Latest / The Future Herd / 17: Can We Eliminate Food Waste with Lori Nikkel

Transcript

17: Can We Eliminate Food Waste with Lori Nikkel · The Future Herd

0:00
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.
0:02
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:11
This episode with Lori Nikkel is really kind of special, and I say this in no
0:17
small part because of the access that Lori has had, the perspective, the insight
0:23
that she brings to this conversation, and it's without peer, without equal.
0:29
And I say this because there are lots of leaders who have confidence, who have
0:34
skills, who have opportunity, but Lori in particular has a perspective that
0:40
I think is both powerful and unique.
0:43
There are very few people who get to see our food system
0:47
from the positions and the.
0:50
The perspectives that Lori has, and this has afforded a kind of
0:54
literacy, a kind of understanding that I think is quite unique.
0:59
On the one hand it, it's a high advanced literacy, a kind of
1:04
intellectual understanding of not only where our food comes from,
1:08
but more importantly where it goes.
1:10
But it's also a practical understanding.
1:13
It's a familiarity with the infrastructure, both that Second
1:17
Harvest is building, but also the infrastructure that we as a society
1:21
need, not just to make sure that we don't waste any food, but also to
1:26
make sure that nobody goes hungry.
1:29
And this puts Lori in a very unique position, both, uh, the ability to imagine
1:35
a solution and the responsibility and capability to actually implement it.
1:42
And that's where this particular conversation foreshadows perhaps,
1:47
uh, uh, a, a looming food security crisis, but more importantly,
1:53
a food security strategy.
1:55
That actually starts to look at not only reducing our food waste, but changing
2:01
the way our entire food system works.
2:04
And I think that's why this conversation is not just inspiring, but affords
2:10
those of us listening to it, a kind of knowledge, a kind of literacy
2:15
that, uh, should be more widespread.
2:18
Now before we get into the episode, I do wanna mention a new pilot project that
2:23
we've launched here at The Future Herd.
2:26
It is a website called commons.thefutureherd.ca,
2:31
and you can find a link to it on our main website.
2:34
And we're using it as a way to not only add audience interaction, but to try to
2:40
find a new way of finding common ground.
2:43
Of looking for solutions, of talking about policy, of negotiating perceptions.
2:49
So it's kind of the iteration of , what might be the
2:52
comment section or the forums.
2:55
But we're gonna focus on topics that are relevant to this podcast and
2:59
relevant to our AgriFood system, beginning with food security.
3:05
So as you're listening to this podcast, open up our website,
3:09
commons dot the future herd.ca, and share your views on food security.
3:15
Alright, let's go.
3:16
Listen to Lori.
3:18
Welcome to The Future Herd.
3:20
What does the future mean to you?
3:24
Lori Nikkel: A really tough question right now that, uh, I honestly, I, I
3:28
don't think I can answer it adequately.
3:30
I am feeling very positive and hopeful, I'll tell you that about a lot of things.
3:34
So if I can just kind of focus on what does my future
3:38
hold, not the global future.
3:41
Uh, for Second Harvest.
3:42
I mean, we are.
3:44
We're gonna continue to try to eliminate and minimise food waste as much as
3:48
possible across this country, and that is our goal is to close our business in
3:52
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
3:52
Right on that.
3:53
That's actually an excellent answer.
3:54
It is meant to be a difficult question to kinda, you know, get
3:58
us started, uh, in a manner that is very, uh, uh, momentum building, but.
4:04
I also wanna start by acknowledging an interview you recently did with
4:08
our friends at capi, uh, who are kind of a, a sibling organisation of
4:13
ours in the sense that I wanna build upon that and, and kind of encourage
4:18
listeners to maybe even stop now.
4:20
Go listen to that episode and return.
4:23
But you know, there was one question, one insight I got from that interview that I
4:27
wanted to throw at you right at the start before we talk about Second Harvest and
4:31
the larger sectoral issues, which is what is it about working in the service sector,
4:38
whether in a restaurant or in a bar, or a similar kind of client facing experience.
4:44
The leaders I've met who have that as kind of their lore, their origin story.
4:51
They tend to have exceptional abilities that you don't always see in other leader.
4:56
So I'm curious if you could gimme some insight into the value of having
5:01
that as part of one's uh, repertoire.
5:05
Lori Nikkel: I like, I really believe all per, all people should work
5:09
in service when they're younger.
5:10
Like service being like retail or, or bars or, you know, uh, anything
5:16
that is public facing because.
5:19
Unless you do that, you have a very narrow scope of what the world is.
5:23
But once you start doing that, you will encounter so many personalities, so many
5:28
different, um, styles, and your job is to figure out how to make them happy.
5:34
And that's it.
5:35
And so it's like I'm come from the bar and restaurant industry, and that is
5:39
a very, very fluid, very busy, very, you know, um, responsive and all of
5:47
it with a smile on your face because you know you're working for tips.
5:49
So you, your job is to make sure everybody's having
5:52
the best experience ever.
5:53
And I think that's just so good for life lessons of knowing,
5:56
like, I've got just sat 12 tables.
5:59
I'm still gonna figure out how to get what they need in the best way possible.
6:02
And often that's just about managing your personality to
6:05
suit whoever you're dealing with.
6:08
And that's just, I think everybody should have that skill to some extent it
6:12
Jesse Hirsh: And I think there's an inherent empathy, a a kind of human
6:16
connection that to your point, you, you.
6:19
By necessity have to develop and foster And, and that kind of leads me to the
6:24
first question I wanted to throw at you, which again, it, it, it precludes
6:29
us talking about the organisational stuff, but what are the through lines of
6:33
our conversations around food security and in particular food insecurity
6:38
that keeps coming up is dignity.
6:40
Lori Nikkel: Insecurity that
6:41
Jesse Hirsh: the role, uh, of dignity as a focus, as almost a design principle.
6:46
And I bring it up now because I was thinking about that when you were talking
6:50
about the value of being involved in the service industry in that I think you kind
6:56
of centre that sense of dignity to the user experience, the customer experience.
7:02
So I, I'd love, you know, to start off on that kind of blue
7:05
sky, big picture sense of.
7:07
Given the, the incredible experience you've had, the journeys you, you've
7:13
been able, the experiences, the people you've met in the sector.
7:17
Where do we stand when it comes to, uh, ensuring that dignity is central to the
7:21
way in which we think of food, the way in which we think of hunger, and the way
7:25
in which we think of food security as a.
7:28
Lori Nikkel: I mean, I think most people that work in this sector, I, and I,
7:31
I'm gonna say all people because I've yet to come across anybody that isn't,
7:34
that comes from that space, right?
7:36
Of compassion and empathetic and not sympathetic, right?
7:41
Like, if you're coming in sympathetically, that means you are, uh, have already
7:44
positioned yourself as better than.
7:46
And so I think the whole, the sector as a whole is, we're all just trying
7:51
to do the right thing because.
7:53
This can happen to everybody and not everybody.
7:56
If you're in the top, like 1% of billionaires, but you have no idea who is
8:00
struggling with food insecurity right now.
8:02
Like you have.
8:02
No, everybody thinks they have this Id idyllic of, not idyllic, but like
8:05
this idea of this is the person, it's intense city, or it's the person
8:09
asking for money on the street.
8:10
It is not, or it's not even the person staying in the food bank.
8:13
Right.
8:13
Like one of the things that I was food insecure, but my children were food
8:17
insecure and we never went to a food bank.
8:19
I, I, that's not fair.
8:20
I went once and they were wonderful, but I'm like.
8:22
There was a space in my brain that I just couldn't like believe my life was here.
8:27
Like what has happened to my life.
8:28
I never thought this would happen to me, so I accessed food in a very different
8:32
way through the Child Nutrition programme and working In Child Nutrition, and I
8:37
think by providing spaces where people can access food, where it's not an automatic,
8:43
you're getting this, you're here because of the food really core to what.
8:49
Our sector does.
8:50
Right?
8:50
So we did, um, a mapping a few years ago to find out where is everybody
8:54
accessing food across the country.
8:56
We know that the food bank network has about 5,500 but there's
9:00
way more 61,000 places, right?
9:04
Like 61,000 places people are accessing food and they might be
9:07
coming in for addiction treatment or mental health treatment, or
9:13
afterschool programmes or school.
9:15
But the reason they're coming in is not food, even though often
9:19
the reason they're coming is food, but it doesn't look like that.
9:23
I think that's really important is meeting people where they are.
9:25
Because all that will happen is if you don't, then they won't go.
9:30
And then, then what, right?
9:32
Like we know that having access to healthy food is good for health.
9:36
It's good for educational outcomes, it's important for economic stability.
9:40
It's not just giving someone food.
9:41
There's a huge systemic piece behind it all that I think
9:45
we lose sight of sometimes.
9:46
So I mean that's just core to how I think charities in general operate.
9:51
We are empathetic people often, A lot of us have been there.
9:54
We understand it.
9:56
those who have it really try hard to understand it by immersing themselves
10:00
in those kind of situations.
10:01
So, and I don't think that's just true for the charitable sector.
10:04
To be fair, I think everybody.
10:07
They start good and, and stuff happens and sometimes, you know, they stray, but
10:11
I believe everybody has it in them to be compassionate and helpful and wonderful.
10:17
And then, you know, just
10:20
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and to your point, I would love to spend a a bit of time
10:23
unpacking those contact points, the diversity of places that people interact
10:29
with, with these kinds of services, especially given Second Harvest,
10:33
enabling role as infrastructure.
10:35
But I, I, I wanna tease out something you kind of implicitly inferred there,
10:39
which is this sense of unity, which I've always, as I'm a relative newcomer
10:45
to this sector in the sense that my background's kind of in technology and
10:49
there is a lot of, uh, implicit unity.
10:52
You talked about it in terms of people really wanting to do
10:54
this, the empathy that's there.
10:57
But I also see unity around food waste and food waste diversion in that I
11:02
don't think there's anyone in the industry who are like, yeah, it's good
11:06
and we should do nothing about it.
11:08
Right.
11:08
And, and, and you could correct me if I'm wrong.
11:11
It it excellent, excellent.
11:13
Because it, it strikes me that it's more an issue of what do
11:17
we do and how do we handle it.
11:20
Well, again, this is where your unique vantage point is
11:23
able to correct my, my cliche.
11:26
A, where is that disunity now that you're bringing it up, but B, where is then that
11:33
commonality when, when dealing with the issue of food waste and waste diversion.
11:37
Lori Nikkel: So I will agree with you that nobody produces food, manufactures
11:41
food, you know, sells food, buys food with the intent of wasting it.
11:45
I a hundred percent agree that's nobody starting at that space.
11:50
said that, we don't have $58 billion worth of avoidable food
11:54
loss if people are actually.
11:56
Unified and dealing with it.
11:58
So ta-da.
12:01
I mean, be fair, in 2019 when we first did the research, it was 58% of all
12:05
food, all food produced for Canadians.
12:07
58% was lost or wasted.
12:09
That is a ridiculous number, but nobody was talking about it, kind
12:14
of the cost of doing business and it just wasn't, there was no light on it.
12:19
It just wasn't a thing.
12:20
It was just, this is business and that's how business operates.
12:22
So say in the last like six or seven years.
12:26
We're seeing a huge shift, right?
12:27
Like people are thinking about it at home.
12:29
Industry is thinking about it.
12:30
We did the research again last year.
12:32
58% went down to 46.5%.
12:36
Fantastic.
12:37
Still a terrible number.
12:38
Really like it's almost half.
12:40
What was concerning was there was more avoidable, which is edible stuff that we
12:43
should all be eating and, and so where the lack of unity is, is a, as a country, we
12:52
don't have a national food waste strategy.
12:56
Other countries do and then they can tie all these things and you're
12:59
watching their waste decrease.
13:01
Well, you have to have a system in place.
13:03
We do have a system in place.
13:04
It's a bad system where we, we are great at producing food for Canadians.
13:08
We are terrible at getting them to eat it.
13:10
So what is that system that we have to implement across industry,
13:16
across government, so that we're all doing harmonising things?
13:21
So we are measuring it.
13:22
Like for me it's kind of, it sounds simple.
13:24
I know it's complicated, but it's not really, we all have
13:27
to measure it the same way.
13:28
There has to be a standardisation of how we are managing food waste.
13:32
So like first we have to measure it, set a goal, hit the goal, that
13:38
would tremendously impact the amount of food that was being wasted.
13:41
And so I am a vice chair of Canadian Standards Association.
13:45
We do have a new.
13:47
Standard that we've developed.
13:48
We've also, I'm also the Canadian delegate for, uh, iso.
13:51
And so there's this new food waste management system that
13:54
this was the final year.
13:55
Now it's going to ISO for final approvals and all that, so that big
13:59
food will pick up, right, because they're gonna tie it into their food.
14:02
Um, safety, we made it very close to food safety, so it's not like implementing
14:06
a brand new thing, like there's.
14:09
To it.
14:09
But that's good for global, big, so good for mid small because,
14:14
and that's what we're made up in Canada, a lot of mid small.
14:16
So there has to be some thoughtful, uh, policy and not regulations.
14:22
I don't like regulations, but some kind of policy or framework that we're all working
14:26
Jesse Hirsh: Right on and, and.
14:28
I, I, I, you raised a bunch of important points that, that
14:30
I want to tease outta there.
14:32
Perhaps most important is getting people to change their perception of what is okay
14:37
to eat and, and changing their psychology around the food that's available because,
14:42
uh, that does strike me as both low hanging fruit, but also a very big
14:47
challenge, uh, uh, when it comes to how the cultural dynamics of what people eat.
14:53
But before we go there, still within this policy realm, uh, uh, I, I, I, I'm my,
14:59
again, I'm getting so excited listening to you because I'm, I'm understanding
15:03
the potential and, and not just on the standards piece, which I agree
15:06
with you wholeheartedly, but around the framework around enabling both a
15:11
kind of national strategy, but to your point, empowering the smaller actors.
15:15
The smaller players, whether on the producer side or
15:19
even on the food bank side.
15:21
I, I'd love for you to.
15:22
To spitball Blue Sky.
15:23
Well, what are some initiatives, programmes, if we had the resources,
15:27
if, if, you know, WW we had the, the right infrastructure in place
15:32
beyond just what Second Harvest is doing, what would that look like?
15:36
Like what would the, the, the scenarios or the policies that,
15:39
that you'd love to see happen?
15:41
You know, give us some dreams here.
15:43
Give us some targets, uh, to shoot for.
15:46
Lori Nikkel: Well, first I'm gonna separate two things because
15:51
supporting people with food is an outcome of managing food waste.
15:55
is what we're gonna do with the food is feed people that does not.
15:59
In any way stop people from being food insecure systematically or sustainably.
16:04
It is providing a food.
16:05
So let's take those two apart.
16:07
There are two very different things.
16:09
And so food security, we need to work on poverty reduction.
16:13
How do we make sure people have enough money in their pockets?
16:15
So that's wage policy and ODSP policy, and there's a lot to unpack there.
16:21
Not my space.
16:22
Food banks are doing great.
16:24
Great job at supporting people, but also doing great at advocating
16:27
for those kind of policies.
16:28
And we a hundred percent support.
16:30
So we need to separate these two as thinking, well, this will solve that Uhuh.
16:35
What we need to do is manage the food waste, minimise it.
16:38
There's always gonna be some that's just a fact of life, but
16:41
it doesn't have to be this amount.
16:42
And ultimately, that's what I said earlier.
16:43
I'm like ultimately is to close Second Harvest.
16:45
Or maybe not close us, but to maybe change what we do, right?
16:49
Like we solved this problem, so.
16:51
What else are we gonna do, kind of thing.
16:53
That's really the goal.
16:54
And so that means there's a, there's a, the first piece is
16:58
always just what's the framework?
17:00
How do we get everybody on board?
17:01
And that means you have to speak to industry, like industry has to be a
17:05
big part of this conversation about what's already happening, can happen.
17:09
And I'm gonna give you a really good, uh, example of that.
17:13
Best Before dates account for 23% of all avoidable food loss.
17:16
And that's about $13 billion, which is.
17:20
A best before date so misunderstood in this country.
17:23
Misunderstood in every country.
17:24
So I'm not even, it's not even Canadian.
17:26
Like it's just misunderstood except for we are behind in Canada.
17:30
'cause we have a best before date where other countries that have food
17:33
waste strategies, they tie best before date to that food waste strategy.
17:37
And so they'll have Best Before.
17:39
And used by Best before is about peak freshness used by still
17:43
not about safety, but like, eh.
17:45
Just a better day.
17:47
We know that a lot of food that we're throwing away,
17:51
uh, we would be able to eat.
17:52
And after the zombie apocalypse, right?
17:54
Like, isn't that not just the Twinkies?
17:56
Right?
17:56
It's the dried beans.
17:57
It's a dried rice, it's a dried pasta.
17:58
It's a dry, like, there's a lot of dried food.
18:00
There's a lot of canned food that we are fine with.
18:02
So just for everybody's edification, only five foods expire in Canada.
18:08
Don't eat them after the expire date.
18:10
It's about the nutritional compliment of that food baby formula.
18:14
Meal replacements and protein bars, your baby needs nutrients.
18:18
If I need a meal replacement, I need the nutrients.
18:20
If I'm running a race and I need that caloric intake to be what it is, I
18:23
need that other ones prescription only.
18:26
Don't worry about it.
18:27
You can't even buy it in a grocery store.
18:29
Five foods that expire.
18:30
We have regulation around if a best before date is required on food
18:36
that has a 90 day shelf life or less dairy, you know, perishable foods.
18:43
Fine.
18:44
We'll leave those alone.
18:45
I mean, I think they're a bit conservative, but peace man.
18:48
Then we have this huge amount of food not require a best before date.
18:53
They're voluntary.
18:54
They're incredibly conservative.
18:56
the good news.
18:57
We're working with all the major retailers, retail Council of Canada,
19:00
with a number of manufacturers on how do we manage this better?
19:04
Can we remove some, like we work with food scientists as well to say, okay,
19:08
what is the outcome if you do this right?
19:10
Like they're not on just.
19:11
On, like, there are some reasons behind it, so I shouldn't
19:14
be so, uh, with my language.
19:17
But why, like, is there some ingredient that you should
19:20
just take out of it, right?
19:21
Like is salt should not, in my opinion, have a best before date,
19:24
but I've been argued with because of an ingredient that they add.
19:26
I'm like, well, I'll take it out.
19:28
That's just me being silly.
19:30
There's of them though, that they're like, okay, first it
19:33
was like, let's take 'em off.
19:35
And then we all got together and they're like, okay, if we can't take them off,
19:37
how do we evolve the system so at least it's more appropriate to the food?
19:42
So I think that's where we're gonna land and I'm, I'm thrilled, right?
19:44
Like
19:45
Jesse Hirsh: Both of.
19:45
Lori Nikkel: the first step is always the hardest and the best step because then
19:48
at least you're moving in a direction.
19:50
And so nobody's disagreeing with that.
19:53
Like major retail is all involved.
19:54
Like nobody, everybody wants to do this.
19:57
So then the challenge becomes, okay, we're gonna do this.
20:00
Consumers are not gonna understand this and we're gonna get a lot of
20:04
complaints, like a hundred percent agreed.
20:06
We, we have really misled consumers in this country and we assume
20:10
that this best before data is only throwing things at the end
20:12
Jesse Hirsh: Something.
20:13
Lori Nikkel: it's right up the supply chain.
20:14
Like it's a manufacturers, we'll get call for 200 skids of tomatoes
20:18
or tomato sauce or whatever.
20:21
That's where we lose most of our food.
20:23
So then, okay, if all grocery can get involved and, and is
20:26
interested, and they are, let's do a consumer campaign, store level.
20:30
It's one of the last places everybody congregates, Like if you're trying to
20:35
get a message out, there's just way too many, there's too much content.
20:39
It's hard to get a message out to the masses.
20:41
Well, if you all run the same campaign in all the grocery stores and like
20:45
online grocery shopping, then the message is there, you know, you'd
20:49
have to do it for a couple years.
20:50
For sure, but at least you're all kind of row in the same direction.
20:55
I think doing that will have a tremendous impact because then what?
21:00
Then you can move that needle along around best four days.
21:02
So then we're like, okay, so we have it solved it, but we've
21:05
definitely moved it in the
21:06
Jesse Hirsh: I suspect I'm gonna be responding to a lot
21:08
of your answers with Right on.
21:11
Uh, if only because this is the kind of stuff that, that I've been
21:14
pining for, for quite some time.
21:16
But l let me throw you a kind of advanced follow up there.
21:20
It strikes me that, that.
21:23
The user literacy, the eater literacy is a key linchpin here for any kind of success.
21:30
How do we incentivize the private sector to take the lead on that?
21:34
Because on the one hand I can see the clear benefit to them.
21:38
Go ahead.
21:39
Lori Nikkel: Like I, that's what I'm saying.
21:41
Industry and retail are taking the lead on this.
21:43
I mean, second Harvest started this campaign.
21:46
Everybody got on board.
21:47
So that's the beauty.
21:48
You don't have to incentivize
21:49
Jesse Hirsh: mean, but gimme an example.
21:51
'cause.
21:51
Lori Nikkel: So now it's a matter
21:52
Jesse Hirsh: I, I, I say this only because I'm not seeing it, and, and I
21:56
am, you know, in my own modest way of a fairly attentive food researcher part of
22:02
what you're describing, certainly from the standards level, I'm, I'm kind of
22:06
assuming is happening behind the scenes, especially to your point about removing
22:10
an extraneous ingredient in salt, that it would radically extend the shelf life.
22:16
But what I'm still not seeing the kind of literacy campaigns
22:20
that I think are necessary.
22:21
And again, we could just stick to the best before stuff like you
22:25
saying that there's only five foods.
22:28
That true.
22:29
Like not only is that incredibly radical from where I'm coming
22:33
from, but it's powerful.
22:35
Like it's a reflection of the confidence you have.
22:38
In the food system and the knowledge that you've acquired as kind of part
22:43
of your profession, you may take that for granted, but those of us here
22:47
in the cheap seeds, we're like, wow.
22:49
Preach sister.
22:51
'cause it's radical compared to how the culture currently sees its food.
22:56
Well, please correct me again if you think I'm wrong.
22:59
Lori Nikkel: You are not wrong.
23:01
I'm saying 'cause it hasn't happened yet.
23:02
What has happened is the conversations, to your point, the scenes are happening.
23:07
And so that's huge movement than even two years ago, right?
23:11
Or three years ago that we are making a huge amount of pro progress
23:16
now to build out that campaign.
23:17
It's probably gonna take another year or two to be fair.
23:21
you know, when you're working with a huge number of organisations and
23:24
industry, nothing really moves that fast.
23:26
Um, 'cause there's risk.
23:29
And so we all have to mitigate whatever risks that we think
23:31
that we have to manage.
23:32
And so that's happening.
23:33
So I'm just saying like, yes, you don't see it yet, it is
23:36
happening behind the scenes.
23:37
Like there will be, and that's best before dates only to be fair expiry dates.
23:42
I mean that is, there has to be some kind of personal accountability
23:47
in my opinion too, right?
23:48
Like I get we're all busy and we don't know.
23:50
not like a hard Google search.
23:51
So, so you, if you, if it really matters to you, if it doesn't really matter
23:56
to you, then, you know, have at it.
23:59
But CFIA does a really good job of, of, um, building awareness there
24:05
except for who's really following CFIA.
24:08
So they had a great campaign, but again, I think that goes back to is where's the
24:12
Jesse Hirsh: and, and.
24:14
Lori Nikkel: right?
24:14
And so I think part of that campaign would be, these are the parts that
24:17
Jesse Hirsh: And, and unfortunately, and, and I say unfortunately partly
24:21
'cause I'm a big believer in small D democracy, uh, A-C-F-I-A has been facing
24:26
some legitimacy challenges, particularly from farmers around traceability issues.
24:32
It's kind of.
24:33
Compounded or complicated by conspiracy and disinformation
24:37
stuff from social media.
24:39
But, but you said something I think really interesting and, and
24:42
that's why I wanted to preface by saying I'm, I'm a fan of C-C-F-I-A.
24:46
I am a fan of regulation.
24:48
Is there, is there a danger that we focus on safety at the expense of hunger?
24:56
Is there a danger that, to your point about personal responsibility,
25:01
rather than focusing on literacy and informing the public, we
25:06
kind of err on the side of safe.
25:09
Regulations that then inadvertently create food waste or perhaps
25:15
disincentivize the reduction of waste.
25:18
I'm kind of rambling as I try to form this question, but do, do you get what
25:22
I'm, where I'm trying to go with this?
25:25
Lori Nikkel: I think.
25:25
I think so.
25:26
But hey man, we are known globally for the food, our safety, and so
25:31
I'm not ever going to advocate not to have safe food, period.
25:35
The end, yeah, there are often unintended outcomes for almost everything.
25:41
And so instead of saying, let.
25:43
You know, move the safety for the benefit of this?
25:46
No, no, no, no.
25:46
You look at the system.
25:48
Where's the system breaking down?
25:49
We're always gonna make sure that that food is safe.
25:52
That's one of the reasons I love this country, is because we have safe food.
25:55
But if there's a system breakdown, let's fix that piece of it.
25:59
Let's not just look at it all and say, well, 'cause of this, this is happening.
26:03
Well, it's a small part of the chain.
26:05
Let's figure out what the small part of the chain is.
26:07
it.
26:08
I, and also we export a lot of food and it's really important
26:11
for our economy to do that.
26:13
So again, one of the reasons that we can do that is because
26:16
we have very, very safe food and regulation in place to keep it safe.
26:21
I'm not, to be fair, I'm not on the ins and outs of what's happening with
26:23
the farmers and CFIA right now, so I can't speak to it 'cause I have
26:26
no idea what you're talking about.
26:28
And maybe there is some legitimacy to whatever that is.
26:31
I don't know.
26:32
But that means to me, just look deeper at the problem and see where you can.
26:36
you can mitigate it without, without creating more risk of unsafe
26:41
Jesse Hirsh: and lemme try to create a. A compounded question here that,
26:46
that connects a whole bunch of points that, that you've brought
26:48
up in, in our conversation today.
26:50
And let me start by saying, I think the most credible leaders are the ones
26:55
who want to make themselves obsolete.
26:57
Who, you know, rather than seek power for power's sake, recognise that the
27:02
organisation they're building, the mandate they have is designed to, you know,
27:07
become obsolete to solve the problem and evolve and become something else.
27:12
Lori Nikkel: A problem.
27:12
Jesse Hirsh: Um.
27:13
But with that said, it, it strikes me we have a kind of paradox where, on
27:17
the one hand, certainly the agriculture sector really wants to scale, really
27:21
wants to focus on more exports.
27:24
A big national policy is around more processing and increasing Canada's
27:29
food processing capabilities.
27:31
And it strikes me that if we focus on that growth without implementing
27:36
the kind of strategy or for.
27:37
Framework that you're describing, we could actually make the conditions for food
27:42
waste worse before we have an opportunity to actually try and make them better.
27:48
What role then does an organisation, uh, like Second Harvest, let alone
27:54
the diverse, smaller organisation that are then connected to you
27:58
to help distribute all this food?
28:01
W. They play within this changing dynamic and, and maybe this is a question of
28:07
scarce resources or resource allocation, but it's also me looking to you as a
28:12
leader saying, you know, what do we have to watch out when all this talk about
28:16
growth happens to make sure that we don't lose sight of the need for this framework
28:21
and the need to address a, a food waste.
28:25
Lori Nikkel: Wow, you have just set me up for the best answer.
28:28
Canada is working on a food security strategy right now, and, uh, pillars
28:33
inside of that are food waste.
28:34
So like this again, is something that's happening.
28:38
We, we, they understand the importance and it's not just one ministry.
28:42
Even though some of it sits, a lot of it sits under egg.
28:44
It's multiple ministries because they understand that there are other.
28:49
Consequences to things.
28:50
So this is already happening.
28:52
Um, so we should have a food waste strategy in the next couple of months.
28:55
And food waste is a big part of it.
28:57
'cause they don't wanna make those mistakes, right?
28:58
But
28:59
Jesse Hirsh: Okay.
28:59
Lori Nikkel: it's are moving fast.
29:02
I'm not gonna disagree with that.
29:03
Sometimes you're gonna break things when you move fast, but at least you're moving
29:06
and take the risk and move because.
29:08
When you make the mistake, at least you, made the mistake and you fix it, and then
29:12
you, you're better for it in the end.
29:14
So let's not look for perfect.
29:15
Like, let's not, look for good, let's look for good and don't
29:20
let perfect be the enemy of
29:22
Jesse Hirsh: And with that in mind, you know, sticking to the
29:25
hypothetical in that, you know, neither of us know for certain what
29:29
the details o of this strategy will be, let alone how it's implemented.
29:34
But a, a give me a, an opportunity on a scenario level to imagine.
29:39
You know, not in the utopian, but in the hopeful, optimistic side,
29:43
how this will impact both kind of end users, but also those small
29:47
organisations that you keep mentioning.
29:50
And, and I say this selfishly 'cause that's something I'm gonna be pursuing
29:54
in future episodes is, is really trying to understand some of those
29:57
kind of a, a frontline, you know, where the, the contact points are.
30:02
But gimme your ideal scenario.
30:04
Like if, if everything worked out the way you wanted, what would
30:07
that end user experience be?
30:10
So that w we, we have a metric, we get a sense of where we should
30:13
be going so that we, we don't lose sight of that potential target.
30:18
Lori Nikkel: Sure.
30:18
I mean, a lot of the times we just don't know what we don't know.
30:22
And so like when I became CEO here, I'm like, we're a food waste organisation.
30:27
Let's shift the lens.
30:28
So it's food waste.
30:29
How much food is being wasted in Canada?
30:32
Nobody had done it.
30:33
Nobody had measured it.
30:34
Like, okay, well let's measure it.
30:35
Let's hire somebody and get this done.
30:38
Same with the charities across the country.
30:39
So now I'm like, you're right.
30:41
We have a processing issue in this country.
30:42
So what's the issue?
30:45
Where are all the processors in the country?
30:46
What are they processing?
30:47
How much room do they have on the line?
30:48
Like, let's figure that piece out.
30:50
So again, we are a Second Harvest is doing that.
30:53
We are, we've commissioned Value Chain Management International and we've
30:56
got an advisory group of industry and and government to figure out, okay.
31:00
What does this actually look like?
31:02
Like you can't fix a system until you actually see the system.
31:06
And so that's step one because I, I think for the end user, like one
31:10
of the challenges we have is we.
31:13
We rescue big food and small food.
31:15
So we have an app where it connects, say all the Starbucks to a local
31:19
charity or all the retail, all the retails are on it, and they'll
31:22
connect it to a local charity that has capacity to pick up smaller foods.
31:26
But when you get a call, and we do get these quite often, we have
31:28
2 million pounds of potatoes.
31:29
We have 4 million pounds of potatoes, we have 2 million pounds of this or that.
31:33
it's in its original form, so it's just pulled outta the ground dirty and it is
31:38
like bigger than this building I'm in.
31:40
Right?
31:40
Like you just.
31:42
It's huge amounts of potatoes.
31:43
So now we have to think, not to think we actually have to do,
31:47
okay, how do we make this, um, in a format that charities can accept it?
31:52
Because most charities are not big.
31:54
not Second Harvest.
31:55
Like we're the only place that can, you can call us and we'll say, yeah,
31:58
we'll take it and we'll figure it out.
32:00
So then we have to figure it out with a lot of charities across the
32:03
country, like, do you even have doc?
32:05
Do you have a cooler?
32:06
Do you have like all these things?
32:08
So this is all part of the app.
32:09
So we have all this information.
32:11
But then we have to figure out, okay, so now we have to get this washed and packed.
32:15
Well, who can wash and pack it?
32:17
We have places, but they're either full or sometimes it's like
32:22
the potato farm we got it from.
32:23
It's not their facility, and so we can't use it.
32:27
And there's a cost associated with all of this, right?
32:29
So I mean, you shouldn't say all.
32:30
No, there is, there's a, with everything.
32:33
So, so that's why I'm like, that's, that's why I'm looking at it.
32:36
I'm like, okay, how do we.
32:37
Make sure that when we collect all those food, we can get it
32:40
and we can say yes to everything.
32:42
And we've never said no.
32:42
We'll always say yes, but as the bigger the food becomes, the more often it
32:46
becomes, the more we have to figure out.
32:49
It's not just logistics anymore, it's packing, it's transforming.
32:53
How are we gonna do that?
32:53
Like right in, I'm like, I'm pointing to the warehouse in
32:56
Toronto, but we're building in a microprocessor so we can do that.
33:00
So when we get a bunch of one product, we can.
33:03
Clean it, cut it flash, freeze it, slow, release it.
33:06
Because that's another thing, right?
33:07
The charitable sector can only accept so much of whatever one product is.
33:11
I can only take so many cucumbers when there's a bunch of cucumbers, right?
33:15
And that could be, you know, a million pounds of cucumbers
33:18
where you can't, there's not a lot you can do with cucumbers.
33:20
There's not like you different than tomatoes where you can take a lot more.
33:24
So that is.
33:26
Problem in the country for not just charities, but for industry like
33:29
commercialised, like let's figure this out because it's not about the
33:32
charity, in my opinion, it's about the commercialisation of the sector a lot.
33:35
Why are we sending all this food the states to get processed, to bring back,
33:40
because we don't have, we need a stronger domestic supply chain, and that that's
33:44
Jesse Hirsh: This is why I love speaking to leaders like yourself
33:46
because you've amassed a kind of literacy, a unique systemic
33:51
literacy that very few people have.
33:53
And again, to you it's just kind of, oh yeah, this is how it works.
33:57
But to me it's, my mind is blowing with all these ideas.
34:01
'cause you.
34:01
Kind of accomplish something that universities could not, that industries
34:06
could not, which is engage in a research process to your point, map
34:11
out food waste, uh, across the country.
34:14
And then imagine the social and economic infrastructure to actually respond and
34:20
process and allocate it that kind of social, or even like transect, 'cause
34:26
you're transcending individual sectors.
34:29
That's the future of research.
34:31
If you were asking me and, and, and, and puts you as a leader
34:35
in a very unique position.
34:36
'cause you can see this system and infrastructure in a way that neither
34:41
the private sector nor the charitable sector, nor the academic sector
34:44
can 'cause you're kind of, you're, you're transcending all of them.
34:49
I, I say this as.
34:52
I, I saw there's been a couple of stories.
34:53
Quick tangent, then I'll come back.
34:55
There was a couple of stories in rural Saskatchewan recently about
34:58
food banks that had to limit, uh, how often people could use them.
35:02
And in my head I was trying to wonder why, and you kind of just gave me the
35:06
answer, that the issue is not food.
35:08
It's the system that processes and moves and reclaims and distributes
35:13
that food whi, which varies.
35:16
Okay, please go ahead.
35:18
Lori Nikkel: Because the food bank buys food, right?
35:22
So Second Harvest rescues food, all the food we get is rescued.
35:25
So issue is often money they are bulk buying food, like they rescue some, but
35:31
that's not their core business model.
35:33
And so when you're looking at a food bank that's slowing down, it's their, their,
35:37
they don't have the resources to purchase.
35:41
I would
35:42
Jesse Hirsh: As would I And, and I guess that's why, because I
35:45
have like yourself, become aware of how much food is being wasted.
35:50
My, my mind couldn't circle the loop, but, but again, you, you, you just
35:54
said something that I didn't know.
35:56
I just assumed that food banks were involved in waste diversion.
36:00
The, the second harvest, at least in the parts of the country that you're
36:04
active, uh, and, and operating.
36:06
I mean, there's, the app is one thing.
36:08
But then there's Second Harvest as as more deeper infrastructure in Southern Ontario.
36:14
Are you helping food banks kind of,
36:17
Lori Nikkel: Infrastructure across the country.
36:19
So we have the most sophisticated cold chain logistics system for this anywhere.
36:25
And we support all the food banks.
36:26
We give
36:27
Jesse Hirsh: and are they adapting?
36:28
Are they taking advantage of that?
36:30
Lori Nikkel: some.
36:32
Some are, some yes and some no.
36:35
Um, I think they're, they're trying to modernise their own systems, so,
36:38
and it's the truth of like every business, every, every community,
36:42
everything is different, right?
36:43
So it's, it's not as simple as, here take this and manage it.
36:47
It's not like they have their own systems in place that they have to
36:49
figure out how do they manage that.
36:51
And I will say to, to some extent, again, it becomes a problem of
36:56
commodity at one time of the year.
36:57
You can only take so much of it.
37:00
Allocate it out.
37:01
So there is like the, the, the second harvest model is we'll give you food,
37:07
all the food, like there's, and it's every, you know, we really focus on
37:10
perishable and dairy and protein and produce because that's really the
37:15
requirements of low income people.
37:17
But we can't say, we're gonna give you this and this and
37:20
this every month or every week.
37:22
We can't, like, we can set you up so you know what's coming
37:24
through the app and stuff.
37:25
But when it's huge food like that, they're kind of, it's less.
37:30
I shouldn't say less.
37:30
It's regular, but it's not like I can say on Tuesday you're gonna get, and so
37:35
they have to supplement by purchasing to be fair, because they, they are very
37:39
much, this is what you're gonna get.
37:42
We are not, we're like, yeah, we can guarantee these kind of
37:45
categories, but not necessarily the
37:47
Jesse Hirsh: doesn't that come back to the literacy piece in that it, it
37:51
does seem absurd to me that we don't.
37:55
Uh, by default think of eating food that's in season and don't by default
38:00
think of eating food like rice and beans, which, you know, are never gonna
38:05
spoil and are often quite affordable.
38:07
I, I'm not at all saying like, I'm a big proponent, we.
38:11
One of our earlier episodes, uh, with Tresco Watson from the Mustard
38:14
Seed Street Church in Victoria.
38:16
We were talking about how, you know, food banks should have luxurious food as well.
38:21
Like it shouldn't just be about cheap food, it should be all the same food that
38:25
everyone has access to, but we kind of have unrealistic expectations of what
38:31
we can eat when we want as a society.
38:34
I personally think that that actually contributes to the food waste issue.
38:40
I'm curious to come back to the cultural piece, and there's two sides to this.
38:44
You know, we, we talked about the dignity and empathy kind of at the start of
38:48
our conversation, but I think we're coming back into the culture around food
38:53
waste, both on an awareness level that I think you and I both want more people
38:59
to kind of be aware of the problem so that we can prioritise addressing it.
39:04
But then there's my larger point about eating food that's in season and
39:08
recognising that when we do have a surplus of potatoes or a surplus of cucumbers,
39:13
we should all be making cucumber salad and french fries to help deal with that.
39:18
Or am I a little too crazy here?
39:20
Lori Nikkel: there's so much, there's so much.
39:22
Jesse Hirsh: I.
39:23
Lori Nikkel: No, it's, we're talking about millions of pounds of things.
39:26
Like, so even you, my friend could not eat all of this, right?
39:29
Like there's just, there's a bumper crops, there's bumper
39:31
crops, there's overproduction.
39:32
So like, it is just a humongous amount.
39:35
And so that's not, it's like you'd be having potatoes every meal.
39:40
And that's your whole meal.
39:41
Like you can't have that, you have to have a diversity of food.
39:44
And I would say, you know, when I, I, I can speak to myself.
39:47
I've been low income.
39:48
I like now I think I'm gonna go back.
39:51
We've industrialised a food system so people don't
39:53
understand what food is, period.
39:55
Like we took it outta schools, we've industrialised it through
39:57
processing and like with the ingredient list and blah, blah, blah.
40:00
we watched what has happened to human beings as a result
40:04
of that, which is terrible.
40:05
So we need to un industrialise our food system so we can get back to the roots.
40:08
To your point.
40:10
When I was growing up, I know I'm old, but still we ate food that was in season.
40:13
'cause that's all that there was.
40:14
There was there.
40:15
We weren't bringing in a bunch of other food.
40:18
But now we're like, okay, we have to bring another food.
40:21
And we do.
40:21
We, we have, we are a country of immigration, so we have to
40:26
have food that is appropriate to the community you came from.
40:29
That's not fair not to have that either.
40:32
So there has to be a balancing of this.
40:35
Is, yeah, we can't have strawberries in the middle of winter.
40:38
Everybody let it go.
40:39
And the truth is, you know, most people can't afford them anyway.
40:41
So I think this just by sheer might weed itself out 'cause
40:46
people can't afford to buy them.
40:49
And so yeah, our whole food system is a mess.
40:52
Uh, no it's not.
40:53
That's not true.
40:54
whole food system is great.
40:55
We have a great food system.
40:56
There are problems within it, and there is a problem with
40:59
food literacy in this country.
41:02
Every other G seven country, all the western country where we have just
41:05
lost sight of what food is like.
41:07
It is here ensure that we live.
41:11
That's it.
41:11
It shouldn't be a commodity.
41:13
It shouldn't be for fun.
41:14
It should be of it.
41:16
Sure.
41:16
Have a bit of fun.
41:18
have to understand this is where your food comes from.
41:20
I, held up an apple in a school in Toronto and I've said, where does this come from?
41:24
And I, you know, the grocery store and really literally like, no
41:27
understanding where does milk come from?
41:29
Grocery store.
41:30
No.
41:31
Like, there's no connections to farm anymore, and I think that's a disservice
41:35
we've done, like, we're so urban centric that we've lost sight of the rule and
41:40
what keeps us all fed we need to figure out how to connect those dots better for
41:45
Jesse Hirsh: I, I.
41:47
Lori Nikkel: Because who doesn't love a farmer?
41:48
Man, farmer
41:50
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and as an aside, farmers have a kind of political
41:53
credibility that very few other members of society have, which
41:58
is, is a whole other tangent.
42:00
But you, you're, the literacy piece for me is, is something
42:03
I'm very passionate about.
42:04
I, I think it's a crucial, in an age of conspiracy and disinformation that we
42:09
foster food literacy and, and we help.
42:11
People understand the, the larger health and, and nutritional elements
42:16
there, you know, yay, high fibre.
42:18
Um, but there, there's something else I kind of wanted to dig in and, and
42:22
this is where I, I'm gonna evoke the F word because, uh, when it comes
42:27
to food, it feels like the word free I is, is kind of problematic.
42:32
Lori Nikkel: like.
42:33
Jesse Hirsh: And I say this as someone who used to describe my religion as being
42:36
all about the free lunch, that I would go anywhere to try to find a free lunch.
42:42
But how do we balance, on the one hand, the very clear need that some food should
42:49
be free with the other very clear need that some food should cost money so that
42:55
we pay farmers, so that we pay processors, so that we incentivize grocery companies.
43:01
All throughout the chain.
43:02
It, it, it strikes me that, to your point, as we start looking at the
43:06
contradictions, the paradoxes, the resilience, the amazing aspects of
43:11
our food system, there is this kind of tension between the need to pay for
43:16
food and, uh, the presence of free food.
43:19
'cause there is free food around.
43:21
We just don't always acknowledge it as such.
43:24
I'm rambling.
43:25
Uh, bail me out here.
43:27
Lori Nikkel: Okay.
43:28
Try follow your train of thought, like free food, because people are going
43:31
to charities to get food or free food.
43:33
Just in general,
43:34
Jesse Hirsh: A little bit of column A, a little bit of column
43:37
B, but as a researcher, I just have to acknowledge that giving away
43:42
food is central to our culture.
43:45
Religions do it, families do it.
43:48
Food banks do it.
43:50
Lori Nikkel: Sure.
43:51
Community.
43:53
Sure.
43:54
okay, I, I mean, I'm gonna draw a line, a hard line on this.
43:58
Food shouldn't be free unless it's required.
44:01
Food.
44:02
Farmers need to be paid.
44:04
People that work.
44:05
Oh my God.
44:06
Like what is agriculture?
44:07
How much of our economy food should not be free.
44:10
People should be paid appropriately for the work that they do, period.
44:13
Like the end.
44:14
Having said that, food becomes free in a church because it builds community.
44:19
So it's not actually free.
44:20
Someone bought it and is, or people are pot lucking, so people are paying for it.
44:24
And then you have the whole charitable sector where food
44:27
is free, but it's not free.
44:29
Like I'm like, it's, it's not, nothing's free in this world.
44:32
And.
44:34
And nor should it be like, yes, for sure we can look at cost analogies and
44:37
all that stuff, but I actually think our food is very cheap in this country.
44:40
though it keeps going up and up and up.
44:43
I shouldn't say cheap, it's inexpensive.
44:44
A lot of it can be inexpensive, but when you have nothing, it's huge, right?
44:49
Like when you, when your budget is taking up, 40% is food.
44:52
That's outrageous.
44:54
That's less about food, and more about, uh, the economy.
45:01
having the right jobs, having real jobs, jobs that pay properly, that's a poverty
45:07
reduction And we got a problem, like we got a big problem where we're underpaying
45:11
people where there's too much gig work.
45:13
There's like, there is a lot of problems, systemic problems in, in our
45:17
labour force that should be solved.
45:20
That's different than food, right?
45:22
Like, nobody's gonna say you should gimme a free car.
45:25
Well, your luck, like why someone built the car, someone made the
45:28
parts, someone you know like.
45:30
So when you're looking inside of the system, I agree food should be food.
45:34
Food should be free to people that can't afford it, and we should give
45:37
it to them in a way that they can access it so they're not stigmatised.
45:40
But that doesn't mean someone's not paying.
45:42
It just means that individual's not paying, that family's not paying and good.
45:45
Excellent until we can get them place where they've got the jobs, uh,
45:49
or the resources available to them that they can go grocery shopping.
45:52
Nobody wants to access free food unless you're at a, unless it's
45:55
like it's a festival or party or church or whatever, but nobody's.
45:59
Yeah, I wanna go get this
46:00
Jesse Hirsh: See, I, I, I gotta disagree with that point.
46:03
Lori Nikkel: you know, put my hand
46:04
Jesse Hirsh: I, I, I agree with everything you're saying about the need for labour
46:07
to be valued, but I genuinely believe, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence
46:14
on social media to support this, that people love to get food for free.
46:17
It, it is, uh, a dopamine hit.
46:19
But I agree entirely with your argument, but allow me to throw you the.
46:25
Lori Nikkel: Okay.
46:25
Her research you just said, her research is social media, so I already don't take
46:30
Jesse Hirsh: That, but that's, that's where, but that's where, uh,
46:34
you, as a leader in the centre take a completely different position as
46:39
me, an outcast on the periphery, and that is a fair difference.
46:43
But allow me to throw a curve ball.
46:46
How does the food waste sector or the waste diversion sector.
46:53
Address the issue of volunteer labour because I agree with you all.
46:58
Labour should be compensated, people should have well paying jobs.
47:03
But there is a lot of volunteer labour required to deal with the
47:09
sector as it's currently configured.
47:12
Granted, you've really inspired me today with the possibility of a food
47:16
waste national strategy, and the way in which it could really change the
47:21
way we approach the current situation.
47:25
But it strikes me when I've looked at my local, uh, food, uh, justice
47:29
food security organisations, their primary pain point is volunteer labour.
47:35
How do we address that?
47:37
Lori Nikkel: Uh, I agree with you a hundred percent.
47:39
I. I, I don't, I, I don't have volunteers.
47:45
If I have a job that requires a full-time person, I hire the
47:48
person to pay them properly.
47:50
I agree with you a hundred percent.
47:52
Nobody should be doing things for free and accept when they want to.
47:57
Jesse Hirsh: Mother,
47:58
Lori Nikkel: I'm
47:58
Jesse Hirsh: that
47:59
Lori Nikkel: and I wanna get out in the community, and I, I
48:01
have the wherewithal to do that.
48:04
A hundred percent.
48:04
It's your
48:05
Jesse Hirsh: investigation.
48:05
Lori Nikkel: do what you want with it.
48:06
Where I draw the line is when someone is low income and they go into a place
48:11
and they might get some free food and that's why they're volunteering.
48:14
I really have a problem with that because if you can't afford to pay people to do
48:18
the work, you wouldn't expect to go to
48:19
Jesse Hirsh: Seven.
48:20
Lori Nikkel: and not have staff paid or else.
48:23
So I. I fundamentally have a problem with volunteer labour as a core.
48:28
That is a whole industry problem in this industry, but it's
48:31
not actually the industry.
48:32
It's an industry problem, but it's a perception problem everybody
48:37
that thinks, well, if they work in charity, they shouldn't get paid.
48:41
Why is it more important to build a part than it is to feed somebody?
48:45
That's a, a, an outrageous mindset.
48:47
So that's something, you know, we're gonna take years to, uh,
48:50
systematically break out of their brains.
48:53
No people in charity.
48:54
This is like one of the most important jobs.
48:57
This is the people that we're hiring.
48:59
We are competing with corporations and private sector to get the best
49:03
because you want the best people.
49:05
So you can innovate, you can scale, you can do all the great
49:10
things that industry does.
49:11
So why would you expect volunteers to have the capacity?
49:16
Interest even?
49:17
Why would you not pay for that
49:19
Jesse Hirsh: And I,
49:21
Lori Nikkel: So I, I agree with you, Jesse.
49:22
I, I fundamentally disagree with volunteer labour as a backbone of
49:27
Jesse Hirsh: while I, I can acknowledge that it will take a long time to
49:31
kind of shift that psychology, any short term solutions, suggestions,
49:37
uh, other than leading by example, which I suspect you're already doing.
49:42
Lori Nikkel: Yeah.
49:42
Uh, think.
49:44
Part of the problem is actually within the organisations themselves, where
49:48
they, I don't know why, but I've, and I've worked with people that
49:51
they don't pay themselves properly.
49:53
And I'm like, well, you, if you don't pay yourself properly, if
49:56
you don't value yourself enough, then that's gonna trickle down.
50:00
Like you've got to, if you don't have the resources to do the job, then
50:05
maybe you don't need to be in business.
50:06
Right?
50:07
Like, need the people to do the job.
50:09
So just a lot of people with great ideas and they mean well, and it's fantastic.
50:12
But I'm also, there's a lot of.
50:14
Duplication too.
50:15
I'm like, well, look what's happening over here.
50:18
Why don't you connect with them?
50:19
But yeah, I know it is the best idea you've ever had, except for these guys
50:22
had it 30 years ago, so let's like that.
50:24
I think there's a disconnect often in terms of really wonderfully minded
50:30
people that really wanna do the right thing, but don't actually look deep
50:35
enough into see, I fixing a problem and is there somebody already doing it?
50:39
Can I just attach myself to this versus starting something new.
50:44
There's a bit of work to be done, but again, it all comes
50:46
back to like, value yourself.
50:48
Everybody.
50:48
You guys are awesome.
50:49
We're all awesome.
50:51
And there's not enough jobs like the labour and unemployment is going
50:55
up, even though immigration and, and population is going down, like there's
50:58
something wrong with our system.
51:01
And so until we fix that, and that's a big fix, and I, I'm not
51:06
leading that fix, I, that's huge.
51:08
Uh, we're still gonna have this unfortunate disconnect.
51:12
Jesse Hirsh: to give you credit, I do kind of think you alluded to the fix.
51:15
You're not in a position to apply the fix, but you alluded to the fix in the sense
51:20
that we should be paying people more.
51:21
Like, I think part of the reason why a law.
51:23
Of jobs are not filled, is they're not offering a high enough wage to
51:27
motivate people to apply for it.
51:29
Um, we're we're just about outta time.
51:32
The, the two
51:34
Lori Nikkel: Yeah, maybe except for unemploy.
51:37
Jesse Hirsh: No, go ahead.
51:38
Lori Nikkel: Sorry, like, you're right, we need to pay people more.
51:42
But they're taking the jobs because they have no choice.
51:45
then they're stuck in this system of, I can't pay my rent and feed my kids
51:49
because there's, they're stuck in this place where we don't pay people properly.
51:53
That's not true for everybody, there is a great deal of labour that is happening.
51:58
Very undervalued.
51:59
Very
51:59
Jesse Hirsh: And to your point.
52:01
Lori Nikkel: Sorry.
52:01
I'll let you end, Jesse.
52:02
I, I could go
52:03
Jesse Hirsh: Uh, uh, look, uh, I'm temping to take you up on that offer.
52:06
My, my brain is still going nuts.
52:08
And to your point, I think there are some AI developers who are being paid too much,
52:13
uh, in terms of the larger, uh, market.
52:15
I'm digressing.
52:17
The, the second last question I ask every guest, is there anything
52:20
that we haven't touched upon today that, uh, in our final moments you
52:24
really think we should mention?
52:25
Or, or, or, or, or get to?
52:28
Lori Nikkel: The first step is the best step.
52:29
So see what you can do.
52:30
I, for me, it's about food waste.
52:32
So look in your fridge, understand your best before dates, and then share that
52:36
information with your friends and family.
52:37
So go to the Second Harvest website.
52:39
We have best before dates when your food is actually good too.
52:42
If you're donating food as an industry.
52:46
here.
52:46
And if you are an industry, if there's a lot of industry listening, please donate
52:50
your surplus food to Second Harvest.
52:52
We'll train you, we'll take it.
52:53
We'll give you a tax receipt.
52:54
Sometimes we'll give you data like we are your best spot to make sure
52:59
your food gets into the mouths of
53:00
Jesse Hirsh: And let me uh, reiterate that by saying the infrastructure
53:04
that you guys are creating is absolutely unbelievable and invaluable.
53:09
And, and I think the private sector benefits tremendously, uh, from
53:13
both its existence and the kind of research and intelligence you guys,
53:17
uh, have developed and are develop.
53:19
Our last question is the shout out, uh, phase of our game show.
53:24
Uh, is there any other leaders, uh, that you think we should be paying
53:28
attention to that you wanna shout out?
53:30
It's meant to be kind of spontaneous.
53:32
I'm trying to catch people by surprise, but when I say
53:36
leader, who do you think of?
53:38
Who's the folks that inspire you, that you think the rest of us, uh,
53:41
uh, uh, should be following as well?
53:44
Lori Nikkel: I think one of the leaders for sure and for me has
53:46
always been Catherine Parsonage.
53:48
She is the CEO of Toronto Foundation for Student Success, and she has been working
53:52
on child nutrition for her whole career.
53:54
And because of her, not just her, obviously, we have finally gotten a
54:00
federal national student nutrition programme and she's very innovative.
54:03
She's.
54:04
Very passionate.
54:05
Um, and I like when I was young, she was someone that really inspired me.
54:10
I'm like, you can do anything.
54:11
You can do anything.
54:12
We can all do anything.
54:14
And so she's the one I like the most.
54:16
I shouldn't say like the most, but she's inspired me my whole life.
54:18
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
54:18
Right on.
54:19
Well, thank you Lori.
54:20
Uh, this has been for me mind blowing.
54:23
I, I know I'm gonna probably spend the rest of the day trying to process some
54:27
of the dots that you've connected and try to grasp a, a sense of our food system.
54:33
That, that you see with a really inspiring sense of courage.
54:37
'cause on the one hand, you acknowledge that there are some issues out there,
54:42
but on the other hand, you see a path to a, a, a much healthier future.
54:47
So, uh, welcome to the Future Herd.
54:49
We're definitely gonna have you back and, uh, thanks again
54:52
for all the work that you do.
54:55
Lori Nikkel: Thanks for having me.
54:56
Hey man, I'll be back anytime.
54:57
Uh, I love talking about this, as you can tell.
55:02
Jesse Hirsh: This was another one of those episodes where my mind just
55:05
kept being blown the entire time.
55:08
It's not just trying to understand or grasp the scale of the food waste that we
55:14
deal with, but also the sheer challenge of eating all the cucumbers that Lori
55:20
cited, or dealing or thinking about the psychology of eaters as to what
55:25
we choose and whether it's in season.
55:29
Let alone what I'm really left with, uh, which is the research
55:33
and intelligence capabilities that Second Harvest has developed.
55:37
And I say this in part because, uh, AI research is something that's a passion
55:43
of mine, something that we have and we'll talk about in episodes to come.
55:49
But where we started this episode is kind of where we're ending this episode,
55:54
which is the privileged perspective of the leader that I think often leaders
56:00
take for granted that what they see is special, that not everyone is able
56:05
to see what they see, and that vision comes with a kind of responsibility.
56:11
A responsibility, not just for leadership, but to address the kind of problems
56:16
that are only visible when you're in that position, when you have the
56:21
privilege to look, to think and to act.
56:25
And that's where Lori, I think, really inspires not just a
56:29
reassessment of food waste, but a reassessment of food security.
56:33
And this will be a focus, uh, I think for our sector, certainly
56:37
for this podcast moving forward.
56:40
And that's where, again, I remind all of you to check out Commons
56:44
dot, the future heard.ca to share your perspective on food security.
56:51
I kind of selfishly use this episode myself as a kind of research,
56:56
uh, uh, regular listeners know.
56:59
That I live to learn.
57:01
And part of the purpose of this podcast for me is to continue my uh, uh, steep
57:08
learning curve within the AgriFood sector.
57:12
But there are a lot of questions that Lori raised that I'm gonna pose to
57:17
future guests so that we are able to perhaps get a very unique perspective,
57:22
not just on food security, but more importantly on food infrastructure.
57:27
'cause that's the takeaway that I have from today's episode.
57:31
That we take for granted the infrastructure that delivers
57:35
food from farm to plate, and maybe it should be open source.
57:40
Maybe it should be more transparent.
57:42
Maybe it should be something that I don't know.
57:45
You could go on a website and zoom in and zoom out and look at all the connections.
57:49
I mean, shout out to Dana McCauley and Fin 'cause they're
57:53
kind of working on those tools.
57:56
I'm thinking out loud.
57:58
Until next time, thanks for tuning into the Future Herd.
58:02
Uh, we'll hope to hear you or see you soon.