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's much more bureaucracy.
• 15:59
  All those sayings that when you hire more people,
• 16:02
  it doesn't mean more work are actually true.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody knows who hired more people.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's much more bureaucracy.
• 16:11
  Some of the things get even more complicated than when you have
• 16:13
  fewer people.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: When you know everyone, you can
• 16:18
  just like do stuff by talking to people and all of a sudden you
• 16:23
  have meetings for
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: everything and schedules and plans and everything.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's much more complicated and it's definitely slow down,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't know the recipe,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: how to make it less complicated.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just goes with the size of the project, I guess.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: we're seeing a lot of AAA,
• 16:40
  particularly new ones that are starting up sort of try and keep
• 16:43
  the core team lean
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: and using a lot of outsourcing or at least that's what everyone's saying.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how people are actually doing that at the moment.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I think they often say the same thing,
• 16:53
  like it's nice when you can just walk up to people and see over
• 16:56
  their shoulder what
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: they're working on and stuff.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there's that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess you've gone from one to the other.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: But,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: if the product at the end is still working,
• 17:03
  then I assume you're still capturing a bit of the magic that
• 17:06
  you had before.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's also sometimes,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm just guessing here,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: when you have a company that spends like 200 million dollars on a game,
• 17:19
  they're trying to kind of do a lot of versions and when they
• 17:23
  are not happy,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: they start from scratch and stuff like that,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: which makes the games more expensive.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe if they will just make more $50 million games,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: three would be flop and one will make money,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: maybe.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: They are so afraid about the risk,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: potential risks,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: that they spent a lot of money on everything and they iterate too much,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would say.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: when they could miss the ideal release date,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: times change and people don't like this genre anymore or stuff like that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So they're getting faster,
• 18:00
  cheaper and with more risk would probably could solve some of
• 18:03
  those issues.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, hopefully.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: there's been some investors in the last couple of weeks,
• 18:08
  and they've been saying that they're backing companies that are
• 18:11
  not looking for
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: those bigger budgets.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean indies, but sort of AA.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what you describe them as.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: People making big games, but on smaller budgets, leaner, faster.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things you mentioned there is,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: you make a game that you think would be popular now,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: and in four or five years,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: trends have moved on,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: the market shifted and changed,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: and then you're difficult to react,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: and it just feels a bit safer.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: actually,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I will ask you about that,
• 18:33
  because obviously we've seen lots of AAA studios struggling
• 18:36
  simply closing.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: Embrace, of course, your parent company's had some challenges.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, we've seen the back of a lot of those.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you've been following the situation.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a view on it from your side?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you've had success.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: You probably feel quite stable in comparison.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: But what do you make of what you've seen in the market?
• 18:53
  So this is a little bit weird because,
• 18:55
  and it's hard to judge from here,
• 18:56
  because I'm not...
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: that much aware of the situation in the United States.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess that with the success and during COVID,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: everybody was doing so great that the expenses grew up too much.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And now it has to cool down a little bit.
• 19:14
  So some cuts are necessary,
• 19:18
  but generally I don't know if the industry is doing bad.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like it was spending too much.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're necessary and the good times have ended, let's say.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So now they have to adjust it again.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm afraid that such situation is good for the industry.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's bad for the people who lose their jobs and stuff.
• 19:42
  But generally,
• 19:43
  it will clean the waters,
• 19:45
  make people think about efficiency a little bit more.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: They will change directions with genres and stuff like that.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: They will kind of...
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: look at the industry with some fresh ideas, let's say, hopefully.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully the things we are talking about will change,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: that there will be more games that people
• 20:09
  want more risk will be taken and and stuff like that yeah yeah
• 20:14
  sort of and i guess
• 20:15
  that's going back to what you said before which is people
• 20:18
  making games for gamers
• 20:20
  as opposed to an essay making games for themselves and even
• 20:23
  though it's a lovely
• 20:23
  idea uh it's not always the most um financially sensible um one
• 20:29
  and it's ultimately
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know you can spend a long time making something that
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: that the audience is going to react to.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully.
• 20:35
  And hopefully maybe some people who kind of lost the spirit
• 20:41
  because of how industry
• 20:42
  works will return or start new companies and start to try to do
• 20:46
  new stuff.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would really welcome some fresh air and new stuff.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'd go along with that.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: You look at the stuff that did well last year,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: it was,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:58
  stuff that either we hadn't seen before or we hadn't seen for a
• 21:00
  long time.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: People bringing back stuff like Space Marine 2,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: for instance,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: was a sort of game I hadn't seen for a while like that.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then I look at the things that didn't do well,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: and it was the stuff that,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: might have been pretty good,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: actually,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: but it had been done before.
• 21:14
  And I guess when people got so much stuff they can play and
• 21:17
  watch and listen to or whatever,
• 21:19
  If you're going to try and convince people to play your thing
• 21:21
  and engage in your thing,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: you've got to give them something to get excited about,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: rather than say,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: this is like the other thing you like.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: What's your long-term goal for Warhorse?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've got to a certain size.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: You've just released this big epic game that's done so well.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: And is it to continue on this track or are you where you want to be?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: What's your ambition now?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: I want to rest a little bit.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was really tough.
• 21:52
  I had some serious health issues last year from all the stress
• 21:55
  and stuff like that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I really need to slow down a little bit.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of ideas what to do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Time is short.
• 22:04
  It really annoys me that the games take so much time to do
• 22:08
  because I have more
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: ideas than I have time,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: definitely.
• 22:13
  So there are a couple of projects that I would love to do and I
• 22:18
  would love to
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: prepare them properly so it's not as chaotic.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that maybe AI revolution will kind of help with this,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: that in the future we will not be replaced by AI,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: but we will be helped by AI a lot.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the things could get easier and faster.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that it will happen.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: It would be great if this would happen.
• 22:47
  So generally I have a couple of big ideas that I would like to
• 22:51
  make that will
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: require a lot of time and preparation.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe I will focus on those.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Of course that there are some DLCs for the KCD2 and stuff like that,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: but that was already announced mostly.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So generally in the far future,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are still a couple of projects that I would like to do,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: and in my opinion,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: which have as big potential than KCD.
• 23:19
  You wouldn't expand the team further and just have two projects
• 23:23
  on the go at the same time?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Is that not how you'd work?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can't speak about these things, I guess.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I see.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, congratulations again on the game being so successful.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really difficult market to succeed in at the moment.
• 23:45
  And although it's an established series and it's obviously
• 23:47
  something that people
• 23:48
  know and love and you've got a big audience for it on Steam and
• 23:53
  console as well,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: then it makes sense to...
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: You launched the original game on Switch recently,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: didn't you?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: How was that experience?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was done by Saber.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't done by App mostly, so...
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Did you find, sorry, I'll rephrase the question.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Did you find that it,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: because interesting,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: I spoke to Firaxis recently about civilization on Switch,
• 24:15
  and they said actually the people that play on Switch are often
• 24:17
  the same people
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: that play on the other platforms.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: They just, they want to take it on the go with them.
• 24:22
  And I didn't know if that,
• 24:22
  I was under,
• 24:23
  did you find a new audience or was it the same audience?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, actually.
• 24:28
  I didn't have much numbers about it,
• 24:30
  but I have to say that I'm super surprised how
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: they managed to squeeze it on the Switch.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Initially,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: we thought that it's impossible,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: and they did awesome job,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: and the game is quite fine on the Switch.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's...
• 24:45
  a miracle,
• 24:45
  I would say,
• 24:46
  that they happened to make it possible on the Switch.
• 24:50
  But judging from my own experience,
• 24:51
  also,
• 24:51
  I have a Witcher on Switch,
• 24:53
  so my wife could play it.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So generally, it's something, as you said.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, excellent.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Daniel, for joining us.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a real pleasure.
• 25:03
  And good luck with the game and having that rest and whatever
• 25:08
  the big exciting
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: projects that might follow.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And for everyone at home, that is it for the Game Business Show today.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to hear more about what's going on in the games business,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: make sure you never miss a beat.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Head to thegamebusiness.com and join our free sub stack.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, thank you for listening.
• 25:28
  If you could be the creative director of any other game studio,
• 25:31
  which would it be?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Does old studios count as well?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Alive or dead?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to be part of the initial Fallout 1 and 2, maybe.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Greatest album of all time?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I listen to a lot of black metal.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: I like Endslate, for example, a lot.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think we will all be streaming video games one day?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, in some horizon, yes.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: What's your proudest achievement?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Probably this game.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And my kids, my kids, of course.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: My wife, she will.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Will Nintendo Switch 2 outsell Nintendo Switch 1?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: I would rather say no.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Are game subscriptions a good or a bad thing for the industry?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it's okay.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: PC or console?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: PC.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what is the greatest game of all time?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Original Fallout, Witcher, first RDR, Laser Squad.