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How One Tweak to the Internet Led This Guy to a BDSM Dungeon · Question Everything

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Many of you regular listeners know I've been arguing that
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: it's time to make changes to a law called Section 230.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: For the new initiates among you, Section 230 of the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Communications Decency Act of 1996 is the law that protects websites, apps,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: social media platforms from lawsuits over posts made by their users.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: It has shaped almost everything we experience on the internet,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: for better and for worse. Today on the show, a
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: cautionary tale about what can go wrong when you tinker
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: with this law. I think it's time to update Section
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: 230 for the powerful, algorithmic, and AI-driven internet of today
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: to strip back the immunity that the law currently gives
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to tech companies who can more or less do what
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: they want right now without the threat of being sued. Now,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: there is one time when Congress did this. In 2018,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: lawmakers rolled back a teeny bit of Section 230 They
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: did this with seemingly good intentions. They were trying to
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: stop websites from being used for terrible crimes. But that
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: ended up causing things to go bad in a different way.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: It hurt a group of people who are already in
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a risky line of work. People in the sex industry.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: This whole situation, it definitely gives me pause. I'll say
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: up front that it hasn't thrown me off my mission.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I still believe there's a way to reform Section 230
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: that can do more good than harm. But the story
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: of what happened when Congress did change the law slightly,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: you can't ignore it. And in fact, there's plenty to
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: learn from it, about how trying to plug one leak
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: on the internet can spring another. So today, we're going
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: to hear from someone who lived through those consequences, a
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: guy who was making a living on OnlyFans, whose life
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: got harder and more dangerous when Congress changed Section 230.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: At that moment when, like, the money plummeted, how did
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: it affect your life?
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Well, like, I guess urgency. It's like, what am I
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: going to do? I had to make hard decisions.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: From KCRW and Placement Theory, I'm Brian Reed. This is
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Question Everything. Stick around. This change in 2018 to Section 230.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: It just so happens my producer, Sam Egan, is close
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: with somebody whose life was turned upside down by it.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I'm Davin Addison. My stage name is Davin Strong.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Devin does porn, among other things, in adult entertainment, hence
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: the stage name. He's 30, an old wrestling teammate of
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: my producer Sam's from college in Wyoming, which is where
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Devin's from. The three of us got on a call
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: one Friday night recently.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: You're in Vegas now? What's that like? Oh, man. Vegas
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: is cool. It's more low-key than people like to imagine
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: it is. It's not anything crazy.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Although, last time I went, we ate $ 200 worth of
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: sushi between each, each probably.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Part of why I was eager to talk to Davin,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: he's just a regular guy whose life and livelihood got
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: upended by a policy change in D.C. that he didn't
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: even know about. Well, I guess a regular guy who's
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: six feet tall and 280 pounds with thighs the diameter
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: of telephone poles. Davin's ripped, covered head to foot in tattoos.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Not intimidating, though. In fact, he's kind of a softie.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Davin first tried sex work when he was a junior
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: in college. He was going through some pretty serious mental
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: health challenges and had quit the wrestling team, which had
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: been a huge part of his life. He's broke, was
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: never great at class, but where he excels is fitness.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: He loves working out.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I never really knew how I was going to move
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: through the world in any way that wasn't like something physically.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, so how can I still find a
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: way to like make money and move through the world
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: and do so in a way where I can like
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: still do things I enjoy, which is like be in shape,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: you know? So I was like, I'm going to go
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: be like a fitness model.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Devin shoots off some bodybuilding photos to a few magazines
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and they get back to him. He starts doing some
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: fitness shoots, gets hooked up with a modeling agent.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: He was like, yeah, you have to be around this campsite, a.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Cam site, not a campsite. Like where people pay to
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: watch models live online, flexing, doing other stuff.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, okay. Um, This seems better than making
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: minimum wage.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: And you were still in college at this point?
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I was in college, yep.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Living with our producer, Sam, and another guy.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: I remember really vividly you kind of half-joking about it
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: for a couple of weeks. For context, we lived in
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: this awful, disgusting apartment on South 11th.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Street in Laramie, Wyoming, on the literal edge of town.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Nothing there. It's like town, nothing. And he quit the team, and.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: For a couple of weeks, he'd been like, ah, I
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: don't know what I'm going to do.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: I think I, maybe I'll just like jerk off on
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: camera or something like that.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: It's like, what was I saying? That's funny. No, that's real.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: I remember when you finally were like, we were in
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: the middle of the living room.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: We're all playing battlefield.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: And damage just stands up and like stands in the
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: middle of the hallway.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: And there's a short hallway. And then it goes left
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: to his room and right to my room. He's quiet
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: for a minute.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: And then he just kind of looks at us and
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: we all stop. Cause he's like, stood up like he's
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: going to make an announcement. And he's like, all right,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do it. I'm going to go jerk
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: off on camera now.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: I'm doing it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: And then you went in your room.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: And that was it.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Wow. That was your first day at work.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: I guess so. Yeah, I guess so.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: He goes back for a second day at work, a third.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: People online seem to like Davin. He starts getting fans,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: particularly men. You're straight, gay.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Like, how do you identify?
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: For a long time, I identified as bi, and now
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: I'll joke and be like, I'm like spicy straight, or
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: I'll be like, you know, I'm just like, I'm just queer, like,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever. Just like, you know, generally prefer, have
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: a preference, like a heavy preference for women. Can't enjoy
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: men in certain contexts, and was very open-minded.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Devin had a tough upbringing, a lot in the shadow
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of his dad, a big, intense guy who was also abusive.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Devin always felt forced into a lot of limiting stereotypes.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: about what it means to be a man, how important
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: it was to prove that you were tough. His dad
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: was a Marine. Davin grew up wrestling. But the world
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: of wrestling, the whole macho scene he was in out West,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: it started to bother him.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: These systems that alienate men and teach men to be,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: you know, push their feelings down and teach men that
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: this is the only way to be a man. I
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: was just like, yeah, tired of getting beat up, you know,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: wrestling culture, just like cowboy.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Culture, Davin is in the middle of figuring out how
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: to make enough money to support himself in college when
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: something terrible happens. His dad, who had been facing charges
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: of sex crimes, is killed by police after he points
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: a rifle at them. Davin believes it was suicide by cop.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: It's all over the news.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: All that very much traumatized me.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, man.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, you know, many moons. But I was able to
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: quickly pinpoint, like, well, why is my dad dead? Like,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: why do I feel so lonely?
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Devin drops out of college. His mom has her own
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: struggles and isn't a big part of his life. He's
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: poor with nowhere to go home to. He's trying to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: land on what quote unquote normal career might be available
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: to a guy like him. But none of the paths
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: feel right.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I was like seeing people like, you know, join the
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: military or go be cops. And I was like, oh,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: I don't really fuck with that. Like, what can I?
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: These were the jobs that seemed available to you. As, like,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: a buff dude, basically?
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, like, I can't go be a cop. I
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: can't go be a Marine. Like, that won't work. That
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: won't do.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: A career in gay sex work. It feels transgressive to Davin.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: His way of giving the finger to toxic masculinity, which
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: he believes his dad got trapped by. So Davin decides
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: to start an OnlyFans. In case you're not familiar, OnlyFans
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: is for porn. what Patreon is for podcasts, or Substack
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: for newsletters. It's a site for creators. Anyone over 18
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: can start an OnlyFans page, and then people pay performers
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: directly to see their content, mainly explicit photos and videos.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: It's direct, it's legal, and it lets people like Davin
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: work independently from home. What I learned from Davin is
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: how important Instagram, obviously a totally separate platform from OnlyFans
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: and much more mainstream... how important it can be for
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: an adult performer like him as a marketing tool. Because
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I guess OnlyFans doesn't have a For You page that
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: recommends other accounts you might be interested in following the
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: way apps like Instagram and TikTok do. So in order
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: to build an audience, Davin would use his account on Instagram,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: which has much broader reach, as an advertisement to drive
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: followers over to his OnlyFans page, which is where they
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: could pay to get more explicit photos of him. Instagram
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: has guidelines about how graphic you can be So the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: posts there are teases.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: You couldn't post like full nudity, but like you figure
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: out how to be like playful and like, you know, cheeky.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I could just like post pictures of like ass out
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: on Instagram. And it was crazy, like the amount of
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: traffic I was getting. It was pretty easy. But yeah,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: really basic concept. It's like the more followers I can get,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: the more eyes that are going to be on, you know,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: this link.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: A link from Instagram over to OnlyFans. This business model,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: using clever posts on Insta for free to advertise his
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: paid OnlyFans. It allows Davin to build a business pretty fast.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I was probably making like three, four grand on an
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: OnlyFans page.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: That's three or four grand a month. How much are
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: you working? Is it a 40-hour-a-week gig I mean, shoot.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: I was just taking dick pics, dude. I wasn't particularly
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: working a lot.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: And he's doing it without a boss. It's his business.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: He's in control. OnlyFans takes a cut, but he's working
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: when he wants, weight training when he wants. By this point,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Devin has left Wyoming. He's living in Idaho. Things are
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: going pretty well. He's got a girlfriend. He's built up
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: about 100,000 followers on Instagram, a legit audience. And then, suddenly,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: as if with the flick of a switch.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Literally, shit just started getting pulled down. Like, things just
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: started getting pulled down. They'd be like, we're going to
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: ban your account if you keep doing this.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: And then.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: And that happened kind of abruptly? Abruptly, yeah. Like, abruptly.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Little did Devin know, some decisions had been made in D.C.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: that were about to dramatically affect his life. On April 11, 2018,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: in his first term, President Trump signed a new bill
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: into law.
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: Thank you very much for being with us today as
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: we sign this crucial legislation to combat online sex trafficking
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: and bring criminals to justice.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: It was called FOSTA-SESTA, the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: That's the FOSTA. And Stop Enabling Sex Trafficking Act, SESTA.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Two bills, one from the House, one from the Senate,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: mushed into one. The legislation was Congress's response to years
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: of anger over sites like Backpage.com. Backpage was a classified
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: ad site where people advertised sexual services, stripping, escorting. But
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: traffickers used it to advertise prostitution, including of minors. In 2014,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: a group of women who'd been trafficked as kids sued Backpage.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: They said the company knew what was happening and even
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: gave traffickers tools to cover it up. But multiple courts
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: blocked the women's case.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: The reason?
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Section 230. Judges said the allegations were horrifying, but ruled
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: that the law still shielded Backpage from being liable for
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: content posted by its users, even when those users were
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: regularly sex traffickers. People were outraged, including members of Congress,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: like Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio.
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: The Communications Decency Act is a well-intentioned law. It was
• 12:11
  Speaker 6: originally enacted back in 1996. when the internet was in
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: its infancy.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Senator Portman and others wanted to change Section 230. For
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the first time, they would strip the immunity from lawsuits
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: away from platforms if they knowingly helped sex traffickers.
• 12:27
  Speaker 6: It's past time we update this 21-year-old law for the
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: 21st century and allow victims who have had their most
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: basic human rights violated get justice against those who facilitated
• 12:37
  Speaker 6: these crimes.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: There were other parts of the law, too, not directly
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: related to Section 230. that were aimed at making it
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: easier to go after sites criminally when they enabled sex traffickers.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: It's the kind of law that seems like a no-brainer
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: on the surface. Who doesn't want to stop sex trafficking,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: give victims some recourse? It passed overwhelmingly in the House.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: In the Senate, only two lawmakers voted against it. Some
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: legal experts warned Congress that changing Section 230 in this
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: way would lead to unintended consequences, that platforms wouldn't just
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: target traffickers. They'd overcorrect, go after lots of other speech
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: that was totally legal but sex-adjacent, and that this could
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: put sex workers in more danger. And that did happen.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I could no longer post my butt cheeks.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Davin wasn't clocked into the debate over Section 230 happening
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: in Washington. He didn't tune into the signing of FOSTA-SESTA
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: on C-SPAN. All he knew was that suddenly, Instagram started
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: taking down his booty shots. These were images that, until
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: a day before, Davin says Instagram was not only allowing,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: but encouraging. He says they were boosting these same posts
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: with their algorithm.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: It was very overt. You know, the cute, cheeky pictures
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: would get tons of likes and huge traffic. I was
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: getting huge boosts in followers.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: And then, overnight, censored. Those same photos were blocked. Instagram's
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: terms of service stated that they did not allow, this
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: is a direct quote, Fully nude close-ups of buttocks. And
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: when they started enforcing that with Davin, his traffic plunged.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: I probably went down to like $ 500 to like $ 1, 000. Monthly.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: You're talking monthly here. Yeah, monthly.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: From $ 3, 000 to $ 4, 000 a month pre-2018. Yeah. And then
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Davin's Instagram page was shut down completely. Probably because of
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: this line Instagram added to its policies after FOSTA-SESTA passed.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: We allow for the discussion of sex worker rights advocacy
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: and sex work regulation. We draw the line, however, when
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: content facilitates, encourages, or coordinates sexual encounters or commercial sexual
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: services between adults. Instagram wasn't the only one to react.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: After Fostacesta, Tumblr banned porn, Craigslist shut down its personal section,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: which was being used to advertise sex work. This is
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the Section 230 butterfly effect in action. Congress changed the
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: law in a way that was supposed to hold companies
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: responsible if they were knowingly allowing sex trafficking. But the
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: companies were like, we're not going to risk this. We're
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: going to nix anything that might look like sex trafficking.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: It's just easier and safer for us that way. And
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: so Davin, out in Idaho, suddenly finds that the Instagram
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: account he spent years amassing 100,000 followers on is gone.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: He can no longer use it to advertise his OnlyFans
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: with those cheeky posts. His business is decimated. At that
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: moment when like the money plummeted, how did it affect
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: your life?
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Well, like, like I guess urgency, it's like, what am
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: I going to do? Um, that's when I started, I
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: had to make hard decisions, which I guess that's really
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: the topic of this is like, I had to start
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: making hard decisions cause I didn't have, uh, that ease
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: of income that I saw, uh, that was going to
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: happen for me from just being like a fitness model
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: posting dick pics. And I was like, well, I might
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: have to do To speak to my capacity for insane shit,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: I might have to do harder things now. You know,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I might have to expand my boundaries.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: What expanding his boundaries entailed. After a quick break. Had
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: you done hardcore porn before that?
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: No. No. Okay.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: No.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: With his online business throttled by Instagram, Davin starts looking
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: for other work. He tries out for the WWE, but
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: doesn't make it. He moves to Vegas and gets a
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: spot in Chippendales, but he slips a disc in his
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: back and has to stop dancing. He still wants to
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: work in the sex industry. He feels it suits him. Plus,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: he's been able to make more money doing that than
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: he would flipping burgers. He dabbled over the years with
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: some in-person escorting. So he decides, you know, when in Vegas,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: why not try to make a living as a male escort?
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: It was just like, what else am I going to do?
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: You know, what else am I going to do? I'm
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: just going to buy into escorting.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: You're saying it like it was no big deal. Like,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I'll just buy into escorting. How did you feel about it?
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, these are important. You're bringing to light
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: some of my disassociation. Okay. No, this is important where
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: it's like, how did I feel? Yeah, I must have
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: been scared. Yeah, I was. I think I was scared.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Devin's work on the campsite, on Instagram, on OnlyFans, He
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: was always working from the safety of his own apartment.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: In-person escorting is a whole different world, much riskier.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I'm meeting up with random, mostly men. I've had like,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I've had hundreds of men hire me. And I probably
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: had like three women. But so many, many just strange men.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Still makes me uncomfortable. I mean, I'm just meeting with
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: a dude, you know, and I didn't know really how
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: shit worked. I'm like, is this guy a cop? Most
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: of the time they're like scared and they think I'm
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: a cop, right? Like, you know, you meet up with
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: them and like, I was less like yatted at that point.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: So I didn't have the face tattoo. I just looked
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: like jarheaded.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: And is it kind of a gray area of legality
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: or not? What's happening?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, like you try to like talk around
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: like what's actually happening, like in these messages. And I
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: knew better at this point too. I started taking people
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: off Instagram. So I'd like send them to like a
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: burner number. Because even in the DMs and Instagram, they'll
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: flag you for solicitation. So I'd be like, oh, yeah,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: you're interested in this service. You can talk with me here. Oh,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: you want to meet up? That's how I started advertising.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: It was like, oh, you can do paid meetups. You
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: can meet up with me. Because nothing illegal about meeting up.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: These kinds of escorting gigs can range from simple companionship,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: going with somebody to see Les Mis, to sex. But
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: there's no real vetting process. Devin is flying by instinct.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: And before we go any further, it's important to say,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: FOSTA-SESTA was responding to real harm. People were being trafficked online,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: children included. According to federal authorities, Backpage.com made $ 500 million
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: in prostitution-related income. Section 230 had prevented victims from getting
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: compensation for Backpage by suing them. The mother of one
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: of these victims, Yvonne Ambrose, gave searing testimony to senators
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: about what happened to her daughter, Desiree.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: Desiree was a good person who just wanted to be
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: loved and accepted by all. She was only 16 years
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: old and just wanted to make friends. We now know
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: that adult men found Desiree on social media, reached out
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: to her, pressured her, and used her to make money.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: She was preyed on and sold online by pimps who
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: took advantage of her. On December 23rd, 23, 2016, a
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: 32-year-old man by the name of Antonio Rosales was looking
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: through Backpage.com for a child to have a sex with.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: Just like countless others before him, they knew that this
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: was a website that they could go to to engage
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: in sex with minors. During his search, he came upon
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: a picture of my 16-year-old daughter. Desiree was driven to
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Antonio's residence by the pimp with the intent of having
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: sex with this 32-year-old man, a man twice her age.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: This was the last night.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Of my daughter's life.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: The man murdered Desiree?
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: The truth is Backpage.com and other sites are making millions
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: of dollars by exploiting our children. I struggle to believe
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: that a loving and talented girl such as Desiree is
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: gone from this earth because an act such as 230
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: allowed the Internet to exploit her. And now Section 230
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: is standing in a way of justice for my child
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: and other Jane Doe's out there like her.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: As FOSTA-SESTA was being passed, the government shut down Backpage
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and prosecuted its founders and executives. One was convicted of
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a money laundering count and sentenced to five years in prison.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Another died by suicide before his trial. Two others cooperated
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: for lighter sentences, pleading guilty to conspiracy to facilitate prostitution.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: The DOJ also set up a $ 200 million compensation fund
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: for victims. They didn't need FOSTA-SESTA to do this, to
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: go after the company criminally. But now, because of FOSTA-SESTA,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: victims of sex trafficking can directly sue websites, like Backpage,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: that are used to exploit them. And there have been
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: lawsuits like this. But so far, they have not resulted
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: in some huge victory for victims. There have been no
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: big winds of damages. Judges seem confused by how to
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: interpret FOSTA-SESTA, honestly, which critics say was poorly written. Meanwhile,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: some cops have complained... that it actually got harder to
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: do investigations into sex trafficking under FOSTA-SESTA, that they'd been
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: using Backpage as a trap for catching human traffickers and pimps.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And now that activity is harder to uncover. And it
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: also made it more difficult for many sex workers, Davin included,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: to make a living, putting them in more dangerous, real-life situations.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: One time, a client Davin met online flew him to Florida.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: This guy just seemed weird, but he was going to
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: give me Probably only like, probably like two grand or something.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: But I was like, I need two grand. So I
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: flew to Florida and this guy, he had like, he
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: had strange energy about him. He seemed generally anxious and
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: maybe had very, I think he had very conservative politics,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: which is also always like kind of unsettling when it's
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: like a gay closeted man with like you know, super
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: conservative politics. He flies me down there. And so I'm
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: just uncomfortable. And he wants me to sleep on top
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: of him the whole night. Okay. That's like his thing.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: He's like, I just want to feel the pressure of
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: you on top of me the whole night. So like,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I'm sleeping. I'm like laying on this dude. And I'm like,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: you know what? I think I'm having a panic attack. Oh,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: so I stand up and I'm like, Hey, I'll just
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: be back in a minute. And I go sit on
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: his couch and he comes out like fuming pissed off
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: that like, that I've like, stopped laying on top.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Of him oh wow and he's like i paid.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: For you to do this he's like i paid for
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: you flew your ass out here like what are you
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: doing quote for quote he said you could be fucking
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: digging ditches somewhere and you're getting paid money to come
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: fucking sleep on me and now you're acting like this
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: and i'm like man like i'm like i'm you know
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: like what can i say brother like i'm doing my
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: best and he's like screaming at me get the fuck out.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Why do you think you had a panic attack I think.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: There's a general discomfort and, you know, yeah, I just
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: wasn't feeling safe.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Devin ends up wandering out into a rainstorm in Florida,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: calling a friend to book him a flight home. After
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Googling the man and seeing he was a retired cop,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: he sent him his deposit back. There were other bizarre
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and harrowing experiences.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I had this like, like one percenter ass, like super
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: fucking wealthy Chinese businessman that hired me To be his
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: pet bodybuilder, a champion pet bodybuilder. So he starts paying
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: me a monthly stipend. It was like three and a
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: half thousand dollars, which isn't like a ton of money,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: but it was to see him twice a month. So
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, like that's nice and easy. You know,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: on paper, but essentially he wanted like a BDSM slave
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: that was also winning fucking bodybuilding shows.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Devin actually had to negotiate this arrangement down. He says
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: at first the guy wanted to pay him five figures
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: a month to be at his beck and call 24-7
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: to keep himself in tip-top shape, compete in bodybuilding competitions,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: and then come be his BDSM submissive whenever the guy wanted.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: But Davin wasn't comfortable with that. The first time Davin
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: shows up at this businessman's house, another guy, not the client,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: answers the door. Davin has no idea who he is.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: He's walking into this stranger's house all alone, trying to
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: quickly figure out, am I safe? Who's this other dude?
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: What's the relationship here? He would come to learn this
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: other guy was like a kept man, had lived with
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the businessman for years. Part of what's particularly challenging with
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: in-person escorting and BDSM jobs in particular, Devin's in other
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: people's houses trying to quickly assess if he can trust them,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: if he's safe.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: You're in his house, his private home, and he's like
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: torturing me in his little dungeon. I've like shared my
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: location with some people, I guess, but I'm like still
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: weird situation tied up in some random man's home. So yeah,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a level of danger there.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: This is the kind of thing Devin found himself doing
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: over and over again, both with this man and many
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: other clients, to get by. During this time, Devin saw
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: other adult performers and sex workers complaining about similar problems.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: A 2021 Columbia Human Rights Law Review study found that
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Internet companies restricted more content than was probably necessary to
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: avoid liability under FOSTA-SESTA. which drove sex workers to more
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: dangerous situations and got rid of support systems they had
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: previously had online. Because of this, some sex workers became
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: serious advocates for Section 230. Here's a former dominatrix being
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: interviewed at a protest in L.A. She had been making
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: a living teaching BDSM classes online.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: All my classes were taken down.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: I was kicked off a bunch of sites.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: So in my 50s, I had to go back to
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: doing sex work because of the spill.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: And this is an OnlyFans creator. doing a live conversation
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: about the impact of FOSTA-SESTA.
• 26:52
  Speaker 7: It's getting harder and harder and harder for sex workers
• 26:55
  Speaker 7: to survive online, who are already basically kicked off everywhere.
• 26:58
  Speaker 7: We're shadow banned on Instagram. We get banned on TikTok for, like, breathing.
• 27:01
  Speaker 7: We can't even say OnlyFans on TikTok. We're banned.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Davin was not so plugged into the advocacy scene. He
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: wasn't read up on Section 230. He just heard there
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: was some government push to go after sex trafficking, and
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the tech companies changed their policies because of it.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: All I... new is that it changed the terms and
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: use of like these social media pages that was my understanding.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: No more ass cheeks because of this law basically.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: No more ass cheeks no more ass cheeks which yeah
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: i'm like what does this have to do with sex
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: trafficking you fuckers.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: And then did you dig into it more was there
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: a curiosity there or you're just kind of like.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Um yeah i mean i dug into it a little
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: bit but you know a lot of it over my
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: head um and a lot of it i think there's
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: so much of like I don't know, a lot of
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: it feels very disingenuous because there's a lot of just
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: like theological bullshit that comes in that where people are like, oh,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: this is a good time for us to, you know,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: to attack smut.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: There's one last turn in Devin's story. He wanted to
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: do less in-person escorting. So he starts trying to rebuild
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: his Instagram audience on a new account. He's doing his
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: best to follow the new rules, keep his posts within
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: the guidelines. But in the post-Fostacesta world, His content's not
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: traveling like it used to. He says the algorithm's no
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: longer recommending him to new users. He's just reaching the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: same people who already follow him. He's convinced he's being
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: shadow banned.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: The way these shadow bans work, you're viewable by your
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: current following. You just can't really build a new following.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: So in order to get around that, you're like, OK,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: we need to access other people's followings.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: That is, get his content in front of followers on
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: other accounts. And the way to do that on Instagram
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: these days is with collab posts. Collab posts are when
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: you and another account jointly put up a grid post,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: and it gets fed to all of your combined followers.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: After FOSTA-SESTA, Davin realizes this is what he needs to
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: do to get in front of new people, collaborate on
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: posts with other adult performers.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I would go to West Hollywood, and we'd film a
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: porn scene, and then we would advertise that porn scene
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: on Instagram in like, you know, coy ways. Be like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I would always joke, I'd be like, we filmed a
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: kissing documentary, you know, like that kind of thing.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: So the porn itself is not on Instagram. That wouldn't fly.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Just the coy ad for it in the form of
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: a collab post with the other performer. And then if
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: you go over to OnlyFans, that's where you can buy
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: the kissing documentary. That's how Davin and the other performers
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: make money. Had you done hardcore porn before that?
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: No.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: No. Okay. No.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Before, on his OnlyFans, Davin only posted pics and videos
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: of him alone, not having sex with other people. So
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: before you could be solo, you could be like a
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: solo performer.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: And then just the change in the algorithm forced you.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: Like to kind of cunningly do collaborations, which in your work,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: a collaboration means porn.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Like hardcore porn.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what happened. I started doing hardcore porn
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: as a result of that.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Does that feel safer than like these in-person meetups?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. You know, that was a
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: safe way to make money. It just came with like
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: the implications of doing hardcore gay porn. I guess that's something,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I hesitated to do for a while. Probably
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: due to social stigma.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Devin gets to a place co-releasing these porn videos with
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: other performers where he's making more money than he was
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: before FOSTA-SESTA was passed. Sometimes 10K a month.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: He says.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: But still, he backs away from it. He'd been reluctant
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to do hardcore porn. He only tried it because he
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: felt he had to after FOSTA-SESTA if he wanted to
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: make a living again online. He'll still do it once
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: in a while, he says, but these days he's mostly
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: getting by bartending at a Vegas go-go bar and doing
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: in-person work again, though he's much more choosy.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I guess over the years I've accumulated a client base,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: like a roster that's really easy. So I honestly mostly
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: do like massage, like guys hire me just to do massage.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I don't really do anything overtly sexual. I'll do some
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: like pro-doming stuff. They'll hire me to like yell at them,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: you know, and like, Hit them and then go out
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: to dinners. So I do a lot of that. I
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: do a lot of what's called boyfriend experience, where it's
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: not even overtly sexual, but people just want to banter
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: with me. They've enjoyed me from my years of porn.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: They enjoyed me from my presence online writing about masculinity.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: So guys will hire me for that still.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: If you feel a little confused about what to take
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: away from Davin's story, I get it. Me too. The
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: change to Section 230 definitely messed with his life. His
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: work got harder and riskier for a while. Then he
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: found a way to safely make more money than he
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: was before the change. But it was doing hardcore porn,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: something he wouldn't have previously said yes to. Now things
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: have kind of leveled out. There's not a clean takeaway.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: And I don't think there's a clean takeaway from the
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Fostacesta story either. The law is convoluted. It ties together
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: civil and criminal laws and tech law. and a web
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: of state sex trafficking statutes. It was meant to help
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: sex trafficking victims, but in its seven-plus years, it appears
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: to have been used once, criminally, to go after a
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: website for sex trafficking. Victims are using it to sue companies,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: and they're getting further than they would have before. But still,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: the success rate there is not good. Victims' cases still
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: get tossed out or appealed or stalled. People point to
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the Backpage shutdown as a win for FOSTA-SESTA, But legally,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: the government didn't use FOSTA-SESTA to do that. And shutting
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: down Backpage may have made it harder for law enforcement
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: to stop sex trafficking. It's confusing. Davin agrees. When I
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: asked him, what do you make of this whole situation?
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Congress was trying to help sex trafficking victims. But in
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: doing that, they messed with your life. He says it
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: kind of knots up his brain.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Like, what can I do other than be a voice
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: that's like, sex trafficking is bad, obviously. Um, sex work
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: means for people to make money. Good.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: You know, this is going to sound like a callous question,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: but I'm asking it just anticipating the variety of people
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: who might listen to this. Why should we care that
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: it's harder for you to do sex work?
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: I think it all comes back to poverty. People should
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: be concerned about the poor and people who have had
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to make, you know, hard choices to make money. And that,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: that would be me or sex workers.
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And this is who that's affecting is people who could
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: otherwise not make comfortable living wages otherwise. If you fundamentally
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: have an issue with sex work, then I think you
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: have to address the issue of poverty.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: As I've seen one Section 230 expert put it, when
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: it comes to these policy choices about the Internet, everyone
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: has unavoidable major downsides. Where you come down on it
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: depends on what you think is the least worst option,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: as he puts it. Some people think Section 230 is
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the least worst option. That what happened with FOSTA-SESTA is
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: proof that changing Section 230 is always doomed. But I
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: don't buy that. This was one specific and, yes, flawed attempt.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: People were hurt. It doesn't change the fact that Section
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: 230 is still shielding a ton of bad behavior. I
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: believe there are ways to learn from this experience. and
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: do better the next time. And to do that, you
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: have to talk to all sorts of people who could
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: be affected by changes to these policies, especially people who
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: may not be top of mind for policymakers in Washington,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: like yatted dudes playing Battlefield in shitty apartments in Wyoming.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: We're continuing the debate over Section 230 and life on
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: the Internet over on our Substack. That's at questioneverything.substack.com. You
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: can join our chat there, leave me a comment, write me.
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  Speaker 1: There are a bunch of pushes right now to regulate
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: the Internet in different ways. Just this week, you may
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: have seen the Senate unanimously passed a bill that would
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  Speaker 1: help victims of intimate deepfakes sue the people who make them.
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  Speaker 1: That's a big one. We'll keep digging into these efforts.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Please rate and review us on Apple or Spotify and
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  Speaker 1: share it with a friend. Today's show was produced by
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  Speaker 1: Sam Egan and edited by our managing editor, Kevin Sullivan.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Robin Semien and I are the executive producers of Question Everything.
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  Speaker 1: Our team also includes producers Sophie Kazis and Zach St. Louis,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: contributing editors Neil Drumming and Jen Kinney, and associate producer
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Kevin Shepard. Additional editing by Zoe Chase. This episode was
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: fact-checked by Annika Robbins, mixed and sound designed by Brendan Baker.
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  Speaker 1: Our music is by Matt McGinley. Thanks to our partners
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: at KCRW, who include Arnie Seipel, Tejal Ajmera, Natalie Hill,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and Jennifer Farrow. We'll see you next week.