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Q&A · Formed

0:09
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Formed.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast produced, I don't know if that's the right word, put together or an idea of the town church in order for us to engage in some conversation about what it means to be formed in a Christian way.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: And it's such a huge topic.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: So half the episodes we're looking at corporate worship in particular and taking some elements of that.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And the other half we're looking at questions and topics that are sent in from our church body.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: So this week we're looking at some more questions and topics that were sent in.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And for this week, there's not a single theme for these three questions.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: There's some overlap, but they're also a bit different.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: So I don't have a theme to tell you, to give you, but man, all three of these questions are really great.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: I invited on with me our special guest, Ellie Johnson, who is the director of um our women ministry here at the town church.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: And a couple of these questions hit on some seasons of like young mother seasons, which Ellie can relate to really well, as well as women in ministry.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: So I that's why I invited you on, Ellie.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: I think you're not only thoughtful, but you've got some experience, and I'd love to hear some of your thoughts here.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: But before we get to the questions in particular, could you just share maybe a bit about your own faith journey?
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Like what was it like in your relationship with the church and and where you are now?
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Whatever you choose to share is great.
1:29
SPEAKER_03: Great.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks, Eric.
1:31
SPEAKER_03: It's good to be here.
1:32
SPEAKER_03: You're welcome.
1:34
SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I grew up, you know, for a long time I always thought I didn't have a testimony because there's not a time in my life where I um remember not at least having knowledge of who God was or feeling like there was some sort of relationship.
1:50
SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, looking back, I grew up in a Christian home.
1:56
SPEAKER_03: My parents were both newer believers.
1:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, I didn't remember that part.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: Raising us.
2:01
SPEAKER_03: So my mom grew up um in the Catholic Church and really didn't find a saving faith with Jesus until college.
2:08
SPEAKER_03: Um, and my dad um had uh kind of a troubled childhood, um, abusive alcoholic dad.
2:16
SPEAKER_03: And so he came to the Lord um in college as well.
2:20
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so they were kind of paving this new path for us in a lot of ways, and um, my dad specifically breaking some um, you know, cycles of family um stuff.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: So um I feel really grateful um for the way that we were raised.
2:38
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I think I had some skewed theology a little bit too, and not, you know, my parents' faults at all, but just grew up really um I'm I'm the oldest and the oldest daughter and I am too.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: That brings some things with it.
2:53
SPEAKER_03: That brings some things, and so I think I just really wanted to please my parents, and I think that um, you know, went to God too.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: Like I think I really wanted to please him, um, which of is not bad in and of itself, but really um I was uh I was a legalistic.
3:14
SPEAKER_03: I think I was pretty puffed up for a lot of my like middle school, high school years, kind of separating myself from um, you know, sinners because I was I was a giddy two shoes and I always made the right choices, and um and so truly what that turned into was some broken relationships.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: Maybe not that even that I was aware of, but I was really isolating myself and thinking that I was living, you know, perfectly for the Lord, and um, there just wasn't a lot of humility there.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: And so then when I left for college, I were I uh my faith I think turned a corner.
3:54
SPEAKER_03: I think I started to know the word uh deeper, and the Holy Spirit just really started to soften my heart.
4:00
SPEAKER_03: And there was one summer that I was a camp counselor at a Christian camp, and as we were preparing for our kids to come, um, we were reading through Romans, and there's a verse in Romans that says, No one is righteous, no not one.
4:14
SPEAKER_03: And the Holy Spirit really kind of stuck that in my heart and said, No, Ellie, you're not even righteous.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so that was a big turning point for me.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: Um, and since then it's been this journey, um, I think of freedom with God, um recognizing um how loved I am, also recognizing that um I'm in deep need of Jesus every day.
4:39
SPEAKER_03: And so um that's a little bit of my past, but um yeah, I'm grateful for both the church and the parents and the knowledge that I grew up with, and I'm really grateful for the Holy Spirit to kind of um transform that and transform my heart, which is always necessary.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Man, yeah, yeah.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank thanks for sharing that.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy that you're a part of this church, Ellie, and you're on staff and you're joining me for this podcast.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Here's the first question.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: I I know I know you've got experience here.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Here's the first question.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Would love to hear about spiritual formation related to Sabbath rhythms, especially in all different seasons, but particularly with little kids.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: So I want to hear about your experience, but before we do that, just really high level.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's probably a lot of us who are unfamiliar with Sabbath or haven't engaged in Sabbath activities in the past.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: And so just from that really high level, Sabbath is a rhythm that um that Israel had, actually, God gave Israel to teach them many things.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: But some of the things I think are most helpful for us to engage in that today, that we're taught is one that we have limits.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: So Sabbath, we try to refrain from paid and unpaid work.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: You you stop, you have limits, you can't just continue to push forward and produce, produce, produce.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: That's that's a gift.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: You have limits.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: It teaches us that we're that we are receivers.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, so one beautiful way to approach Sabbath is how can I receive God's good gifts today?
6:09
SPEAKER_00: What are those things I just get to enjoy rather than produce, produce, produce either for God or for a paycheck or for my family or something like that?
6:18
SPEAKER_00: It's a totally, it's a totally different posture than I think we often fall into during the week, but Sabbath is for that.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: We are receivers.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Sabbath emphasizes our trust that God's actually sovereign and is in control of the world and the world will still spin if we're not working that one day a week.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Sabbath is also deeply humanizing.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Um it teaches that we're not God, that we're dependent creatures that um get or receive from his goodness, and he actually is the one that is doing everything around us.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: So big level Sabbath is a gift that we get to engage in.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't add to our salvation, it doesn't increase God's pleasure or his love for us, but it's a gift that he's given us that I think shapes us in some really, really good ways.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, but a challenge is to try to create a day for Sabbath that isn't stifled by all the rules and all like the don'ts and that sort of thing.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: So, Ellie, I just want to hear from you.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, what has been your experience with Sabbath?
7:16
SPEAKER_00: And you're in a season where you have younger kids too.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: So, what are some of the challenges that you found and how do you navigate some of that?
7:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, I think in a lot of ways, um, our family is still learning about Sabbath.
7:30
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's kind of we're progressing in it.
7:33
SPEAKER_03: You know, our kids are 10, 8, and 6 now.
7:37
SPEAKER_03: And I think we really started trying to be mindful um and practice the Sabbath um well.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe four or five years ago is when we kind of started.
7:48
SPEAKER_03: And so our kids were younger then.
7:51
SPEAKER_03: Um and I think the first thing, and you already spoke to this, Eric, was there is not an expectation that our practice of the Sabbath is perfect, especially I think when we have small kids, you know, and and I think a hindrance for me when I was um a mom of of really little kids is like, how do I stop and rest in this season?
8:16
SPEAKER_03: Because there's always somebody to feed, some diaper to change, somebody's crying or throwing a tantrum.
8:24
SPEAKER_03: So what is what does this even look like?
8:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think learning um that it's not gonna be perfect, but what does rest, and then um the word delight really changed it for me.
8:37
SPEAKER_03: What is rest and delighting in God's gifts in your particular season look like?
8:42
SPEAKER_03: And it's gonna be different in different seasons.
8:45
SPEAKER_03: I think um, you know, I think we we maybe began saying, like, okay, Sabbath is no technology and everybody's gotta take a nap.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, there's it's just gonna be all these don'ts and um almost felt like a failure if we didn't get that.
9:02
SPEAKER_03: But instead it was like, well, no, a family movie night can be delightful, or maybe we're um playing a game, or maybe we're just putting our phones away and enjoying outside together.
9:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, and your kids are still gonna tantrum and they're still gonna cry, but um even just like shifting, like for Zach and I, my husband and I, even just shifting our focus to um enjoying the good gift that is our kids, which is hard some days, you know?
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Um so I think it you know, it's like like that.
9:34
SPEAKER_03: I think something that I've really learned too is think about like what is um what is the work that does not feel life-giving to you on a Sabbath.
9:45
SPEAKER_03: Like for me, I I enjoy cooking mostly.
9:47
SPEAKER_03: I do most of the cooking at home, but on a Sabbath, I don't really want to spend a lot of time in the kitchen.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: And so what that looks like is oftentimes, and we often will practice Sabbath on a Sunday, um, prepping the days before to either have food available in the fridge or a lot of our Sundays look like popcorn and smoothies.
10:08
SPEAKER_03: And just like um it's kind of celebrating that too.
10:12
SPEAKER_03: Like what what is the work that I need to rest from?
10:15
SPEAKER_03: And I can do that no matter how old my kids are.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: Are there other practical things you put in place, Ellie, that help you in your stage of life celebrate the Sabbath?
10:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I think it's a it is a little preparation, I think.
10:35
SPEAKER_03: You know, so if there are things that you want to get done on the weekend to to honor the Sabbath and and keep it, um I don't wan you know, we're not gonna be doing those house projects during that time.
10:49
SPEAKER_03: And so to set that side a time is sometimes set that time aside is sometimes hard, but that might be like what is your Friday, Saturday, the week before look like.
10:58
SPEAKER_03: Um I think we um as a family have invested in uh getting together with other families for Sabbath.
11:09
SPEAKER_03: Um putting those things on the calendar, we have a really close group of friends and they all live in Denver, so we try once a month to just do a Sabbath dinner together, and those get put on the calendar early on so that we can anticipate it.
11:21
SPEAKER_03: And those have grown and evolved um over time, but it often looks like um spending some time in worship together.
11:29
SPEAKER_03: As kids get old enough to read, they can be part of like a Sabbath reading and then just sharing a meal together in community.
11:36
SPEAKER_03: Um so I think just prioritizing the time is probably one of the hardest parts of that rhythm.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it brings up the kind of the question of how do you define success, so to speak, on Sabbath.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Like if I have really young kids, um, and my definition of success is me alone with a book the entire day, like that's just not gonna happen.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: And so I to your point, I think there is a ton of grace that your Sabbath is going to look different depending on different seasons of life that you're in, and that that's okay.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: You might have to get a little creative, and it may not always be the ideal Sabbath that you have in your mind if it was just you living alone, or just you and your spouse if you're married.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I guess I guess my encouragement is to hesitate around having an expectation that Sabbath has to look a certain way in order to define it as success.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Um we as a family we didn't start to try to engage with Sabbath until just a few years ago.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: So my kids are older, so we'd never try to do it when my kids are really young.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, I wish I had, but we didn't.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: So it looks a little different for us.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: But even then, each week it looks a little bit different week to week to week, depending on what's going on.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Um and that's okay.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh the the big idea is that again, we're receivers, we're enjoying God's good gifts, we're not plowing through the day like it's every other day.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh and that is good.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh deeply good.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: So there is some intentionality.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Something we found helpful for with my family was having a little bit older kids, is we we try to ask our kids, like, what do you want to do this Sabbath that you would just love to do to enjoy God's good gifts?
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then at the end of the day, I try to always ask the question, what good gift did you enjoy from God today on Sabbath?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: So it gives us something to look forward to and anticipate as well as reflect back on and make sure we're always making these connections of that good thing that you got that you received that you enjoyed, that was from your good father who loves you.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: It reinforces that over and over and over again.
13:40
SPEAKER_03: That's really good.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like that's very doable with little kids too.
13:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, I think like even just the rhythm of Sabbath and even naming it, even like speaking to it, is really helpful for little kids because then as they get older, like it doesn't have to be this elaborate theological teaching to your kids every Sunday, but the rhythm of it, just like we come to church on Sunday mornings and we value that corporate worship time, I feel like Sabbath is the same where even just speaking to it with your when your kids are little is hugely valuable and will evolve and grow.
14:17
SPEAKER_03: And that, you know, that question that you ask your big kids can easily be asked to your little kids too, right?
14:22
SPEAKER_03: Like, what good gifts did you enjoy today?
14:25
SPEAKER_03: And all good gifts are from God, and that's really good teaching, right there.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, for Israel, Sabbath is a 24-hour period.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Um and it was on Saturdays.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: We have some flexibility there.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of people take it on Sundays.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: I try to take hours on Saturday.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Sunday is a work day for me.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, but even for those who are just kind of starting, or 24 hours feels really overwhelming.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Maybe start with just like a morning or a half a day or something and grow into that and see where God might take that later.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Like we can get creative with this as we try to enjoy this rhythm on a regular basis.
15:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: So that was a great question.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, hopefully we did it some justice.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Here is the next question.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Hot button topic women in ministry.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: We hear a lot about women, what women can't do in the church, but what about all the things women can do?
15:20
SPEAKER_00: And how is the town creating avenues for women to use those gifts in the church?
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Um so let me let me just start here with a little bit of context for maybe some folks who aren't super familiar with this question of why it's a hot button topic.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, within uh Christendom, within Protestantism, different churches land different places on this.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, within complementarian churches, which where we fall in, we see that men and women that their roles complement each other and that their roles aren't identical.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: But within complementarianism, there's a whole spectrum of where you fall on that and how that gets expressed in your theology and also in your practice.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And usually it's it's in practice.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: On one end of the spectrum, um some churches will uh restrict women to you get to serve in children's ministry, and that's about it.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: And then on the other spectrum, um, the line is drawn primarily, if not exclusively, around we see that God, through the letters of Paul, calls um elders and pastors to qualified men only, and that that office is open to men.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: We as a church align more on that end of the spectrum where we're gonna draw the line of what we think.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Paul clearly said that the role and office of elder is for qualified men.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Now, that means that outside of that, women are encouraged to use gifts, skills, abilities like leadership in teaching within lots of contexts of the church while keeping that line where it is.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: One way to think about it is uh elders who are uh pastors, shepherds, that's the role of the elder.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: They carry a certain spiritual weight, a certain spiritual authority that is reserved for that office.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean that women can't lead or teach in ways that still keeps that unique spiritual authority within the role of elder.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Um I think there's a lot of creative ways to do that.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: And I will say that I think a weakness of the church, especially complementarian churches, has been exactly what this question is getting at.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: We hear what we can't do as a woman, but we don't see a whole lot of encouragement about the things that we that we can do and to flourish within the church.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Because theologically, like the church body needs women operating in their gifts and their skills and abilities and talents, just like we see men.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: And if a church is only equipping and calling men forth, there is some unhealth there.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and in some senses, uh is it will be limping along a little bit, won't be the full expression of how God designed the church.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: So this is a great question.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: That was just a really quick overview about what complementarianism is.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you, Ellie, in your perspective.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: You are on staff of the church, you're working in the church, you care for a lot of women, and you've seen this play out not only in the town church, but in other churches you've been a part of too.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts to this question?
18:39
SPEAKER_03: Um I think exactly what you're saying, Eric, when it's I I think men and women when they're functioning in their roles that God's equipped them for, the church flourishes.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:54
SPEAKER_03: I think there's always probably um ways that that is not happening and ways that it is in a church, and there's always room to grow, and there's um and I think we see some churches you know going too far one way or so it can be confusing, but there's ditches on both sides.
19:15
SPEAKER_03: There's ditches on both sides, yeah.
19:17
SPEAKER_03: Um but I think like biblically when we look at the Bible, the you know, from creation through the end, it's like um men and women were created to complement each other.
19:30
SPEAKER_03: They're created to be in partnership in ministry.
19:35
SPEAKER_03: And I think the relationship that we see so clearly is that of brothers and sisters um functioning um in in important roles that are not equally, you know, or like interchangeable maybe, um, but both really needed and and beautiful.
19:54
SPEAKER_03: Um and so I think when it's done well, it's awesome.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Have you seen it get done really, really well?
20:03
SPEAKER_03: That's a good question.
20:06
SPEAKER_03: Um yes, I think.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't think that I think the town is doing it well.
20:12
SPEAKER_03: I think that there's room for more women to step into leadership roles, and that's something that's on my heart for sure.
20:18
SPEAKER_03: Um I think I've been in maybe parachurch ministries that do it pretty well.
20:24
SPEAKER_03: Um but that takes some of the nuance of Pastor Elder away, right?
20:30
SPEAKER_03: So that's different.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: For me, in my experience, this has always been a a tricky isn't the right word.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I have seen it robustly done well, where there's clear, good and right expectations and encouragements and equipping across the board uh that removes some of that gray awkwardness.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Am I really valued?
20:57
SPEAKER_00: Am I not?
20:57
SPEAKER_00: Space?
20:58
SPEAKER_00: That seemed like that exists so often, at least especially within complementarian churches.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I've ever seen it robustly done well.
21:05
SPEAKER_03: What would that look like?
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Man, yeah.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I suspect at least a part of it is to be really, really clear about all the things that we desire and encourage and equip women in particular to be a part of and to lead and to teach within the within the local church.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Cause that seems to be the the sticking point, especially when it comes to leadership and teaching.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: And like this awkward dance that some people are like, I just don't know.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Let's just leave it alone.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: I think some clarity around that would certainly help.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: But then it can't just be words and clarity, like adding some sort of equipping or some sort of like proactive um invites into some of those spaces as well.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: I think we've done a little bit of that in the past as the town church.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: But to your point, I think there's there's a lot more that we could develop um and I'd love to see developed over time um as well.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, what are some things that that you currently see, Ellie, within the town church that is maybe doing some of these things that you see women exercising their gifts within?
22:18
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think I've said this.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: If you've heard me talk at all in the last year that I've been in this role, I just will say this over and over um forever that we have incredible women in our church who are gifted in so many different ways, um, who are using their gifts.
22:35
SPEAKER_03: You know, I think I see it um I actually think a really beautiful way that this that we see this is in townships, probably.
22:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, I think um it's a cool way to partner um in leadership in a township, but I have women leading small groups, um, Bible studies um really well.
22:55
SPEAKER_03: They're they these are women who know and love the word of God and are um inviting and equipping other women into that, asking hard questions.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: Um you know, we have women discipling um other women, we have I don't know, I see older women discipling younger women, I see younger women discipling peers and even younger women, I see our youth leaders investing in um in the youth of our church, and the female part of that is really important.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: Um Yeah, I I d women are are are very involved in the town church, and I think it's really cool to see.
23:40
SPEAKER_03: I know there's we have really gifted teachers, like we've got teachers who are gonna um speak at our retreat.
23:47
SPEAKER_03: Um and so it's happening.
23:52
SPEAKER_03: I'm curious what um like what do you think women teaching beyond just women's ministry looks like?
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think one example is like our fall symposium, for example, coming up.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have a number of female teachers, women who are really thoughtful and know the content really well, providing that content at a symposium.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: So those sorts of settings I think is beautiful in a teaching sense also.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, we have panel discussions that we're really intentional to have male and female perspectives on.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Um as a staff, we have many women in different roles that I mean there there's some weight there in the work that women are doing.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I even think about like podcasts like this or our other podcasts the afterward.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: We try to be intentional with involving women voices there because we need it.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: It's a different perspective that's needed than what the typical male perspective is.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: But even zooming out a little bit with like an official office, so to speak, of the church of deacons.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: We have male and female deacons, and and that's needed there.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and in so in so many ways.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: So it is happening um and is happening even more broadly than that.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Even with that being said, I think we can continue to grow that way.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's some intention uh behind it that I anticipate only continue to grow in some really beautiful ways to contribute to the building up of this body and the flourishing of both men and the women of this church.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Any other thoughts on that one, Ellie?
25:25
SPEAKER_03: No, I think I'm excited for what God has.
25:27
SPEAKER_03: I think He's leading us in to grow in this direction.
25:30
SPEAKER_03: And um and I have been encouraged just even joining the staff that feel very um yeah, encouraged and seen, and the women are valued and honored here.
25:43
SPEAKER_03: And so we want to just continue to to grow in that way.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, here's a third question.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, these are all such good questions, including this one.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: This is a longer question, so I'll read the whole thing and then we'll kind of break it off into parts and address it that way.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Here's the question.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Is it about what I do, who I am, or both?
26:06
SPEAKER_00: I've been struggling with this question since becoming a believer, having ups and downs.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Does God's love for me fluctuate based on who I am, my character, what I do, my actions, or both.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: This struggle comes from recognizing that I cannot earn God's love yet, also reading that based on my actions, what I do, that I'm either blessed, cursed, near to God, disciplined, etc.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: At the same time, I can recognize my lens through which I perceive God.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Parental love dependent on what I did, not who I was.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm viewing my relationship with God the same way.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: In researching my own question, I'd reached out to a mentor of mine.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: They wrote, God loves me for who I can be in Him, not how others perceive me or how I falsely perceive myself.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Is it really that simple?
26:53
SPEAKER_00: And if so, are doing in character formation all part of expressing who I can be in Christ?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Um So I'd like to address this question in parts.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Here's the first part I'd like to talk about.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Um does God's love for me fluctuate based on who I am, what I do, or both?
27:17
SPEAKER_00: Um biblically, theologically, God's love doesn't fluctuate for you, period.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Ever.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Um at the moment that Christ made you alive, that you became a Christian, you became fully united to Jesus, you became fully a son or daughter.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: You can't be more of a son or daughter.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: You're in the family, you can't become more in the family.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Um one of the one of my favorite expressions that we see over and over in the New Testament about what happens there is that God adopts you.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: You can't become more adopted.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you are fully adopted.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: You went from death to life, you now receive God's good pleasure because he this is what blows my mind.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: He now treats you and loves you as he loves his own son, Jesus.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Insane.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: That's part of what it means to be in Jesus.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that love, just like it never fluctuates from the father to the son, never fluctuates from the father to us.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: God simply, out of his good pleasure, chose to love us.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Unreal.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: You could look at like 2 Corinthians 5 or Galatians 3, Ephesians 1 or 2, Romans 8, Galatians 4, John 15, John 17, and on and on and on.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, so maybe reading through some of those texts with this sort of lens, like God, show me, show me how you view me, who I am now, that I am a Christian and your love for me, I think will be really, really enlightening.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: Um as far as uh the feeling that um that based on what we do, we're either blessed or cursed, near to God or far from God, disciplined, um biblically as a Christian, you're never cursed.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: You're never you're never punished.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: That word wasn't used, but you're never punished.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Rather, everything in how God relates to us is somehow an expression of his care and his love for us.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Even discipline is an expression of his love for us.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh, scripture's clear that that the father disciplines his kids because he loves them and it's it's good for us.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: And often that discipline helps us to move away from the things that are going to lead to death for us back to him who alone has life for us.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: So even that is an expression of love.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Nearness to God, though, is for the Christian a real thing that we can feel nearer to God or we can feel further away from God.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: That is a real experience that we have.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but that is different than to say that we are positionally nearer to God or further away from God.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: Remember, you are fully near to Christ, you are fully in the family, you positionally doesn't change.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: That is the objective reality.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Now we can experience nearness to God or further or farness.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's the word, farness, distance from God, that's the word.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes based on sin, like sin can create that gap.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely real.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: There's also times that God can withdraw this feeling of nearness to him, again, out of an expression of care for us, because he's wanting to show us maybe something in ourselves that we're not seeing, or grow or show us something about himself that withdrawing a felt sense of his presence is a way that he can do that.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: So even that can be an expression of his care for us.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Um one more thought here, Elliot.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: I want I want to hear what you may you know what you may be thinking about this.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: As we wrestle with is it who I am or what I do, big, big, big picture zoomed all the way out.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: I think you could make a strong argument that a hallmark of man-made religion is incorporating what we do as a necessary piece for our salvation or for God's love for us, or to try to keep God's love for us.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Christianity doesn't include that.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Um Protestantism does not include that where we actually have to wrestle with God's grace to being so sovereign and profound that it excludes our doing for God's pleasure and earning and earning his love.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: That's just his grace to us.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: That's hard.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it grates against everything inside of us because of the fall.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I get it.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: I I every other religion is going to include work to some to some degree.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, this this is a hard thing because it grates against what's inside of us.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: But what are your thoughts here, uh, Ellie, with love fluctuating for us or or uh this feeling of cursed or blessed based on what we do?
32:15
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think you spoke to it really well, Eric.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's just so hard for us to wrap our head around the love of a good and perfect father because we are so far from perfect and good.
32:27
SPEAKER_03: And even those of us who are parents and doing our very best to always, you know, do what's best and good for our kids, like we still are not, and our feelings I mean, in the perfect sense, like we we can get it in a way because no matter what our kids do, we still love them, and it is so much less still than how God the Father loves us and views us.
32:52
SPEAKER_03: Um I think I c I identify with this question, and I think based on a little bit of the story that I shared, just of my own faith journey.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: A lot of my early years as a believer, and I believe I was saved and I had given my life to Jesus, but I was still trying to do, and I was still trying to, I think, in a lot of ways, earn God's love.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I had a good, wise friend um a while back kind of ask me about that season of my own life.
33:27
SPEAKER_03: Um because I can look back and I can see God's grace has covered it and I can see how he's used it to to grow my understanding of him, my affection for him, and still I can look back and say, like, ugh, what a waste, right?
33:42
SPEAKER_03: Or like I I just got it so wrong.
33:45
SPEAKER_03: And she asked me the question, she said, Can you look back on that Ellie 20 years ago or however long, and believe that God still loved you just as much then and was just as pleased with you then as a believer of Jesus Christ, covered by his blood, as he is with you now.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: And I think that was such um a shift for me because maybe I knew that in my head, but was I really believing it?
34:13
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
34:14
SPEAKER_03: Like um, God's love is just so wild to think about, and it covers you know, Jesus' sacrifice covers um all of that, even when we're trying to do, and it's it's only because of Jesus that we receive that, and there's freedom in that.
34:35
SPEAKER_03: There's so much freedom in just receiving it.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know if I answered your question, but that just made me think um of how it's looked in my own life.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: So where where do works fall in then?
34:50
SPEAKER_00: If it's purely God's grace, He chose to love us, and that love for us doesn't fluctuate, but the Bible is still full of commands and certain ways to live.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: How how do we then make sense of that?
35:03
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you'll probably have better words for this than I do, but I think it's a beautiful response that we get to um obey, like because of his love for us, we then in turn get to respond to that love and grace.
35:22
SPEAKER_03: Because we we want uh to please God, but not that we have to, not that we feel like we must, but in in response for the gift that he's given us, I think.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean that's that's beautiful.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's unique about what the Bible says about God's relationship to his people.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: He's always prior, he always initiates and him making us his own is before anything that we could do, period.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: So then the lives that we live increasingly by God's grace become more aligned to what he desires for us, and the things that he desires for us that are actually for our good and brings him glory.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's all expressions of his care for us.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: So how we live absolutely matters, but it doesn't earn us anything, and nor can we lose anything based on how we live because of the unimaginable grace and love of God, which I can't wrap my mind around.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: But you're right, it's it's a response that's motivated out of a heart that is a growing love and affection and enjoyment of our good God.
36:30
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a it's the gift of the Spirit too that even allows us to want to obey, right?
36:36
SPEAKER_03: Like the spirit that is transforming our hearts and turning us away from sin and towards Christ, like is a constant part of our faith and sanctification.
36:47
SPEAKER_03: And so even us desiring to do, if you will, to obey God is his gift of the Spirit in itself, you know, and the fruits of the Spirit.
37:00
SPEAKER_03: And um that's wild.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: That's such good grace.
37:05
SPEAKER_03: Like that's such that's such a gift that um that the spirit is even working in us to to want to obey God now, right?
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, including confessing our sin as we continue to sin, all initiated by God's grace through his spirit.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really okay.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: So let's take uh next piece of this question.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Um this was a part of uh the mentor's response to this question.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: The mentor uh in part said that God loves this person for who they can be in him and not based on others or uh self for the basis of that love.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: I that's a beautiful emphasis upon God here rather than on others or self as the basis uh for his love for this individual.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: I think I would tweak it though just a little bit um to to emphasize that God loves you because he chose to love you, period.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Not because he saw in the future, and I'm not saying it's what this mentor is getting at, but I hear this sometimes.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Not based on what he saw you'd become in the future or what you would do in the future, or all the good things and thoughts and feelings that you would have in the future, that's not his basis of his love for you.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not the basis of why he chose you.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: He chose you because it gave him pleasure.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: He simply wanted to.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: I I don't fully understand that in the economy of God and how he sees everything, why he chose to save any of us, other than he wanted to, and it brings him pleasure and brings him glory.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think just being careful around the basis is still not something in you or what you will do, but it's still in within God himself.
38:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's something in that question that still um speaks a little bit to striving to me, where God loves me for who I can be in him.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: But no, it's God loves me for who I am in him.
39:00
SPEAKER_03: Like Christ has bought you once and for all, you know, and there's nothing again that the by the Spirit there's sanctification and we're you know, hopefully transforming into the image of him closer every day.
39:16
SPEAKER_03: But at the moment of confessing your sin and naming Jesus as the Lord of your life, you're in Christ, and there's no um can be, but there is I am in Christ and He loves me.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: A present reality that will always be a present reality.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Um and then there's this last part of this question I want to I want to touch on too.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Such a good question.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Um it's the let's see here.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: It's the last question.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Is it really that simple?
39:49
SPEAKER_00: And if so, are doing and character formation all part of expressing who I can be in Christ?
39:57
SPEAKER_00: Um before I provide any thoughts on that, Ellie, w do you have any thoughts on this question?
40:02
SPEAKER_00: A doing and character formation, those two things, a part of expressing who I can be in Christ.
40:10
SPEAKER_03: What are you doing?
40:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I still hear a little bit of striving or achieving in that question.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: Like trying to be who I can be, like almost like this thought of trying to be the best I can be for Jesus in Christ.
40:27
SPEAKER_03: And I don't I don't know if that's what they're getting at, but um you should talk and then let me think for a minute.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I think in a sense, yes, um that who you can be in Christ is someone whose life is marked by a love of God to a greater and greater degree as we continue to mature as Christians.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: And so if we think about it in that way, like Christ-likeness, sanctification, growing in holiness, who we can be, that is a part of expressing our the reality of being adopted as sons and daughters.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: So, in that sense, yes, I think I'd just be want to be careful of the emphasis again, that the emphasis isn't upon us needing to prove anything or earn or anything or to become something, right?
41:19
SPEAKER_00: That'd be the basis of God's love for us.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Um like work that we need to do being the basis for that, um, or or to keep us from losing something that God's given us, his love, his grace, salvation, that that sort of thing.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, but doing in character formation how we live is an outworking of that positional reality that we've already been given at conversion by God's grace.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: So, which is the emphasis is then always upon who God is and his work by his grace, and from that then flows how we live.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: And so I just want to be really and I'll I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I want to be really careful with that emphasis because there's so much beauty and truth, and the dominoes that fall from that um are like good and right.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: If we start to adjust that a little bit, those are different dominoes that fall.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: And then you get 50 dominoes down the road and it starts getting really weird.
42:18
SPEAKER_03: Right.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and a little bit twisted.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to be really careful at the very beginning.
42:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, it's it's like when we talk about reading the Bible and how we can very easily read the Bible to try to figure out more about us.
42:34
SPEAKER_03: And I wonder if that even relates to this question, like, who am I in Christ?
42:38
SPEAKER_03: And and those are good questions, are like, who am I?
42:40
SPEAKER_03: Like, what does the Bible say about me?
42:42
SPEAKER_03: When in truth, we the intent is that we read the Bible to learn who God is and what he says about himself, and in relation to that, then who are we?
42:51
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like Christian formation, character formation, all of it is the same in that are we focusing on who God is, and is our our desire by the spirit to know him more, to understand more of his character, which will transform us, or is it like, what am I doing?
43:09
SPEAKER_03: How can I be better?
43:11
SPEAKER_03: How can I grow closer?
43:12
SPEAKER_03: How like the what you just said, the focus has to shift.
43:15
SPEAKER_03: Like if our eyes are fixed on Jesus and that's why we're doing these things, that I feel like is obedience in the spirit.
43:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, but it can we can lose that focus pretty easily.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: So here's here's a statement.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: I want to see if you agree with this, Ellie.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Um I suspect I shouldn't say that.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: I pretty firmly believe.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: So if you disagree though, it's fine, it's fine.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm gonna that if if I care about how I'm gonna live, the decisions I make, how I use time and energy, growing in holiness, all of that, if that's really what I see, want to see affected, the number one thing that I get to do to see that affected is to grow in my love and knowledge of God.
43:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Rather Than putting most of my focus on the very things that I'm doing seems a little counterintuitive.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Like if I want to make some different decisions, it seems like I should be putting my focus on the decisions I'm making and strategize around that.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: Like there's some good there.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: But I think biblically, zoomed out again, that that actually is not the most productive, effective, best way of even how the human heart works.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Same thing with sin.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Like if I want to get, if I'm battling a particular sin in my life, the the I keep using the word effective.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's the best word.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Like the the deepest way to affect that isn't to focus then on that particular sin and all the strategies I'm gonna put in place to try to rid my life of that.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: The deepest way is to grow my love and affections for my good God that then pull me out of it because He comes becomes more beautiful and that sin gets more hollowed out and becomes less attractive.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: That isn't usually an overnight thing.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: It can be by God's grace.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, it's a question of where's my attention and my focus, which I think is so central to this entire question.
45:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's not what religion would say, right?
45:15
SPEAKER_03: Religion is about what we can do, but the gift of Jesus, the gift of grace, and to receive it um and to live in light of it is so different than religion.
45:28
SPEAKER_03: And I think that our human nature, again, wants we're prone to want to achieve and we're prone to have control, and we're prone to want to like be in control of it, be in control of how we're growing, how we're living, how we're pleasing God.
45:44
SPEAKER_03: And so it is counterintuitive then that like just by focusing on God that is the best path to what we desire.
45:54
SPEAKER_03: And the desires are good, but I think recognizing that God gives a beautiful gift to us and there's just I just feel freedom.
46:03
SPEAKER_03: Like I think there's just freedom in it that God has done it, that we are in Christ, and that because of that we get to continue with Him and grow closer to Him and all of these things that this question is saying, I think that there's probably a really beautiful desire in it to grow closer to God, to know more of Him, to please Him with the life that they're living.
46:28
SPEAKER_03: And those are really beautiful desires.
46:31
SPEAKER_03: And it's not about striving, it's about receiving the grace that God gives you and that concept of receiving circles us all the way back to Sabbath, doesn't it?
46:41
SPEAKER_00: Because Sabbath is a rhythm that we can put in place to remind us that we are receivers.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think it breaks something in us that needs to be broken.
46:51
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
46:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's hard to rest.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially for people like me and you and probably the majority of Americans.
47:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: People in the West.
47:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:04
SPEAKER_00: Ellie, thanks for joining me.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, truly, it was great for me to have you here and to talk about these things together.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate your thoughts.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: And I know you well enough.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: I think I can say this on your behalf.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: If anybody would like some time with Ellie and talk about any of this more, um, she's a great person to listen, ask good questions, and provide some thoughts.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: Ellie E-L-L-I-E attownchurch.org.
47:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:27
SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Eric.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, next week we are going to look at corporate worship again.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: And the slice that we're gonna um talk about is preaching.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: It's the place of the word.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: And so Vince will join me for that one.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: So hopefully you can make it.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: Bye.